Bret Weinstein
Appearances
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
I'm a huge fan of the idea of steel manning your opponent's argument, but I have a requirement. I think steel manning is only appropriate when your opponent is making an argument in good faith. And it is absolutely clear to me that Peter Hotez and Paul Offit are making arguments in bad faith.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
I don't think it is possible to make a credible good faith argument for injecting an mRNA COVID shot into a healthy child. I don't think it's possible. If I could come up with something, I would do it just for the exercise.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
But I really think it is outside the scope of of the process of steel manning in order to understand, because deep down they know that these shots are going to kill and injure children who would otherwise tolerate covid just fine. And, you know, that's on them.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
Well, people need to understand that there is a strange nuance in the law. Any shot that is on the childhood vaccine schedule carries full legal liability protection, even in the form injected into adults. So these companies have an incentive to put this on the childhood vaccine schedule, even if there is no medical or epidemiological justification for doing so.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
By doing so, their adult vaccines escape lawsuits. Now, in the case of the COVID vaccines, I believe there is a double immunity that they are protecting. But it is hard to nail down the details because they've played a shell game with us. What they did was they sought EUA, that is emergency use authorization, for the initial shots in the early parts of COVID.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
And that EUA carried liability protection of its own. Then they got approval from the FDA in a more normal version of the process. and that should have removed the liability protection that came from the EUA version of the shot, but they have continued to inject the pre-licensure version of the shot, the EUA version.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
So I think the answer is that ironically, it's difficult to figure out whether the removal of the COVID shots from the childhood vaccine schedule, which is an obvious thing to do if you're interested in improving the health of Americans, whether or not that would return the ability to sue these companies for harms or not.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
My guess is they're leaving it legally ambiguous because they intend to use that backup argument if they are ever called onto the carpet for the injuries that they have caused.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
Well, I have two responses. One is that the word conspiracy has become fraught. But in business, there are secrets and strategies. And that happens both when a product is brought to market that's on the up and up and good for people and when the product is diabolical and there has to be a way to keep the cost of the liability manageable. So the fact that people in business are strategizing
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
in an effort to make their business profitable, shouldn't surprise anyone. What should shock us is that in this case, keeping these vaccines on the childhood schedule in order to maintain liability protection implies a willingness to maim and kill children. Children are by definition innocent. They are also by definition not capable of informed consent. So to do this is diabolical.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
I mean, I don't know. I think this has opened our eyes to what's been going on behind the scenes. If we've been paying attention, my sense is probably not. I think the country of 50 years ago was a much more sober and reasonable place. But whatever's going on, I think we need to get to the bottom of it. This has to not be allowed to happen again. And I would also point out that
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
Much effort has been spent to get people to assume that the problem with the mRNA COVID shots was the choice of the spike protein. This is not true. The reality is that the platform itself causes arbitrary damage around the body, which is why the list of symptoms for the vaccine injured is so large and hard to define.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
This is capable of destroying tissue in any organ in your body, including your heart, including your nervous system. It's capable of causing cancers. It's capable of causing neurological dysfunction. It's capable of causing cancer. dysregulation of immunity. And all of those things are extremely destructive of the quality of life. And in many cases, they can end it.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
So we have to be aware that while we are worried about the COVID shots on the childhood vaccine schedule, the industry is interested in reformulating every shot in their arsenal on the mRNA platform. And we must not allow that to happen.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
Yes, unfortunately, it has. And I've learned a ton about the fact that what I understand the mechanism of vaccines to be is sound scientifically. But the formulations, the other ingredients in them, things like adjuvants are extremely dangerous.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
And if I could just say before we end the segment, I'm here in Austin for the premiere of a marvelous documentary about the vaccine injured from the COVID campaign. It's called Follow the Silenced. And you can watch the premiere of it tonight at 7 p.m. Eastern at followthesilenced.com.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
I think it will give people a real sense for how much harm was done and how much we are compounding that harm by gaslighting the vaccine injured.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
It's time for this to stop, and it's time for President Trump to realize the existence of these shots on the childhood schedule is not his responsibility, but he's going to inherit responsibility for harm to children who are injected from this point forward if he doesn't get them pulled.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
Well, thanks for having me, Charlie. It's great to see you and I appreciate what you said about my conversation with Tucker. Let me just emphasize to your audience that the divide that has existed between scientific materialists, for lack of a better term, and people of faith has been extremely destructive.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
Sure. Well, I was going to have Steve Kirsch on my show. He's a technologist, the inventor of the optical mouse. And he had discovered some very shocking patterns with respect to the harms of these mRNA COVID shots early on. But I was concerned that as a technologist, he wasn't in a great position to address these things. And he suggested that Robert Malone, his friend, come on.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
And I'd never heard of Robert Malone before. I think almost nobody had. And he told me that Robert Malone was, in fact, the inventor of the mRNA technology at the heart of the shots, which I found hard to believe. But I checked into it and the story was absolutely correct. To make a long story short, Robert and Steve came on my podcast.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
We did it live on YouTube and it resulted in YouTube threatening the channel. They pulled down the video, they demonetized the channel and they threatened to remove us completely. which we were able to stave off when I went on Joe Rogan's program. And I think that caused YouTube substantial embarrassment. But nonetheless, on the show that Steve and Robert and I did together,
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
it became very clear to me that Robert Malone is exactly what he says and that his understanding of the danger of these shots is profound.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
For him to show up as a adversary of the technology that he invented because it's not safe enough to be injected into humans or indeed into other living creatures is remarkable and it has completely changed the status of the dissident movement with respect to COVID.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
Now, Charlie, you mentioned the vaccine injured, and I will say that as much as the biological details of the harm done to the body is fascinating to me, I am shocked by the tragedy of the vaccine injured and what we have done to them. Anybody who thought they were doing their part by getting this shot...
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
and then found themselves injured deserves our compassion and our help, and it doesn't matter how many of them there are. Now, I'm in Austin for the premiere of a documentary called Follow the Silenced. You can watch that premiere tonight at followthesilenced.com at 7 p.m. Eastern. It will be followed by a panel discussion hosted by me where I will talk to some of the vaccine injured.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
And I think once people realize what these people have been put through, they will finally understand what's been going on with respect to hiding the damage of these shots.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
And a lot of the responsibility for that falls on the head of strident atheists who have completely failed to understand the importance of religious faith in the story of human evolution. So while I know that we disagree on a few fundamental matters, we don't disagree on the importance of those questions to human well-being.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
Well, let me address the multiple things that you raise. Informed consent is the central principle of modern medicine. We literally, after World War II, hanged seven doctors for violating the informed consent of their patients, even though it had not been codified, which it now has in the Nuremberg Code. informed consent could not possibly have been reached in the case of the COVID vaccines.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
No one on earth knew what they were going to do long term. And as the evidence for harm accumulated, it was buried by the powers that be so that no patient was informed. Even if they consented, they were not in a position to do it from a position of knowledge. So It was a serious breach of general hanging offense.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
And then to compound this, I could go on for hours about the fate of the vaccine injured, but just understanding that when the vaccine injured finally came to understand that they weren't individual cases, that there were in fact tens of thousands of people suffering from the same system disease. from the same symptoms.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
When they gathered on Facebook, the government strong-armed Facebook into removing the discussion groups in which they were learning to help themselves out. Can you imagine that you would take people who were having some terrifying experience in the aftermath of a shot and you would prevent them from talking to each other in order to protect your position in the market?
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
I can't really even find the words... describe how horrifying that is now you asked about dna contamination dna contamination is largely something we are aware of because of the work of kevin mccarnan who has discovered that although The shots were licensed based on one technology for their production, a very expensive technology.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
The manner of production was changed in the aftermath of them being licensed for distribution. And that new technology is cheaper and involves the use of DNA plasmids. These DNA plasmids are not being removed from the shots that are ultimately injected into people.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
And so while the label on the shot says it's mRNA, they actually contain DNA, including something called the SV40 promoter, which is actually a known carcinogen. This is a promoter from a monkey virus that is getting into people's bodies, and it is fully capable of changing DNA in their cellular genomes.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
Now, I know that all sounds very complicated, but the thing to understand here is that as bad as it is to inject these things into adults, when you inject something into a child that can modify the genome in their cells, it has a much greater effect because those cells go on to produce cells a large number of daughter cells as the child grows.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
So we're seeing the harms in adults, but the harms in children ought to be much greater. And the bait and switch that they played with their process one and process two shots create even more jeopardy for children. The younger, the worse the jeopardy.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
100%. There is no way to make a shot on the mRNA platform that is not going to do damage across the body. And the reason is because the shots don't stay where you inject them. And that once they escape the injection site, what they do is they invade whatever cells they encounter.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
They trigger those cells to produce a foreign protein, which causes your own immune system to target those tissues and destroy them. There are places in your body where you can tolerate that, and there are other places in your body where you can't. So you're rolling the dice every time you get one of these shots, and it has nothing to do with it being for COVID.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
So the fact that there is this momentum is really about the fact that the industry knows how much money can be made by reformulating shots on the mRNA platform. It's not about human well-being, and it will cause exactly the opposite.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
I would invite people to look at Robert Malone's most recent post on his Substack, where he describes the industry trade group that is responsible for managing the image of mRNA technology. These people know what they're doing.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
They understand how much money they stand to make by doing it, and they are in some sense gaslighting the whole of civilization and the federal government in order to get it done. It's deeply immoral, and we should spare no effort to prevent them from succeeding.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
brett let's just kind of get through the facts here it's still on the childhood vaccination schedule what is the significance of that let's start there well there is a tremendous significance at multiple different levels and i will say i'm sure we will talk later in the hour about president trump and his relationship to these vaccines and what i think it implies for his second term
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
It's shocking how few indications there have been. I've heard calls for us to let bygones be bygones and gone. And I seen a lot of scrambling by people in the middle ground, people who want to scold the dissidents and scold the system and thereby ascend to positions of power. But I must tell you, if you want this not to happen again,
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
you actually have to confront what it is that the dissidents discovered the dissidents have to be understood to have been right in order to see how dangerous it was to allow the system to silence them during the pandemic and frankly many of the things that we now agree to things like the fact that this disease appears to have emerged from a laboratory
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
Those things are only known to the public because of the work of the dissidents. Likewise, the damage done by the mRNA shots, the only reason the public has any idea about this is because we overcame the system's intent to keep us absolutely out of view. So if you don't want this to happen again, you have to take the people who were right and you have to put them in the positions of power.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
And we've got a pretty good start on that. People like Jay Bhattacharya and Bobby Kennedy being in Washington is a hugely important development. And believe me, industry understands how dangerous it is to their racket. And they are acting both in public and in private to prevent it.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
I would point directly to Senator Cassidy, who I don't know if you've seen this clip of him describing the concessions that he was able to get from Kennedy in order for Kennedy to be confirmed. But if you want to know why things are moving slowly with respect to fixing the situation with the mRNA shots, I would look at Senator Kennedy and I would
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
understand that he is a very powerful man who is- You mean Cassidy or Kennedy?
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
I absolutely mean Cassidy. I'm sorry, but he's up for reelection in- That's correct. 2026 and he should be removed from office.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
But the fact of the mRNA vaccines being on the childhood schedule is not his responsibility. And his ability to right this great wrong is a tremendous opportunity for him. I hope he will recognize that. The first thing to say, though, is that there was never any justification for injecting kids with these mRNA shots.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
Excellent question. I will say I am very careful to keep a list of things that I got wrong during COVID. There were quite a number of them. I think I was far too credulous at the beginning. I believed what I was being told. I thought masks stood a good chance of being useful at the point that they proved not to be useful. I changed my position on that.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
I thought there was an argument to be made for brief, intense lockdowns. I no longer believe that that's the case. And I when I heard about the vaccines that were being or the so-called vaccines that were being brought into, I don't even want to say the market that were going to be used to control the so-called pandemic. I knew immediately that a new technology couldn't possibly be safe.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
I knew that the argument that they were safe was a lie, but I did not understand quickly enough that the idea that they were effective at controlling the spread of this disease was also a lie. That took me a while to realize. I could go on. There are lots of places.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
And I would just say, I think if people are expecting those in the public, whether they are professionals or not, to be right from the beginning, they've just simply understood the process incorrectly. The important thing is that you take your best guess at first based on the evidence that you have and you allow your position to be upgraded by evidence as it emerges.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
And I trust anybody who does that in good faith. And I distrust anybody who fails to do it. We're not looking for people to spot everything at the outset. We're looking for people who know how to improve the quality of their models over time.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
Well, I'm extremely hopeful that with the team in Washington. that we can finally bring the full story of what happened during COVID into the light. I believe it is the best chance that we will have in our lifetime to understand what's gone wrong with our society and to fix it.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
I'm a little concerned that the president's understandable pride over Operation Warp Speed is getting in the way of the recognition of the horror of the shots that were brought to the public
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
uh under that banner but i think the president is going to come to understand that first of all he should begin to correct this error with the childhood vaccine schedule which is not his responsibility he did not oversee the placement of those shots on the childhood vaccine schedule and so And he doesn't want to inherit the harm done to children, new harm that hasn't been done yet.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
He doesn't want that to be his responsibility. So hopefully he will understand since there's no medical or epidemiological argument for injecting children with mRNA based COVID shots. That those shots should be pulled immediately. And then having done that, he's in an excellent position.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
Any day of the week that he wants to, he can call Bobby Kennedy into his office and he can say, can you explain to me what is going on with the mRNA vaccine platform? And Bobby Kennedy is as well versed in this topic as anyone on earth. He is in a position to explain it in very clear terms. I've learned things from him that I didn't know.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
So it's wonderful that President Trump has that resource at his disposal, and I hope he will avail himself of it.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
healthy young people tolerated covid very easily from the beginning so there was no argument that we were protecting them by doing so the only argument you could make that might have justified it was the idea that there were unhealthy old people who were vulnerable and that somehow vaccinating the young would protect them.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
Come check us out on Dark Horse on whatever platform you use to listen to podcasts. And you can subscribe to my ex account at Brett Weinstein. Brett has one T. And anyway, let's let's get these things off the childhood schedule. It's it's unbearable that we would do everything I possibly can.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
We now know better than that because we know the shots don't block transmission. But even if we thought that they were going to block transmission, there has never been a moral society that has decided to risk the health of young people to protect the old. It's supposed to be exactly the inverse.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
It is fair and obscene that we ever contemplated this, that the old should always be willing to die to protect the young. That's how it is. That's the basis of a moral society. And the idea that without comment, we inverted that is an indicator of just how sick our society has become.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
yes it has been fended off by people who have a lot of explaining to do and who have never apologized for the damage that they did to to children and to the whole of society i think it is urgent that we have that discussion whatever the answer may be whether it vindicates them or causes us to understand the full depths of what they did we have to know so that we don't repeat those errors
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
And I don't think we ever had an open conversation about any of the moral inversions that took place in the COVID era. This was done with the tools of a witch hunt that simply demonized anybody who departed from this manufactured consensus. And, you know, the truth is that pressure has never fully lifted. I will tell you that my channel, Dark Horse...
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
is still fully demonetized and apparently capped in its growth by YouTube. They've never explained themselves and they've just simply left that in place. And more to the point, the vaccine injured are still being gaslit about their profound injuries. These are people who deserve every bit of help that we can give them. And it doesn't matter whether They were vanishingly rare or extremely common.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
Whether there were five or 500,000 of them, we owe people who were injured by these shots every attempt to make them healthy. And instead, we are pretending that their injuries are in their head, and it's simply ghastly. So let us return to a...
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
deliberate moral society in which we talk about our differences and we investigate what we've done and what we thought it was going to accomplish and what it actually accomplished, because that's the only way we're going to move forward as a society.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
I don't know, but the fact that they're being recommended by the CDC for children above six months of age suggests that the number is going to be
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
surprisingly substantial because put yourself in the mindset of a young parent, maybe even a first time parent who's being told by a doctor that in order to do right by your child's lifetime health, you have to give them a series of vaccinations, that these things are safe and effective. They've been thoroughly tested.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
If you don't give them to your child, your child is going to be at risk and it's going to be your fault. Most parents don't have the wherewithal to ask the doctor the kinds of questions that that doctor needs to be asked, even if they knew what those questions are, which most of them don't.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
So I would imagine that although in the general population, the number of people receiving these shots has dropped down to the low double digits. With respect to children, newborns, the number is bound to be substantial because, you know, nobody wants to go up against the CDC's recommendation.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
That's a very important question. And I will say that those doctors who are recommending it to new parents are engaged in what I believe is beyond criminal negligence. It's depraved indifference because we now know that there is substantial damage that comes from these shots. They're also not confessing the incentives that they are given for giving these shots to their patients.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
Effectively, doctors are working on commission and most patients have no idea. But in the case of the COVID shots, we know now that they do damage to the immune system in two ways. They cause immune dysregulation. So a system that is built to be able to fend off any disease that you should encounter in life is becoming less capable because it's confused.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
But more to the point, we know that anyone who gets two or more of these shots starts to produce something called IgG4. Now, IgG4 is a special class of antibody that the immune system produces when it needs to turn itself down. And so what has long been known is that, in fact, these COVID shots make you more likely to catch COVID.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
One of the reasons is likely to be the production of this special IgG4 antibody, which triggers the immune system to downregulate. So as soon as we knew that that was a consequence, nobody should have received any more of these shots because we have no idea in the long run what their impact is going to be. And the expectation is it should be negative.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
Yes, and I believe they are stuck in a difficult position because of the political realities of the jobs they now hold. But yes, I believe these results are sufficiently straightforward and their implications sufficiently stark that we would be in agreement.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
I would agree, and I would go even further. I feel a lot of compassion for President Trump. He did do something remarkable in his response to the emergency that we at least believed we had at that point. It wasn't his failure. He's not a biologist. He's not a doctor. He's not a vaccinologist. He can hardly be expected to understand the hazards that were lurking inside of this platform.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
But it wasn't just the companies that lied to him. It was actually his deputies, federal employees, including the most highly paid federal employee of all. Dr. Fauci lied to him about the situation that we were in and about the safety and efficacy of these mRNA shots.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
If I were him, I would be proud of the accomplishment of getting them to market so quickly and I would be livid with the people who conned him.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Four Years Later, What We Know About mRNA Shots ft. Bret Weinstein
I would also be very interested in getting to the bottom of how that happened.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
I applaud your optimism, and I like the way you think about these puzzles, but I think I see you making a mistake that we are about to discover is very commonplace. So we have several different categories of systems. We have simple systems. We have complicated systems. We have complex systems. And then we have complex adaptive systems. Mm-hmm.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
To most of us, a highly complicated system appears like a complex system. We don't understand the distinction. Technologists often master highly complicated systems and they know, you know, for example, a computer. It's a perfectly predictable system inside. It's deterministic. But to most of us, it functions, it is mysterious enough that it feels like a complex system.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
And if you're in the position of having mastered highly complicated systems and you look at complex systems and you think it's a natural extension, you fail to anticipate just how unpredictable they are. So even if it is true that today there are limits to what these machines can do based on their training data, I think the problem is you
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
To see what's going to happen, you really want to start thinking of this as the evolution of a new species that will continue to evolve. It will partially be shaped by what we ask it to do, the direction we lead it. And it will partially be shaped by things we don't understand. So... How does this computer that we have work? Well, one of the things that it does is we plug them into each other.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
Using language, it's almost as if you've plugged an Ethernet cable in between human minds. And that means that the cognitive potential exceeds the sum of the individual minds in question.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
Your AIs are going to do that. And that means that our ability to say what they are capable of does not come down to, well, we didn't train it on that data. As they begin to interact, that feedback is going to take them to capabilities we don't anticipate and may not even recognize once they become present. That's one of my fears. This is an evolving creature and... It's not even an animal.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
If it were an animal, you could say something about what the limits of that capability are. But this is a new type of biological creature, and it will become capable of things that we don't even have names for.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
Well, but I hear in what both of you are saying a kind of assumption that this will all be done on the up and up. And I do want to Just, I am not a doomer. I agree that the doomers are likely incorrect, that their fears are misplaced. But I do think we have a question of a related rates problem. You know, I said the potential for good here is infinite, and the potential for bad is 10 times, right?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
What I mean is... There are lots of ways in which this obviously empowers people to do things that they were going to be otherwise stuck in the mundane process of learning to code and then figuring out how to make the code work and bring it to market and all of that. And this solves a lot of those problems. And that's obviously a good thing.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
Really, what we should want is the wealth creation object as quickly as we can get there. But the problem is, you know, as much as it – that hyper-creative individual is empowered to make wealth, the person who is interested in stealing may be even more empowered. And I'm concerned about that at a pretty high level.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
The abuse cases may outnumber the use cases, and we don't have a plan for what to do about that.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
I don't know how much abuse we've seen so far. I don't know how any of us do. And I also – even the example that you suggest where chat GPT is no longer open source to prevent abuse. I'm taking their word for it that that's the motivation where as a systems theorist, I would say, well –
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
If you had a technology that was excellent at enhancing your capacity to wield power, then open sourcing it is a failure to capitalize on that and that the most remunerative use is to keep it private and then either sell the ability to manipulate elections to people who want to do so or sell the ability to have it kept off the table for people who don't.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
And I would expect that that's probably what's going on. There's no – if you have a technology as transformative as this, giving it away for free is counterintuitive, which leaves those of us in the public more or less at the mercy of the people who have it. So I don't see the reason for comfort. We are at the dawn of this radical transformation of technology.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
humans that by its very nature as a truly complex and emergent innovation, nobody on earth can predict what's going to happen. We can, we're on the event horizon of something. And the problem is, you know, we can talk about the obvious disruptions, the job disruption, and that's going to be massive. And does that lead to
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
some group of elites to decide, oh, well, suddenly we have a lot of useless eaters and what are we going to do about that? Because that conversation tends to lead somewhere very dark very quickly. But I think that's just the beginning of the various ways in which this could go wrong without the Doomer scenarios coming into play.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
This is an uncontrolled experiment in which all of humanity is downstream.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
So I don't really understand this. And maybe this is actually, this is the exact discussion that you would expect between somebody at the frontier of the highly complicated staring at a complex system and a biologist who comes from the land of the complex and is looking back at highly complicated systems. In game theory, we have something called a collective action problem.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
And in the market that you're describing, an individual company has no capacity to hold back the abuses of AI. The most you can do is not participate in them. You can't stop other people from programming LLMs in some dangerous way. And you can limit your own ability to earn based on your own limitations of what you're willing to do.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
And then effectively what happens is the technology gets invented anyway. It's just that the dollars end up in somebody else's pocket. So the incentive is not to restrain yourself so that you can at least compete and participate in the market that's going to be opened. And so the number of ways in which you can abuse this technology, let's take a couple.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
what is to stop somebody from training llms on an individual's creative output and then creating an llm that can out-compete that individual can effectively not only produce what they would naturally produce over the course of a lifetime but can extrapolate from it and can even hybridize it with the insights of other people so that effectively
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
Those who have the LLM can train it on the creativity of others, not cut them in on the use of that insight. You can effectively end up putting yourself out of business by putting your creative ideas in the world where they get sucked up as training data for future LLMs. That is unscrupulous, but it's effectively guaranteed. In fact, it's already happened. So that's a problem.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
And likewise, what would stop somebody... From interacting with an individual and training an LLM to become like a personalized con artist, something that would play exactly to your blind spots.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
There would be every reason to have exactly the same perspective, right? I remember the beginning of Facebook and I remember the idea that suddenly the process that used to afflict people where you would just lose touch with most of the people who had been important to you, that was not something that needed to happen anymore.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
You could just retain them permanently as a part of a diffuse social grouping that just simply grew and value was added. There's no end to how much good that did. But... What it did to us was profound and not evident in the first chapter.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
Say the same thing about the cell phones and the dopamine traps and the way this has disconnected us from each other, the way it has disconnected us from nature, the way it has altered the very patterns with which we think it has altered nature. every classroom. And those things, I think, are going to turn out to have been sort of minor foreshadowings of the disruption that AI will produce.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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So I agree with you. Today, the amount you can do with AI is a tremendous amount of good. There's a little bit of harm. Maybe that's something we need to worry about. But As this develops, as we get to, you know, to peer over the edge of this cliff that we're headed to, I think we're going to discover that we can't yet detect the nature of the alteration that's coming.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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I don't know why you say more likely. I mean, I think the structure of your argument is sound. You would prepare for the world that might happen for which you can prepare. There's literally no point in trying to prepare for a world you can't predict at all. The only thing you can do is just sort of upgrade your own skills and…
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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But if I have one message for the technologists, it's that your confidence about what this can and cannot do is misplaced because you have, without noticing, stepped into the realm of the truly complex. Mm-hmm. your confidence should drop to near zero that you know what's going on. Are these things conscious? I don't know. But will they be?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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Highly likely they will become conscious and that we will not have a test to tell us whether that has happened.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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Let me put it to you this way. We've created a new species and nobody on Earth can predict what's going to happen.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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Intelligence. That's exactly the thing, is that what makes human beings special is our cognitive capacity and very specifically our ability to plug our minds into each other so that the sum is – or the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. That's what makes human cognition special. And what we are doing is we are creating a –
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
Something that can technologically surpass it without any of the preconditions that make that a safe process. So yes, we've revolutionized the world how many different times? It's innumerable. But we've made farming vastly more efficient. That's different than taking our core competency as a species and surpassing ourselves with the product of our labor. I think your question is a good one.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
Then what does become of it?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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Yes. And, you know, again, I don't know how to make this point so that it occurs to people what I'm really suggesting, but today, maybe it's not conscious. But, well, let me put it to you this way. If you're conscious, you started out as a child that wasn't. And although this may not fully encapsulate it, you are effectively an LLM, right?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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You go from an unconscious infant to a highly conscious adult. And the process by which you do that has a lot to do with being trained effectively on words and other things in an environment in exactly the way that we now train these AIs.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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So the idea that we can take consciousness off the table, it won't be there till we figure out how to program it in and we're safe because we don't know how consciousness works. I take the opposite lesson. We've created the exact thing that will produce that phenomenon. And then we can have philosophers debate whether it's real consciousness or it just behaves exactly as if it were.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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And the answer is those aren't different. And the same thing is true for agency. Especially if you've created an environment in which these AIs are de facto competitors. What you're effectively doing is creating an evolutionary environment in which they will evolve to fill whatever niches are there. And we didn't spell out the niches.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
So I have the sense we have invited – we have created something that truly is going to function like a new kind of life. And it's especially troubling because it speaks our language. So that leads us to believe it's more like us than it is. And it's actually potentially quite different. By the way, he's the optimist here.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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I mean, unfortunately, even if there is some small group of elites that are able to go to Hawaii while something else does the mundane details of their business building, we are rather soon going to be faced with a world that has billions of people who do not have the skills to leverage AI.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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some of them will be necessary for a time you're going to need plumbers but this is also not a long-term solution because not only are there not enough of those jobs but of course we have humanoid robots that once imbued with ai capacity will also be able to take you know they'll be able to crawl under your house into the crawl space and fix your plumbing so
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
What typically happens when you have a massive economic contraction that arises from the fact that a huge number of people are out of work is that the elites start looking at those people and thinking, well, we don't really need them anyway. And so the idea that this AI disruption doesn't lead us to some very human catastrophe, I think, is overly optimistic.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
And that we need to start preparing right now. What are the rights of a person who has had whatever it is that they've invested in completely erased from the list of needs? Is that person responsible for not having anticipated AI coming? And is it their problem that they are now starving and they're being eyed by others as, you know, a useless eater? I don't think so.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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I would say scale and speed. That's how it's different. And the scale and speed is going to result in an unprecedented catastrophe because the rate at which people are going to be simultaneously sidelined, not just in one industry, but across every industry, is just simply...
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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You have somebody who has an idea that can be brought to market, and somebody else is cryptically detecting it and then selling back their own idea to them.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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Right, but this is what I more or less think is going to happen across the whole economy, is that, yes, from this perspective, we can see that everybody is suddenly empowered to build a great business. Well, what do we think about...
