Caroline Lawrence

And in Pindar, this is so great. Pindar describes, has a wonderful description of Jason arriving in Yolkis wearing two different types of clothing. Get this, a tight-fitting magnesium tunic that clung to his superb limbs and a leopard skin to protect him from shivering showers. And his long hair flows down his back. Now that shows he's really young. He hasn't cut his hair yet.

And in Pindar, this is so great. Pindar describes, has a wonderful description of Jason arriving in Yolkis wearing two different types of clothing. Get this, a tight-fitting magnesium tunic that clung to his superb limbs and a leopard skin to protect him from shivering showers. And his long hair flows down his back. Now that shows he's really young. He hasn't cut his hair yet.

And in almost all the accounts, we emphasize that Jason's quite young and many of them say he just has his first beard. So he's like 20 years old. He's quite young and good looking. So this is very impressive. So that's our first trope.

And in almost all the accounts, we emphasize that Jason's quite young and many of them say he just has his first beard. So he's like 20 years old. He's quite young and good looking. So this is very impressive. So that's our first trope.

Yes, I think we can firmly place it in the Bronze Age, especially the oral traditions and the kind of establishment of who are these people in different areas of ancient Greece. By the way, there's a great resource on the internet, which is the World History Encyclopedia, and there's a map of the hero Jason and his quest with the Argonauts.

Yes, I think we can firmly place it in the Bronze Age, especially the oral traditions and the kind of establishment of who are these people in different areas of ancient Greece. By the way, there's a great resource on the internet, which is the World History Encyclopedia, and there's a map of the hero Jason and his quest with the Argonauts.

And it's absolutely superb because it shows you it follows Apollonius's

And it's absolutely superb because it shows you it follows Apollonius's

version and it shows you his very circuitous route all around the ancient world and what happens in each place and for me i'm not good with geography so it's good for me to get a vision of where yolkus is and it's kind of like again the middle right coast of greece and you can just sail across the troy and in fact one of their places they sail by troy in the argo

version and it shows you his very circuitous route all around the ancient world and what happens in each place and for me i'm not good with geography so it's good for me to get a vision of where yolkus is and it's kind of like again the middle right coast of greece and you can just sail across the troy and in fact one of their places they sail by troy in the argo

but they don't stop there, but it's a kind of little hint. Oh, there's Tri on the starboard bow.

but they don't stop there, but it's a kind of little hint. Oh, there's Tri on the starboard bow.

Yeah, second one follows, as ever, the king says, and they do this in various ways. You can have the kingdom if you do this task, if you complete this task. Go get the golden fleece. Now, we don't have time to go into what the golden fleece was and everything. I think you've got another brilliant history hit telling the story of Phrixus and the golden ram that flies and stuff.

Yeah, second one follows, as ever, the king says, and they do this in various ways. You can have the kingdom if you do this task, if you complete this task. Go get the golden fleece. Now, we don't have time to go into what the golden fleece was and everything. I think you've got another brilliant history hit telling the story of Phrixus and the golden ram that flies and stuff.

But he's got to go to the end of the world to get the thing, the golden fleece. So Jason says, yes, I will go to the end of the world and I'll get lots of heroes. So that's the next trope kind of is the gathering of heroes. And he's got to gather all the heroes. And Apollonius starts off with a great long list of the heroes.

But he's got to go to the end of the world to get the thing, the golden fleece. So Jason says, yes, I will go to the end of the world and I'll get lots of heroes. So that's the next trope kind of is the gathering of heroes. And he's got to gather all the heroes. And Apollonius starts off with a great long list of the heroes.

And the movie has a really fun version where they have games to compete to see who will come, who gets to go on the Argo. And Hercules arrives and says, Hercules is here. What do I do? When do I compete? And they go, ha ha, you don't have to compete, Hercules. You're just naturally in. And then Hylus, this young boy comes and he says, oh, I'm too late to compete.

And the movie has a really fun version where they have games to compete to see who will come, who gets to go on the Argo. And Hercules arrives and says, Hercules is here. What do I do? When do I compete? And they go, ha ha, you don't have to compete, Hercules. You're just naturally in. And then Hylus, this young boy comes and he says, oh, I'm too late to compete.

But what if I can beat Hercules or Heracles at one task? And Heracles says, the discus. Hit that rock out to sea. And of course, Heracles throws the discus with his immense strength and it hits the rock way out at sea. And then Hylus, super clever. This always impressed me so much. He uses the discus like skipping stones on a pond. So he uses his brain and he hits the rock by skipping the discus.

But what if I can beat Hercules or Heracles at one task? And Heracles says, the discus. Hit that rock out to sea. And of course, Heracles throws the discus with his immense strength and it hits the rock way out at sea. And then Hylus, super clever. This always impressed me so much. He uses the discus like skipping stones on a pond. So he uses his brain and he hits the rock by skipping the discus.

It skips on the water and hits the rock. And Heracles says, ha ha, Hylus, you can come along. So that's one version. In another version, Hylus is Heracles' lover, boyfriend. And they get only so far. And that's another trope that's coming up further.

It skips on the water and hits the rock. And Heracles says, ha ha, Hylus, you can come along. So that's one version. In another version, Hylus is Heracles' lover, boyfriend. And they get only so far. And that's another trope that's coming up further.

Another fun trope is they get a bit, they make the Argo, then they build the ship and they get a guy called Argo to build it, Argus to build the ship, name it after him. And they get a bit of magic wood from the Oaks of Dodona, Zeus's sanctuary. And this bit of wood can speak. So they put the little speaking bit of wood into the Argo so it can kind of, it's got a sat nav for them.

Another fun trope is they get a bit, they make the Argo, then they build the ship and they get a guy called Argo to build it, Argus to build the ship, name it after him. And they get a bit of magic wood from the Oaks of Dodona, Zeus's sanctuary. And this bit of wood can speak. So they put the little speaking bit of wood into the Argo so it can kind of, it's got a sat nav for them.

It can help guide them along the way. And of course, in the great film, they do a figurehead of Irhira at the back of the ship, and she opens her eyes and gives Jason advice. So that's the third trope, you could say, is wood from the Oak of Dodona as part of the Argo.

It can help guide them along the way. And of course, in the great film, they do a figurehead of Irhira at the back of the ship, and she opens her eyes and gives Jason advice. So that's the third trope, you could say, is wood from the Oak of Dodona as part of the Argo.

Absolutely. And I love the idea that wood can speak. That's so great, isn't it? And again, you've got the idea of the approval of the gods, the presence of the gods are here. So that's super fun. Then they set off. And the first place they stop is the island of Lemnos. I don't know if you've ever been to Lemnos.

Absolutely. And I love the idea that wood can speak. That's so great, isn't it? And again, you've got the idea of the approval of the gods, the presence of the gods are here. So that's super fun. Then they set off. And the first place they stop is the island of Lemnos. I don't know if you've ever been to Lemnos.

I've not been to Lemnos, but it's roughly halfway between the eastern seaboard of Greece and Troy. And They arrived there. And there are all these women and no men on the island. Because unbeknownst to them, the women, for a various reason, have killed off all the men on the island. They've murdered their husbands and killed off all the men.

I've not been to Lemnos, but it's roughly halfway between the eastern seaboard of Greece and Troy. And They arrived there. And there are all these women and no men on the island. Because unbeknownst to them, the women, for a various reason, have killed off all the men on the island. They've murdered their husbands and killed off all the men.

It's all to do with the curse and not worshipping some goddess and getting punished and a bad smell. So the Argonauts arrive their first stop and all these women are there. This is great stuff. So they hang around there having fun. for a while. And the only woman who didn't kill her father is Hypsipyle, who is the kind of queen of Lemnos. And she has a little dalliance with Jason.

It's all to do with the curse and not worshipping some goddess and getting punished and a bad smell. So the Argonauts arrive their first stop and all these women are there. This is great stuff. So they hang around there having fun. for a while. And the only woman who didn't kill her father is Hypsipyle, who is the kind of queen of Lemnos. And she has a little dalliance with Jason.

And he's going to have two kids by her. So this is really interesting because, of course, Medea will kill his children, spoiler alert, later on. But these two children, one of them is the one who goes to fight at Troy. So that's where that son comes from. So they have fun on Lemnis. And finally, Heracles says, guys, come on, we got a quest. Let's go. So they all go.

And he's going to have two kids by her. So this is really interesting because, of course, Medea will kill his children, spoiler alert, later on. But these two children, one of them is the one who goes to fight at Troy. So that's where that son comes from. So they have fun on Lemnis. And finally, Heracles says, guys, come on, we got a quest. Let's go. So they all go.

Oh, I am so honoured to be back. Thank you so much for inviting me back. It was really good fun last time and I hope we'll have fun today.

Oh, I am so honoured to be back. Thank you so much for inviting me back. It was really good fun last time and I hope we'll have fun today.

Yeah, great, great, great question. Well, you've got Castor and Polydeuces, also known as Castor and Pollux, who are slightly problematic because they're supposed to be the brothers of Helen of Troy, but she's the next generation, isn't she, if they're the generation before Troy? We'll just skim over that. So Castor and Polydeuces, who are good at boxing and they're good at horse riding.

Yeah, great, great, great question. Well, you've got Castor and Polydeuces, also known as Castor and Pollux, who are slightly problematic because they're supposed to be the brothers of Helen of Troy, but she's the next generation, isn't she, if they're the generation before Troy? We'll just skim over that. So Castor and Polydeuces, who are good at boxing and they're good at horse riding.

And each of these heroes has a fun kind of talent. And one of them, there are two sons of Boreas. who are called Zetes and Palaeus, and they can fly. And they have purple wings. According to Pindar, they have purple wings. Now, they'll come into play when... Jason meets the harpies when they chase the harpies away. And Apollonius totally blows it.

And each of these heroes has a fun kind of talent. And one of them, there are two sons of Boreas. who are called Zetes and Palaeus, and they can fly. And they have purple wings. According to Pindar, they have purple wings. Now, they'll come into play when... Jason meets the harpies when they chase the harpies away. And Apollonius totally blows it.

He could have a great scene where they're flying after the harpies and stuff, but he just has them kind of ambiguously chasing the harpies. So those guys can fly. Then there's another guy I mentioned called Euphemus, and he's the son of Poseidon. He can walk on the water.

He could have a great scene where they're flying after the harpies and stuff, but he just has them kind of ambiguously chasing the harpies. So those guys can fly. Then there's another guy I mentioned called Euphemus, and he's the son of Poseidon. He can walk on the water.

Is that not cool? I mean, I can totally see a film of these guys. You know, two guys can fly with purple wings. One guy can walk on the water. And then you've got Orpheus, of course, who plays music so beautifully that when they come to the island of the sirens, instead of having to plug up their ears with wax like Odysseus, he can kind of play his music and overwhelm their siren song.

Is that not cool? I mean, I can totally see a film of these guys. You know, two guys can fly with purple wings. One guy can walk on the water. And then you've got Orpheus, of course, who plays music so beautifully that when they come to the island of the sirens, instead of having to plug up their ears with wax like Odysseus, he can kind of play his music and overwhelm their siren song.

Only one guy jumps in the water to get to them. So there's some really cool other heroes, I think. So I said Castor and Pollux, Orpheus, Heracles, Zetes and Callais, and of course, Euphemus, who can walk on water. And then Atalanta, according to some versions, but not in Apollonius' version.

Only one guy jumps in the water to get to them. So there's some really cool other heroes, I think. So I said Castor and Pollux, Orpheus, Heracles, Zetes and Callais, and of course, Euphemus, who can walk on water. And then Atalanta, according to some versions, but not in Apollonius' version.

Exactly. And I think I mentioned that I call this generation the Caledonian Argonauts. So a lot of them go on the Caledonian boar hunt, and she's one who went on the Caledonian boar hunt.

Exactly. And I think I mentioned that I call this generation the Caledonian Argonauts. So a lot of them go on the Caledonian boar hunt, and she's one who went on the Caledonian boar hunt.

and she could run super fast and she her father didn't want her to marry so he said or she didn't want to marry so she said you can only marry me if you can beat me in a race and the guy who beat her threw a golden apple three golden apples to distract her and managed to win the race that way so this is before she has run the race she's appears on a lot of greek vases

and she could run super fast and she her father didn't want her to marry so he said or she didn't want to marry so she said you can only marry me if you can beat me in a race and the guy who beat her threw a golden apple three golden apples to distract her and managed to win the race that way so this is before she has run the race she's appears on a lot of greek vases

wrestling Peleus, the father of Achilles. That's apparently some fun story that we've kind of lost, but it's on a lot of pots, Greek pots, so that's lots of fun. I talk about that in my book about the Greek gods and goddesses. Pantheon, she said, giving in a little plug for her book.

wrestling Peleus, the father of Achilles. That's apparently some fun story that we've kind of lost, but it's on a lot of pots, Greek pots, so that's lots of fun. I talk about that in my book about the Greek gods and goddesses. Pantheon, she said, giving in a little plug for her book.

This is a throwaway line in Apollonius. They stop on Samothrace and they're initiated into the Mysteries. Then they get to the famous clashing rocks because they're coming up to the Hellespont, which is a narrow channel of water that goes from the Aegean, I believe, into the Propontis and then the Black Sea.

This is a throwaway line in Apollonius. They stop on Samothrace and they're initiated into the Mysteries. Then they get to the famous clashing rocks because they're coming up to the Hellespont, which is a narrow channel of water that goes from the Aegean, I believe, into the Propontis and then the Black Sea.

And those are the famous clashing rocks, which Pindar describes as being alive, which is really good. And they're often confused with the rocks, the other rocks with Scylla and Charybdis down by Sicily. But these are clashing rocks. And again, that's done really in the film. It's huge fun. A giant triton comes up and holds the rocks apart. And there are other methods. They...

And those are the famous clashing rocks, which Pindar describes as being alive, which is really good. And they're often confused with the rocks, the other rocks with Scylla and Charybdis down by Sicily. But these are clashing rocks. And again, that's done really in the film. It's huge fun. A giant triton comes up and holds the rocks apart. And there are other methods. They...

Absolutely. And no other story from the Greek myth has been retold in as many different ways by as many different authors as Jason and the Argonauts. And it's one of my favorites. I think it started off being one of my favorites because of the 1963 film, Jason and the Argonauts, which is so cheesy, but it's so wonderful. And it's got amazing special effects by Ray Harryhausen.

Absolutely. And no other story from the Greek myth has been retold in as many different ways by as many different authors as Jason and the Argonauts. And it's one of my favorites. I think it started off being one of my favorites because of the 1963 film, Jason and the Argonauts, which is so cheesy, but it's so wonderful. And it's got amazing special effects by Ray Harryhausen.

In Apollonius, they let a dove through and the dove goes through and the rocks clash and just get its tail feathers. And then as they're opening again, they quickly row and get through that way. And again, they get their tail feathers kind of clipped off the very back of the ship. What's that called? The sternum. They get that clipped off. So that's the next fun bit. It's the clashing rocks.

In Apollonius, they let a dove through and the dove goes through and the rocks clash and just get its tail feathers. And then as they're opening again, they quickly row and get through that way. And again, they get their tail feathers kind of clipped off the very back of the ship. What's that called? The sternum. They get that clipped off. So that's the next fun bit. It's the clashing rocks.

But then we go to Propontis, which is a little mini sea before they get to the Black Sea. And a very sad thing happens here. They land on another island. And people there, Prince is called Sisychus. And he's young again with downy hair and a beautiful young wife. And they're very friendly. And they welcome the Argonauts. And they feast them. And they even let them spend the night with them.

But then we go to Propontis, which is a little mini sea before they get to the Black Sea. And a very sad thing happens here. They land on another island. And people there, Prince is called Sisychus. And he's young again with downy hair and a beautiful young wife. And they're very friendly. And they welcome the Argonauts. And they feast them. And they even let them spend the night with them.

The unmarried women, again, being very, very generous here. Argonauts are great. Everybody's happy in there. Bye-bye. So the Argonauts sail off. That night there's a terrible storm, which makes them run aground, and it's night. And when they get onto the beach, the people there start to attack them, and they fight back, and they kill the people who are attacking them.

The unmarried women, again, being very, very generous here. Argonauts are great. Everybody's happy in there. Bye-bye. So the Argonauts sail off. That night there's a terrible storm, which makes them run aground, and it's night. And when they get onto the beach, the people there start to attack them, and they fight back, and they kill the people who are attacking them.

And when dawn comes, they've killed their hosts from the day before. So young Sisychus has been murdered, and his wife is so destitute that she hangs herself. And they try to do funeral games in apology, but it's no good. They've killed their hosts from the day before. So they're kind of blundering around. You're getting the sense that they're blundering around.

And when dawn comes, they've killed their hosts from the day before. So young Sisychus has been murdered, and his wife is so destitute that she hangs herself. And they try to do funeral games in apology, but it's no good. They've killed their hosts from the day before. So they're kind of blundering around. You're getting the sense that they're blundering around.

Absolutely. I'm impressed, so impressed by your knowledge of geography. And this is what I'm saying. You've got the exotica of these traveling to these amazing places, but also the etiology. Oh, that's where it gets its name. That guy died there. So he's given his name to that place and now he'll always be memorialized with that name.

Absolutely. I'm impressed, so impressed by your knowledge of geography. And this is what I'm saying. You've got the exotica of these traveling to these amazing places, but also the etiology. Oh, that's where it gets its name. That guy died there. So he's given his name to that place and now he'll always be memorialized with that name.

So yeah, and we're getting more and more exotic and more and more strange things happen. And then they come to a really fun island or the place where Phineas the blind prophet lives. And of course, this is the story of the harpies. and how Phineas, again, he snubbed some god, I think it was Zeus, and Zeus punishes him by making him blind, but giving him prophetic powers.

So yeah, and we're getting more and more exotic and more and more strange things happen. And then they come to a really fun island or the place where Phineas the blind prophet lives. And of course, this is the story of the harpies. and how Phineas, again, he snubbed some god, I think it was Zeus, and Zeus punishes him by making him blind, but giving him prophetic powers.

So Phineas knows that Jason's going to come save him from the harpies, which are these horrible, Half women, half birds, who in some accounts have rooster heads and female bodies and claws. And they defecate and drip saliva everywhere. And they befoul all the food so that you can't even stand the smell. And when poor Phineas sits down to eat, they come and they befoul his food and take it away.

So Phineas knows that Jason's going to come save him from the harpies, which are these horrible, Half women, half birds, who in some accounts have rooster heads and female bodies and claws. And they defecate and drip saliva everywhere. And they befoul all the food so that you can't even stand the smell. And when poor Phineas sits down to eat, they come and they befoul his food and take it away.

Now, in the film, they do an amazing thing. And I'm sorry I keep harking on about the film, but it's so brilliant. They actually filmed it in Paestum, south of Pompeii, where there's some ancient Greek temples, Doric temples, Tuhira. And they actually have the actors climbing on one of these temples. They wouldn't be able to do it today. And they put a big net over it. And it's not CGI.

Now, in the film, they do an amazing thing. And I'm sorry I keep harking on about the film, but it's so brilliant. They actually filmed it in Paestum, south of Pompeii, where there's some ancient Greek temples, Doric temples, Tuhira. And they actually have the actors climbing on one of these temples. They wouldn't be able to do it today. And they put a big net over it. And it's not CGI.

It's a real net. The harpies are claymation, and they actually catch the harpies with this net. In Apollonius, this is where Zetes and Callias, the flying sons of Boreas, come in, and they chase the harpies, and they fly after them with their swords.

