Charles Piller
Appearances
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Science and medicine sometimes have an arrogance problem. They use the idea that trust us or the experts. All across the United States, school buildings sit empty. Unfortunately, that trust has to be won, not just assumed. Often scientists are entrusted with policy decisions for which they have no specific expertise or decisions about how to run things in society.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
I find it so strange that these organizations that put so much emphasis on making sure that they rule out conflicts of interest, that they disclose conflicts of interest, anything that could potentially influence an article's predisposition or ruling thereafter. are so nonchalant about potential fraud that can occur within the same ecosystem.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Is that because they're more worried about the fraud coming out and them being implicated in it? Or is it they have blind trust in the people that they work with?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Well, I think it's a combination of factors. First of all, the regulators and the funders, they identify with the scientists who ask for their money and who are asking them to review and approve drugs. They identify with the companies and with the individual scientists at universities. These are their peers. These are their colleagues.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And so they want to assume the best and also want to give them the benefit of the doubt. That's one thing. Second, I think they are technologically behind the times. They are living a little bit in the past. They haven't realized that the degree to which these problems have increased with the ease with which scientific images can be altered in a relatively seamless way.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
I'm excited to speak with you because a passion of mine in the healthcare space is talking about trust in science, in medicine. When I have a patient sitting across from me, the most important thing that I think about is the doctor-patient alliance. How can we get onto the same page? Because without that level of trust, we technically have nothing.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And it's pretty interesting, um, I think one of the things that to me is the most interesting about this entire state of affairs is that like so many things on the internet, what has happened is that because when institutions don't effectively do their job, there becomes a community of people. who are self-organized and they start to do the job for the institutions. The sleuthing of the world.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
That's right. The, the image sleuths, they like to call themselves often. And these are folks that in their own spare time, because almost no one's making a living doing this. They're just fascinated by the discovery process. Like, you know, a little bit like true crime detectives and they, what they want to do is look at these images and,
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Interestingly, even without understanding the underlying science often, you can just become an expert in understanding whether images might have been altered and using software tools to assist that process. And so in a way, the image sleuths publishing on things like a website called PubPeer, which frames itself as a discussion club for articles, scholarly articles,
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And in fact, what often happens is that it becomes a place where people with concerns about possibly altered images or phony research can post those. And they usually are posted as questions. We're not sure what's going on here, but this doesn't look right to us. Can the authors please respond to this? And I think you'll find that about 90% of the time there's no author response.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
because they usually don't have a good story to tell because these image sleuths are, many of them are quite good at what they do. And they're taking the place of institutional authorities like journals, funders, and regulators who are not doing as good a job at watchdogging these issues.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Do you think that there's a rise in this type of corruption in the scientific world because of the finances involved and how there's been an astronomical rise in the potential money to be made on medications, on discoveries, on breakthroughs? Is that the incentive there?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
I do think it is in cases. Just to be clear again, I think the use of image manipulation to move forward drugs in development, it definitely occurs, but it's not common. There are lots of problems in drug development, as I'm sure many of the people of you are listening to this, really know from their own experience or from observing the news. But in this case, it can be used in that way.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
So let me give you an example. So something I write about a lot in the book is a And they developed an Alzheimer's drug called Simufilam. So it's a funny, generic-sounding name. This drug was meant to be a cure for Alzheimer's, or at least a drug that could show dramatic improvement in cognitive symptoms, which would be an amazing breakthrough.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
So, for the last several years, there have been a series of developments showing that, number one, the basic science studies—these are the studies that are before you get a drug into development. You have these, as you know, basic science studies— that test things in the lab to see if the drug might be relatively safe and relatively effective in people.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
I'm basically a robot saying science words, and if they're not landing, they're not making an impact, I'm not helping. These days, I feel like there's been a tremendous loss of trust in our scientific institutions. A, have you seen that happen? And B, what do you think is leading the way for that to occur?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And then you go through a series of other studies like these so-called phase one studies where it's just testing for safety. You don't want to give someone a drug that might be very harmful. So you test it in a small number of healthy people to pass that bar. And then you go into phase two and phase three trials, which tested in much larger numbers of people for both safety and for effectiveness.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
So this is a company where literally for years it's been shown over and over again that the basic science experiments associated with their drug were apparently based on doctored images. And this was known by the funders, by the FDA, and by the general public because it was written about in the press by myself and many others.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Then, more recently, it was learned that even the clinical experimental data was cherry-picked and changed in its presentation by people within Cassava Sciences. And to make it look like the drawbook was being more effective than it really was in its Phase II studies, this proved to be instrumental in getting the FDA to permit it to go into Phase III studies.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
But all along, the FDA, from its own inspectors, knew that there were problems with these data. They knew from press reports and from whistleblowers that there were problems in the basic science research. Apparently altered images left and right. Many, many examples of this. Even questions about the fundamental scientific idea behind the drug and how it was learned.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
So you have that going on for years, and the FDA didn't step in and stop the trials. Ultimately, quite recently, the company collapsed because they finally had to admit that the phase three trials of their drug failed. the value of the company shrunk by 85% literally in one day.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
I might add that even after one of the important scientists involved with this company was indicted for fraud by the Department of Justice, the US Department of Justice, this almost never happens.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Even after that, even after the company was forced to pay $40 million in fines to the Securities and Exchange Commission, and even after two of the top officers of the company were ousted from their jobs and forbade from becoming officers or directors of companies for years, even after all this, the FDA didn't step in and say, oh, wait, we've got to do something about this.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
They just let the trial run its course. They let thousands of patients take this drug for a long time.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
You have this company that's fraudulently taking, I forgot what, $16 million in NIH grants. Why is the FDA allowing that?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Let me frame the word fraud and what it means. It's a legal term that one has to use carefully because it has to be proven in court. But what I would say is that this company has been shown to engage in behavior that caused federal agencies to step in and really crack down on them in a dramatic way.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Well, I think it's tragic. Myself, as someone who tremendously support scientific research and the wisdom of doctors, truly. It's been very sad to see the decline in public understanding of how important those processes are. I think it's due to a couple things. One is I think there are people in society who are using
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And why hasn't the FDA stopped the trials if that was going on?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
I think there's a kind of complacency in certain ways in which the agency operates. I think also that there is such a desperate hunger and a sense of real desperation in the community of patients and family members who are living with Alzheimer's to have some sort of drug, some sort of remedy that can at least allay some of the worst cognitive symptoms.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
It's very, very hard for the agency to resist the pressure that they're feeling from drug companies, from patient representatives, from the entire world to try to come up with approved drugs that can be used to help solve this terrible problem that we have with Alzheimer's.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
I also don't see how it's valuable to manipulate or create data in the basic sciences step, then do it with the phase one trials when you know at some point the other shoe is going to drop and it would be found out that the medication is not as effective. Are scientists who engage in this type of behavior hoping that
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
maybe getting past the first stage will get them ultimately where they can prove truly that their medicine or treatment works. Do they have true belief in themselves or are they usually full on playing one of these games of let's make as much money as possible?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Yeah, it's tough. I mean, I'm not a psychologist and I don't play one on TV, so I can't really answer for sure what's going on in their minds. But what I can say is that you have a situation where historically it's been pretty easy to get away with falsifying data. And so there are many people who will roll the dice on it and reap the rewards.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And so even in a situation like the one you're describing, again, going back to Cassava Sciences for a moment, what you have is a situation where there was apparent image doctoring going on from the very beginning. apparent flaws in the thinking of this entire process from beginning to end, apparent other kinds of improper activities at the company.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
But even though the drug finally failed, even though it's never going to reach market, even though the company cratered afterwards, over the course of those several years, many years really, that it was under development,
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
The company officers, the scientists, and some of the scientists involved got very rich off of their optimistic appraisal of what might be possible for this drug and reaping the benefits in the stock market absorbance and acceptance and acceptance. promotion of their drug.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
This is, this is a example of something called a meme stock that perhaps some of the listeners are very familiar with, but funny things can happen in the market and the behavior of a stock might be not that closely connected to the real possibilities for what their product is.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
But in this case, it was both a meme stock, but also the stock potential was enhanced by optimistic statements that had ultimately been shown to be based on incorrect data or falsified data.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
You mentioned several times the image manipulation. What exactly are we talking about?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Okay. So let me give you an example that I think is quite common in biological sciences and in Alzheimer's disease in particular. You start out with images of brain tissue. So you want to examine what is going on inside the brain with, say, the effect of a particular drug, or how do you characterize an experiment's effects on brain tissue and
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And of course, with people, with Alzheimer's disease, these are usually samples from people who have died and have donated their body to science. But these images then may not necessarily show what you're trying to show to prove your hypothesis out. But by altering them, you can make the image look more in line with what you're thinking is.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Doctors and some of the medical situations we've been experiencing, such as the pandemic, beat up on institutional authorities like in medicine and for political purposes. And I think that's horrible and unfounded, unwarranted. The second thing is that science and medicine sometimes have an arrogance problem. And they use the idea that trust us or the experts.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Let me give you a sense of how I think it sometimes evolves in the thinking of a scientist. So a scientist might start out being completely straight up and honest and not interested in doing any sort of manipulation and be very, very deeply in...
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Committed to the science.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
So committed in such a state of kind of rapture about their own ideas that they really would love to prove them out. And who among us can really step completely away from that? People become absorbed in their thinking and, you know, want to be right. And especially with something for which so many people are hoping that they might be right about, say, a new drug or a new experiment.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And so what you might have is a stepwise process where, first of all, what these scientists might be thinking is, well, I'm just going to make this image look a little bit better. I'm going to make it look prettier, and it'll have more curb appeal for journal editors who...
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Like everyone else are susceptible to looking at more perfect looking images, even in the scientific sense that maybe most lay people aren't going to know the difference between a better looking or worse looking slice of brain tissue imagery. But scientists know what they're looking for and what they're looking at.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
So you could say that maybe that isn't misconduct, it's maybe frowned upon, but it's something that can prove to be acceptable in the scientific process. Or at least people get away with it so often, and it's kind of like a misdemeanor, you might say. Then they might think, well...
