Chuck Bryant
Appearances
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
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Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
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Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
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Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah, they were like, we did a pyramid scheme. We're good at selling things that don't exist. So they enlisted a little bit of help. They got Chris's brother, John Haney, on the team. And then a guy named Ed Warner, who was a friend, who's a corporate attorney. And they formed the Horn Abbott Company. Haney's nickname was the Horn.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
And Abbott, in this case with one T, was just a variation on Abbott's two-T name. And they started selling equity to raise a little money through friends and family. So they sold 40 shares at $1,000 each to 32 friends and family members. And, boy, you want to talk about an investment that paid off.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Wow. Can you imagine? It'd be like one of the early like Apple stock or Google stock.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah. So they managed to raise $40,000. They got a $75,000 line of credit from a bank. And that was enough dough to start getting this game together in earnest. The one thing they didn't have, they had design. They had it kind of all ready to go. They needed 6,000 questions. And so I assume with some of that. What is that like close to 120 grand?
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
They went to Spain in 1981 and they said, we're going to go drink beer on the beach and write questions. We're going to pack a bunch of, you know, dictionaries and encyclopedias and and reference books and newspapers. And we're going to. Go out there. We're going to write it for the American audience. Some of this stuff is going to be pretty obscure stuff.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Some is going to be, you know, some are going to be a little easier. They wanted to kind of give it a little bit of variety. And finally, in November 81, registered Trivial Pursuit as a trademark and then launched the genus, not genius edition. That same month is when that came out.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
I think there's someone behind you with a giant Y like dancing up and down.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Oh, no, no, no, no. So Toy Fair people were not too interested at first, at least. They got passed on from the bigs, Parker Brothers and Milton Bradley at the time, saying this is a really expensive game to produce. And I mean, that's something we learned a lot about and doing the stuff you should know version is like, Cost of production is obviously a big deal.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
I just never we were like, you know, what if those pieces were like copper or something? They're like, no, they're going to be punch out cardboard. But you guys are sweet.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah. You know, Monopoly has all those solid lead figurines. They're like, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
And not to knock the team we worked with because they were great and the game turned out great. It's just how you make a game to make money.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah, it was pro top to bottom enthusiasm. Just a sheer pleasure.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
All right, so enough of that kissing up. They got about 1,100 games made, sold them to local retailers, regional Canadian retailers, basically, right before Christmas. And then this distributor of games, Chieftain Products, Very smartly, we're like, hey, we'll put this thing together.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
My daughter, supposedly the vice president's daughter, really, really loved the game when she went away for a weekend and played it a lot. And it ended up being a great decision for them as well.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah. Oh, I think they're officially wedges.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah, it was incredible. They were making everything in Canada at the time except for the dice. 3,500 games a day, but they still couldn't keep up with the pace. In 1983, finally, a U.S. company called Selcho and Richter, I guess, or Reiter?
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Reiter? Yeah. They licensed that game. They had real marketing money. Finally, they sold one point three million games in 1983 with that company. And one thing we haven't mentioned is this game was about double the cost of what a board game was at the time. Twenty five to 40 bucks, depending on where you went. That's up to ninety dollars today.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Well, either way, let's settle at $110. Okay, great, perfect. But either way, that was about double the cost of a board game, so it was no small thing to plunk down that kind of money on this big, heavy, voluminous game.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah, and it was – I mean it said for adults on the box, which turned out to be a stroke of genius because I even remember – I read an article in Slate that kind of drove this home. But I even remember kind of agreeing with what Slate was saying, which was like as a kid in the 80s, especially for kids in the 80s who had like narcissistic parents who didn't show them much attention –
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
It was if you could play Trivial Pursuit and hang, it was a chance to sit at the adult table for a minute.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
And to like interact with your parents for an hour a day.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah. Hey, you throw a little money on it, you never know. Exactly.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah, I played this game a lot when I was a kid. It was a family favorite. My mom really, really loved it. We were often a team together, my mom and I, so it's kind of one of my good childhood memories with her.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah, for sure. They had great marketing early on with this new company. There was a marketing consultant they hired named Linda Pisano. who would send these games out to celebrities who were featured in questions in the game. And she got letters back from some of them, and she would publish those. She got letters from Pat Boone, Gregory Peck, and James Mason. The trio.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
The boomers are just going nuts. And then, to really drive it home. There was a Time magazine report that the cast of The Big Chill, the most boomer movie of all boomers, movies of all time, were unwinding between scenes, enjoying trivial pursuit and looking back at the nostalgia of their younger days. And that's it was that was peak boomer nostalgia, trivial pursuit reporting.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Oh, that's funny. Well, that movie was very big in my house and that soundtrack. I mean, I joke about it now, but that's literally the thing that introduced me to Motown.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
As a kid. Yeah. Listening to I was 12 years old or whatever it was. Listen to Aretha Franklin and the Four Tops and, you know, everyone else. Jeremiah was a bullfrog, which wasn't Motown. But if you want to hear a more in-depth conversation about that. You can listen to the Movie Crush episode featuring the wonderful and charming Janie Haddad Tompkins.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
That was her pick. Nice. Good movie, though. But now it suffers from anti-boomeritis.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
All right. So 1984. Well, I guess we should mention that book in 1983. A guy named Robert J. Heller wrote a book called How to Win at Trivial Pursuit. Like that's how big it got. I think like 96 trivia games trying to cash in on Trivial Pursuit's success and people writing books like How to Win at Trivial Pursuit in which Robert J. Heller said, why don't you just memorize all 6,000 cards?