It's a real net. The harpies are claymation, and they actually catch the harpies with this net. In Apollonius, this is where Zetes and Callias, the flying sons of Boreas, come in, and they chase the harpies, and they fly after them with their swords.

all the way going west, west, west, west, west, to some islands called the Strophades, which are little islands off the left-hand side of Greece, which is the west, and where Aeneas will go. And that's where he's going to meet the Harpies later on. So they get to stop there. And Strophades actually means turning, the turning, because that's where Cetes and Callias turn around and fly back.

all the way going west, west, west, west, west, to some islands called the Strophades, which are little islands off the left-hand side of Greece, which is the west, and where Aeneas will go. And that's where he's going to meet the Harpies later on. So they get to stop there. And Strophades actually means turning, the turning, because that's where Cetes and Callias turn around and fly back.

including gods that grow in puffs of smoke and Jason being taken to Mount Olympus and put on a board like he's a little chess piece, and Talos, the bronze man who turns his head and chases them slowly around the island, and the skeletons that Jason has to fight. It's just so visually stunning. We watched it again last night, and it's just so cheesy and so fun.

including gods that grow in puffs of smoke and Jason being taken to Mount Olympus and put on a board like he's a little chess piece, and Talos, the bronze man who turns his head and chases them slowly around the island, and the skeletons that Jason has to fight. It's just so visually stunning. We watched it again last night, and it's just so cheesy and so fun.

with the Argonauts. So they've chased away the Harpies and there are different versions of the Harpies and what they're like and who Phineas was and everything. That's huge fun.

with the Argonauts. So they've chased away the Harpies and there are different versions of the Harpies and what they're like and who Phineas was and everything. That's huge fun.

Let's jump to Colchis. And of course, they arrive at Colchis, which is the end of the world. And there are various ways where they meet Medea. But in most of them, I'm afraid the gods have a part to play and make her fall in love with him so that she will help him. Now, at Colchis, the king of Colchis is Aetes, the king with too many E's in his name. A-E-E-T-E-S. Too many E's.

Let's jump to Colchis. And of course, they arrive at Colchis, which is the end of the world. And there are various ways where they meet Medea. But in most of them, I'm afraid the gods have a part to play and make her fall in love with him so that she will help him. Now, at Colchis, the king of Colchis is Aetes, the king with too many E's in his name. A-E-E-T-E-S. Too many E's.

And he's the father of a couple of daughters and a son named Absurtus and Medea is the youngest. And she's a priestess of Hecate. She's a sorceress, a witch. She's very young in Apollonius and quite vulnerable and very sympathetic. And she falls in love with Jason. So she's very torn about whether she should be loyal to support him or her father.

And he's the father of a couple of daughters and a son named Absurtus and Medea is the youngest. And she's a priestess of Hecate. She's a sorceress, a witch. She's very young in Apollonius and quite vulnerable and very sympathetic. And she falls in love with Jason. So she's very torn about whether she should be loyal to support him or her father.

And Ovid does this a lot, too, because Ovid and his metamorphoses really gets into Medea's head. And I think we were talking before that she, as soon as Medea appears, all the focus goes on her and away from poor Jason. She's so much more fascinating than Jason, who's quite bland at times. She falls in love with Jason because of his beauty.

And Ovid does this a lot, too, because Ovid and his metamorphoses really gets into Medea's head. And I think we were talking before that she, as soon as Medea appears, all the focus goes on her and away from poor Jason. She's so much more fascinating than Jason, who's quite bland at times. She falls in love with Jason because of his beauty.

And Aetes says, okay, you can have the golden fleece, but you must do this task. You must harness my bronze, two bronze bulls with breathe fire and sew some dragon's teeth. And if you can do that, I'll let you have the fleece. And of course, it's an impossible task, except that Medea gives him some special anointing oil to put on himself and his weapons to protect him from the flames.

And Aetes says, okay, you can have the golden fleece, but you must do this task. You must harness my bronze, two bronze bulls with breathe fire and sew some dragon's teeth. And if you can do that, I'll let you have the fleece. And of course, it's an impossible task, except that Medea gives him some special anointing oil to put on himself and his weapons to protect him from the flames.

And he's able to harness it. the fire-breathing bulls, and so the teeth, which go back to Cadmus, way back in Cadmus. Whole other story. The movie does a very clever thing. It has him kill the dragon, which doesn't happen in Apollonius, and then use those dragon's teeth to sew them. And of course, that's when these wonderful skeleton warriors pop up out of the ground.

And he's able to harness it. the fire-breathing bulls, and so the teeth, which go back to Cadmus, way back in Cadmus. Whole other story. The movie does a very clever thing. It has him kill the dragon, which doesn't happen in Apollonius, and then use those dragon's teeth to sew them. And of course, that's when these wonderful skeleton warriors pop up out of the ground.

But in most versions, most of the ancient versions, he has to do the plowing of the teeth first, and then Aeetes says he'll give him the fleece. But Aeetes does not give him the fleece, so he's got to get it by another method. Now you'd expect him to be a brave soldier, or rather not soldier, but warrior, and use his sword to kill the dragon and everything.

But in most versions, most of the ancient versions, he has to do the plowing of the teeth first, and then Aeetes says he'll give him the fleece. But Aeetes does not give him the fleece, so he's got to get it by another method. Now you'd expect him to be a brave soldier, or rather not soldier, but warrior, and use his sword to kill the dragon and everything.

The snake, Drakon, means the same thing. And it's described as being as big as the Argo. So this is not your ordinary snake or dragon. It's a snake as big as the Argo ship. What he does is Medea just uses a charm to put it to sleep, which is a little bit anticlimactic. And again, in the film, they make it a hydra and he stabs the hydra and kills it that way.

The snake, Drakon, means the same thing. And it's described as being as big as the Argo. So this is not your ordinary snake or dragon. It's a snake as big as the Argo ship. What he does is Medea just uses a charm to put it to sleep, which is a little bit anticlimactic. And again, in the film, they make it a hydra and he stabs the hydra and kills it that way.

He gets the fleece and now he's going to go home. So that happened pretty quickly, actually. A lot of it is the traveling there. And then they get there and it's slightly anticlimactic, except a lot of it's in Medea's head, her torturous inner debate about what she should do. And that's, of course, what makes it so fascinating and her so fascinating.

He gets the fleece and now he's going to go home. So that happened pretty quickly, actually. A lot of it is the traveling there. And then they get there and it's slightly anticlimactic, except a lot of it's in Medea's head, her torturous inner debate about what she should do. And that's, of course, what makes it so fascinating and her so fascinating.

But really, he's a very wonderful hero. And I think one of the reasons his story is the most retold is it's kind of the primal hero's journey narrative. And the hero's journey, as I'm sure you know, is when a hero goes on a quest to get a thing, which Alfred Hitchcock calls the MacGuffin. It's just something the hero goes for to get them on the journey and along the way they meet

But really, he's a very wonderful hero. And I think one of the reasons his story is the most retold is it's kind of the primal hero's journey narrative. And the hero's journey, as I'm sure you know, is when a hero goes on a quest to get a thing, which Alfred Hitchcock calls the MacGuffin. It's just something the hero goes for to get them on the journey and along the way they meet

They've got a long way to get back. And you're exactly right. It's not the thing they get. It's not the fleece, the MacGuffin, the magic potion, the sword, whatever, the princess. It's the journey that's important and what the hero learns and who he meets and who he fights and who he falls in love with and who he loses and who he mourns that's important.

They've got a long way to get back. And you're exactly right. It's not the thing they get. It's not the fleece, the MacGuffin, the magic potion, the sword, whatever, the princess. It's the journey that's important and what the hero learns and who he meets and who he fights and who he falls in love with and who he loses and who he mourns that's important.

And again, he'll come back to the he comes back to the same place at the end. And again, if you look at that wonderful map of his journey, he's going all over the place, including many across land. And so they're now they're warned by an oracle. Don't go back the way you came. So they decide to go by a different route. So they sail up the Danube.

And again, he'll come back to the he comes back to the same place at the end. And again, if you look at that wonderful map of his journey, he's going all over the place, including many across land. And so they're now they're warned by an oracle. Don't go back the way you came. So they decide to go by a different route. So they sail up the Danube.

They go up the Danube all the way across, whatever those are called, the Balkans or whatever, to the sea on the right of Italy, which is, I believe, called the Adriatic Sea.

They go up the Danube all the way across, whatever those are called, the Balkans or whatever, to the sea on the right of Italy, which is, I believe, called the Adriatic Sea.

Yeah, you've got your boot of Italy. They go to that bit there, the Adriatic. That's where they pop out. And their pursuers, Aetes takes, according to Apollonius, Aetes takes half the Colchian fleet and follows, goes back the way Jason came. But Absurtus, the younger brother, takes half the fleet and follows Jason across the Danube.

Yeah, you've got your boot of Italy. They go to that bit there, the Adriatic. That's where they pop out. And their pursuers, Aetes takes, according to Apollonius, Aetes takes half the Colchian fleet and follows, goes back the way Jason came. But Absurtus, the younger brother, takes half the fleet and follows Jason across the Danube.

And when they get to the Adriatic Sea, this is where, in Apollonius' version, Medea lures Absurtus to a talk. And Jason kills him. And then when he's dead, they go and kill everybody on his ship. And the rest of the fleet are so discouraged that they decide to not go home and just settle there. And that place is called the Absurdean Islands or something like that. Again, another etiological.

And when they get to the Adriatic Sea, this is where, in Apollonius' version, Medea lures Absurtus to a talk. And Jason kills him. And then when he's dead, they go and kill everybody on his ship. And the rest of the fleet are so discouraged that they decide to not go home and just settle there. And that place is called the Absurdean Islands or something like that. Again, another etiological.

How did these people from the Black Sea get to this part of near Italy? In Apollodorus' version, he's also writing in Greek at the end of the 1st century AD, he's the one who tells how Medea chops up her brother, takes him with him on the ship, chops him up in bits and tosses him in the sea so her father, who's pursuing them, stops to pick up the bits.

How did these people from the Black Sea get to this part of near Italy? In Apollodorus' version, he's also writing in Greek at the end of the 1st century AD, he's the one who tells how Medea chops up her brother, takes him with him on the ship, chops him up in bits and tosses him in the sea so her father, who's pursuing them, stops to pick up the bits.

So there are different variations on how absurdus is used as a kind of terrible distraction.

So there are different variations on how absurdus is used as a kind of terrible distraction.

Absolutely right. They start off with the most noble of motives and they deteriorate as they go along the way. And Jason, again, is often shown to be indecisive in Apollonius' version. And we also, as you say, get this focus on some of the other characters like Medea or on some of the other heroes who, again, have an etiological function to perform. But this is a terrible thing they've done.

Absolutely right. They start off with the most noble of motives and they deteriorate as they go along the way. And Jason, again, is often shown to be indecisive in Apollonius' version. And we also, as you say, get this focus on some of the other characters like Medea or on some of the other heroes who, again, have an etiological function to perform. But this is a terrible thing they've done.

It's such a terrible thing. Killing ordinary people is bad, but killing your own flesh and blood is abhorrent to the gods and they need purification. So they're now told that they need to go to see Circe on her island and that she will cleanse them from purification. So this is quite surprising.

It's such a terrible thing. Killing ordinary people is bad, but killing your own flesh and blood is abhorrent to the gods and they need purification. So they're now told that they need to go to see Circe on her island and that she will cleanse them from purification. So this is quite surprising.

Circe's the witch, of course, who had Odysseus on her island for quite a while and did lots of fun things with him. But she is now the one who can purify them. So they've now got to go to the home of Circe somewhere off the western coast of Italy. So that's another one of the tropes, the cleansing of Absurtus's murder by Jason and Medea.

Circe's the witch, of course, who had Odysseus on her island for quite a while and did lots of fun things with him. But she is now the one who can purify them. So they've now got to go to the home of Circe somewhere off the western coast of Italy. So that's another one of the tropes, the cleansing of Absurtus's murder by Jason and Medea.

allies and opponents and they undergo tests and trials and they finally return back home and they've learned what they need to learn and the hero's journey of course is joseph campbell coined that phrase and said that all world myths can be summed up in this cycle the hero's journey and then hollywood screenwriters just ran with it george lucas was the first to take

allies and opponents and they undergo tests and trials and they finally return back home and they've learned what they need to learn and the hero's journey of course is joseph campbell coined that phrase and said that all world myths can be summed up in this cycle the hero's journey and then hollywood screenwriters just ran with it george lucas was the first to take

They then sail up the river Eridamus, which is the Po, and then they go over the Alps somehow. Don't ask me how. Down the Rhône, the Rhône River, and then down by the Tyrrhenian Sea. That's where they meet Circe, according to Apollonius. Then they're going down to the home of the Sirens, which is down on the shin of Italy, again in the Tyrrhenian Sea.

They then sail up the river Eridamus, which is the Po, and then they go over the Alps somehow. Don't ask me how. Down the Rhône, the Rhône River, and then down by the Tyrrhenian Sea. That's where they meet Circe, according to Apollonius. Then they're going down to the home of the Sirens, which is down on the shin of Italy, again in the Tyrrhenian Sea.

Then they go through Scylla and Charybdis, and they go up to Drapane. I'm looking at the map here because there's no other way to understand it. Drapane is, again, near Albania or maybe Corfu. Then they sail down to Syrtis, and that's how they get to North Africa.

Then they go through Scylla and Charybdis, and they go up to Drapane. I'm looking at the map here because there's no other way to understand it. Drapane is, again, near Albania or maybe Corfu. Then they sail down to Syrtis, and that's how they get to North Africa.

They get blown off course, and that's where Jason meets three nymphs, the guardians of Libya, and he's instructed to carry the Argo across the desert. And then they go to Lake Triton, which is where they meet Triton, the son of Poseidon, who reveals a secret passage back to the sea. We're almost done here. You'll be glad to hear the end is in sight.

They get blown off course, and that's where Jason meets three nymphs, the guardians of Libya, and he's instructed to carry the Argo across the desert. And then they go to Lake Triton, which is where they meet Triton, the son of Poseidon, who reveals a secret passage back to the sea. We're almost done here. You'll be glad to hear the end is in sight.

Now we get one of the best bits where they go to Crete and they meet Talos, the bronze man. And he is amazing. And in the film, Jason and the Argonauts, he appears at the very beginning. And there's this amazing scene of, I don't know if you've ever seen it, but he's like this giant bronze crouching statue on a treasure house.

Now we get one of the best bits where they go to Crete and they meet Talos, the bronze man. And he is amazing. And in the film, Jason and the Argonauts, he appears at the very beginning. And there's this amazing scene of, I don't know if you've ever seen it, but he's like this giant bronze crouching statue on a treasure house.

And when Heracles steals a golden pin, his head turns with a horrible metallic creaking and he gets down off his plinth and follows them. Like if you can imagine the Colossus of Rhodes, a great gigantic bronze statue. clomping after tiny ant-like men. It's absolutely brilliant, chilling, fantastic.

And when Heracles steals a golden pin, his head turns with a horrible metallic creaking and he gets down off his plinth and follows them. Like if you can imagine the Colossus of Rhodes, a great gigantic bronze statue. clomping after tiny ant-like men. It's absolutely brilliant, chilling, fantastic.

And in the film, Jason conquers him by unplugging a plug in his heel and letting out the ichor, the magic juice or blood. But in Apollonius... He's vanquished by Medea, who from a distance from the ship gives him the evil eye using magical incantations and calling down spirits of death. And she uses her eye beams and curses him.

And in the film, Jason conquers him by unplugging a plug in his heel and letting out the ichor, the magic juice or blood. But in Apollonius... He's vanquished by Medea, who from a distance from the ship gives him the evil eye using magical incantations and calling down spirits of death. And she uses her eye beams and curses him.

And he then scratches his vulnerable ankle vein on a rock and the ichor flows out. He crashes to the ground like a great pine tree. coming down at night on the top of a mountain. So he's a wonderful character. Thales, there are different origins for him. One is that Hephaestus made him. And I like the origin that he's made to guard the island of Crete, which he can run around three times each day.

And he then scratches his vulnerable ankle vein on a rock and the ichor flows out. He crashes to the ground like a great pine tree. coming down at night on the top of a mountain. So he's a wonderful character. Thales, there are different origins for him. One is that Hephaestus made him. And I like the origin that he's made to guard the island of Crete, which he can run around three times each day.

And he even appears on coins of Crete, this giant bronze man. So he's huge fun. We only have one more thing to happen. before they get home. And that's this really spooky kind of incident where after they leave Crete, this terrible darkness comes down upon them and they can't see where they are. And it's the worst darkness. It's like worse than death.

And he even appears on coins of Crete, this giant bronze man. So he's huge fun. We only have one more thing to happen. before they get home. And that's this really spooky kind of incident where after they leave Crete, this terrible darkness comes down upon them and they can't see where they are. And it's the worst darkness. It's like worse than death.

And Jason and his men pray to Apollo, who lights the night with his flashing arrows until dawn comes. And they find themselves on this little island and they're nearly home. And finally they get home.

And Jason and his men pray to Apollo, who lights the night with his flashing arrows until dawn comes. And they find themselves on this little island and they're nearly home. And finally they get home.

the idea of the hero's journey and make it into Star Wars. And then another guy, Christopher Vogler, wrote a book called The Writer's Journey. And then Blake Snyder, another Hollywood screenwriter, actually coined a genre, the Golden Fleece Story, which is the hero's journey. So he actually calls it the Golden Fleece genre, where the hero goes on a quest to get a thing and comes home again.

the idea of the hero's journey and make it into Star Wars. And then another guy, Christopher Vogler, wrote a book called The Writer's Journey. And then Blake Snyder, another Hollywood screenwriter, actually coined a genre, the Golden Fleece Story, which is the hero's journey. So he actually calls it the Golden Fleece genre, where the hero goes on a quest to get a thing and comes home again.

Guess how long that whole journey takes.

Guess how long that whole journey takes.

According to Apollodorus, our latest source, four months. I think it'd be fun to do that, to actually follow in the steps of Jason. And it would probably take you about four months to do that, stopping along all those wonderful places.

According to Apollodorus, our latest source, four months. I think it'd be fun to do that, to actually follow in the steps of Jason. And it would probably take you about four months to do that, stopping along all those wonderful places.

Too many E's in his name.

Too many E's in his name.

You've done it brilliantly. It's essentially a Mediterranean tour, isn't it?

You've done it brilliantly. It's essentially a Mediterranean tour, isn't it?

And Black Sea, yeah, absolutely.

And Black Sea, yeah, absolutely.

Not really. I think he's got to go to Corinth for some reason, and he can't even have his kingdom. And of course, then that's where he meets another woman and he abandons Medea or wants to marry this other woman. And I think that's a whole other story that many people know so much better than I do. But shall I just tell you about his death?

Not really. I think he's got to go to Corinth for some reason, and he can't even have his kingdom. And of course, then that's where he meets another woman and he abandons Medea or wants to marry this other woman. And I think that's a whole other story that many people know so much better than I do. But shall I just tell you about his death?

No, it's quite sad. He's an old man and he goes to remember his glory days and he sits under the Argo in the shade of the Argo and a bit falls off and bonks him on the head and he dies. That's kind of how I want to go. Just sitting under and bonked on the head. But I'm gone.

No, it's quite sad. He's an old man and he goes to remember his glory days and he sits under the Argo in the shade of the Argo and a bit falls off and bonks him on the head and he dies. That's kind of how I want to go. Just sitting under and bonked on the head. But I'm gone.

Yeah, he's broken definitely after what happened with Medea and his own weakness. And that's a fascinating thing about the Greek heroes is they're often anti-heroes. They're like us. And that's, I think, one of the reasons that makes them so enduringly fascinating and popular.

Yeah, he's broken definitely after what happened with Medea and his own weakness. And that's a fascinating thing about the Greek heroes is they're often anti-heroes. They're like us. And that's, I think, one of the reasons that makes them so enduringly fascinating and popular.

I think it has. And I think many of these Greek myths have. But as we were saying at the beginning, this is the quintessential hero's journey with lots of adventures along the way and lots of lessons to be learned.

I think it has. And I think many of these Greek myths have. But as we were saying at the beginning, this is the quintessential hero's journey with lots of adventures along the way and lots of lessons to be learned.

It's called Pantheon, a companion to the Greek and Roman gods and goddesses. And it's got lots of little fun facts.

It's called Pantheon, a companion to the Greek and Roman gods and goddesses. And it's got lots of little fun facts.

Thank you. It's been really fun.

Thank you. It's been really fun.