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
I know that my experiment is correct, and there's a little bit of evidence for it in the scientific images that were generated, but it's not really crystal clear. I'm just going to sharpen it up a little bit. And they think, well, I'm only enhancing slightly what I know to be true. So that might be the next step of thinking. And then finally, what sometimes happens is that people say, well,
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
I know that my experimental premise is correct. I know that my idea for this experiment is one that could bear fruit. But for some reason, I'm not getting quite the result I'm looking for.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
I'm just going to change the image in this way and in that way to show as if it were a correct result because I want to be sure to get it accepted so that I can do further research in the field in this direction. And that is outright scientific misconduct. So I'm sure that this progression happens.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
It probably happens often because many people start out in science with only the best of intentions, with only superior ethics, but then kind of fall off that path and begin to do things that I think most of us would agree is improper and misleading.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
There's got to be a good name for that corruption cascade. What a... Oh, there's got to be a nickname for it. We need to get something we can trademark. Yeah, exactly. Because I could see how that stepwise pattern could occur, especially with all of these publisher peril models that are going on in the scientific mind, especially of a young researcher.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
There's been some critics of the major governmental institutions, NIH, CDC, that they are not letting younger researchers do take stabs at getting grants. Do you feel that to be the case or that's not really happening?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Yeah, I mean, the competition in particular for, there's a kind of grant that the NIH gives called R01. And this is a multi, potentially multi-year grant, very coveted because historically it's been used to launch a lot of early career scientists in their career. They have a good idea. They have a good set of ideas that could be developed, but they need time. They need to get a little traction.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
in their laboratory work. And these are so competitive, incredibly hard to get. And often now you're seeing scientists waiting until their 40s to get these R01 grants that can kind of set them on their path. I think it's partly that the competition is a good thing because sometimes the best ideas rise to the top.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Sometimes it's a terrible thing because a lot of great ideas get squeezed out of the system and conventional wisdom can ascend and dominate and become sort of impossible to get away from for certain people. Let me give you an example of how that, I think, has had a deleterious effect on Alzheimer's disease. So some listeners might be familiar with something called the amyloid hypothesis.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And unfortunately, that trust has to be won, not just assumed. And when you have situations where there are missteps, honest human mistakes, or scandals associated with misconduct, Or simply just bad moves, bad policy moves. What you see is that often scientists are entrusted with policy decisions for which they have no specific expertise.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
This is the dominant hypothesis within Alzheimer's disease. And to state it quite simply, it involves the idea that
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
deposits of these amyloid proteins, which are sometimes called the sticky plaques that accumulate in a person's brain, they also occur in other forms, forms that can dissolve in the fluid that surrounds your brain, that these amyloid proteins lead to a cascade of biochemical effects in your brain that ultimately result in dementia.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
This idea has had such dominance, and since its ascendancy about 30 years ago, has literally crowded out a lot of other ideas because the funding has been so robust for the amyloid hypothesis that a lot of investigators feel that their best chance of success in the field, a field that they care deeply about and may have innovative ideas about, but they know they might have to view as closely as they can to that hypothesis in order to be funded because of
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
bias in the system associated with it. Now, I'm happy to report that it's not like all research in the field is strictly about that. There are new ideas coming to the fore that I think are innovative and interesting and are beginning to get funding. And of course, there's always people who are interested in exploring prevention associated with neurological disorders, including Alzheimer's, that
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
that merits a lot of attention and can have some success. So all of these things are happening simultaneously. But when you have one idea that has so deeply captured a lot of the scientific thinking in the field, it can crowd out things. I like to think of it a little bit as, you know, if you want to use an analogy to why do farmers rotate crops?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Because if you have a monoculture, one crop in the same field for year after year after year after year, It can exhaust the soil of nutrients that it needs. And so they rotate crops. I think there needs to be some rotation of ideas within Alzheimer's more than we see today in order to come to the full potential of innovation.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And within this research that you've investigated so thoroughly, has there been evidence that was supporting the amyloid model that has been disproven or has it largely stayed out of that discussion?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Well, the genesis of my interest in this had to do with a famous experiment, one of the most influential experiments in Alzheimer's disease, basic science experiments. And this was done by scientists primarily at the University of Minnesota. And what this experiment did is that they extracted a certain type of
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
amyloid protein from genetically engineered mice that were designed to produce a lot of amyloid protein in their brains. They extracted this protein, a certain specific type of amyloid protein that they called amyloid beta star 56. They even came up with that kind of clever name for it, AB star 56, that was very memorable.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And then they injected it into rats and the rats then showed signs of memory loss that could be compared to certain symptoms of Alzheimer's disease. So what was really interesting about this experiment was that it was a sort of proof of concept that amyloid proteins had a direct relationship to causing something like Alzheimer's, at least in rats. And so,
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
So, the initial article I did in this realm involved an assessment of that experiment and related work and what was found by a particular scientist with whom I worked very closely and who produced a dossier, you might call it,
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
on a lot of the experiments in this group was that this experiment was based on thoroughly doctored images, images that had been changed in ways so as to support the experimental premise and results. And so what you have here is a fundamental experiment in Alzheimer's disease that had a lot of influence in pushing the field forward and validating the amyloid hypothesis and encouraging people
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
to look at new elements and permutations of that hypothesis in a way that had tremendous, tremendous force in the field. What we found was that it was based on false data, on data that was proved to be false. And two years after my story in science came out describing this, the paper was finally retracted by most of its authors.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Or decisions about how to run things in society that they might claim expertise for, but they actually have no special expertise for. And those are the reasons why I think sometimes people develop mistrust in science.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And it was appearing in the journal Nature, which is a very important, famous journal. So this was a kind of a landmark moment in a way. So to answer your question more broadly, in my book, Doctored, I... looked at several dozen important scientists in Alzheimer's research and, of course, their collaborators and their trainees.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
So all in all, representing the work of hundreds of scientists in the field, including some very important scientists. And so thousands of images in these many hundreds of papers that were examined were found to have been based on improperly changed or doctored image manipulation. What percentage of those were related to the amyloid hypothesis? The vast majority. And the reason is pretty clear.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
When the dominance of an idea is so extreme in an industry that most of the research is associated with, in one way or another, with the amyloid hypothesis, it's logical to understand that this would be found not just in good science, in strongly developed and reliable science, but also in doctor science or just plain poorly done experiments. And part of the reason for it is that
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
It's easier to get away with improperly changed, manipulated images in Alzheimer's disease if you're going for a set of ideas that is already well accepted in the field. There's less scrutiny. There are people who say, well, of course this is illogical.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
finding in this experiment because we know from this experiment and that experiment and these 50 other experiments that have done associated with the amyloid hypothesis that of course we're going to find something like this. And so people cut corners and they think, I'm never going to get caught on this.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And maybe I even believe in it deeply and I'm willing to roll the dice on possibly getting caught. But there you have it. Yes.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
These big journals, Nature, Lancet, there have been issues with journal articles being published that ended up being retracted. There's supposed to be a peer review process that is very thorough. And part of that peer review process seems to leave out the fact-checking of corruption, of fraud.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Now, as for me, I'm deeply, deeply determined to try to fight off the needless skepticism, the needless complaints about problems in science and in medicine, but also to be serious about identifying problems where they are in order to strengthen the scientific infrastructure, if you would, to strengthen the ability of doctors to have those honest and effective conversations with patients.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Do we need to change the peer review process to make those people participating in peer review to be more cognizant or to be on the lookout for these type of situations?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Yeah, I want to tell you a small anecdote from... One person who I looked into the work of, a very famous Alzheimer's and stroke scientist at the University of Southern California by the name of Berezlov Zolakovich. And
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
When I looked at dozens of his papers and people who were helping me with this and working on examining the images found a lot of problems with these papers, a lot of apparently doctored images, part of my due diligence process, part of my own process of checking the images
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
believability of concerns raised about these images is to go to subject matter experts in the field, people who know this stuff cold and would be able to both understand the possibility of manipulation, but also its meaningfulness, whether it's important or not, what it does to change ideas in the paper and in the field itself.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And I'll never forget this moment where I went to this particular expert who was a world-class expert in the science behind some of these papers, showed him the dossier, and he came back to me and he said, he was sort of, astonished himself because he found in the dossier of apparently doctored papers, a paper that he had personally peer reviewed and approved for publication. He had no idea.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And, but in seeing it in the dossier where the, the image is taken apart and it's analyzed step-by-step what might've happened, uh, He said, of course, I should have seen this. But we're not asked to do that. We're not trained to do it. What we're trained to do is look at the science and see if it makes sense. We're not trained to look for possible fraud. We trust our colleagues.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
We trust their scientific expertise and their veracity as scientists. And so I would say, in answer to your question, should peer review change? The short answer is yes. People should all be somewhat on the lookout for this. It shouldn't be this obscure thing that people don't even think about when they're reviewing papers.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
But I think the primary responsibility should lie with the journals themselves. They need to put in place sophisticated and methodological procedures for checking papers the same way they review papers to see if they are scientifically important enough to publish. They need to make sure that they're scientifically honest enough to publish.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Fortunately, there's software tools that make a big difference in helping check for that nowadays. And so both using those tools and then having a human being review the results is a critical first step. Now, this can cost money.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Journals don't want to spend the money, but look, if they're going to represent science properly, if they're going to prevent us being steered off into wrong directions and dead ends, it's essential that they start to get serious about this process.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Yeah, they put so much emphasis on impact factor. Maybe we should put a bigger emphasis on fraud factor. There we go. You mentioned that specifically within Alzheimer's research, there's been the issue with this fraud because of the initial basis for the amyloid hypothesis.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Does that mean everything we know or at least thought we knew about Alzheimer's is actually fraught with major error and we need to go back to the drawing board? Because my initial education on the Alzheimer's disease model is amyloid hypothesis, tau protein, other conditions, vascular dementia being looped into it.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Does that mean we actually have no idea where we are with Alzheimer's or is there some truth still in these original hypotheses?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
I think that many scientists would say that Alzheimer's is a multifactorial disease. So there could be a lot of reasons why dementia occurs. I think even the critics of the amyloid hypothesis, many of them would say amyloid proteins, tau proteins, as you mentioned, which is another protein that occurs inside the neurons in the brain, that they're connected with the disease.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And these, of course, are the signature markings that the so-called discoverer of Alzheimer's disease, Al Wah, Alzheimer's, from Germany back more than 100 years ago, these were things that he noticed. And so I think it's clear that there's something going on there. What I think is less well understood is the relationship of that to other factors.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
So are you saying you seek to be critical of the scientific method of the scientific agencies in order to make it more valuable to the general public?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And I think many scientists are now saying we need to look at possible infections. We need to look at inflammation in the brain that might be caused by a variety of sources. And we need to look at new thinking about repurposing certain drugs that might have proved effective for other disorders that might be more rapidly developed into something that could possibly be useful in Alzheimer's disease.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
So there's a lot of ideas out there. But I would not say throw out all the things we've learned.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
I have to say that it's been troubling to me that sometimes articles that I've written have been seized upon by people who I do not think are interested in developing our scientific institutions in a way that they are more effective, but are more interested in tearing them down, perhaps for political reasons.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
who have said oh well because this research was false or misguided or falsified that means that all alzheimer's research and maybe even by extension all scientific research is completely untrustworthy i don't believe that for a second what i believe is that institutions need to be improved they've fallen down on the job in certain ways they've been complacent in certain ways
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
They've given in to their own weaknesses in certain ways, but we rely on them, and it's up to us. Push them. Push them hard to do better for all of our benefit.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
What's your take on the new... political party coming in, in 2025, new NIH director, new HHS director. I mean, no one's confirmed yet, but as it stands, the nominations are put forth. Are you optimistic, pessimistic, or neutral in general for the future of healthcare as a whole?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
I would just change one word there. Not so much the scientific method, which I think in its highest form is a wonderful and well, well stated process of experimentation and and testing hypotheses. That part of it is terrific. It's where people cut corners or ignore important elements of the equation where you start to run into trouble.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Yeah, I would say that I'm pessimistic. I think some of the... Look, this is not an area that I've analyzed with great care, so I'm going to speak only briefly about this. But I am skeptical about a lot of the ideas that are being put forth by some of the people who have been nominated for those positions. You know, I think it would be a mistake to think that every idea they have is ridiculous.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
They might claim expertise for it, but they actually have no special expertise for it. And those are the reasons why I think sometimes people develop mistrust in science.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
I don't take that position. Let's just talk for a second about RFK Jr. Look, I strongly disagree with almost everything he says about vaccines. And I think vaccines are one of the most important scientific developments of the last hundred years and have been instrumental in improving health outcomes globally.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
So I think it would be a terrible shame if ideas about, in my opinion, misguided ideas about the possible harm that vaccines might cause became the ascendant idea within our important health institutions.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
That said, he also suggests, and I think with good reason, that we need to be emphasizing eating better foods, eating foods that don't have so many additives, trying to emphasize healthy, healthful lifestyles. Those are things that... I like to try to practice in my own life and I subscribe to, and I think an injection of that into the body politic would be of great importance.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
