Cecilia Kang
Appearances
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
They start to look at acquisitions that these companies have made over the years that may have not seemed either threatening or anti-competitive at the time because these big companies are often buying very small startups. But those acquisitions become really important tools for these companies to continue to grow and to maintain their monopolies.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
It used to be that the key way to determine if a monopoly was breaking the law was whether prices were going up for consumers. But how does that apply to an internet company, especially a company that has apps like Facebook and Instagram, which are free? And so regulators are saying there are different ways that we should look at how these companies have too much power.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
So the government is arguing that there are other ways consumers have been harmed. They say that if these mergers were not approved— that maybe Instagram and WhatsApp would have created much more competition that would spur Facebook to be more innovative and to make their app better. So you might see fewer things like data privacy scandals.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
You might see the company do a better job when it comes to containing misinformation. All these things that are not related to price, but do affect the consumer experience. And most interestingly, the Trump administration has introduced a new wrinkle.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
President Trump and his top antitrust regulators have argued that these platforms censor speech and that their ability to censor speech is a real sign, a symptom of a problem, which is that they are too powerful. So they are arguing for the first time that I have heard a speech theory that antitrust enforcement should include concerns about speech.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
So it's really ironic. In some ways, Zuckerberg and Trump want the same thing. They want complete free speech on the internet. They want no censorship. And Zuckerberg has tried to signal to Trump that, hey, we are on the same side on this issue.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
The courtroom itself is full of Meta's many, many lawyers, as well as the FTC's lawyers and media, and a lot of just people from the public. And it's interesting because up until really the minutes before the trial began, I wasn't even sure that it was going to happen. Why is that? In recent weeks...
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
But even though Zuckerberg has tried to do that and made so many other efforts to try to appease Trump, it really hasn't landed in the way that Zuckerberg wants and needs. He still has to go through this trial. And that's because even though they might agree on some things, Facebook is still viewed as simply just too big.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
I think so. I think Meta is coming in really confidently. I think legal experts are all saying that this is a tough case for the FTC. But the real question that I have as I watch Mark Zuckerberg finish his testimony this week is, what is he winning here? They might win this trial, but he still needs to win over the president.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
There are so many other issues that relate to his business, and there's so much at stake with this administration as the company continues to try to expand in new areas and grow. So I would say this is just one step in a very long process for Meta to really get back into the good graces of Washington and particularly to, for the first time, win over Trump's support.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
Because who knows what the next fight will be. That's right. And there will be many. Cecilia, thank you so much. Thank you for having me, Rachel.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
Senior Facebook officials have been trying to get the White House to stop this case from going to trial. And recently, as reported, Mark Zuckerberg was at the White House himself meeting with the president and his top aides, trying to get the president to drop this case before it could go to trial. And so this case...
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
which has huge implications, can be seen as a reflection of this ongoing and strange relationship between these two men, Zuckerberg and President Trump.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
So it's interesting, the story of Zuckerberg and Trump really goes back almost a decade. And their relationship has really changed and evolved over those years. I think it's fair to say that what started as a story of two very powerful, but very different and maybe even opposing figures has turned into something quite different. Lately, Zuckerberg has been very positive about Trump.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
He's really tried to get into Trump's inner circle. But Trump at this point has not returned the same sort of interest nor affection. I would say that the relationship is pretty one-sided at this point. Zuckerberg, for most of Facebook's history, has never been overtly political. It's actually sort of a mystery as to how he votes. He donates to both parties.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
He's not particularly vocal about politics generally. Things get a little bit more complicated when it comes to Trump's first election victory in 2016. That was a huge deal for Facebook, but not necessarily in a positive way.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
That's right. The left blamed Facebook for Trump's victory. They say that there was a surge of political misinformation that really helped Trump in winning. And Zuckerberg reacts to these concerns by creating new policies and new changes to the platform, instituting things like fact-checking, all with the purpose of trying to slow the spread of misinformation on the site. And the right hates this.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
They say that these actions are essentially censorship and censorship of conservatives. They say that the Companies' leaders and their employees are liberal and they have a bias that's against conservatives in Trump. And Trump comes out for the first time as anti-Facebook. It sounds like hating Facebook basically becomes like a bipartisan issue at this point.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
Yes, at this point, we're starting to see Facebook getting caught in between both political parties. And eventually, the Federal Trade Commission, under the Trump administration, decides to sue in December 2020, which was right before they leave office. That lawsuit leads to the trial that I've been covering this week. And then on January 6th, we know what happens.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
Trump's supporters stormed the Capitol. And at first, he is urging the crowds. And while his supporters are in the Capitol building and police are trying to take control of the situation, Trump addresses his supporters in a video.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
That video is posted across social media, including Facebook and Instagram.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
There's never been a time like this where... And employees of the company, as well as the public, are very concerned with Trump's speech. What Facebook decides to do next is very important. They decide to remove those videos, and they cite a policy that the company has on speech. The company forbids any sort of incitement of violence. And then Facebook escalates.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
Facebook decides to remove Trump entirely off the platform. Trump interprets that as a shot across the bow. And at that point, he determines that Facebook is an enemy. But when President Biden comes into office... All of a sudden, it is Zuckerberg feeling like Facebook is being censored. How so?