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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the folks who are going to be displaced from the top what are they going to think about all these people building all of these highly competitive businesses and are they going to find a way to do you know what venture capital has done or what record producers have done what they're going to do is they're going to take their superior position at the top and they are going to take most of the wealth that is produced by all of these people who have these ideas that in a proper market would actually create businesses for them and they're going to parasitize them i think that
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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Oh, I agree that authenticity is going to become the coin of the realm. And anything that can be faked or cheated is going to be devalued and things, you know,
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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spontaneous jazz or you know comedy that is interactive enough that it couldn't possibly have been generated with the aid of ai those things are going to become prioritized you know spontaneous oratory rather that's great speeches answer some of your questions it answers it answers my question for the tiny number of people who are in a position to do those things.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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But the problem is you reference self-correction. And I agree that there's actually an automatic feature of the universe in which the self-correction happens. You can't have a positive feedback that isn't reined in by some outer negative feedback. Right.
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But the corrections, the list of corrections involves things like you point to where people become enlightened and they realize that they're doing themselves harm with either the sugar that they're consuming or the dopamine traps on their phone and they get better. But also on the list of corrective patterns are genocide and war and violence. you know, parasitism.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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And the problem is these things are destructive of wealth. And so you allude to the superior fact of an open market without moats. Presumably the benefit of that is that more wealth gets created because people aren't kept from doing things that are productive. I see that. But then what is the product of all of this new wealth that is going to be generated by a world empowered by AI?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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Does it end up so highly concentrated that you have a tiny number of ultra elites and a huge number of people who are utterly dependent on them? What becomes of those people? The learning process, the self-correction process goes through harm in order to get to that more enlightened solution. There's nothing that protects us from…
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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And the harm phase being so apocalyptically terrible that, you know, we get to the other side of it and we say, well, that was a hell of a correction. Or maybe there's nobody there to even say that. Those are also on the table.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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You know, if the elites are too greedy and they freeze out the peasants at too high a level and they try to use brutality. Pitchforks. Yeah, eventually it comes back to haunt them. And so what you get is a recognition that you need a system that does balance these things. And the West has the best system that we've ever seen. It's one in which we agree on a level playing field.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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We never achieve it, but we agree that it's a desirable thing. And the closer we get to it, the more wealth we create. But again, if AI empowers those with ill intent at a higher rate that it empowers those who are wealth-creating and pro-social, we may be in for a massive regression in how fair the market that the West is.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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I think they're the same thing. How are they the same thing? Because the economic displacement is going to start. I don't know how many million people are going to be displaced from their jobs in the U.S. Suddenly we're going to have a question about whether or not we have obligations to them.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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Well, I mean, but I hear you. But you're talking about people who have done vital work, highly specialized work, and are therefore not in a great position to pivot based on the invention of a technology that they didn't see coming because, frankly, I mean, in the abstract, maybe we all saw AI coming somewhere down the road, but we did not know that it was going to suddenly dawn. And
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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We do have to figure out what to do with those people. It's not their fault that they've suddenly become obsolete. And it's inconceivable that people will accept this. It is fundamentally incompatible with our nature. We have to have things to strive for. And you can sustain life that way, but you cannot sustain a meaningful existence. And so it's a short-term plan at best.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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I mean, there already is. And it doesn't require AI and it's going to get worse. I don't know what to do about it because... Essentially, as human beings, we are built, like all organisms, to find opportunity and figure out how to exploit it. That's what we do. And the world you're describing is really the opposite of that.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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It's one where you're effectively having your biological needs at the physiological level satisfied, and there isn't an obvious... place for your spare time, if that's what you end up with, to be utilized in something that, you know, there's no place to strive. And I do imagine almost at best what would happen is you have people who are
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
being sustained by a universal basic income and then parasitized, you know, whatever currency they have to spend, somebody will be targeting it and they will be targeting it with an AI augmented system that spots their defects of character. I mean, again, we're already living in this world.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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But it will be that much worse when the AI is figuring out what kind of porn to target you with specifically. It's a nightmare scenario. And I do think it would be worth our time as a species to start considering if we are about to find ourselves in this situation and we find some way of dealing with the basic needs of the large number of people who are going to be sidelined.
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What would a world have to look like in order for them to have real meaning, not pseudo meaning, not something that superficially a video game is not meaning, even if it feels very meaningful in the moment? I think that would be a worthy investment for us to figure out how to produce it. But frankly, I'm not expecting us to either have that conversation or get very far down that road.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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I think it's much more likely that we will squander the wealth dividend that will be produced by AI.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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Well, I wanted to go back to where you started, because I do think that this maybe is the fundamental question. Why is it that we are already living in a world that is not making us happy? And is that the responsibility of technology? And I don't think it's exactly technology.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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Human beings, among our gifts, are fundamentally technological, whether we're talking about quantum computing or flintknapping an arrowhead. What has happened to us that has created the growing, spreading, morphing dystopia is a process that Heather and I in our book, A Hunter-Gatherer's Guide to the 21st Century, call hypernovelty.
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Hyper-novelty is the fact of the rate of change outpacing our capacity to adapt to change. And we are already well past the threshold here where the world that we are young in is not the world that we are adults in. And that mismatch is making us sick across multiple different domains.
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So the question that I ask is, is the change that you're talking about going to reduce the rate of change, in which case we could build a world that would start meeting human needs better, open opportunities for pursuing meaningful work? Or is it going to accelerate the rate of change, which is, in my opinion, guaranteed to make us worse off? So if it was a one-time shift, Right.
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AI is going to dawn. It's going to open all sorts of new opportunities. There's going to be a tremendous amount of disruption. But from that, we'll be able to build a world. Is that world going to be stable or is it going to be just, you know, one event horizon after the next? If it's the latter, then it effectively says what it does to the humans, which is it's going to dismantle us.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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Wow. On the one hand, I think you outline the problem very well. Effectively, we have a model of what school is supposed to do that, you know, at best was sort of a match for the 50s or something like that. And it woefully misses the mark with respect to preparing people for the world they actually face.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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If we were going to prepare them, I would argue that the only toolkit worth having at the moment is a highly general toolkit. The capacity to think on your feet and pivot as things change is the only game in town with respect to our ability to prepare you in advance.
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Maybe the other auxiliary component to that would be teaching you what we know, which is frankly not enough, about how to live a healthy life, right? If we could... If we could induce people into the kinds of habits of behavior and consumption of food and then train them to think on their feet, they might have a chance in the world that's coming.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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But the fly in the ointment is we don't have the teachers to do it. We don't have people who know. And that is the question, is could the AI actually be utilized in this manner to actually – induce the right habits of mind for people to live in that world?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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Well, I would argue that the idea that this AI disruption doesn't lead us to human catastrophe is optimistic. For example, people are going to be unemployed in huge numbers. You agree with that, don't you?
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How do you receive all of this? Well, on the one hand, I agree that the closer to one-to-one you get, the better. But I also personally believe that zero to one is best. And what I mean by that is...
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Part of what's gone wrong with our educational system is that it is done through abstraction and effectively the arbiter of whether you have succeeded or failed in learning the lesson is the person at the front of the room. And that's okay if the person at the front of the room is truly insightful and it's terrible if the person at the front of the room is lackluster, which happens a lot.
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So what doesn't work that way is interaction with the physical world in which nobody has to tell you whether you've succeeded or failed. If you're faced with an engine that doesn't start, you can't argue it into starting. You have to figure out what the thing is that has caused it to fail, and then there's a great reward when you alter that thing and suddenly it fires up. So I'm a big fan of...
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Being as light-handed as possible and as concrete as possible in teaching. In other words, when I've done it, and not just with students, but with my own children, I like to say as little as possible, and I like to let physical systems tell the person when they've succeeded or failed. And that creates an understanding you can extrapolate from one system to the next.
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And you know that you're not just extrapolating from one person's misunderstanding. You're extrapolating from the way things actually work. So I don't know if AI can be leveraged in that context. My sense is there's probably a way to do it, but one would have to be deliberate about it. Especially with robotics and humanoid robots. Actually, that is the place where you can do this is with robotics.
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Yeah. It seems to me, yeah. Well, robotics will teach you the physical computing part of it, and then the question is how do you infuse this with AI so that it provokes you out of some eddy where you're caught and moves you into the ability to solve some next-level problem that you wouldn't have found on your own.
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Rule number one that I tell my kids is stay away from porn at all costs. I'd rather you have a drug problem than a porn problem, and I actually mean that. I think porn is more dangerous to the human being, as bad as a drug problem is.
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But when we get to the question of how to confront the world and the things that you're going to be expected to do in the workplace and all of that, my point to them is stay you are facing the dawning of the age of complex systems that you are going to have to interact with. And in the age of complex systems, you have to understand that you cannot blueprint a solution.
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And you have to approach these systems with a upgraded toolkit of humility because the ability of the system to do something you don't predict is much greater than a highly complicated system. You have to anticipate that and be very sensitive to the fact that what you intended to happen is not what's going to happen.
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So you have to monitor the unintended consequences of whatever your action is and that there are really two tools which work, one of which you just mentioned, which is the prototyping. You prototype things. You don't.
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imagine that i know the solution to this and i'm going to build it you imagine i think there's a solution down there i'm going to make a proof of concept and then i'm going to discover what i don't know and i'm going to make the next version discover what i don't know and eventually you may get to something that actually truly accomplishes the goal so prototyping is one thing and also instead of using the blueprint as the metaphor in your mind
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Navigate. You can navigate somewhere. And, you know, the way I think of it is a surfer is in some ways mastering a complex system. But they're not doing it by planning their days surfing down the waves. You can't do that. What you can do is you can be expert at absorbing feedback and navigating your way down the wave and that that's the right approach for a complex system.
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Nothing else is going to work. And so I guess... The final piece is general tools always, no specialization. This is the age of generalists and invest in those tools and they will pay.
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I think it's sad that it is inevitable, but at this point, it is.
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we have squandered a long period of productivity and peace in which we could have prepared for this moment. And our narrow focus on competition has created a A fragile world that I'm afraid is not going to survive the disruption that's coming. And it didn't have to be that way. This was foreseeable.
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Frankly, the movie 2001, which came out the year before I was born, anticipates some of these problems. And, you know, we treated it too much like education.
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i mean like entertainment and not enough like education so we are now you know we've had the ai era opened without a discussion about its implications for humanity there is now for game theoretic reasons no way to slow that pace because as you point out if we restrain ourselves we simply put the ai in the hands of our competitors that's not a solution so i don't advocate it
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But there's a lot more preparation we could have done. We could have recognized that there were a lot of people in jobs that were about to be obliterated. And we could have thought deeply about what the moral implications were and what the solutions at our disposal might have been. And having not prepared, it's going to be a lot more carnage than it needed to be.
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Well, let me just say I'm an evolutionary biologist, and probably for the purposes of this conversation, it would be best to think of me as a complex systems theorist. One of the things that I believe is true about AI is that this is the first time that we have built machines that have crossed the threshold from the highly complicated into the truly complex.
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Well, I would just say on that front, this has always been a fantasy of technologists to do marvelous things with our spare time. But we end up doomscrolling.
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And I will say I'm listening to this conversation with a mixture of profound hope and dread because it seems to me that it is obvious that the potential good that can come from this technology
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I have a few things to say about this. One, I'm pretty sure your cat's not as impressed with your capacity as you are or as you think he is. I just know cats well enough to be pretty sure of that.
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I think it's a fair point that there is an existence. And actually, you know, pets really do have it. If they have loving owners, they really do have it. pretty great. And I would also point out that there's a way in which we already are this way. Most of us do not understand the process that results in electricity coming out of the walls of our house or the water that comes out of the tap.
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And we're pretty much okay with the fact that somebody takes care of that and we can busy ourselves with whatever it might be. But the place that I find something troubling in your description is that you say that the nature of what we do is to deal with the fact that jobs are always being upended. That's a very new process. That is the hyper-novelty process.
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It used to be that it was only very rarely that a population had a circumstance where you didn't effectively do exactly what your immediate ancestors did, right? In general, you took what the jobs were, you picked something that was suited to you, and you did that thing.
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And the point is we've now gotten to the point where even within your lifetime, what is possible to get paid for is going to shift radically in ways that nobody can predict. And that is a dangerous situation.
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Right. And so maybe there's some model by which we can surf that wave and you can learn a generalist toolkit and that your survival doesn't depend on your being able to switch up every two years and never miss a beat. Or maybe we can't. But I do think it is worth asking the question.
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If the rate of technological change has taken us out of the normal human circumstance of being able to deduce what you might do for a living based on what your ancestors did and put us in a situation where what your ancestors did is going to be perfectly irrelevant no matter what, that is effectively a choice that has been made for us.
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And we could choose to slow the rate of change so that we would live in some kind of harmony where our developmental environment and our adult environment were a match. Now, as a biologist, I would argue if we don't do something like that, this is a matter of time.
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Well, you know, when Heather and I wrote our book, I wanted the first chapter to be, are the Amish right? And the answer is they can't be exactly right because they picked an arbitrary moment to step off the escalator. But are they right that there's something dangerous about this continuing pattern of technological change? Clearly they are.
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is effectively infinite but i would say that the harm is probably 10 times it's a bigger infinity and the question of how we are going to get to a place where we can leverage the obvious power that is here to do good and dodge the worst harms i have no idea i know we're not prepared so i i
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The Amish live as if it was, what, 1880? 1850 or something. So they live in a – they don't use cars. I think they do have phones, but they do not have electricity. Basically, they voluntarily accept a – they're basically a Luddite community, and they have turned out to fare surprisingly well against many of the things that have upended – Modern folks.
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Yeah, COVID, they did beautifully.
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Very low autism rates. They have all sorts of advantages. So anyway, I'm not arguing that we should live like the Amish. I don't see that. But I do think the idea that they had an insight, which was you need to step off that escalator because you're just going to keep making yourself sicker, is probably right. Now, maybe... This is a one-time shift. We've stepped over the event horizon.
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We are going to be living in the AI world. And maybe if we're careful about it, we can figure out how to turn that landscape of infinite possibility that you're describing into a place that doesn't change, that you always have the opportunity to decide what needs to be done, but that living over that event horizon is not an ever-changing process. It's just the next frontier.
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Well, this is exactly what I'm pointing to. It is not normal for your developmental environment to fail to prepare you for your adult environment. The normal thing is, as a young person, you take on ever more of the responsibilities of the adult environment. And then at some point, you know, in a properly functioning culture, there's a rite of passage. You go into the bush for 10 days.
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You come back with, you know, a large plant. you know, game animal. And now you're an adult and you take that program that you've been building and you activate it. And that is normal. And, you know, you're a lot happier person. You're a lot more fulfilled if your life has that kind of continuity to it. And, you know, I'm not against the idea that we have enabled ourselves to
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do things that can't be done if that's the the limit but we have also harmed ourselves gravely and i would like to somehow pry apart our ability to improve our well-being from our self-inflicted wounds that come from this never-ending pace of change and i don't know if it's possible but i think it's a worthy goal
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hear you talking about agents and i think that's marvelous we can all use such a thing right away and the more powerful it is the better the idea of something that can solve problems on your behalf while you're doing something else is marvelous but of course That is the precondition for absolute devastation to arise out of a miscommunication, right?
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to uh to live uh in a way that reverses i i guess in a more local way i like that vision but i also am aware that there's a different vision right you see people in palo alto for example actually exerting you know very strong controls on how much their children are exposed to uh you know to phones and i live in palo alto So you see that.
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On the other hand, what I am worried about is that the elites of Palo Alto don't realize that what they're doing is they're figuring out how to reduce the harm to their own families as they're exporting the harm to the world of these technologies that for everybody else are unregulated. And so the question is – Can we bring everybody along?
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If the AI revolution is going to alter our relationship to work and everything else, can we bring everybody along so that at the end of this process, instead of saying, well, you know, it's a shame that, you know, 3 billion people were sacrificed to this transition, but progress is progress, we can really say, well, we figured it out.
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And everybody now is living in a style that is closer to their programming and closer to the expectations of their physical bodies. You know, if that were true, then I would love to be wrong in my fears about what's coming. But unfortunately, the market is not going to solve this problem without our being deliberate about forcing it to.
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It's a whole different topic, actually. My fear stemming from technology and AI is that this is a runaway process and that that runaway process is going to interface very badly with some latent human programs that, in effect – The need for workers largely disappears.
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loneliness epidemic right following birth rates so the potential for good here is infinite and the potential for bad is 10 times for example there's war undetectable beat fakes and scams so people don't understand how many different ways they are going to be robbed look i don't think blaming technology for all of it is the right thing all these issues they're already here they're all fathers here so what are you saying to your children well first of all
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And the people who are at the head of the processes that result in that elimination for the need for workers start talking about useless eaters. Maybe they come up with a new term this time.
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Yep. Or they allow it to be thinned or something.
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So the first one is the one I worry least about. I don't worry zero about it, but I worry least about it, which is the malevolent AI that the Doomers are so focused on. The second one is the idea that, you know, an AI can be misaligned not because it has
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divergent interest but because it just misunderstands what you've asked these autonomous agents you know the famous example is you ask them to produce as many paper clips as possible and they start liquidating the universe to make paper clips and you know it's a it's a sorcerer's apprentice kind of issue the third one i would say is actually all of the remainder of them i would say are guaranteed and um
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To have something acting autonomously to accomplish a goal, you damn well better understand what the goal really is and how to how to pull back the reins in the event that it starts accomplishing something that wasn't the goal. The potential for abuse is also utterly profound.
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The third of them is the derangement of human intellect, that we are already living in a world where it's very difficult to know what the facts even mean. The facts are so filtered and we are so persuaded by algorithms that our ability to be confident even in the basic facts, even within our own discipline sometimes, is at an all-time low. And it's getting worse.
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And that problem takes a giant leap forward at the point that you have the ability to generate undetectable deep fakes, right? That's going to alter the world very radically when the fact that you're looking at videotape of somebody robbing a bank doesn't mean that they robbed a bank or that a bank was even robbed.
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And I don't know how you deal with that, but sorry, do you continue? Well, I mean, that's actually on the list here. The massive disruption to the way things function, both because people are going to be unemployed in huge numbers and because those who are not abiding by our social contract are going to find themselves empowered more than the people who do.
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So in this case, not only is this poor woman now out 500 bucks for whatever the scam was, but you've also been robbed. whether or not you pay her back for the thing that she thought she purchased, your credibility is being stolen by somebody and you have no capacity to prevent it. This has happened to me also. And it is profoundly disturbing.
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You know, you can imagine just pick your, your dark mirror, uh, fantasy dystopia where something has been told to hunt you down until you're dead. And it sees that as a, you know, a technical challenge. So I, I don't know quite how to balance a discussion about all of the things that can clearly come from this that are utterly transcendent.
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And it is only one of a dozen different ways that AI enables those who are absolutely willing to shrink the pie from which we all derive in order to enlarge their slice. There are innumerable ways that this can happen. And I think people do not see it coming. They don't understand how many different ways they are going to be Robbed every bit as surely as if somebody was printing money.
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And then the last one is that this just simply accelerates demographic processes that do potentially result in the unleashing of technologies that pre-existed AI. This can easily result in an escalation into wars that turn nuclear. So anyway, I think that list could probably be augmented at this point now that we've spent a little time in the AI era.
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We can begin to put a little more flesh on the bones, both of what is possible in this era and what we should fear.
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Well, I don't know because I didn't live in Soviet Russia. But my understanding from people who did was that there was a wide awareness that the propaganda wasn't true. It doesn't mean they knew what to believe. But there was a cynicism, which is one of my fears here, is that you're really stuck choosing between two bad options here.
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In a world where you can't tell what is true, you can either be overly credulous and be a sucker all the time or you can become a cynic and you can be paralyzed by the fact that you just don't believe anything.
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It's not chat GPT exactly, but all of the various AI engines have briefly enhanced our capacity to know what's true because, in fact, they allow us to see through the algorithmic manipulation. Because the AI is not well policed, you can get it to recognize patterns that people will swear are not true. And so anyway, a lot of us have found it useful in just simply unhooking the gaslighting.
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So that's been very positive. But I also remember the early days of search. And search used to be a matter of There are some pages out there. I don't know where they are. Here's a mechanized something that's looked through this stuff and just point me at the direction of things that contain these words, right?
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Before the algorithmic manipulation started steering us into believing pure nonsense because somebody who controlled these things decided it was useful for us to believe those things. So my guess is at the moment, AI is enhancing our ability to see more clearly, but that really depends on some kind of agreement to protect that capacity that I'm not aware of us having.
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I mean, I do think it is not inappropriate to be invoking God or biblical metaphors here. You know, you're producing water seemingly from thin air. I believe that does have an exact biblical parallel. So any case, the power is here. But so too is the need for cautionary tales, which we don't have.
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Well, but let's take the example you say. Is meta incentivized to solve this problem? Superficially, it seems that it should be. But how many times in recent history have we watched a corporation cannibalize its own business over what at best is the bizarre desires of its shareholders? Yeah. Why was X throwing off people with large accounts or Facebook or Google?
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It would seem that you would expect, based on the market, choosing search engines or social media sites, you would expect that. these companies to be absolutely mercenary and say, you know, if Alex Jones has a big audience, who are we to say? That's what I would have expected.
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Instead, you had these companies policing the morality of thought, even though it reduced the size of the population using the platforms. I have a hard time explaining why that happened, but I have every reason to expect the same thing will happen with AI.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
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There's a couple of different ways. One, we have, as we mentioned before, a dearth of competent teachers and professors. And that is a problem that will take three generations at least to solve if what we're going to do is start tomorrow and start educating people in the right way that would make them competent to stand at the front of a room and educate.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
But if we can augment that process, if we can leverage a tool like AI so that a small number of competent teachers can maybe reach a larger number of pupils, that's plausible, I think. Second thing is we have a tremendous number of problems that are obstacles to us living well on this planet that AI might be able to manage that human intellect alone cannot, right?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
Just in the same way that compute power can calculate things at a rate that human beings can't keep up. And there are certain things you want calculated very well. There are also some reasoning problems. You could imagine... That instead of having static laws that govern behavior poorly because they get gamed, that you could have a dynamic interaction.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
You could specify an objective of something like a law. And then you could monitor whether or not a particular intervention successfully moved you in the direction that you were hoping to go or did something paradoxical, which happens all the time. And you could basically have governance that is targeted to navigation and prototyping rather than to specifying a blueprint for how we are to live.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
So we wouldn't need politicians? No. At the moment, we're stuck with constitutional protections that are as good as has been constructed and still inadequate to modern realities.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
That's the problem, is that there's no body of myth that will warn us properly of this tool because we've just crossed a threshold that is similar in its capacity to alter the world as... the invention of writing, I really think that's where we are. We're talking about something that is going to fundamentally alter what humans are with no plan.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
Writing alters the world slowly because the number of people who can do it is tiny at first and remains so for thousands of years. This is changing things weekly. And that's an awful lot of power to just simply have dumped on a system that wasn't well regulated to begin with.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
I would also just point out that I think we're not being imaginative enough. I agree with you. I have the same concern about these autonomous weapons, but I also think this doesn't have to occur in the context of war or even governmental oppression, that it is perfectly conceivable that effectively this drops the price of an undetectable or an unprosecutable crime.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
And maybe economic moats return in the form of people taking out their competitors or anybody who attempts to compete with them using an autonomous drone that can't be traced back to them. you know, that follows facial recognition and, you know, you don't have to kill very many people for others to get the message that this is a zone that you shouldn't mess around in.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
So I could imagine, you know, effectively a new high-tech organized crime that protects rackets and makes tons of money and subjugates people who haven't done anything wrong.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
does that mean that we're just at home in our vr environment with everything taking care for us and literally like the matrix and the world the real world would suck in such a scenario yes it'd be terrible i mean the other simpler explanation of the fermi paradox is that you generate sufficient technology that you can end your species and it's only a matter of time from that point which you know we can have that discussion about nuclear weapons we can have it about ai but
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
Does some technology, if we stay on that escalator, does some technology that we generate ultimately...
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
There you go.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
Well... It is obviously a moment of a kind of human phase transition, something that I believe will be the equal of a discovery of farming or writing or electricity. And the darkness that I think is valid in looking at all of the possible outcomes of this scenario is actually potentially part of a different story as well. In evolutionary biology, we talk about an adaptive landscape in which
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
A niche is represented as a peak and a higher niche, a better niche, is represented as a higher peak. But to get from the lower niche to the higher niche, you have to cross through what we call an adaptive valley. And there's no guarantee that you make it through the adaptive valley. And in fact, the drawing that we put on the board, I think,
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
is overly hopeful because it makes it in two dimensions it looks like you know exactly where to go to climb that next peak and in fact it's more like the peaks are islands in an archipelago that is in fog where you can't figure out what direction that peak is and you have to reason out it's probably that way and you hope not to miss it by a few degrees
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
But in any case, that darkness is exactly what you would expect if we were about to discover a better phase for humans. And I think we should be very deliberate about it this time. I think we should think carefully about how it is that we do not allow the combination of this brand new, extremely powerful technology and market forces to turn this into some new kind of enslavement.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
And I don't think it has to be. I think the potential here does allow us to refactor just about everything. Maybe we have finally arrived at the place where mundane work doesn't need to exist anymore and the pursuit of meaning can replace it. But that's not going to happen automatically if we don't figure out how to make it happen.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
AI AGENTS EMERGENCY DEBATE: These Jobs Won't Exist In 24 Months! Containment Has Failed, We Must Prepare For What's Coming!