So I guess what I would just say is that I hope that some of these appointees can be dissuaded by thoughtful people from some ideas that they might have that would be, I think, potentially disastrous to health systems and to the health of the public and to emphasize others that could be a great benefit.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Yeah. Like I I'm less concerned about the vaccines being at risk because it feels like it's more of a state issue anyway than it is a federal issue. Um, I do worry about some of the organizations like ACIP, the FDA advisory committee, um, But I'm hoping science will win at large here because I feel when RFK Jr. says we need to prove vaccines are safe, it's like, can someone show him the data?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Because that exists. I recently spoke with Dr. Paul Offit about the vaccine safety data net that we have today. where there's a participating group of medical organizations that actually track vaccines once they're implemented. And that ends up being about 10% of all vaccines given. So if there's ever an issue, issues are caught fairly early because of that. And yet that's never talked about.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And it seems like it's downplayed because people are trying to score political points and rise in the ranks. Disappointing, but I'm hoping ultimately that won't yield the negative things that we are all concerned about in the healthcare space.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. And I wish that Paul Offit could maybe be made a close advisor in HHS. He'd be a great candidate for that because he... He knows his stuff and he's one of the true experts in the vaccine world that has done the most to promote the safe and effective use of vaccines.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
What do you say to the average person that's listening and saying, oh man, I'm hearing of all this corruption with Alzheimer's research. How in the world can I possibly trust my doctor? How can I trust that the education my doctor received isn't based on flawed science?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And so, yes, I support the very excellent exercise of that method. And I support people who are trying their level best to deliver something important to the public, even if they do sometimes make mistakes. How would you describe the scientific method for the general public? Well, science is a series of iterations.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Well, it's a great question, and there's no simple answer to that. But I think part of what I'm trying to do with the book that I wrote is to bring these sets of questions to a broad audience. And let me just say briefly that we're talking about a lot of scientific issues, and there are technical aspects to these, some of which are described in the book. But this is a book that is a narrative.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
It's a narrative investigation that tells the story of how these problems occurred by the story of people who are involved with these matters and their personal journeys. So I tried to make it accessible to people of, you know, all kinds of people who might be interested in these for themselves or families. What do you hope that they get from reading the book?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
One, I'd like there to be better public awareness and action on improving scientific institutions to shake them out of their complacency and lassitude in dealing with these very important issues of authenticity and consistency. and correct scientific information in the science literature.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And when I say how important that is, what I mean is that when the scientific literature is polluted with bad ideas, it skews thinking, it skews directions of research, and ultimately, As Matthew Schrag, who is an important character in my book and an incredibly principled scientist, has said, you can't cure a disease with fake science. Biology doesn't care.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And so what we want is more rapid progress. So that, number one, is I hope that we can clean some things up and create an attitude of... kind of thoughtful attention to this problem by the institutions of science, by scientists, and by the journals. So that's number one. Number two is I think people who are living with Alzheimer's, either as patients
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
or as family members who are taking care of folks who have Alzheimer's, need a little bit of background in order to press for better action and better results in a field that has been very disappointing over the last 30 years. So let me give you an example that might be a direct answer to your question about what people say to their doctors.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
So a couple of new drugs have been approved recently for Alzheimer's dementia. And these are drugs that attack these amyloid proteins that we've been talking about. And the first one is called Lekembe. That's the one that's been on sale for more than a year now. And
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
This is a drug that was regarded at the outset as what they call a blockbuster in the pharma industry, namely a billion dollars a year or more in sales. Well, the uptake of this drug has been very, very slow.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And the reason is, number one, the benefits of Lekembe are so small and so subtle that many doctors and scientists say that they're imperceptible to patients taking the drug or to their family members. So I'm not saying they do nothing. There's Studies that have shown they do something, but the effects are very, very subtle and small. So statistically significant, but perhaps not clinically.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And I think one of the great things about science is that every new discovery opens up vast new areas of ignorance in order to be able to explore and improve upon what we know. So I would say it's... bringing in a hypothesis forward, testing it, and then learning from those tests what amount of that hypothesis was true and correct and can be applied to human benefit.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
There you go. Those are the terms I was reaching for. Thank you, Mike. So there's that, but also these drugs come with very serious risks, risks of death or brain damage from brain swelling and bleeding. And of course, not every patient who takes it has those problems, but many do. And so it's a trade-off.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Do you want to risk the possibility of dying for benefits that are so subtle, as you say, to be not clinically significant? And so the uptake of these drugs has been very slow. Only a few thousand people in this country so far, when it was thought that within a very short period of time, there would be a dramatic uptake, so large of an uptake that it could be the biggest cost for Medicare.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
But that just hasn't happened yet. Has that not happened because the real-world outcomes were not as good as the research outcomes? And if that's the case, why did that play out that way?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Well, we're really not sure yet of all the real-world outcomes because it's such a slow uptake and there are so few people that... Is it a cost-prohibitive issue? It's also a cost-prohibitive issue, although now with Medicare paying for it for most patients, it's much easier to afford.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
But for people who are living on fixed incomes, they're still having out-of-pocket costs of thousands and thousands of dollars a year for this drug. To pay for it outright without insurance would cost in the many tens of thousands a year when you include the necessary brain scans to check for safety issues associated with this.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And of course, there's also the difficulty of taking the drugs, which is provided by infusions into your vein in a doctor's office. And this process has its own hazards. So I just want to say that This is a case where doctors are being asked by patients, should I take this drug? And I think many of them are saying, well, here are the costs and benefits of this. Here are the risks and benefits.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And for a person in your condition, here are the things you and your family need to consider. And I think what we've seen by the uptake being so slow, it suggests that a lot of people are just deciding not to do it. I think based on thoughtful comments and advice by doctors. Now, some doctors won't prescribe this drug because they're that concerned about it, but many will.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And I think even the ones that are prescribing it, many of them are saying, look, you have to weigh these for yourself. I can't tell you whether this is a good move for you or not. And really a lot of things in medicine, probably you can say much better than I can, really come down to that. They come down to a judgment call that the doctor and the patient have to collaborate on.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Yeah, that's a term we use in the field called shared decision-making. where a lot of times I think shared decision-making should be implemented throughout every decision that we do in healthcare, but especially in areas where the evidence isn't quite so clear one way or the other.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
So a good example of this right now would probably be PSA testing or screening in otherwise healthy patients to potentially catch prostate cancer early. Before, in the past, we used to recommend it as a screening tool to catch prostate cancer early, and it was a higher-level recommendation.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Now it's moved back a bit to shared decision-making, where we talk about the risks you face, the potential downstream effects, the risk that you face based on your family history, et cetera, et cetera, and we come to the conclusion together whether or not to screen a healthy person, not when someone already has symptoms. That's a diagnostic test at that point.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
So shared decision-making is really important. And I'm curious how the shared decision-making component was so poorly predicted by the pharma industry in this case, where they thought it was going to be a blockbuster drug.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
especially in the case where when it comes to Alzheimer's disease, patients typically, what I've experienced, especially when a loved one has dementia, are almost desperate for anything. They're willing to reach for an experimental drug. They're willing to try anything because they're so desperate based on how devastating the condition is.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Sometimes we see that these ideas are completely without foundation when they're tested, and those should be discarded. Others have a grain of truth or an element of them that could be extended and made into something very valuable. Every so often, there are tremendous breakthroughs that are discovered in a single or a single series of experiments.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
If that's the case, knowing my knowledge of how the disease develops itself, how it impacts families, how is there such a poor prediction by the pharma industry with it not becoming a blockbuster drug? Where was the disconnect?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Yeah, I mean, I think, I can't say for sure, but I think part of it is a pure financial equation. So these are publicly traded companies, they have shareholders, and they need to satisfy their shareholders.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And so when you spend sometimes billions of dollars developing a drug, you need to have great expectations for how that drug's going to do, or you're not going to be able to do the research and to do the testing that's required. And so I think part of it is purely financial motive.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
A lot of this, look, the way we do drug development, it's a financial equation, and they're going to have to somehow justify their sunk costs.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Yeah. Do you have any issues with the current state of drug development as exists today?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Well, I mean, I guess I would just say I'm not, first of all, I'm not an expert in all drug development. But one thing that I've observed in working on this book is that there are some difficulties that FDA faces right now, contradictions that they face that I'm very sympathetic about. So on the one hand, particularly for diseases for which there are not good remedies, Alzheimer's among them,
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And for rare diseases, there is enormous pressure on the agency to fast-track drugs, to wave them through, even though the results might be ambiguous, even though the results might be even not so great, because people who are in a desperate situation desperately want those drug approvals.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And the agency is then blamed if they hold things up for what many people would say are perfectly understandable, scientifically sound thinking by their analysts. So what I feel very concerned about is that the pressure is sometimes going to result in drugs being approved that are not just not very effective, but could also be harmful.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And the effects haven't been fully felt in the clinical trials that led up to their approval.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Is there a world where, and again, I don't consider myself an expert in this space, but I'm curious, based on your observations, if it would be valuable to create a new track for the FDA for medications?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
where there are exemptions made for people who have terminal illnesses and they could be given an exemption to take a medicine where we know it's very dangerous, it's experimental, but because they have no other option, they may get an exemption to use a drug. Can there be some kind of research exemption track created for conditions like this?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
you know, I'm going to pass on this one. I just feel like it's a little outside my area of expertise. Because I'm just trying to think from a rational standpoint of how to get around this issue that the FDA- Yeah, there's already, I do know there are already exemptions that the agency has the ability to grant exemptions.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Companies have, I can't remember what the name of this expression is used for it, but they can give people drugs for, you know, cases where they can't afford the drug and there's a certain number of exemptions that they'll give for that, especially for rare diseases, but I don't know all the ins and outs of it.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Why do you think that currently in our state of media, there's a lot of fanfare where there's a positive scientific research article? And yet when there is a negative finding where it negates something that we thought or perhaps something that we believed in at once, there is less fanfare about that, less correction or noise about the correction. Why do you think we don't focus on those as much?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
When it comes to the FDA, we're talking about the medications of it all right now, but there's also the world of medical devices. And now that world is moving so rapidly, probably faster than ever before with exponential rise in AI. You have all the interesting stuff Elon Musk is up to. What do you think the future of the FDA is when it comes to devices and approvals of experimental devices?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
I think it's a tremendously exciting time. I think there's a lot of potential there. And there's really, with AI, there's a lot of potential for new drug development as well. I think some of the claims being made are exaggerated because you still have to test drugs in people before they can be approved.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
What's an exaggerated claim that you've heard?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Well, the idea that drug development is going to be sped up by many years for particular illnesses because of AI. I think there will be some advantages and new ideas will come out of it that are tremendously important. So I do subscribe to that. But look, the most difficult hurdle for drug is always human testing. And that still has to happen.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
It has to happen in a safe and correct way to safeguard the public. So I would say that something that should be considered and this might not be very popular with the current change of administration in Washington, is that right now, company fees pay for FDA examination of their drugs or devices for approval.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
In this episode, I sit down with Charles Piller, the investigative journalist for Science Magazine, who is behind some of the biggest exposés on scientific fraud. His recent book, Doctored, has uncovered widespread corruption by self-interested researchers, government accomplices, and greedy corporations, all racing in the quest to cure Alzheimer's.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And the logic of this is that the companies need the approval, and consequently, they should subsidize the agency to do this examination. But in my opinion, and I think in the opinion of a lot of people who have studied this, this creates an inherent conflict of interest for the agency.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
The people who are essentially paying for their salaries are the ones who they are really wanting them to sign off on a particular drug.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
There's also the phenomenon that they call the revolving door, where people who are involved in the drug approval process in the federal government leave the agency, go to work for the drug companies that they were earlier passing judgment over, and now they're on the other side of it, earning four times their earlier salary. So that can be a powerful incentive as well.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
What I think that the federal government should do is fund those drug evaluations from tax dollars because it's a much cleaner way that removes some of the conflicts of interest. And I know that they can't pay every FDA official the amount they could make at a drug company, but, um, at least starting with, uh,
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
being able to control that process fully and not depend on corporate fees, I think would be a good step.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
For sure. Why, United States, we have the highest cost, the most money spent on healthcare, yet we don't have the greatest outcomes. Why do you think that's the case? Well, I mean, I think- Loaded question, right? That is a big question.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Only on a podcast we can ask that because normally on a TV segment, you'll have three minutes. It's like, go.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Well, I mean, again, this is not my direct area of expertise, but I think it's pretty abundantly clear that it's multifactorial. There's an entire gigantic mess with health insurance in our country. And there's a gigantic mess with drug pricing that the outgoing Biden administration has been attempting to make some progress on. And
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
I don't know what the Trump administration is going to do when they come into power, but I sincerely hope that they continue to try to get situations, get deals together so that the American drug consumer is not subsidizing all this research in a way that really is done in no other country in the world. So those are two big things that I think need to be looked at carefully.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
In the health system that we have now, those are out of control costs. And this horribly tragic recent events associated with the murder of a drug insurance company executive in New York, I mean, this is terrible, and I think it's horrible that the social media associated with that, subsequent to the murder, some people were kind of saying that the murderer was a hero as a result of it.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Well, I think there's one fundamental problem in the scientific literature that leads a bit to this, which is that careers are made on discoveries. They're not made on repeating experiments and finding that they don't work after all.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
I don't subscribe to that at all. I think it's a horrific thing to have done. That said, it shows the outpouring of frustration with the way in which medical insurance and drug company costs are really having a terrible, terrible effect on all of us. And so I think those are two areas that really need to be cleaned up.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Yeah. Even UnitedHealth was looking at... I believe it was the Department of Justice investigation for some kind of financial scheme going on. Similar vein as some of the people you were researching for the Alzheimer's work. What do you think...