Yes, you get the single hero, the lone hero, you know, who goes off on his own, maybe with gadgets like Perseus. You know, he's got lots of gadgets to help him. And Heracles has his weapons. But Jason is fun because he gathers allies, a bit like Neo in The Matrix, who actually goes on a ship called the Argo and has pals with him. That's a fun aspect that there are all these different helpers.

Yes, you get the single hero, the lone hero, you know, who goes off on his own, maybe with gadgets like Perseus. You know, he's got lots of gadgets to help him. And Heracles has his weapons. But Jason is fun because he gathers allies, a bit like Neo in The Matrix, who actually goes on a ship called the Argo and has pals with him. That's a fun aspect that there are all these different helpers.

It's a team exercise, but also that the Greeks were so interested in their world. And in this, Jason sails to these amazing places. that they might or might not have heard of. And actually, the journey always changes as people, the poets keep retelling it and get more knowledge of the geography. They get more and more accurate about where he's going. And so it's kind of a travelogue, really.

It's a team exercise, but also that the Greeks were so interested in their world. And in this, Jason sails to these amazing places. that they might or might not have heard of. And actually, the journey always changes as people, the poets keep retelling it and get more knowledge of the geography. They get more and more accurate about where he's going. And so it's kind of a travelogue, really.

You can travel and go to these amazing places and meet amazing characters. So I think those are fascinating. And there's also an etiological element. That's, of course, explaining how things came to be. For example, how certain races of people founded different cities. If we have time, I'll tell you about Euphemus later on, one of the Argonauts who has a really fascinating story.

You can travel and go to these amazing places and meet amazing characters. So I think those are fascinating. And there's also an etiological element. That's, of course, explaining how things came to be. For example, how certain races of people founded different cities. If we have time, I'll tell you about Euphemus later on, one of the Argonauts who has a really fascinating story.

Well, yeah. And in a way, all of Greek mythology is this spider web of connections and interconnections. And what's really interesting about Jason is that he's the generation before the Iliad. So he's what I called the Caledonian Argonauts. They went on the Caledonian boar hunt and they went on the Argo. And they're often the fathers, like Peleus, the father of Achilles, is on the Argo with Jason.

Well, yeah. And in a way, all of Greek mythology is this spider web of connections and interconnections. And what's really interesting about Jason is that he's the generation before the Iliad. So he's what I called the Caledonian Argonauts. They went on the Caledonian boar hunt and they went on the Argo. And they're often the fathers, like Peleus, the father of Achilles, is on the Argo with Jason.

So We haven't yet had the Trojan War. And in fact, Jason was raised by Chiron the centaur. And when he sets off on his quest, he waves bye-bye to Chiron, who's holding little baby Achilles, because of course, Chiron teaches Achilles. Chiron the centaur is the great teacher and kind of mentor. So that's really fun.

So We haven't yet had the Trojan War. And in fact, Jason was raised by Chiron the centaur. And when he sets off on his quest, he waves bye-bye to Chiron, who's holding little baby Achilles, because of course, Chiron teaches Achilles. Chiron the centaur is the great teacher and kind of mentor. So that's really fun.

And I think that that's something to keep in mind, that these are the generations before the Trojan War, and then we're going to get all these subsequent fantastic stories.

And I think that that's something to keep in mind, that these are the generations before the Trojan War, and then we're going to get all these subsequent fantastic stories.

I'm glad you asked. I think it's probably got an oral tradition, as the Iliad and the Odyssey did, so a lot of oral stuff was already there. Almost everybody mentions him, but let me just tell you who the six main, I found six main poets. We've got Pindar in the 6th century BC, tells about the quest. Herodotus in the 5th century BC. Callimachus, the 4th century BC.

I'm glad you asked. I think it's probably got an oral tradition, as the Iliad and the Odyssey did, so a lot of oral stuff was already there. Almost everybody mentions him, but let me just tell you who the six main, I found six main poets. We've got Pindar in the 6th century BC, tells about the quest. Herodotus in the 5th century BC. Callimachus, the 4th century BC.

Apollonius Rhodius in the 3rd century. Diodorus Siculus in the 1st century BC. Then you go to the Roman. You've got Ovid and Valerius Flaccus. Ovid kind of straddles the two centuries. Valerius Flaccus was a Flavian author who wrote a version called the Argonautica as well in Latin. And finally, we've got Apollodorus, who does a really succinct kind of summary at the end of the first century.

Apollonius Rhodius in the 3rd century. Diodorus Siculus in the 1st century BC. Then you go to the Roman. You've got Ovid and Valerius Flaccus. Ovid kind of straddles the two centuries. Valerius Flaccus was a Flavian author who wrote a version called the Argonautica as well in Latin. And finally, we've got Apollodorus, who does a really succinct kind of summary at the end of the first century.

So they all told the quest, but the earliest mention we get is in the Iliad, where Homer actually mentions Jason's son, which is really fun. He doesn't mention the quest. He just says, Many ships were there from Lemnos, bearing wine, sent forth by Jason's son Euneus, whom Hypsipyle bore to Jason, shepherd of the host.

So they all told the quest, but the earliest mention we get is in the Iliad, where Homer actually mentions Jason's son, which is really fun. He doesn't mention the quest. He just says, Many ships were there from Lemnos, bearing wine, sent forth by Jason's son Euneus, whom Hypsipyle bore to Jason, shepherd of the host.

Now that's a really interesting little epithet that's given to Jason, the shepherd of the host. And it's also used by Hesiod, who's about the same time as Homer, who mentions Jason marrying Medea and also calls him a shepherd of the people or shepherd of the host.

Now that's a really interesting little epithet that's given to Jason, the shepherd of the host. And it's also used by Hesiod, who's about the same time as Homer, who mentions Jason marrying Medea and also calls him a shepherd of the people or shepherd of the host.

And then you also get a mention in the Odyssey, one line, that the Argo was the only ship that ever went through the clashing rocks safely. They've got the little snippets that show that in the 8th century, they knew about him, but the first complete story of the quest is from Pindar. One of his Pythianodes, the fourth Pythianode, often considered his best.

And then you also get a mention in the Odyssey, one line, that the Argo was the only ship that ever went through the clashing rocks safely. They've got the little snippets that show that in the 8th century, they knew about him, but the first complete story of the quest is from Pindar. One of his Pythianodes, the fourth Pythianode, often considered his best.

And that's in, actually, we know the exact date of that. It's 462 BCE is the date of the fourth Pythianode that first tells the story of Jason. And it's got some of the basic elements in it, but not all.

And that's in, actually, we know the exact date of that. It's 462 BCE is the date of the fourth Pythianode that first tells the story of Jason. And it's got some of the basic elements in it, but not all.

Yeah, it does. It does. What it does is it stays pretty much the same. You've got the tropes, but they will emphasize what they want to emphasize for their political... One thing I realized is that poets were political in the past, that the fourth Pythian Ode was actually written, probably commissioned by a man who wanted to be reinstated in favor with a certain king.

Yeah, it does. It does. What it does is it stays pretty much the same. You've got the tropes, but they will emphasize what they want to emphasize for their political... One thing I realized is that poets were political in the past, that the fourth Pythian Ode was actually written, probably commissioned by a man who wanted to be reinstated in favor with a certain king.

So he got Pindar to write this ode to the king who'd won a chariot race with hints of, you know, I'm your pal, reinstate me. And of course, we know that Virgil wrote the Aeneid to promote Octavian, who became Augustus. And so there's a lot of political stuff in the retellings. And then you get different flavors according to their tastes.

So he got Pindar to write this ode to the king who'd won a chariot race with hints of, you know, I'm your pal, reinstate me. And of course, we know that Virgil wrote the Aeneid to promote Octavian, who became Augustus. And so there's a lot of political stuff in the retellings. And then you get different flavors according to their tastes.

For example, Apollonius Rhodius, who's the Hellenistic writer in the so-called Alexandrian style, which apparently means fancy schmancy, showing off your knowledge.

For example, Apollonius Rhodius, who's the Hellenistic writer in the so-called Alexandrian style, which apparently means fancy schmancy, showing off your knowledge.

He is the 3rd century BC. Yeah. 2nd century BC. Yeah. He's right in around 250 BC. So apparently he writes the best Medea, apart from Euripides, of course. He writes a really good Medea, but his Jason is insipid. Whereas Valerius Flaccus is said to write a really good Jason, but Medea is kind of skimmed over. So they show their interest, but they play with the same basic tropes.

He is the 3rd century BC. Yeah. 2nd century BC. Yeah. He's right in around 250 BC. So apparently he writes the best Medea, apart from Euripides, of course. He writes a really good Medea, but his Jason is insipid. Whereas Valerius Flaccus is said to write a really good Jason, but Medea is kind of skimmed over. So they show their interest, but they play with the same basic tropes.

And that's what I think all of those who retell the myths today do. We take these basic building blocks of each myth and we emphasize the one that we want to promote our own views with.

And that's what I think all of those who retell the myths today do. We take these basic building blocks of each myth and we emphasize the one that we want to promote our own views with.

Yeah, well, he's great. He's often introduced, grown up, and then we have a little flashback to him. And in, I think, probably the best, one of the most famous accounts is Apollonius of Rhodes, the one who wrote around 250 BC, his Argonautica. He starts off with Jason arrives with one sandal, essentially. So let me just tell you basically first what

Yeah, well, he's great. He's often introduced, grown up, and then we have a little flashback to him. And in, I think, probably the best, one of the most famous accounts is Apollonius of Rhodes, the one who wrote around 250 BC, his Argonautica. He starts off with Jason arrives with one sandal, essentially. So let me just tell you basically first what

the kind of essence of Jason is, what his basic story was. All the traditions agree that Jason is a hero who goes with a bunch of other heroes called the Argonauts to get a fleece from a faraway country called Colchis. the country of Aetes, father of Medea. He's got to overcome lots of tasks and he's got to get the fleece from the dragon and bring it back to claim his kingdom.

the kind of essence of Jason is, what his basic story was. All the traditions agree that Jason is a hero who goes with a bunch of other heroes called the Argonauts to get a fleece from a faraway country called Colchis. the country of Aetes, father of Medea. He's got to overcome lots of tasks and he's got to get the fleece from the dragon and bring it back to claim his kingdom.

So that's the kind of basic account. And most of the accounts give Jason 50 heroes on his journey. One or two give him 100. But he sails in a pentaconter, a ship with 50 oars. So it makes sense that you've got 50 heroes, one for each oar. And his name is interesting. It means healer or atoner. And it's actually linked to the word, the name Jesus in some accounts. or Joshua. So that's interesting.

So that's the kind of basic account. And most of the accounts give Jason 50 heroes on his journey. One or two give him 100. But he sails in a pentaconter, a ship with 50 oars. So it makes sense that you've got 50 heroes, one for each oar. And his name is interesting. It means healer or atoner. And it's actually linked to the word, the name Jesus in some accounts. or Joshua. So that's interesting.

And he's the son of Eson, grandson of Cruthias, and he's the heir to the throne of Iolcus, which is kind of In Greece and Thessaly, and if you imagine Athens and Olympia up north, halfway between, kind of on the coast there, that's Thessaly, and it's now a place called Volos.

And he's the son of Eson, grandson of Cruthias, and he's the heir to the throne of Iolcus, which is kind of In Greece and Thessaly, and if you imagine Athens and Olympia up north, halfway between, kind of on the coast there, that's Thessaly, and it's now a place called Volos.

So he's going to set out from Colchis, go to the end of the world, which is essentially he's going to go to Colchis, which is the Black Sea. That's that big body of water above Turkey on the right-hand side. I'm not good with east and west, so the very right-hand side. Go there. through all sorts of places, and then come back again. So that's his most basic story.

So he's going to set out from Colchis, go to the end of the world, which is essentially he's going to go to Colchis, which is the Black Sea. That's that big body of water above Turkey on the right-hand side. I'm not good with east and west, so the very right-hand side. Go there. through all sorts of places, and then come back again. So that's his most basic story.

And we start off with him arriving with one sandal. And the ruler of Eolkus, who's, I think, his uncle, Pelias, which should be his kingdom, has been warned about the one-sandaled man. Now, some of the accounts are really fun. They have Jason just losing the sandal as he crosses a river. One account has Jason...

And we start off with him arriving with one sandal. And the ruler of Eolkus, who's, I think, his uncle, Pelias, which should be his kingdom, has been warned about the one-sandaled man. Now, some of the accounts are really fun. They have Jason just losing the sandal as he crosses a river. One account has Jason...

saving an old woman in a river who's actually Hera in disguise, and he loses his sandal that way. So that shows he's kind and good and noble, and Hera likes him and she's going to be his helper. Unusually, because Hera is usually the enemy of most heroes.

saving an old woman in a river who's actually Hera in disguise, and he loses his sandal that way. So that shows he's kind and good and noble, and Hera likes him and she's going to be his helper. Unusually, because Hera is usually the enemy of most heroes.

Very unusual. And in the great film, there's a little twist in the film of Jason and the Argonauts where she appears on the riverbank and makes Plius, the evil king, fall in the water and Jason rescues him. And when they come out, Plius looks down and sees he only has one sandal. So that's a really good twist. So that's the first trope is the prophecy about the man will come.

Very unusual. And in the great film, there's a little twist in the film of Jason and the Argonauts where she appears on the riverbank and makes Plius, the evil king, fall in the water and Jason rescues him. And when they come out, Plius looks down and sees he only has one sandal. So that's a really good twist. So that's the first trope is the prophecy about the man will come.

Zeus is going to factor, as we know, big in all the myths because he's always desiring nymphs, girls, women, goddesses, whatever. Sure enough, he spotted Io and desired her. And he went to seduce her or whatever. And then he heard Hera coming. So he quickly turned Io into a heifer so that Hera wouldn't be suspicious. But Hera was not fooled.

Zeus is going to factor, as we know, big in all the myths because he's always desiring nymphs, girls, women, goddesses, whatever. Sure enough, he spotted Io and desired her. And he went to seduce her or whatever. And then he heard Hera coming. So he quickly turned Io into a heifer so that Hera wouldn't be suspicious. But Hera was not fooled.

And she set a god's lie to torment this poor heifer, Io, who was running all over the place. So already in Europa's ancestry, we've got a great-great-grandmother who was turned into a cow. Then Europa... was, as I said, she's a Phoenician princess playing on the seashore one day. Zeus spots her and likes her. So he takes the form of a beautiful bull and goes along the beach.

And she set a god's lie to torment this poor heifer, Io, who was running all over the place. So already in Europa's ancestry, we've got a great-great-grandmother who was turned into a cow. Then Europa... was, as I said, she's a Phoenician princess playing on the seashore one day. Zeus spots her and likes her. So he takes the form of a beautiful bull and goes along the beach.

And she comes up to him because he's so beautiful. And he lets her stroke him. And all the girls she's with are amazed that she's so bold. And then she actually climbs on his back. And off he goes over the sea and ends up in Crete. So he takes Europa to Crete, and that's where we get the term Europe, though Crete, what do we call Crete Europe? I don't know. So anyway, they have three sons.

And she comes up to him because he's so beautiful. And he lets her stroke him. And all the girls she's with are amazed that she's so bold. And then she actually climbs on his back. And off he goes over the sea and ends up in Crete. So he takes Europa to Crete, and that's where we get the term Europe, though Crete, what do we call Crete Europe? I don't know. So anyway, they have three sons.

Zeus and Europa have three sons, Minos, Radamanthus, and Sarpedon. And as sons do, they all vie with each other for the kingship and Essentially, Minos sends the other two off to somewhere else where they found other places. But Minos still has to legitimize his claim to the throne of Crete for the kingship.

Zeus and Europa have three sons, Minos, Radamanthus, and Sarpedon. And as sons do, they all vie with each other for the kingship and Essentially, Minos sends the other two off to somewhere else where they found other places. But Minos still has to legitimize his claim to the throne of Crete for the kingship.

So he says to everybody, look, I'm going to call on Poseidon, or in some cases Zeus, but mainly Poseidon, most of the myths. to show you that I am the chosen one. Poseidon, send me a bull from the sea." Sure enough, Poseidon sends him a bull from the sea and we've still got the cow motif going on here. It was so beautiful and Minos said, I will sacrifice this bull to you, of course, Poseidon.

So he says to everybody, look, I'm going to call on Poseidon, or in some cases Zeus, but mainly Poseidon, most of the myths. to show you that I am the chosen one. Poseidon, send me a bull from the sea." Sure enough, Poseidon sends him a bull from the sea and we've still got the cow motif going on here. It was so beautiful and Minos said, I will sacrifice this bull to you, of course, Poseidon.

The bull is so beautiful that he cannot bear to sacrifice it. He puts it into his herd and gets an inferior substitute and sacrifices that. Uh-oh indeed.

The bull is so beautiful that he cannot bear to sacrifice it. He puts it into his herd and gets an inferior substitute and sacrifices that. Uh-oh indeed.

Not a good idea. And these monsters often come as a result of some crime against the gods or hubris or something. So Poseidon is not happy, and he's furious, and as punishment, he arranges for Pasiphae, the wife of Minos, to fall in love with that bull. So Peisiphae is trying to think about how she can get it on with that bull.

Not a good idea. And these monsters often come as a result of some crime against the gods or hubris or something. So Poseidon is not happy, and he's furious, and as punishment, he arranges for Pasiphae, the wife of Minos, to fall in love with that bull. So Peisiphae is trying to think about how she can get it on with that bull.

And she asks an exile from Athens named Daedalus, the very clever inventor, if he can come up with an idea. And he comes up. He makes a hollow frame of a cow, covers it with cowhide, and she can hide inside. so that she can mate with the bull. So that's one of his inventions.

And she asks an exile from Athens named Daedalus, the very clever inventor, if he can come up with an idea. And he comes up. He makes a hollow frame of a cow, covers it with cowhide, and she can hide inside. so that she can mate with the bull. So that's one of his inventions.

And nine months later, a little baby is born, and that baby has the body of a child, according to most depictions and accounts, and the head of a bull.

And nine months later, a little baby is born, and that baby has the body of a child, according to most depictions and accounts, and the head of a bull.

Tristan, it is wonderful to be here.

Tristan, it is wonderful to be here.

Exactly. And now this baby is born and we have a wonderful vase that's in Paris at the moment. And it shows Paisa Phi with a little toddler Minos on her lap. And he's got little horns. And I think they suckled kids till they were quite old, like four or five and even older sometimes. in that period. And at first you think, oh, she loves her little baby, her little Minotaur.

Exactly. And now this baby is born and we have a wonderful vase that's in Paris at the moment. And it shows Paisa Phi with a little toddler Minos on her lap. And he's got little horns. And I think they suckled kids till they were quite old, like four or five and even older sometimes. in that period. And at first you think, oh, she loves her little baby, her little Minotaur.

But if you look closely, her mouth is turned down and she's not quite touching him. And so I wonder if there's something of a revulsion. She thinks, what have I done? And her husband Minos, of course, he's married to this woman and she gives birth to this monster. He's horrified. And he consults an oracle and

But if you look closely, her mouth is turned down and she's not quite touching him. And so I wonder if there's something of a revulsion. She thinks, what have I done? And her husband Minos, of course, he's married to this woman and she gives birth to this monster. He's horrified. And he consults an oracle and

He doesn't just kill it because it's obviously, you know, there's something special about this creature. He doesn't just kill it. He consults an oracle and the oracle says to hide him away and put him in a labyrinth. So he gets Daedalus, again, the inventor, and the labyrinth is designed by Daedalus himself. to keep the bull hidden, this monster minotaur hidden away from human sight.

He doesn't just kill it because it's obviously, you know, there's something special about this creature. He doesn't just kill it. He consults an oracle and the oracle says to hide him away and put him in a labyrinth. So he gets Daedalus, again, the inventor, and the labyrinth is designed by Daedalus himself. to keep the bull hidden, this monster minotaur hidden away from human sight.

And because it's an aberration, it's not natural, it can't eat hay or straw or grass like a bull, so it must be fed human flesh. So of course, according to the myth, the Athenians for various reasons have to send Nine boys and girls every seven years, or seven boys and girls every nine years, something like that, as tribute to this minotaur.

