Bret Weinstein
Appearances
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
This episode of the Joe Rogan Experience is brought to you by Call of Duty Black Ops 6. Dive into a twisted 90s spy thriller in the latest Call of Duty game on October 25th. Black Ops is back with a cinematic single-player campaign, best-in-class multiplayer, and the return of round-based zombies. Get exclusive benefits with the Premium Vault Edition.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
I think it's important to point out that you had this idea a while ago and that it was actually removed from Twitter.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, that's a great way to put it. And I'm glad you did point out the fact that there were really things. The Red Scare is a weird example because people would like to kind of dismiss the impact that communists, especially Russia, was having on our government. And there was a pretty big impact. I mean, they did steal the plans for the nuclear bomb.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But what's important is that it was removed from Twitter.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, here's the thing you could do very easily. You put bots onto this program. So you have these people that are tweeting under this banner, and then you send the bots to that page to agree with them. They say, oh, my God, we found bots. Right. Let's shut it down.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
There's a lot of shit that happened because of actual communist interference. Yeah. But the narrative when I was in high school was that the Red Scare was bad, right? It was like everybody went crazy and they were all looking for – which was true too. But that's part of the problem when you don't know. Like back then, no internet, very little paper trail.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Robert Malone? And this is September 29th. And what is the Web site? Join the resistance dot org.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
All right. Hear, hear. Burt Weinstein, appreciate you very much.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Thank you. Thanks for being you. All right. Goodbye, everybody. All right. We were going to end. Ladies and gentlemen, a bonus. A bonus. We had forgot to talk about this one thing. So when Tucker was on, he was saying that there was no evidence for evolution.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, he's absolutely willing to change his mind. Yeah. About everything.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
It's very important that he's got such a big voice because of that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
It's really hard to find out who's talking to who unless you get an actual listening device in the room and capture them talking.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So anyway, he's oddly misinterpreted. Yes. Like the way people pretend he is versus how he actually is. I mean, he doesn't do himself any favors. Like when he had that guy on that said he blew Obama. Like, wait, he's just wild. But I mean, he's willing to have on anybody, I guess. But but who he is as a person, he's a lovely guy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Oh, yeah. Right? Yeah, which is really interesting about him. Passionate fly fisherman.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, I do, too. And it is interesting. There's a certain group of people that are just on Team Blue. They say anything positive about Tucker and you're some sort of a terrible villain and he represents white supremacy. Yep. Okay. Yeah. What? Yeah, it was a strange discovery. But it's being connected to Fox News. You get attached to Fox News.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
You get attached, especially him, the most popular voice on Fox News.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, it's just the rational voice is so discouraged in today's world. The rational, objective voice where you look at both sides. You look at – I see why someone would say this. I see what you're saying. I see this. Everybody immediately gets polarized. Everybody immediately connects to their ideology and changes –
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
The words of someone to be the least charitable version of what it is and the most heinous interpretation of who that human being is. And if you support them, you support this. And if you platform them, you platform this. And it's just nonsense. It's nonsense peddled by morons. It's a moronic way to look at the world. It really is.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
bobby kennedy was a kook yeah 100 i said it's him when he came on the podcast i said i have to be honest that my version of you was connected entirely to you being an anti-vaxxer conspiracy theorist kook the dark cloud of the kennedy family this one guy who's just nuts unfortunately too bad then i read the real anthony falchion i was like hang on Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Oh, it's it's then I talked to some brilliant people that I know that recommended certain things and told me to read some other things that he had written. I'm like, oh, OK, this is another one of those. Another one. Well, there's people that meet me and they think I'm some right wing kook, you know, conspiracy theorist, asshole, mean person. It's like, okay, how do you get there?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
You're getting there because someone's led you there. You're not getting there from a normal objective analysis of a person, who they are and what they stand for. That's exactly it. And with him, he's connected to that business, that business of first environment, right? So he's an environmental attorney. He cleaned up the East River and did a lot of great work.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. And he's so well measured when even dealing with these attacks, the way he handles things is so admirable.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. And you're being led. You're being led by what's essentially propaganda. And it's to polarize us. It's to keep us separated and to keep us thinking that you don't have anything in common with people on the right and they're demons. You don't have anything in common with people on the left. They're loons. Like you and I are both very socially liberal. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And the idea that you'd be sitting here saying Trump's got to win. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
It's crazy, but the world's crazy. And when the world's crazy, you have to have crazy solutions.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, if you just get one good one, you're hooked. For me, it was the Kennedy assassination. One good book on the Kennedy assassination. I was like, God damn it. They killed the fucking president. It freaked me out forever. That was like I literally had a giant shift in how I viewed the world after reading that book.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Because before that, I was never a questioner of whatever was in the news or whatever the narrative was that we were being told about anything.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So how do you know if your dog's food is as healthy and as safe as it can be? Well, Farmer's Dog gives you that peace of mind by making fresh, real food. developed by board-certified nutritionists to provide all the nutrients your dog needs. And their food is human-grade, which means it's made to the same quality and safety standards as human food.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But can it get you to where an octopus can change its texture and completely camouflage itself to look like a coral reef?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. Right. Or to a human. Right. True to a human.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So do you think there's a process that it's yet to be discovered? There's something else going on?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. Well, which is one of the reasons why they're so terrified of Trump. There's a certain amount of stealing they can do. Let's imagine if it is dirty and you really can manipulate elections. How much can you manipulate by? Can you manipulate it by 30 percent? You know? We don't know. And as long as they can have you believing in the polls, this is what's really important, polls.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Kamala Harris is up by 3%. Oh, she's up. She's winning. Like, who the fuck are you talking to? Who are you talking to?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, some magic. It's like, you know, there's that theory, that concept about multiple dimensions. multiple universes that we all live. This possibility that there's infinite numbers of universes all around us all the time and we enter into a different timeline. We entered into a different timeline. Clearly. Something happened.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. So that's what we're talking about. So we're talking about like maybe they can cheat by 10%.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, it would take a person with that kind of personality that could withstand that kind of abuse. Because he didn't freak out at all when they went after him. He was like, eh. Right. Just brushed it off like it was nothing. And no one's done that. He's also the only guy that's ever gone through four years and didn't age like he went through 30 years. That's true. He aged normal. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
He's used to it. He's used to pressure. And Bush... He aged a ton. Obama aged a ton. Everybody aged a ton. Biden was already cooked before he got in, but he's hard. But he aged a ton. I mean, Biden from 2019 to today is a different person.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Very few pet foods are made to this strict standard. And let's be clear, human-grade food doesn't mean the food is fancy. It just means it's safe and healthy. It's simple, real food from people who care about what goes into your dog's body. The Farmer's Dog makes it easy to help your dog live a long, healthy life by sending you fresh food that's pre-portioned just for your dog's needs.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
He's trying to be a little bit more reasonable, you know, and try to appeal to more people because of that, you know, that effort to be more reasonable. Like he's he's changed his mind about a lot of things. He's talking about legalizing marijuana.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
He's talking about all these different things that are like where, you know, you're going to get a lot of different responses from like the hardcore Republicans are not going to be for that. You know, any... Any idea of abortion, the hardcore right wing are not interested at all. And any restrictions on abortion at all, you get your hardcore left wing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So it's the mostly it's the people in the middle. Abortion is a good one, right? Because most people are like no one should be able to tell you what you could do with your body. But also aborting an eight month old fetus is kind of fucking insane.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Interesting. Right. Because blue collar people were generally union people, which were generally Democrats.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yes, that's recent. That's recent over the last year. It is interesting, right? Because we did growing up always associate unions and blue collar people with voting Democrat because Democrats were looking out for the middle class, looking out for people's best interests, supporting unions and fair wages and funding schools and all that kind of stuff. Keep a neighborhood safe.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And Republicans were more like small government. Fuck you. Figure it out. I don't want to pay taxes. Yes. Stingy. And they were the ones that are encouraging war. Yep. Which is crazy today that you have this massive 180 degree shift. And the Democrats are talking about how important it is that we keep funding Ukraine.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And that we have some sort of – whether you're pro-Hamas or pro-Palestine, I should say, or whether you're pro-Israel, there's involvement in that. No one is saying – no Democrats are saying we need to get the fuck out of there. They're saying we need to free Palestine. Oh, OK. How are you going to do that? How are you going to do that? How much is involved in that?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Are you going to bring in people? Are you going to send people there? What are you going to do? Are you going to kill people for this? Yeah. What are we doing? The Democrats are there. You guys are looking for war. You're not looking for peaceful solutions like this is kind of weird. This is interesting. You know that we need to beat Russia. Are you out of your fucking mind? Are you serious?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Do you know how big that place is? Do you know how much military force is behind Putin? What are you talking about? What are you talking about? Like what if he just decides to go nuclear at any point in time? He gets pressured. You keep advancing further and further into Russia. And he's like, I'll just end this right now. I'll just turn Kiev into a fucking sandbox. Boom. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Did you see the article that I posted on my Instagram that's a title of a New York Times article for today? Which one? Jamie, pull this up. I want Brett to see this so you know this is real. This isn't the Babylon Bee. This is an actual New York Times article. You see it? This is so crazy. It's really hard to believe that someone would print this and the New York Times say, yeah, we like it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
The Constitution is sacred. Is it also dangerous? One of the biggest threats to America politics might be the country's founding document. What the fuck are you talking about?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
One of the biggest threats to America's politics might be one of the greatest documents that any country was ever founded on, if not the greatest ever.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
That could be a threat to America's politics. What politics are we talking about? How could you possibly gaslight me enough to go along with you on this?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