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
should be the punishment or the outcome for someone who does participate in fraud, for someone who does make up scientific findings and is caught doing these things. Do you think this is simple as losing their job, discreditation? Should it be a criminal penalty?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
I think all of those are possibilities. I think also sometimes people deserve a second chance. I think it depends to some degree on the extent of the possible image manipulation, how long it went on, how seriously it might have damaged thinking in the field. Those are things that...
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
they can be hard to measure, but when you, let me just give you an example from my own reporting, this guy at university of Southern California, who I mentioned, uh, Zlakovich, he, um, There was evidence that he had been doctoring images in ways that had an effect on drug development, that had an effect on scientific thinking for many, many years.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And ultimately, he wasn't able to stay in his job. He's been put on indefinite leave by the university. or he's accepted indefinite leave. It's a little bit ambiguous how they characterize it. But the point is that it's very hard to recover from a pattern of misbehavior that goes back decades.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Isn't that why we have the replication crisis that we currently do?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
It's very hard to support the idea that a person like that maybe made a mistake and should be allowed to learn from their mistake and improve their behavior. On the other hand, I'm very sympathetic to junior scientists
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
It is. And you see it in all different fields, not just, of course, in Alzheimer's disease, but in all different kinds of medicine and social sciences. Psychology a lot? Absolutely. Yeah, it's a big problem.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
and people who are drawn into either misconduct knowingly or maybe even unwittingly in some of these labs because they're beholden to powerful supervisors, professors, who dictate the future of their young scientists within their lab. And so I think those people deserve a lot of sympathy and a lot of support.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And I've talked to many of them, and it's sometimes heartbreaking, the stories you hear about how difficult it was for them knowing that to talk to me could jeopardize their reputation and their career, even though they were kind of trapped in a training situation where they witnessed wrongdoing.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
But I'm thankful to say some of them stepped forward because they believe deeply in the integrity of science.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
We talked about the peer review process improving. Do you think institutions like the major institutions of the world that are performing the scientific research should be also put on notice that they need to improve some things?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Yeah, I mean, I think really you have the The institutions that regulate, fund, publish, and administer science, you've got universities, journals, regulatory agencies like the FDA, funders like the NIH, and foundations that fund important scientific research, they're all guilty of complacency. They're all guilty of not keeping up with the times, not keeping up with the reality,
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
that there are pervasive problems in image doctoring and related kinds of falsification of research. So I think taking it seriously is step one. Not just paying lip service, but really developing
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And for those who don't know, the replication crisis is if we had a piece of research done in the 1950s, we try and replicate the same research with similar methods, we don't usually get the same results. And that's a problem because generally speaking, when we do a piece of research, we should be able to, using the same methods, get to the same results.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
methods that are routinely applied in all of those institutions to be able to show the public that they care deeply about honest research research that can be used to move the society forward and not just drug development but other forms of science forward and so yeah i would say you got to hit those institutions hard the institutional authorities of science are behind
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
They need to improve their game, get their game going on this.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Yeah, I think the incentive structure is a good place to start because right now a lot of these institutions are heavily incentivized to just produce massive amounts of research right or wrong, especially if, almost like roulette, it lands on the right number. They can become incredibly wealthy as a result. You mentioned the advancement of science. You write for Science Magazine.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Trust the science was a statement that was mentioned quite often over the last five years. People have lost trust in science. What do you think science means to the average person these days? And how can we improve that notion?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
I think one part of it is to move science out of this realm of the great experts, the great brilliant people who are smarter than all the rest of us. And to remember that people can understand these ideas. Scientists, if anything, one of the skills that they don't have, aren't the best at, is communicating. And I think some of the great work being done is not well understood by the public.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And so when they hear of scandals or difficulty in the field that is maybe slowing down progress, they tend to generalize that to things that maybe should be supported and that are actually very important. And so what I would say is these institutions need to stop feeling so proud of themselves and start thinking about how to convey important messages to the public.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
The second thing is sort of an interesting thing. I'm sure you're familiar with this as a doctor, is that it's been shown over and over that
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Medical mistakes, of course, happen, but when one happens and the institution, like a hospital or a doctor who might be responsible for having made the mistake, cops to it and apologizes or explains it to the person who may have been victimized by that mistake, the response is negative.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And hopefully institutes a new process to prevent the mistake from recurring.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
There you go. An important next step. But they've also found that people are able to accept that and respond in ways that instead of going to endless litigation for malpractice, to basically treat it like a human problem that we're all struggling to solve. And like you say, to get better, to improve.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And so I think the institutions of science need to also be willing to say when mistakes were made, and even if they fear the reputational hit. You know, one really great example has to do with universities. So universities... are filled with every sort of human being.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Why do you think that we're not being able to replicate those studies? You think it's largely because of fraud, methodological errors, something else?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And when certain doctors, even famous people within the university are found to have engaged in improper activity, misconduct of various kinds, sometimes what you see is universities investigate it, but in an endless way. in an endless secretive way where you don't really ever get to the bottom of it in a public way so that the public is left wondering.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
This, I think, greatly diminishes trust in institutions. There should be a more public process. There should be a way of preserving the right of due process for people who are accused of wrongdoing, the right of due diligence on the part of the organization to look at things carefully.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
but also balance that with the need to provide the public with a real explanation for why they should trust the institution. And that's why, in my opinion, some of the problems have to do with independence, the independence of examination of these problems.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
So when you have a serious set of accusations, for example, in the doctoring of research, it's almost always kicked back to the university, who then secretly look into it for months, sometimes for years, The public never learns of what the result was.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
I think it has more to do with the incentive structure of science and how scientists build their careers. So often the paradigm publish or perish is extremely true in all different realms of science, in biomedical science, in physics, in sociology, whatever scientific field you're in. And That means creating a lot of papers.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
That's a terrible way to go about it because you've placed the institution that has the most to lose and the least to gain from a robust, rapid public examination of an important issue that the society and their community has a right to know about. You put them in charge of it, and then what do you get? You get more generalized distrust. So when you have people, particularly nowadays, who are...