And because it's an aberration, it's not natural, it can't eat hay or straw or grass like a bull, so it must be fed human flesh. So of course, according to the myth, the Athenians for various reasons have to send Nine boys and girls every seven years, or seven boys and girls every nine years, something like that, as tribute to this minotaur.

Absolutely. I'm afraid I couldn't fit everybody into my book, and he does not make it into my book really. But of course, apparently he committed some crime in Athens and they exiled him and he fled to Crete. He was incredibly clever. The first thing he created was this cow for Pasiphae. Then he created the labyrinth, but they kept him prisoner so that he wouldn't tell.

Absolutely. I'm afraid I couldn't fit everybody into my book, and he does not make it into my book really. But of course, apparently he committed some crime in Athens and they exiled him and he fled to Crete. He was incredibly clever. The first thing he created was this cow for Pasiphae. Then he created the labyrinth, but they kept him prisoner so that he wouldn't tell.

Minos didn't want him to get out and say what he'd created, so they kept him and his son Icarus prisoner. We all know the story that he devised a clever way to escape by making wings of light wood or reed with wax and feathers and designed these beautiful wings.

Minos didn't want him to get out and say what he'd created, so they kept him and his son Icarus prisoner. We all know the story that he devised a clever way to escape by making wings of light wood or reed with wax and feathers and designed these beautiful wings.

Absolutely. Yeah, they're a wonderful part of Greek mythology. I think one of the things that we love about Greek myths are the amazing images that you don't get in any other culture or storytelling or scenario. And I just, you know, when I think of Greek myths, I think of things like a giant wooden horse standing in the middle of a flaming city. Who thought that up? That's amazing.

Absolutely. Yeah, they're a wonderful part of Greek mythology. I think one of the things that we love about Greek myths are the amazing images that you don't get in any other culture or storytelling or scenario. And I just, you know, when I think of Greek myths, I think of things like a giant wooden horse standing in the middle of a flaming city. Who thought that up? That's amazing.

Again, an extraordinary idea that even back then, they had a craving, an idea of how you could fly, and they had certain gods who could fly. And of course, Hermes, the messenger god, could fly. But anyway, Icarus makes the wings, and we all know the story of how he warns his son not to go too high because... He thinks the sun might melt the wax.

Again, an extraordinary idea that even back then, they had a craving, an idea of how you could fly, and they had certain gods who could fly. And of course, Hermes, the messenger god, could fly. But anyway, Icarus makes the wings, and we all know the story of how he warns his son not to go too high because... He thinks the sun might melt the wax.

Sure enough, Icarus goes high, the wax melts, and he plunges into the sea, which is called the Icarian Sea from then on after him.

Sure enough, Icarus goes high, the wax melts, and he plunges into the sea, which is called the Icarian Sea from then on after him.

Oh no, we know that. What's fascinating is that the Greeks have the word labyrinth, and they know what it means. Plato, in one of his dialogues, he says something about has Socrates say, at this point, we were involved in a labyrinthine discussion. So they know what it means. And they saw coins from Crete, which have a maze on them on one side, going way back. Of course, the Cretan civilization

Oh no, we know that. What's fascinating is that the Greeks have the word labyrinth, and they know what it means. Plato, in one of his dialogues, he says something about has Socrates say, at this point, we were involved in a labyrinthine discussion. So they know what it means. And they saw coins from Crete, which have a maze on them on one side, going way back. Of course, the Cretan civilization

had gone by about, I believe, about 1400 BC. It was a Bronze Age civilization. The Mycenaeans invaded. Then Crete was gone. There was eruption of Thera or whatever. And so this was a dim memory to the Greeks. But they kept seeing these coins with a maze on it. And these were coins of Knossos. And

had gone by about, I believe, about 1400 BC. It was a Bronze Age civilization. The Mycenaeans invaded. Then Crete was gone. There was eruption of Thera or whatever. And so this was a dim memory to the Greeks. But they kept seeing these coins with a maze on it. And these were coins of Knossos. And

In about the late 1800s, a couple of archaeologists decided to start digging where they found these coins. And they found, famously, in fact, Arthur Evans, rich Englishman, he bought part of Crete, this area in Crete, and started digging and found the ruins of this enormous palace complex. which looks like a labyrinth when you see it laid out. And it had no walls.

In about the late 1800s, a couple of archaeologists decided to start digging where they found these coins. And they found, famously, in fact, Arthur Evans, rich Englishman, he bought part of Crete, this area in Crete, and started digging and found the ruins of this enormous palace complex. which looks like a labyrinth when you see it laid out. And it had no walls.

It didn't need town walls because Crete is an island. And it was almost like a city palace. It had shops and workshops and housing and frescoes on the wall and columns and courtyards. And so in a way, it looks like a labyrinth even today. And Arthur Evans saw this double-headed axe, which is called a labrys, written on, scrawled on some of the walls.

It didn't need town walls because Crete is an island. And it was almost like a city palace. It had shops and workshops and housing and frescoes on the wall and columns and courtyards. And so in a way, it looks like a labyrinth even today. And Arthur Evans saw this double-headed axe, which is called a labrys, written on, scrawled on some of the walls.

And so he thought the word labrys and labyrinth might have been linked. Those scholars aren't sure about that. So he named this palace at Knossos the House of the Axe. But I think that's probably where the idea of the labyrinth comes from, is this massive palace with labyrinthine rooms and corridors.

And so he thought the word labrys and labyrinth might have been linked. Those scholars aren't sure about that. So he named this palace at Knossos the House of the Axe. But I think that's probably where the idea of the labyrinth comes from, is this massive palace with labyrinthine rooms and corridors.

It's amazing because if you think about Schliemann, he believed that there was a Trojan War. So he went looking where he thought it would have taken place, where Troy might have been.

It's amazing because if you think about Schliemann, he believed that there was a Trojan War. So he went looking where he thought it would have taken place, where Troy might have been.

Yes, Heinrich Schliemann, exactly. And he found Troy. And in the same way, Arthur Evans, Sir Arthur Evans around 1900, let's say, he went and started digging where they found all these coins. And he found Knossos. So there is some historical material basis for many of these myths.

Yes, Heinrich Schliemann, exactly. And he found Troy. And in the same way, Arthur Evans, Sir Arthur Evans around 1900, let's say, he went and started digging where they found all these coins. And he found Knossos. So there is some historical material basis for many of these myths.

Only human food.

Only human food.

It's an aberration against nature and it needs a tribute. And I don't know if that's some kind of a remnant of sacrifice or, I mean, they've actually found human bones and traces of cannibalism in Crete. So maybe that's fed into somehow this memory of this civilization that had been gone for a thousand years by the time the Greek poets were writing about it and the Greek tragedians.

It's an aberration against nature and it needs a tribute. And I don't know if that's some kind of a remnant of sacrifice or, I mean, they've actually found human bones and traces of cannibalism in Crete. So maybe that's fed into somehow this memory of this civilization that had been gone for a thousand years by the time the Greek poets were writing about it and the Greek tragedians.

Or something like, I asked my husband, I just asked him, I said, when I say Greek mythology, what images come to mind? He said, the judgment of Paris, you know, this shepherd standing in front of three goddesses, often nude, judging them during a beauty contest. Things like just the birth of Aphrodite, things like that. And

Or something like, I asked my husband, I just asked him, I said, when I say Greek mythology, what images come to mind? He said, the judgment of Paris, you know, this shepherd standing in front of three goddesses, often nude, judging them during a beauty contest. Things like just the birth of Aphrodite, things like that. And

And so Theseus has to go. He decides to go. And for various reasons, the tributes, I think they come from Athens. Some of the tributes come from Athens, these kids who have to be sacrificed every nine years. And Theseus decides that before he can become king of Athens, which is his birthright, he's going to dispatch the Minotaur. So he goes with this boatload of tributes.

And so Theseus has to go. He decides to go. And for various reasons, the tributes, I think they come from Athens. Some of the tributes come from Athens, these kids who have to be sacrificed every nine years. And Theseus decides that before he can become king of Athens, which is his birthright, he's going to dispatch the Minotaur. So he goes with this boatload of tributes.

And there's the famous story of his father, Aegeus, says, don't go. And he says, I'll go. I'll conquer the Minotaur. I'll come back. I'll change the black sail to white to show you that I've done it. Of course, he forgets. And conveniently... Conveniently, Aegeus jumps into the Aegean Sea. Interesting it's called after him. And Theseus becomes king.

And there's the famous story of his father, Aegeus, says, don't go. And he says, I'll go. I'll conquer the Minotaur. I'll come back. I'll change the black sail to white to show you that I've done it. Of course, he forgets. And conveniently... Conveniently, Aegeus jumps into the Aegean Sea. Interesting it's called after him. And Theseus becomes king.

But anyway, back on the ship, they arrive in Crete. And there are lots of retellings of this, but the basic Greek myth is that Ariadne, a princess, another daughter of Minos and Pacify, falls in love with him. And she tells him the secret of killing the Minotaur who's in this dark labyrinth. Imagine, we all have dreams, don't we, about getting lost. Imagine going into a dark underground labyrinth.

But anyway, back on the ship, they arrive in Crete. And there are lots of retellings of this, but the basic Greek myth is that Ariadne, a princess, another daughter of Minos and Pacify, falls in love with him. And she tells him the secret of killing the Minotaur who's in this dark labyrinth. Imagine, we all have dreams, don't we, about getting lost. Imagine going into a dark underground labyrinth.

And I don't know if it's worse if it would be pitch black or if there'd be torches with spooky light, you know, making shadows loom and stuff. I don't know which would be more terrifying. It would be terrifying. He's got to find his way to the center of this maze, kill the Minotaur, and then get back. And Ariadne gives him the famous thread or the twine.

And I don't know if it's worse if it would be pitch black or if there'd be torches with spooky light, you know, making shadows loom and stuff. I don't know which would be more terrifying. It would be terrifying. He's got to find his way to the center of this maze, kill the Minotaur, and then get back. And Ariadne gives him the famous thread or the twine.

And if he can just keep hold of the thread as it unspools, he can use it to find his way back. Now, one thing that's fascinating to me about this myth is it's a perfect example of what's called the hero's journey, which is this kind of template of storytelling that we find in almost, well, many of the Greek myths. And many Hollywood screenwriters love this hero's journey structure.

And if he can just keep hold of the thread as it unspools, he can use it to find his way back. Now, one thing that's fascinating to me about this myth is it's a perfect example of what's called the hero's journey, which is this kind of template of storytelling that we find in almost, well, many of the Greek myths. And many Hollywood screenwriters love this hero's journey structure.

And they use it for... their stories, which don't have to be about heroes and Greek myths. I mean, Dorothy and the Wizard of Oz follows this template. Star Wars follows this template. Pixar's Upt follows this template. I could go on and on telling you all the films that follow the template of the hero's journey, where the hero gets a call to adventure.

And they use it for... their stories, which don't have to be about heroes and Greek myths. I mean, Dorothy and the Wizard of Oz follows this template. Star Wars follows this template. Pixar's Upt follows this template. I could go on and on telling you all the films that follow the template of the hero's journey, where the hero gets a call to adventure.

They have to leave their ordinary world and go, they have to cross a threshold. This is very important. Thresholds are super important. A threshold into a new world of adventure. So just think of Theseus going into the labyrinth. And often before the hero goes, a helper called a mentor will give them advice and give them a talisman, an object.

They have to leave their ordinary world and go, they have to cross a threshold. This is very important. Thresholds are super important. A threshold into a new world of adventure. So just think of Theseus going into the labyrinth. And often before the hero goes, a helper called a mentor will give them advice and give them a talisman, an object.

So in this bit of the story, Ariadne is the mentor and she gives Theseus, a ball of string, which is the talisman, and that's going to help him. Now, according to some accounts, he just punches the Minotaur, but we mostly see him with a sword on depictions.

So in this bit of the story, Ariadne is the mentor and she gives Theseus, a ball of string, which is the talisman, and that's going to help him. Now, according to some accounts, he just punches the Minotaur, but we mostly see him with a sword on depictions.

He goes into the Minotaur and into the labyrinth, and there's often a step in the hero's journey called the visit to death, and this is the visit to death. It's symbolic of going to the underworld. And almost every hero in Greek mythology goes to the underworld in one way or another. And then the hero must do the task. They must take the elixir, kill the monster, save the princess, whatever.

He goes into the Minotaur and into the labyrinth, and there's often a step in the hero's journey called the visit to death, and this is the visit to death. It's symbolic of going to the underworld. And almost every hero in Greek mythology goes to the underworld in one way or another. And then the hero must do the task. They must take the elixir, kill the monster, save the princess, whatever.

When I think about it, I have to say, I think about it a lot from Greek vases and the primary sources, but for me, when I was growing up, The Greek myths were Ray Harryhausen films. And some of those films, Jason and the Argonauts and Clash of the Titans, Jason and the Argonauts about Jason, Clash of the Titans about Perseus, have some of the most stunning imagery that will never leave my head.

When I think about it, I have to say, I think about it a lot from Greek vases and the primary sources, but for me, when I was growing up, The Greek myths were Ray Harryhausen films. And some of those films, Jason and the Argonauts and Clash of the Titans, Jason and the Argonauts about Jason, Clash of the Titans about Perseus, have some of the most stunning imagery that will never leave my head.

And then they must get back home again. And then they have to cross another threshold to get back home. So we often see Anvaz's thesis emerging from the labyrinth. And it's often shown by a couple of columns and a pediment. And sometimes the Minotaur is there with him.

And then they must get back home again. And then they have to cross another threshold to get back home. So we often see Anvaz's thesis emerging from the labyrinth. And it's often shown by a couple of columns and a pediment. And sometimes the Minotaur is there with him.

Of course, the Minotaur has been left in the center, but it just shows us that that's what he's just been doing is killing the Minotaur. So it's this wonderful story of the hero's journey in a little encapsulation, which has all the elements he could want.

Of course, the Minotaur has been left in the center, but it just shows us that that's what he's just been doing is killing the Minotaur. So it's this wonderful story of the hero's journey in a little encapsulation, which has all the elements he could want.

Very important, the getting back is very important. And if you look at myths and stories, you have to see how they get back. And when they get back, they've changed. Their whole journey, what it's done, it's trained them in some way.

Very important, the getting back is very important. And if you look at myths and stories, you have to see how they get back. And when they get back, they've changed. Their whole journey, what it's done, it's trained them in some way.

It's helped them become who they're meant to be, whether it's a leader or to save the world like Wally when he saves the earth by bringing back the plant or whatever it is. It's a genius, genius template for storytellers everywhere. So exciting. I think it's really great.

It's helped them become who they're meant to be, whether it's a leader or to save the world like Wally when he saves the earth by bringing back the plant or whatever it is. It's a genius, genius template for storytellers everywhere. So exciting. I think it's really great.

Of course, when he gets out of the maze, he then takes Ariadne with him because she's betrayed her father and killed her half-brother, the Minotaur. Theseus wasn't a very nice person. He abandons her later on the island.

Of course, when he gets out of the maze, he then takes Ariadne with him because she's betrayed her father and killed her half-brother, the Minotaur. Theseus wasn't a very nice person. He abandons her later on the island.

And in fact, Theseus is pretty bad as his record for women. So we won't look too much into that. We'll go back to the Minotaur.

And in fact, Theseus is pretty bad as his record for women. So we won't look too much into that. We'll go back to the Minotaur.

Yeah, and maybe that's what happens when we slay the monsters in our life. We just leave them and there's a kind of little decaying corpse of that thing that was haunting us in our deep, deep subconscious of our labyrinthine brain. So there are writers out there, there's your story. What happened to the Minotaur after he died? I think once they die, they die and he's underground.

Yeah, and maybe that's what happens when we slay the monsters in our life. We just leave them and there's a kind of little decaying corpse of that thing that was haunting us in our deep, deep subconscious of our labyrinthine brain. So there are writers out there, there's your story. What happened to the Minotaur after he died? I think once they die, they die and he's underground.

So, you know, he's essentially been buried.

So, you know, he's essentially been buried.

Great question. And we know from Ovid that he likes the Minotaur. And I love looking at the vases and the frescoes. And we've got some wonderful frescoes from Pompeii of Theseus and the Minotaur. So yes, he's still very, very popular. Obviously, monsters go in and out of fashion. What really interests me is what we've done with him in the last... 100, 200 years about pop culture.

Great question. And we know from Ovid that he likes the Minotaur. And I love looking at the vases and the frescoes. And we've got some wonderful frescoes from Pompeii of Theseus and the Minotaur. So yes, he's still very, very popular. Obviously, monsters go in and out of fashion. What really interests me is what we've done with him in the last... 100, 200 years about pop culture.

Do you mind if I talk about that a little bit?

Do you mind if I talk about that a little bit?

So the Greek myths, just amazing, amazing.

So the Greek myths, just amazing, amazing.

Well, let's talk about one of the most famous paintings of the Minotaur, which is by, is it Watts?

Well, let's talk about one of the most famous paintings of the Minotaur, which is by, is it Watts?

That's him, GF, George Frederick Watts.

That's him, GF, George Frederick Watts.

So this is really fascinating because there was a bill trying to be put through Parliament about raising the act of consent for children and worrying about child prostitution, which was a real problem in Victorian period.

So this is really fascinating because there was a bill trying to be put through Parliament about raising the act of consent for children and worrying about child prostitution, which was a real problem in Victorian period.

And it was so distressing that this Watts, who was one of the most popular artists of his time, he read the article, went to sleep, and the next morning he woke up and painted this amazing painting of the Minotaur in one morning.

And it was so distressing that this Watts, who was one of the most popular artists of his time, he read the article, went to sleep, and the next morning he woke up and painted this amazing painting of the Minotaur in one morning.

And it shows the minotaur from the back. He's slightly turned away from us. He's leaning on a balustrade. He's not underground. He's looking out at the sea. And when you first look at it, he looks quite lonely and sympathetic. One scholar has commented his face looks almost dog-like, and he's got long eyelashes. But then if you look more closely, it's kind of creepy.

And it shows the minotaur from the back. He's slightly turned away from us. He's leaning on a balustrade. He's not underground. He's looking out at the sea. And when you first look at it, he looks quite lonely and sympathetic. One scholar has commented his face looks almost dog-like, and he's got long eyelashes. But then if you look more closely, it's kind of creepy.

Because first of all, it looks like he's looking at you out of the corner of his eye. And then you notice that in his hand, he's crushed a bird, a little tiny bird he's crushed dead. And then you see what he's looking at is a ship bringing the tribute of children for him. And this was, he became a metaphor for the sort of person

Because first of all, it looks like he's looking at you out of the corner of his eye. And then you notice that in his hand, he's crushed a bird, a little tiny bird he's crushed dead. And then you see what he's looking at is a ship bringing the tribute of children for him. And this was, he became a metaphor for the sort of person

who enjoys abusing underage children or children at all for in horrible ways. And so it was a real statement about what was happening in society at that moment. I was so excited to hear that the Tate Britain has all Watts's paintings. So I went to look at it and it's in storage. So I tweeted the Tate, bring it out.

who enjoys abusing underage children or children at all for in horrible ways. And so it was a real statement about what was happening in society at that moment. I was so excited to hear that the Tate Britain has all Watts's paintings. So I went to look at it and it's in storage. So I tweeted the Tate, bring it out.

especially with the current popularity of Greek mythology, the resurgence, people looking at it, retelling it, using the myths to talk about what's happening now, which is what the myths are so useful for, to bring it out. What's really interesting is that the famous short story writer, Jorge Luis Borges, wrote a short story partly inspired by that painting

especially with the current popularity of Greek mythology, the resurgence, people looking at it, retelling it, using the myths to talk about what's happening now, which is what the myths are so useful for, to bring it out. What's really interesting is that the famous short story writer, Jorge Luis Borges, wrote a short story partly inspired by that painting

He was putting out a magazine and he had two pages to fill. So he thought, I'll write a short story, two pages long. And he wrote a story called The House of Asterion. And Asterion was the name of the minotaur in ancient Greek. And although it's very short, it's considered a classic.