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Well, that's the only thing Reagan I can do is the one word.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
What was one of them authorized to do so? Or are they just like, come over here, buddy, sign this thing?
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
I'm glad I complicated that very clean and cool story. Another fun little trivial factoid, and yes, I'm saying factoid, was that QE2, Queen Elizabeth II, hosted the first nerd cruise, it sounds like, because she hosted an eight-day Trivial Pursuit tournament cruise in, I guess, 85.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah, I think they're at about 80 million to date.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
That's just a staggering amount of games. I mean, you talked about how well it was made. My mom still has the OG from whatever 48 beers ago.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
No, you can still read Richard Nixon on a third of those cards.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Oh, not in my family, pal. So Trivial Pursuit is selling gangbusters. Abbott and Haney are rich dudes and also weirdly kind of celebrities. They were not shy. They love to be on TV and to do interviews. They were in TV commercials. They were pitchmen for other brands like Amex and Diet Coke. And they would put that Trivial Pursuit branding on anything they thought they could make money of.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
And like you mentioned, those original investors did really, really well. There was an entertainment writer at the Toronto Globe and Mail named Susan, Susan Farrier McKay, who took out a bank loan to buy 10 shares early on. And in 1984, she bought a house and then she retired not too long after that.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah, I mean, I was a 12-year-old who learned about Gunsmoke and Richard Nixon through playing Trivial Pursuit.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah, there were two cases, at least like two notable court cases. One was a lawsuit in 1994 from a guy, an Australian named David Wall, who said, hey, in 1979, this Chris Haney guy picked me and my buddy up when we were hitchhiking and we were in Nova Scotia. And while we were driving around, I told him about this idea for the game.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Like, really specifically, like, my mom has pictures of the wheel that I drew and the pie pieces and everything. And the court were like, well, where are those documents? And he was like, I don't have those anymore. And they said, well, bring forward some witnesses. And he was like, no one – No one's really coming forward. They moved. Yeah, they moved away.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Haney said or he said that Haney later offered him shares like, hey, man, we're getting this game that you got told me the idea for going and I'm going to offer to buy you shares. This is a real thing. He refused. Had he bought those shares, he would have ended up a rich person as well. But in court, Haney was like, I never met this guy, never picked him up.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
uh they awarded him initially um well not awarded him he got zero dollars but uh the judge ruled in haney's favor and awarded them 1.2 million dollars in court costs this is after a 13-year legal battle but they reduced that to 1 million because they said uh but you know what your big corporate attorneys came in and sued two of his witnesses so we're gonna knock off uh 200 grand and just make it a million
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
But I mean, he had a hard he didn't have the million bucks. I saw that. So they said they were looking to garnish his wages. And I was like, man, this is from bad to worse.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah. What I was trying to find out was they, you know, they said they sued two. First, the judge said there was no witnesses. Then I find out that they had sued two of the witnesses, which they considered like, you know, witness intimidation or something.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
So I'm wondering if one of those witnesses they sued was like the friend that hitchhiked with them. And I'm just I couldn't find anything out. It's so hard to find out stuff about old court cases.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
He did. And that that, well, it didn't bear fruit, but it played out in his favor. It was a question on Columbo, the TV show with what's his name? Peter Falk. Peter Falk. I almost said Robert Blake. I used to get those confused.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah, he's he's the one who murdered his wife in real life. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, Peter Falk did not murder his wife, as far as I know. But he he was Frank Colombo. And in the question, it was the answer was Philip Colombo. Like, what was Colombo's real name? And, you know, I don't know if anywhere else Philip Colombo had ever been printed. So it looked like pretty good proof to me.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
He sued for 300 million bucks, claimed that close to 1700 of the questions were his questions. And a judge threw it out and said, first of all, this game is a lot different than that book. And at which time Worth should have said, that's not what I'm saying. And then he said, but you can't copyright facts.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
No case, which I officially feel bad for Worth because it seems clear to me that they took a lot of his questions.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Boy, do you think there are any Columbo pet ants?