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
generally distrustful of public health officials, scientists, public institutions like research institutions and regulatory agencies, and decrying all of their flaws and mistakes, I think often what you have is a symptom of a lack of transparency. You know, when a guy like me has to be the one exposing
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
problems that could have been detected for years and years by responsible institutions, you know you have a problem right off the bat.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Yeah, I'm glad you said the word transparency because the whole time you were discussing that, that's what I'm craving for. And I think, honestly, if we go back to the pandemic, the issue that I think all the organizations, CDC, FDA, all of the messed up with was the lack of transparency and honesty when it came to what we know and what we don't know.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And at times over promising things in order to get better buy-in. And I feel like that ultimately ended up harming people because that distrust, maybe you got better by it initially, but long-term, if you hurt that trust, as most of us know through human relationships, whether it's a friend, loved one, boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, wife, losing trust is really hard to get back.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
So while yes, you may have an initial better outcome long-term, you're creating a bigger problem. And I feel like these organizations that say, oh, well, I'd rather put out a more clear message rather than a garbled message. Like right now with the COVID boosters, as an example,
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Dr. Paul Offit and I talked about this, where most countries across the globe say that the COVID booster is really solid for people who are at higher risk, those over the age of 65, perhaps immunocompromised states, et cetera. And the United States says, no, we're going to say it's good for everyone.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And the real reason why the people in charge say that is because they say, when you send a nuanced message, we feel like there's less uptake. And there's no real harm of people getting it that are lower risk. And while that could be true, you're not really telling the complete picture. And I feel like people have good BS meters.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And if they sense that they're being misled, almost like the opposite of what you described when you lean in and say, we did mess up. Here's what we did wrong. Here's what we're going to do better. This is the opposite of that. It's almost like you're being lied to directly to your face. How do you then build trust in that organization? Do you feel that? Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Really, there has to be better honesty and transparency by institutions. And there's so much fear within those institutions if they show any weakness or admit any weakness that they'll be sued or they'll have other public relations problems.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Well, let me just say though, that I, even though I just wrote a book about really a big set of problems in Alzheimer's disease, I do feel hopeful in certain ways. And I wanted to describe a couple of those. We live in an incredibly exciting time in the sense that It's much easier now for problems to be caught because of the ability to crowdsource those problems.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
So what you see is that when institutions like universities and journals and government agencies have dropped the ball on image falsification in Alzheimer's and in other fields, you've seen this sort of army of volunteer image sleuths and you've seen the rise of important whistleblowers to point out these problems and to force institutions to take notice.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And one thing that we know from bitter experience is that people don't go back and say, hmm, this didn't look quite right. This other scientist's work didn't look quite right. I'm going to check it out. do an experiment of my own that's similar or the same as this, because it's very difficult to get those published.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
This has been a very, very important and large development that I think ultimately is going to greatly benefit patients. It's certainly going to change the nature of research in Alzheimer's disease. It's already having that effect. And consequently, it's going to create openings for new thinking.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And there are people waiting in the wings to try to get support for new ideas and new approaches to studying these problems that will benefit from the sort of emergence of crowdsourcing and volunteers who are able to do things that institutions can't always do because of the constraints that they feel legally or in other ways.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Yeah. It is optimistic. And at the same time, I'm currently reading a book called The Death of Expertise. Have you heard of it? Yeah, I've heard of it. I haven't read it. That leads me to be a bit more pessimistic because they're described the phenomenon that I can relate to from the social media world that I exist in, where
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Before in the past, many years ago, it was people didn't know as much science. Then it went to people were willfully ignorant. They didn't care to learn much about science, even though it was available to them. And now it's at a place where it's like, you're not just wrong, you're aggressively wrong and loud about it.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And the louder you are, the better you can do on some of these social media platforms. And I worry how ultimately that plays out because people, The scientific community is at a significant disadvantage due to their lack of competency in communication, is a nice way to put it.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Whereas those people who are aggressively wrong are so captivating, are so watchable, are the ones that the algorithms end up pushing. So I ultimately don't know how this plays out long-term.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Yeah, I couldn't agree more on that. It's kind of terrifying in that way. I guess I would just have to hold out the possibility that these institutions can get better at what they do, not just in administering and reviewing the science, but also in understanding how to use media in a way that effectively reaches people. And I would just say that...
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
That your example of someone who, you know, your rather substantial side gig from being a doctor is, you know, it's a good sign that we have to have people who can do more than one thing and can kind of encourage this dialogue. But yes, we're in a big hole in that way, and I certainly don't have a solution for it.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
But what I'm trying to do is to put accessible information out into the world that can help move people in a good direction, that can help raise awareness of these issues, but also force institutions to sit up and take notice and to make themselves better. What's said on social media is one thing. What institutions do is another.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
They're not completely separate from each other, but these institutions are powerful and they can do much better. I want to say that I work for Science Magazine. I think one thing that I've appreciated there is that even though they themselves have been caught many times in having published studies that then later are shown to have been flawed or untrue, maybe even falsified.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Journals do not want replicated studies, especially if they're equivocal or if they disprove something, particularly if the original experiment showing something ostensibly important was done by a well-known or famous or perhaps just esteemed experimenter.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
You know, they're quite determined to put out accurate information, to do it in a way that faces down hard issues in science and medicine. Otherwise, I wouldn't be writing the stuff that I'm writing. They're willing to look at, take a good hard look at it. And I think that's,
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
The sort of thing that I think a lot of the institutions haven't been willing to do is to take a good hard look in the mirror and say, what am I doing that's leading to my own problems? How can I get better at this?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Yeah, they want to look outside for why their problems are happening.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
That's exactly right. And it's not that they are the sole cause of all their own problems, but they need to clean up their own house. Yeah.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
What's one positive thing we can leave viewers and listeners with when it comes to the future of Alzheimer's research? Where do you think we go in the next 20 years?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Well, I think one thing that I'm really looking forward to is some interesting research in two realms. One is the possible benefits of the new GLP-1 inhibitors. So these are the drugs like Ozempic and others that have been taken for weight loss.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
that, wow, amazing, amazing possible effects in other realms, including the possibility of attacking dementia associated with different causes of dementia, including Alzheimer's. So I'm looking forward to seeing whether that might potentially have some benefit.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
I'm also very curious about results from clinical trials coming up associated with the possibility that infections play a role in Alzheimer's disease. Even finding evidence of multifactorial reasons for the disease, meaning more than one reason, perhaps amyloid proteins play a role, perhaps infections play a role, perhaps other ways in which inflammation in the brain can play a role.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
I think scientists who are looking at these various components and trying to understand how we can attack more than one thing at a time are likely to gain ascendancy in coming years. So to me, There's no quick fix on this.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
We unfortunately are way behind, and I think because of the undue extreme emphasis on one way of thinking in the field, some things have been left by the wayside for many years that deserve a closer look. I think those things ultimately will get that closer look, and
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Because there are so many scientists who have a lot of integrity in this field, I think we're going to see some results in years to come, but I can't make any prediction of how soon.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Yeah. I think it's equally exciting to me as it is a bit scary to know that a potential virus you're exposed to when you're younger or even as an adult can potentially play a role in something that impacts you in your 70s and 80s. without even realizing it. So on one side, very interesting. On the other side, oh man, so many unknowns, so many variables.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Yeah, yeah. So many unknowns, so many variables. And it can be a scary thing, but I think also being courageous enough to look hard at ideas that might be controversial is one part of it. It's one part of it.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
I can imagine if you're trying to grow your career and you're looking to have more citations, it's not helpful to do a replication study because odds are that it's not going to have a lot of citations. The original work might, but yours probably won't. Odds are you're not even going to get it published. Yeah.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
For sure. Well, thank you so much for your work. Excited for our listeners and readers to check it out. Where can people follow along your journalistic work?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Well, of course, they can look me up on the Science Magazine website. My page is easily findable up there with all my stories. And of course, I'd be very grateful for people to get a look at my book, which is available from all the online resellers and from your local bookstore. We like to support. Thank you so much. Okay. Thank you, Mike.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Huge, huge thank you to Charles Piller for uncovering that corruption. But did you know that Elaine Norton and I actually uncovered corruption from some health podcasts? Definitely listen to that conversation. Huge thank you to you for listening and watching. If you enjoyed this podcast, please give us a five-star review.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
It really means the world to us because it helps the show find new viewers and listeners. And as always, stay happy and healthy.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Do you think that creates a crisis for us where we're putting out new research that is hellbent on creating a new discovery, but it's based on shaky science as we currently have it?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Well, let me say that I think that the vast majority of scientists are honest. They're trying their best to do something useful. They may feel the pressure of the field they're in and the competition and the incentive structures that may be misguided, but they're not dishonest. They're not cheating. They're not falsifying information. That said, there are many who are.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Just like in every walk of life, you have people who are cutting corners or doing something illegal or dishonest. And so I would say that people can trust the vast majority of experimentation.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
I think what's not as well understood is that a few experiments, or a relative few of experiments, that are done improperly, that are based on false ideas, or are deliberately doctored, deliberately changed in inappropriate ways to, say, support a hypothesis that can't be supported by the actual data in the experiment, When those things happen, they can skew thinking in the field.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
We discuss secret data manipulations, shocking misconduct, and the unsettling truth about how money and prestige can derail real progress. But it's not all doom and gloom. We also dive in into how we can rebuild trust and make science work better for everyone. So sit back, get comfortable, and let's jump right into this eye-opening conversation.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
They can have subtle or sometimes very obvious effects in steering other scientists in certain directions, particularly if they're done by important people who have a lot of influence in the field, including some that I've written about.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
How does that factor in when we look at our hierarchy of evidence and expert opinion being low on that pyramid, and as you go higher to the meta-analyses, the systemic reviews, how does it factor in that there are perhaps studies that were done with poor data, falsified data? How does that impact our ability to do those high-quality reviews?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Well, I think the reviews are only as good as the stuff that they're built on, so it's garbage in, garbage out, I'm afraid. And if studies are unreliable, they can have that ripple effect. Also, you see in many of the metadata studies and the reviews that you're referring to, even by some of the best review organizations like the Cochrane folks over in the UK,
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Those are done with extremely high standards, and they try to throw out data often that isn't really that reliable. The problem is, if data is falsified, it can be very difficult to know how reliable it is. And so therefore, you see over and over again that a lot of these review studies are equivocal in their conclusions. They don't come down firmly on one side or another.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Is this treatment valuable or is it worthless? They often say, well, we can't really quite tell. And the forest plots all over the place. There we go. It's partly because you have not enough data. It's partly because sometimes you have poorly done studies or even falsified data that skews the overall thinking in the field and the ability to combine it just for a concrete solution. Hmm.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Where do paper mills fall into this equation?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Well, this is a phenomenon that is a pernicious effect on scientific research. So I mentioned before the publisher-parish ethos within scientific careers. And because of the pressure that scientists feel and the competitive nature of the field—the too few jobs for too many PhDs, for example—
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
What you have is a situation where clever entrepreneurs, if you want to call them that, have developed these companies where they generate fake papers. In other words, kind of interesting sounding papers. kind of plausible sounding scientific papers. And then they sell authorships to the papers. Sometimes these are generated even by AI programs.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
And they sell these authorships to people who are desperate enough or simply confused enough to pay a little money to get in on the game and be able to enhance their resume to get jobs or to increase their ability perhaps to have publications in legitimate journals.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
So how do we fight back against this potential fraud that seems to be growing?
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Yeah, so it's a great question, Mike, for a few reasons. And let me answer it in a couple different ways. So We are very privileged in this country to have excellent institutions that regulate, monitor science. The funders, the journals, the regulatory agencies like the Food and Drug Administration, these are agencies and groups that have
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
for many, many years served the public well with advancing scientific ideas, but I think have fallen behind in critical ways, in ways that we need to press them to improve for the sake of the scientific record and also for the advancement of medicine in general.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
Let me give you the example of, this is something that to me was a pretty stunning example from research that I did for the book that also appeared in Science Magazine recently about the guy who used to be the chief neuroscientist in the head of the division of neuroscience at the National Institute on Aging.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
That is a very important agency that funds research into Alzheimer's and other neurological disorders. And what this guy was, I found in my reporting, had been apparently falsifying images and other data in his studies going back a quarter century. This is Dr. Maslia? That's right. Very important guy in the business, very highly regarded.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
His studies had been cited by leading people in the field thousands and thousands of times, even though they were filled with images that appeared to have been based on doctoring. Doctoring in ways that often fundamentally changed the results so that you could no longer rely on the experiment, no longer rely on its conclusions.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
So when I asked the National Institutes of Health, which is the parent agency for NIA, when I asked them, did you, when he was hired, do any sort of check for possible falsification of data in his work? The answer was, no, we didn't. And we don't think that's very useful or helpful to our agency.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
So to me, it was a stunning display of complacency, a stunning display of an attitude that is very much out of step with the realities of our current situation, where the technological means to alter images in a way that's very hard to detect has been increasing day by day. And I think it's going to get worse with AI.