He was putting out a magazine and he had two pages to fill. So he thought, I'll write a short story, two pages long. And he wrote a story called The House of Asterion. And Asterion was the name of the minotaur in ancient Greek. And although it's very short, it's considered a classic.

Because it's arguably the first story about an ancient monster that's told from the monster's point of view, which is super interesting.

Because it's arguably the first story about an ancient monster that's told from the monster's point of view, which is super interesting.

And I was thinking, you know, for example, how would we do it right now, today? How would we tell the myth of the Minotaur? And I was just thinking about the cattle connection and that... a bull would be equal to a car in modern terms. And I thought, well, what if a woman mated with a car? And actually there was a, in 2021, an ultra-violent French film called Titane won the Palme d'Or.

And I was thinking, you know, for example, how would we do it right now, today? How would we tell the myth of the Minotaur? And I was just thinking about the cattle connection and that... a bull would be equal to a car in modern terms. And I thought, well, what if a woman mated with a car? And actually there was a, in 2021, an ultra-violent French film called Titane won the Palme d'Or.

I'm sure the Minotaur is in Harry Potter and Percy Jackson, but I haven't read all those books, so I'm not, I'm sure they're there, and I'm sure they're probably some computer games. Before we talk about chaos, my favorite depiction of the Minotaur is by Mary Reynolds, who was writing in the 1950s, 60s, and 70s. She wrote a trilogy about Theseus, and the first one's called The King Must Die.

I'm sure the Minotaur is in Harry Potter and Percy Jackson, but I haven't read all those books, so I'm not, I'm sure they're there, and I'm sure they're probably some computer games. Before we talk about chaos, my favorite depiction of the Minotaur is by Mary Reynolds, who was writing in the 1950s, 60s, and 70s. She wrote a trilogy about Theseus, and the first one's called The King Must Die.

She has a really clever take on the Minotaur. She has the bull, the cow, the kind of model made by Daedalus is for these bull jumpers, because we know in Crete, in Knossos, the palace of Knossos, we know from frescoes that

She has a really clever take on the Minotaur. She has the bull, the cow, the kind of model made by Daedalus is for these bull jumpers, because we know in Crete, in Knossos, the palace of Knossos, we know from frescoes that

Well, my latest book is called Pantheon, and it's actually about the 12 Olympians, or actually there were 14. So I do the 14 major gods, but I thought I couldn't leave out the minor gods. And then I thought, well, I've got to include the heroes. And I'm afraid the monsters come right at the end, and I don't do them all. But I do do quite a few.

Well, my latest book is called Pantheon, and it's actually about the 12 Olympians, or actually there were 14. So I do the 14 major gods, but I thought I couldn't leave out the minor gods. And then I thought, well, I've got to include the heroes. And I'm afraid the monsters come right at the end, and I don't do them all. But I do do quite a few.

that there was a bull motif, that there were bull, giant bull horns on some of these buildings, and that we see frescoes of these young acrobats jumping over bulls in a kind of early version of bullfighting, which must have been terrifying, but also impressive.

that there was a bull motif, that there were bull, giant bull horns on some of these buildings, and that we see frescoes of these young acrobats jumping over bulls in a kind of early version of bullfighting, which must have been terrifying, but also impressive.

So Mary Reynolds has Theseus coming as tribute that they have to, these 14 children, seven boys and seven girls, have to learn how to dance with the bulls and become bull leapers. So in the bullring where they're training, they have a practice cowl, like the way gymnasts have, what do you call it, a horse or whatever.

So Mary Reynolds has Theseus coming as tribute that they have to, these 14 children, seven boys and seven girls, have to learn how to dance with the bulls and become bull leapers. So in the bullring where they're training, they have a practice cowl, like the way gymnasts have, what do you call it, a horse or whatever.

Absolutely. They're jumping on this, whatever, this bolster quite creature. I wonder if that's actually a holdover for the bull jumpers, the bull leapers. Anyway, it's very clever because they've created, like the bull, the cow that Pacify occupies, the framework of a cow or a bull that someone can climb inside and operate it from inside. And according to Mary Reynolds,

Absolutely. They're jumping on this, whatever, this bolster quite creature. I wonder if that's actually a holdover for the bull jumpers, the bull leapers. Anyway, it's very clever because they've created, like the bull, the cow that Pacify occupies, the framework of a cow or a bull that someone can climb inside and operate it from inside. And according to Mary Reynolds,

The Minotaur is the son, Asterion, of not Minos, but Pasiphae, Pasiphae, who fell in love with a bull leaper from Assyria. So he was kind of a hairy guy, though he was quite young at the time. He impregnated her, then died in the bull ring. And she gave birth to this kind of... He's human, but he doesn't look Cretan.

The Minotaur is the son, Asterion, of not Minos, but Pasiphae, Pasiphae, who fell in love with a bull leaper from Assyria. So he was kind of a hairy guy, though he was quite young at the time. He impregnated her, then died in the bull ring. And she gave birth to this kind of... He's human, but he doesn't look Cretan.

He doesn't have the slim build of many Cretans and the honey-colored skin of many Cretans. He's kind of hairier and has bulging eyes and a kind of bull-like neck. So what Mary Reynolds has done is made him a person with kind of bestial aspects. And what the really clever thing is, she says that...

He doesn't have the slim build of many Cretans and the honey-colored skin of many Cretans. He's kind of hairier and has bulging eyes and a kind of bull-like neck. So what Mary Reynolds has done is made him a person with kind of bestial aspects. And what the really clever thing is, she says that...

When Pacify was really in love with him, she'd sneak into the bullring and hide in the cow to wait to meet him. So it's a very clever kind of modern take, kind of rationalizing what the Minotaur might have been.

When Pacify was really in love with him, she'd sneak into the bullring and hide in the cow to wait to meet him. So it's a very clever kind of modern take, kind of rationalizing what the Minotaur might have been.

And the book that got me interested in classics that started my whole passion for classics was called The Last of the Wine. And it's set in ancient Athens in the time of Plato, Socrates, and Xenophon. I read that when I was 19, and it changed my life.

And the book that got me interested in classics that started my whole passion for classics was called The Last of the Wine. And it's set in ancient Athens in the time of Plato, Socrates, and Xenophon. I read that when I was 19, and it changed my life.

Chaos. Let's talk all about Chaos.

Chaos. Let's talk all about Chaos.

Yeah, and what I say in my book is one reason we like the myths is they're so archetypal, and the gods and goddesses, they're good to think with. They're good to play with. They're kind of archetypal characters, and we can play around with them and change them. And that's what the Greek tragedians did, Sophocles, Euripides, and Aeschylus did way back then.

Yeah, and what I say in my book is one reason we like the myths is they're so archetypal, and the gods and goddesses, they're good to think with. They're good to play with. They're kind of archetypal characters, and we can play around with them and change them. And that's what the Greek tragedians did, Sophocles, Euripides, and Aeschylus did way back then.

And of course, my favorite, Aristophanes, who's not a tragedian at all. But we can play with them. And I think you and I were both at the British Museum when they aired the first episode with Charlie Cavell, the creator, Jeff Goldblum, on a panel afterwards, which was so fascinating. And so, yes, it's a retelling of the Greek myths, not using all the gods, but some of them.

And of course, my favorite, Aristophanes, who's not a tragedian at all. But we can play with them. And I think you and I were both at the British Museum when they aired the first episode with Charlie Cavell, the creator, Jeff Goldblum, on a panel afterwards, which was so fascinating. And so, yes, it's a retelling of the Greek myths, not using all the gods, but some of them.

And in a way, the whole book is kind of just a little introduction. And I often say that I kind of boil down these complex mythological characters to their essence, to the kind of stock cubes of who and what they were. So I just give a little paragraph on each. So it's perfect for the attention span of today's reader, just a little box about each one.

And in a way, the whole book is kind of just a little introduction. And I often say that I kind of boil down these complex mythological characters to their essence, to the kind of stock cubes of who and what they were. So I just give a little paragraph on each. So it's perfect for the attention span of today's reader, just a little box about each one.

But Charlie does a really interesting thing with the Minotaur. they have that the Minotaur is the child of Minos and that there was a prophecy that the firstborn child of Minos would kill the father. So Minos locks away the son, though he's normal, in a labyrinth and almost creates a beast by denying him love, affection,

But Charlie does a really interesting thing with the Minotaur. they have that the Minotaur is the child of Minos and that there was a prophecy that the firstborn child of Minos would kill the father. So Minos locks away the son, though he's normal, in a labyrinth and almost creates a beast by denying him love, affection,

physical contact puts him in a mask of a of a bull for some reason so again it's got a kind of explanation and he becomes a very sympathetic character and this is the thing we can do is we can take these

physical contact puts him in a mask of a of a bull for some reason so again it's got a kind of explanation and he becomes a very sympathetic character and this is the thing we can do is we can take these

monsters, and we can kind of, I'm saying monsters with inverted commas, we can rehabilitate them and show what might have caused them to become that way, which I think is a great thing about many of these modern retellings. They give us a new view of the monster, though I do think the power of the monster is this deep psychological bogeyman.

monsters, and we can kind of, I'm saying monsters with inverted commas, we can rehabilitate them and show what might have caused them to become that way, which I think is a great thing about many of these modern retellings. They give us a new view of the monster, though I do think the power of the monster is this deep psychological bogeyman.

Yes, I think so. And I think any of these weird combinations of these hybrids are so fascinating to us. I think my favorite monster is Medusa in all her terrifying aspect, and especially the way Ray Harryhausen portrayed her. And the idea that if someone looks at you, they can turn you to stone. And this is

Yes, I think so. And I think any of these weird combinations of these hybrids are so fascinating to us. I think my favorite monster is Medusa in all her terrifying aspect, and especially the way Ray Harryhausen portrayed her. And the idea that if someone looks at you, they can turn you to stone. And this is

One of the ideas of apotropaic, the power is a face looking out can turn back, reflect back evil spirits, frighten them away. And a dog with three heads, a watchdog, but especially one with three heads can frighten away an evil spirit. And I think the power of the minotaur against evil spirits and in the subconscious is not him, but I think it's the maze again.

One of the ideas of apotropaic, the power is a face looking out can turn back, reflect back evil spirits, frighten them away. And a dog with three heads, a watchdog, but especially one with three heads can frighten away an evil spirit. And I think the power of the minotaur against evil spirits and in the subconscious is not him, but I think it's the maze again.

This idea of the place, his big accessory, this labyrinthine space that I don't dream about him, but I do dream about not getting out of a space. And in fact, yesterday I went to the National Gallery in London. Amazing resource. Oh my gosh, so many masterpiece paintings. Please may it never burn down. But I couldn't find my way out. And I felt a bit like this is in the labyrinth.

This idea of the place, his big accessory, this labyrinthine space that I don't dream about him, but I do dream about not getting out of a space. And in fact, yesterday I went to the National Gallery in London. Amazing resource. Oh my gosh, so many masterpiece paintings. Please may it never burn down. But I couldn't find my way out. And I felt a bit like this is in the labyrinth.

And you know, this is a weird thing, but I know we're talking about monsters, but there doesn't even have to be a monster. Just getting out, getting home is a desperate desire that we all have, isn't it? Just getting out of the maze. So that whole idea that, Jesus, he's killed the monster, but now he's got to get home. There's no more monster, but he's still got to get home. So powerful.

And you know, this is a weird thing, but I know we're talking about monsters, but there doesn't even have to be a monster. Just getting out, getting home is a desperate desire that we all have, isn't it? Just getting out of the maze. So that whole idea that, Jesus, he's killed the monster, but now he's got to get home. There's no more monster, but he's still got to get home. So powerful.

And I think one of the things about monsters, I was thinking about why do we like monsters? What do monsters in myths do? And I think it's a combination of observation and imagination. And the first thing that struck me is my real passion is putting myself back into the ancient world and imagining what it would have been like to live back then.

And I think one of the things about monsters, I was thinking about why do we like monsters? What do monsters in myths do? And I think it's a combination of observation and imagination. And the first thing that struck me is my real passion is putting myself back into the ancient world and imagining what it would have been like to live back then.

It's called Pantheon, and it is an illustrated handbook to the Greek gods and goddesses. And as I said, it's got little just snippets about the kind of essences of the Greek gods and goddesses and the heroes and some monsters, just enough that you can leaf through and think, oh, that's an interesting little rabbit hole.

It's called Pantheon, and it is an illustrated handbook to the Greek gods and goddesses. And as I said, it's got little just snippets about the kind of essences of the Greek gods and goddesses and the heroes and some monsters, just enough that you can leaf through and think, oh, that's an interesting little rabbit hole.

I'd like to investigate that a bit more because the myths are so complex and so nuanced and so variegated. that you could study one aspect of them almost for your whole life. And that's one thing I love about the whole discipline of classics is that it could never be exhausted.

I'd like to investigate that a bit more because the myths are so complex and so nuanced and so variegated. that you could study one aspect of them almost for your whole life. And that's one thing I love about the whole discipline of classics is that it could never be exhausted.

And I mean, I've gone down rabbit holes with things like the aegis, the kind of poncho with Medusa's face on it that Athena wears, or the thyrsus, this kind of weird rod that Dionysus' followers wear. hold and what are these all about? And just wonderful little rabbit holes you can dive down and they're so fascinating.

And I mean, I've gone down rabbit holes with things like the aegis, the kind of poncho with Medusa's face on it that Athena wears, or the thyrsus, this kind of weird rod that Dionysus' followers wear. hold and what are these all about? And just wonderful little rabbit holes you can dive down and they're so fascinating.

And if you are a writer, they're great material that you can modernize them, retell them, tell them in the past, tell them in the present, tell them in the future, fantasy, sci-fi, you never run out of ideas with the Greek myths.

And if you are a writer, they're great material that you can modernize them, retell them, tell them in the past, tell them in the present, tell them in the future, fantasy, sci-fi, you never run out of ideas with the Greek myths.

Thank you for having me on one of my favourite podcasts. I'm honoured.

Thank you for having me on one of my favourite podcasts. I'm honoured.

And one of the first things is deformity in animals or in people, which is a kind of horrible thing, isn't it? I'll never forget once in San Francisco, when I was quite young, a teenager, I saw a two-headed snake. And it was alive. It was moving around. And it was just repulsive. It was so... deeply horrible that I'll never forget that.

And one of the first things is deformity in animals or in people, which is a kind of horrible thing, isn't it? I'll never forget once in San Francisco, when I was quite young, a teenager, I saw a two-headed snake. And it was alive. It was moving around. And it was just repulsive. It was so... deeply horrible that I'll never forget that.

And I think, you know, we have stories of two headed calves or, or animals with more than one limb. And I think they must've observed these things. And I think that's one of the things that they might've thought this is a monster. Another one is hybrids where you match like a donkey, and a horse and you get a mule. So you can combine animals.

And I think, you know, we have stories of two headed calves or, or animals with more than one limb. And I think they must've observed these things. And I think that's one of the things that they might've thought this is a monster. Another one is hybrids where you match like a donkey, and a horse and you get a mule. So you can combine animals.

And then we'll skip over this one very quickly, but bestiality, you know, what if a shepherd's in his field and he needs to relieve himself in a certain way, and he goes over to a nice cow or a nice sheep or something? What if he wonders what would come if that sheep gave birth? What would come out? Kind of creepy one, but it might've been something they thought about.

And then we'll skip over this one very quickly, but bestiality, you know, what if a shepherd's in his field and he needs to relieve himself in a certain way, and he goes over to a nice cow or a nice sheep or something? What if he wonders what would come if that sheep gave birth? What would come out? Kind of creepy one, but it might've been something they thought about.

And then you get these images coming from other cultures, from the Near East or Egypt, of kind of half-human, half-animal creatures. And they might have thought, what is this? And they might want to explain it. And then one of the things we often forget about is that these monsters had a job, which was to keep away evil. They often frightened away evil spirits and demons.

And then you get these images coming from other cultures, from the Near East or Egypt, of kind of half-human, half-animal creatures. And they might have thought, what is this? And they might want to explain it. And then one of the things we often forget about is that these monsters had a job, which was to keep away evil. They often frightened away evil spirits and demons.

The word is apotropaic in Greek, which means turns away evil. And we often forget that they lived in a world full of invisible, not just gods, but demons and little spirits and things. But I think of all those things, the most powerful thing is the psychological aspect of the monsters. And if you think about it, we humans, we are part animal and we're part divine. I mean, we're part super animals.

The word is apotropaic in Greek, which means turns away evil. And we often forget that they lived in a world full of invisible, not just gods, but demons and little spirits and things. But I think of all those things, the most powerful thing is the psychological aspect of the monsters. And if you think about it, we humans, we are part animal and we're part divine. I mean, we're part super animals.

You know, we think, we tell stories, we dress, we have different cultic practices. And it's that tension that causes us so much anguish in life too. We're always struggling with our animal desires. And I think that's why monsters and be so deeply powerful and scary and frightening.

You know, we think, we tell stories, we dress, we have different cultic practices. And it's that tension that causes us so much anguish in life too. We're always struggling with our animal desires. And I think that's why monsters and be so deeply powerful and scary and frightening.

And I think also there's this current fashion of rehabilitating monsters, you know, making them sympathetic, which I'm all for. You know, Natalie Haynes does it in Stone Blind about Medusa. And then I think, I'm not sure if you'd call Cersei a monster, but Madeline Miller rehabilitates her and tells her side. But... Monsters, and of course, Charlie Cavell does it in the new Netflix series.

And I think also there's this current fashion of rehabilitating monsters, you know, making them sympathetic, which I'm all for. You know, Natalie Haynes does it in Stone Blind about Medusa. And then I think, I'm not sure if you'd call Cersei a monster, but Madeline Miller rehabilitates her and tells her side. But... Monsters, and of course, Charlie Cavell does it in the new Netflix series.

He makes the Minotaur, gives them a sympathetic story. But monsters are scary, they're terrifying, and that's what their power is.

He makes the Minotaur, gives them a sympathetic story. But monsters are scary, they're terrifying, and that's what their power is.

Well, what was the Minotaur? Well, he was half bull, half man. And he has a really interesting origin. Before I talk about his origin, though, in my book, I have a little box. I have some little info boxes. And as I was researching all this information, I read a book about the importance of cattle in ancient times. And I call this box the cattle connection.

Well, what was the Minotaur? Well, he was half bull, half man. And he has a really interesting origin. Before I talk about his origin, though, in my book, I have a little box. I have some little info boxes. And as I was researching all this information, I read a book about the importance of cattle in ancient times. And I call this box the cattle connection.

And, you know, ancient Greeks, in fact, even Stone Age and Bronze Age cultures, cattle, sheep, goats, cows were incredibly important. Because if you owned a cow, cattle, even a single cow, you were rich. And what do you use cows for? Well, they provide food. They provide transportation. They can plow your land so you have crops.

And, you know, ancient Greeks, in fact, even Stone Age and Bronze Age cultures, cattle, sheep, goats, cows were incredibly important. Because if you owned a cow, cattle, even a single cow, you were rich. And what do you use cows for? Well, they provide food. They provide transportation. They can plow your land so you have crops.

Then when they die, you've got leather for clothing and shoes and textiles and tents. And another thing that struck me is... Most people in the Bronze Age or the Stone Age wouldn't have seen a lion or a bear, but a bull would have been probably the most terrifying and powerful animal they would come into close contact with.

Then when they die, you've got leather for clothing and shoes and textiles and tents. And another thing that struck me is... Most people in the Bronze Age or the Stone Age wouldn't have seen a lion or a bear, but a bull would have been probably the most terrifying and powerful animal they would come into close contact with.

And if you can just imagine, I don't know if you've ever been near a bull, but they can be terrifying.

And if you can just imagine, I don't know if you've ever been near a bull, but they can be terrifying.

They're powerful and they have the majestic aspect too because the horns, horns are a deep symbol of power. And so you've got, they are often associated with kings and things. And in fact, once you start looking for cattle in the Greek myths, you see them everywhere.