It's always a great time to start investing in their health and happiness. So, try the Farmer's Dog today. You can get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food at thefarmersdog.com slash rogan. Plus, you get free shipping. Just go to thefarmersdog.com slash rogan. Tap the banner or visit this episode's page to learn more. Offer applicable for new customers only.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, this is why a person like Trump is so important to them. Because if you don't have someone that is an imminent threat on the horizon in three months, it's very difficult to justify all this shit. So if you have Kamala Harris and she's competing against Ron DeSantis, if it's just Kamala Harris and Ron DeSantis and Trump doesn't exist, maybe he died. Maybe he died in the last few years.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
How could you – you wouldn't be able to make that argument. There's no imminent threat. Let's say Mitt Romney. Let's say someone even more moderate as a Republican, even more palatable. You can't make that argument that we don't need – we can't have a First Amendment because the First Amendment is getting in the way.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
The First Amendment is allowing people to say things that aren't true, misinformation and disinformation. And right here, we're September 2nd. I think yesterday was the first day where Brazil banned Twitter. I know. So X is illegal to have in Brazil as of today, as of yesterday. And not only is it illegal, but you go through it through a VPN and they will charge you $8,000 a day.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Not as ramped up as this is, though. This is like Hitler, Hitler talk. They never talked about Mitt Romney like he was Hitler.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. That's that's a that's where a fun meme is. There's a fun meme that someone made about how you're telling me that he's going to do these things that he didn't when he was in office. And you're telling me that you're going to do these things that you didn't do and you're in office now.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. And they're weaponizing the courts over what was a misdemeanor with that's already. If you look at the like Bill Ackman had a post that he made on Twitter laying out the legality of this 34 count thing that they convicted him of. that this is essentially an accounting error or deception that's a misdemeanor that is past the statute of limitations.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And very dangerous because you've set a precedent now. Now, let's imagine like we've gone through shifts in this country where we leaned heavily left, like during the Carter administration was run by serious lefty. And then what if now it is run by a hardcore right-winger? What if there's some sort of an attack on American soil and it ramps up patriotism and people get real angry?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Just like the left has moved so far left that if you're not in favor of hormone blockers for kids, somehow you're transphobic and you're a bigot. Like somehow or another, if you're not in favor of that, you're a bigot. What if it gets so right? that if you're not in favor of stops and frisks all over the country for everyone, then somehow or another you're anti-safety of the nation.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And if you're not in favor of no-knock raids on people's homes with no warrants, then somehow or another you're a danger to our democracy. It can go really creepy far right, just like it's really creepy far left, and then they're utilizing the court's
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Didn't some shit go down today? Didn't we steal the president of Venezuela's plane? Yeah, I think we just stole his plane.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
If they fill the courts up with a bunch of hardcore Republicans, now you're utilizing the courts against people in a way that you would find very offensive because you've made it – you set a precedent.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
No, not us. Okay, good. The United States. Someone stole his plane. All right. Which is kind of an act of war. What is that? Was he in it? I don't think so. No. I think we just stole his plane. Just like for a joyride? What's the story? U.S. seizes Venezuela President Nicolas Maduro's airplane in the Dominican Republic. So we said, nope, we're stealing that. How does that work?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But isn't existence itself insane? The universe itself is insane. Subatomic particles are insane. Going all the way out to solar nurseries, it's all insane. The whole thing's insane. It's insane in scope. It's insane in size. It's insane in its complexity. It's almost incomprehensible. Almost incomprehensible.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So why would it be more incomprehensible if there was infinite variety and infinite numbers of them? It would just be a different level of crazy that we weren't aware of.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
I think it's literally impossible. We just look at it as a number. It's a small number, actually. You look at it, oh, like what's the most recent, the James Webb Telescope, the most recent advanced versions of it, they're talking about 22 billion plus years for the Big Bang.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
They're looking at that now because of the structure of some galaxies that shouldn't exist in the time period of which they would have to... be formed in a certain amount of years. And so it's very contentious, but there's some of these people studying the results that seem to believe it's quite possible that you might want to push that date back for whatever the Big Bang is. Right. Okay.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And then there's Sir Roger Penrose who thinks it's like a constant cycle.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
i don't know about that i don't i don't think that's necessarily true because just because we haven't solved the problem of this immense thing that's impossible to grasp it doesn't mean it can't be way bigger than we even imagine in a concept that's impossible to grasp And there's got to be some reason why so many people are entertaining this multiverse theory.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Even if you don't get along with a president of a country, how disrespectful is it to steal their plane? You're right. It's an act of war. Imagine if Xi Jinping landed somewhere and we're like, we're going to steal your fucking plane. Yeah. No chance. That's a bully move. That's a move you can only do to a country like Venezuela.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
I think it sounds like the universe, though. I don't think the universe necessarily sounds like nature. Nature is what we see here. But what we see everywhere is so bizarre. Black holes are so bizarre. Supernovas, they're so fucking bizarre.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
The fact that there's a giant black hole in the center of every galaxy that's one half of 1% of the mass of the galaxy, and there might be another universe inside of that thing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, the existence of the black hole, but the concept of a black hole being essentially a portal into another universe where there's hundreds of billions of galaxies, each one with a black hole in the center of them. You go through each one of those, you have hundreds of billions of galaxies, each one with a black hole in the center of it. And you just keep doing that forever and ever and ever.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Isn't that kind of the multiverse? Well, let's put it this way.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
You think AI can't get a grasp on this in a better way?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Quantum computing a thousand years from now might have a.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. What about a future in which we develop some sort of propulsion system and attach it to a drone that's not it's not based on fuel. It's based on some sort of gravity thing and allows you to traverse immense distances very quickly. And then we could actually get that fucker way out there, take some video and bring it back.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, it's okay. It's all funded by the government. Oh, right. Infinite money. We just print checks. Oh, we'll just tax people. And we'll blame the UFOs.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think so, too. Yeah. I think both things are true. I think we have been visited. And I think it only makes sense. I think there is life out there because it doesn't make sense if there isn't. And I think I would visit.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
If I got 1,000 years more advanced than we are and we found out about some planet that's 2,000 light years away that actually is making nuclear bombs, fuck yeah, I'd visit. Of course. I'd visit. 100%.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So, of course they would visit, and of course they would want to protect us from the overwhelming shock to our culture that would undoubtedly be thrust upon us if we were confronted with a city-sized spaceship that's hovering over Detroit, just hovering over there. It would send the world into a massive panic. No one would know what to do.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
That's got to be good news because we're – Right, but to anyone in power, this would be a gigantic threat.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
To anyone trying to pass off some sort of narrative that this is the – that we're in the lead in terms of like the moral high ground of the world and that we're the wisest, we're the best, we're going to make decisions for everybody, that would throw a monkey wrench completely into the gears of that. Oh, totally. So they would lose all control. They would lose all authority.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Because I don't think they are. That's not what I'm saying. I think that would freak them out, and they're not doing that, right? I think if they are real and they do observe us, they probably observe us in a way where there's a limited amount of detection. And I think there's probably – if I was going to acclimate a culture to the idea that they're not alone, I would do it slowly.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
That way you could have the same ultimate effect eventually and maybe – Maybe help them along their evolution as well, along their cultural evolution to like slowly introduce this concept that they're not alone and then do it over decades, which is exactly what's been happening. And the acceptance of it has changed from when I was a kid. You talk about UFOs. You're a fucking kook.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So this says, Merrick Garland said that the Justice Department seized an aircraft we allege was illegally purchased for $13 million through a shell company and smuggled out of the United States for use by Nicolas Maduro and his cronies. What business is that of ours, though? This is what I don't understand. Like, if it was purchased through a shell company... Then it was purchased. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Straight up kook. And then the Bob Lazar story came around and everybody was like, hey, wait a minute. is that guy telling the truth? And that was like 89, but still seemed like bullshit. And then there was a bunch of questions about his education background. Ah, bullshit artist.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But then over time, more people have seen enough things like Commander David Fravor and more people have seen things that like have no explanation whatsoever. And, You start hearing stories from high-level people about retrieved vehicles and this and that. It's more and more and more and more and more normal people talking about it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And more and more professors at Stanford and the New York Times in 2017 print a story and respected Air Force pilots are coming out and talking about it. It's a different world. And it's a different world just over a few decades. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. I haven't either. But also, I haven't seen anything, right? Right. These are unique experiences. And the problem with unique experiences is... Everyone has to just sort of trust you unless you have some kind of evidence. Everyone has to trust you, even if it's a whole town. It's a unique experience in the town. Mass hypnosis, bunch of bullshit artists.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
They're taking advantage of it for tourism like Virginia and Brazil. The entire town saw this thing. So, you know, I'm not sure if it's all bullshit. I think there's some bullshit mixed in with some real stuff. That's what I think. This is my conclusion over time. Because if you go back to like the Kenneth Arnold sightings in the 1950s, we didn't have anything that moved like that. Nobody did.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
There's no way anybody had anything in the 1950s that could shoot across the sky soundless, make no noise, skip like flying saucers is the way they described it. There was a – I think there was nine of them together. We didn't have anything like that. So maybe occasionally we're visited. Maybe occasionally they show themselves. And maybe they have been here.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Tucker thinks they've been here all along. He thinks they're a part of this world that we live in. They hide from us. Maybe they live in the ocean.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. If they had some sort of a drone that used gravity and could zip across the sky like 10x light speed, they wouldn't tell you about it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So you think the radar... When they use radar and they find these things, what do you think that is?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So you could force a blip onto someone's radar? Sure. You could hack their radar?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, let's talk about the David Fravor one, right? Because this is 2004, so it kind of limits our ability in terms of... You know, you have high technology, you have extremely powerful computers, you have a lot of stuff going on, but... We certainly don't have what we have 20 years later, right? Yep. We all agree to that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Now, they have multiple different mediums, multiple different types of evidence. They have visual eyewitness testimony, and more than one jet sees this thing. More than one pilot sees this thing. They all have the same story. This thing zips across the sky. They have the radar that shows that this thing went from 50,000 feet above sea level to 50 in a second. Mm-hmm.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