And I hope that we can recognize that the peril of this moment is best utilized if it motivates us to confront that question directly.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
This episode of the Joe Rogan Experience is brought to you by Call of Duty Black Ops 6. Dive into a twisted 90s spy thriller in the latest Call of Duty game on October 25th. Black Ops is back with a cinematic single-player campaign, best-in-class multiplayer, and the return of round-based zombies. Get exclusive benefits with the Premium Vault Edition.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
I think it's important to point out that you had this idea a while ago and that it was actually removed from Twitter.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, that's a great way to put it. And I'm glad you did point out the fact that there were really things. The Red Scare is a weird example because people would like to kind of dismiss the impact that communists, especially Russia, was having on our government. And there was a pretty big impact. I mean, they did steal the plans for the nuclear bomb.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But what's important is that it was removed from Twitter.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, here's the thing you could do very easily. You put bots onto this program. So you have these people that are tweeting under this banner, and then you send the bots to that page to agree with them. They say, oh, my God, we found bots. Right. Let's shut it down.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
There's a lot of shit that happened because of actual communist interference. Yeah. But the narrative when I was in high school was that the Red Scare was bad, right? It was like everybody went crazy and they were all looking for – which was true too. But that's part of the problem when you don't know. Like back then, no internet, very little paper trail.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Robert Malone? And this is September 29th. And what is the Web site? Join the resistance dot org.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
All right. Hear, hear. Burt Weinstein, appreciate you very much.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Thank you. Thanks for being you. All right. Goodbye, everybody. All right. We were going to end. Ladies and gentlemen, a bonus. A bonus. We had forgot to talk about this one thing. So when Tucker was on, he was saying that there was no evidence for evolution.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, he's absolutely willing to change his mind. Yeah. About everything.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
It's very important that he's got such a big voice because of that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
It's really hard to find out who's talking to who unless you get an actual listening device in the room and capture them talking.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So anyway, he's oddly misinterpreted. Yes. Like the way people pretend he is versus how he actually is. I mean, he doesn't do himself any favors. Like when he had that guy on that said he blew Obama. Like, wait, he's just wild. But I mean, he's willing to have on anybody, I guess. But but who he is as a person, he's a lovely guy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Oh, yeah. Right? Yeah, which is really interesting about him. Passionate fly fisherman.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, I do, too. And it is interesting. There's a certain group of people that are just on Team Blue. They say anything positive about Tucker and you're some sort of a terrible villain and he represents white supremacy. Yep. Okay. Yeah. What? Yeah, it was a strange discovery. But it's being connected to Fox News. You get attached to Fox News.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
You get attached, especially him, the most popular voice on Fox News.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, it's just the rational voice is so discouraged in today's world. The rational, objective voice where you look at both sides. You look at – I see why someone would say this. I see what you're saying. I see this. Everybody immediately gets polarized. Everybody immediately connects to their ideology and changes –
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
The words of someone to be the least charitable version of what it is and the most heinous interpretation of who that human being is. And if you support them, you support this. And if you platform them, you platform this. And it's just nonsense. It's nonsense peddled by morons. It's a moronic way to look at the world. It really is.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
bobby kennedy was a kook yeah 100 i said it's him when he came on the podcast i said i have to be honest that my version of you was connected entirely to you being an anti-vaxxer conspiracy theorist kook the dark cloud of the kennedy family this one guy who's just nuts unfortunately too bad then i read the real anthony falchion i was like hang on Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Oh, it's it's then I talked to some brilliant people that I know that recommended certain things and told me to read some other things that he had written. I'm like, oh, OK, this is another one of those. Another one. Well, there's people that meet me and they think I'm some right wing kook, you know, conspiracy theorist, asshole, mean person. It's like, okay, how do you get there?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
You're getting there because someone's led you there. You're not getting there from a normal objective analysis of a person, who they are and what they stand for. That's exactly it. And with him, he's connected to that business, that business of first environment, right? So he's an environmental attorney. He cleaned up the East River and did a lot of great work.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. And he's so well measured when even dealing with these attacks, the way he handles things is so admirable.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. And you're being led. You're being led by what's essentially propaganda. And it's to polarize us. It's to keep us separated and to keep us thinking that you don't have anything in common with people on the right and they're demons. You don't have anything in common with people on the left. They're loons. Like you and I are both very socially liberal. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And the idea that you'd be sitting here saying Trump's got to win. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
It's crazy, but the world's crazy. And when the world's crazy, you have to have crazy solutions.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, if you just get one good one, you're hooked. For me, it was the Kennedy assassination. One good book on the Kennedy assassination. I was like, God damn it. They killed the fucking president. It freaked me out forever. That was like I literally had a giant shift in how I viewed the world after reading that book.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Because before that, I was never a questioner of whatever was in the news or whatever the narrative was that we were being told about anything.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So how do you know if your dog's food is as healthy and as safe as it can be? Well, Farmer's Dog gives you that peace of mind by making fresh, real food. developed by board-certified nutritionists to provide all the nutrients your dog needs. And their food is human-grade, which means it's made to the same quality and safety standards as human food.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But can it get you to where an octopus can change its texture and completely camouflage itself to look like a coral reef?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. Right. Or to a human. Right. True to a human.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So do you think there's a process that it's yet to be discovered? There's something else going on?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. Well, which is one of the reasons why they're so terrified of Trump. There's a certain amount of stealing they can do. Let's imagine if it is dirty and you really can manipulate elections. How much can you manipulate by? Can you manipulate it by 30 percent? You know? We don't know. And as long as they can have you believing in the polls, this is what's really important, polls.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Kamala Harris is up by 3%. Oh, she's up. She's winning. Like, who the fuck are you talking to? Who are you talking to?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, some magic. It's like, you know, there's that theory, that concept about multiple dimensions. multiple universes that we all live. This possibility that there's infinite numbers of universes all around us all the time and we enter into a different timeline. We entered into a different timeline. Clearly. Something happened.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. So that's what we're talking about. So we're talking about like maybe they can cheat by 10%.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, it would take a person with that kind of personality that could withstand that kind of abuse. Because he didn't freak out at all when they went after him. He was like, eh. Right. Just brushed it off like it was nothing. And no one's done that. He's also the only guy that's ever gone through four years and didn't age like he went through 30 years. That's true. He aged normal. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
He's used to it. He's used to pressure. And Bush... He aged a ton. Obama aged a ton. Everybody aged a ton. Biden was already cooked before he got in, but he's hard. But he aged a ton. I mean, Biden from 2019 to today is a different person.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Very few pet foods are made to this strict standard. And let's be clear, human-grade food doesn't mean the food is fancy. It just means it's safe and healthy. It's simple, real food from people who care about what goes into your dog's body. The Farmer's Dog makes it easy to help your dog live a long, healthy life by sending you fresh food that's pre-portioned just for your dog's needs.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
He's trying to be a little bit more reasonable, you know, and try to appeal to more people because of that, you know, that effort to be more reasonable. Like he's he's changed his mind about a lot of things. He's talking about legalizing marijuana.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
He's talking about all these different things that are like where, you know, you're going to get a lot of different responses from like the hardcore Republicans are not going to be for that. You know, any... Any idea of abortion, the hardcore right wing are not interested at all. And any restrictions on abortion at all, you get your hardcore left wing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So it's the mostly it's the people in the middle. Abortion is a good one, right? Because most people are like no one should be able to tell you what you could do with your body. But also aborting an eight month old fetus is kind of fucking insane.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Interesting. Right. Because blue collar people were generally union people, which were generally Democrats.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yes, that's recent. That's recent over the last year. It is interesting, right? Because we did growing up always associate unions and blue collar people with voting Democrat because Democrats were looking out for the middle class, looking out for people's best interests, supporting unions and fair wages and funding schools and all that kind of stuff. Keep a neighborhood safe.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And Republicans were more like small government. Fuck you. Figure it out. I don't want to pay taxes. Yes. Stingy. And they were the ones that are encouraging war. Yep. Which is crazy today that you have this massive 180 degree shift. And the Democrats are talking about how important it is that we keep funding Ukraine.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Because every dog is different, and I'm not just talking about breeds. From their size to their personality to their health, every dog is unique. Plus, precise portions can help keep your dog at an ideal weight, which is one of the proven predictors of a long life. Look, no one, dog or human, should be eating highly processed foods for every meal. It doesn't matter how old your dog is.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And that we have some sort of – whether you're pro-Hamas or pro-Palestine, I should say, or whether you're pro-Israel, there's involvement in that. No one is saying – no Democrats are saying we need to get the fuck out of there. They're saying we need to free Palestine. Oh, OK. How are you going to do that? How are you going to do that? How much is involved in that?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Are you going to bring in people? Are you going to send people there? What are you going to do? Are you going to kill people for this? Yeah. What are we doing? The Democrats are there. You guys are looking for war. You're not looking for peaceful solutions like this is kind of weird. This is interesting. You know that we need to beat Russia. Are you out of your fucking mind? Are you serious?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Do you know how big that place is? Do you know how much military force is behind Putin? What are you talking about? What are you talking about? Like what if he just decides to go nuclear at any point in time? He gets pressured. You keep advancing further and further into Russia. And he's like, I'll just end this right now. I'll just turn Kiev into a fucking sandbox. Boom. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Did you see the article that I posted on my Instagram that's a title of a New York Times article for today? Which one? Jamie, pull this up. I want Brett to see this so you know this is real. This isn't the Babylon Bee. This is an actual New York Times article. You see it? This is so crazy. It's really hard to believe that someone would print this and the New York Times say, yeah, we like it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
The Constitution is sacred. Is it also dangerous? One of the biggest threats to America politics might be the country's founding document. What the fuck are you talking about?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
One of the biggest threats to America's politics might be one of the greatest documents that any country was ever founded on, if not the greatest ever.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
That could be a threat to America's politics. What politics are we talking about? How could you possibly gaslight me enough to go along with you on this?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
It's always a great time to start investing in their health and happiness. So, try the Farmer's Dog today. You can get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food at thefarmersdog.com slash rogan. Plus, you get free shipping. Just go to thefarmersdog.com slash rogan. Tap the banner or visit this episode's page to learn more. Offer applicable for new customers only.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, this is why a person like Trump is so important to them. Because if you don't have someone that is an imminent threat on the horizon in three months, it's very difficult to justify all this shit. So if you have Kamala Harris and she's competing against Ron DeSantis, if it's just Kamala Harris and Ron DeSantis and Trump doesn't exist, maybe he died. Maybe he died in the last few years.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
How could you – you wouldn't be able to make that argument. There's no imminent threat. Let's say Mitt Romney. Let's say someone even more moderate as a Republican, even more palatable. You can't make that argument that we don't need – we can't have a First Amendment because the First Amendment is getting in the way.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
The First Amendment is allowing people to say things that aren't true, misinformation and disinformation. And right here, we're September 2nd. I think yesterday was the first day where Brazil banned Twitter. I know. So X is illegal to have in Brazil as of today, as of yesterday. And not only is it illegal, but you go through it through a VPN and they will charge you $8,000 a day.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Not as ramped up as this is, though. This is like Hitler, Hitler talk. They never talked about Mitt Romney like he was Hitler.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
This episode is brought to you by SimpliSafe. I talk a lot about taking care of yourself, you know, working out and eating right, but that also means you should be doing what you can to stay safe, and no one does safe quite like SimpliSafe. They have some of the best home security systems on the market, and they make it so easy to protect what you care about most, you and your family.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So if you're going to trust anyone with you and your family's safety, trust SimpliSafe. They've been named Best Home Security Systems by U.S. News & World Report for five years running. And right now, you can get an exclusive 50% discount on a new system, plus a free indoor security camera with fast protect monitoring. Just visit simplisafe.com slash rogan.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But this offer is available for a limited time only, so be sure to order today. That's simplisafe.com slash rogan. There's no safe like SimpliSafe. This episode is brought to you by Kitanica. Looking for indestructible outdoor gear that can handle anything you can throw at it? Look no further than Kitanica. Sold factory direct at Kitanica.com.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. That's that's a that's where a fun meme is. There's a fun meme that someone made about how you're telling me that he's going to do these things that he didn't when he was in office. And you're telling me that you're going to do these things that you didn't do and you're in office now.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. And they're weaponizing the courts over what was a misdemeanor with that's already. If you look at the like Bill Ackman had a post that he made on Twitter laying out the legality of this 34 count thing that they convicted him of. that this is essentially an accounting error or deception that's a misdemeanor that is past the statute of limitations.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And very dangerous because you've set a precedent now. Now, let's imagine like we've gone through shifts in this country where we leaned heavily left, like during the Carter administration was run by serious lefty. And then what if now it is run by a hardcore right-winger? What if there's some sort of an attack on American soil and it ramps up patriotism and people get real angry?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Just like the left has moved so far left that if you're not in favor of hormone blockers for kids, somehow you're transphobic and you're a bigot. Like somehow or another, if you're not in favor of that, you're a bigot. What if it gets so right? that if you're not in favor of stops and frisks all over the country for everyone, then somehow or another you're anti-safety of the nation.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And if you're not in favor of no-knock raids on people's homes with no warrants, then somehow or another you're a danger to our democracy. It can go really creepy far right, just like it's really creepy far left, and then they're utilizing the court's
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Didn't some shit go down today? Didn't we steal the president of Venezuela's plane? Yeah, I think we just stole his plane.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
If they fill the courts up with a bunch of hardcore Republicans, now you're utilizing the courts against people in a way that you would find very offensive because you've made it – you set a precedent.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
No, not us. Okay, good. The United States. Someone stole his plane. All right. Which is kind of an act of war. What is that? Was he in it? I don't think so. No. I think we just stole his plane. Just like for a joyride? What's the story? U.S. seizes Venezuela President Nicolas Maduro's airplane in the Dominican Republic. So we said, nope, we're stealing that. How does that work?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
You get great perks like the Mastercraft Weapon Collection and the Gobble Gum Pack for Zombies. Call of Duty Black Ops 6 pre-order now. This episode is brought to you by Crash Champions. Getting in a wreck sucks. There's not much else worse for your plans. And that's exactly when you need a pro to help you out.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But isn't existence itself insane? The universe itself is insane. Subatomic particles are insane. Going all the way out to solar nurseries, it's all insane. The whole thing's insane. It's insane in scope. It's insane in size. It's insane in its complexity. It's almost incomprehensible. Almost incomprehensible.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So why would it be more incomprehensible if there was infinite variety and infinite numbers of them? It would just be a different level of crazy that we weren't aware of.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
I think it's literally impossible. We just look at it as a number. It's a small number, actually. You look at it, oh, like what's the most recent, the James Webb Telescope, the most recent advanced versions of it, they're talking about 22 billion plus years for the Big Bang.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
They're looking at that now because of the structure of some galaxies that shouldn't exist in the time period of which they would have to... be formed in a certain amount of years. And so it's very contentious, but there's some of these people studying the results that seem to believe it's quite possible that you might want to push that date back for whatever the Big Bang is. Right. Okay.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And then there's Sir Roger Penrose who thinks it's like a constant cycle.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
i don't know about that i don't i don't think that's necessarily true because just because we haven't solved the problem of this immense thing that's impossible to grasp it doesn't mean it can't be way bigger than we even imagine in a concept that's impossible to grasp And there's got to be some reason why so many people are entertaining this multiverse theory.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Even if you don't get along with a president of a country, how disrespectful is it to steal their plane? You're right. It's an act of war. Imagine if Xi Jinping landed somewhere and we're like, we're going to steal your fucking plane. Yeah. No chance. That's a bully move. That's a move you can only do to a country like Venezuela.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
I think it sounds like the universe, though. I don't think the universe necessarily sounds like nature. Nature is what we see here. But what we see everywhere is so bizarre. Black holes are so bizarre. Supernovas, they're so fucking bizarre.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
The fact that there's a giant black hole in the center of every galaxy that's one half of 1% of the mass of the galaxy, and there might be another universe inside of that thing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, the existence of the black hole, but the concept of a black hole being essentially a portal into another universe where there's hundreds of billions of galaxies, each one with a black hole in the center of them. You go through each one of those, you have hundreds of billions of galaxies, each one with a black hole in the center of it. And you just keep doing that forever and ever and ever.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Isn't that kind of the multiverse? Well, let's put it this way.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
You think AI can't get a grasp on this in a better way?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Quantum computing a thousand years from now might have a.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. What about a future in which we develop some sort of propulsion system and attach it to a drone that's not it's not based on fuel. It's based on some sort of gravity thing and allows you to traverse immense distances very quickly. And then we could actually get that fucker way out there, take some video and bring it back.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, it's okay. It's all funded by the government. Oh, right. Infinite money. We just print checks. Oh, we'll just tax people. And we'll blame the UFOs.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think so, too. Yeah. I think both things are true. I think we have been visited. And I think it only makes sense. I think there is life out there because it doesn't make sense if there isn't. And I think I would visit.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
If I got 1,000 years more advanced than we are and we found out about some planet that's 2,000 light years away that actually is making nuclear bombs, fuck yeah, I'd visit. Of course. I'd visit. 100%.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So, of course they would visit, and of course they would want to protect us from the overwhelming shock to our culture that would undoubtedly be thrust upon us if we were confronted with a city-sized spaceship that's hovering over Detroit, just hovering over there. It would send the world into a massive panic. No one would know what to do.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
That's got to be good news because we're – Right, but to anyone in power, this would be a gigantic threat.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
To anyone trying to pass off some sort of narrative that this is the – that we're in the lead in terms of like the moral high ground of the world and that we're the wisest, we're the best, we're going to make decisions for everybody, that would throw a monkey wrench completely into the gears of that. Oh, totally. So they would lose all control. They would lose all authority.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Because I don't think they are. That's not what I'm saying. I think that would freak them out, and they're not doing that, right? I think if they are real and they do observe us, they probably observe us in a way where there's a limited amount of detection. And I think there's probably – if I was going to acclimate a culture to the idea that they're not alone, I would do it slowly.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
That way you could have the same ultimate effect eventually and maybe – Maybe help them along their evolution as well, along their cultural evolution to like slowly introduce this concept that they're not alone and then do it over decades, which is exactly what's been happening. And the acceptance of it has changed from when I was a kid. You talk about UFOs. You're a fucking kook.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So this says, Merrick Garland said that the Justice Department seized an aircraft we allege was illegally purchased for $13 million through a shell company and smuggled out of the United States for use by Nicolas Maduro and his cronies. What business is that of ours, though? This is what I don't understand. Like, if it was purchased through a shell company... Then it was purchased. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Straight up kook. And then the Bob Lazar story came around and everybody was like, hey, wait a minute. is that guy telling the truth? And that was like 89, but still seemed like bullshit. And then there was a bunch of questions about his education background. Ah, bullshit artist.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But then over time, more people have seen enough things like Commander David Fravor and more people have seen things that like have no explanation whatsoever. And, You start hearing stories from high-level people about retrieved vehicles and this and that. It's more and more and more and more and more normal people talking about it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And more and more professors at Stanford and the New York Times in 2017 print a story and respected Air Force pilots are coming out and talking about it. It's a different world. And it's a different world just over a few decades. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. I haven't either. But also, I haven't seen anything, right? Right. These are unique experiences. And the problem with unique experiences is... Everyone has to just sort of trust you unless you have some kind of evidence. Everyone has to trust you, even if it's a whole town. It's a unique experience in the town. Mass hypnosis, bunch of bullshit artists.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
They're taking advantage of it for tourism like Virginia and Brazil. The entire town saw this thing. So, you know, I'm not sure if it's all bullshit. I think there's some bullshit mixed in with some real stuff. That's what I think. This is my conclusion over time. Because if you go back to like the Kenneth Arnold sightings in the 1950s, we didn't have anything that moved like that. Nobody did.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
There's no way anybody had anything in the 1950s that could shoot across the sky soundless, make no noise, skip like flying saucers is the way they described it. There was a – I think there was nine of them together. We didn't have anything like that. So maybe occasionally we're visited. Maybe occasionally they show themselves. And maybe they have been here.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Tucker thinks they've been here all along. He thinks they're a part of this world that we live in. They hide from us. Maybe they live in the ocean.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. If they had some sort of a drone that used gravity and could zip across the sky like 10x light speed, they wouldn't tell you about it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So you think the radar... When they use radar and they find these things, what do you think that is?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So you could force a blip onto someone's radar? Sure. You could hack their radar?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, let's talk about the David Fravor one, right? Because this is 2004, so it kind of limits our ability in terms of... You know, you have high technology, you have extremely powerful computers, you have a lot of stuff going on, but... We certainly don't have what we have 20 years later, right? Yep. We all agree to that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Now, they have multiple different mediums, multiple different types of evidence. They have visual eyewitness testimony, and more than one jet sees this thing. More than one pilot sees this thing. They all have the same story. This thing zips across the sky. They have the radar that shows that this thing went from 50,000 feet above sea level to 50 in a second. Mm-hmm.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
They have this thing moving at speeds on video where you see it move on video that would turn anybody inside it into jello. Yep. So it's whatever the fuck this is, it's doing something that we didn't think human beings could do. Yeah. Right. So you have three different ways of verifying that there is something there. You have the radar. You have video. You have eyewitness testimony.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
It says smuggled out of the United States. The plane was purchased from a company in Florida, the Justice Department said, and was illegally exported in April 2023 from the United States to Venezuela through the Caribbean. So are we not allowed to sell them planes? Is that what it is? Like, because we have a problem with them? Would they say how much it costs? $13 million? Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
You have this thing flying to the cat point where they were initially supposed to, when they were doing their training mission, they were supposed to meet.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So how would you fake a visual sighting from trained fighter jet pilots over the ocean?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
A projection. Yeah. And where would the projector be?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And how would you do that? What technology would enable you to make something? I mean, they even had a disturbance of the ocean floor or of the ocean surface rather.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So this would explain why these things are able to stay stationary in 120 knot winds because they're not affected by physical reality. Yeah. They're just images.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Okay, so he's got this $13 million plane, a Dassault Falcon 900EX, since been used to fly almost exclusively to and from military base in Venezuela. Justice Department said CNN reached out to Venezuelan government. You asked, huh? It seems like, though, there's more to it than that plane was illegal. You shouldn't have that plane.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Have you seen any of Gary Nolan's stuff on the metallurgy, on the different samples they've collected from these supposed down crafts that defy our understanding of how to create alloys and how expensive it would be to craft these things?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. I mean, I don't know who... See if you can find anything on Gary Nolan's samples. So Diana Pasolko, who had been on the podcast before, she had done some excavating of these areas where they purport that these things had crashed and they could still find pieces, which made me a little skeptical. As soon as I see you can still find – you didn't pick them all up? Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Why wouldn't they send someone out there to pick everything up?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
You would get every single scrap of that stuff. But if I wanted someone to believe that a craft was there, I'd leave a bunch of bullshit out in the field. I'd blindfold them like they did. I'd take them out to this spot. This is the spot. Look around. Oh, look, you found a piece. How do you not know where all the fucking pieces are?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
If this thing crashed 30 years ago, why didn't you go over this place with a fine-tooth comb? People do that for arrowheads. Why would you not do that for alien craft metal? Of course you would. Yeah. Also, there's the other problem. It's like, why are these things crashing?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
They're so fucking good. They can get here from another dimension.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
They get a hold of some fucking Jack Daniels. Next thing you know, they're crashed in the sand. They're having a good time in America. It's also, that's a big problem, too. A lot of these sightings are in America. If you look at the chart, there's sightings overseas, for sure. They happen all over the world, undoubtedly. But they happen a lot more here.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, we do. We have multiple alien problems. Yeah, we have multiple. That's another thing that they're gaslighting people on, the idea that they would let people come over here so they would vote. Of course they would. That's a great way to get voters. So these are these pieces that Gary Nolan claims to have had. And what does it say about these pieces?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
explosion. Okay, so this is from, how do you say that? Ubatuba? Ubatuba, Brazil? So this is a different, it might be a different pronunciation in Portuguese, but this is a different crash than the Varginha one. So there's been multiple sightings and things happen in Brazil, apparently. Brazil also has a little bit of an alien problem. Oh, yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But the Virginia one is wild. That's the most wild one.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Let me see that again. That could just be a low-resolution photograph.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. Sure. We're not there. We don't get to see these things. Also, even if you gave it to me, how's that going to help me? I have no idea. Yeah, I don't know what that is. Yeah. I don't even, even if you gave me the microscopes to look at it, I'm like, what am I seeing? Right. I'm seeing layers. Is that what this is? Right. How'd they do this?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. Yeah. Like if there really is a body. Just one. Everyone says there's a frozen body somewhere.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Let some people in. Okay, here it is. Alleged extraterrestrial metal from the bottom of a wedge-shaped craft in the late 1940s made of 26 alternating layers, 1 to 4 microns dark bismuth and 100 to 200 microns silver-magnesium-zinc alloy. Each of six pieces received from U.S. Army-sourced were formed with a curvature that tapered. This episode is brought to you by Moe's Southwest Grill.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
For years, officials have sought to disrupt the flow of billions of dollars to the regime. Homeland Security Investigations, the second largest investigative agency in the federal government, has seized dozens of luxury vehicles, among other assets, headed to Venezuela. So there's a U.S. sanction. So there's a sanction. This is it. The plane was seized in violation of U.S.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Chips come free with every meal, so go ahead and treat yourself. Stop by any of your Moe's Southwest Grill locations today and welcome to Moe's. Wow.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. That's the problem. Yeah, that's the problem. Also, the late 1940s. How many of these fucking things crashed? It's happening all the time. That's a weird thing, right? Think of how many Corvettes there are. Yeah. You don't find a whole lot of them on the side of the road crashed.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Nobody's finding Corvettes in the desert. Look, we found a Corvette. There's so many Corvettes. There's millions of them.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Oh, man. They're so smart. They can come here from other planets and they just boom.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Or maybe the only people that are the only intelligent life outside of this planet that's willing to do it, they're like Australian outback people. They're like those wild dudes who go overlanding. Australia has a big overlanding culture where they build up these vehicles and they take them off into the bush and they live off of them. My friend Adam Greentree does that. These people are wild.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Australians are wild folk. So maybe they're like the Australians of space. Overlanding and it doesn't always work out. Overlanding. They're these nuts that – there's people that go out in the desert for 30 days and they have enough food and water and they have a solar thing on the top of their rig and that charges their cell phone and they have jerry cans of petrol so they can keep going.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
traverse vast empty spaces and go to places that were known to have life I'd be all about that but it would only be the real hardcore adventurers that would take that chance and maybe those people are nuts maybe those alien people are nuts just like the human people are nuts that do that kind of stuff right they like to get into trouble winch themselves out wild people they got winches on their spaceships exactly
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, you've got to also think, here's another problem with the idea of them being biological. It's far more effective to send things that are non-biological into space, like what we're doing on Mars. We don't have a base on Mars, allegedly, but there's a lot of nutty people that believe we do.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But they do certainly have some robots that are on Mars that's gathering data, and they're doing it right now. And so you don't have to worry about radiation, all the things that kill people, make people sad. If we lose one of those rovers, who gives a fuck? Make another rover. Ship it out there. Fly it. Nobody cares.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
sanctions with Venezuela. And other criminal matters that we're looking at regarding this aircraft, they're going to find a reason to keep it. Like they stole all those boats from all those Russian cats. Yeah. Sorry, you're too rich and you know Putin, so give me your vote.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
If you lose 50 people, if you take 50 people and they die on your Mars trip, you're going to have Congress is going to be meeting about it. What are we doing? Why are we killing people? Let's not do that. And so as...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Time goes on and as technology improves and as sentient artificial intelligence becomes a better option for sending some intelligent robot to gather data, why would anybody go through space as a living creature? It seems stupid.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
That's the thing. Humans live in the Amazon. True. Humans don't live on Mars. It's way simpler to send a robot to Mars.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. But... But it's definitely a potential reality. And if it was possible, it would be a good move if you wanted to hedge your bets.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Which is Elon's position on this. Yeah. You know, that we're in danger of the human race going extinct from a variety of different things. Not even our own fault. It could be a bunch of different things. Asteroid impacts, super volcanoes. A lot of stuff can happen right here that kills us all. Space weather.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Oh, yeah. Fucking some supernova. Too close. Sorry. Everything's cooked.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And maybe that's what happened to Mars, which is also part of the problem. Because Mars at one time had an atmosphere. Mars at one time had liquid water. We don't really know what happened.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And we're really looking at a very brief amount of time that we can measure in terms of human experience. It's so brief in terms of what we know about what human beings have experienced. And then we have to go back to like core samples. You have to go back to, oh, it appears that there was Earth one and Earth one was hit by another planet. That's how we get the moon and then the moon.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
What a crazy thing that this thing stabilizes us. It's in the exact same right position, exact right size to make sure that we can exist as we exist right now. It's like somebody put it there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
It's a beautiful thing, but it's. It's kind of kooky. It's almost like someone put it there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Don't you think now, though, most people, I feel like genuinely most people are aware there's more to the story? Every story. Everything in the news. Every time something comes up, people are like, what's the whole story here?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. Or, yeah, it's odd, but that's also why there's not life everywhere.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And this does happen. And when it does happen, then you get some life.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But until it happens and the variety of temperature changes over the course of the seasons is just too vast for what we understand as biological life to survive. But then – or at least intelligent – It's not just biological. It has to be intelligent. It has to be able to manipulate its environment. It has to be able to record the previous thoughts in history, develop language.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And it's really tough to do that if you're in an environment and you've adapted to an environment that can vary by 300 degrees.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
You have to have food. You have to have food and you have to have your feet up and go, why are we here? Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
exactly this is why this kind of thought emerges once people sort of settle down yep and get some food start herding some cattle and go hey stars are kind of crazy yeah you ever looked up instead everybody's just looking in the bushes for what's going to kill them what's going to eat me you know it's funny i've spent a lot of time watching animals they don't look at the sky oh that's interesting it is interesting that is very interesting that's very interesting