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
So the 90s are now upon us. And these guys are, they said they feel like rock stars, basically. They've got all kinds of money. Supposedly, John Haney, the brother that was brought in early on, they were talking about finances. And he said, we'll be great as long as we don't do anything stupid like invest in racehorses. So that's just what they did. Haney and Abbott invested in racehorses.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
But for Abbott, it paid off. He spent 50 grand on a yearling named Charlie Bailey that ended up winning about $900,000 in total purses over the years.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
And they both invested in kind of built from the ground up these two golf courses in Canada. And Abbott bought, he was a big hockey guy, so he bought the Brampton Battalion at the time before moving them north. And changing their name. And they are from the Ontario Hockey League. And I think he might still own them. Oh, yeah, I think so. I mean, this article I found was from the late 20 teens.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah. I don't see why he would have sold it.
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The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
They were Brampton and now they're North Bay.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah. Quiz shows were for sure big. I think, you know, Olivia helped us with this. And I always kind of wondered about the word trivial because I thought that was a pretty genius. And we'll get to the name change because initially this was called Trivia Pursuit and a lot of people called it Trivia Pursuit.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah, for sure. It was a lot of writing. He said that he used the dictionary of 20th century world politics, pop culture magazines. As his story goes, when he needed Rambo questions, he watched all the Rambo movies two times to come up with the best questions. And, you know, once you write them, they did. I think he had a partner.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
They had some researchers on the team and they would fact check and do corrections and tweaks and stuff like that.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
As far as the nitty gritty goes, questions have a maximum of 45 characters. They prefer two lines, even though there can be three. They just visually thought the two line questions look better. So they tried to edit them down when possible.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
But the change to trivial, I don't know, there was just something that made it a little cheeky.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Was the first question, how long did the fame people think they were going to live?
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
I couldn't have been as these additions weren't as big, though, right? There's no way.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
You know... I it's some of those versions are definitely not my thing, but I'm not going to say it lost its way. I disagreed with that guy. And like, if you want a Harry Potter edition, that's your jam. Then like, I love it. Sure. In fact, I wouldn't mind a friend's edition now that I'm thinking of it. I did today.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
The Friends edition, I think, would be kind of fun for me or Seinfeld edition because I know those pretty well. But I did today buy the Greatest Hits edition, which is mainly 80s and 90s and a lot of pop culture. And supposedly that's like a Gen X feast. So I bought that today and hopefully I'll be getting it very soon.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah. God. We could probably write a Seinfeld edition. You and I could.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah, I guess so. But I thought it mattered. When I was a kid, I was now that I'm adult, I'm like trivia pursuits, kind of a fun name. When I was a kid, I was like, this is not trivia. These are facts and figures. Right. It was weird.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah. You got anything else? I got nothing else. I'm looking forward to playing. You know, I do have to say, I think I tried to play the original Genis. Sometime in the last like five or six years. It's been a minute, but I remember it didn't feel like it held up that well. And that's that's probably due to the fact that it was written in the 80s and it was geared toward boomers.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Well, just, you know, questions about Gunsmoke and Richard Nixon and over and over and over.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
No, no, no, no, not like that. It just felt a little dated question-wise. Mm-hmm. Like, hey, I mean, supposedly the master's edition is the one I think the gamer ranked in 2021 and a listicle. And the gamer said that the 2021 master edition was the best edition yet. But that classic edition has sold the lion's share of those 80 million versions.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Hey guys, love your September episode on the history of music streaming. I grew up in the 90s. I can vividly remember being at my friend Ross's house, downloading Weezer songs off of Napster and burning pirated versions onto CD-Rs.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
As the title suggests, I'm an active musician now, and I wanted to take a quick moment and give a shout out to the music streaming platforms that didn't end up in the episode, like Bandcamp and SoundCloud. Oh, yeah. I feel bad we didn't mention these, and we just kind of went with the big corporate monoliths.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
As an independent artist, especially like how Bandcamp allows us to promote shows, discover, connect with other musicians directly, and the ability to customize the look and copy on our releases page. It's made getting gigs and connecting with other indie bands so much easier. I also found it interesting how the preferred medium of the day has informed their choices when releasing music.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
In the 90s, albums were so much longer. He says, I'm looking at you smashing pumpkins. Because a lone CD could hold more than a vinyl LP or cassette. Today, there is so much music available at our fingertips. Musicians are releasing shorter albums, digital mixtapes, and a steady stream of albumless singles, all in an attempt to stay relevant and capture fleeting attention spans of listeners.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
I'm curious to see what happens over the next decade. Thanks for your time and years of parasocial education and entertainment. This is from Chris in Seattle, and we actually met and hung out with Chris. When? Many, many years ago in Seattle. He was a friend of our booking agent, at least at the time, Josh Lindgren. Well, he's still our booking agent.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
They were friends at the time, as far as I know.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Well, I don't know. I just didn't ask. I was going to text Lindgren and ask if he knew him, but he came to the Neptune show, and I even rode in a car with him with Emily to some after party we went to.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah, for sure. So pub quizzes were big in England before they were a big deal in the United States where we call it just bar trivia, I guess. But they kind of hit it big earlier on. So the world of trivia was gaining steam through the 1960s. I think there was a Columbia student named Edwin Goodgold, who I think he wrote a book, right?