They have this thing moving at speeds on video where you see it move on video that would turn anybody inside it into jello. Yep. So it's whatever the fuck this is, it's doing something that we didn't think human beings could do. Yeah. Right. So you have three different ways of verifying that there is something there. You have the radar. You have video. You have eyewitness testimony.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
It says smuggled out of the United States. The plane was purchased from a company in Florida, the Justice Department said, and was illegally exported in April 2023 from the United States to Venezuela through the Caribbean. So are we not allowed to sell them planes? Is that what it is? Like, because we have a problem with them? Would they say how much it costs? $13 million? Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
You have this thing flying to the cat point where they were initially supposed to, when they were doing their training mission, they were supposed to meet.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So how would you fake a visual sighting from trained fighter jet pilots over the ocean?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
A projection. Yeah. And where would the projector be?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And how would you do that? What technology would enable you to make something? I mean, they even had a disturbance of the ocean floor or of the ocean surface rather.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So this would explain why these things are able to stay stationary in 120 knot winds because they're not affected by physical reality. Yeah. They're just images.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Okay, so he's got this $13 million plane, a Dassault Falcon 900EX, since been used to fly almost exclusively to and from military base in Venezuela. Justice Department said CNN reached out to Venezuelan government. You asked, huh? It seems like, though, there's more to it than that plane was illegal. You shouldn't have that plane.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Have you seen any of Gary Nolan's stuff on the metallurgy, on the different samples they've collected from these supposed down crafts that defy our understanding of how to create alloys and how expensive it would be to craft these things?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. I mean, I don't know who... See if you can find anything on Gary Nolan's samples. So Diana Pasolko, who had been on the podcast before, she had done some excavating of these areas where they purport that these things had crashed and they could still find pieces, which made me a little skeptical. As soon as I see you can still find – you didn't pick them all up? Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Why wouldn't they send someone out there to pick everything up?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
You would get every single scrap of that stuff. But if I wanted someone to believe that a craft was there, I'd leave a bunch of bullshit out in the field. I'd blindfold them like they did. I'd take them out to this spot. This is the spot. Look around. Oh, look, you found a piece. How do you not know where all the fucking pieces are?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
If this thing crashed 30 years ago, why didn't you go over this place with a fine-tooth comb? People do that for arrowheads. Why would you not do that for alien craft metal? Of course you would. Yeah. Also, there's the other problem. It's like, why are these things crashing?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
They're so fucking good. They can get here from another dimension.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
They get a hold of some fucking Jack Daniels. Next thing you know, they're crashed in the sand. They're having a good time in America. It's also, that's a big problem, too. A lot of these sightings are in America. If you look at the chart, there's sightings overseas, for sure. They happen all over the world, undoubtedly. But they happen a lot more here.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, we do. We have multiple alien problems. Yeah, we have multiple. That's another thing that they're gaslighting people on, the idea that they would let people come over here so they would vote. Of course they would. That's a great way to get voters. So these are these pieces that Gary Nolan claims to have had. And what does it say about these pieces?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
explosion. Okay, so this is from, how do you say that? Ubatuba? Ubatuba, Brazil? So this is a different, it might be a different pronunciation in Portuguese, but this is a different crash than the Varginha one. So there's been multiple sightings and things happen in Brazil, apparently. Brazil also has a little bit of an alien problem. Oh, yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But the Virginia one is wild. That's the most wild one.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Let me see that again. That could just be a low-resolution photograph.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. Sure. We're not there. We don't get to see these things. Also, even if you gave it to me, how's that going to help me? I have no idea. Yeah, I don't know what that is. Yeah. I don't even, even if you gave me the microscopes to look at it, I'm like, what am I seeing? Right. I'm seeing layers. Is that what this is? Right. How'd they do this?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. Yeah. Like if there really is a body. Just one. Everyone says there's a frozen body somewhere.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Let some people in. Okay, here it is. Alleged extraterrestrial metal from the bottom of a wedge-shaped craft in the late 1940s made of 26 alternating layers, 1 to 4 microns dark bismuth and 100 to 200 microns silver-magnesium-zinc alloy. Each of six pieces received from U.S. Army-sourced were formed with a curvature that tapered. This episode is brought to you by Moe's Southwest Grill.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
For years, officials have sought to disrupt the flow of billions of dollars to the regime. Homeland Security Investigations, the second largest investigative agency in the federal government, has seized dozens of luxury vehicles, among other assets, headed to Venezuela. So there's a U.S. sanction. So there's a sanction. This is it. The plane was seized in violation of U.S.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Chips come free with every meal, so go ahead and treat yourself. Stop by any of your Moe's Southwest Grill locations today and welcome to Moe's. Wow.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. That's the problem. Yeah, that's the problem. Also, the late 1940s. How many of these fucking things crashed? It's happening all the time. That's a weird thing, right? Think of how many Corvettes there are. Yeah. You don't find a whole lot of them on the side of the road crashed.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Nobody's finding Corvettes in the desert. Look, we found a Corvette. There's so many Corvettes. There's millions of them.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Oh, man. They're so smart. They can come here from other planets and they just boom.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Or maybe the only people that are the only intelligent life outside of this planet that's willing to do it, they're like Australian outback people. They're like those wild dudes who go overlanding. Australia has a big overlanding culture where they build up these vehicles and they take them off into the bush and they live off of them. My friend Adam Greentree does that. These people are wild.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Australians are wild folk. So maybe they're like the Australians of space. Overlanding and it doesn't always work out. Overlanding. They're these nuts that – there's people that go out in the desert for 30 days and they have enough food and water and they have a solar thing on the top of their rig and that charges their cell phone and they have jerry cans of petrol so they can keep going.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
traverse vast empty spaces and go to places that were known to have life I'd be all about that but it would only be the real hardcore adventurers that would take that chance and maybe those people are nuts maybe those alien people are nuts just like the human people are nuts that do that kind of stuff right they like to get into trouble winch themselves out wild people they got winches on their spaceships exactly
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, you've got to also think, here's another problem with the idea of them being biological. It's far more effective to send things that are non-biological into space, like what we're doing on Mars. We don't have a base on Mars, allegedly, but there's a lot of nutty people that believe we do.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But they do certainly have some robots that are on Mars that's gathering data, and they're doing it right now. And so you don't have to worry about radiation, all the things that kill people, make people sad. If we lose one of those rovers, who gives a fuck? Make another rover. Ship it out there. Fly it. Nobody cares.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
sanctions with Venezuela. And other criminal matters that we're looking at regarding this aircraft, they're going to find a reason to keep it. Like they stole all those boats from all those Russian cats. Yeah. Sorry, you're too rich and you know Putin, so give me your vote.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
If you lose 50 people, if you take 50 people and they die on your Mars trip, you're going to have Congress is going to be meeting about it. What are we doing? Why are we killing people? Let's not do that. And so as...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Time goes on and as technology improves and as sentient artificial intelligence becomes a better option for sending some intelligent robot to gather data, why would anybody go through space as a living creature? It seems stupid.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
That's the thing. Humans live in the Amazon. True. Humans don't live on Mars. It's way simpler to send a robot to Mars.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. But... But it's definitely a potential reality. And if it was possible, it would be a good move if you wanted to hedge your bets.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Which is Elon's position on this. Yeah. You know, that we're in danger of the human race going extinct from a variety of different things. Not even our own fault. It could be a bunch of different things. Asteroid impacts, super volcanoes. A lot of stuff can happen right here that kills us all. Space weather.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Oh, yeah. Fucking some supernova. Too close. Sorry. Everything's cooked.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And maybe that's what happened to Mars, which is also part of the problem. Because Mars at one time had an atmosphere. Mars at one time had liquid water. We don't really know what happened.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And we're really looking at a very brief amount of time that we can measure in terms of human experience. It's so brief in terms of what we know about what human beings have experienced. And then we have to go back to like core samples. You have to go back to, oh, it appears that there was Earth one and Earth one was hit by another planet. That's how we get the moon and then the moon.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
What a crazy thing that this thing stabilizes us. It's in the exact same right position, exact right size to make sure that we can exist as we exist right now. It's like somebody put it there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
It's a beautiful thing, but it's. It's kind of kooky. It's almost like someone put it there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Don't you think now, though, most people, I feel like genuinely most people are aware there's more to the story? Every story. Everything in the news. Every time something comes up, people are like, what's the whole story here?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. Or, yeah, it's odd, but that's also why there's not life everywhere.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And this does happen. And when it does happen, then you get some life.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But until it happens and the variety of temperature changes over the course of the seasons is just too vast for what we understand as biological life to survive. But then – or at least intelligent – It's not just biological. It has to be intelligent. It has to be able to manipulate its environment. It has to be able to record the previous thoughts in history, develop language.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And it's really tough to do that if you're in an environment and you've adapted to an environment that can vary by 300 degrees.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
You have to have food. You have to have food and you have to have your feet up and go, why are we here? Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
exactly this is why this kind of thought emerges once people sort of settle down yep and get some food start herding some cattle and go hey stars are kind of crazy yeah you ever looked up instead everybody's just looking in the bushes for what's going to kill them what's going to eat me you know it's funny i've spent a lot of time watching animals they don't look at the sky oh that's interesting it is interesting that is very interesting that's very interesting
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, we look outward and we look inward, which is really like next level, right? Like we look at microscopes and go, what is going on here?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