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, we look outward and we look inward, which is really like next level, right? Like we look at microscopes and go, what is going on here?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
We're all filled with bacteria. This whole thing is nuts. Like we're not even an individual. Right. We're an ecosystem. We're individual ecosystems. And the healthier your ecosystem is, the healthier you are as an individual because you're not really an individual.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Hmm. But what about medication for people that have like type one diabetes?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So you think there's an environmental reason for type one diabetes?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Which is just madness. So the reductionist view of just give them a shot of this and a pill of that, like, well, there's a lot more going on here.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And both those ways are good for the people that are running scams.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. The problem is we want you to be hooked on a medication because then we can prescribe that to everybody, and then you have the Sackler family.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
That's a good point. And the problem is... Right now it is. And so we have to figure out how to regain control of that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, which is more important because those doctors believed it. They thought that it was true. I was just talking to a doctor recently that regretted taking it, and they really believed. Yeah. They believed. They believed they were telling people what to do, and now they're injured. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, because if you don't know what's true and what's not true, you're like, oh, geez. And then you get cynical. Oh, it's all bullshit. This whole system is rigged. Then you just go fishing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And then they have this practice where they've told people, this is what you should do, and then a bunch of people did it. Yeah. They got all fucked up and now they're in a situation where it's not just that they got fucked up but like how much time they have left. Like how many of these people are going to drop dead over the next five, ten years? Yeah. Because it's not just one.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
It's not just two. There's probably going to be a bunch. There's a bunch of people out there with like real myocarditis. There's a bunch of people out there that have blood clots. The D-dimer, there's this doctor on Twitter the other day was talking about how it's very rare that he uses an D-dimer test on unvaccinated patients and finds blood clots.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But he finds a ton of them on vaccinated patients. Yeah. And some of them are micro blood clots. Some of them are significant, but that they find quite a few.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
There's so many people out there that are still all in. I've found some lady in my timeline. I don't follow her, but she was talking about how disturbing it is to her that children are not being vaccinated and that COVID is killing kids and the reports that she has of child death. And she was talking about how she wears a mask everywhere.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And then there's all these people in the comments that are commenting on that. I only go to places where I know there's going to be minimal amounts of people. I always wear a mask. And they were all like it was some weird echo chamber where they were all terrified still of what is now like a cold.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
It's not a cold to you, right? When you got it, it was rough.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. It's actually beneficial to them because then you have a smaller number of people that are voting. So essentially in the 2020 elections, it was the largest ever win, right? The Democrats got 80-something million votes, which is – so let's say – even if it was 50-50.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. Did you see Chris Cuomo on Patrick Bet-David's show admit that he's taking ivermectin now?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
He admitted it. He admitted his doctor has him on ivermectin for long COVID. And he kept distinguishing the difference between long COVID and vaccine injuries. Like he said, had some sort of a vaccine injury. Then he was talking about how ivermectin is not good for COVID, but it's good for long COVID. And I'm like, what is long COVID? Long COVID is not even a thing. Like, stop saying that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Like, you're fucked up because either of COVID or you're fucked up because of the vaccine. One of those two things happened where you got damaged. Calling it long COVID is weird because it's like saying you're still sick from COVID. That's not really what happened. Okay, if you get pneumonia and you get lung damage, you don't have long pneumonia, right? You had damage to your lungs.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
It's not long COVID. So you're either taking ivermectin because your doctor said, like, what benefit would ivermectin have on long COVID? Like, what does that mean?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Pierre by Pierre. You're talking about Dr. Pierre Corey. Yep. Did he lose his license or something?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But they are punishing him for- For talking about a beneficial medicine that happens to not be patentable.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
That's crazy. Yeah. It's diabolical, really. It is diabolical. So what would be the mechanism as to which ivermectin would help these people?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So somewhere in the neighborhood of 160 million people, how many people are women and – I mean how many people with children, women can vote? What am I saying? Yeah. How many people are children, rather? Oh, jeez, I have no idea on the percentage. Under 18. It's probably in the 30%. So that's a pretty high turnout. Yes, if that was even the turnout. If it was real. Yeah, that's the problem.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But isn't it bizarre when people that have been vaccinated not once but multiple times and had side effects from the vaccine that they'll report openly? We'll talk about it and say it's long covid while they're still suffering. It's almost like they alleviate themselves from any of the responsibility of making a terrible choice.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And it goes away quick. That was the other thing they kept saying. It's temporary.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. And they also pushed out a narrative that you get more myocarditis from the virus rather than you do from the vaccine.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. Well, what you do is get you get high troponin levels. Right. And I see Mahaltra explained all this is that when you test for that, you can assume if a person is suffering from a viral infection that they will have high troponin levels. But it doesn't mean they have myocarditis. Right. So you're calling it myocarditis without actually doing an MRI on the heart.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Explain the whole thing with the lipid nanoparticles so people understand why they cause damage.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
We have no idea. Therein, that's the problem with the whole cynical game. Because I'm not convinced. You know why I'm not convinced? Because everybody wants me to be convinced. When they yell at you, if you ask a question, like, hey, one of the things that I've always said, and everyone sort of agrees with this.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And so these injections, which were supposed to stay local, is it because that they didn't aspirate that they get into blood vessels? What is the reason why it gets through the entire system?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
I mean, literally everyone, even people that think that the election was 100 percent legitimate. the percentage of voter fraud is never zero, correct? And they're always like, yes. No one can say it's zero. It's not zero. There's a bunch of slippery people that get arrested on both sides of the aisle. Republicans and Democrats get arrested for election fraud. It's a real crime.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And that seems so straightforward that I can't imagine that they were showing people doing it any other way on television.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Even when they did the president. Remember when they injected him on television? Stuck it right in there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Are you suggesting that that was deception and they didn't give him this lifesaving vaccine?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
I don't think so. I suggested it back then and I got called a kook. But I was talking about... There was a lot of people that were talking about being injured, and they were getting attacked. Remember when they were going after Eric Clapton? Yeah. Remember that one? Oh, yeah. That was horrific. I mean, full-bore attacks on Eric Clapton. I mean, calling him the most hurtful words, an anti-vaxxer.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
He's always been a terrible person. I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And how can you rationalize continuing to have these companies exempt?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
It doesn't make any sense. Yeah. Especially if they're that profitable. Because we know that if they're profitable, they're going to keep selling stuff.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
The idea that they commit all these other acts of fraud and deception, but when it comes to elections, Brett, that's a sacred institution that we don't violate at any cost.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. Yeah, because there's just too much room for fuckery and profit. When they know that something is profitable and they know they can get away with it because they don't have any liability at all, they're going to fuck with you. They're going to gaslight you. They always have because you have two different types of people, right, that are involved in any kind of medication.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
You have the scientists and the clinicians that develop these things and create these things, and then you've got the money people. And the money people, they're not even scientists. What those people are interested in is making the most amount of money for their company. In fact, they have... A responsibility to their shareholders. Right. To make a ton of money. Absolutely.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
To make more money every year. So if they know that they can get it, it's their job as CEO to push that shit through. Why do you have all those connections and all those relationships if you don't utilize them to help our company? Isn't that why you get a fucking gigantic salary every year as a CEO of a pharmaceutical drug company? Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And don't you understand the relationship that we have with the FDA and the CDC has been – we have cultivated this relationship forever. So we have a revolving door to make it nice and easy. So the people that are in charge of regulation, they get a nice sweet job, a nice sweet golden – we got it locked in. We got it locked up. Let's sell this shit. Sell it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. Anything, anything across the board. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's just bizarre that we let that slip through because they had decided at one point in time that vaccines create so many problems. There's no way they could sell these and be profitable and have legal responsibility. And our government was like, all right, all right, no responsibility.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. Explain when this happened and how it happened to people so they understand that this is this is an issue that came up because of problems from vaccines.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yes, which is right now pretty fucking insane. There's so many of them. They give them to them so quickly, like from the moment they're born. They want to bang them up with vaccines. And it's incredibly profitable. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
People who are kind people, who are intelligent people, would never imagine there are human beings that are willing to profit off of injecting babies with things that may very well fuck them up for the rest of their life. They're like, there's no way. No one's that evil.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Oh, well, you look at just the history of vaccines themselves. You read turtles all the way down or dissolving illusions. You're just like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Right. What? What happened? Because all our lives... Vaccines are the most important invention. Vaccines saved countless millions of lives. Vaccines are the way we can be safe today.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So that was one of the dirtiest tricks about this mRNA technology, that they piggybacked on an old word that already had pass. It already had a hall pass.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But wait a minute, because isn't allergies have always existed and they existed before even vaccines.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
There's nothing in the literature about vaccine or about allergies before vaccines.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
No. Sometimes dogs are, but dogs get vaccinated to high heaven too.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Have you seen that they're calling for a ceasefire in Gaza so that they can vaccinate for polio? Yes, I have seen that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
You're going to not blow people up temporarily so they can keep them from a disease? Do you know the statistics of when people get polio, how much of polio is asymptomatic? Do you know the statistics?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
I was going to give you the number. It's 95 to 99% asymptomatic.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
I had read this thing that was connecting DDT as well.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Lots of cases of it in rural areas where people sprayed...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But have you seen in New York City, they're spraying pesticide in the sky to kill the mosquitoes that might be carrying the West Nile virus?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Mosquitoes. They're spraying pesticide. They're letting people know, we will be spraying at 8 p.m. Stay inside. Limit your exposure to the pesticide. And they're driving trucks down the street that are just spraying pesticide. So we don't learn. Right. And isn't that disease, West Nile virus, isn't that like 80% of the people, it's almost nothing?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, not only that, they've established this narrative that it's imperative that the Democrats win to save democracy. Right. So the Verdi made all of these statements that it's more important for them to win than anything. More important than anything. More important than having primaries. More important than letting the people decide who the representative is.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And so I've been looking to find the videos of them spraying that shit in New York City because it's it's very Orwellian. It's very like, how do we not how do we not know to not do this anymore? Like this seems like a crate. Look, they're driving down the street spraying. Look, there's mosquitoes. We got to kill them. So they're spraying at the back of this fucking truck.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
By the way, you're not killing anything. You're killing what's on that street. What about what's in between the houses? What's in the fields? What's in the park? What's at the lake where they all breed?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Six confirmed cases. We need to start spraying. One of them was Dr. Fauci. Right. He was hospitalized, Brett.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
More important than having live actual conversations, interviews that aren't edited on CNN. Instead, they have a 40-plus minute one that's edited down to 18 minutes. Like, what? Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, and then look at a guy like Fauci, who was one of the rare few that was hospitalized, and he's had six shots, according to him.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
We're also recommending it to people that already have natural immunity, which is the most bizarre thing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
The most bizarre, because there's no science that backs that up. It doesn't make any sense, and yet we're still saying to these people, you've got to get your boosters. This IgG4? IgG4. IgG4. What does that stand for?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And why does this, what is it about the mRNA shots that causes this to happen?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
We just know measurably people who have more of them have this.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But was there any literature that indicated that this was going to have this effect before they rolled out the vaccines, or was this just an unfortunate byproduct?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
It doesn't make any sense, and it's one of those things, again, that you're forced into agreeing with just out of fear because people get very aggressive with it, just like people were super aggressive about the vaccine. I hate seeing people – die because they made a poor choice.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So if weapons manufacturers were involved in the creation of a virus... What, especially a virus like a respiratory virus that could go across the entire population of the planet and did, what would be the use of something that only kills old people and overweight people?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
You're saying it's bioweapons research that created this virus, but not that the virus was actually a bioweapon.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But there's something insane about how many people were like pro-vaccine advocates that were shaming people and angry at people. And now they're dead. And they're not dead because they ran their time and they got old and they died. And it's unfortunate, but it happens to all of us. No, they're dead young. Like a lot, a lot of people, not one, not 20.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. So the Wuhan lab was a Chinese-based weapons lab, bioweapons lab?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And also the fact that this funding was stopped in 2014 by the Obama administration, but then Fauci restarted it under the Trump administration. And there's no... There's no specified goal in terms of, like, what's the positive benefit for society if this research is done. There's a huge possibility that it leaks, and it's incredibly detrimental, which it did.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But there's also, even though they were working on this stuff for so long, there was no cure whatsoever. For COVID? For the thing that they created.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So if you're going to create something that could potentially damage the human race, so you're worried about what would happen if there really was a natural spillover, and this thing really did come through a pangolin or whatever the fuck it did, and then got into people, we need to figure out a way to save people. But there's no solution.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
They were working on this stuff forever, and they didn't have a solution.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And the way you would use ivermectin is upon initial infection, it's very quickly you give it to people? Yeah. So there's a certain point in time where after the infection it's not going to be effective anymore?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
We don't even know what the real numbers are because it's not something the mainstream media covers because they've all been vaccinated, too. And they're probably freaking the fuck out, too.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, don't you think the most obvious answer would be there was a pathway to extreme wealth? If you're going to have a vaccine that is paid for by the government, not only that, the government profits off of, right? So they own patent, right? They own a piece of Moderna, right? So they sold these vaccines to themselves, essentially. They made incredible money.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
amounts of them, they distributed them all over the world, insane amount of profit, and then forced people to take them, and then ignored all evidence that there was other medications. In fact, demonized those medications publicly, like what they did on CNN.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
That's the demon showing its eyes, what they did on CNN and all those networks when they were talking and calling it horse dewormer, despite the fact that it had won the Nobel Prize for use in humans. All that stuff, the most obvious answer would be profit because you look at the amount of money that was generated. How much money did they make? How much money was generated by Pfizer? Let's ask.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Let's take a guess. How much money do you think was generated by Pfizer and Moderna between 2021 and 2023, which is like the peak years where people are taking it? It's kind of tough to talk people into taking it now, but there's a bunch of believers, and I follow a few of them on Twitter, that are all in. Take a guess. How much money do you think they made?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
2021 and 2023. I think 2023 was the first year it really dropped off.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
I'm going to guess between the two of them, I want to say $90 billion. That's what I want to say. That's my guess.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
How much up? Okay, let me try again. $200 billion. It's a little over $100 billion.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. So over $100 billion. Yeah, but that ain't nothing. That's a lot of money.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
It's not? Not. But you don't think that's enough money for them, first of all? I don't think it's what they were targeting. You have this wonderful thing called the emergency use exemption, right? Yeah. And the only way to allow people to get away with the emergency use exemption is you have to have some sort of proof that nothing else works. Yeah, I know.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
If you have another effective medication, you don't get emergency use authorization, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, did an episode of news radio with him. Super nice guy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Let's pause real quick because I have to pee and we'll come back right into that because I want to know the whole thing and I can't be thinking what happened. I totally get it. All right. We'll be right back. All right. And we're back. So we were at the emergency use authorization. Yeah. And you think that that wasn't necessary and they could have gotten it through anyway.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But doesn't that also make sense that the emergency use authorization would have to be in place in order for them to implement this? Because you're always going to, like you said, the lack of a control, right? If everybody gets vaccinated, you don't know what the hell happened. You blame it on COVID, which is why people who have been hit with the shots say they have long COVID.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But if you have no emergency use authorization and then people are allowed to make their own decisions and doctors are allowed to make their own decisions, there's a lot of – it's way easier to do it with this emergency use authorization. It's way easier to slip it through.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And the only way you could stop that is if all of a sudden – so emergency use authorization is supposed to only exist if there's not – some sort of a medication that currently exists that treats it, right? Otherwise, you're going to have to go through all the trials if there's another medication that exists.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So you demonize the medications, you sneak it through, you make everybody take it, therefore you lose the control, and now you've got this platform rolled out. Do you think that they didn't know to the extent of the damage that it was going to cause? I think they knew. You think they knew it was going to harm that many people?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
I see what you're saying. But the most important thing was rolling out this platform.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, they don't even want to consider the vaccine, which is so crazy. If you called it anything else, if it wasn't called the vaccine, if it wasn't for covid. OK, let's because covid became so it became so politicized. And it was like culturally so polarizing. Let's pretend it was for something else.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And so – Do you think that the blowback from all of this and the amount of people that are reporting vaccine injuries and the amount of discussion that's happening, especially online, about these things makes it more difficult for them to roll out that platform for other things?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And there was some medication and the people that were taking that medication were dropping like flies. They would 100% make a correlation and they would make it publicly and it would be in the news. Of course, it might not actually be in the news today because this is part of the problem with what we're dealing with, with advertising and the media.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
The only way you're going to develop new novel medications that are effective is commerce. You're going to have to have people profiting off of them, which is why they fund them. It costs a lot of money under the current climate. If you have FDA approval, it costs billions of dollars to achieve that. So you need people to be able to make money.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
is that there's so much revenue that comes from pharmaceutical drug companies that there's just a reality about them reluctant to print or put any stories on television that are negative.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But isn't people making money off these medications the real reason why stuff like this happens in the first place?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
When you say rare, what percentage do you think it is? 1%.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, I know. Isn't that funny? That was what was hilarious to me during the pandemic was people that were clearly not physically healthy saying that the only way that you could be healthy was to take this medication. That, to me, was bizarre. It was so bizarre because they weren't even considering taking care of their body.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
They were only considering taking this medication as if taking care of your body was foolish. Right. Which is so weird. Like when I had Hotez on, he was talking about his diet. I remember that. He's like, what do you eat? Do you ever work out? He eats junk food. He eats junk food and blasts himself with vaccines. Yeah. It's nuts. It's nuts.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. I mean, just the contradictory statements over the years and his stance on vaccines when Trump was president, his stance on the mRNA platform when Trump was president versus the immediate 180 that he took once Biden took an office.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
I think it's two. It's number two. It's the latter. With a little bit of number one that is necessary in order to be number two. I think if you're a part of a system and it's really important that you support all the people above you in the system and that you all work together and you're a good company man, you'll find profound ways to justify the things that you're saying.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And especially if you can use some science-y kind of talk and talk about diseases and inflate people dying and inflate numbers and inflate this and that. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Which is why they attacked me so hard. They don't want someone healthy. Get over it real quick and say, hey, you know me. I work out all the time. By the way, got over it real quick. That's how I did it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Absolutely. Yeah, there was no comforting people, no telling people, listen, it's not nearly as bad as we thought it was going to be. You're going to be fine. They didn't want to contribute to vaccine hesitancy because they wanted that money to keep rolling in. And the number, I mean, just the shift in that, imagine if they did.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Do you think in the future we'll look back on this and there'll be some sort of a shift in the way we discuss it? You know, there's a lot of things in history that during the time where they were happening, I'm sure people were all like the McCarthy era. Yeah. I'm sure people thought it was very important to root out these communists. But they didn't exactly understand.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Imagine if right away they said, you know what, this is not nearly as bad as we thought it was going to be, the way Bill Gates talks about it now. It actually mostly affected older people and people who are very vulnerable. Those are the people that really affected it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
The amount of profit they would have made would have been significantly less, and the enthusiasm for the platform would have been significantly less.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But it's also the weird thing was, especially now because of Zuckerberg's recent statement, we now know for sure that what he was saying was that they were pressuring them to remove COVID-19 information that turned out to be true. So the government was involved in this whole thing because the government was probably being pressured by the pharmaceutical drug companies.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So what's worst case scenario in your mind? With all the competing factors that are happening right now, what's worst case scenario?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
They're loyal. They're lovable. Just having Marshall around can make my day ten times better. I'm sure you love your dog just as much, and you want to do your best to help them live longer, healthier, happier lives. And a healthy life for your dog starts with healthy food, just like it does for us. There's a reason having a balanced diet is so important.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Like, hey, you're calling a lot of people communists. They aren't even communists. You're going after people that just went to meetings to find out what's going on. The world didn't exactly understand what that even meant back then. We look back at it now. The Red Scare is like a negative thing. It's a dangerous sort of negative aspect of our history.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And what would be the way they would go about doing that?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
The First Amendment's dangerous. The Constitution's dangerous. Don't you see? Is it dangerous? They pose the question.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
How many FBI agents do you think are going to show up?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, violence is very different than sport. Yeah, good. Combat sports, violence is just a part of it. They're some of the nicest guys you ever want to meet.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
It competes for federal contracts. It has some advantages in the competition for federal contracts. And all of the profits go to Alaska natives. And it is finding itself in a very difficult situation. to navigate battle because of all of the successes of DOGE. So the Alaska Native Corporation is utilizing something called the 8 program.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
The 8 program is a program that gives advantages to disadvantaged people. And at some point, that ability to use the 8 program was granted to Alaska Native corporations. Well, the 8 program is now under attack by some large corporations, federal contractors who do not like competition from things like Alaska Native Corporations, and it is being portrayed as if it was based on race, which it isn't.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
It's mind-boggling, and there's also... And I have to say I'm just – I'm upset at the general pattern of a failure to recognize how right those of us who hypothesized that there was a racket that had overtaken our entire governance structure. We turn out to be absolutely right about this and no one's going to mention it? That's ridiculous.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Anybody can use it. It's not a race-based program. But because people are in a mood to dismantle all of this left-wing solution-making corruption, These mega corporations are finding it easy to target the 8 program and they are persuading members of Congress that it doesn't belong.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And this is going to be a tragic loss if this program, which works well, is dismantled in the fervor to go after all of the stuff that should never have been.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
It provides a mechanism for disadvantaged people to compete for grants. It's really not race-based.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
No. No, no. So they're two separate things. Alaska Native corporations are for Alaska Natives.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Exactly. We bought it for 50 bucks from the Russians. And then after the discovery of oil in Prudhoe Bay, the U.S. government realized that it could not afford to give the natives of Alaska... sovereign land rights because it was going to need to do things like put a pipeline to transport oil.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So instead of giving them reservations and sovereign land rights, it gave them some abilities to compete for federal contracts as Alaska Native corporations. So it's an interesting program that does a lot of good. But its connection to the 8 program now has the good that it does in jeopardy. And I don't know how many stories there are like that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But we need to be careful that our excitement about watching all of this nonsense torn apart doesn't cause us to tear apart things that actually are functioning well and don't suffer from the defects of the DEI madness.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Oh, that I couldn't tell you. That I couldn't tell you. We could look into it. It's easy to look up. It's the 8A program.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I do. Is this Grok? Is that what you're looking at there? Is that what that is?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So I'm not in a position to answer detailed questions about 8A. But what I would say is there are some good things. There are quite a number of success stories that this is exactly what we want for disadvantaged people.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. Not only a social safety net, but something that provides an opportunity. Hey, build a business. Right. This is what we want you to do. This is the mythology of our system. You know, pull yourself out of your disadvantaged state.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So anyway, we should we should be interested in maintaining those programs. At the same time, we find the stuff that's actual nonsense and get rid of it as quickly as possible. And that's going to be a delicate balance. So far, we're so we're early in this process and you're going to have, you know, big wins like the revelations about USAID.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But the day will come soon enough when we're talking about discussions where we actually have to do a cost-benefit analysis on the programs that are targeted.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, you may remember years ago, I used to say that I want to live in a country so good that I get to be a conservative. I'm a liberal because there's a lot of problems with the way our system works. But the objective of all of that progressivism ought to be a system that doesn't require intervention in that way, in which everybody does have access to the market.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And so people really can be responsible for You know, lifting themselves out of whatever.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
A fair system in which everybody starts out with the tools that allow them to take advantage of the market. That's great. And I want a system in which lazy people don't have money to spend and are motivated to become unlazy. Yeah. I don't want people profiting from destroying opportunities that belong to other people.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But if we had a system that was like that and everybody had the tools to utilize it, then we should want as little intervention as possible.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
It just feels different, I have to tell you. I don't know what's coming, but it's at least delightful not to know what to think. The cynicism that was required to understand what was going on two months ago is now no longer required. You actually have to think about... what you're told is coming down the pike and think, well, I don't know, is that a solution?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
As a cover story? I'm not even sure. Maybe it doesn't change anything. Obviously, this was a mechanism used to funnel money to all sorts of things that... We didn't vote on that don't make sense in light of our constitutional structure. And I'm you know, I obviously have concerns like everybody else about where this train takes us. But seeing that structure broken up is it's a huge relief.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Is it a negotiating tactic or is it a solution that's actually being proposed and would it work?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I have to say, I almost feel like it was worth the price of admission right there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, I am not a fan of Netanyahu's, as you probably know. My sense is that the relationship of Netanyahu to the Israeli population is more or less like the Biden administration to the U.S. population.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And this just so happened to put him back in charge. But in any case, to see him back on his heels again. That was a good sign. Now, I am, of course, concerned about the idea of – I'm not even sure I know what I heard, right? We're going to make Gaza into – It's going to be the Riviera of the Middle East. That was a pretty good impression.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
100%. And then I don't know if you caught Alex Soros reposting this claim that basically you have an unelected cabal wielding power. That's you.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, no, it's a very, very strange historical moment.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, I mean, again, you know, I said a lot of stuff over the years about the fact that our civilization had become a racket and the fact that we were living in the era of malignant governance and that basically I'm concerned as somebody who believes in good governance that
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
that there's almost no component of this that you couldn't remove and create an improvement, that that's not a message you want. I want a message in which we govern as lightly as possible, but we do it really, really well. And an era in which you can cut off any limb and the patient gets healthier, that teaches the wrong lesson about governance.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
It teaches the lessons that governance was a mistake to begin with, which it wasn't. Right. So...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, let's be honest about what the conservatives had right from the get go. there are problems that only competition solves. There are other problems that competition in something like a market is not well positioned to solve, but there's certain problems that there's no second best. It's only competition that works. And so when we talk about, well, what are we going to do for fact-checking?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
We're going to abandon the idea of fact-checking. What you want is is a vibrant, independent journalist sector in which people who spot the story early and people who articulate the story in the most intuitive and accurate way outcompete those who do a worse job. So that over time, what we get is journalism that you can't
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And that it reveals to us which government programs actually work, even if they don't sound reasonable at first glance. Here's what's really going on behind the scenes in this program. Right. And then journalism that exposes any kind of fraud. And I don't know about you, but as I was watching confirmation hearings.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
My sense was that the Elizabeth Warrens and the Bernie Sanders were dinosaurs who do not understand that the earth has just been hit from outer space and that they don't live in the world that they are so used to. That their corruption was immediately apparent. And they're not used to that. They're used to having a whole phony journalistic layer that covers for them.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And that layer is gone and the American public is awake and it's angry and rightfully so. And now it looks at Bernie Sanders who, you know, I remember the first time you and I spoke, you and I had both been Sanders supporters. And now to see that same guy again.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And that's exactly how this racket worked is that the ability to tax the American public and then effectively get us to pay for being propagandized, for being surveilled, that's the game. Yeah. I don't know what era we currently live in. Obviously, there's a lot that's confusing about what the Trump administration is up to.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Going after Bobby Kennedy and, you know, the feeble excuse, well, what if Bobby Kennedy becomes the head of HHS and people don't have access to prescription drugs? And it's like, dude, I just lived through COVID. It's not obvious to me that they wouldn't get healthier if they didn't have access to prescription drugs.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Do you realize how corrupt those companies are and how nonsensical their science is, the science that says that you actually get better if you take a statin based on some metric in your chart, right? So I'm not arguing that there aren't good pharmaceuticals. There undoubtedly are. But what's the net effect of our pharmaceutical-obsessed medical culture? It's not obvious to me that it's positive.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I think it may well be negative. And so anyway, again, I see Bernie Sanders and I see him reading from a script that is no longer relevant to the movie we're watching.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yes, and that is the tip of the iceberg. We do not have, just as we don't have a journalistic layer that exposes people in Congress who are lying to us and aspects of the government that are corrupt, we don't have a university system that can properly do science and can be relied on to tell us what the impact of a drug or a food additive is. is, right? The whole system is missing in action.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Everything that is supposed to evaluate something like safety or efficacy or analyze net effects, anything like that has been captured by the PR wing. And so the consumer is in no position to navigate a world like that. And we know that this encompasses everything. How many people's doctors are pharma-skeptical? Right. Your doctor should be very pharmaceutical.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I don't know that this drug is actually a benefit to you, but know that the doctors have become pushers.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. Almost all of the doctors who were any good found themselves chased out of a job or with jeopardy to their license or slandered in the media. And, you know, I'm sure you're in the same position. Those are frankly the only doctors I trust at this point were the ones who were willing to pay a price to tell me the truth.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