They're powerful and they have the majestic aspect too because the horns, horns are a deep symbol of power. And so you've got, they are often associated with kings and things. And in fact, once you start looking for cattle in the Greek myths, you see them everywhere.

For example, the first thing baby Hermes does as soon as he's born is to, well, after he kills the tortoise and makes it into a lyre, is he steals the cattle of Apollo. Yes.

For example, the first thing baby Hermes does as soon as he's born is to, well, after he kills the tortoise and makes it into a lyre, is he steals the cattle of Apollo. Yes.

He's one day old. Oh, it's so cute. I love that story. But then you just think about Apollo, this golden god who plays, well, he's going to play the lyre. He's like a cowherd and baby Hermes is a little cattle rustler. And then you've got Hera, the queen of the gods, who's often called ox-eyed or cow-eyed. Apparently it's a compliment.

He's one day old. Oh, it's so cute. I love that story. But then you just think about Apollo, this golden god who plays, well, he's going to play the lyre. He's like a cowherd and baby Hermes is a little cattle rustler. And then you've got Hera, the queen of the gods, who's often called ox-eyed or cow-eyed. Apparently it's a compliment.

And then Zeus, Poseidon, and Dionysus are all deeply associated with bulls. Two of the labors of Hercules have to do with bulls. Odysseus gets into trouble when his men steal the sacred cattle. And then Cadmus from Phoenicia, he follows a cow who leads him to Boeotia, which means cowland in Greek.

And then Zeus, Poseidon, and Dionysus are all deeply associated with bulls. Two of the labors of Hercules have to do with bulls. Odysseus gets into trouble when his men steal the sacred cattle. And then Cadmus from Phoenicia, he follows a cow who leads him to Boeotia, which means cowland in Greek.

And there he found Thebes, which is going to be the great tragic city of Pentheus, Oedipus, Antigone, etc. And we're going to come to cows in a minute when I do the origin story of the Minotaur.

And there he found Thebes, which is going to be the great tragic city of Pentheus, Oedipus, Antigone, etc. And we're going to come to cows in a minute when I do the origin story of the Minotaur.

Yes, absolutely. And I think, again, that that connection with cows and bulls, it's not just Crete, it's not just mainland Greece. You get it in Phoenicia, you get it in Egypt, you get it, we see images of Baal, the Canaanite god, with a bull head and a man's body. So there, again, the cow is so deeply important to all these cultures, and they have different ways of kind of expressing that.

Yes, absolutely. And I think, again, that that connection with cows and bulls, it's not just Crete, it's not just mainland Greece. You get it in Phoenicia, you get it in Egypt, you get it, we see images of Baal, the Canaanite god, with a bull head and a man's body. So there, again, the cow is so deeply important to all these cultures, and they have different ways of kind of expressing that.

A good question. We have a first mention of him in a poet called Callimachus, who's of the 3rd century BC. He just has a little line. He talks about Theseus escaping from the cruel, bellowing of the wild son of Pacify and the twisted dwelling place of the crooked labyrinth. So right there, although it doesn't call him Minotaur in that third century BC bit of poetry, you've got all the elements.

A good question. We have a first mention of him in a poet called Callimachus, who's of the 3rd century BC. He just has a little line. He talks about Theseus escaping from the cruel, bellowing of the wild son of Pacify and the twisted dwelling place of the crooked labyrinth. So right there, although it doesn't call him Minotaur in that third century BC bit of poetry, you've got all the elements.

You've got thesis, you've got the mother, and you've got the maze. Then we first see it written down on vases, and there's a famous skiphos, which is a kind of deep bowl with two little horizontal handles at the top. called the Reetskifas, and that's from, appropriately enough, Boeotia, cow land. And it shows Theseus stepping forward to stab the Minotaur.

You've got thesis, you've got the mother, and you've got the maze. Then we first see it written down on vases, and there's a famous skiphos, which is a kind of deep bowl with two little horizontal handles at the top. called the Reetskifas, and that's from, appropriately enough, Boeotia, cow land. And it shows Theseus stepping forward to stab the Minotaur.

And in that one, the Minotaur looks a bit like, his head looks almost like a unicorn. It could be a horse with one horn. But then, in a vase of about 400, we call it, someone's written Minoio Tauros, which means the Bull of Minos. So that's the kind of first time it's written down, but...

And in that one, the Minotaur looks a bit like, his head looks almost like a unicorn. It could be a horse with one horn. But then, in a vase of about 400, we call it, someone's written Minoio Tauros, which means the Bull of Minos. So that's the kind of first time it's written down, but...

Obviously, there's this deep association starting from about the 6th century BC in Greece with this bullheaded person in a maze.

Obviously, there's this deep association starting from about the 6th century BC in Greece with this bullheaded person in a maze.

Absolutely. And I forgot to say the two main sources, or I'd say one is Apollodorus, or Pseudo-Apollodorus, as he's sometimes called, who is writing in Greek in the first century CE. And also Ovid writes about the Minotaur, not just in the Metamorphoses, but in the Ars Amatoriae.

Absolutely. And I forgot to say the two main sources, or I'd say one is Apollodorus, or Pseudo-Apollodorus, as he's sometimes called, who is writing in Greek in the first century CE. And also Ovid writes about the Minotaur, not just in the Metamorphoses, but in the Ars Amatoriae.

He's a Roman writing, yeah, in Latin, right before the birth of Christ, just before the birth of Christ. And he has a wonderful phrase. He describes the minotaur as semi bovemque virum, semi virumque bovem, which means a half-bull man and a half-man bull. So it's a kind of Latin tongue twister, a hybrid line for a hybrid creature. Yeah. That's good fun.

He's a Roman writing, yeah, in Latin, right before the birth of Christ, just before the birth of Christ. And he has a wonderful phrase. He describes the minotaur as semi bovemque virum, semi virumque bovem, which means a half-bull man and a half-man bull. So it's a kind of Latin tongue twister, a hybrid line for a hybrid creature. Yeah. That's good fun.

He talks about the unholy womb and stuff like that that gave birth to the Minotaur.

He talks about the unholy womb and stuff like that that gave birth to the Minotaur.

Myths are malleable, so we do sometimes get the body of a bull and the head of the man, which is deeply creepy. For some reason, that's more creepy than the body of a man with the head of a bull. So we do occasionally get it because, of course, these myths are not canon. They're not scripture. They're malleable. You can play with them, and in fact,

Myths are malleable, so we do sometimes get the body of a bull and the head of the man, which is deeply creepy. For some reason, that's more creepy than the body of a man with the head of a bull. So we do occasionally get it because, of course, these myths are not canon. They're not scripture. They're malleable. You can play with them, and in fact,

I think some of our most striking images of the minotaur and the maze come from the Greek tragedians of the fifth century, who maybe we don't still have their plays, but we have little lines from them, which are very, very powerful. So yeah, they think Sophocles might have been the one who talks about the maze as a twisty thing.

I think some of our most striking images of the minotaur and the maze come from the Greek tragedians of the fifth century, who maybe we don't still have their plays, but we have little lines from them, which are very, very powerful. So yeah, they think Sophocles might have been the one who talks about the maze as a twisty thing.

And I think there's a wonderful line in Euripides about a baby born of mixed and sterile form, a mixture of man and bull of dual nature. So again, you've got this kind of hybrid creature.

And I think there's a wonderful line in Euripides about a baby born of mixed and sterile form, a mixture of man and bull of dual nature. So again, you've got this kind of hybrid creature.

The origin story starts with Europa. Well, I mean, you can go back almost to as far as you want. Starts with Europa. Now she was a Phoenician princess from Tyre, which is modern Lebanon. So that's really interesting. She's like a Semitic person. Her ancestor, not her mother, but a few generations back, might have been Io. Io was a nymph that Zeus loved.

The origin story starts with Europa. Well, I mean, you can go back almost to as far as you want. Starts with Europa. Now she was a Phoenician princess from Tyre, which is modern Lebanon. So that's really interesting. She's like a Semitic person. Her ancestor, not her mother, but a few generations back, might have been Io. Io was a nymph that Zeus loved.

And in Pindar, this is so great. Pindar describes, has a wonderful description of Jason arriving in Yolkis wearing two different types of clothing. Get this, a tight-fitting magnesium tunic that clung to his superb limbs and a leopard skin to protect him from shivering showers. And his long hair flows down his back. Now that shows he's really young. He hasn't cut his hair yet.

And in almost all the accounts, we emphasize that Jason's quite young and many of them say he just has his first beard. So he's like 20 years old. He's quite young and good looking. So this is very impressive. So that's our first trope.

Yes, I think we can firmly place it in the Bronze Age, especially the oral traditions and the kind of establishment of who are these people in different areas of ancient Greece. By the way, there's a great resource on the internet, which is the World History Encyclopedia, and there's a map of the hero Jason and his quest with the Argonauts.

And it's absolutely superb because it shows you it follows Apollonius's

version and it shows you his very circuitous route all around the ancient world and what happens in each place and for me i'm not good with geography so it's good for me to get a vision of where yolkus is and it's kind of like again the middle right coast of greece and you can just sail across the troy and in fact one of their places they sail by troy in the argo

but they don't stop there, but it's a kind of little hint. Oh, there's Tri on the starboard bow.

Yeah, second one follows, as ever, the king says, and they do this in various ways. You can have the kingdom if you do this task, if you complete this task. Go get the golden fleece. Now, we don't have time to go into what the golden fleece was and everything. I think you've got another brilliant history hit telling the story of Phrixus and the golden ram that flies and stuff.

But he's got to go to the end of the world to get the thing, the golden fleece. So Jason says, yes, I will go to the end of the world and I'll get lots of heroes. So that's the next trope kind of is the gathering of heroes. And he's got to gather all the heroes. And Apollonius starts off with a great long list of the heroes.

And the movie has a really fun version where they have games to compete to see who will come, who gets to go on the Argo. And Hercules arrives and says, Hercules is here. What do I do? When do I compete? And they go, ha ha, you don't have to compete, Hercules. You're just naturally in. And then Hylus, this young boy comes and he says, oh, I'm too late to compete.

But what if I can beat Hercules or Heracles at one task? And Heracles says, the discus. Hit that rock out to sea. And of course, Heracles throws the discus with his immense strength and it hits the rock way out at sea. And then Hylus, super clever. This always impressed me so much. He uses the discus like skipping stones on a pond. So he uses his brain and he hits the rock by skipping the discus.

It skips on the water and hits the rock. And Heracles says, ha ha, Hylus, you can come along. So that's one version. In another version, Hylus is Heracles' lover, boyfriend. And they get only so far. And that's another trope that's coming up further.

Another fun trope is they get a bit, they make the Argo, then they build the ship and they get a guy called Argo to build it, Argus to build the ship, name it after him. And they get a bit of magic wood from the Oaks of Dodona, Zeus's sanctuary. And this bit of wood can speak. So they put the little speaking bit of wood into the Argo so it can kind of, it's got a sat nav for them.

It can help guide them along the way. And of course, in the great film, they do a figurehead of Irhira at the back of the ship, and she opens her eyes and gives Jason advice. So that's the third trope, you could say, is wood from the Oak of Dodona as part of the Argo.

Absolutely. And I love the idea that wood can speak. That's so great, isn't it? And again, you've got the idea of the approval of the gods, the presence of the gods are here. So that's super fun. Then they set off. And the first place they stop is the island of Lemnos. I don't know if you've ever been to Lemnos.

I've not been to Lemnos, but it's roughly halfway between the eastern seaboard of Greece and Troy. And They arrived there. And there are all these women and no men on the island. Because unbeknownst to them, the women, for a various reason, have killed off all the men on the island. They've murdered their husbands and killed off all the men.

It's all to do with the curse and not worshipping some goddess and getting punished and a bad smell. So the Argonauts arrive their first stop and all these women are there. This is great stuff. So they hang around there having fun. for a while. And the only woman who didn't kill her father is Hypsipyle, who is the kind of queen of Lemnos. And she has a little dalliance with Jason.

And he's going to have two kids by her. So this is really interesting because, of course, Medea will kill his children, spoiler alert, later on. But these two children, one of them is the one who goes to fight at Troy. So that's where that son comes from. So they have fun on Lemnis. And finally, Heracles says, guys, come on, we got a quest. Let's go. So they all go.

Oh, I am so honoured to be back. Thank you so much for inviting me back. It was really good fun last time and I hope we'll have fun today.

Yeah, great, great, great question. Well, you've got Castor and Polydeuces, also known as Castor and Pollux, who are slightly problematic because they're supposed to be the brothers of Helen of Troy, but she's the next generation, isn't she, if they're the generation before Troy? We'll just skim over that. So Castor and Polydeuces, who are good at boxing and they're good at horse riding.

And each of these heroes has a fun kind of talent. And one of them, there are two sons of Boreas. who are called Zetes and Palaeus, and they can fly. And they have purple wings. According to Pindar, they have purple wings. Now, they'll come into play when... Jason meets the harpies when they chase the harpies away. And Apollonius totally blows it.

He could have a great scene where they're flying after the harpies and stuff, but he just has them kind of ambiguously chasing the harpies. So those guys can fly. Then there's another guy I mentioned called Euphemus, and he's the son of Poseidon. He can walk on the water.

Is that not cool? I mean, I can totally see a film of these guys. You know, two guys can fly with purple wings. One guy can walk on the water. And then you've got Orpheus, of course, who plays music so beautifully that when they come to the island of the sirens, instead of having to plug up their ears with wax like Odysseus, he can kind of play his music and overwhelm their siren song.

Only one guy jumps in the water to get to them. So there's some really cool other heroes, I think. So I said Castor and Pollux, Orpheus, Heracles, Zetes and Callais, and of course, Euphemus, who can walk on water. And then Atalanta, according to some versions, but not in Apollonius' version.

Exactly. And I think I mentioned that I call this generation the Caledonian Argonauts. So a lot of them go on the Caledonian boar hunt, and she's one who went on the Caledonian boar hunt.

and she could run super fast and she her father didn't want her to marry so he said or she didn't want to marry so she said you can only marry me if you can beat me in a race and the guy who beat her threw a golden apple three golden apples to distract her and managed to win the race that way so this is before she has run the race she's appears on a lot of greek vases

wrestling Peleus, the father of Achilles. That's apparently some fun story that we've kind of lost, but it's on a lot of pots, Greek pots, so that's lots of fun. I talk about that in my book about the Greek gods and goddesses. Pantheon, she said, giving in a little plug for her book.

This is a throwaway line in Apollonius. They stop on Samothrace and they're initiated into the Mysteries. Then they get to the famous clashing rocks because they're coming up to the Hellespont, which is a narrow channel of water that goes from the Aegean, I believe, into the Propontis and then the Black Sea.

And those are the famous clashing rocks, which Pindar describes as being alive, which is really good. And they're often confused with the rocks, the other rocks with Scylla and Charybdis down by Sicily. But these are clashing rocks. And again, that's done really in the film. It's huge fun. A giant triton comes up and holds the rocks apart. And there are other methods. They...

Absolutely. And no other story from the Greek myth has been retold in as many different ways by as many different authors as Jason and the Argonauts. And it's one of my favorites. I think it started off being one of my favorites because of the 1963 film, Jason and the Argonauts, which is so cheesy, but it's so wonderful. And it's got amazing special effects by Ray Harryhausen.

In Apollonius, they let a dove through and the dove goes through and the rocks clash and just get its tail feathers. And then as they're opening again, they quickly row and get through that way. And again, they get their tail feathers kind of clipped off the very back of the ship. What's that called? The sternum. They get that clipped off. So that's the next fun bit. It's the clashing rocks.

But then we go to Propontis, which is a little mini sea before they get to the Black Sea. And a very sad thing happens here. They land on another island. And people there, Prince is called Sisychus. And he's young again with downy hair and a beautiful young wife. And they're very friendly. And they welcome the Argonauts. And they feast them. And they even let them spend the night with them.

The unmarried women, again, being very, very generous here. Argonauts are great. Everybody's happy in there. Bye-bye. So the Argonauts sail off. That night there's a terrible storm, which makes them run aground, and it's night. And when they get onto the beach, the people there start to attack them, and they fight back, and they kill the people who are attacking them.

And when dawn comes, they've killed their hosts from the day before. So young Sisychus has been murdered, and his wife is so destitute that she hangs herself. And they try to do funeral games in apology, but it's no good. They've killed their hosts from the day before. So they're kind of blundering around. You're getting the sense that they're blundering around.

Absolutely. I'm impressed, so impressed by your knowledge of geography. And this is what I'm saying. You've got the exotica of these traveling to these amazing places, but also the etiology. Oh, that's where it gets its name. That guy died there. So he's given his name to that place and now he'll always be memorialized with that name.

So yeah, and we're getting more and more exotic and more and more strange things happen. And then they come to a really fun island or the place where Phineas the blind prophet lives. And of course, this is the story of the harpies. and how Phineas, again, he snubbed some god, I think it was Zeus, and Zeus punishes him by making him blind, but giving him prophetic powers.

So Phineas knows that Jason's going to come save him from the harpies, which are these horrible, Half women, half birds, who in some accounts have rooster heads and female bodies and claws. And they defecate and drip saliva everywhere. And they befoul all the food so that you can't even stand the smell. And when poor Phineas sits down to eat, they come and they befoul his food and take it away.

Now, in the film, they do an amazing thing. And I'm sorry I keep harking on about the film, but it's so brilliant. They actually filmed it in Paestum, south of Pompeii, where there's some ancient Greek temples, Doric temples, Tuhira. And they actually have the actors climbing on one of these temples. They wouldn't be able to do it today. And they put a big net over it. And it's not CGI.

It's a real net. The harpies are claymation, and they actually catch the harpies with this net. In Apollonius, this is where Zetes and Callias, the flying sons of Boreas, come in, and they chase the harpies, and they fly after them with their swords.

all the way going west, west, west, west, west, to some islands called the Strophades, which are little islands off the left-hand side of Greece, which is the west, and where Aeneas will go. And that's where he's going to meet the Harpies later on. So they get to stop there. And Strophades actually means turning, the turning, because that's where Cetes and Callias turn around and fly back.

including gods that grow in puffs of smoke and Jason being taken to Mount Olympus and put on a board like he's a little chess piece, and Talos, the bronze man who turns his head and chases them slowly around the island, and the skeletons that Jason has to fight. It's just so visually stunning. We watched it again last night, and it's just so cheesy and so fun.

with the Argonauts. So they've chased away the Harpies and there are different versions of the Harpies and what they're like and who Phineas was and everything. That's huge fun.

Let's jump to Colchis. And of course, they arrive at Colchis, which is the end of the world. And there are various ways where they meet Medea. But in most of them, I'm afraid the gods have a part to play and make her fall in love with him so that she will help him. Now, at Colchis, the king of Colchis is Aetes, the king with too many E's in his name. A-E-E-T-E-S. Too many E's.

And he's the father of a couple of daughters and a son named Absurtus and Medea is the youngest. And she's a priestess of Hecate. She's a sorceress, a witch. She's very young in Apollonius and quite vulnerable and very sympathetic. And she falls in love with Jason. So she's very torn about whether she should be loyal to support him or her father.

And Ovid does this a lot, too, because Ovid and his metamorphoses really gets into Medea's head. And I think we were talking before that she, as soon as Medea appears, all the focus goes on her and away from poor Jason. She's so much more fascinating than Jason, who's quite bland at times. She falls in love with Jason because of his beauty.

And Aetes says, okay, you can have the golden fleece, but you must do this task. You must harness my bronze, two bronze bulls with breathe fire and sew some dragon's teeth. And if you can do that, I'll let you have the fleece. And of course, it's an impossible task, except that Medea gives him some special anointing oil to put on himself and his weapons to protect him from the flames.

And he's able to harness it. the fire-breathing bulls, and so the teeth, which go back to Cadmus, way back in Cadmus. Whole other story. The movie does a very clever thing. It has him kill the dragon, which doesn't happen in Apollonius, and then use those dragon's teeth to sew them. And of course, that's when these wonderful skeleton warriors pop up out of the ground.