We're all filled with bacteria. This whole thing is nuts. Like we're not even an individual. Right. We're an ecosystem. We're individual ecosystems. And the healthier your ecosystem is, the healthier you are as an individual because you're not really an individual.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Hmm. But what about medication for people that have like type one diabetes?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So you think there's an environmental reason for type one diabetes?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Which is just madness. So the reductionist view of just give them a shot of this and a pill of that, like, well, there's a lot more going on here.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And both those ways are good for the people that are running scams.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. The problem is we want you to be hooked on a medication because then we can prescribe that to everybody, and then you have the Sackler family.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
That's a good point. And the problem is... Right now it is. And so we have to figure out how to regain control of that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, which is more important because those doctors believed it. They thought that it was true. I was just talking to a doctor recently that regretted taking it, and they really believed. Yeah. They believed. They believed they were telling people what to do, and now they're injured. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, because if you don't know what's true and what's not true, you're like, oh, geez. And then you get cynical. Oh, it's all bullshit. This whole system is rigged. Then you just go fishing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And then they have this practice where they've told people, this is what you should do, and then a bunch of people did it. Yeah. They got all fucked up and now they're in a situation where it's not just that they got fucked up but like how much time they have left. Like how many of these people are going to drop dead over the next five, ten years? Yeah. Because it's not just one.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
It's not just two. There's probably going to be a bunch. There's a bunch of people out there with like real myocarditis. There's a bunch of people out there that have blood clots. The D-dimer, there's this doctor on Twitter the other day was talking about how it's very rare that he uses an D-dimer test on unvaccinated patients and finds blood clots.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But he finds a ton of them on vaccinated patients. Yeah. And some of them are micro blood clots. Some of them are significant, but that they find quite a few.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
There's so many people out there that are still all in. I've found some lady in my timeline. I don't follow her, but she was talking about how disturbing it is to her that children are not being vaccinated and that COVID is killing kids and the reports that she has of child death. And she was talking about how she wears a mask everywhere.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And then there's all these people in the comments that are commenting on that. I only go to places where I know there's going to be minimal amounts of people. I always wear a mask. And they were all like it was some weird echo chamber where they were all terrified still of what is now like a cold.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
It's not a cold to you, right? When you got it, it was rough.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. It's actually beneficial to them because then you have a smaller number of people that are voting. So essentially in the 2020 elections, it was the largest ever win, right? The Democrats got 80-something million votes, which is – so let's say – even if it was 50-50.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. Did you see Chris Cuomo on Patrick Bet-David's show admit that he's taking ivermectin now?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
He admitted it. He admitted his doctor has him on ivermectin for long COVID. And he kept distinguishing the difference between long COVID and vaccine injuries. Like he said, had some sort of a vaccine injury. Then he was talking about how ivermectin is not good for COVID, but it's good for long COVID. And I'm like, what is long COVID? Long COVID is not even a thing. Like, stop saying that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Like, you're fucked up because either of COVID or you're fucked up because of the vaccine. One of those two things happened where you got damaged. Calling it long COVID is weird because it's like saying you're still sick from COVID. That's not really what happened. Okay, if you get pneumonia and you get lung damage, you don't have long pneumonia, right? You had damage to your lungs.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
It's not long COVID. So you're either taking ivermectin because your doctor said, like, what benefit would ivermectin have on long COVID? Like, what does that mean?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Pierre by Pierre. You're talking about Dr. Pierre Corey. Yep. Did he lose his license or something?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But they are punishing him for- For talking about a beneficial medicine that happens to not be patentable.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
That's crazy. Yeah. It's diabolical, really. It is diabolical. So what would be the mechanism as to which ivermectin would help these people?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So somewhere in the neighborhood of 160 million people, how many people are women and – I mean how many people with children, women can vote? What am I saying? Yeah. How many people are children, rather? Oh, jeez, I have no idea on the percentage. Under 18. It's probably in the 30%. So that's a pretty high turnout. Yes, if that was even the turnout. If it was real. Yeah, that's the problem.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But isn't it bizarre when people that have been vaccinated not once but multiple times and had side effects from the vaccine that they'll report openly? We'll talk about it and say it's long covid while they're still suffering. It's almost like they alleviate themselves from any of the responsibility of making a terrible choice.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And it goes away quick. That was the other thing they kept saying. It's temporary.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. And they also pushed out a narrative that you get more myocarditis from the virus rather than you do from the vaccine.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. Well, what you do is get you get high troponin levels. Right. And I see Mahaltra explained all this is that when you test for that, you can assume if a person is suffering from a viral infection that they will have high troponin levels. But it doesn't mean they have myocarditis. Right. So you're calling it myocarditis without actually doing an MRI on the heart.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Explain the whole thing with the lipid nanoparticles so people understand why they cause damage.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
We have no idea. Therein, that's the problem with the whole cynical game. Because I'm not convinced. You know why I'm not convinced? Because everybody wants me to be convinced. When they yell at you, if you ask a question, like, hey, one of the things that I've always said, and everyone sort of agrees with this.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And so these injections, which were supposed to stay local, is it because that they didn't aspirate that they get into blood vessels? What is the reason why it gets through the entire system?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
I mean, literally everyone, even people that think that the election was 100 percent legitimate. the percentage of voter fraud is never zero, correct? And they're always like, yes. No one can say it's zero. It's not zero. There's a bunch of slippery people that get arrested on both sides of the aisle. Republicans and Democrats get arrested for election fraud. It's a real crime.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And that seems so straightforward that I can't imagine that they were showing people doing it any other way on television.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Even when they did the president. Remember when they injected him on television? Stuck it right in there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Are you suggesting that that was deception and they didn't give him this lifesaving vaccine?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
I don't think so. I suggested it back then and I got called a kook. But I was talking about... There was a lot of people that were talking about being injured, and they were getting attacked. Remember when they were going after Eric Clapton? Yeah. Remember that one? Oh, yeah. That was horrific. I mean, full-bore attacks on Eric Clapton. I mean, calling him the most hurtful words, an anti-vaxxer.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
He's always been a terrible person. I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And how can you rationalize continuing to have these companies exempt?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
It doesn't make any sense. Yeah. Especially if they're that profitable. Because we know that if they're profitable, they're going to keep selling stuff.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
The idea that they commit all these other acts of fraud and deception, but when it comes to elections, Brett, that's a sacred institution that we don't violate at any cost.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. Yeah, because there's just too much room for fuckery and profit. When they know that something is profitable and they know they can get away with it because they don't have any liability at all, they're going to fuck with you. They're going to gaslight you. They always have because you have two different types of people, right, that are involved in any kind of medication.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
You have the scientists and the clinicians that develop these things and create these things, and then you've got the money people. And the money people, they're not even scientists. What those people are interested in is making the most amount of money for their company. In fact, they have... A responsibility to their shareholders. Right. To make a ton of money. Absolutely.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
To make more money every year. So if they know that they can get it, it's their job as CEO to push that shit through. Why do you have all those connections and all those relationships if you don't utilize them to help our company? Isn't that why you get a fucking gigantic salary every year as a CEO of a pharmaceutical drug company? Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And don't you understand the relationship that we have with the FDA and the CDC has been – we have cultivated this relationship forever. So we have a revolving door to make it nice and easy. So the people that are in charge of regulation, they get a nice sweet job, a nice sweet golden – we got it locked in. We got it locked up. Let's sell this shit. Sell it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. Anything, anything across the board. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's just bizarre that we let that slip through because they had decided at one point in time that vaccines create so many problems. There's no way they could sell these and be profitable and have legal responsibility. And our government was like, all right, all right, no responsibility.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. Explain when this happened and how it happened to people so they understand that this is this is an issue that came up because of problems from vaccines.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yes, which is right now pretty fucking insane. There's so many of them. They give them to them so quickly, like from the moment they're born. They want to bang them up with vaccines. And it's incredibly profitable. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
People who are kind people, who are intelligent people, would never imagine there are human beings that are willing to profit off of injecting babies with things that may very well fuck them up for the rest of their life. They're like, there's no way. No one's that evil.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Oh, well, you look at just the history of vaccines themselves. You read turtles all the way down or dissolving illusions. You're just like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Right. What? What happened? Because all our lives... Vaccines are the most important invention. Vaccines saved countless millions of lives. Vaccines are the way we can be safe today.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So that was one of the dirtiest tricks about this mRNA technology, that they piggybacked on an old word that already had pass. It already had a hall pass.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But wait a minute, because isn't allergies have always existed and they existed before even vaccines.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
There's nothing in the literature about vaccine or about allergies before vaccines.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
No. Sometimes dogs are, but dogs get vaccinated to high heaven too.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Have you seen that they're calling for a ceasefire in Gaza so that they can vaccinate for polio? Yes, I have seen that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
You're going to not blow people up temporarily so they can keep them from a disease? Do you know the statistics of when people get polio, how much of polio is asymptomatic? Do you know the statistics?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
I was going to give you the number. It's 95 to 99% asymptomatic.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
I had read this thing that was connecting DDT as well.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Lots of cases of it in rural areas where people sprayed...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But have you seen in New York City, they're spraying pesticide in the sky to kill the mosquitoes that might be carrying the West Nile virus?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Mosquitoes. They're spraying pesticide. They're letting people know, we will be spraying at 8 p.m. Stay inside. Limit your exposure to the pesticide. And they're driving trucks down the street that are just spraying pesticide. So we don't learn. Right. And isn't that disease, West Nile virus, isn't that like 80% of the people, it's almost nothing?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, not only that, they've established this narrative that it's imperative that the Democrats win to save democracy. Right. So the Verdi made all of these statements that it's more important for them to win than anything. More important than anything. More important than having primaries. More important than letting the people decide who the representative is.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And so I've been looking to find the videos of them spraying that shit in New York City because it's it's very Orwellian. It's very like, how do we not how do we not know to not do this anymore? Like this seems like a crate. Look, they're driving down the street spraying. Look, there's mosquitoes. We got to kill them. So they're spraying at the back of this fucking truck.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