No, that should be your first question, Doc, is how did you do over COVID? Yeah. And if they have nothing interesting to say, I would just turn around and walk out the door.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, I find that bad, but at least I know how to interpret that. What I don't understand is what I'm supposed to do with the doctor who did recommend the shots has stopped recommending them and has not. Talked about it. Said something about the change in their perspective.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But I don't think any reasonable person could be unhappy that we are exiting that era.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
100%. It is a test of integrity. And you wouldn't want to go to a doctor that didn't have high integrity at a moment like this. Your doctor needs unusually high levels of integrity and what we've seen is unusually low levels. And the same thing with social media influencers, as you called them.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Anybody in the public sphere should go back and they should do an accounting of what they said, what they thought, how they got there, how that played out in the end, when they changed their mind, and what they said about it publicly.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Right? I must say I'm constantly in a battle with the ultra cynics who claim to have gotten everything right during COVID because basically they never believe anything. It's not a method. You got lucky.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Right, you got lucky. You stumbled into a full con game. You stumbled into a con game, and yes, you didn't buy it, but that's not a demonstration that you know how to think through the next one. Right, correct. It doesn't demonstrate anything.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So what I really want are people who had a good track record and who know what mistakes they made and know how not to make them in the future. Those are the people that we should be paying attention to.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
A hundred percent. Yeah. Well, I think what we have seen over our, you and I are about the same age, what we have seen over our entire lifetime is that elections can change the jerseys, but they just swap, you know, who's in power and who's out of power. Well, the point is the system is in power and, you know, the people in the
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
The roles to deliver the speeches change, but they're just basically trading off. And so I have the sense that you and I are now watching the first the outcome of the first genuine election since 1963.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Right. And it changes the feel of this in two ways. One of them is just unfamiliar to us because we've been watching theater for our entire lives and being told that it was the transfer of power. And the other is that there's a lot of...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
pent up need for change because you've effectively had a cryptic power structure that never gets displaced, that has gotten so entrenched that rooting it out takes, frankly, an extraordinary, in every sense of the word, person like Donald Trump.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, so, you know, Heather and I took a lot of flack after the assassination, the first assassination attempt of Trump, where we both perceived, I think we were actually perceiving this before, but the assassination attempt really kicked it off. We perceived that this was a different person than the first administration's.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Trump, that he had matured and he had been forged by all of the lawfare that had been deployed against him and that it had been good for him. And in fact, I hate to say this because I have my doubts, of course, about the election of 2020, but I don't think what he is currently doing would have been possible if he had won and been inaugurated in 2020.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
coen brothers kind of apocalyptic movie a poorly written poorly directed movie yeah with you know an extraordinary budget and almost no need to pay attention to continuity it was weird it was bad
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Look, I know this to be true because, you know, I tried to spark Unity 2020 and make it work.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
It's going to be the poppy seeds for bagels, I'm thinking.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And they even lied about us. They said that we were engaged in inauthentic behavior. Basically, they accused us of using bots, which we didn't. So anyway, that's the world we were in in 2020. And headed to a more controlling world. Right. And then in 2024, you know, there's what I think of as a continuation of the same idea, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, I have to say, in addition to being just overarchingly worried about what was going to happen to the republic and to the globe, I was personally worried about what would happen to people like you and me if we lost. Yeah, probably wouldn't be so good for business.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
There's, you know, Rescue the Republic was what it looked like in 2024. And the point is that actually worked. That was an organic unity movement. And it took advantage of the fact that, you know, Maha had already catalyzed as Kennedy and Trump had gotten together. And so that was huge.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Extraordinary group of human beings, all of whom I think took very real risks. Oh, yeah. At the very least with their reputations.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And it was a gamble. Each of these people, you know, Kennedy, Musk, Tulsi, they knew that they were taking that risk. And it was clear that they were motivated by Tulsi. That they actually, I mean, this is what a soldier does, right? You know that you're taking risks for something that matters more than you.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And, you know, to watch Elon do it, I think, also was just remarkable because, of course, in Elon's position, he could have done, you know, what Zuckerberg does, right? And he could have... played it safe and kept his options open and done what he was told. And then, you know, apologize for it later, sort of. Right. That wasn't what Musk did. He actually had the courage of his convictions.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
A, as many people have noted, his liberation of X set the stage for this election to even happen, that there wasn't anything you could put over on us that we couldn't unpack and crowdsource a better interpretation of on X. And even if most people weren't on X, it was enough that their narrative engine just didn't work.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, yes, and USAID is, of course, riddled through whatever international madness it is that caused us to open our southern border and facilitate an invasion through the Darien Gap. So seeing that structure laid bare, it almost feels like it can't be real. It can't have been this close to the surface, and yet here we are.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yes, and I think it's a little bit deceptive because its size doesn't quite explain its impact. But it's a little bit like the higher reasoning centers of the brain. Like there's a collective consciousness in which we figure out what we think is true. And it's been downstream of this amazing propaganda engine.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, we're now learning to spot the propaganda and to understand what it really means and to figure out what it's cloaking. And a lot of that is happening on Twitter because it can. And it's actually forcing, you know, Facebook to come around, right? Right. There's no pressure to start doing that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But once you have one, any social media platform that doesn't allow you to speak freely is at a competitive disadvantage. And so, you know, Elon freeing X actually liberated the others and they were beginning to move in the right direction, which frankly is part of why this era just feels different.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I am not informed. I am waiting for some sort of compelling evidence that something extraterrestrial is going on.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, I think you do have to wonder what the fuck is actually going on. On the other hand, I think there's a whole range of possibilities that don't involve anything extraterrestrial.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
You wouldn't... That would not be shocking. If there was something to cover, you might decide instead of trying to keep it under wraps, you would bury it in so much low-quality bullshit that nobody would be able to find it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Sounds right. I don't know the number offhand, but – What the fuck? Well, you have to realize that basically we had a shadow apparatus functioning and it involves all kinds of things. It involves payoffs to people who didn't deserve them. It involves contracting to entities that were necessary to get the work done.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, I must tell you, I'm skeptical that those vehicles are vehicles.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I'm having a deja vu moment here, or we've discussed this before. I don't know which it is, but the basic rubric is... Physical stuff displaces air, which means it makes noise when it moves. And I don't quite see the logic behind suppressing that fully. I don't see the capacity to suppress it fully. Who knows what I don't know. But my guess is if you had actual craft.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
moving around in the ways that people who have observed these things think they've seen it, that noise would be an inherent part of the phenomenon.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I'm not necessarily requiring engine noise. I'm requiring- Air noise, passing through the air.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Passing through the air noise that as the air collapses, as the craft moves, the air collapses behind it, that you'd hear something. You mean when it's moving fast? Yes, especially if it's moving fast.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So this is exactly my problem, is there's two realms. There's a realm in which I understand the physics of the universe enough that I can evaluate that claim, and then I can say, well... It's not obvious to me how you go through the water. The water has to be displaced. And water is denser than air in terms of how much matter there is, how many particles there are.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And therefore, it ought to be harder to move through than air. I would expect noise in the air. I would expect something similar in the water. And the fact that these things behave in a couple of different ways. One, they're silent. Two, they turn in ways that would challenge a biological critter profoundly. Three, they move at speeds that are improbable in light of what we understand.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Now, I'm not saying there can't be lots of stuff we don't understand. But what I'm saying is all of those things have a simplest explanation, which is that that craft isn't matter. It's a projection.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So I don't think we can properly understand what these numbers mean and what they're actually being used for. But it was a racket.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, that I believe we have. I'm not expert in it, but you can project from above or below onto material. It could even, I think, be done in clear skies, right? Especially if you had a substrate, and I don't know whether to go down this road. Let's go down that road. What do you mean? Well, there seems to be a certain amount of experimentation with particles being projected
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
released from aircraft for some reason. I would assume and have long assumed that there is experimentation with altering the albedo of the Earth so it reflects more light back into space.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. And I don't think, you know, one of the things that we many of us came to understand during COVID about proposals is that very often the proposal comes after the experiments have already begun. Right. You propose an experiment that you've already done and then recoup your your investment when the grant is given.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So anyway, I believe that there's been some experimentation with releasing particles. I think it's an insane experiment to run. It's diabolical, frankly. You have no right to alter the Earth's atmosphere without us at least having a global public discussion about the consequences. I believe this is an informed consent violation and that I take those things very seriously.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Those were hanging offenses at the end of World War II. But nonetheless, if you drop particles into the atmosphere, those particles are largely not visible, right? They have impact. But could they be used to project a craft that wasn't onto a substrate you can't quite see? I don't know.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, let's put it this way. First of all, there are always particles, even if what we're talking about is air.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So let's just say, first of all, this is where I would want a robust university system and a robust journalistic system to dig. Because there's a lot you need to know that you could figure out that would tell us whether or not what we're looking at are really distant craft moving at tremendous speeds or it's an optical illusion. Let me just give you an example.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
You wouldn't necessarily know how far away the object was and therefore you wouldn't necessarily know how fast it was moving. You'd misjudge it. And to give everybody an example that they will have familiarity with. I was driving down the highway at one point. Rainstorm, but the sun was shining and I saw a rainbow. And I've thought a lot about rainbows. They're pretty interesting.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And I realized that I could tell that although the rainbow looked to be 10 miles from me or something like that, it was actually feet from me. And I could tell that because the rainbow came down onto the road and I could see it in front of the guardrail. Continuous rainbow where the parts up here look like they're closer to the mountains in the distance.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But when I see where it's continued down into the spray off the road, it's actually 10 feet away, right? So the mind is building a model of stuff. And if you give it the wrong cues, it'll totally misunderstand the distance that it's looking at. To the extent that a rainbow is at a distance, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So if you had a robust journalistic apparatus, what it would want to do is figure out, well, if person A was standing in location X and they saw a craft moving at what appeared to be 200 miles an hour, at a distance of five miles, then the question is, well, who else would have seen it? And if we go and we ask people who were standing in those locations, did they see it at all?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Because if they didn't, then maybe the thing was inches away from the person being projected locally, right? And they only felt like they saw something at a great distance.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, I'm going to share credit with Ben Davidson for this, but the basic point is PSYOP until proven otherwise. And PSYOP until proven otherwise, I think, is a very functional way to approach this because...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Depending upon what kind of program we're looking at, and there obviously is governmental involvement in whatever it is, either concealing real stuff or pretending that it has real stuff that it's pretending to conceal or whatever it's doing. There is every possibility that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
There are sort of layers of awareness, and at the bottom layer, there may not be anything alien at all, but it may be that people fairly close to the center have been shown something I mean I don't understand what the purpose of any of this stuff is either.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Talk to us about the aliens and when they started to visit and what it is they seem to want and whether they're still here and whether they're going to be back and whatever we know. That's what I would do. Any excuse that says the public can't handle it I think is just nonsense.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But I have to say, as much as this is shocking... I wasn't surprised. I thought that effectively our entire system had been turned into a racket and that we were basically being fed a cover story from it. And it's weird to now have the evidence of this, but...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
All right. Well, as long as we're just sort of fantasizing about wild stuff here, imagine that Donald Trump were to be elected president for a second time and he was pissed off and he was to nominate Tulsi Gabbard for the director of national intelligence. And then she was only...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
hours or at most days away from being confirmed by the Senate, then when she gets in, presumably she wouldn't have investment in all of those years of lying about this. And she might feel obligated to tell us in the public what the hell's going on.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
100%. Also, you know, we've got Elon on a separate track. He's going through the books and finding all of the nonsense. And so presumably the effort to hide whatever it is, either to manufacture the impression of UFOs or to hide what we know about them, that's going to have a budget somewhere.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So there is the question of what they were trying to distract us from, if that was their purpose. But I also find, this is again... become a kind of theme in my life. This is also a violation of informed consent.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I think it was apparent that whatever had taken over our system wasn't interested in the well-being of average people, that it was interested in the power of the state to take people's resources and redistribute them, and that that really is what's been going on for most of our adult lives.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
If those were our drones and they were nightly traumatizing the residents of New Jersey and pretending they didn't know what it was, that's a de facto experiment that they were running on the citizens of the country. They have no right to do this shit.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I, you know, one doesn't know until you see this stuff enacted where it's going to lead. But my sense is I don't want my government lying to me ever again with the excuse that it's for my own good.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, that is, in fact, exactly what we have discovered. And why it was so hard to convince people of this before the evidence for it emerged, I don't know. But all you needed to realize was that some rogue element had decided that it had the right to engage in the same kind of regime change bullshit domestically that it was already feeling entitled to engage in globally.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And the rest makes perfect sense. And of course, you would get an entrenched cabal that would come up with a justification for fending off a challenge at the ballot box that it could portray as somehow a threat to American democracy. Of course, it would do that. Right. It has to be forbidden to do that. And the penalties have to be extreme for attempting it or it will happen.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, yes, but I also am not sure that I buy the international rationale either. And I think as much as I understand it, right, we have to be mature about what's possible in the world and what implications it has for the republic. On the other hand, to the extent that we believe in self-determination, where exactly does our right to interfere with other people's self-determination come from?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Further, I do think that there's a kind of end state for the governance structures of Earth. That what we have in the West, an agreement on a level playing field, an agreement to compete with each other by attempting to produce better stuff rather than by interfering with our competitors' ability to get to the market, that that view of the West is
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
is superior and it is also contagious, that it makes for a safer, more rewarding, fairer less warlike system. And therefore, there's a very good reason for people to want to adopt it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, I'm not arguing that you just go and live your values. What I'm arguing is that those values are superior, that they are sticky and contagious when they take hold, and that anything you do where you compromise on the idea that that's the objective – is to get Western values to catch on across the world.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Anytime you decide you have a right to do something else, you're dragging us onto a slippery slope, okay? You will disrupt other people's self-determination, you have no basic right to do it, and it will eventually come home and be done to us.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So I don't know what the sophisticated way to make it maximally likely that other societies take on those values is, but I know that it was happening organically without us having to do terribly much. And so the real question is, how do we make that a winner so that it organically catches on, and how do we reinforce it when it does?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I am loosely paying attention to the AI competition. I'm conflicted about it. I don't think there's anything we can do to regulate AI competition that doesn't make matters worse. I'm very concerned about the outgrowth of...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
This transformative technology, I think even the most mundane disruptions that will come from it, things like disruptions to the job market, are going to be a profound challenge to our society, and we're going to have to come up with an approach that allows us to tolerate the disruption.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
There's that, but I must say on my darker days, I had concerns even beyond that. You probably should. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yes, it was an overdue reaction. The cover story that what we were up to was writing past wrongs was so pernicious and pervasive that it was hard to get our footing to challenge it. But it shouldn't really be surprising that that movement wasn't organic. Of course it was induced. It was a cover story for theft. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, let's talk about the ultimate source of this problem. Our ancestors were our hunter-gatherer ancestors, even our farming ancestors, lived in a world where The world itself provided the incentive structure, right? If you didn't work hard enough as a hunter-gatherer, it manifested as hunger and jeopardy. So people were naturally incentivized to invest in the right kind of stuff.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And the right kind of stuff is hard work in some cases where, you know, you pursue the materials that make your hut better, that procure more food for your family. Or it could be insight. where you figure out some way to do something better, so you make more with what you've already figured out how to get. That's a very natural structure, and it's what we neurologically are built for.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
The economy has some of that characteristic. The economy rewards hard work somewhat, and it rewards insight somewhat. But it also rewards cheating, and it rewards lots of unproductive behavior that actually destroys wealth but creates a profit.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. For example, it rewards gambling. It rewards interference, competition, all sorts of stuff. You know, destroying wealth is actually a big part of our economy. And the way the mythology of free market capitalism works, you're getting paid for producing stuff that enhances us all. But what fraction of the economy is actually dedicated to activities that destroy wealth?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
The production of porn, for example. In my opinion, that is highly likely to destroy vastly more wealth than it produces. But it's a very rich industry for a reason. What I'm getting at is we have a new problem with the AI component. Maybe it's taken the magnitude of the problem that we had and it's multiplied it by 10. But it's not a new problem.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
We are still trying to figure out what to do with the fact that you're taking an animal and Out of the habitat that properly inherently incentivizes it and putting it into an environment in which the incentives aren't really well built. And I agree with you.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Whatever sympathy I may have had for the idea of universal basic income is gone because I do think it would produce at best a kind of learned helplessness.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Right. So what we really want is a system in which whatever the new opportunities are going to be in the world where AI is available everywhere and very sophisticated, we want people to figure out how to leverage it on our behalf.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And mind you, we could have the same conversation before the World Wide Web, and we could talk about, well, what's it going to be like when you can source information from anywhere? What kinds of opportunities is that going to create? And can we incentivize people to figure out what those opportunities are? Yada, yada, yada.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So the AI version is the same problem, but at a different order of magnitude. So I don't know what the solution is about how you create that proper incentive structure, but we are going to be living in a world in which meaning and wealth are of a fundamentally different nature.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And we're going to be waking up to the magnitude of that theft for quite some time.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And what we want is for people to have the tools and the incentive to explore that world productively so that when they do it well... They end up economically enhanced. And when they do it poorly, they suffer a challenge so that they are naturally led by that world to find stuff that creates wealth for all of us. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Hell yeah. But again, this is another version where it's not like AI is – bad fit for the education system it certainly is but the education system has been garbage my whole life existed with an education system that was almost totally worthless and in some cases was counterproductive which is I think why Some of us folks with learning disabilities actually turn out to have an advantage.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
It's not that there's something good about having a learning disability, but if it breaks your relationship to school so school has less of an easy time programming you to be a cog, then you at least retain the potential to be something other than a cog.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, I'm really glad you're telling me this because back when I was a college professor before 2017, since I was a terrible student myself, I was fascinated by the students who had really high potential but were just not a good fit for school. So I was really interested in what made people smart, especially when it had nothing to do with school or happened in spite of school.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And your story fits perfectly here, in fact. What you describe is sort of the equivalent of a learning disability, right? Like suspicion that your teachers aren't all that and maybe you're not so thrilled at sitting there listening to them. Occasionally it sounds like you had a teacher who was pretty good.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Wasn't terrible. But for the rest of the time, you know, school was so busy dismissing me as, you know, not performing to potential was what it said every time on my report card, right? That it was just really demoralizing. And I remember sort of in the second grade... having a kind of choice.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I didn't know what it was that I was choosing between, but it was like, I can either surrender to their understanding of who I am, or I can stop respecting them. And so it created an attitude problem. Sounds like you had a similar attitude problem. And I wish I could give every student that attitude problem.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, but you also – I'm skeptical. That the vast wealth of information is inherently a good thing. Really? Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Because I know, like I said, I became very interested in what made people smart. And what made people smart was not libraries. What made people smart was an interaction with the world that rewarded them when they figured something out. And very often that was the physical world.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So one of the things I worry about with a kid who maybe is not getting so much out of school but they have access to an entire world of fascinating things on their computer is that it turns all of that stuff into an exercise in consuming information. rather than discovering. And so I would much rather see kids have access to a
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
you know, a wild world, a forest that's intact where they can go and discover things and those things aren't labeled and you don't know what it is and you don't know what it means. Or, you know, you try to build a structure, a tree house or something, and it tests your understanding of what the structure is, you know, that will hold you. And
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
That it is that feedback where you are not a consumer of the world, but you are a producer. You're interacting with the world rather than just seeing it represented. That is the most intellectually enhancing thing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Or not. I mean, unsafe enough that you develop sense, you know. But yes, I think ideally you would have access to both. So it would create the reward patterns in your mind that would cause you to think about how to be productive in the world. But I also think that the way the online world presents itself is strangely demotivating.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Because you see whatever social media platform you're on, you've got some 30-second clip of some person doing some utterly remarkable thing that I would have said until I saw it with my own eyes was impossible. That doesn't create a pathway to discovering what the person in question can do. What you're looking at is somebody whose abilities outstrips what almost anybody can do.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
OK, so this is something I saw yesterday. Guys riding down a ramp and launching themselves two or three stories into the air on a scooter and then turning around and dropping back onto the same ramp. You know, and of course, I think I saw Red Bull in there somewhere. Right. So it's like, first of all, you've got this corporation incentivizing people to take risks that aren't smart.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And then you've got an apparatus that you're not going to be able to build or approximate. And then you've got the person who leverages the apparatus better than anybody. And it's like, well, where's the opportunity for the viewer to be like, yeah, I want to I want to get in on that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, I think a Chuck Norris movie is probably a better tool. The admixture of people who are highly capable and people who get some of the thrill of the highly capable person just by viewing it is not as good as it might be. In other words, I think we've taken... all sorts of activities that people used to engage in. And we've found a consumable equivalent, right? Like sport.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
People used to play sports. Now most people who are into sports watch sports. They're consuming the sport rather than participating in it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Especially adults. Likewise, sex, frankly. Sex is a very important realm and it's a skill. The skill involves insight into your partner. And we've turned it into a consumable where you can chase your fetish or whatever and just watch it on a screen. And the point is that's actually not the same activity.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
That's where it goes. And, you know, if we take ourselves back, you know, a couple hundred years, music, music used to be something that people loved. did. Everybody sung and they whistled and many people played musical instruments. Now music is a consumable. And the point is the reward may be somewhat similar to listening to a really good song as it is to play a really good song on an instrument.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But the degree to which you've been robbed as a human being who is capable of producing music and you just, you don't have a thought of doing it because there's so much to listen to, that's not positive for humans.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, you know, when I was a professor, my thought was almost the entire job of education is about incentives. It's about incentives and motivation. It's not about delivering results. content. If you can get a student to want to understand something, most of the work is done, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So when I look at school, I can't believe how badly structured it is because the idea is effectively it's going to threaten you into learning something. That's not going to make it stick. It's not going to make you want to learn more. So my feeling is what you want is... you want to create a desire in the student to understand the thing, then your work is pretty well done, and then it's like play.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And if we took that approach to all of these things, So that you felt rewarded by producing music, even if it's very simple, right? Well, then you might pick up music for a lifetime and be generating it decades later, right? You should not be delivered a message about sex where sex is something that is supposed to be perfected.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
and therefore a person who's new to that realm feels inadequate and therefore is incentivized to abandon it and go watch it, there should be a recognition that actually this is something that you will develop over a lifetime and it's important that you do and you should want it because it's access to some of the most rewarding stuff there is. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So just getting getting the motivation built in the person so that they want to pursue it is all you really need.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, you're in the uncanny valley, and really what needs to happen in order that we don't reproduce the disaster of porn in 3D or 4D, it needs to become sophisticated to understand that you really don't want any part of that, even if it's very good, especially if it's very good.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, you know, I used to take a lot of flack as a prude. You? Yeah. Come on. Well, I'm not a prude. I'm really not. But I do take a very dim view of porn. It's like you're messing with something sacred and just don't, right? And, you know, porn isn't what you and I remember porn was when we were young, right? It's not pictures of naked girls. Right. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Instantaneously available. And it reaches almost everybody. Now. So anyway, I used to say very negative things about porn and I took a lot of flack over it. That is less and less true. I think people are beginning to realize how much damage it's doing to them, and there are a lot more people ready to acknowledge that whether or not they're in control of it in their own lives, they wish they were.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
They don't want it. I will say I have two boys, 18 and 20, and I believe neither of them is involving themselves with porn, and they report they aren't the only ones.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Right. When I think back to the video games that I played, which were, of course, you know, much cruder.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, when I was really young. When I was a kid in high school, I used to play Castle Wolfenstein on my Apple II. Remember that? Oh, yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But it was pretty cool. But here's the problem with it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yes. And I must say that there is also another aspect to this, which we have to be careful about, which is that the justifiable anger at discovering what it is that we've been dragged into as a nation is going to make it hard to see where the limits ought to be in terms of upending this stuff. In other words, at the moment, I'm cheering for the wrecking ball. Break this stuff up never again.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But think about, you know, a video game is an incredible tool for training the mind. Sure. Right? It trains you to just precisely time things, to have yourself in this mindset, to know exactly where you are in the game, to remember a sequence of moves, whatever it is. It's an incredible training engine because the incentive structure is there so that you want to get to the next level, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
It's like what schools should be doing except what does it train you to do?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
As soon as the next game captivates you, all of the skills that you invested in building are almost all wiped away. Now, maybe that's not quite true because all the first person shooters are the same. And so skills you develop in Halo work for I don't know what the others would be.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But nonetheless, the point is you're investing your ability to train your own mind into something that is guaranteed to be obsolete. That's not a good use of your time, even though I totally, you know, I did play video games.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But imagine that you decided to leverage that, that in fact, I mean, my feeling is school ought to look like a bunch of fun exercises and activities and puzzles that cause you to want to do it. It shouldn't have to be school. We shouldn't have to make you go. It should be structured so that you want to be there because it's exciting. It draws you in.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And so a video game, I'm not against them in principle because a video game could train you to do something or to think about something in some incredible way. But they just don't because the market is going to find the thing that brings in the maximum number of people and holds them to the greatest effect and causes them to want to buy the sequel.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Wisdom, I argue, is effectively delayed gratification. That, you know, figuring out that investment now, that doing something that doesn't feel good now results in a big reward later. That's a huge part of the key to life. And in part, that's what all of these consumer realms that are stealing from us are. are taking away.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
The point is, if you want to be investing in something and you're willing to pay the price of whatever unpleasantness or time or whatever it is that you're spending, and you've got all of these competing things that can give you a hit of dopamine right now, it's very hard to develop that skill.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
You know, Heather and I used to teach an exercise, something we invented called learn a skill, where we would have students define any skill that they wish to learn. It had only one requirement. The requirement was it had to be objective whether you had succeeded or failed. It couldn't be subjective, right? Okay. And the idea was not subjective.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
to get you to learn the skill, that was a collateral benefit. The idea was to get you to pay attention to how you develop a skill so that you would learn how your own mind learns and you could apply that to things that you wanted to learn later in life. But what we often found was that these students, these would have been millennials,
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
were very unrealistic about how much effort it would go, would be required for them to accomplish one of these things. And they would just get schooled by how much harder it was to build the thing they wanted to build or to program the computer to do the thing that they wanted to program it to do or to play the song that they were hoping to play.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Something had trained them that life was easier than it was. And that was kind of a tragic lesson.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yes, I think that's, A, I think we get a warped perspective because, you know, which names do you know? Well, you know the people who have succeeded in this realm, and you don't know all of the people who have invested heavily in it and not succeeded. Right. But on the other hand, the Internet as it stands is a training program for this. So in part, the reason...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
The reason that people become focused on the things that they become good at is because they get some early reward that causes them to return and try to do more. Right? Mm-hmm. But everybody is in these social media environments competing for likes. I mean, even just inadvertently, you don't want to put up a post and have nobody react to it. You hope they react and you hope they react positively.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So the Internet is training people to be influencers. Most of them are not going to make it. But, you know, it's like the sports stars who become the irresistible icons in certain communities because obviously that's important. You know, it's a whole different world of possibilities. So, you know, it brings everybody in.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, in this case, you've got everybody in a de facto training program to be an influencer and almost none of them are going to get there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
He said, well, he said a couple things. It was a little confusing. He said that, you know, we see evidence of adaptation, but we don't see evidence of evolution and that we've really gotten beyond the Darwinian model. We've essentially come to understand that it's not right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
It's an argument for intelligent design, I think. First of all, I want to clean up a little bit of what he said just so it's interpretable. I don't really think he means we see the evidence for adaptation but not evolution. That's not coherent. I think what he means is we see evidence for what we would call microevolution, but we don't see evidence for what we would call macroevolution.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
This is a... commonly believed thing in intelligent design circles. And so microevolution, we would talk about the way a creature or a population of creatures would change relative to their environment. If the environment gets drier, those individuals who are more drought tolerant will outcompete the individuals that require more water. And so we'll see the population change over time.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But, he's saying, we don't see evidence for macroevolution, which is the production of new species from old species. A monkey becoming a person. Yeah. We don't see big changes like that. Now- I don't want to bore your audience.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I am concerned that the right way to address Tucker's challenge, and as I said the last time I was on your show, when I heard him say it the first time, I reached out to him and I said, you know, you really ought to let me talk to you about what's actually going on here, and he welcomed it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