The Checkup with Doctor Mike
Exposing Widespread Corruption In Alzheimer's Research | Charles Piller
So we need to build up the infrastructure of people that are conscientiously thinking about these issues in advance, carefully, and with the idea in mind that while most scientists are honest and would never do this, there's enough of it out there to alter the field, and we need to take a close look.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And what I do exclusively is write investigative articles that ask deep questions about the reliability of certain kinds of scientific studies and the veracity of them. And so it's very important for science to also self-police. You can't have science be just accepting everything and not questioning anything. Science is all about questioning. Thank you.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And what I do is I take that to the next level. I dig deep and try to understand whether there are aspects of scientific research that require a second look for everyone's benefit.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Sure. At the risk of dating myself, I am old enough to remember the Watergate scandal with Richard Nixon, and it really inspired a lot of young people. Of course, I was too young to be a reporter back then, but I remember being riveted by the revelations associated with that scandal and really inspired by the
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Yeah. I mean, I think, um, look, this is science magazine. It's the bedrock of scientific research in many ways, a bedrock. And it's very respected by scientists all over the world. And so that gives it a degree of credibility in the scientific community that is very important. Now, by the same token, how that credibility is supported is to also be skeptical and question.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And that's something that the journalism part of Science Magazine does, and I think does quite well. But also the scholarly part of the journal does some good questioning as well. There are viewpoint pieces and opinion pieces that push people to think more deeply about certain subjects and also are willing to challenge authority when it seems beneficial.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Yeah, well, science comes out weekly. My articles are... not by any stretch of the imagination in every issue, because what I do usually takes months for every article to do the deep research and reporting and often data analysis that might be required to mount a really credible case. And whether you're talking about Alzheimer's research, or I did a story a few years back on nutrition research,
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And whether you're talking about the kinds of deep questions that people have or just wanting to understand the subject well enough to write about it in an authoritative way takes time. I'm a very fortunate journalist. Most journalists are on tight deadlines and do not have the luxury of having that time. But it's time that's required for certain kinds of stories.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And like I say, I'm fortunate, but also it's a way in which The editors of the magazine, they understand if they want to contribute in this way, they have to be willing to allow me to take the time to do it. And so I'm very grateful to them for that and for their leadership in that respect.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
That's right, yeah.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Well, so that was something I, many years ago, worked for a small newspaper that was published by the University of California, and I became interested in biological sciences. And I became interested also in this phenomenon of how genetic engineering was used in our culture and in the scientific community. Because I think it's an important, amazing, powerful tool
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
kind of intrepid legwork that has to go into uncovering the critical information that goes into helping people understand something from a factual and also a most credible perspective. perspective on important issues facing our society.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
and one that, like any tool, can be used for good or ill in society. And one of the really interesting things to me was this big question that goes with the question of how you use genetic engineering in warfare. Because at the time I was writing this book, a long time ago, there was a considerable amount of concern about it. There still is.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
But that was kind of in at the ground floor level, you might say, when those concerns were just building on the possibility of biological warfare being affected by genetic manipulation in a way that might produce perhaps more harmful weapons.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
At the time, the United States had what they called a biological defense program, which was a robust, large program to examine whether they could develop remedies for problems for imagined biological weapons that had been the product of genetic engineering by the country's adversaries.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And of course, this is a very challenging realm of research, very dangerous realm of research because of the hazards associated with the possible biological weapons organisms. And so what was really interesting to me was this nuance in the picture. In other words, the difference between offensive research and defensive research in biological weapons studies is really one of intent.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
In other words, the processes of examining these organisms, exploring them, building defensive responses to them, understanding how they might be used, Offensive and defensive programs need to do the same kinds of things. And it's only the intent of the researchers that determines where things are at.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And so for me, as an investigative reporter, I wanted to know all I could know about how that worked. And a lot of how I did that book was to both explore the history of that realm, but also to file a number of Freedom of Information Act requests of the federal government
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
in order to learn about the Biological Weapons Defense Program and to learn the degree to which it was involving what they called dual-use experiments, dual-use studies. And that means that they were equally applicable to offense and defense. It's just, again, a matter of the intent of the researchers. And to me, that was critical to help inform the public about the potential dangers involved.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
of the use of genetic engineering in that realm. I think that's really what the goal of the book was. And for me, because it was a pretty technical subject, I felt strongly that I needed to get a collaborator who was himself an expert in this realm, someone who understood the new genetic technologies intimately from his own work.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And I was fortunate to get a great scientist, a guy by the name of Keith Yamamoto, to work on the book as a co-author. So that was my first book and one that I felt broke some new ground in helping people understand that subject. And a lot of things have happened since then. It's still very much a subject of concern in defense circles.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And so, like so many young people, I was inspired by that, but it took some years to learn and to study and to understand where I might fit in in journalism and to try things. But yes, I was from a pretty young age interested in trying to become an investigative reporter. It's not that easy to do because It's a competitive field. There aren't that many jobs in investigative reporting.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
But I think, again, I kind of set some groundwork so that people can understand it better.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
That was in 1988. 1988.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Like I say, on the ground floor on that one.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Well, I would say that my most recent book that was just published doctored. To me, that was the most difficult and challenging. And the reason is that, you know, I... Forgive me, listeners. I flatter myself by saying I think I'm a better writer now than I was a long time ago when I worked on my earlier books. I hope that we all can improve in our craft over time.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
One of the things that I set a goal for myself with this book was to tell it as a narrative story. with a clear story arc. And what I mean by that is that this is not a dry recitation of scientific concerns or findings from an investigation. What this book is about is telling a story. How were these problems in the world of Alzheimer's disease discovered?
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And the book describes a lot of apparently falsified research, doctored research in critical areas. And For me, the challenge was not just learning what those were, which was a big challenge in and of itself, and I'm happy to talk about how I went about doing that, but also critical was to find the right people to use as tools
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
the storytellers, really, to use their life experiences as a way of understanding the implications of this raft of apparently doctored research on the field and on the challenges and difficulties in finding effective remedies for this disease that's so critical for the United States and the world and also afflicts so many people and has such a massively difficult effect on their family members and caregivers.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Well, I mean, I guess it depends in part on whether you're talking about reporters or the general public. But I can speak as a reporter. I was too young to be a reporter during the Nixon era, where he had created an enemies list that included many reporters. And he was someone who believed quite adamantly in that the press was something to be reined in.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Now, look, all presidential regimes, all administrations have had challenging relationships with the media at times. And the current one is no exception in that regard. I think this media environment's very, very different from the one that I grew up in, if you will, as a reporter. And the differences are, of course, exemplified by Thank you so much.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Unfortunately, there should be a lot more. But if you're deeply determined and want to put in the work, it can be done.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
It means that the conventional mainstream media has much less control over the way in which people think about the world. And that, you know, there are both pros and cons associated with that. Now, for me, look, I have worked throughout my entire career in what you might call call the mainstream media.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And I respect the work ethic and the ethical posture and the professional approach of serious-minded reporting, not to the exclusion of other people doing other things. But to me, that's pretty important for delivering the kind of reporting that I do. I need to have that professional backstop. I need to have the determination to
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
double-check, triple-check every fact in every story in my entire book. I spent months fact-checking my book after it was written. That's just part of the process that you have to do if you want to deliver a product that is the maximum degree of credibility, especially if you're challenging people in important ways. Now,
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
With regard to today's approach, I appreciate the question in part because I wanted to mention issues that I see related to the Trump administration right now. So let me take it on two levels. One is that there have been a lot of accusations by President Trump and others who are his supporters that there's a lot of what they call fake news in the mainstream media.
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Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
I personally think that that's ill-advised and misguided. I think it's improper for those kinds of accusations to be made as a general course of affairs. I think that the mainstream media, and by that I mean some of the big newspapers and many of the big TV broadcasts, et cetera, work really hard on their credibility. No one's perfect. No one is without error. Every one of us is subject to that.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
But there's a high degree of professionalism there. I think suggesting that it's false just because it may have an opinion that President Trump may disagree with, I think that's tremendously misguided. Now, I want to address, if I may, Dylan, just briefly. kind of funny situation that I found myself in as a reporter in the last few weeks since my book has come out.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
So my book talks about challenging the poor performance, what I would call the poor performance, of many of the institutional authorities of science in our country. And when I say the institutional authorities of science, I mean the
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
The journals, like including the one I work for, Science, the universities who are gatekeepers of important knowledge in the world, the National Institutes of Health, which is the primary funder of biomedical and medical research in the country, and so very, very important for ensuring the quality of that work and that thinking.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
and the Food and Drug Administration, which is the entity that approves and sometimes disapproves new drugs for remedies or other kinds of remedies that people really are desiring for important diseases. So I think all four of those institutions, the journals, the universities, the funder, and the regulator have really made a lot of mistakes and have had grave weaknesses in their behavior
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
That has led to a lot of the problems of misconduct associated with the work that I've done for my book that relates to Alzheimer's disease and the deleterious effects on scientific thinking and on the development of remedies in that field.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
because my book is so critical of them, and because there are real problems in the field of Alzheimer's disease, I think that it can be possible to mistake that kind of criticism for a general condemnation of those organizations. I believe that the journals, the universities,
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Yeah, I mean, I think if you're doing this kind of work, you have to be prepared for threats and for the consequences of pissing off important people, to put it frankly.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
the funder, NIH, and the regulator, FDA, we are extremely fortunate in our country to have these entities who are so incredibly effective in so many ways, delivering new knowledge, helping certify the benefits of certain drugs and keeping others that may be suspect out of the approval process. Those are things that we should honor and appreciate. It doesn't mean they're perfect.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
It doesn't mean that we shouldn't expect them to up their game when they are doing things that are not beneficial, that are complacent, that allow improper behavior. or inadequate research to somehow gain ascendancy in a field in a way that is based at times even to some degree on fraud or misconduct. So I've been very critical of them. But there have been a couple of occasions where RFK Jr.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
and Jay Bhattacharya, who is the new National Institutes of Health director, where they have referred to my reporting as a way of describing how critical they are of the research realm, particularly in Alzheimer's research. And it's an awkward position for me for this reason. I believe that they're right to challenge some of that research, to call out some of the problems in it. And
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
I wouldn't have written about it if I didn't believe it was important. Of course, I think it's important and I appreciate their interest in it. What I do not appreciate is the slash and burn approach to removing huge portions of Alzheimer's research and other forms of research from the NIH. and from the capacity of FDA to evaluate new drugs.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
For all their flaws, these agencies have done generally a very good job in many ways. Even though I'm very critical of them, I want to see them strengthened and not greatly and radically reduced.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
So I just want to make it clear that I think you can have a different position and still support some of what's going on and be critical of a lot of the other things that are happening with the new administration.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
I'm working in an occupation where the articles that I write question and sometimes threaten the careers of people, in this particular case associated with my book, Doctored, scientists who have apparently engaged in misconduct and misrepresentation of important studies. And when exposed, that's a very, very difficult thing for them. But it should be, honestly. If people are engaging in
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
You have a way of capturing my long answer in a few key words, Dylan. Thank you for doing that.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Sure. So perhaps it would be good if I went back to the beginning of how I started to do my reporting for this book and why. And it all began when I got connected with a young professor at Vanderbilt University, a guy by the name of Matthew Schrag. who was a guy who had been looking into a particular Alzheimer's drug called Simufilam from a company called Cassava Sciences.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Now that drug crashed and burned, is no longer being even thought about as a possible remedy for Alzheimer's. It's a long story I tell in the book, but I'm going to pause away from that for now and talk about why that led to this bigger set of issues. And that's because
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Schrag, who is himself a neuroscientist who researches in a lab some of the potential causes of Alzheimer's disease, and also somebody who treats Alzheimer's patients, because he's also a physician who is a neurologist who has patients who have the disease. And he... had over the many months begun to hone his ability to see potential doctoring and scientific images.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And what I mean by that is he could look at images, say, of brain tissue, magnifications of brain tissue, and be able to look at them and see the possibility that someone had used a program like Photoshop to move some things around or to obscure certain elements of the image or to copy elements and clone them within an image
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
all to accentuate a point that was being made for a scientific paper, but to do so improperly in a way that is essentially a kind of scientific cheating. And because he had developed the talent for seeing these things from looking at this, initially looking at the science behind this drug, semufilam, he was looking more broadly to expand his ability to do this.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And he, in a way, kind of just by accident ran across one of the seminal studies in the history of Alzheimer's disease. Now, this was a study done in 2006 at the University of Minnesota. And what this study did, if I could just
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
use a few, a little bit of scientific explanation to bring this experiment to life for listeners a little bit, is that it involved a group that was using genetically engineered mice to produce copious amounts of a protein that deposits in their brains. This protein is called amyloid.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And it is thought by many, many, many people to be the linchpin of Alzheimer's disease, the thing that kicks off a series of biochemical effects in the brain. that leads to cell death in the brain and ultimately to dementia.