By the way, you're not killing anything. You're killing what's on that street. What about what's in between the houses? What's in the fields? What's in the park? What's at the lake where they all breed?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Six confirmed cases. We need to start spraying. One of them was Dr. Fauci. Right. He was hospitalized, Brett.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
More important than having live actual conversations, interviews that aren't edited on CNN. Instead, they have a 40-plus minute one that's edited down to 18 minutes. Like, what? Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, and then look at a guy like Fauci, who was one of the rare few that was hospitalized, and he's had six shots, according to him.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
We're also recommending it to people that already have natural immunity, which is the most bizarre thing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
The most bizarre, because there's no science that backs that up. It doesn't make any sense, and yet we're still saying to these people, you've got to get your boosters. This IgG4? IgG4. IgG4. What does that stand for?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And why does this, what is it about the mRNA shots that causes this to happen?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
We just know measurably people who have more of them have this.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But was there any literature that indicated that this was going to have this effect before they rolled out the vaccines, or was this just an unfortunate byproduct?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
It doesn't make any sense, and it's one of those things, again, that you're forced into agreeing with just out of fear because people get very aggressive with it, just like people were super aggressive about the vaccine. I hate seeing people – die because they made a poor choice.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So if weapons manufacturers were involved in the creation of a virus... What, especially a virus like a respiratory virus that could go across the entire population of the planet and did, what would be the use of something that only kills old people and overweight people?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
You're saying it's bioweapons research that created this virus, but not that the virus was actually a bioweapon.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But there's something insane about how many people were like pro-vaccine advocates that were shaming people and angry at people. And now they're dead. And they're not dead because they ran their time and they got old and they died. And it's unfortunate, but it happens to all of us. No, they're dead young. Like a lot, a lot of people, not one, not 20.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Right. So the Wuhan lab was a Chinese-based weapons lab, bioweapons lab?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And also the fact that this funding was stopped in 2014 by the Obama administration, but then Fauci restarted it under the Trump administration. And there's no... There's no specified goal in terms of, like, what's the positive benefit for society if this research is done. There's a huge possibility that it leaks, and it's incredibly detrimental, which it did.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But there's also, even though they were working on this stuff for so long, there was no cure whatsoever. For COVID? For the thing that they created.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So if you're going to create something that could potentially damage the human race, so you're worried about what would happen if there really was a natural spillover, and this thing really did come through a pangolin or whatever the fuck it did, and then got into people, we need to figure out a way to save people. But there's no solution.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
They were working on this stuff forever, and they didn't have a solution.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And the way you would use ivermectin is upon initial infection, it's very quickly you give it to people? Yeah. So there's a certain point in time where after the infection it's not going to be effective anymore?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
We don't even know what the real numbers are because it's not something the mainstream media covers because they've all been vaccinated, too. And they're probably freaking the fuck out, too.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, don't you think the most obvious answer would be there was a pathway to extreme wealth? If you're going to have a vaccine that is paid for by the government, not only that, the government profits off of, right? So they own patent, right? They own a piece of Moderna, right? So they sold these vaccines to themselves, essentially. They made incredible money.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
amounts of them, they distributed them all over the world, insane amount of profit, and then forced people to take them, and then ignored all evidence that there was other medications. In fact, demonized those medications publicly, like what they did on CNN.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
That's the demon showing its eyes, what they did on CNN and all those networks when they were talking and calling it horse dewormer, despite the fact that it had won the Nobel Prize for use in humans. All that stuff, the most obvious answer would be profit because you look at the amount of money that was generated. How much money did they make? How much money was generated by Pfizer? Let's ask.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Let's take a guess. How much money do you think was generated by Pfizer and Moderna between 2021 and 2023, which is like the peak years where people are taking it? It's kind of tough to talk people into taking it now, but there's a bunch of believers, and I follow a few of them on Twitter, that are all in. Take a guess. How much money do you think they made?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
2021 and 2023. I think 2023 was the first year it really dropped off.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
I'm going to guess between the two of them, I want to say $90 billion. That's what I want to say. That's my guess.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
How much up? Okay, let me try again. $200 billion. It's a little over $100 billion.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. So over $100 billion. Yeah, but that ain't nothing. That's a lot of money.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
It's not? Not. But you don't think that's enough money for them, first of all? I don't think it's what they were targeting. You have this wonderful thing called the emergency use exemption, right? Yeah. And the only way to allow people to get away with the emergency use exemption is you have to have some sort of proof that nothing else works. Yeah, I know.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
If you have another effective medication, you don't get emergency use authorization, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, did an episode of news radio with him. Super nice guy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Let's pause real quick because I have to pee and we'll come back right into that because I want to know the whole thing and I can't be thinking what happened. I totally get it. All right. We'll be right back. All right. And we're back. So we were at the emergency use authorization. Yeah. And you think that that wasn't necessary and they could have gotten it through anyway.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But doesn't that also make sense that the emergency use authorization would have to be in place in order for them to implement this? Because you're always going to, like you said, the lack of a control, right? If everybody gets vaccinated, you don't know what the hell happened. You blame it on COVID, which is why people who have been hit with the shots say they have long COVID.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But if you have no emergency use authorization and then people are allowed to make their own decisions and doctors are allowed to make their own decisions, there's a lot of – it's way easier to do it with this emergency use authorization. It's way easier to slip it through.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And the only way you could stop that is if all of a sudden – so emergency use authorization is supposed to only exist if there's not – some sort of a medication that currently exists that treats it, right? Otherwise, you're going to have to go through all the trials if there's another medication that exists.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So you demonize the medications, you sneak it through, you make everybody take it, therefore you lose the control, and now you've got this platform rolled out. Do you think that they didn't know to the extent of the damage that it was going to cause? I think they knew. You think they knew it was going to harm that many people?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
I see what you're saying. But the most important thing was rolling out this platform.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Well, they don't even want to consider the vaccine, which is so crazy. If you called it anything else, if it wasn't called the vaccine, if it wasn't for covid. OK, let's because covid became so it became so politicized. And it was like culturally so polarizing. Let's pretend it was for something else.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And so – Do you think that the blowback from all of this and the amount of people that are reporting vaccine injuries and the amount of discussion that's happening, especially online, about these things makes it more difficult for them to roll out that platform for other things?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And there was some medication and the people that were taking that medication were dropping like flies. They would 100% make a correlation and they would make it publicly and it would be in the news. Of course, it might not actually be in the news today because this is part of the problem with what we're dealing with, with advertising and the media.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
The only way you're going to develop new novel medications that are effective is commerce. You're going to have to have people profiting off of them, which is why they fund them. It costs a lot of money under the current climate. If you have FDA approval, it costs billions of dollars to achieve that. So you need people to be able to make money.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
is that there's so much revenue that comes from pharmaceutical drug companies that there's just a reality about them reluctant to print or put any stories on television that are negative.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But isn't people making money off these medications the real reason why stuff like this happens in the first place?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
When you say rare, what percentage do you think it is? 1%.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, I know. Isn't that funny? That was what was hilarious to me during the pandemic was people that were clearly not physically healthy saying that the only way that you could be healthy was to take this medication. That, to me, was bizarre. It was so bizarre because they weren't even considering taking care of their body.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
They were only considering taking this medication as if taking care of your body was foolish. Right. Which is so weird. Like when I had Hotez on, he was talking about his diet. I remember that. He's like, what do you eat? Do you ever work out? He eats junk food. He eats junk food and blasts himself with vaccines. Yeah. It's nuts. It's nuts.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. I mean, just the contradictory statements over the years and his stance on vaccines when Trump was president, his stance on the mRNA platform when Trump was president versus the immediate 180 that he took once Biden took an office.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
I think it's two. It's number two. It's the latter. With a little bit of number one that is necessary in order to be number two. I think if you're a part of a system and it's really important that you support all the people above you in the system and that you all work together and you're a good company man, you'll find profound ways to justify the things that you're saying.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And especially if you can use some science-y kind of talk and talk about diseases and inflate people dying and inflate numbers and inflate this and that. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Which is why they attacked me so hard. They don't want someone healthy. Get over it real quick and say, hey, you know me. I work out all the time. By the way, got over it real quick. That's how I did it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Absolutely. Yeah, there was no comforting people, no telling people, listen, it's not nearly as bad as we thought it was going to be. You're going to be fine. They didn't want to contribute to vaccine hesitancy because they wanted that money to keep rolling in. And the number, I mean, just the shift in that, imagine if they did.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Do you think in the future we'll look back on this and there'll be some sort of a shift in the way we discuss it? You know, there's a lot of things in history that during the time where they were happening, I'm sure people were all like the McCarthy era. Yeah. I'm sure people thought it was very important to root out these communists. But they didn't exactly understand.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Imagine if right away they said, you know what, this is not nearly as bad as we thought it was going to be, the way Bill Gates talks about it now. It actually mostly affected older people and people who are very vulnerable. Those are the people that really affected it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