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah, exactly. And that was the mid 60s. The mid 70s is when the pub quizzes really took off in England. That didn't start in the U.S. till really after Trivial Pursuit. There was a time even where the TV show Jeopardy was not on the air because, like you said, there was just a waxing and waning on interest in trivia.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
But Jeopardy came back in 84 and all of a sudden, you know, trivia started to be important in the United States again.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah. And this is our pick. We kind of had a hard time deciding this year, but actually not really. It was a toss up. But we always do like a Christmas, you know, legendary Christmas gifts and pop culture history kind of episode.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
And this year we went with Tribute Pursuit because it was a big, you know, they as you'll see that, you know, rolling out a board game in October and November is a pretty smart move.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah, they were a couple of hockey dudes. Just hockey, beer drinking, Canadian, good old fashioned Canadian hockey playing. Or at least hockey watching. I bet they played too. They all played.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah, Haney was a high school dropout. Abbott did have a master's degree in journalism from University of Tennessee. And he was living with Haney and his wife, Sarah, in their apartment in Montreal at the time. And as the legend goes... They're hanging out one day. It was kind of rainy. They were like, hey, let's play some Scrabble. They realized they didn't have some Scrabble.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
And then I saw a couple of different versions, kind of inconsequential, like whether or not he just dropped everything and went out and bought a Scrabble or whether just on his next shopping trip he did. But Haney would buy a Scrabble game, bring it back to play and was like, you know what?
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
I bought like six of these things over the years because I just keep losing them or leaving behind or loaning them out or something. And like, what a racket. Like we should get into the gaming business.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Some might say suspiciously quickly. We'll get to that later. But as their story goes, at about 45 minutes time, and they're really specific about that. I never saw anywhere an hour. They always said 45 minutes. They got, you know, the game together. They got some construction paper. They started sketching things out.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
They based the design of the circular board on a ship's wheel with six spokes that corresponded to categories of geography and entertainment. sports and leisure, science and nature, arts and literature, and history. And you would roll the die. You would move in any direction you wanted, as long as it's only one direction. You get this little circular pie crust. with six available pie slots.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Not wedges. And the idea is you go around and you answer questions in the corresponding categories. And when you answer them on the center of each spoke, or I guess the landing point of each spoke, you would get to put in a pie piece. Once you have all those pie pieces in, you roll your way to the center, must have an exact roll.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
And then the other teams decide which category of question they want to randomly ask you. And if you miss, if you make it, you win the game. If you miss it, you got to roll back out and then answer questions and eventually roll back in.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
I mean, were you on a team by yourself? No, no, no, just me. Okay, that's what I was asking. Not literally playing by yourself. Boy, Josh, I mean, oh, never mind.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
No, I want to dwell back on that because 20 minutes, I mean, I played a lot of Trivial Pursuit, and I don't feel like we ever got through a game in less than that standard 45 minutes it took to invent it.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah, exactly. And most of the times it was boomer parents like waxing philosophic about how great their stuff was.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah, so I don't think we mentioned you could have teams. I did sort of allude to that. But you could have, I mean, you could probably have as many people as you want on a team. But I think they suggested max of four, meaning a max of 24 players. And anything more than that would get a little unwieldy. But I feel like we were, and my family wasn't big. It was usually we were in pairs.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah. And as a kid, I do also remember all of my family trying to nab me because I was the only one who really knew much about sports.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
What was your category? Like if you could pick your own final category, what would it be?
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah. I would say sports and leisure or entertainment for me.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
So I mentioned the name change. That was Sarah, who was Haney's wife. Chris Haney's wife, Sarah, is the one that said, no, change it to Trivial instead of Trivia. I think it was a pretty great switch. And I think that's a pretty good intro.
Stuff You Should Know
The Trivial Pursuit Trivia Edition
Yeah. Let's move along to Act Two right after this.