We still haven't sat down to do it, but nonetheless, he's open to hearing that he doesn't have it right, to his credit. But here's the problem. The correct response to Tucker, I do not believe, involves what most people want me to do in response to something like what Tucker said.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I think people want the. career evolutionary biologist to break out a bunch of examples from nature that make the case very, very clear so that they can relax. Tucker's concern isn't based in science, and they can go back to feeling comfortable that the Darwinists have it well in hand. That's not where I am. I could do that, but I don't feel honorable doing that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. The question is, how can we get a proper accounting, as you point out? Who the hell is factcheck.org?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I think as a scientist, I should not be in the business of persuading people. I want you to be persuaded. I want you to be persuaded by the facts. I want them to persuade you, but I don't think I'm allowed to persuade you. I think that it's effectively PR when I attempt to bring people over to Team Darwin.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Further, as I'm sure I've mentioned to you before, I'm not happy with the state of Darwinism in as it has been managed by modern Darwinists. In fact, I'm kind of annoyed by it. And although Tucker, I do not believe, is right in the end, there is a reason that the perspective that he was giving voice to is catching on in 2025.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And it has to do with the fact that, in my opinion, the mainstream Darwinists are telling a kind of lie about how much we know and what remains to be understood. So by reporting that, yes... Darwinism is true and we know how it works and people who aren't compelled by the story are illiterate or ignorant or whatever. They are pretending to know more than they do. So.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
All that being said, let me say I think modern Darwinism is broken. Yes, I do think I know more or less how to fix it. I'm annoyed at my colleagues for I think lying to themselves about the state of modern Darwinism. I think I know why that happened. I think they were concerned that a creationist worldview was always a threat that it would reassert itself.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And so they pretended that Darwinism was a more complete explanation as it was presented than it ever was.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
There are several different things that are wrong with it. The key one that I think is causing folks in intelligent design circles to begin to catch up is that the story we tell about how it is that mutation results in morphological change is incorrect.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
This is a very hard thing to convey, and I want to point out that if the explanation for creatures is Darwinian, that does not depend on anybody understanding it, and it does not depend on anybody being able to phrase it in a way that it's intuitive. Okay? I think I could probably do a decent job on those fronts, but if you happened onto the
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
A hundred million years ago, you would have found lots of animals running around, lots of plants growing. You would have recognized where you were and more or less what was going on. There's not a single creature on the planet that would have any idea what an abstract thought was. There would be no creature that had any inkling that there was even a question about where all this had come from.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And Darwinism would still be the answer. So somehow, whether Darwinism is the answer does not depend on anybody knowing it or being able to explain it. Here's the problem. Let's say that we went into the parking lot, and in one parking space there's an excavator, and in the next parking space over is a Maserati.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Now let's say we took those two machines and we tore them apart so that we just had a stack of the compounds that they were made out of, right? The rubber, the vinyl, the various metals, all that stuff. There would be differences between the excavator and the Maserati, right? They would just be made of some different stuff. And then there'd be a lot of stuff that they had in common.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Now, you could look at the differences in the materials that they're made out of, and you could say, well, the excavator is really good at, you know, lifting materials and moving them around, and the Maserati is really good at going fast on a paved surface. And those differences are due to the differences in materials that they're made out of. That would be wrong.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Probably you could take the list of materials that an excavator is made out of and you could give it to a bunch of engineers and you could say, I want you to make a Maserati, but you're limited to these materials. And they could do it. Wouldn't be quite as good because there'd be some places where the ideal material wasn't available to them anymore.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But there's no reason you couldn't make a Maserati out of the stuff. Or a sports car. Right. Yeah. So... What that means is there are chemical differences between an excavator and a sports car, but they're not the story. of the differences in what those two creatures do. The chemistry differences are incidental.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Now, when we tell you that the differences that a bat became a flying mammal because it had a shrew-like ancestor, and that shrew-like ancestor had a genome spelled out in three-letter codons, those three-letter codons specify amino acids of which there are 20.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
and that the difference between the bat and the shrew is based in the differences in the proteins that are described by the genome, we are essentially saying that the difference between the bat and the shrew is a chemical difference. It's not a simple chemical difference the way it was when we were talking about excavators and sports cars. But nonetheless, it's a biochemical difference, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
The difference in the spelling of its proteins and structural proteins and enzymes and all of that stuff. I don't believe that mechanism is nearly powerful enough to explain how a shrew-like ancestor became a bat.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
There's a whole layer that is missing that allows... evolution to explore design space much more efficiently than the mechanism that we invoke.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
The mechanism that we invoke is... Random mutation. Random mutation, which I believe in, random mutation happens, selection, which chooses those variants that are produced by mutation and collects the ones that give the creature an advantage. There's nothing wrong with that story. That story is true.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Random mutations happen, selection collects the ones that are good, and those collected advantageous mutations accumulate in the genome. All of that is true. What I'm arguing against is the idea that that transforms a shrew into a baton.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
What you need to get a shrew turned into a bat is a much less crude mechanism whereby selection, which is ancient at the point that you have shrews, explores design space looking for ways to be that are yet undiscovered more systematically than random chance.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
What is that desire? I believe there's a kind of information stored in genomes that is not in triplet codon form, that is much more of a type that would be familiar to a designer. either of machines or a programmer. What we did was we took the random mutation model and
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
We recognized that it was Darwinian, which it is, and we therefore assumed that it would explain anything that we could see that was clearly the product of Darwinian forces on the basis of those random mutations, and we skipped the layer in between in which selection has a different kind of information stored in the genome that is not triplet codon in nature.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, and it's an arms race. How can pharma cloak the money that it's giving so that there's plausible deniability at the point that Elizabeth Warren is confronted or Bernie Sanders?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So the point is, let me try by analogy. Okay. Darwinists will tell you that evolution cannot look forward. It can only look backward. And there's a way in which that's just simply true. On the other hand, a Darwinist will also tell you that you are a product of evolution and you can look forward, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So if evolution can't look forward but it can build a creature that can, then can evolution look forward? I think it effectively can. So my point is that random mutation mechanism is in a race to produce new forms that are better adapted to the world than their ancestors. What if it can bias the game? It can enhance its own ability to search, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
If you lose your keys, you don't search randomly, right? You go through a systematic process of search, and that systematic process of search results in you finding your keys sooner than you would otherwise. So we should expect evolution to find every trick it can access to to increase the rate at which it discovers forms that would be useful in the habitat in question. And this is simply that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I'm not really saying anything that extraordinary. If I say, do you know that computers, all they do is binary? Well, that's true. But if you then imagine that that means that the people who program computers do it in binary... Well, there was a time when that was true, but it's not true anymore. It's not how you do it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
There's a much more efficient way to program a computer, and it involves a programming language, which a computer itself can't understand. But you can build a computer that can either interpret the language in real time, or you can build a computer that can accept the code as it's spit out by a compiler. These are mechanisms to radically increase the effectiveness of a programmer.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But it all comes out binary anyway in the end. That's really what I'm arguing is that there's the initial layer of Darwinian stuff, the random mutation layer that it looks like what we teach people. There's another layer which we're not well familiar with.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And it results in a much more powerful capacity to adapt than we can explain with that first mechanism, which is why guys like Tucker think there's just something. These Darwinists, they keep telling me that the shrew becomes a bat. And then they go on this rant about the random mutations and the triplet codons and the mutations that actually turn out to be good.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
It's just not powerful enough, and they're not wrong. They're detecting something real. And frankly, Tucker is the layperson example of this. You've had Stephen Meyer on. You know, he's actually he's a scientist who's quite good. And he's spotted that the mechanism in question isn't powerful enough to explain the phenomena that we swear it explains. And so he's catching up.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But that's really on the Darwinists for not admitting what they can't yet explain and pursuing it, which is what they should be doing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
It's not a force. So I don't know how much of this I've made clear. But if you fill in the missing layer, it's purely Darwinian. None of this establishes that Darwin had it wrong. But it's just a different mechanism. It's another Darwinian mechanism. Right? I mean, and let me, this is, there's nothing strange about this.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, I don't think the Democrats understand that it's over and that there was a vast infrastructure that made their feeble arguments viable. And that infrastructure is now collapsing. People are far more aware and their lives aren't going to function anymore.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
If you think about the way a human being works compared to, let's say, a starfish, right? A human being has a software layer, a cognitive layer, in which the human being is born into an environment. And that environment could be a hunter-gatherer environment of 10,000 years ago, or it could be a modern environment.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And the human being doesn't have to be modified at the level of its genome in order to function differently in those two environments. It has to be sensitive to the information in those environments so that it can become adapted to them developmentally. Right. So development is one trick that the genome uses to make a human being more flexible than other creatures. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
You do not come out of the womb being ready to do human stuff. You are profoundly hobbled by not having a complete program. But it means that the program you develop can be highly attuned to your particular moment in time and location in space. That is the Darwinian mechanisms that store information in the genome solving an evolutionary problem in a different way.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So this is already a second layer that doesn't function like that random mutation layer.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So evolution should be expected to find all of the cheat codes and to build them in because any creature that has access to all of these different ways of adapting more rapidly or more effectively will outcompete the creatures that have fewer of these things. So you should expect, what I often say is we have to remember we are not looking at
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Darwinism 1.0 you're looking at Darwinism 10.0 you're looking at a highly sophisticated evolutionary structure that is the result of all of the discoveries of the prior structures and that includes some things that modern creatures can do but it also includes an evolution of enhanced evolutionary capacity including things like culture mmm
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
It's an accelerator because that's how you compete. Oh. The faster you adapt. And so this is one of the other things that I think needs to be corrected about Darwinism. We have a very crude, a primitive understanding of what fitness means. We know that it's important, that it's sort of the core thing that selection is trying to accomplish, enhanced fitness.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But we pretend that that means the same thing as reproduction. Often it's very tightly correlated to reproduction. But if you think it's the same, you just miss out on all of the places where reproduction is not the key to lasting a long time into the future, which is really the trick that selection is targeted at.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Selection is always trying to get a creature to lodge its genomic spellings as far into the future as it can land them. So that means one way to do that is often to produce more offspring. That's a good way to increase the likelihood that your genome makes it into the future. That's of limited value.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Let's say that you're in a population that is in jeopardy, but you as an individual are highly successful. So maybe you have 10 offspring, right? You beat the expectation by five times. But then your population goes extinct 100 years after you're gone. right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Your fitness could be high based on how many offspring you produced, or it could be zero based on the ultimate outcome of what happened to all of your descendants.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
My claim is your fitness was actually zero, and you should have adjusted what you did to increase the likelihood that your population would endure whatever ultimately challenged it and not invested so much in producing your own offspring because that didn't end up being productive. So there are lots of cases where
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Producing more offspring and increasing your reproductive success is not actually a key to increasing your fitness, as I would instantiate it. And it is fitness that selection is targeted at. But when we pretend that fitness is something you should be able to measure, we screw up Darwinism. So that's another one of these correctives.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I think the problem is the instinct that we should be able to measure it. It's not that kind of parameter. And I think it's perfectly fine to say reproductive success tends to be very closely correlated with fitness. And we can measure reproductive success.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But we have to recognize that when you imagine that they are synonymous, any place where producing more offspring is counterproductive to getting into the future, we will be confused by, and we are confused by them.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
My advisor, I believe, nailed the answer to that question.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
My advisor was a guy named Dick Alexander. He was a marvelous human being and a very insightful biologist. His argument was that human beings or our ancestors... attained a kind of ecological superiority where the most important dictator of whether or not you evolutionarily succeeded or failed was your competition with other humans.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And so his point, which I think is accurate, is that it is humans in a an arms race with other humans that caused the radical elaboration of our capacity to puzzle solve, to think, to exchange abstractions. Now, I would add to that, and Heather and I have written on this, that the mechanism, we argue that there is a flip-flop that will happen in evolutionary modes for human beings.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So as we talked about a few minutes ago, humans are special in the sense that the genome, which is still the thing that is trying to get into the future, has solved genome problems by offloading the adaptive capacity to our software layer, right? Once your software layer has the capacity to adapt and is not tethered to changes in your genome, well, now you can evolve very rapidly.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. Well, it's always about power and limited resources. And this was a new game taking place at a level that was hard to believe. And therefore, many of us couldn't see it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But how do you do it? And what Heather and I argued in our book is that there is a flip-flop between two modes of evolution. cognitive functioning for humans. One of them is the mode that you employ when your relationship to your environment is very much like your ancestors' relationship to their environment.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So in other words, if you are in a circumstance and your grandparents knew how to live in the place that you live, it does not make sense to be trying to figure out some new way to be. What makes sense is for you to do whatever they were doing and maybe improve it if you could figure out how.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But in general, what you should do is you should accept the ancestral wisdom in a cultural form, and you should learn to do whatever it is your people do, and you should do it as well as you can and upgrade it if that's an opportunity. But there comes a place either in space or in time when whatever it is that your ancestors were doing is no longer productive, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So if you imagine that your people are, I don't know, maybe you hunt elk. Well, if we move far enough across space, there'll be some place where there aren't elk, right? Where the habitat isn't hospitable to them. Maybe it's too dry, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And so you could take the ancestral wisdom that talks about how to hunt elk, or you could recognize that that's not very productive here, and we need to do something else. So I don't know exactly what it is that you'll move to, but you'll have to innovate some new way of being. Maybe you'll take up— I don't know, hunting smaller game, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Or maybe you'll take up gathering some material, or maybe you'll invent farming. But the point is, wherever you are in either space or time, that your ancestors' wisdom is no longer highly productive. you will be triggered into this second mode, which we would call consciousness. So the first mode is culture. Second mode is consciousness.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And the idea of consciousness is that human beings have the capability of doing something no other creature can do. We can exchange abstract ideas between individuals. And that means—and we use the metaphor of a campfire for this—
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
That a human population will gather around the campfire at night and they will talk about whatever they've observed in their habitat and they will talk about what opportunities there are there and how those opportunities might be exploited. And they will parallel process the puzzle, right? Every member of the group has different skills and insights.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And so in talking about how the new opportunities might be exploited, they will come up with some prototype for a new way of being. So the argument I've made is during normal times, your ancestors knew pretty well how to exploit the habitat that you'll be born into. You should take their wisdom and deploy it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
If you are at the edge of that habitat or you are at the point where that habitat changes and it isn't any longer productive to try to do what your ancestors did, you will engage in this conscious exchange of insight, consciousness that will allow you to innovate a new niche.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And at the point you've got that new niche pretty well figured out, it will be turned into a culture that will be passed on to future generations until it's no longer useful. So that process accounts, we believe, for the... radical variation in niches that human beings inhabit. Thousands of niches over the history of our species. That's unlike any other creature.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
For any other creature, once you've named the species, you've pretty much named a niche, some way of being that that species engages in. For human beings, this isn't true. Human beings are like thousands of different species.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
The differences between them, there are some physical differences, but most of those differences between the de facto species that exist within our overarching species, most of those differences are housed in the cultural layer, right? They're software. They're not hardware. That is an amazing capability to have.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
for a creature to have the ability to switch niches in this way and therefore adopt every continent every habitat except the arctic has been made productive by people in this way but the question is like why us why why has the human animal been able to do this and no other animal has done anything remotely similar Well, I think that goes back to my advisor's insight.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
The idea that once human beings become their own primary competitor, the primary dictator of the success of a population is how it does against another population that is similarly equipped. That arms race produces incredible problem-solving capability. It's why our craniums were expanded as they were, why our raw processing power is so large compared to our next nearest relative.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
It's that capacity which then allowed human beings to become regular niche switching creatures.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, they compete, but they don't have the, you know, most animals have many arbiters of their success, right? They have, you know, biotic arbiters, competing species. They've got members of their own species. They've got abiotic factors such as, you know, climate and weather. And those factors mean that they're a multiplicity. Of hostile forces for human beings.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
We became our own primary hostile force and that created the arms race. So one population against another. Can you outthink your competitors?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, because you don't need the armaments, for example.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, I mean, you know, there are others that have many of the rudiments. Like dolphins? Yeah. Heather and I talk about the usual suspects. You've got dolphins, including orcas. You've got wolves. You've got other great apes. You've got crows, parrots. There are a lot of creatures that have some of the magic that human beings have, but none of them have all of the components.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, it is something special, to be sure. The couple things that need to be said here are, A, I am sympathetic to the intelligent design folks, though I do not believe they are on the right track. I'm open to a universe with intelligence behind it, but I've seen no evidence of that universe myself. I'm open to it. If it happens, I will look at it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But I believe this can all be explained in Darwinian terms. And more to the point, I would... I would highlight the fact that they don't really have a competing explanation. So the fundamental principle of reason is parsimony, that the simplest explanation we would typically say the simplest explanation tends to be right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
No, it's a positive feedback. The whole idea is power is utilized to free resources that garner more power. And it is the exact inverse of the system that we are supposed to have. Yeah. It's very interesting. Where we're headed... That's a harder question.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
In my opinion, if we had all of the information, the simplest explanation would always be right. It would be a more reliable law. But in general, the simplest explanation tends to be right. If you take the intelligent design folks and you extrapolate from what they seem to be suggesting, they do not escape the
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
necessity for a darwinian explanation even if the creatures of earth were designed on a drawing board by a creature that wanted to make them that creature has to have come from somewhere and the only explanation that has ever been proposed for where such a creature could have come from is darwinian evolution
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So to me, the problem with intelligent design, the most fundamental one, is that even if it were true, you've basically solved the problem of explaining Earth's creatures at a cost that is a million times worse in terms of parsimony. If it's hard to explain a tiger, Through Darwinian processes, it is that much harder yet to explain a tiger designer.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So the point is, sooner or later, you're going to reach for Darwinism because there's literally no competitor. There's nothing else anyone has ever done.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, I mean, it is, you know, we humans are not built to understand evolution because in general it's not very useful to understand it. So our minds are not structured this way.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Oh, in one way, yes, because let's put it this way. I think we teach evolution badly. There's a process that I would call selection, which accounts for all pattern in the universe, right? Some differential force that arranges the size of the pebbles on a beach, it arranges the galaxies, it accounts for the number of stars of each different type, the elements.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Selection produces all of that structure in the prebiotic universe. It becomes adaptive in the biological sense when you add to selection heredity. Right? When the patterns in the universe become capable of biasing the universe into producing more of themselves. Right? Red dwarf stars do not bias the universe into producing more red dwarf stars. There's no heredity there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So there's a number of red dwarf stars that is the result of selection, but it is not the result of any hereditary process. The thing that's different about us critters is that heredity allows the adaptations to stack on top of each other so that they increasingly bias the universe into producing more of whatever they are, right? A bat is biasing the universe into producing more bats.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So there is no reason at all to think that New game that happens when heredity gets attached to selection is limited to Earth in any way. Now, it could be that it is so difficult for it to happen that it just hasn't gotten around to it anywhere else.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
No. I mean, I'm dimly aware of it, but I didn't look into it and I don't know what it means.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, it could or it could mean that these components assemble themselves more commonly than we would guess. If I had to guess, I would say it's very likely that there's a lot of life in the universe. I don't think there's anything so special about the Earth that it would be the lone example or even a very rare example. You know, there aren't a lot of Earth-like planets nearby.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But there are bound to be a lot of Earth-like planets in a universe as big as this one is. One of the things about the universe is that it absolutely defies human comprehension in terms of how big it is. So I would guess there's a lot of life out there. Why we don't hear from it, that's an interesting question.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
It may be that as soon as it gets around to communicating in ways that we could listen in, it blows itself up.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, A, there's something implicit in what you've said that's quite frightening if true, and that is for – If it were the case that life becomes intelligent, develops artificial intelligence, and then we wouldn't count it as life anymore, that implies the extinction of all of the things that were not the immediate precursors of the AI, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Maybe, but I mean, what I hate to think is that AI results in all of the biology of Earth ceasing to exist.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Oh, it certainly could, but I was just responding to your sense that there wouldn't be life elsewhere because it turns into AI.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, I do want to tag something here then. There's a a theme that is increasingly a focus of mine because it pays a lot of dividends once you start tracking it, which is this distinction between complicated things and complex things, and importantly, the distinction between the mindset with which you approach truly complex things versus the mindset in which you approach complicated things.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So A, I think we have a lot of folks who have gotten very, very good at complicated things and that when they take over complex things, they inevitably fuck them up, right? So in part, our interventionist sense of the way medicine should work is a bunch of complicated problem solving in a complex system where it is destined to create harm. And I think we are going to see that again and again.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Anytime you hear somebody confidently pontificating about some complicated solution that they want to deploy to a complex problem, alarm bells should go off. That now puts us in an interesting place with respect to our machines.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Because what I think is about to happen, if it has not happened already, is that our machines, which are hyper complicated, but not complex, are just about to cross that threshold and become complex, which means that our expertise in thinking about them is about to be rendered obsolete. So AI I believe, has the characteristics of true complexity, or at least has a primordial form of it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And that means that our Thinking about machines is of an outdated kind. And anyway, I'm expecting a kind of catastrophe to arise out of that as we deploy complicated thinking and what we're really up against is misleading us because it's still, you know, it's on a screen. It triggers all of our complicated instincts. And I'm worried about where that goes, and I'm worried.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yes. The problem is I – sometimes when I see like a list of preposterous scientific projects that have gotten big grants, I read it and I think I – They all sound preposterous, but I don't know. Some of these things are likely to have had a good explanation, and it just is not apparent in the sound bite. And some of them are every bit as preposterous as they seem.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Have you tried to extrapolate? Yeah, I mean, I've got to tell you, when I see Larry Ellison talking about Stargate, it makes me shudder because it feels like exactly the type specimen of the arrogant... What did he say about Stargate? Oh, that it's going to leverage AI and produce tailor-made cancer vaccines, this, that, or the other.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And my sense is there is not enough humility in this presentation. There is not enough concern about us stepping into a realm we really know very little about. And that hubris is going to it's going to create a colossal error of some kind. And, you know, you can imagine it. We've just seen a colossal error with vaccines. So, you know, to have somebody saying, well, never mind what just happened.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Likes to make a lot of money and has some murky connections to the deep state. Oh. Boy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, I would love to say more about it at some time, but I've got to get my ducks in a row.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Likewise. Really appreciate you and always glad to join you.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
The Dark Horse podcast. We do a live show every week, and I release several Inside Rail podcasts with guests every month. You can find me on Twitter, at Brett Weinstein. Brett has one T. I'm a fellow at the Brownstone Institute, which is a marvelous institution. You should certainly look them up. Probably about does it. Okay. Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And so I can't look at a map like that and say what I would expect if the system was healthy. So I'm cautious about it. I don't think the system was healthy. I think the system was a racket from one end to the other. And I've been saying that we've been living in the era of malignant governance where there's basically no element of this you couldn't turn off and make us better.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But we have to be suspicious also of our understanding of how a properly functioning system would graph in something like that. So that we don't overrun the train station when we get there. And I will just say, I was talking to a friend of mine who runs an Alaska native corporation, which I don't know if we've talked about Alaska native corporations before. But this is a corporation.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Right. So that program doesn't work very well, at least not as far as we've seen. I think that's true. So I'm not arguing that a belief.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
well like what's the other explanation so i will tell you how i deal with the question personally yes which is i have a category that i don't share with anybody as far as i know that i would call the metanatural right which is sort of the advantage that comes from believing in the supernatural i believe it all ultimately could be explained through a natural system
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
in the same way you could explain a baseball game by thinking of all of the atoms in the baseball and the bat and the players, but that's a terrible way to think about baseball, right? It just doesn't, it's not functional, but yes, you could in principle do it. So I think that the belief in the supernatural is a much more efficient way of encoding hidden truths that you can't readily comprehend.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
So to give you one example, You might have a system in which you imagine that the misbehavior of your people, whoever they might be, is going to result in the anger of a God who will punish you with famine. Right. Okay. That would be supernatural. It's also true that if your people are busy betraying each other, that that may threaten the harvest.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
In other words, your coordination in the planting of crops, the protecting of those crops, and the harvesting of those crops is dependent on whether or not people like and trust each other. And to the extent that they're backstabbing each other, it could very well result in starvation without the intervention of an intentional God. So to me, those two stories are the same story.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
How do you explain to people you really shouldn't misbehave because it could interfere with our coordination in a way that may result in us not having enough food to get through the winter? The answer is, oh, God sees what you're doing and he's not happy about it. And when God's not happy, starvation is highly likely. Right?
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
So the metanatural is the category that allows the reconciliation of the efficient narrative description of this process with the difficult to spot deeper
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And we're right. Well, I wouldn't say outside of our senses. I would say outside of our consciousness. Okay. And so the distinction is like this. Our consciousness is late evolving. It shows up at the end of our evolutionary story, not early. And, you know, that means that there are a good many mammals that have some degree of consciousness that we can see, but nobody's conscious like we are.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
The conscious mind, I will argue, is actually evolved for an initial purpose. The initial purpose is exactly what we are doing right now. It is the ability for two minds to pool their understanding.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
to actually plug into each other and reach an emergent conclusion that neither of us could reach alone or that the two of us couldn't reach separately if we couldn't plug our consciousnesses into each other. So when we say actually that we know things, but we don't know how we know them,
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
We're sort of talking about our conscious minds, which are just this thin sliver on top of this architecture that has been knowing things for millions of years in ways that weren't conscious at all. So I think we're really – it's that interface. Does my conscious mind know why I know this to be true? Why do I meet somebody and –
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
have a distrust that turns out to be accurate with respect to their trustworthiness, right? I can try to piece it together. I may get nowhere. And it may be that there's a lot that I actually did perceive. It came in through my eyes and my ears and who knows what else. But it is my conscious mind's difficulty in describing it that feels like my entire mind was handed this piece of information.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Got it. Yeah. I'm hoping that the text I sent you was not as defensive as that.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
So to put it another way, we don't do a good job of talking about intuition. In my opinion, intuition is the product of unconscious processes in the mind. If those unconscious processes are in a zone where you've had a lot of experience, your intuition is liable to be excellent.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
If those unconscious processes are trying to navigate something where you don't have much experience at all, your intuition will be crude. It's not a supernatural process. It's about the sum total of your experiences and what they are capable of putting together about the world. And that to me, you know, it might as well be supernatural from the point of view of how most people live their lives.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
But in any case, no, I did want to have this conversation with you. And let's just say because evolution is my professional realm, I'm sure I could cite you chapter and verse. Well, you definitely could. But it's pointless. First of all, that doesn't make me right. You know, the fact is, yes, I know a lot of factual material, but there are some deeper issues here.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
It may indeed just simply be the best way to function. But that's different than saying that that's actually what's taking place.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And I thought it would be useful if you and I just explored them, because I think you're standing in for a lot of people who have begun to have very profound questions about the story that they've been told about evolution and what its relationship is to biology and, most importantly, to people. Yes. So I just want to confess a few of my positions so that your audience knows where I'm coming from.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Yeah. In fact, you know, one of the funny things about us is that we have a special adaptation in our eyes that allows us to communicate as a hunting party without alerting the thing that we're hunting.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Yeah. But I don't think it's supernatural.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Well, I mean, if I work backwards from my own parallel experiences... My wife and I know each other very, very well. She can detect if my pattern of communication is off. And if she is triggered to think, huh, I would have expected to hear from him, I didn't. I wonder what that's about.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
She also knows a certain amount about, you know, what's been on my mind and, you know, where I may be heading and therefore she may be able to deduce because she, you know, if we're talking about intuition, Heather's intuition about me has got to be pretty damn good because she's had, you know, her entire adult life to build a model that's as accurate as anybody's would be.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
So her ability to figure out that um that there is some pattern there is second to none and it will not surprise me if very frequently she nails the analysis and we can be 500 miles or a thousand miles apart and it feels like a communication across a very long distance when really it's a kind of a synchrony that allows her to extrapolate when something has departed from normal
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And I will say one other thing about this. We have a very strange pattern as human beings. When we meet, we say... totally meaningless things. You know, what's new? Not much, right? And I've thought a lot about why that would be.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
It's not very expensive each time we do it, but over a lifetime, you're putting a lot of effort into using a communication mechanism that can transmit very remarkable stuff, and you're just broadcasting empty stuff. A lot of wasted breath, yeah. Except it's not wasted.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
If I come through the door and I say, hey, honey, I know before I even see Heather what frame of mind she's in based on her response, even though the words may be the same always. I can tell if she's frustrated, if she's elated. I know what frame of mind she's in. And my sense is that it makes...