The amount of profit they would have made would have been significantly less, and the enthusiasm for the platform would have been significantly less.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
But it's also the weird thing was, especially now because of Zuckerberg's recent statement, we now know for sure that what he was saying was that they were pressuring them to remove COVID-19 information that turned out to be true. So the government was involved in this whole thing because the government was probably being pressured by the pharmaceutical drug companies.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
So what's worst case scenario in your mind? With all the competing factors that are happening right now, what's worst case scenario?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
They're loyal. They're lovable. Just having Marshall around can make my day ten times better. I'm sure you love your dog just as much, and you want to do your best to help them live longer, healthier, happier lives. And a healthy life for your dog starts with healthy food, just like it does for us. There's a reason having a balanced diet is so important.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Like, hey, you're calling a lot of people communists. They aren't even communists. You're going after people that just went to meetings to find out what's going on. The world didn't exactly understand what that even meant back then. We look back at it now. The Red Scare is like a negative thing. It's a dangerous sort of negative aspect of our history.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
And what would be the way they would go about doing that?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
The First Amendment's dangerous. The Constitution's dangerous. Don't you see? Is it dangerous? They pose the question.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
How many FBI agents do you think are going to show up?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2198 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, violence is very different than sport. Yeah, good. Combat sports, violence is just a part of it. They're some of the nicest guys you ever want to meet.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
It competes for federal contracts. It has some advantages in the competition for federal contracts. And all of the profits go to Alaska natives. And it is finding itself in a very difficult situation. to navigate battle because of all of the successes of DOGE. So the Alaska Native Corporation is utilizing something called the 8 program.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
The 8 program is a program that gives advantages to disadvantaged people. And at some point, that ability to use the 8 program was granted to Alaska Native corporations. Well, the 8 program is now under attack by some large corporations, federal contractors who do not like competition from things like Alaska Native Corporations, and it is being portrayed as if it was based on race, which it isn't.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
It's mind-boggling, and there's also... And I have to say I'm just – I'm upset at the general pattern of a failure to recognize how right those of us who hypothesized that there was a racket that had overtaken our entire governance structure. We turn out to be absolutely right about this and no one's going to mention it? That's ridiculous.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Anybody can use it. It's not a race-based program. But because people are in a mood to dismantle all of this left-wing solution-making corruption, These mega corporations are finding it easy to target the 8 program and they are persuading members of Congress that it doesn't belong.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And this is going to be a tragic loss if this program, which works well, is dismantled in the fervor to go after all of the stuff that should never have been.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
It provides a mechanism for disadvantaged people to compete for grants. It's really not race-based.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
No. No, no. So they're two separate things. Alaska Native corporations are for Alaska Natives.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Exactly. We bought it for 50 bucks from the Russians. And then after the discovery of oil in Prudhoe Bay, the U.S. government realized that it could not afford to give the natives of Alaska... sovereign land rights because it was going to need to do things like put a pipeline to transport oil.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So instead of giving them reservations and sovereign land rights, it gave them some abilities to compete for federal contracts as Alaska Native corporations. So it's an interesting program that does a lot of good. But its connection to the 8 program now has the good that it does in jeopardy. And I don't know how many stories there are like that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But we need to be careful that our excitement about watching all of this nonsense torn apart doesn't cause us to tear apart things that actually are functioning well and don't suffer from the defects of the DEI madness.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Oh, that I couldn't tell you. That I couldn't tell you. We could look into it. It's easy to look up. It's the 8A program.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I do. Is this Grok? Is that what you're looking at there? Is that what that is?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So I'm not in a position to answer detailed questions about 8A. But what I would say is there are some good things. There are quite a number of success stories that this is exactly what we want for disadvantaged people.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. Not only a social safety net, but something that provides an opportunity. Hey, build a business. Right. This is what we want you to do. This is the mythology of our system. You know, pull yourself out of your disadvantaged state.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So anyway, we should we should be interested in maintaining those programs. At the same time, we find the stuff that's actual nonsense and get rid of it as quickly as possible. And that's going to be a delicate balance. So far, we're so we're early in this process and you're going to have, you know, big wins like the revelations about USAID.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But the day will come soon enough when we're talking about discussions where we actually have to do a cost-benefit analysis on the programs that are targeted.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, you may remember years ago, I used to say that I want to live in a country so good that I get to be a conservative. I'm a liberal because there's a lot of problems with the way our system works. But the objective of all of that progressivism ought to be a system that doesn't require intervention in that way, in which everybody does have access to the market.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And so people really can be responsible for You know, lifting themselves out of whatever.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
A fair system in which everybody starts out with the tools that allow them to take advantage of the market. That's great. And I want a system in which lazy people don't have money to spend and are motivated to become unlazy. Yeah. I don't want people profiting from destroying opportunities that belong to other people.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But if we had a system that was like that and everybody had the tools to utilize it, then we should want as little intervention as possible.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
It just feels different, I have to tell you. I don't know what's coming, but it's at least delightful not to know what to think. The cynicism that was required to understand what was going on two months ago is now no longer required. You actually have to think about... what you're told is coming down the pike and think, well, I don't know, is that a solution?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
As a cover story? I'm not even sure. Maybe it doesn't change anything. Obviously, this was a mechanism used to funnel money to all sorts of things that... We didn't vote on that don't make sense in light of our constitutional structure. And I'm you know, I obviously have concerns like everybody else about where this train takes us. But seeing that structure broken up is it's a huge relief.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Is it a negotiating tactic or is it a solution that's actually being proposed and would it work?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I have to say, I almost feel like it was worth the price of admission right there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, I am not a fan of Netanyahu's, as you probably know. My sense is that the relationship of Netanyahu to the Israeli population is more or less like the Biden administration to the U.S. population.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And this just so happened to put him back in charge. But in any case, to see him back on his heels again. That was a good sign. Now, I am, of course, concerned about the idea of – I'm not even sure I know what I heard, right? We're going to make Gaza into – It's going to be the Riviera of the Middle East. That was a pretty good impression.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
100%. And then I don't know if you caught Alex Soros reposting this claim that basically you have an unelected cabal wielding power. That's you.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, no, it's a very, very strange historical moment.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, I mean, again, you know, I said a lot of stuff over the years about the fact that our civilization had become a racket and the fact that we were living in the era of malignant governance and that basically I'm concerned as somebody who believes in good governance that
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
that there's almost no component of this that you couldn't remove and create an improvement, that that's not a message you want. I want a message in which we govern as lightly as possible, but we do it really, really well. And an era in which you can cut off any limb and the patient gets healthier, that teaches the wrong lesson about governance.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
It teaches the lessons that governance was a mistake to begin with, which it wasn't. Right. So...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, let's be honest about what the conservatives had right from the get go. there are problems that only competition solves. There are other problems that competition in something like a market is not well positioned to solve, but there's certain problems that there's no second best. It's only competition that works. And so when we talk about, well, what are we going to do for fact-checking?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
We're going to abandon the idea of fact-checking. What you want is is a vibrant, independent journalist sector in which people who spot the story early and people who articulate the story in the most intuitive and accurate way outcompete those who do a worse job. So that over time, what we get is journalism that you can't
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And that it reveals to us which government programs actually work, even if they don't sound reasonable at first glance. Here's what's really going on behind the scenes in this program. Right. And then journalism that exposes any kind of fraud. And I don't know about you, but as I was watching confirmation hearings.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
My sense was that the Elizabeth Warrens and the Bernie Sanders were dinosaurs who do not understand that the earth has just been hit from outer space and that they don't live in the world that they are so used to. That their corruption was immediately apparent. And they're not used to that. They're used to having a whole phony journalistic layer that covers for them.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And that layer is gone and the American public is awake and it's angry and rightfully so. And now it looks at Bernie Sanders who, you know, I remember the first time you and I spoke, you and I had both been Sanders supporters. And now to see that same guy again.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And that's exactly how this racket worked is that the ability to tax the American public and then effectively get us to pay for being propagandized, for being surveilled, that's the game. Yeah. I don't know what era we currently live in. Obviously, there's a lot that's confusing about what the Trump administration is up to.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Going after Bobby Kennedy and, you know, the feeble excuse, well, what if Bobby Kennedy becomes the head of HHS and people don't have access to prescription drugs? And it's like, dude, I just lived through COVID. It's not obvious to me that they wouldn't get healthier if they didn't have access to prescription drugs.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Do you realize how corrupt those companies are and how nonsensical their science is, the science that says that you actually get better if you take a statin based on some metric in your chart, right? So I'm not arguing that there aren't good pharmaceuticals. There undoubtedly are. But what's the net effect of our pharmaceutical-obsessed medical culture? It's not obvious to me that it's positive.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I think it may well be negative. And so anyway, again, I see Bernie Sanders and I see him reading from a script that is no longer relevant to the movie we're watching.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yes, and that is the tip of the iceberg. We do not have, just as we don't have a journalistic layer that exposes people in Congress who are lying to us and aspects of the government that are corrupt, we don't have a university system that can properly do science and can be relied on to tell us what the impact of a drug or a food additive is. is, right? The whole system is missing in action.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Everything that is supposed to evaluate something like safety or efficacy or analyze net effects, anything like that has been captured by the PR wing. And so the consumer is in no position to navigate a world like that. And we know that this encompasses everything. How many people's doctors are pharma-skeptical? Right. Your doctor should be very pharmaceutical.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I don't know that this drug is actually a benefit to you, but know that the doctors have become pushers.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. Almost all of the doctors who were any good found themselves chased out of a job or with jeopardy to their license or slandered in the media. And, you know, I'm sure you're in the same position. Those are frankly the only doctors I trust at this point were the ones who were willing to pay a price to tell me the truth.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