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Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And so what he was doing when he kind of stumbled on the study and was looking at its images is that he realized that there were some big questions about whether these images were improperly changed. And so I remember the first conversation that Schrag and I had about the images in this seminal paper that had appeared in the journal Nature.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
in misconduct or engaging in activities that appear to be misconduct that needs to be explored. The public needs to know because it can be very harmful to the pursuit of scientific knowledge and also eventually drug development. So we've all got a stake in it. And for me, The threats and the pushback and the kind of public claims about disputes about my work, that comes with the territory.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Now, you remember I said that the journal I work for, Science, is one of the preeminent scientific journals. Nature also is kind of its counterpart. Science and Nature are two journals that are often thought of in the same light as being the most important general science journals out there. And so to get an article into Nature means that you're really hitting
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
something really important and potentially could have a lot of influence. And this study had enormous influence. It was one of the most cited and discussed studies in Alzheimer's disease for a very long time. And The way the experiment went was this. They extracted these proteins from the brains of these genetically engineered mice.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
They refined just one little segment of the protein, something they called amyloid beta star 56, their star protein. They injected it into rats, and rats began to show the apparent symptoms of memory loss that they compared to memory loss of Alzheimer's disease.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
So what you had was the first kind of cause-effector relationship of a particular substance towards Alzheimer's disease, albeit in animals, but still something that really inspired the science. Now, Why was it so important? Why was it so pivotal? If you don't mind, Dylan, what I'd like to do is go back more than 100 years to tell kind of the story of the disease. How did we get here?
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Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Why was this a meaningful part of the scientific picture? So the reason is that Alzheimer's disease was first described in 1906 by the German scientist Alzheimer, namesake of the disease. And it involved... When he did... an examination of brain tissue from one of his patients who had died with terrible dementia. And this brain tissue showed these two kinds of really obvious proteins.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
One was this amyloid protein that I mentioned before, the so-called sticky plaques that listeners may be familiar with that are regarded as a classic sign of the disease. And another protein that is called tau, which is called the tangles because it looks like kind of tangled string and it resides within the nerve cells of the brain.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
So this combination of plaques, tangles, and dementia was defined and described as Alzheimer's disease. And so what happened for many decades after that was honestly not that much. And the reason it was not that much was that this disease is a disease of old people, basically. primarily old people. Very, very few people get it in their younger years.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And consequently, because of simple demographics, for many decades after 1906, there weren't really that many people living into their 70s, 80s, 90s, and beginning to show the symptoms of dementia associated with Alzheimer's disease. So while it was a well-known syndrome, it was not an important disease.
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Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
But come the 50s, 60s, 70s, when gigantically important developments in medicine like vaccines, antibiotics, remedies for cancer, heart disease, diabetes, all of these things suddenly became prevalent in our medical practice and people began to understand better how to treat them and lifespans increased dramatically. Consequently, we had a lot more old people and those old people
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
unfortunately, many of them began to get dementia, dementia described as Alzheimer's disease. So suddenly Alzheimer's disease became a very important, very important kind of disease to study. And a lot of money went into it. A lot of ideas came out.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And the prevalent idea, the idea that gained the most power in the field, that had the most currency among scientists and physicians and funders and journals, everybody, was something called the amyloid hypothesis. And as I said before, what this involves is...
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Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
You've got to be prepared to take it. You've got to have a thick skin, and you've got to be prepared to have good lawyers behind you sometimes because anybody can sue for anything, even frivolously, and you just have to be ready for whatever comes.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
The deposits of amyloid protein that build up in the brain cause a cascade of biochemical effects in the brain that eventually lead to dementia, cell death, and the terrible symptoms of the disease. This was really very widely accepted. And so what happened was they built a lot of new drugs around this idea, drugs that attack the amyloid plaques and try to remove them from the brain.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And scientists and drug developers and pharma companies can be very clever. They were really good at doing this, really good at finding these compounds and these various biological drugs that could remove the amyloid plaques from the brain very effectively. The problem was they did not arrest or improve the dementia symptoms of the disease. So no one was getting better.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And these drugs, many of them had terrible side effects that could be extremely dangerous, sometimes lethal. And so because of this terrible combination of, you know, the effectiveness of removing the amyloids, but the ineffectiveness of benefiting patients, there was a lot of discouragement about the amyloid hypothesis. People began to say, is this really the right path we're walking down?
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Or should we be pursuing other scientific avenues that might be more fruitful, more effective? And what happened was right about this time, 2006, after a bunch of these failures in drug development, came this experiment out of the University of Minnesota that appeared in Nature magazine.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And lo and behold, it instilled new hope, new understanding, and new confidence in the proponents of the amyloid hypothesis that, yes, we're on the right track. We haven't found the right substance yet that is going to be the cure or the substance that really hits its mark and starts to really arrest the symptoms of the disease.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
But we are going to get there because we know this experiment has in a way led the way. Now, it wasn't the only experiment like that. There were others as well, but this one was pivotal because it came at a critical time and it resulted in a gigantic, gigantic influence. gigantic influx of funding and interest in the field.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
So that's where we were that moment with Matthew Schrag, him thinking about the experiment, and him seeing this might have been based on doctored images that really caught my attention.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
We both, in a way, were kind of stunned because we realized, if true, if his concerns were well-founded, then it might call into question a very important experiment that could cast doubt on this ongoing research associated with the amyloid hypothesis.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Well, I think increasingly it has been talked about. I think one of the pieces of evidence that is I mentioned earlier, again, I have very mixed feelings about this, is RFK Jr. and Jay Bhattacharya both brought it up in their comments to Congress during their confirmation hearings. But I guess I would put it this way.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
When I originally wrote an article about this finding in Science Magazine in 2022, there was a lot of uproar in the scientific community about it, a lot of concern about it. And there was a fair amount of coverage in the regular media, but not to the extent where it was like became household conversation, obviously. But it raised a lot of ruckus in the scientific community, for sure.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And so what's different now is that I've gone back and I've done years of research on Alzheimer's disease, on the amyloid hypothesis, and on the science behind all these things.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
and have found that the field more generally has been stricken by a large amount of unfortunately apparently doctored research based on misconduct, where images that are central to the scientific findings in important experiments
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
and in other kinds of experiments that maybe aren't so important, but in a lot of important experiments, had been changed improperly to reflect the experimental hypothesis of the person doing the work. And when you're changing your data, to try to make it look better, you know that you're not proceeding in an honest way.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And so, yes, there has been a lot of interest in the book, a lot of attention paid to it, because it is so important to the millions of Alzheimer's patients in our country. And the many more millions of their loved ones and caregivers, to have the most honest, effective ways of looking at the disease.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And if there are problems in the way the thinking has gone, if there are cracks in the edifice, if you were, of the institutional authorities of Alzheimer's disease and the most powerful forces, then We need for people to understand that better and understand the importance of it and the meaningfulness of it.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
It doesn't mean that nothing associated with the amyloid hypothesis is true and that nothing should be done about it, that no one should ever look at it or think about amyloid proteins. I think even the critics of the hypothesis believe that amyloid proteins have something to do with the disease, but maybe not everything to do with it the way it's been often described.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And consequently, yes, there's been a lot of anger at the messenger, you might say me, in bringing this to light. But I think what's interesting is that the criticisms of the book, and there have been criticisms from scientists who are deeply committed to the amyloid hypothesis and whose careers have
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
and funding and reputations are built on examining, exploring, and proving out that way of thinking about the disease. Of course, they feel threatened. They've been antagonistic and critical of some of the findings of the book. But I should add that they haven't found anything in the book that's not true.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
What they have said is that they just see the situation differently and feel very strongly concerned that, and again, I'm going to get back very briefly to this question of the administration of this whole set of issues in Washington, but they feel concerned that
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
my book might encourage people who are anti-science from thinking, oh, well, because some science was improperly manipulated, all science is suspect. Let me address that directly, if I could, Dylan, just for a moment. I want to say that I believe that in every walk of life, a small percentage of people will cut corners or manipulate information or cheat or outright commit fraud.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Yeah. Well, I'm fortunate that I'm not suffering from a lack of income, but I'm not getting rich either. You know, very few reporters really do get that rich. But yes, for me. Look, I mean, it may sound a little bit corny, but I'm really deeply committed to doing something beneficial with my work.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Why would Alzheimer's research be any different from people in finance or plumbers or even journalists who do engage in improper activities from time to time? We're all human beings. We both make mistakes and there are a few among us who are willing to do things improperly. And so that does not mean the vast majority of research in Alzheimer's research can't be trusted. Of course it can be.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
It's the honest work of people who are deeply committed to finding the truth in these matters. Do they make mistakes sometimes? Sure, of course, all of us do. But I think we should understand that even though it's only a tiny percentage of research in the field that may have been based on doctored images or on other improper scientific approaches or on outright fraud,
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
even though it's only perhaps a very small percentage of the overall body of research, even that small amount in certain locations in the thinking of the field can skew scientific thinking, can lead to dead ends, can waste important funding. that we don't have nearly enough of, that we desperately need to help patients by finding better approaches to finding a cure for the disease.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And so it's that wasted thinking, it's that wasted funding, and the tragedy of it that I think the field needs to take more seriously, even though Myself and I think everyone should understand that most scientists are honest, even if they're pursuing things that don't ultimately pan out. They're trying their best.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
I do feel that way, Dylan. I feel optimistic for a couple reasons. Um, well, first of all, I think, uh, Over the last few years, there's been a much greater effort to detect improper research, to find doctored images in scientific research. And I have to say that it's been stimulated by something that I think many listeners would maybe even be unsurprised by, a kind of crowdsourcing.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
So you have a small army of these people who call themselves image sleuths, and they are forensic image experts who know how to use software and who have a good eye for seeing when some improper duplication of an image or change in an image may have occurred using software tools to examine it carefully. And until these folks entered the fray a few years back,
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
You had enormous amount of complacency on the part of journals and other institutions who are, again, the gatekeepers of science and should be all over this. They should be vigilant about it. But unfortunately, we're very complacent and we're not paying close attention. And so much improper science slipped through. That's harder to do now because you've got thousands of eyes on it.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
people who are posting their images, some to social media and some to a website called Pubpeer that listeners may want to look up just for fun and take a look at. It looks at scientific studies and where perhaps mistakes or improper manipulation of images might have taken place. And it doesn't necessarily conclude that bad things have happened, but it asks questions.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