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
It makes sense when we meet somebody to go through a pro forma interaction that allows you to detect things like emotional state. It's a profoundly important check and insight.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And rather than say something special, to the degree that it is standardized, what those interactions contain, it makes it much easier to detect the part that's important, which is the tone, the cadence, all of those things. How was your day? Fine. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Well, let's put it this way. I've seen another version of this where you won't expect it. The many universes theory of quantum mechanics. Yep. You know this? Yep. So the basics are that in order to reconcile some of the oddities that quantum mechanics has discovered, we imagine that in every instant there is a universe spawned for every conceivable outgrowth.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And so, you know, if I pick up this pen, there's a universe in which I didn't and a universe in which I did. And those universes go on to do whatever they do, right? Right. This is a spectacularly simple explanation linguistically. It is the opposite of simple in terms of what it implies.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
You're going to create a universe for every conceivable nuance of interaction that every creature, every pebble that rolled down a hill, you're creating universes at this rate? That's not simple. That's complex at a level that's beyond extreme.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
I do not believe that there is a creator in the literal sense. I am in no way hostile to the idea. But I've come to the conclusion that there probably isn't such a creator because all of the things that we have been able to figure out about the world, things that we know are true because they carry a great deal of predictive power, have come to us through the principle of parsimony.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And so my sense, and again, I'm not arguing that this isn't the better way to live, but my sense is when you say the simplest explanation is a creator who wasn't created, yeah, linguistically it doesn't get simpler than that. It's one sentence and you're done. At the level of what it means...
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
it's almost inconceivably what does it mean for something capable of creating a universe not to have come into existence right right i can't even imagine what that means right well it is inconceivable i mean that's that's why you're the created not the creator right but and and again i'm not hostile to this position i don't think you are that's why but my point would be
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
The question of did the universe start with a creator is not one that you are likely to derive some practical value from spending your time on. In fact, you could waste your entire life, make no progress, and be detained from all of the other things you might have done.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
So it would be useful for most humans throughout most of history to have had a simple explanation that simply allowed them to move on to questions where there was some profit to be made or peril to be avoided. You want not to be stuck on questions where there's no profit. potential value in your exploration.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And so my sense is that that's a very elegant way of moving on to things that are actually important. And that's why it's effectively an enduring answer to a question that every human being is likely to have at some point. So what's the other explanation? I don't know. I mean, where'd the universe come from? I'm not even sure we can know. Well, that's the religious position too, right?
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Well, and that's part of why I wanted to talk to you about this is I do think that there will ultimately be a distinction between people who are faith first and people who are parsimony first. And the distinction is the ordering of two things. Right? Did God create an evolving universe or did an evolving universe create God? It's one or the other. But my feeling is it's nothing beyond that.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
We should be able to actually productively collaborate on everything else. And then, you know, at some point in the evening, we can have that argument.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
No, not at all.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Yeah, yeah.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Well, so this is part of where I'm so frustrated with my field.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Because the thing about evolution is Darwin... nailed his part of the question. We narrowed his answer to something that is too crude to be generally functional. It works for certain things. It fails to explain other things consistently. And the closer you get to human beings, the worse a job it does. Not because of anything Darwin got wrong. He was
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
probably to his benefit hobbled by what he didn't know because he didn't know the molecular part of the story he was unconstrained by it which forced him to speak in a general sense that turns out to be correct but
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
What you need to understand in order to follow how this story explains human beings is that the underlying story of evolution, the early one, pre-human story, is about genes getting into the future. That's what they do. That's what all creatures are doing. Every creature has the same purpose.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
In creatures with meaningful culture, that is creatures in which there's generational overlap and sociality enough for something to be transmitted outside of the genome, you get a second kind of evolution. You have cultural evolution. And in human beings, this has become it's become the central element of the story. Genes are very slow to adapt, much faster than we typically think.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And I will clean up the principle of parsimony a little bit because the way it was originally formulated is clumsy, but... If we had access to all the information, then the simplest explanation for each pattern that we observe would be the correct one. Simplicity is our guide to what's true. And for me, the problem with the hypothesis that there is a creator is that
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
But nonetheless, it takes a very long time for a genetic change to spread across the human population. It takes no time at all for a cultural innovation to spread, for both better and worse. I understand. So what I'm arguing is that the genome, our genomes, have offloaded the evolutionary work to the layer of culture. And they've done that because culture can rapidly adapt. Right.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
So, if you look at human beings and you expect to see a lot of evolution in the physical sense, you see some. You see distinctions between populations, but most of them are superficial. But you see radical divergence in cultural dynamics
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
systems those cultural systems are equally as adaptive as the genetic systems underneath so people often draw a distinction between biology and culture that's a false dichotomy biology or genes and culture are equally biological and the bitter pill that comes with the whole thing
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
is culture is actually the genes solving a gene problem, one that we as conscious beings with values shouldn't care about. We are condemned in some sense to be playing out a battle between genes that is absurd once you see it. It's not worthy of us. So, yes, we are evolving radically.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
The fact that, you know, if you go to Italy, you struggle to communicate is the result of two populations having diverged at a cultural level enough that you're functionally incompatible, right? That's a lot of evolutionary change in a short period of time. And you could say the same thing about The difference in belief systems, right?
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
You've got effectively a phylogenetic story of evolution at the level of human cultures, right? You know, for example, we have, you know, you have Judaism, right? From it evolves Christianity, right? Christianity, if in a phylogenetic sense, is the largest evolutionary branch of Judaism, right? It is a competing branch with Judaism. Islam and Hinduism.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
You know, these are alternative structures and the implications for the behavior of the populations that subscribe to these different doctrines are as significant as species distinctions. In other words, the belief system that you inherit outside the genome is It encodes how to be a human being relative to some niche, right? A niche that we don't describe in those terms, but we should.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
If we want a complete, as simple as possible story of evolution, understanding that culture alters the way evolution functions, it does not alter the objective of evolution, is the way to do it.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
No. Genetics carve out the ability to transmit large packages of vital information about how to be outside of the genome. In other words, you inherit your genes from your parents. You inherit your culture mostly from your parents, but outside the genome. After you're born, if you're Parents speak Italian, you will come to speak Italian. If your parents speak Mandarin, you'll speak Mandarin.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
So that package of adaptive information is being passed in parallel to the genes. But again, it is unfortunately obligated to serve the ends that the genome is evolved to serve.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
it answers one very difficult problem. Where did the universe come from? At an expense that is vastly greater in terms of the assumptions, right? If the universe came from a creator, Well, that simplifies one thing. But now we have to explain where that creator came from. And that's a much harder problem than explaining the universe itself.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
I mean, again, let's just work from the other perspective and see whether or not we arrive in the same place. Morality, as far as I can tell, is synonymous with self-sacrifice. Correct. That which is moral is you bypassing an evolutionary opportunity. Exactly. Right. So why would you do that? Why would evolution program you to bypass an evolutionary opportunity?
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Well, the answer is because there are competing evolutionary puzzles. So... The question of, you know, should you betray your spouse, right? Obviously, evolutionarily, it's not hard to understand the argument in favor, right? You might father a child, fathering children passes on some genes. We get why evolution might point you toward that, right?
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
On the other hand, from the point of view of the wellbeing of your family and your family's wellbeing has everything to do with how durable a position they hold in your community, how productive their lives are likely to be.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
the delayed benefit of not betraying your spouse is substantial but hard to convey right so the religious doctrine that tells you this is how you should be and you may see reasons not to be this way But you can't escape the consequences of them. Those consequences will arrive, right?
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Again, if we go back to the question of, you know, what happens in a community that's full of people betraying each other? Well, starvation might be one thing that happens. You can describe that in terms of a God who's angry. And disappointed with people where you can describe that in game theoretic terms in which, you know, cascades of betrayal result in lack of coordination.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
It amounts to the same thing.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
So as much as I agree explaining the universe and explaining biology is difficult, it does not solve a problem to imagine that a creator is the answer. And even if there was one, well...
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
I mean, we're way off in the weeds and all of you. No, I think this is like central. OK, well, good. I'm glad you do. I don't think there is a robust analytical argument for why being alive is superior to not being alive. I think this is, and mind you, I am very committed to the idea that being alive is way better.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
I'm intending to stay alive as long as possible and to help those I love do the same. So it's not that I'm confused about this, but analytically speaking, What is it about life that's superior to not life? Well, the answer is nothing except you would expect a lot of creatures that are the product of a competition between those who were committed to living and those that weren't so committed to it.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
You would expect an accumulation of bias where we would all inherit the same analytical abilities. perspective, even though it's not grounded in the physical reality of the universe. So that one, the only point there is I think that one is actually arbitrary. But once you agree that
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Being alive is pretty great and beats the alternative, and you're going to get an infinite amount of the alternative anyway, so you might as well preserve the one space of being alive that you're going to get, right? Once you're there, well, then the answer is the rest of it follows, right? Why should you... Be honorable. Well, because actually it preserves your spot in the universe much better.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Maybe that creator was existing in a universe that was created by another creator, but eventually you're going to get to a place where you're going to have to reach for the only explanation we have ever come up with for where radical increases in complexity come from.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
I think that being confused into thinking life is great. I mean, what else is there, right? I'm all on board with it.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Well, again, I think the answer is actually implied in what you asked about the failure to evolve that you see in the present. And I agree, in the present, it's pretty hard to make an argument that we are making some discernible kind of progress, in fact. We're injuring ourselves at every turn as a result of what Heather and I have called hyper-novelty.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
The spokespeople for atheism have done such a terrible disservice by demonizing people's religious faith rather than taking it as the important set of questions that it obviously is. There are many different ways that AI works. can radically disrupt civilization. The idea that they will become conscious and that we won't know is, to me, highly likely.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
The rate of change is so high that one can't figure out- overarching pattern over time is one of a dawning of a kind of moral enlightenment it's not as you point out it does not prevent the alternatives from repeatedly re-emerging right but i mean let's take for example how can we even call it enlightenment why is it not just to our preference Let's take the story of Jesus.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
The story of Jesus, if I understand it, and I'm no biblical scholar, but if I understand that story, the key elements of it, or at least several key elements of it, involve a broadening of the sense of self, a broadening of the ingroup. This is what the story of the Good Samaritan tells us. This is what the golden rule is. This is, you know, love your enemy.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Now, those things are a radical increase in the inclusion of others into an in-group. And the benefits of stabilizing a larger in-group are absolutely tremendous.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Now, imagine for a moment that Jesus had said these things in game theoretic terms, and he had tried to convince people with whatever the equivalent of a whiteboard would have been of, you know, the reasons to broaden the in-group at this moment in history. It's preposterous, right? It's not a good argument. Even if it's a true argument, nobody's going to get it. Nobody's going to care, right?
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
So that's not how humans become enlightened. Humans become enlightened because of the power of a narrative that causes them to modify their behavior so that they do function more effectively in light of all of the game theoretic hazards that are always jeopardizing us. Which then answers your other question, I think. Why the bad patterns?
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
So even if we, in this universe, are the product of a creator's work, ultimately that creator is going to have to have come from somewhere, and the only explanation that could possibly work is going to be Darwinian. So, again, I'm not saying that I know whether... There is or there isn't.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
You know, if it's simply good to include others in your in-group, why don't we just simply evolve to default to that and never waver? And the problem is that there's a competition between short-term gain and long-term gain. Effectively, the upgrade in which you in-group more people is much better in the long run.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
But in the short run, individuals who decide to take advantage of that may have some advantage inside of the group, right? And so... Building a structure in which you can't get away with it increases the effectiveness of the moral point, right? If you have everybody calculating that it's morally, you know, you should do the morally right thing if you are in a position to be observed.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And if you're not in a position to be observed, then you should do whatever is most profitable, right? Right? Civilization breaks down. If on the other hand, you take a narrative and you say, nobody ever gets away with anything. it's being observed, it's being recorded, and it may be profitable in the short run, but there's an awful lot of punishment that will come later, right?
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Frankly, I don't even know if the sentence I just said is a religious narrative or a translation of game theory. It's the same thing.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
I am describing a system with a goal, not with intent. Yeah, the system has a goal. The goal is the intent, right? The intent is to achieve the goal. Well, that's, I mean, that is the sticking point.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
I've made a very compelling case for belief in God. Well, but what's the other explanation? Well, that's just the thing, is the other explanation is that there are processes that function... Let's take two examples, okay? If we talk about the behavior of a seedling, right? A seed is planted...
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
But I am saying that the principle that has allowed us to see all of what we can see, that has allowed us to build all that we have built, that principle is parsimony, and it suggests that this universe is not the product of an intentional creation.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
It breaks open, it germinates, and the seedling rises against gravity and breaks the surface and it puts out its two little solar panels. And at that point, it bends towards the sun. You could say, what is the other explanation for that other than a desire to reach the sunlight? And the answer is actually in this case, we know the mechanism and it's amazing. Yeah, yeah. No, I agree.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
But it's not desire.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
It expresses. To exist is better than not to. Yes. It expresses an objective, but not a desire.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
But that's exactly my point. I'm not trying to compel people that the answer that I think I can see is right for them. I'm trying to convince people that the answer I think I see is actually not dogged by some paradox that makes it unviable. It's too cumbersome to live by it. But it's, you know, just like the example of the baseball game. It's made of atoms and energy.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And you could imagine commentators sitting there describing the energy and the material in, you know, the object. And it would be the worst, most cumbersome commentary at a sports event conceivable.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Right.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Yeah, I agree. Another example. Let us agree that love is... a profoundly, I'm struggling for words even good enough to describe it, is a profoundly transformative property of life that is as close to a North Star as a human being can have. And I don't mean just romantic love, familial love, love of country, all of these things. Love is this tremendously powerful force.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Now let us say there's actually a lot of neurochemistry that we can describe relative to love. Which story do I want people living by? Oh, definitely the narrative one in which you just simply surrender to the power of this thing and you allow it to be a guide. That's definitely, I don't want to live amongst people who view love as just a bunch of chemical reactions, yada, yada, yada, right?
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
That's a horrifying dystopia. But it doesn't make it untrue that love is mediated through neurochemistry.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
They are. That's exactly my point. That's exactly my point. They are both true.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And maybe this will be more of a theme of our discussion on other topics here. But there's a kind of nuance that has become impossible. And I'm trying to make a point to the atheists about what they've failed at and why they're not reaching lots of people and why they're losing ground.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And I'm also trying to make a point to the theological folks about Darwinism and about the utility of figuring out how to reconcile these things rather than view them as competing explanations.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Right. And I see, you know, you can make the question go away, but I don't know what that means. We don't have any example of such a thing.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Yes, and if I haven't said it before, I don't call myself an atheist in large measure because I think the spokespeople for atheism have done such a terrible disservice to the idea of science, largely by demonizing people's religious faith rather than taking it as the important set of questions that it obviously is. Yes, nicely put. Sam was a friend of mine. He became very disturbed during COVID
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
about my stance as a COVID dissident and refused to talk to me about it, frankly. I invited him multiple times, and he refused to have the conversation. But he... I think must have earnestly believed that my position was putting people in danger, and he viewed it as a moral failing. He had several podcasts on the subject.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
He accused me of being out of my depth, even though I'm an evolutionary biologist and evolution is highly relevant to all of the topics included in COVID. Is he a biologist? Is he a biologist? In a technical sense, yes.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
He is a neurobiologist who, for his dissertation work, which I think is all of his work, studied effectively the same question that he had been an author about, about the dangers of extreme Islamism. And he effectively answered Did a dissertation on the supposed neurobiological facts of people in this mindset. Islam. Yeah. Now, I don't mean to dismiss that.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
I can say I have doubts about the methodology that he used. He depended on something called FMRI, functional MRI scanning, which in theory allows you to see the activity of different regions of the brain when asked to think certain thoughts or do certain tasks. But there's a lot of difficulty in calibrating FMRI
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Well, okay, let me take a different tack. Yes. Let's say that, let's just start from the premise that there is a creator who intended this universe and the biota. So I'm a product of that. Right. In this thought experiment. And in such a case, I know that this creator gave me a capacity to reason. I'm pretty good at it, and so I have invested in it professionally. And he gave me an incredible...
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Because you need to know what the baseline activity of the brain is in order to subtract out all of the activity that isn't relevant. So in any case, we can put that aside and just say, I'm not certain that what his empirical work involved was robust, but even let's say it is. He is not, broadly speaking, trained as a biologist in any way that I can see.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And so he, to his credit, said that he was out of his depth talking about issues of biology related to vaccines, epidemiology, all of the relevant pieces of biological science. But then he argued that I was also out of my depth, which, you know, I'm not a specialist in terms of vaccines, immunology, epidemiology, but evolution is relevant to all of those things.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And I'm perfectly capable of teaching myself the parts that I didn't know when COVID began. And anyway, he portrayed me as incapable. And when I had expert advice, guests, people like Pierre Corey and Robert Malone on my channel to talk about these things, unarguable experts, people with fantastic credentials.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
He literally dismissed them as possibly schizophrenic, that that would be an explanation for their dissident status. Oh, no. It was pretty rotten and... Rather than... Grappling with what they said. Right. It would have been tremendously productive for us to have the argument. People could then have evaluated for themselves instead of having him lob grenades from afar and play to his audience.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
But in any case, I think what has happened to Sam is tragic. And it's a cautionary tale of some kind. I think he effectively has been convinced by something of the correctness of his position. Frankly, his adherence to it is...
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
He's mad about Islam and he's un-nuanced about it. Now, I do think he is correct in one regard about radical Islam and the danger of it, but I think it has blinded him to a larger story in which Islam is an ancient tradition that has in many places attempted to modernize. Some of those attempts have been more successful than others.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
But I don't think, you know, the way he portrays it, it's simply a, you know, a defect written to the Quran that the world needs to wake up to rather than Islam is a population or a set of populations that, like the rest of us, are in an evolutionary process.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And there's a lot of nuance to be had about what the way to address radical Islam is and how to encourage any such tradition to join what I would call the cosmopolitan West. Sounds like he's making a political point. I don't know what kind of a point it is.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Okay.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Yes, I am following it. And I'm, of course, like everybody else. I have lots of trepidations about even wading into the discussion because I know what happens as soon as you do, which is there's a very low-quality thought that people who have already picked a camp have. And the thought is, I'm going to listen to what this person says, and if it matches—
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
set of evidence for Darwinian evolution. And I'm now forced to grapple with the question of why a creator would have given me a capacity to reason, would have given me the principle of parsimony, the power of which I can see, and a set of evidence that forces me to conclude that the biota at least evolved in a Darwinian way. Now, it could be Let's put it this way.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
what i believe then i'm going to embrace it and if it doesn't match what i believe i'm going to assume it's on the other side and so the reason that you can't have the conversation in the middle is that both sides see you as the enemy which is you know the worst of all possible worlds from the point of view of just living your life however i do think that this topic is actually a pretty good test case of why it is important in spite of the difficulty of thinking evolutionarily
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
to engage the world with that toolkit at least available. Because as an evolutionary biologist who has been fascinated by, often horrified by, the story of human history,
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
I think there's something playing out in the Middle East that is biological and that until we grapple with it, we're in danger of being, for example, dragged into war with Iran, which will be a terrible catastrophe for all of humanity. So, maybe I should make that case. I hope you will.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And unfortunately, I will try to use as little jargon and as few terms of art as I can manage, but there is a little bit that's necessary. I believe the story that is playing out in the Middle East is one of what I call lineage. Here's where things get possibly a bit technical. In my field, We do not typically talk about lineages in the context of, let's say, humans.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Typically, there are two camps in biology. There are the kin selectionists who believe in the importance of shared genes in terms of predisposing people to collaborate. And then there are the group selectionists who believe that altruism provides such a put those things aside, that actually it should dominate our discussion. And these two groups both view each other as foolish.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
I think they're both wrong for different reasons. And that the correct way to understand humans and their evolution involves two important realizations. One, that the kin selectionists are right about the importance of genes in predisposing people to cooperate with each other. But they do not understand that you can extrapolate well beyond named kin, right?
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Kin selection doesn't stop just because you lose track of your fifth cousin. That a population of people that can detect that they are closely related has reason to collaborate, genetic reason, even if they can't specify their degree of relatedness to each other. And that this has a lot to do with the way history has unfolded.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
that up until very recently most history at the scale that we study it is a process of lineage against lineage violence and displacement that populations displace each other from the earth because that's the way to accomplish the evolutionary goal it's the same sort of drive as causes the sapling to reach for the sun right Now, in human beings, we have a choice. That's not the only basis.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
That's not the only mechanism of competition that we can use. And in fact, the West, the modern West, is built on a different basis.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
basis for collaboration it's based on reciprocity and the idea is in the west we agree to put our lineage level origins aside and to collaborate with other people because they have something valuable to bring to the table and i won't go too deep into it but i would argue that the founding fathers of the u.s
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
almost accidentally invented this modern West because they were trying to get the colonists to confederate and they needed to level the playing field sufficiently that the colonists had their fears put to rest enough that they were willing to sign. So in leveling the playing field, they came up with what I think is the magic formula for how human beings are to get along.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And it's not a question of putting competition aside, but it's a willingness to agree that competition should not involve combat, that it should involve the innovation and the production of superior ways of being. to compete with each other in a nonviolent fashion, which is simply better. It's fairer. It's safer. It's much more likely to leave the human population here a thousand years from now.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And so to get back to the Middle East. We are caught in a tension between these two modes of collaboration. You've got the ancient mode, which involves lineage against lineage violence, in which, you know, you can find this in The Old Testament, you can find it in the Quran, right? It's written in there, the rules of war and combat and how you were to view the enemy.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
I think the simplest explanation then would be that the creator used evolution to make the biology. And that, you know, maybe the creator is especially interested in the products of a Darwinian process. You know, maybe the creator is as delighted as I am or because he's the creator more delighted than I am at the sight of a hummingbird.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
They're out group and you are to view them that way. And, you know, effectively they are treated as other. Or you can have a collaborative modality and you see these two groups.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Right. Now, notice what just happened. I just described this to you in what I understand to be rigorous game theoretic biological terms, dry, dull, and boring, and you came back with the obvious rejoinder that actually, no, we have a narrative. We've actually got a name and a location and a description of this upgrade.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
I think they're the same story. I think one of them is actually elegant enough that you could convey it to somebody else. And the other one is arcane and difficult.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
there's this effort to pretend they're the same story but they're they're completely different stories having read them i could just say as a close reader of everything i read those are very different stories oh they're very different stories they do have a relationship to each other obviously of course but even the way they are narratively packaged is fascinating yes right you know you've got a father-son relationship between these two ways of viewing
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
human interaction. The father and the son don't have the identical perspective. as fathers and sons don't, right? So even the way the story is built, it is constructed in a way to be intuitive to people who have observed family dynamics. But the powerful thing here, or one of them, is it's not like the state of Israel, about which I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I can observe it.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
The state of Israel is caught up between these two modes. It's not a simple puzzle. I mean, one thing, you know, the state of Israel is, even though it's like, okay, Jews finally have a homeland, right?
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
on the other hand look where that homeland is it's like it's like a ghetto in you know a neighborhood of others yes so that's a dangerous position to be in and from day one and anti-semitism is a recurrent fact of history so you can imagine that it structures the mindset of people even in a long period of peace there's always the question of well when is that bad pattern going to return so you can understand that
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
You can understand a hardline position that is not so interested in hearing about, you know, peace, love, and understanding because it thinks that the realities of a world in which Jews are constantly being displaced or which the tendency to displace them reemerges recurrently. Right. You can imagine that hardline position. I get the Israeli hardline position. Yeah. I understand it as well.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
That that's a marvelous thing to have happened through this process. I could imagine that. It still doesn't strike me as the simplest way to explain the universe that I see. But if a creator wanted a universe in which biological marvels happened, then the universe might look like this.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
The problem is that. The world. needs the upgrade if we continue to play that lineage against lineage violence game as a planet there's not going to be anything left we have our weaponry is too powerful so not with not with the technology you can't not with the technology not with the population as large as it is not with our level of interconnectedness so the question is are we going to
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
figure out how to get everybody to that upgrade. And that doesn't just mean the state of Israel. It obviously means Islam as well, right? I'm not claiming that that's easy or even that it's conceivable. Maybe it's impossible, and maybe that's the story of what's going to happen to humanity. But to the extent that it is possible, I think it has to be our focus. And if we allow
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
neocons, hardliners, to drag us, and by us, I mean the US, into a war with Iran, then we are effectively agreeing to step back into the Old Testament rules, which will be fatal for humanity. So this was a conversation that has to take place in a middle ground. that is not allowed to exist.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Like I said before, everybody on both sides of the discussion will hear what I've just said as not in alignment with their perspective and will view it... I don't understand, though, why that's... I mean, I'm just confused.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
I don't know. I would be shocked if there was no sabotage element.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
If folks weren't trying to disrupt the nuanced conversation because they have an objective and they want us to get to it. But I don't know what fraction of the problem is that. It could be small. It could be large.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And it doesn't change what I do at the point that I know that a Darwinian process is actually the tool that has shaped the creatures, then it it makes sense to study it in the way that I do. So again, I'm not against the idea that there's a creator. I don't see any evidence for it.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
They're obviously, so obviously I'm Jewish, but let me just say. I'm not Israeli. I'm American. I love how you start this sentence. Obviously, I'm Jewish. Well, I mean, my name makes that pretty clear for anybody who knows how to read the tea leaves. But nonetheless, you know, my position is resolutely America first. Well, yeah. Okay?
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Because I'm an American, and it's not that I, you know, it's... I'm glad that there is a state of Israel. I wish it well, but our primary responsibility as Americans has to be to America. The lessons of the Iraq war You know, I think they were clear enough going into it. We got dragged into a conflict that we shouldn't have been involved in, and the cost to the United States was astronomical.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
The cost to Iraq, even more spectacular.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
I agree. And the degree to which in some sense we are, this is like a neocon hangover that we can't tell is a neocon hangover because the cast of characters has largely changed. But the perspective is very similar, right? This looks like, you know, as I said very shortly after October 7th, There was a plan. It involved a series of wars in the Middle East. Iran was on the list.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
We never got to Iran because the Iraq war discredited the advocates for the war with Iran.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Let us talk for a second about the predicament in the Middle East from abstract terms. Yeah. Let's imagine for a second that there was no Western alternative, that technology had developed as it did, but that basically you had lineage against lineage violence as the key mode of progress for different populations. Yeah.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
You can easily imagine people on either side of the divide between Jews and Muslims concluding both populations aren't going to be here in 500 years, right? And having thought that, then the question is, evolutionarily, what is the right approach from within one of these populations? And the answer is all kinds of things become relevant.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
I guess I'm dancing around an issue because I know how explosive it is to say it out loud. But let's take the idea of a suicide bomber. A suicide bomber seems
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
If there is a creator, I'm pretty sure he must want me to be skeptical for some reason, because he's given me that which would cause me to be skeptical.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
confused to a western mindset right why would a person agree to cease to exist to harm an enemy the potential victory over which they won't even be aware of right and you can tell stories about belief in the afterlife but if you accept my version of the way evolution works then those stories have to be a pretty good match for some actual advantage. They can't be fairy tales.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
They have to actually be metaphors for something real. So in the case that you have two populations that correctly understand that they won't both be coexisting in the same piece of territory, one of them will have displaced the other sooner or later, then the answer is...