No, that should be your first question, Doc, is how did you do over COVID? Yeah. And if they have nothing interesting to say, I would just turn around and walk out the door.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, I find that bad, but at least I know how to interpret that. What I don't understand is what I'm supposed to do with the doctor who did recommend the shots has stopped recommending them and has not. Talked about it. Said something about the change in their perspective.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But I don't think any reasonable person could be unhappy that we are exiting that era.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
100%. It is a test of integrity. And you wouldn't want to go to a doctor that didn't have high integrity at a moment like this. Your doctor needs unusually high levels of integrity and what we've seen is unusually low levels. And the same thing with social media influencers, as you called them.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Anybody in the public sphere should go back and they should do an accounting of what they said, what they thought, how they got there, how that played out in the end, when they changed their mind, and what they said about it publicly.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Right? I must say I'm constantly in a battle with the ultra cynics who claim to have gotten everything right during COVID because basically they never believe anything. It's not a method. You got lucky.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Right, you got lucky. You stumbled into a full con game. You stumbled into a con game, and yes, you didn't buy it, but that's not a demonstration that you know how to think through the next one. Right, correct. It doesn't demonstrate anything.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So what I really want are people who had a good track record and who know what mistakes they made and know how not to make them in the future. Those are the people that we should be paying attention to.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
A hundred percent. Yeah. Well, I think what we have seen over our, you and I are about the same age, what we have seen over our entire lifetime is that elections can change the jerseys, but they just swap, you know, who's in power and who's out of power. Well, the point is the system is in power and, you know, the people in the
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
The roles to deliver the speeches change, but they're just basically trading off. And so I have the sense that you and I are now watching the first the outcome of the first genuine election since 1963.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Right. And it changes the feel of this in two ways. One of them is just unfamiliar to us because we've been watching theater for our entire lives and being told that it was the transfer of power. And the other is that there's a lot of...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
pent up need for change because you've effectively had a cryptic power structure that never gets displaced, that has gotten so entrenched that rooting it out takes, frankly, an extraordinary, in every sense of the word, person like Donald Trump.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, so, you know, Heather and I took a lot of flack after the assassination, the first assassination attempt of Trump, where we both perceived, I think we were actually perceiving this before, but the assassination attempt really kicked it off. We perceived that this was a different person than the first administration's.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Trump, that he had matured and he had been forged by all of the lawfare that had been deployed against him and that it had been good for him. And in fact, I hate to say this because I have my doubts, of course, about the election of 2020, but I don't think what he is currently doing would have been possible if he had won and been inaugurated in 2020.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
coen brothers kind of apocalyptic movie a poorly written poorly directed movie yeah with you know an extraordinary budget and almost no need to pay attention to continuity it was weird it was bad
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Look, I know this to be true because, you know, I tried to spark Unity 2020 and make it work.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
It's going to be the poppy seeds for bagels, I'm thinking.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And they even lied about us. They said that we were engaged in inauthentic behavior. Basically, they accused us of using bots, which we didn't. So anyway, that's the world we were in in 2020. And headed to a more controlling world. Right. And then in 2024, you know, there's what I think of as a continuation of the same idea, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, I have to say, in addition to being just overarchingly worried about what was going to happen to the republic and to the globe, I was personally worried about what would happen to people like you and me if we lost. Yeah, probably wouldn't be so good for business.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
There's, you know, Rescue the Republic was what it looked like in 2024. And the point is that actually worked. That was an organic unity movement. And it took advantage of the fact that, you know, Maha had already catalyzed as Kennedy and Trump had gotten together. And so that was huge.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Extraordinary group of human beings, all of whom I think took very real risks. Oh, yeah. At the very least with their reputations.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And it was a gamble. Each of these people, you know, Kennedy, Musk, Tulsi, they knew that they were taking that risk. And it was clear that they were motivated by Tulsi. That they actually, I mean, this is what a soldier does, right? You know that you're taking risks for something that matters more than you.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And, you know, to watch Elon do it, I think, also was just remarkable because, of course, in Elon's position, he could have done, you know, what Zuckerberg does, right? And he could have... played it safe and kept his options open and done what he was told. And then, you know, apologize for it later, sort of. Right. That wasn't what Musk did. He actually had the courage of his convictions.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
A, as many people have noted, his liberation of X set the stage for this election to even happen, that there wasn't anything you could put over on us that we couldn't unpack and crowdsource a better interpretation of on X. And even if most people weren't on X, it was enough that their narrative engine just didn't work.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, yes, and USAID is, of course, riddled through whatever international madness it is that caused us to open our southern border and facilitate an invasion through the Darien Gap. So seeing that structure laid bare, it almost feels like it can't be real. It can't have been this close to the surface, and yet here we are.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yes, and I think it's a little bit deceptive because its size doesn't quite explain its impact. But it's a little bit like the higher reasoning centers of the brain. Like there's a collective consciousness in which we figure out what we think is true. And it's been downstream of this amazing propaganda engine.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, we're now learning to spot the propaganda and to understand what it really means and to figure out what it's cloaking. And a lot of that is happening on Twitter because it can. And it's actually forcing, you know, Facebook to come around, right? Right. There's no pressure to start doing that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But once you have one, any social media platform that doesn't allow you to speak freely is at a competitive disadvantage. And so, you know, Elon freeing X actually liberated the others and they were beginning to move in the right direction, which frankly is part of why this era just feels different.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I am not informed. I am waiting for some sort of compelling evidence that something extraterrestrial is going on.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, I think you do have to wonder what the fuck is actually going on. On the other hand, I think there's a whole range of possibilities that don't involve anything extraterrestrial.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
You wouldn't... That would not be shocking. If there was something to cover, you might decide instead of trying to keep it under wraps, you would bury it in so much low-quality bullshit that nobody would be able to find it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Sounds right. I don't know the number offhand, but – What the fuck? Well, you have to realize that basically we had a shadow apparatus functioning and it involves all kinds of things. It involves payoffs to people who didn't deserve them. It involves contracting to entities that were necessary to get the work done.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, I must tell you, I'm skeptical that those vehicles are vehicles.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I'm having a deja vu moment here, or we've discussed this before. I don't know which it is, but the basic rubric is... Physical stuff displaces air, which means it makes noise when it moves. And I don't quite see the logic behind suppressing that fully. I don't see the capacity to suppress it fully. Who knows what I don't know. But my guess is if you had actual craft.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
moving around in the ways that people who have observed these things think they've seen it, that noise would be an inherent part of the phenomenon.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I'm not necessarily requiring engine noise. I'm requiring- Air noise, passing through the air.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Passing through the air noise that as the air collapses, as the craft moves, the air collapses behind it, that you'd hear something. You mean when it's moving fast? Yes, especially if it's moving fast.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So this is exactly my problem, is there's two realms. There's a realm in which I understand the physics of the universe enough that I can evaluate that claim, and then I can say, well... It's not obvious to me how you go through the water. The water has to be displaced. And water is denser than air in terms of how much matter there is, how many particles there are.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And therefore, it ought to be harder to move through than air. I would expect noise in the air. I would expect something similar in the water. And the fact that these things behave in a couple of different ways. One, they're silent. Two, they turn in ways that would challenge a biological critter profoundly. Three, they move at speeds that are improbable in light of what we understand.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Now, I'm not saying there can't be lots of stuff we don't understand. But what I'm saying is all of those things have a simplest explanation, which is that that craft isn't matter. It's a projection.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So I don't think we can properly understand what these numbers mean and what they're actually being used for. But it was a racket.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, that I believe we have. I'm not expert in it, but you can project from above or below onto material. It could even, I think, be done in clear skies, right? Especially if you had a substrate, and I don't know whether to go down this road. Let's go down that road. What do you mean? Well, there seems to be a certain amount of experimentation with particles being projected
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
released from aircraft for some reason. I would assume and have long assumed that there is experimentation with altering the albedo of the Earth so it reflects more light back into space.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. And I don't think, you know, one of the things that we many of us came to understand during COVID about proposals is that very often the proposal comes after the experiments have already begun. Right. You propose an experiment that you've already done and then recoup your your investment when the grant is given.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So anyway, I believe that there's been some experimentation with releasing particles. I think it's an insane experiment to run. It's diabolical, frankly. You have no right to alter the Earth's atmosphere without us at least having a global public discussion about the consequences. I believe this is an informed consent violation and that I take those things very seriously.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Those were hanging offenses at the end of World War II. But nonetheless, if you drop particles into the atmosphere, those particles are largely not visible, right? They have impact. But could they be used to project a craft that wasn't onto a substrate you can't quite see? I don't know.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, let's put it this way. First of all, there are always particles, even if what we're talking about is air.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So let's just say, first of all, this is where I would want a robust university system and a robust journalistic system to dig. Because there's a lot you need to know that you could figure out that would tell us whether or not what we're looking at are really distant craft moving at tremendous speeds or it's an optical illusion. Let me just give you an example.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