But in most versions, most of the ancient versions, he has to do the plowing of the teeth first, and then Aeetes says he'll give him the fleece. But Aeetes does not give him the fleece, so he's got to get it by another method. Now you'd expect him to be a brave soldier, or rather not soldier, but warrior, and use his sword to kill the dragon and everything.

The snake, Drakon, means the same thing. And it's described as being as big as the Argo. So this is not your ordinary snake or dragon. It's a snake as big as the Argo ship. What he does is Medea just uses a charm to put it to sleep, which is a little bit anticlimactic. And again, in the film, they make it a hydra and he stabs the hydra and kills it that way.

He gets the fleece and now he's going to go home. So that happened pretty quickly, actually. A lot of it is the traveling there. And then they get there and it's slightly anticlimactic, except a lot of it's in Medea's head, her torturous inner debate about what she should do. And that's, of course, what makes it so fascinating and her so fascinating.

But really, he's a very wonderful hero. And I think one of the reasons his story is the most retold is it's kind of the primal hero's journey narrative. And the hero's journey, as I'm sure you know, is when a hero goes on a quest to get a thing, which Alfred Hitchcock calls the MacGuffin. It's just something the hero goes for to get them on the journey and along the way they meet

They've got a long way to get back. And you're exactly right. It's not the thing they get. It's not the fleece, the MacGuffin, the magic potion, the sword, whatever, the princess. It's the journey that's important and what the hero learns and who he meets and who he fights and who he falls in love with and who he loses and who he mourns that's important.

And again, he'll come back to the he comes back to the same place at the end. And again, if you look at that wonderful map of his journey, he's going all over the place, including many across land. And so they're now they're warned by an oracle. Don't go back the way you came. So they decide to go by a different route. So they sail up the Danube.

They go up the Danube all the way across, whatever those are called, the Balkans or whatever, to the sea on the right of Italy, which is, I believe, called the Adriatic Sea.

Yeah, you've got your boot of Italy. They go to that bit there, the Adriatic. That's where they pop out. And their pursuers, Aetes takes, according to Apollonius, Aetes takes half the Colchian fleet and follows, goes back the way Jason came. But Absurtus, the younger brother, takes half the fleet and follows Jason across the Danube.

And when they get to the Adriatic Sea, this is where, in Apollonius' version, Medea lures Absurtus to a talk. And Jason kills him. And then when he's dead, they go and kill everybody on his ship. And the rest of the fleet are so discouraged that they decide to not go home and just settle there. And that place is called the Absurdean Islands or something like that. Again, another etiological.

How did these people from the Black Sea get to this part of near Italy? In Apollodorus' version, he's also writing in Greek at the end of the 1st century AD, he's the one who tells how Medea chops up her brother, takes him with him on the ship, chops him up in bits and tosses him in the sea so her father, who's pursuing them, stops to pick up the bits.

So there are different variations on how absurdus is used as a kind of terrible distraction.

Absolutely right. They start off with the most noble of motives and they deteriorate as they go along the way. And Jason, again, is often shown to be indecisive in Apollonius' version. And we also, as you say, get this focus on some of the other characters like Medea or on some of the other heroes who, again, have an etiological function to perform. But this is a terrible thing they've done.

It's such a terrible thing. Killing ordinary people is bad, but killing your own flesh and blood is abhorrent to the gods and they need purification. So they're now told that they need to go to see Circe on her island and that she will cleanse them from purification. So this is quite surprising.

Circe's the witch, of course, who had Odysseus on her island for quite a while and did lots of fun things with him. But she is now the one who can purify them. So they've now got to go to the home of Circe somewhere off the western coast of Italy. So that's another one of the tropes, the cleansing of Absurtus's murder by Jason and Medea.

allies and opponents and they undergo tests and trials and they finally return back home and they've learned what they need to learn and the hero's journey of course is joseph campbell coined that phrase and said that all world myths can be summed up in this cycle the hero's journey and then hollywood screenwriters just ran with it george lucas was the first to take

They then sail up the river Eridamus, which is the Po, and then they go over the Alps somehow. Don't ask me how. Down the Rhône, the Rhône River, and then down by the Tyrrhenian Sea. That's where they meet Circe, according to Apollonius. Then they're going down to the home of the Sirens, which is down on the shin of Italy, again in the Tyrrhenian Sea.

Then they go through Scylla and Charybdis, and they go up to Drapane. I'm looking at the map here because there's no other way to understand it. Drapane is, again, near Albania or maybe Corfu. Then they sail down to Syrtis, and that's how they get to North Africa.

They get blown off course, and that's where Jason meets three nymphs, the guardians of Libya, and he's instructed to carry the Argo across the desert. And then they go to Lake Triton, which is where they meet Triton, the son of Poseidon, who reveals a secret passage back to the sea. We're almost done here. You'll be glad to hear the end is in sight.

Now we get one of the best bits where they go to Crete and they meet Talos, the bronze man. And he is amazing. And in the film, Jason and the Argonauts, he appears at the very beginning. And there's this amazing scene of, I don't know if you've ever seen it, but he's like this giant bronze crouching statue on a treasure house.

And when Heracles steals a golden pin, his head turns with a horrible metallic creaking and he gets down off his plinth and follows them. Like if you can imagine the Colossus of Rhodes, a great gigantic bronze statue. clomping after tiny ant-like men. It's absolutely brilliant, chilling, fantastic.

And in the film, Jason conquers him by unplugging a plug in his heel and letting out the ichor, the magic juice or blood. But in Apollonius... He's vanquished by Medea, who from a distance from the ship gives him the evil eye using magical incantations and calling down spirits of death. And she uses her eye beams and curses him.

And he then scratches his vulnerable ankle vein on a rock and the ichor flows out. He crashes to the ground like a great pine tree. coming down at night on the top of a mountain. So he's a wonderful character. Thales, there are different origins for him. One is that Hephaestus made him. And I like the origin that he's made to guard the island of Crete, which he can run around three times each day.

And he even appears on coins of Crete, this giant bronze man. So he's huge fun. We only have one more thing to happen. before they get home. And that's this really spooky kind of incident where after they leave Crete, this terrible darkness comes down upon them and they can't see where they are. And it's the worst darkness. It's like worse than death.

And Jason and his men pray to Apollo, who lights the night with his flashing arrows until dawn comes. And they find themselves on this little island and they're nearly home. And finally they get home.

the idea of the hero's journey and make it into Star Wars. And then another guy, Christopher Vogler, wrote a book called The Writer's Journey. And then Blake Snyder, another Hollywood screenwriter, actually coined a genre, the Golden Fleece Story, which is the hero's journey. So he actually calls it the Golden Fleece genre, where the hero goes on a quest to get a thing and comes home again.

Guess how long that whole journey takes.

According to Apollodorus, our latest source, four months. I think it'd be fun to do that, to actually follow in the steps of Jason. And it would probably take you about four months to do that, stopping along all those wonderful places.

Too many E's in his name.

You've done it brilliantly. It's essentially a Mediterranean tour, isn't it?

And Black Sea, yeah, absolutely.

Not really. I think he's got to go to Corinth for some reason, and he can't even have his kingdom. And of course, then that's where he meets another woman and he abandons Medea or wants to marry this other woman. And I think that's a whole other story that many people know so much better than I do. But shall I just tell you about his death?

No, it's quite sad. He's an old man and he goes to remember his glory days and he sits under the Argo in the shade of the Argo and a bit falls off and bonks him on the head and he dies. That's kind of how I want to go. Just sitting under and bonked on the head. But I'm gone.

Yeah, he's broken definitely after what happened with Medea and his own weakness. And that's a fascinating thing about the Greek heroes is they're often anti-heroes. They're like us. And that's, I think, one of the reasons that makes them so enduringly fascinating and popular.

I think it has. And I think many of these Greek myths have. But as we were saying at the beginning, this is the quintessential hero's journey with lots of adventures along the way and lots of lessons to be learned.

It's called Pantheon, a companion to the Greek and Roman gods and goddesses. And it's got lots of little fun facts.

Thank you. It's been really fun.

Yes, you get the single hero, the lone hero, you know, who goes off on his own, maybe with gadgets like Perseus. You know, he's got lots of gadgets to help him. And Heracles has his weapons. But Jason is fun because he gathers allies, a bit like Neo in The Matrix, who actually goes on a ship called the Argo and has pals with him. That's a fun aspect that there are all these different helpers.

It's a team exercise, but also that the Greeks were so interested in their world. And in this, Jason sails to these amazing places. that they might or might not have heard of. And actually, the journey always changes as people, the poets keep retelling it and get more knowledge of the geography. They get more and more accurate about where he's going. And so it's kind of a travelogue, really.

You can travel and go to these amazing places and meet amazing characters. So I think those are fascinating. And there's also an etiological element. That's, of course, explaining how things came to be. For example, how certain races of people founded different cities. If we have time, I'll tell you about Euphemus later on, one of the Argonauts who has a really fascinating story.

Well, yeah. And in a way, all of Greek mythology is this spider web of connections and interconnections. And what's really interesting about Jason is that he's the generation before the Iliad. So he's what I called the Caledonian Argonauts. They went on the Caledonian boar hunt and they went on the Argo. And they're often the fathers, like Peleus, the father of Achilles, is on the Argo with Jason.

So We haven't yet had the Trojan War. And in fact, Jason was raised by Chiron the centaur. And when he sets off on his quest, he waves bye-bye to Chiron, who's holding little baby Achilles, because of course, Chiron teaches Achilles. Chiron the centaur is the great teacher and kind of mentor. So that's really fun.

And I think that that's something to keep in mind, that these are the generations before the Trojan War, and then we're going to get all these subsequent fantastic stories.

I'm glad you asked. I think it's probably got an oral tradition, as the Iliad and the Odyssey did, so a lot of oral stuff was already there. Almost everybody mentions him, but let me just tell you who the six main, I found six main poets. We've got Pindar in the 6th century BC, tells about the quest. Herodotus in the 5th century BC. Callimachus, the 4th century BC.

Apollonius Rhodius in the 3rd century. Diodorus Siculus in the 1st century BC. Then you go to the Roman. You've got Ovid and Valerius Flaccus. Ovid kind of straddles the two centuries. Valerius Flaccus was a Flavian author who wrote a version called the Argonautica as well in Latin. And finally, we've got Apollodorus, who does a really succinct kind of summary at the end of the first century.

So they all told the quest, but the earliest mention we get is in the Iliad, where Homer actually mentions Jason's son, which is really fun. He doesn't mention the quest. He just says, Many ships were there from Lemnos, bearing wine, sent forth by Jason's son Euneus, whom Hypsipyle bore to Jason, shepherd of the host.

Now that's a really interesting little epithet that's given to Jason, the shepherd of the host. And it's also used by Hesiod, who's about the same time as Homer, who mentions Jason marrying Medea and also calls him a shepherd of the people or shepherd of the host.

And then you also get a mention in the Odyssey, one line, that the Argo was the only ship that ever went through the clashing rocks safely. They've got the little snippets that show that in the 8th century, they knew about him, but the first complete story of the quest is from Pindar. One of his Pythianodes, the fourth Pythianode, often considered his best.

And that's in, actually, we know the exact date of that. It's 462 BCE is the date of the fourth Pythianode that first tells the story of Jason. And it's got some of the basic elements in it, but not all.

Yeah, it does. It does. What it does is it stays pretty much the same. You've got the tropes, but they will emphasize what they want to emphasize for their political... One thing I realized is that poets were political in the past, that the fourth Pythian Ode was actually written, probably commissioned by a man who wanted to be reinstated in favor with a certain king.

So he got Pindar to write this ode to the king who'd won a chariot race with hints of, you know, I'm your pal, reinstate me. And of course, we know that Virgil wrote the Aeneid to promote Octavian, who became Augustus. And so there's a lot of political stuff in the retellings. And then you get different flavors according to their tastes.

For example, Apollonius Rhodius, who's the Hellenistic writer in the so-called Alexandrian style, which apparently means fancy schmancy, showing off your knowledge.

He is the 3rd century BC. Yeah. 2nd century BC. Yeah. He's right in around 250 BC. So apparently he writes the best Medea, apart from Euripides, of course. He writes a really good Medea, but his Jason is insipid. Whereas Valerius Flaccus is said to write a really good Jason, but Medea is kind of skimmed over. So they show their interest, but they play with the same basic tropes.

And that's what I think all of those who retell the myths today do. We take these basic building blocks of each myth and we emphasize the one that we want to promote our own views with.

Yeah, well, he's great. He's often introduced, grown up, and then we have a little flashback to him. And in, I think, probably the best, one of the most famous accounts is Apollonius of Rhodes, the one who wrote around 250 BC, his Argonautica. He starts off with Jason arrives with one sandal, essentially. So let me just tell you basically first what

the kind of essence of Jason is, what his basic story was. All the traditions agree that Jason is a hero who goes with a bunch of other heroes called the Argonauts to get a fleece from a faraway country called Colchis. the country of Aetes, father of Medea. He's got to overcome lots of tasks and he's got to get the fleece from the dragon and bring it back to claim his kingdom.

So that's the kind of basic account. And most of the accounts give Jason 50 heroes on his journey. One or two give him 100. But he sails in a pentaconter, a ship with 50 oars. So it makes sense that you've got 50 heroes, one for each oar. And his name is interesting. It means healer or atoner. And it's actually linked to the word, the name Jesus in some accounts. or Joshua. So that's interesting.

And he's the son of Eson, grandson of Cruthias, and he's the heir to the throne of Iolcus, which is kind of In Greece and Thessaly, and if you imagine Athens and Olympia up north, halfway between, kind of on the coast there, that's Thessaly, and it's now a place called Volos.

So he's going to set out from Colchis, go to the end of the world, which is essentially he's going to go to Colchis, which is the Black Sea. That's that big body of water above Turkey on the right-hand side. I'm not good with east and west, so the very right-hand side. Go there. through all sorts of places, and then come back again. So that's his most basic story.

And we start off with him arriving with one sandal. And the ruler of Eolkus, who's, I think, his uncle, Pelias, which should be his kingdom, has been warned about the one-sandaled man. Now, some of the accounts are really fun. They have Jason just losing the sandal as he crosses a river. One account has Jason...

saving an old woman in a river who's actually Hera in disguise, and he loses his sandal that way. So that shows he's kind and good and noble, and Hera likes him and she's going to be his helper. Unusually, because Hera is usually the enemy of most heroes.

Very unusual. And in the great film, there's a little twist in the film of Jason and the Argonauts where she appears on the riverbank and makes Plius, the evil king, fall in the water and Jason rescues him. And when they come out, Plius looks down and sees he only has one sandal. So that's a really good twist. So that's the first trope is the prophecy about the man will come.

Zeus is going to factor, as we know, big in all the myths because he's always desiring nymphs, girls, women, goddesses, whatever. Sure enough, he spotted Io and desired her. And he went to seduce her or whatever. And then he heard Hera coming. So he quickly turned Io into a heifer so that Hera wouldn't be suspicious. But Hera was not fooled.

And she set a god's lie to torment this poor heifer, Io, who was running all over the place. So already in Europa's ancestry, we've got a great-great-grandmother who was turned into a cow. Then Europa... was, as I said, she's a Phoenician princess playing on the seashore one day. Zeus spots her and likes her. So he takes the form of a beautiful bull and goes along the beach.

And she comes up to him because he's so beautiful. And he lets her stroke him. And all the girls she's with are amazed that she's so bold. And then she actually climbs on his back. And off he goes over the sea and ends up in Crete. So he takes Europa to Crete, and that's where we get the term Europe, though Crete, what do we call Crete Europe? I don't know. So anyway, they have three sons.

Zeus and Europa have three sons, Minos, Radamanthus, and Sarpedon. And as sons do, they all vie with each other for the kingship and Essentially, Minos sends the other two off to somewhere else where they found other places. But Minos still has to legitimize his claim to the throne of Crete for the kingship.

So he says to everybody, look, I'm going to call on Poseidon, or in some cases Zeus, but mainly Poseidon, most of the myths. to show you that I am the chosen one. Poseidon, send me a bull from the sea." Sure enough, Poseidon sends him a bull from the sea and we've still got the cow motif going on here. It was so beautiful and Minos said, I will sacrifice this bull to you, of course, Poseidon.

The bull is so beautiful that he cannot bear to sacrifice it. He puts it into his herd and gets an inferior substitute and sacrifices that. Uh-oh indeed.

Not a good idea. And these monsters often come as a result of some crime against the gods or hubris or something. So Poseidon is not happy, and he's furious, and as punishment, he arranges for Pasiphae, the wife of Minos, to fall in love with that bull. So Peisiphae is trying to think about how she can get it on with that bull.

And she asks an exile from Athens named Daedalus, the very clever inventor, if he can come up with an idea. And he comes up. He makes a hollow frame of a cow, covers it with cowhide, and she can hide inside. so that she can mate with the bull. So that's one of his inventions.

And nine months later, a little baby is born, and that baby has the body of a child, according to most depictions and accounts, and the head of a bull.

Tristan, it is wonderful to be here.

Exactly. And now this baby is born and we have a wonderful vase that's in Paris at the moment. And it shows Paisa Phi with a little toddler Minos on her lap. And he's got little horns. And I think they suckled kids till they were quite old, like four or five and even older sometimes. in that period. And at first you think, oh, she loves her little baby, her little Minotaur.

But if you look closely, her mouth is turned down and she's not quite touching him. And so I wonder if there's something of a revulsion. She thinks, what have I done? And her husband Minos, of course, he's married to this woman and she gives birth to this monster. He's horrified. And he consults an oracle and

He doesn't just kill it because it's obviously, you know, there's something special about this creature. He doesn't just kill it. He consults an oracle and the oracle says to hide him away and put him in a labyrinth. So he gets Daedalus, again, the inventor, and the labyrinth is designed by Daedalus himself. to keep the bull hidden, this monster minotaur hidden away from human sight.

And because it's an aberration, it's not natural, it can't eat hay or straw or grass like a bull, so it must be fed human flesh. So of course, according to the myth, the Athenians for various reasons have to send Nine boys and girls every seven years, or seven boys and girls every nine years, something like that, as tribute to this minotaur.

Absolutely. I'm afraid I couldn't fit everybody into my book, and he does not make it into my book really. But of course, apparently he committed some crime in Athens and they exiled him and he fled to Crete. He was incredibly clever. The first thing he created was this cow for Pasiphae. Then he created the labyrinth, but they kept him prisoner so that he wouldn't tell.

Minos didn't want him to get out and say what he'd created, so they kept him and his son Icarus prisoner. We all know the story that he devised a clever way to escape by making wings of light wood or reed with wax and feathers and designed these beautiful wings.

Absolutely. Yeah, they're a wonderful part of Greek mythology. I think one of the things that we love about Greek myths are the amazing images that you don't get in any other culture or storytelling or scenario. And I just, you know, when I think of Greek myths, I think of things like a giant wooden horse standing in the middle of a flaming city. Who thought that up? That's amazing.

Again, an extraordinary idea that even back then, they had a craving, an idea of how you could fly, and they had certain gods who could fly. And of course, Hermes, the messenger god, could fly. But anyway, Icarus makes the wings, and we all know the story of how he warns his son not to go too high because... He thinks the sun might melt the wax.

Sure enough, Icarus goes high, the wax melts, and he plunges into the sea, which is called the Icarian Sea from then on after him.

Oh no, we know that. What's fascinating is that the Greeks have the word labyrinth, and they know what it means. Plato, in one of his dialogues, he says something about has Socrates say, at this point, we were involved in a labyrinthine discussion. So they know what it means. And they saw coins from Crete, which have a maze on them on one side, going way back. Of course, the Cretan civilization

had gone by about, I believe, about 1400 BC. It was a Bronze Age civilization. The Mycenaeans invaded. Then Crete was gone. There was eruption of Thera or whatever. And so this was a dim memory to the Greeks. But they kept seeing these coins with a maze on it. And these were coins of Knossos. And

In about the late 1800s, a couple of archaeologists decided to start digging where they found these coins. And they found, famously, in fact, Arthur Evans, rich Englishman, he bought part of Crete, this area in Crete, and started digging and found the ruins of this enormous palace complex. which looks like a labyrinth when you see it laid out. And it had no walls.