That's always been my motivation back from, as I mentioned, inspiration as a very young person associated with the Watergate scandal. What I want to do is expose things that can illuminate issues in a way that are helpful to the public, that can advance these causes in a way that might put things a little bit better on track than they were before. Look, you have to be realistic.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
It shows the apparent flaws in the images. it requests that the scientists behind the work take a close look at it. And often, it gives fodder for an examination by the journals that published the work. So this is one way in which I feel optimistic. It's forcing a greater concern about making science the most powerful, the most reliable it can be. And that's the forensic image sleuths.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
The other thing is I think that as much as the amyloid hypothesis of Alzheimer's has been dominant for many, many years, has received the most attention, Yet in recent years, there have been a few other ideas that I think are potentially fruitful and interesting that I have my eye on. And I would certainly encourage people who are interested to think about and examine.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And I can give a couple of examples of those. One is right now, the kind of the GLP-1 inhibitors. These are the drugs like Wegovy and others that have hit the world by storm of late. And whatever pros and cons there are of these things, they have become very important drugs in our world.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
But one of the interesting things about it is that scientists have found that it's possible that they may have beneficial effects on early stage dementia. And as a result, they're being tested in people. I think within
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
probably by sometime early in 2026, just no more than about a year from now, we may know whether those hopes, the early evidence that we've seen with those drugs might prove to be true and correct. And it might be an avenue that some patients might be able to travel to have a better, more hopeful experience with the progression of their disease.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
The other thing that I think people often forget about is that certain infections that seem like they're gone, like one example is herpes virus that people might get that causes cold sores, but then goes away. And people think, okay, I'm done with that.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
But it can somehow, sometimes I should say, be a latent infection that hangs out in internal organs, including the brain, for many years, even decades, after the person has apparently gotten over the disease and gotten over the infection. And people are studying the effects of these latent infections on dementia. And it's possible that it could be a factor in Alzheimer's disease.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And there's trials going on right now, again, that I think within a few years might have fruitful information that could prove beneficial in understanding the possibility that there's other avenues involved.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
maybe in concert with the amyloid hypothesis or maybe separate from it, that could have a lot of impact in helping, if not cure people, at least helping the cognitive symptoms become less bad or be arrested in some way. Now, there's one other thing I wanted to mention, Dylan, and I know this is most certainly an interest of yours, which is prevention.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And one of the things that I feel hopeful about is that it's becoming more known nationally and globally that We do have agency in our lives, even when it comes to a dreaded disease like Alzheimer's that sometimes seems so mysterious. We know very well that there are certain things that are risk factors for the disease, things like high blood pressure, high cholesterol,
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
sedentary lifestyles where people don't get exercise, or eating habits where people aren't getting the proper mix of nutrition and eating well. I guess what I'm trying to say is that living our best lives
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Being one person, no matter how influential some of my work might be, and fortunately, at times, it is influential. I think the book, for example, Doctored, has turned a lot of heads, and that's great. But you have to understand that the world's complicated. My goal really is to be one of the many people who's trying to do something beneficial in the world.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
aside from it being its own benefit, aside from it being something we might all want to do just for the sake of, again, having our best lives, it can also be a way of forestalling or lessening the effects of Alzheimer's disease late in life should we be one of the unlucky ones to get that disease as an older person. So I'm just encouraging people to think positively and
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
to take precautions, to address risk factors, and to live your best lives for all kinds of reasons, including prevention.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And what we need is creative thinking that supplements some of the more conventional studies to keep people moving in being broad minded about it. Now, you know, I just want to make it clear that while I'm not an expert in. Things like supplements and brain training and things like that. I'm not aware of anything like that that is either a preventive or a cure for the disease.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Beyond what I've already said, that I think generally taking care of risk factors is good for all of us. for whatever ails you, not just Alzheimer's disease. But I want to say that I appreciate what you're saying because I think creative thinking, innovative thinking is part of what's going to solve this problem ultimately.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And because I feel deeply about it, it also means that I really enjoy what I'm doing. I really enjoy digging. I really enjoy getting to the bottom of puzzles. And that's an integral part of being an investigative journalist, is figuring out how mysteries end, what the steps are to learn what the root causes of problems are, and how someone might try to correct them.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
It may be, and I think many scientists think that Alzheimer's is a multifactorial kind of disease. In other words, there might be a number of causes and it might require more than one approach. to really arrest the symptoms of cognitive decline.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And therefore, some of the things you're saying, like neuroinflammation, there are many scientists in the field who believe that that may be one of the linchpins of both comprehending the origins of the disease and doing something useful for people that have it. So the short answer is yes, people should be looking at these things.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
I don't personally know the research you're talking about, so I don't have an opinion on it, but creative thinking is what we need.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Oh, you're so kind to say that, Dylan. And I just want to say that I agree with you very much. We have to remember that we are the center of our own lives. And we're the protagonists in our own stories. And it's up to us to think creatively and be thoughtful and to take care of ourselves. And I appreciate what you're doing towards that as well.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Well, it is available through every normal online source, of course, and through your local bookstore. People prefer to do it that way. I like to support local bookstores. And you can find an enormous amount of information about the book if you want to hear what people are saying about it. There have been a lot of reviews, a lot of articles about it, other podcasts.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
I encourage you to, if you're interested beyond what we've talked about, there's other different specialty podcasts that have talked about it. And those are all listed on my website. Very simple, charlespilleroneword.com.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Uh, I'm on blue sky and, uh, X and, uh, LinkedIn. And yes, I look at, I look at postings. If you, uh, if you tag me, I'll see it at some point. And, uh, uh, depending on how busy that day is. Uh, but yes, and, uh, feel free to reach out. There's also my contact information is, uh, up on my website as well. So you don't have to, to scurry around to find it on those social media sites.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Sounds terrific. Thanks again for all your interest. And I've enjoyed talking about this with you, Dylan.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Yeah, honestly, I've had that a number of times. And it's not with every story because sometimes in this business, you drill a lot of holes and some of them are dry holes. But when you hit a gusher, you know this is something potentially important and interesting.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And that's really critical to remember because it doesn't do much good to do a lot of digging and find out information that is beneficial to the public if you can't make it something the public really is interested in and wants to learn about. And so, you know, what I look for in the, as you say, the sort of most exciting moment is when I have
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
both an interesting story and compelling story of some importance, but also a compelling way to tell it. And that's usually through the eyes of the people who have lived it. And that's what I'm about.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
I'm about trying to find ways to tell stories that are interesting, that are compelling, that have a kind of arc that anyone could read and understand and kind of understand the relevance of it to their own lives. And that involves, for example, really, really getting to know people and getting them to trust you enough to tell their stories.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Sure. It's a good question, Dylan. Honestly, it's mostly the latter. It's just things that I get clued into and become deeply interested in over the course of it. I have to say the Alzheimer's situation is a little bit different for me. It is more personal in that, like Millions of Americans. I have personally experienced Alzheimer's disease in my family. So my mom passed away a few years ago.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
She died with Alzheimer's disease and had terrible dementia towards the end of her life. My dad did not have Alzheimer's. He had a different dementia. one called Lewy Body Syndrome. It's something that is associated with Parkinson's disease.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
So yes, for me, this book, this pursuit, this effort to try to expand knowledge about Alzheimer's disease is definitely personal for me and something that I feel that I owe to my family and to myself.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Well, my background initially was not in journalism. I studied psychology in school. And I very quickly realized that that was not going to be a profession for me, that I was... You know, as much as I respect and honor people who want to have a one-to-one relationship with patients and clients and help them work through their issues, I realized that that just, you know, that wasn't me.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
That wasn't my personality. And my grandfather was a quite accomplished psychology researcher back in the day. And he, in a way, inspired me. But then I realized I had to be honest and true to my own interests and talents. And so... What happened was out of college, I went ahead and experimented with freelance writing.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Thanks so much for having me, Charles.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And in fact, one of the first big articles I ever did was something that really sparked my interest in investigative reporting. It had to do with a group of workers in Utah who were working in a lead smelting plant. So this is a processing plant for lead. And this group of workers were exposed to terrible toxic fumes. And the company that they were working for had been covering it up.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Appreciate it.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And what I was able to do was to not just learn about some of the details of that toxic exposure, but to talk to some of the individual workers who were exposed. And this was quite a few years ago. There was no internet. And it was a bit of a challenge. And I used kind of a time-honored device.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
old school method, which was to call from a small town in Utah, where it's not that everybody knows everybody, but people are deeply connected to each other. And I made some random calls, looked up people in the phone book and started calling people and said, do you know someone who works at this plant?
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And within about three calls, I had some key sources to understand the depth of the problem there. And that gave me the sort of the bug, if you will, to try to do more in investigative reporting. I worked for newspapers for a while, small, very small newspapers, and then moved on to, uh, magazines.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And eventually, um, I broke through to a big newspaper job at the Los Angeles times where I did, uh, both, uh,
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
reporting on news subjects and also a lot of investigative reporting and really had the benefit of working with world-class colleagues and editors who were able to help me hone my skills and be even more ambitious and try to do things that required the teams that a big news organization can provide. And that kind of got me on my way, and I have never looked back from there.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Sure. Happy to do it. So Science Magazine is a scholarly journal, which is one of the hundreds, thousands of academic journals out there in the world that publish these kind of honestly, dense scientific articles with lots of references and a lot of technical terms. But it also has a journalism side of the magazine. So there's a scholarly article side and the journalism side.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And of course, I work for the journalism side of the book. And science is one of the most important and prestigious scholarly journals in the world. And so the benefit as a journalist of working there on scientific subjects is that my stories have the opportunity to have a lot of influence because the journal is so well respected, so well edited, and there's a trust factor.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
The trust factor is that we know that if it's coming from this source, it's something that we know has been deeply researched and deeply reviewed by qualified people. And that, I think, is a leg up when you're talking about technical subjects that might challenge conventional wisdom about science, which is a lot of what I write about.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
Yes. Yeah, that's a pretty accurate representation of it, Dylan. I would just say that the topics of Science Magazine are extremely broad, everything from astrophysics to, as you say, cellular biology or genetics. And the journalism side is equally broad. Now, we have news reporters who cover events within the scientific community, new developments, important studies that might break new ground.
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #24 with Investigative Journalist Charles Piller! Uncovering FRAUD in Alzheimers research, Intimate details of the scheme, the impact of doctored research, amyloid protein, investigative journalism, freedom of speech, censorship and more!
And as you mentioned, science is an iterative process. It always is the next step in reaching a new plateau of knowledge, but it's almost never the final step of anything because there's always new knowledge to gain. And the scholarly journal tries to find those new things. And the journalism portion of the writes about their meaning and significance.