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
The real flashpoint was during the COVID-19 pandemic and when the Biden White House was reaching out to Facebook senior executives and really railing on them to clamp down on misinformation related to the virus.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
The Biden administration, according to Zuckerberg and employees at Meta, was quite strict about what kind of information that they thought was misinformation, any sort of skepticism about the vaccine, as well as any sort of conversation even around COVID where there might have been either just questions raised or maybe even satirical content about vaccines.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
COVID-19 was the subject of real scrutiny by the Biden administration. And White House officials were telling Meta that they need to take down all that content, which Meta thought was a real overreach. And in fact, the relationship between Meta and the Biden administration only gets worse once Biden appoints a real trust buster, Lina Khan, to be his top antitrust regulator.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
Lena is a well-known figure within the very small and esoteric world of antitrust law. And she is seen as one of the biggest threats across corporate America. And Lena Kahn picks up that antitrust suit against Meta that was initiated in the Trump administration.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
Yes. The animosity between the Biden administration and Meta only grows. And the company's feeling very much like a target.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
Well, the real inflection point was the assassination attempt on Trump. And that was a moment when Mark Zuckerberg saw Trump emerge and stand up from that stage in Pennsylvania with his fist pumped in the air, blood coming down his face.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
Zuckerberg later commented that he thought that was such a moment of heroism.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
And that he thought that, in his words, that Trump was a real badass.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
And that was the first time that I'd heard Zuckerberg really speak out so positively about a political candidate. He'd been very careful for many years to not take any strong position in politics. And then after the 2024 election, things really start to pick up. We see Zuckerberg almost racing to show his affection for Trump.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
Yeah, I had to run to my car because I'm on a lunch break during an antitrust trial where the Federal Trade Commission is seeking to break up Meta. And this is a really high-stakes case for Meta and for Mark Zuckerberg because this case really threatens the company's entire existence. It's existential because... The government is trying to break up this company that he co-founded two decades ago.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
First, he publicly congratulates the president on his election. Well, Mark Zuckerberg's been over to see me and... He visits the president-elect in Mar-a-Lago.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
Yeah, sort of. He goes on the Joe Rogan podcast.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
And for quite some time talks about how much he admired the president.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
And how he had become so frustrated with the Democratic-led former White House president.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
We see Zuckerberg also change policies within the company.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
And he also gets sort of DEI, diversity, equity, inclusion, sort of efforts at the company.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
These two big policy changes seem very much aligned with the Trump agenda.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
Meta donates a million dollars to the Trump inauguration. He's really pulling out all the stops. He's pulling out all the stops. It's happening in rapid fire all within a compressed few weeks.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
Yeah, Rachel, I don't think so. The president still holds a grudge against Zuckerberg and Mehta. And as somebody very close to the president told me just a few days ago, the president still wants his pound of flesh.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
Yeah, this case is really pretty novel in that this all centers around two acquisitions more than a decade ago, the acquisitions of Instagram and WhatsApp. And what the federal government is arguing is that Facebook had a monopoly when they bought these companies. And through these acquisitions, they were able to keep their monopoly.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
The reason why that is such a eyebrow-raising argument in particular is because the very agency that is suing Meta was the agency that approved those mergers more than a decade ago in the first place. Mm-hmm. Okay, explain that. So I've got to take you back in a time machine to around 2011, 2012. And this was a really pivotal time for Facebook.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
Facebook really struggled to create an app for the smartphone. And they were starting to see competition, particularly from Instagram, that made Mark Zuckerberg very nervous. Because Instagram had this... new and very interesting photo sharing app. And so Zuckerberg in 2012 decided to buy Instagram, which didn't have that many users and had very few employees for a billion dollars. Wow.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
That in itself was a big deal at that time, but regulators thought that it was such a small company, Instagram, and it didn't directly compete with Facebook as a social network, that they felt comfortable allowing that merger to go through. And then Zuckerberg got nervous again.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
Around 2014, he saw the rise of messaging apps like WeChat in China and WhatsApp, which was an app that was very popular globally, really picking up steam and getting tons of users around the world. And he was afraid that those kinds of messaging apps could also compete with Facebook because because they could take on more social features like sharing between friends and family.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
And I have just spent the first half of this week watching Zuckerberg testify as the first and star witness in the government's case against Meta. And when I go back, he will finish up and then we will have the former chief operating officer, Sheryl Sandberg, testify. What's the first week been like? It's been pretty crazy. Long lines to get into the courtroom.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
So then in 2014, he buys WhatsApp for $19 billion. Wow. Huge price tag that drew a ton of interest at the time. But again, regulators said, you know, this app doesn't directly compete with Facebook. So yes, we'll approve it. So both mergers approved by the Federal Trade Commission.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
Well, a couple things changed. First, Facebook becomes very powerful. It hits 3.5 billion users. And that sheer scale puts a spotlight on Facebook. Suddenly, people see that it has become an essential place for so many people around the world to obtain and to share information.
The Daily
The Trial Mark Zuckerberg Couldn’t Prevent
And once people start recognizing that, especially around the 2016 and 2020 elections, it changes the perception of Facebook and Mark Zuckerberg. The other thing that changes is that regulators start looking at the Silicon Valley companies very differently. they see that these internet giants only get bigger and stronger in ways that are unexpected.