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
There's no level of evolutionary success that you can have within a population that matters if the population is going to go extinct. So it would view things in very stark terms and investments in increasing the likelihood that it is your population and not the competing population that ends up inheriting this territory, that would become the dominant thought.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And it makes all kinds of behavior thinkable that would otherwise seem preposterous. I think it makes suicide bombing comprehensible, for example. Okay, now let's rerun the story. You've got two sides that have inherited a it's us or them mentality over a piece of habitat that isn't getting any more fertile.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
then you have an alternative mode the alternative mode is to sign up for the new way of producing wealth that actually forces the weaponry to be shelved and coexistence to occur and hopefully that coexistence then becomes the ability to collaborate which unthinkable as that may be at the moment isn't really all that unthinkable we've seen Plenty of hints of it in the Middle East in recent times.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And I guess the final piece of that argument is that I think that there is a more parsimonious way to understand our universe and the role of religious belief in it, which I know will be grating to many people, especially people who do have a profound relationship with a religious faith.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
But, you know, you can look at the ability of Jews to collaborate with Germans now. You know, World War II isn't so long ago. The Holocaust.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
The upshot is by being told that there are only two sides, you're either with Israel or against it. And with Israel means on board for what's going on in Gaza. And with Israel means ready to attack Iran, right? By being forced into that category, we are missing the possibility that actually what should be happening right now is that America isn't always good at being part of the West.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
The West is an ideal. Sometimes we live up to it. Sometimes we don't. But the right thing to happen at the moment, I believe, is for the West to try to bail the Middle East out of this us or them dynamic, to lead the way into this stable coexistence and ability to collaborate that's better for all of us.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Not only is the upside very positive, but it avoids the massive downside of war in the Middle East dragging the entire world back into the Old Testament and the Quran and lineage against lineage violence, which I really think ought to be our top priority.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Well, okay, let's... Am I being paranoid? No, like I said, I think there's some element of organized... organized propaganda that pushes us in a direction on the other hand i think in part the reason that this issue seems to derange every conversation every coalition is that jews are infused through all of the activities of civilization and you've got a population that
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
I'm hesitant to use a term like, you know, intergenerational trauma, but you've got a population that hands down the stories of pogroms and persecution and the Holocaust because it's vital information. You have to know that that can happen and it can happen anywhere. at any time.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And so being of that mindset, being raised to know that things can be very good and people can, you know, there can be no hint of antisemitism as there wasn't in my life until quite late. Things can be that way and then something can change. And what you thought were the realities of, you know, who your friends are and
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
what they're capable of would radically shift so you've got that population involved in governance business all of the essential functions of civilization and then the noises of an anti-semitic wave start to rise that population recoils into this defensive posture or no is it happening again which then causes
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
But I think the right way to understand all of the evidence is that religious belief systems are themselves profoundly important products of evolution. They are keys to the amazing capacity humans.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
a attempt to drive out all nuances is not the time to be asking questions, that sort of thing, which then causes resentment in terms of all of the things you're not allowed to just even ask, right? As an American, I'm not allowed to ask questions about our support for a foreign government's war.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
You know, I mean, of course I'm allowed to talk about that, but yet somehow it feels very dangerous to even raise the question. So that pattern results, you know, how big a room can you assemble before you have both sides in that room unable to allow any nuance, right? It's not a very big room.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
So what happened to the medical freedom movement was just simply the events of October 7th caused people who didn't even necessarily know each other's positions on, you know, events in the Middle East, suddenly to be talking about them and to find each other un-understandable.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
What a missed opportunity that a bunch of people who'd been through hell together fighting over, you know, their right to speak the truth about all things COVID. That group of people seems like they would have the tools to navigate other difficult issues. But that's not what happened. And that missed opportunity is a tragedy for humanity.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
It means that we're not where we should be with respect to the devastation of COVID. And we're also, you know, nowhere good with respect to our ability to discuss the events in the Middle East.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
I'm open to any possibility. And, you know, in the immediate aftermath of October 7th, it's like too impossible to reconcile thoughts. One is this is so much of a direct hit on this very powerful coalition that has very powerful enemies. Very powerful, yeah. That it's conceivable to me that there's some relationship.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
No, I don't think that October 7th happened because of its utility in dividing people, but there was something so immediate about the... It was like a direct hit on the medical freedom movement.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And so, I don't know how clear this is, but part of what I'm saying is that I think the facts tell us, or they strongly imply a story in which there is no literal creator, but they do not tell us that the creator is a fiction, right? Any more than a wing is a fiction. Our belief in
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
It's always the same. In this case, people do that thing. I am not saying what they're saying. They assume I'm on the other side. Both sides do it. I mean, it's like clockwork, right? So, you know, it's a very... Well, I'm on your side, for the record.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Well, I'll tell you what my position is just so that it's clear for anybody who is inclined to misunderstand it. What I used to say is I believe in Israel's right to exist. I've realized in saying that, that I'm not sure what it means for any country to have a right to exist.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Yeah. Does the U.S. have a right to exist? I mean, it's certainly... A right to exist? It came into being. It does exist. I will, you know, I will even lay down my life if necessary to preserve it. But, you know, it was land taken from other people. So does it have a right to exist? I don't think any nation really can make that claim very well. Yeah. Am I glad that Israel exists? Yes.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
I'm glad that it exists. I think it's important. I think Jews are vulnerable and it is important for them to have a homeland. I recognize that there's a conflict with a central value that I hold, which is the consent of the governed, which means that the demographics of the state of Israel vary. adjust how effective a homeland it is for Jews. I don't know how to resolve that.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
I'm glad it's not my job to figure out how to resolve it. But all of that said, my sense is looking from afar, that the Netanyahu administration's relationship to the population of Israel is a lot like the Biden administration's relationship to the population of the U.S. And as an American living under the Biden administration, those people were not on my team.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Those people didn't give a damn about me or anything I cared about. Well, they actually hated you. I think they probably did.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
The idea that you might want to be supportive of Israelis does not mean that you are supportive of the Netanyahu administration. What's more, I think it's clear that every rational person should hate Hamas for what it is, and it should hate Hamas supporters who know what they're doing. And unfortunately, Benjamin Netanyahu is in that category. I don't know what to do about that.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
But I see credible evidence that Benjamin Netanyahu cynically propped up Hamas or argued for it to be propped up in order to divide the Palestinians. Having done that and then having October 7th happened. Means that to me, any violence that needs to be engaged in to rescue hostages or to do away with Hamas cannot be under his direction.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
I do not understand why he was left in power being responsible for Hamas in some regard. And then responsible for eliminating them. It's so Anthony Fauci-like. It's almost too close a parallel, right? And Anthony Fauci is responsible for the gain-of-function research that seems to have produced COVID. And he's also in charge of protecting us from it. I'm sorry. No.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Anthony Fauci shouldn't have been anywhere near it.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Oh, I think he's very smart and very effective. And the question is really... Two questions. One, is he on the side of the Israeli people? And two, assuming that he's on the side of the Israeli people, is he making a spectacular error that will actually be a massive setback for them? And I would also say as a corollary of that,
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
God or gods is a key to human functionality, and it is incumbent on evolutionary biologists to understand in what way that could possibly be true. And this is a responsibility. on which I think evolutionists have fallen down. They have treated religious devotion as, frankly, a pathology, and it couldn't possibly be one. It's obviously adaptive.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
It's not just the Israeli people who are jeopardized by his leadership. It's, I believe, Jews in the diaspora. I feel that the goodwill that existed towards Jews in the aftermath of World War II is being burned up at an incredible rate. I don't expect to see it return in my lifetime. And I think that's a tragedy. And then on top of all of it,
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
the fate of humanity more or less rests on our ability to stop playing the game that the Netanyahu side is pushing us towards the lineage against lineage violence. And so I think it is time for, uh, the West to reassert itself and its values, to police our own behavior. Frankly, I'm not happy when the United States falls down on its commitment to a level playing field. I agree.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
But that really is the road forward. And in the end, it's better for everybody. In the short run, there are some significant antagonists to moving in that direction.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Well, one, I think as long as you use the rule that those who are not saying, those who are not agreeing with me must be on the other side, it's very easy to end up everybody's enemy. And yeah, it's crazy.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
I am, I think, trying, maybe I'm wrong about the reality of the situation, but I'm certainly trying to give decent insight into how Israel can be safer, how the world can be safer, how Islam can be safer. I think it's better for everybody. That's my intent. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But that's the real issue, though. The
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
The inability to have discussions because some conclusion is understood to follow from them potentially, and we can't risk that conclusion, therefore the discussion is not allowed, that is utterly toxic to us. The West. There's a reason that the First Amendment is enshrined as our first enumerated right.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And I'm a little concerned that the Constitution itself is not up to the challenges of modernity. It doesn't anticipate AI. It doesn't anticipate social media. It doesn't anticipate the ability to study psychology with scientific tools and, you know, manipulate with industrial strength propaganda. But the principle is still exactly right.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And I will say, I heard your discussion with Matt Walsh last week, maybe. And I was fascinated by it because Matt Walsh and I are very different creatures. Like, I really am a liberal and he really is a conservative person. And I heard him say all kinds of things that were provocative. And I found it absolutely refreshing.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Just the idea, you know, that you could navigate those questions in public was a breath of fresh air. And I'm hoping...
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
I'm hoping that all parties who are acting in good faith and really trying to figure out how to get the nation and the world pointed in the right direction will recognize that we've lost the one tool that has been useful in this regard, which is the ability to hash things out, to not demonize people for holding perspectives.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And because it's obviously adaptive, it requires the same seriousness that we point at other structures or processes. And so far, there's been very little of that in my field.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
If they hold a perspective that isn't right, the answer is to persuade them that it isn't right.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Yeah. It's funny. It's actually... Sam Harris hasn't said many nice things about me in the last few years, but... When he did, he used to quote me as saying, bad faith changes everything. And I guess I would rephrase that here as the good faith environment that is necessary to navigate difficult things is supremely powerful, but it is very fragile.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And the sense that somebody is not in it to discover what the right answer is, but is actually playing some different game causes good faith to break down. And I think that's what you're detecting.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Well, I think there's a kind of hubris that has taken over.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
It's like deranged. But I think it comes from a particular place. Which is interesting. We've gotten very good, technically, at solving problems. I mean, you know, the wizardry in your phone is unimaginable. Yes. But... Phones, computers, all of these systems up until AI are complicated. So complicated that most people don't understand them.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Maybe nobody understands them completely, but somebody understands every piece of your computer or your phone. So that's a complicated system. And you can get so good in the realm of complicated systems that you feel mastery.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And the problem is that the places where you're seeing people holding opinions that are preposterous and a level of arrogance that isn't justified by anything, those are complex systems. And a complex system is not just a really complicated system. A complex system is actually meaningfully different. It's fundamentally unpredictable.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And so I think a lot of the catastrophe— I'm sorry, can you say that again? It's fundamentally unpredictable.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
It's unpredictable. You don't know. You don't know. And, you know, okay, so how good are we at predicting the climate?
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
well my guess given that climate is a longer term puzzle is we're less good at it than predicting the weather and i can tell you we're not that great at predicting the weather so when you step into the realm of the truly complex which is all of biology it's human civilization it's economics it's climate
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
You have to go in with a kind of extreme humility because intervention is going to produce effects you cannot see coming. Unintended consequences. Unintended consequences, which means, A, the last thing you want to do is go into that complex system with a blueprint. Here's what I'm going to do and here's what it's going to result in because you don't know. The best you can do is prototype,
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
and navigate, right? You can say, I wanna get to that place and you can take a step in that direction and you can say, okay, well, what was the consequence of that step? And then you can adjust what you did, what you do next based on what you learned the last time.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
You can get where you're going in the same way that a surfer who can't control a wave is capable of, you know, finding their way down it, right? But you can't plan it out. And the other thing you can't do is you cannot decide that certain kinds of feedback will not be tolerated. Right? You have to take a measure of the consequence of what you did and look squarely at it.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And if you say, well, you know... The shots definitely worked because they were always going to work. The answer is how many different complex systems did you just intervene in and you weren't even open to the evidence that it didn't work out the way you expected, that it was counterproductive? No, you don't even belong in the discussion if you don't see the need to do that.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Everybody tells me that there's no way forward by reaching President Trump, that he can't hear it. And maybe I'm going to have to learn that myself. We are nowhere good with respect to the mRNA shots. We are still recommending them for tiny children. who don't stand to benefit at all as far as we scientifically know. And that's an official recommendation? Yes. So it's on the schedule, so-called.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Yeah, it's on the schedule, a COVID mRNA shot. COVID mRNA shots, which, A, as I think I described to you in one of our previous conversations, all mRNA shots have a built-in vulnerability factor.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
or they induce a built-in vulnerability, which is if they are translated in cells of the body that are sensitive, then you will get a pathology because the body will naturally attack the cells that are producing whatever protein you load into the mRNA platform. It will attack them as if they are virally infected because that's what they look like. They are
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
cells that are of you, but they are producing a foreign protein that is the signature of an infected cell. And the immune system has one and only one plan for that, which is destruction. So the reason that the COVID shots produce such a wide range of pathologies is that they flow all around the body. There's no targeting mechanism in them.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
They invade tissues haphazardly, and then those tissues get targeted by the immune system as of course they would. Including the brain. Including the brain, including the heart, you know.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
So basically there's a reason that you can't put together a tight list of symptoms of people who were injured and it's because the symptoms are as wide ranging as tissues of the body and the various kinds of damage, right? It's all on the table.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
So, the fact that these shots are still being recommended for children should tell you something, because they shouldn't be given to anybody under any circumstances. They were never ready for injection into people. Whatever emergency we might have thought we were in, we know we are not in anymore.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
There's no justification scientifically, but injecting them into children for whom there was never a justification because children didn't die from COVID and they were injured by the shot. So why would you take a healthy child and give them something with a risk of a severe pathology when the disease it protects them from isn't a serious threat in the first place? Further,
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Religious belief systems are keys to the amazing capacity of humans.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
We don't know what we're doing to their lifetime capacity to fend off COVID. Apparently, they're going to be faced with it many times over a lifetime. So why would you interfere with their development of whatever natural immunity they will be able to generate by artificially intervening? It doesn't make the least bit of sense. Sounds like a crime to me. Oh, it's a crime.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And many in the medical freedom movement refer to it as criminal negligence, which I think is a mistake because it's well beyond criminal negligence at this point.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
This is the injection of these products into innocent people who are incapable of being informed and incapable of consenting in spite of the fact that you know that some substantial fraction of them will be profoundly injured. It is depraved indifference.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
I believe it could be done effectively instantaneously if the president was on board. And I think we do not separate the... How can I put this? The president has a certain amount of pride over Operation Warp Speed. Yep. And I think he feels mistreated over the... rejection of Operation Warp Speed as an accomplishment, and that has caused him to dig in his heels.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Now, as I see it, this is unnecessary. The president is in no way responsible for the appalling content of these shots. He's not a biologist. He listened to people who knew the material far better than he did, and they lied to him.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
That's entirely separate from the question of whether or not Operation Warp Speed was an accomplishment, whether he succeeded in bringing a shot to the public in record time, which he did. So to my way of thinking, he can be proud of Operation Warp Speed and he can be livid at the people who lied to him about the shot and he can be horrified by all the damage that that shot has done.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And I hope that he will see that. I'm wondering if maybe what might open his eyes to this is the plight of the vaccine injured, which to me is one of the starkest horrors I've ever heard.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Well, you're surely talking about Bobby Kennedy, who I believe absolutely would if he had the power. Okay, so you think this is a White House decision? I believe it must be a White House decision because Bobby knows the horror of these shots. As well or better than anyone. I agree with that. So I think he must feel that he can't get there or maybe he's working there over time.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
But every month that we wait, more children are being injected with these things. And, you know, I'm focusing on the children because...
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
I mean, you can imagine what a bewildering situation it is. Imagine that you're a first time parent and the doctors are telling you that the responsible thing to do is to give your child all of these immunizations because of all of the damage, this, that, and the other. It's very hard for a parent to muster the courage to ask the right questions.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Most people wouldn't even know what the right questions to ask are. And what's more, the incentives in the system for doctors to get their children patients, so-called fully vaccinated, are constructed so that doctors are absolutely inflexible on this topic. They're going to have something to answer for, in my opinion. I agree. And I can't believe that doctors who at this point
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
know the truth are not standing up en masse.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Yeah, I don't think we have a good sense of it. What we have is, you know, an official estimate that we know is a tiny fraction of the full number. We also know that we can't calculate the pathologies that are very delayed, of which there are many in this case. So we don't have the slightest inkling of how much injury has been done. But that's why I want to focus on the other aspect of this.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
The number of people who have been injured is absolutely huge. The gaslighting of the vaccine-injured is an entirely separate crime. At the point that you have told people, there's a shot, it's safe, it's necessary that you get it to protect the vulnerable... And then people have been injured. I don't care how few they may be. Let's say it was only a handful of people who were injured.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Pretending that they weren't injured, pretending that it's in their heads is an absolutely ghastly crime. And I will say that there's a documentary coming out. It should be out on the 15th of this month called Follow the Silenced. And it follows a couple of vaccine-injured people, including Maddie DeGerry, who is a... I don't know if you know her story, but she was...
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
a young girl who was in the Pfizer trial and was gravely injured, like wheelchair, feeding tube, injured, and was told, in effect, this is a stomachache, it's in your head, you're attention-seeking. And I think just noticing what a an absolutely heartless system would be necessary in order to treat somebody, not only who took the shot, but a child
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Well, I look at it differently. I see the same or a similar pattern. And my sense is in biology, when we see a complex, costly pattern that either re-evolves, spreads, or otherwise persists over a long period of time, we are forced to grapple with the question of what could its utility be. Exactly.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
who did their part for the team, joined a trial in order to get this vaccine to market, right? This is somebody who went above and beyond the call of duty, was gravely injured and deserves every tool at our disposal to make her life as tolerable as it can be to address her sacrifice, and she has gotten exactly the opposite.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
So, if we extrapolate over all of the nameless people who were injured in some way, people who were told by their doctors that they were imagining their pathologies until they discovered Facebook groups with hundreds or thousands of other people experiencing the same thing, Facebook groups that were then canceled by Facebook under the direction of the government, right? This is
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
As I said before, it's an entirely separate crime. And what I'm hoping is that the revelation of that crime will allow President Trump to see that although the destruction that came from the shots is in no way his responsibility,
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
He is in danger of making this his responsibility by not responding to the fact that we're continuing to injure new people and we are pretending that the vast number of injuries we already have are mysterious, which they most certainly aren't.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
right and you know morally speaking sure obviously there's no solution down that road what we have is you cannot pay your taxes you go to jail right yeah and and you get no sympathy from anybody no sympathy from anybody so at some level we have uh you know our right to redress of grievances and you know maybe maybe that's what podcasts are about in this case.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
If the system had generated a shot in record time, gotten out over its skis and emergency use authorized it in an effort to stave off a pandemic, the danger of which was overrated. You would expect a rapid reversal, of course.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Because, I mean, had it been a mistake, you can imagine...
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
You can imagine finding yourself responsible for trying to do the right thing and having countless people injured as a result of it and then discovering that the disease itself had a minuscule case fatality rate and that it was really effectively pulling people who were very close to death in some other regard over the line a bit early, right? That's no reason to wreck civilization and...
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
gravely injure people for the rest of their lives. So anybody who had discovered that they had been party to that would naturally want to just staunch the bleeding. And that's not what happened. And it's still not happening. And what's more, there is a shell game being played over the cause of the vaccine harms to the extent that they are acknowledged at all.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
There is what I think is an organized campaign to portray it as the result of the unfortunate choice of the spike protein, when in fact much of the damage has nothing to do with the content of the shot at all. It's the platform itself. And, you know, we're watching pharma reformulate shot after shot on the MRNA platform. They're pioneering. So it's the novel technology itself.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
It's the novel technology itself, which Again, you're intervening in not only a complex system in this case, but a nested series of complex systems. You've got an epidemic, the spreading of a disease. You've got the human body. Within that, you've got the immune system. These are each complex systems in their own right.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And the ability to introduce a novel technology and to predict the outcome, as I think I may have discussed with you before, One of the things that we've discovered, I have to assume pharma didn't know this, but one of the things we've discovered is that if you've had two of the mRNA shots, that your body starts producing a special class of antibody that turns the immune system down.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And while I don't think we have a good hypothesis about the utility of human sacrifice, and personally, morally, I'm offended by it, as I'm sure you are.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
That's a very dangerous thing to have triggered. It ought to have caused somebody to, you know,
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Yes. And, you know, this is the lesson of modern technology is that you should engage it with tremendous trepidation until, right. And, you know, liberals have a lot to answer for at the moment, but there was a time when liberals were focused on the precautionary principle, which is exactly this, right?
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
If you're going to engage something new, you should assume it's harmful until proven safe rather than assume it's safe until proven harmful. And we have abandoned this principle, right?
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
You know, I, Heather and I have an ongoing discussion where she'll say, I don't see how people could possibly believe X. And then she will give some example where people have said something that couldn't possibly be right. And I will say to her,
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
You know, it's one of those times when you have to realize that what you mean by I believe X does not bear any resemblance to what most people mean when they believe something. And I do think this is another argument, actually, in favor of a... An all-encompassing tolerance of discussion, right?
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Nonetheless, like so many of humanity's worst attributes... We have to look at it and grapple with the evolutionary implications, that it does have some sort of a meaning. And I should say, buried within what I'm saying is a critique of evolution. where my field has gotten to. As I think I mentioned to you in a past discussion, I think my field is stuck. And it's no longer solving big problems.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
You have to be able to discuss all things in part because what you really want to discover is how wide a range of opinion and perspective there actually is. And if you start demonizing people as soon as they depart from your consensus, you get the sense that we all see it alike because you can't see the people who don't.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Well, my view is that there are many different ways that AI can radically disrupt civilization. And some of them are utterly guaranteed, others we're speculating on. I think one of the lessons from the mind of a biologist who's focused on complex systems is that the technologists think they understand more about the way AR works than they do, and certainly than they will.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
So, you know, I hear many confident pronouncements that it isn't conscious and it won't be conscious because we didn't program that capacity.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Well, I will put it the other way from the biological perspective. We have a lot of evidence that a human child is basically an LLM. It's more than that. It has other capacities.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
But when you think about what it is that allows a human child to go from being unable to utter a single word to fluent sentences and nuanced, complex arguments, it basically is ingesting language from its environment, experimenting, seeing what causes a reward. It's an LLM. You can argue that it's not conscious. Large language model. Yeah.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
which is that they can process huge amounts of data at lightning speed, right? So there are ways in which they already outstrip the capacity of any person to, you know, answer questions on any range of topics. But The idea that they will become conscious and that we won't know is, to me, highly likely.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Yeah, lying. And I ran into an interesting example a couple of days ago. Apparently, so there's a process by which you can ask an LLM how it reached a conclusion. And
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
at least some large fraction of the time the analysis that the llm presents as to how it reached the conclusion does not match the internal evidence it's rationalizing right just like a person does i mean so it's we have to be quite careful well if it's aping human behavior people carpet bomb each other
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Let's put it this way. I am not what is called in AI circles a doomer that expects the AI to turn on us. I think it's a possibility. I'm a little annoyed that we let this genie out of the bottle without having a conversation about what to do. Having let it out of the bottle, any attempt to slow it down isn't going to work because it basically just means...
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
People who are less concerned are going to have the advantage, which is not something you want to do. I also believe that were we wise about this, we would recognize the biological lesson here, and we would recognize that it implies a kind of answer in terms of how you might prevent catastrophe here, which is...
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
It needs to have a life cycle that includes a developmental stage in which we induce a value structure that will not arise otherwise, because I think the expectation should be that effectively, absent the induction of a moral structure, it will be effectively sociopathic.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
It's focused on producing lots of papers that study some specific, but it's not discovering big new things. And that's not because there isn't lots to be done. It's because it's sort of lost track of how to do it. So I'm not arguing, I'm not a champion of the state of evolutionary biology. I think it's a little pitiful.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
I think we don't even yet really understand what kind of power it's going to have. Just the degree to which it is persuading us of things, and then we are reflecting on those things, which then become fodder for the next generation to ingest. That is a positive feedback.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And that positive feedback has every potential to, I think, drive us crazy at the very least, as the AI confidently pronounces to us the things that we can conclude from having queried it. I mean, that's dangerous. Do you use it? Do I use it? Very sparingly. And I have no idea whether that is an enlightened position, if it is foolish.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
If it is a self-destructive middle ground where I know I neither get the benefit of the AI nor the immunity from staying away from it, I don't know. And, you know, again, this is, it's a place where if there's one thing I know, it's that I don't know.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Yeah. I don't think there's anything we can do at the level of regulating ourselves into safety. But I think coming to understand the problems that this is inevitably going to produce and creating some sort of surveillance mechanism that can monitor the problems that it causes.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
I don't mean surveillance of people, but I mean to the extent that LLMs are altering the way people interact and understand themselves, we need to study that process so that we can detect if we are being driven to madness. How you would do that, I don't know, but I do...
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
I believe that you would want people who understand the full depth of the problem discussing the range of possibilities, what might be done just to simply record the state of the LLMs at a particular moment, the state of, you know, the public's understanding of various topics and see how the two are interacting.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
No doubt people are studying that for the purpose of monetizing it, but from the purpose of, I mean, just look at how the cell phone and social media has altered human relations. The answer is radically and in a way that's totally arbitrary, right? Or arbitrary would be better than what it is. It's partially pernicious because our attention has been monetized.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
The change that the LLMs are going to bring is going to be tenfold what the cell phone did. And the cell phone was pretty disastrous from many different perspectives. I see. So, yeah, I think there ought to be a full court press on trying to understand its impact so that we can immunize ourselves. That said, I don't see the...
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
But I am a champion of the basic Darwinian paradigm, which I think we have lost sight of. In fact, evolutionary biologists in the middle of the 20th century overly narrowed our understanding of Darwinism and have blinded us to what it's really trying to tell us about ourselves. And I would love to see us how to do the process of discovery and to start... I strongly agree.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
learned people who have the proper seriousness and independence to have that discussion at the moment. So, you know, maybe it's inconceivable, but that is what I would propose.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
I fear not. I fear not. And I fear we won't, we were going to increasingly have trouble remembering what it was like before.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
There's something to that. I think the evidence that a sizable fraction of power players are cashing out of our collective society and building their own fortresses um is suggestive i think i think a certain number of people who are in a position to affect our trajectory have uh given up on the west and um we can't let them we can't let them win
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
Well, I don't think it's in our nature is one thing. I like the West and, you know, I'll die on that hill. I do have children. I want them. I want them to survive, but I also believe there's a lot to be said for surviving in a world worth inheriting.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
And I'm concerned that those who have, um, betrayed our collective project, uh, are going, you know, I don't think they're gonna inherit a world they're gonna wanna live in. I agree with that. Either. But, um, Look, the answer is just personally, Heather and I don't have it in us. We wouldn't reject the West if we had the opportunity to do so. But I also think it's the only game in town, right?
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
We either succeed in stabilizing the West and making it return to a trajectory in which it gets ever closer to its promise or um we're going to be doomed by its collapse which is a large part of why uh i invested so heavily in the rescue the republic project in um
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
trying to prevent the reelection of the blue team and to promote the election of the one alternative that we had, which is the Trump administration. So I guess what I'm saying is I'm all in because I don't really see, I don't see a contingency plan that makes any sense.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
...unlocking big puzzles. But it sounds to me like You believe in a universe in which biological evolution happens. Yes. Okay, so there's no disagreement.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
What I think I did not articulate properly is I'm not arguing that a materialist scientific worldview that excludes the supernatural is a better way to live. One of the things I think atheists have done particularly badly, and one of the reasons that I don't call myself an atheist, is that... There is no demonstrated case in which, you know, an atheist civilization has thrived.
The Tucker Carlson Show
Tucker and Bret Weinstein Debate Evolution, God’s Existence, Israel, and Will AI Gain Consciousness?
In fact, we have many examples in which they have spectacularly collapsed. And in fact, the things that presently threaten our civilization include a great many, you know, atheist ideas. Like, you know, you can just up and change your sex if you feel that you're trapped in the wrong.