It didn't need town walls because Crete is an island. And it was almost like a city palace. It had shops and workshops and housing and frescoes on the wall and columns and courtyards. And so in a way, it looks like a labyrinth even today. And Arthur Evans saw this double-headed axe, which is called a labrys, written on, scrawled on some of the walls.

And so he thought the word labrys and labyrinth might have been linked. Those scholars aren't sure about that. So he named this palace at Knossos the House of the Axe. But I think that's probably where the idea of the labyrinth comes from, is this massive palace with labyrinthine rooms and corridors.

It's amazing because if you think about Schliemann, he believed that there was a Trojan War. So he went looking where he thought it would have taken place, where Troy might have been.

Yes, Heinrich Schliemann, exactly. And he found Troy. And in the same way, Arthur Evans, Sir Arthur Evans around 1900, let's say, he went and started digging where they found all these coins. And he found Knossos. So there is some historical material basis for many of these myths.

Only human food.

It's an aberration against nature and it needs a tribute. And I don't know if that's some kind of a remnant of sacrifice or, I mean, they've actually found human bones and traces of cannibalism in Crete. So maybe that's fed into somehow this memory of this civilization that had been gone for a thousand years by the time the Greek poets were writing about it and the Greek tragedians.

Or something like, I asked my husband, I just asked him, I said, when I say Greek mythology, what images come to mind? He said, the judgment of Paris, you know, this shepherd standing in front of three goddesses, often nude, judging them during a beauty contest. Things like just the birth of Aphrodite, things like that. And

And so Theseus has to go. He decides to go. And for various reasons, the tributes, I think they come from Athens. Some of the tributes come from Athens, these kids who have to be sacrificed every nine years. And Theseus decides that before he can become king of Athens, which is his birthright, he's going to dispatch the Minotaur. So he goes with this boatload of tributes.

And there's the famous story of his father, Aegeus, says, don't go. And he says, I'll go. I'll conquer the Minotaur. I'll come back. I'll change the black sail to white to show you that I've done it. Of course, he forgets. And conveniently... Conveniently, Aegeus jumps into the Aegean Sea. Interesting it's called after him. And Theseus becomes king.

But anyway, back on the ship, they arrive in Crete. And there are lots of retellings of this, but the basic Greek myth is that Ariadne, a princess, another daughter of Minos and Pacify, falls in love with him. And she tells him the secret of killing the Minotaur who's in this dark labyrinth. Imagine, we all have dreams, don't we, about getting lost. Imagine going into a dark underground labyrinth.

And I don't know if it's worse if it would be pitch black or if there'd be torches with spooky light, you know, making shadows loom and stuff. I don't know which would be more terrifying. It would be terrifying. He's got to find his way to the center of this maze, kill the Minotaur, and then get back. And Ariadne gives him the famous thread or the twine.

And if he can just keep hold of the thread as it unspools, he can use it to find his way back. Now, one thing that's fascinating to me about this myth is it's a perfect example of what's called the hero's journey, which is this kind of template of storytelling that we find in almost, well, many of the Greek myths. And many Hollywood screenwriters love this hero's journey structure.

And they use it for... their stories, which don't have to be about heroes and Greek myths. I mean, Dorothy and the Wizard of Oz follows this template. Star Wars follows this template. Pixar's Upt follows this template. I could go on and on telling you all the films that follow the template of the hero's journey, where the hero gets a call to adventure.

They have to leave their ordinary world and go, they have to cross a threshold. This is very important. Thresholds are super important. A threshold into a new world of adventure. So just think of Theseus going into the labyrinth. And often before the hero goes, a helper called a mentor will give them advice and give them a talisman, an object.

So in this bit of the story, Ariadne is the mentor and she gives Theseus, a ball of string, which is the talisman, and that's going to help him. Now, according to some accounts, he just punches the Minotaur, but we mostly see him with a sword on depictions.

He goes into the Minotaur and into the labyrinth, and there's often a step in the hero's journey called the visit to death, and this is the visit to death. It's symbolic of going to the underworld. And almost every hero in Greek mythology goes to the underworld in one way or another. And then the hero must do the task. They must take the elixir, kill the monster, save the princess, whatever.

When I think about it, I have to say, I think about it a lot from Greek vases and the primary sources, but for me, when I was growing up, The Greek myths were Ray Harryhausen films. And some of those films, Jason and the Argonauts and Clash of the Titans, Jason and the Argonauts about Jason, Clash of the Titans about Perseus, have some of the most stunning imagery that will never leave my head.

And then they must get back home again. And then they have to cross another threshold to get back home. So we often see Anvaz's thesis emerging from the labyrinth. And it's often shown by a couple of columns and a pediment. And sometimes the Minotaur is there with him.

Of course, the Minotaur has been left in the center, but it just shows us that that's what he's just been doing is killing the Minotaur. So it's this wonderful story of the hero's journey in a little encapsulation, which has all the elements he could want.

Very important, the getting back is very important. And if you look at myths and stories, you have to see how they get back. And when they get back, they've changed. Their whole journey, what it's done, it's trained them in some way.

It's helped them become who they're meant to be, whether it's a leader or to save the world like Wally when he saves the earth by bringing back the plant or whatever it is. It's a genius, genius template for storytellers everywhere. So exciting. I think it's really great.

Of course, when he gets out of the maze, he then takes Ariadne with him because she's betrayed her father and killed her half-brother, the Minotaur. Theseus wasn't a very nice person. He abandons her later on the island.

And in fact, Theseus is pretty bad as his record for women. So we won't look too much into that. We'll go back to the Minotaur.

Yeah, and maybe that's what happens when we slay the monsters in our life. We just leave them and there's a kind of little decaying corpse of that thing that was haunting us in our deep, deep subconscious of our labyrinthine brain. So there are writers out there, there's your story. What happened to the Minotaur after he died? I think once they die, they die and he's underground.

So, you know, he's essentially been buried.

Great question. And we know from Ovid that he likes the Minotaur. And I love looking at the vases and the frescoes. And we've got some wonderful frescoes from Pompeii of Theseus and the Minotaur. So yes, he's still very, very popular. Obviously, monsters go in and out of fashion. What really interests me is what we've done with him in the last... 100, 200 years about pop culture.

Do you mind if I talk about that a little bit?

So the Greek myths, just amazing, amazing.

Well, let's talk about one of the most famous paintings of the Minotaur, which is by, is it Watts?

That's him, GF, George Frederick Watts.

So this is really fascinating because there was a bill trying to be put through Parliament about raising the act of consent for children and worrying about child prostitution, which was a real problem in Victorian period.

And it was so distressing that this Watts, who was one of the most popular artists of his time, he read the article, went to sleep, and the next morning he woke up and painted this amazing painting of the Minotaur in one morning.

And it shows the minotaur from the back. He's slightly turned away from us. He's leaning on a balustrade. He's not underground. He's looking out at the sea. And when you first look at it, he looks quite lonely and sympathetic. One scholar has commented his face looks almost dog-like, and he's got long eyelashes. But then if you look more closely, it's kind of creepy.

Because first of all, it looks like he's looking at you out of the corner of his eye. And then you notice that in his hand, he's crushed a bird, a little tiny bird he's crushed dead. And then you see what he's looking at is a ship bringing the tribute of children for him. And this was, he became a metaphor for the sort of person

who enjoys abusing underage children or children at all for in horrible ways. And so it was a real statement about what was happening in society at that moment. I was so excited to hear that the Tate Britain has all Watts's paintings. So I went to look at it and it's in storage. So I tweeted the Tate, bring it out.

especially with the current popularity of Greek mythology, the resurgence, people looking at it, retelling it, using the myths to talk about what's happening now, which is what the myths are so useful for, to bring it out. What's really interesting is that the famous short story writer, Jorge Luis Borges, wrote a short story partly inspired by that painting

He was putting out a magazine and he had two pages to fill. So he thought, I'll write a short story, two pages long. And he wrote a story called The House of Asterion. And Asterion was the name of the minotaur in ancient Greek. And although it's very short, it's considered a classic.

Because it's arguably the first story about an ancient monster that's told from the monster's point of view, which is super interesting.

And I was thinking, you know, for example, how would we do it right now, today? How would we tell the myth of the Minotaur? And I was just thinking about the cattle connection and that... a bull would be equal to a car in modern terms. And I thought, well, what if a woman mated with a car? And actually there was a, in 2021, an ultra-violent French film called Titane won the Palme d'Or.

I'm sure the Minotaur is in Harry Potter and Percy Jackson, but I haven't read all those books, so I'm not, I'm sure they're there, and I'm sure they're probably some computer games. Before we talk about chaos, my favorite depiction of the Minotaur is by Mary Reynolds, who was writing in the 1950s, 60s, and 70s. She wrote a trilogy about Theseus, and the first one's called The King Must Die.

She has a really clever take on the Minotaur. She has the bull, the cow, the kind of model made by Daedalus is for these bull jumpers, because we know in Crete, in Knossos, the palace of Knossos, we know from frescoes that

Well, my latest book is called Pantheon, and it's actually about the 12 Olympians, or actually there were 14. So I do the 14 major gods, but I thought I couldn't leave out the minor gods. And then I thought, well, I've got to include the heroes. And I'm afraid the monsters come right at the end, and I don't do them all. But I do do quite a few.

that there was a bull motif, that there were bull, giant bull horns on some of these buildings, and that we see frescoes of these young acrobats jumping over bulls in a kind of early version of bullfighting, which must have been terrifying, but also impressive.

So Mary Reynolds has Theseus coming as tribute that they have to, these 14 children, seven boys and seven girls, have to learn how to dance with the bulls and become bull leapers. So in the bullring where they're training, they have a practice cowl, like the way gymnasts have, what do you call it, a horse or whatever.

Absolutely. They're jumping on this, whatever, this bolster quite creature. I wonder if that's actually a holdover for the bull jumpers, the bull leapers. Anyway, it's very clever because they've created, like the bull, the cow that Pacify occupies, the framework of a cow or a bull that someone can climb inside and operate it from inside. And according to Mary Reynolds,

The Minotaur is the son, Asterion, of not Minos, but Pasiphae, Pasiphae, who fell in love with a bull leaper from Assyria. So he was kind of a hairy guy, though he was quite young at the time. He impregnated her, then died in the bull ring. And she gave birth to this kind of... He's human, but he doesn't look Cretan.

He doesn't have the slim build of many Cretans and the honey-colored skin of many Cretans. He's kind of hairier and has bulging eyes and a kind of bull-like neck. So what Mary Reynolds has done is made him a person with kind of bestial aspects. And what the really clever thing is, she says that...

When Pacify was really in love with him, she'd sneak into the bullring and hide in the cow to wait to meet him. So it's a very clever kind of modern take, kind of rationalizing what the Minotaur might have been.

And the book that got me interested in classics that started my whole passion for classics was called The Last of the Wine. And it's set in ancient Athens in the time of Plato, Socrates, and Xenophon. I read that when I was 19, and it changed my life.

Chaos. Let's talk all about Chaos.

Yeah, and what I say in my book is one reason we like the myths is they're so archetypal, and the gods and goddesses, they're good to think with. They're good to play with. They're kind of archetypal characters, and we can play around with them and change them. And that's what the Greek tragedians did, Sophocles, Euripides, and Aeschylus did way back then.

And of course, my favorite, Aristophanes, who's not a tragedian at all. But we can play with them. And I think you and I were both at the British Museum when they aired the first episode with Charlie Cavell, the creator, Jeff Goldblum, on a panel afterwards, which was so fascinating. And so, yes, it's a retelling of the Greek myths, not using all the gods, but some of them.

And in a way, the whole book is kind of just a little introduction. And I often say that I kind of boil down these complex mythological characters to their essence, to the kind of stock cubes of who and what they were. So I just give a little paragraph on each. So it's perfect for the attention span of today's reader, just a little box about each one.

But Charlie does a really interesting thing with the Minotaur. they have that the Minotaur is the child of Minos and that there was a prophecy that the firstborn child of Minos would kill the father. So Minos locks away the son, though he's normal, in a labyrinth and almost creates a beast by denying him love, affection,

physical contact puts him in a mask of a of a bull for some reason so again it's got a kind of explanation and he becomes a very sympathetic character and this is the thing we can do is we can take these

monsters, and we can kind of, I'm saying monsters with inverted commas, we can rehabilitate them and show what might have caused them to become that way, which I think is a great thing about many of these modern retellings. They give us a new view of the monster, though I do think the power of the monster is this deep psychological bogeyman.

Yes, I think so. And I think any of these weird combinations of these hybrids are so fascinating to us. I think my favorite monster is Medusa in all her terrifying aspect, and especially the way Ray Harryhausen portrayed her. And the idea that if someone looks at you, they can turn you to stone. And this is

One of the ideas of apotropaic, the power is a face looking out can turn back, reflect back evil spirits, frighten them away. And a dog with three heads, a watchdog, but especially one with three heads can frighten away an evil spirit. And I think the power of the minotaur against evil spirits and in the subconscious is not him, but I think it's the maze again.

This idea of the place, his big accessory, this labyrinthine space that I don't dream about him, but I do dream about not getting out of a space. And in fact, yesterday I went to the National Gallery in London. Amazing resource. Oh my gosh, so many masterpiece paintings. Please may it never burn down. But I couldn't find my way out. And I felt a bit like this is in the labyrinth.

And you know, this is a weird thing, but I know we're talking about monsters, but there doesn't even have to be a monster. Just getting out, getting home is a desperate desire that we all have, isn't it? Just getting out of the maze. So that whole idea that, Jesus, he's killed the monster, but now he's got to get home. There's no more monster, but he's still got to get home. So powerful.

And I think one of the things about monsters, I was thinking about why do we like monsters? What do monsters in myths do? And I think it's a combination of observation and imagination. And the first thing that struck me is my real passion is putting myself back into the ancient world and imagining what it would have been like to live back then.

It's called Pantheon, and it is an illustrated handbook to the Greek gods and goddesses. And as I said, it's got little just snippets about the kind of essences of the Greek gods and goddesses and the heroes and some monsters, just enough that you can leaf through and think, oh, that's an interesting little rabbit hole.

I'd like to investigate that a bit more because the myths are so complex and so nuanced and so variegated. that you could study one aspect of them almost for your whole life. And that's one thing I love about the whole discipline of classics is that it could never be exhausted.

And I mean, I've gone down rabbit holes with things like the aegis, the kind of poncho with Medusa's face on it that Athena wears, or the thyrsus, this kind of weird rod that Dionysus' followers wear. hold and what are these all about? And just wonderful little rabbit holes you can dive down and they're so fascinating.

And if you are a writer, they're great material that you can modernize them, retell them, tell them in the past, tell them in the present, tell them in the future, fantasy, sci-fi, you never run out of ideas with the Greek myths.

Thank you for having me on one of my favourite podcasts. I'm honoured.

And one of the first things is deformity in animals or in people, which is a kind of horrible thing, isn't it? I'll never forget once in San Francisco, when I was quite young, a teenager, I saw a two-headed snake. And it was alive. It was moving around. And it was just repulsive. It was so... deeply horrible that I'll never forget that.

And I think, you know, we have stories of two headed calves or, or animals with more than one limb. And I think they must've observed these things. And I think that's one of the things that they might've thought this is a monster. Another one is hybrids where you match like a donkey, and a horse and you get a mule. So you can combine animals.

And then we'll skip over this one very quickly, but bestiality, you know, what if a shepherd's in his field and he needs to relieve himself in a certain way, and he goes over to a nice cow or a nice sheep or something? What if he wonders what would come if that sheep gave birth? What would come out? Kind of creepy one, but it might've been something they thought about.

And then you get these images coming from other cultures, from the Near East or Egypt, of kind of half-human, half-animal creatures. And they might have thought, what is this? And they might want to explain it. And then one of the things we often forget about is that these monsters had a job, which was to keep away evil. They often frightened away evil spirits and demons.

The word is apotropaic in Greek, which means turns away evil. And we often forget that they lived in a world full of invisible, not just gods, but demons and little spirits and things. But I think of all those things, the most powerful thing is the psychological aspect of the monsters. And if you think about it, we humans, we are part animal and we're part divine. I mean, we're part super animals.

You know, we think, we tell stories, we dress, we have different cultic practices. And it's that tension that causes us so much anguish in life too. We're always struggling with our animal desires. And I think that's why monsters and be so deeply powerful and scary and frightening.

And I think also there's this current fashion of rehabilitating monsters, you know, making them sympathetic, which I'm all for. You know, Natalie Haynes does it in Stone Blind about Medusa. And then I think, I'm not sure if you'd call Cersei a monster, but Madeline Miller rehabilitates her and tells her side. But... Monsters, and of course, Charlie Cavell does it in the new Netflix series.

He makes the Minotaur, gives them a sympathetic story. But monsters are scary, they're terrifying, and that's what their power is.

Well, what was the Minotaur? Well, he was half bull, half man. And he has a really interesting origin. Before I talk about his origin, though, in my book, I have a little box. I have some little info boxes. And as I was researching all this information, I read a book about the importance of cattle in ancient times. And I call this box the cattle connection.

And, you know, ancient Greeks, in fact, even Stone Age and Bronze Age cultures, cattle, sheep, goats, cows were incredibly important. Because if you owned a cow, cattle, even a single cow, you were rich. And what do you use cows for? Well, they provide food. They provide transportation. They can plow your land so you have crops.

Then when they die, you've got leather for clothing and shoes and textiles and tents. And another thing that struck me is... Most people in the Bronze Age or the Stone Age wouldn't have seen a lion or a bear, but a bull would have been probably the most terrifying and powerful animal they would come into close contact with.

And if you can just imagine, I don't know if you've ever been near a bull, but they can be terrifying.

They're powerful and they have the majestic aspect too because the horns, horns are a deep symbol of power. And so you've got, they are often associated with kings and things. And in fact, once you start looking for cattle in the Greek myths, you see them everywhere.

For example, the first thing baby Hermes does as soon as he's born is to, well, after he kills the tortoise and makes it into a lyre, is he steals the cattle of Apollo. Yes.

He's one day old. Oh, it's so cute. I love that story. But then you just think about Apollo, this golden god who plays, well, he's going to play the lyre. He's like a cowherd and baby Hermes is a little cattle rustler. And then you've got Hera, the queen of the gods, who's often called ox-eyed or cow-eyed. Apparently it's a compliment.

And then Zeus, Poseidon, and Dionysus are all deeply associated with bulls. Two of the labors of Hercules have to do with bulls. Odysseus gets into trouble when his men steal the sacred cattle. And then Cadmus from Phoenicia, he follows a cow who leads him to Boeotia, which means cowland in Greek.

And there he found Thebes, which is going to be the great tragic city of Pentheus, Oedipus, Antigone, etc. And we're going to come to cows in a minute when I do the origin story of the Minotaur.

Yes, absolutely. And I think, again, that that connection with cows and bulls, it's not just Crete, it's not just mainland Greece. You get it in Phoenicia, you get it in Egypt, you get it, we see images of Baal, the Canaanite god, with a bull head and a man's body. So there, again, the cow is so deeply important to all these cultures, and they have different ways of kind of expressing that.

A good question. We have a first mention of him in a poet called Callimachus, who's of the 3rd century BC. He just has a little line. He talks about Theseus escaping from the cruel, bellowing of the wild son of Pacify and the twisted dwelling place of the crooked labyrinth. So right there, although it doesn't call him Minotaur in that third century BC bit of poetry, you've got all the elements.

You've got thesis, you've got the mother, and you've got the maze. Then we first see it written down on vases, and there's a famous skiphos, which is a kind of deep bowl with two little horizontal handles at the top. called the Reetskifas, and that's from, appropriately enough, Boeotia, cow land. And it shows Theseus stepping forward to stab the Minotaur.

And in that one, the Minotaur looks a bit like, his head looks almost like a unicorn. It could be a horse with one horn. But then, in a vase of about 400, we call it, someone's written Minoio Tauros, which means the Bull of Minos. So that's the kind of first time it's written down, but...