You wouldn't necessarily know how far away the object was and therefore you wouldn't necessarily know how fast it was moving. You'd misjudge it. And to give everybody an example that they will have familiarity with. I was driving down the highway at one point. Rainstorm, but the sun was shining and I saw a rainbow. And I've thought a lot about rainbows. They're pretty interesting.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And I realized that I could tell that although the rainbow looked to be 10 miles from me or something like that, it was actually feet from me. And I could tell that because the rainbow came down onto the road and I could see it in front of the guardrail. Continuous rainbow where the parts up here look like they're closer to the mountains in the distance.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But when I see where it's continued down into the spray off the road, it's actually 10 feet away, right? So the mind is building a model of stuff. And if you give it the wrong cues, it'll totally misunderstand the distance that it's looking at. To the extent that a rainbow is at a distance, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So if you had a robust journalistic apparatus, what it would want to do is figure out, well, if person A was standing in location X and they saw a craft moving at what appeared to be 200 miles an hour, at a distance of five miles, then the question is, well, who else would have seen it? And if we go and we ask people who were standing in those locations, did they see it at all?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Because if they didn't, then maybe the thing was inches away from the person being projected locally, right? And they only felt like they saw something at a great distance.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, I'm going to share credit with Ben Davidson for this, but the basic point is PSYOP until proven otherwise. And PSYOP until proven otherwise, I think, is a very functional way to approach this because...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Depending upon what kind of program we're looking at, and there obviously is governmental involvement in whatever it is, either concealing real stuff or pretending that it has real stuff that it's pretending to conceal or whatever it's doing. There is every possibility that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
There are sort of layers of awareness, and at the bottom layer, there may not be anything alien at all, but it may be that people fairly close to the center have been shown something I mean I don't understand what the purpose of any of this stuff is either.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Talk to us about the aliens and when they started to visit and what it is they seem to want and whether they're still here and whether they're going to be back and whatever we know. That's what I would do. Any excuse that says the public can't handle it I think is just nonsense.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But I have to say, as much as this is shocking... I wasn't surprised. I thought that effectively our entire system had been turned into a racket and that we were basically being fed a cover story from it. And it's weird to now have the evidence of this, but...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
All right. Well, as long as we're just sort of fantasizing about wild stuff here, imagine that Donald Trump were to be elected president for a second time and he was pissed off and he was to nominate Tulsi Gabbard for the director of national intelligence. And then she was only...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
hours or at most days away from being confirmed by the Senate, then when she gets in, presumably she wouldn't have investment in all of those years of lying about this. And she might feel obligated to tell us in the public what the hell's going on.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
100%. Also, you know, we've got Elon on a separate track. He's going through the books and finding all of the nonsense. And so presumably the effort to hide whatever it is, either to manufacture the impression of UFOs or to hide what we know about them, that's going to have a budget somewhere.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So there is the question of what they were trying to distract us from, if that was their purpose. But I also find, this is again... become a kind of theme in my life. This is also a violation of informed consent.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I think it was apparent that whatever had taken over our system wasn't interested in the well-being of average people, that it was interested in the power of the state to take people's resources and redistribute them, and that that really is what's been going on for most of our adult lives.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
If those were our drones and they were nightly traumatizing the residents of New Jersey and pretending they didn't know what it was, that's a de facto experiment that they were running on the citizens of the country. They have no right to do this shit.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I, you know, one doesn't know until you see this stuff enacted where it's going to lead. But my sense is I don't want my government lying to me ever again with the excuse that it's for my own good.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, that is, in fact, exactly what we have discovered. And why it was so hard to convince people of this before the evidence for it emerged, I don't know. But all you needed to realize was that some rogue element had decided that it had the right to engage in the same kind of regime change bullshit domestically that it was already feeling entitled to engage in globally.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And the rest makes perfect sense. And of course, you would get an entrenched cabal that would come up with a justification for fending off a challenge at the ballot box that it could portray as somehow a threat to American democracy. Of course, it would do that. Right. It has to be forbidden to do that. And the penalties have to be extreme for attempting it or it will happen.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, yes, but I also am not sure that I buy the international rationale either. And I think as much as I understand it, right, we have to be mature about what's possible in the world and what implications it has for the republic. On the other hand, to the extent that we believe in self-determination, where exactly does our right to interfere with other people's self-determination come from?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Further, I do think that there's a kind of end state for the governance structures of Earth. That what we have in the West, an agreement on a level playing field, an agreement to compete with each other by attempting to produce better stuff rather than by interfering with our competitors' ability to get to the market, that that view of the West is
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
is superior and it is also contagious, that it makes for a safer, more rewarding, fairer less warlike system. And therefore, there's a very good reason for people to want to adopt it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, I'm not arguing that you just go and live your values. What I'm arguing is that those values are superior, that they are sticky and contagious when they take hold, and that anything you do where you compromise on the idea that that's the objective – is to get Western values to catch on across the world.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Anytime you decide you have a right to do something else, you're dragging us onto a slippery slope, okay? You will disrupt other people's self-determination, you have no basic right to do it, and it will eventually come home and be done to us.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So I don't know what the sophisticated way to make it maximally likely that other societies take on those values is, but I know that it was happening organically without us having to do terribly much. And so the real question is, how do we make that a winner so that it organically catches on, and how do we reinforce it when it does?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I am loosely paying attention to the AI competition. I'm conflicted about it. I don't think there's anything we can do to regulate AI competition that doesn't make matters worse. I'm very concerned about the outgrowth of...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
This transformative technology, I think even the most mundane disruptions that will come from it, things like disruptions to the job market, are going to be a profound challenge to our society, and we're going to have to come up with an approach that allows us to tolerate the disruption.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
There's that, but I must say on my darker days, I had concerns even beyond that. You probably should. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yes, it was an overdue reaction. The cover story that what we were up to was writing past wrongs was so pernicious and pervasive that it was hard to get our footing to challenge it. But it shouldn't really be surprising that that movement wasn't organic. Of course it was induced. It was a cover story for theft. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, let's talk about the ultimate source of this problem. Our ancestors were our hunter-gatherer ancestors, even our farming ancestors, lived in a world where The world itself provided the incentive structure, right? If you didn't work hard enough as a hunter-gatherer, it manifested as hunger and jeopardy. So people were naturally incentivized to invest in the right kind of stuff.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And the right kind of stuff is hard work in some cases where, you know, you pursue the materials that make your hut better, that procure more food for your family. Or it could be insight. where you figure out some way to do something better, so you make more with what you've already figured out how to get. That's a very natural structure, and it's what we neurologically are built for.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
The economy has some of that characteristic. The economy rewards hard work somewhat, and it rewards insight somewhat. But it also rewards cheating, and it rewards lots of unproductive behavior that actually destroys wealth but creates a profit.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. For example, it rewards gambling. It rewards interference, competition, all sorts of stuff. You know, destroying wealth is actually a big part of our economy. And the way the mythology of free market capitalism works, you're getting paid for producing stuff that enhances us all. But what fraction of the economy is actually dedicated to activities that destroy wealth?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
The production of porn, for example. In my opinion, that is highly likely to destroy vastly more wealth than it produces. But it's a very rich industry for a reason. What I'm getting at is we have a new problem with the AI component. Maybe it's taken the magnitude of the problem that we had and it's multiplied it by 10. But it's not a new problem.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
We are still trying to figure out what to do with the fact that you're taking an animal and Out of the habitat that properly inherently incentivizes it and putting it into an environment in which the incentives aren't really well built. And I agree with you.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Whatever sympathy I may have had for the idea of universal basic income is gone because I do think it would produce at best a kind of learned helplessness.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Right. So what we really want is a system in which whatever the new opportunities are going to be in the world where AI is available everywhere and very sophisticated, we want people to figure out how to leverage it on our behalf.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And mind you, we could have the same conversation before the World Wide Web, and we could talk about, well, what's it going to be like when you can source information from anywhere? What kinds of opportunities is that going to create? And can we incentivize people to figure out what those opportunities are? Yada, yada, yada.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So the AI version is the same problem, but at a different order of magnitude. So I don't know what the solution is about how you create that proper incentive structure, but we are going to be living in a world in which meaning and wealth are of a fundamentally different nature.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And we're going to be waking up to the magnitude of that theft for quite some time.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And what we want is for people to have the tools and the incentive to explore that world productively so that when they do it well... They end up economically enhanced. And when they do it poorly, they suffer a challenge so that they are naturally led by that world to find stuff that creates wealth for all of us. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Hell yeah. But again, this is another version where it's not like AI is – bad fit for the education system it certainly is but the education system has been garbage my whole life existed with an education system that was almost totally worthless and in some cases was counterproductive which is I think why Some of us folks with learning disabilities actually turn out to have an advantage.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
It's not that there's something good about having a learning disability, but if it breaks your relationship to school so school has less of an easy time programming you to be a cog, then you at least retain the potential to be something other than a cog.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, I'm really glad you're telling me this because back when I was a college professor before 2017, since I was a terrible student myself, I was fascinated by the students who had really high potential but were just not a good fit for school. So I was really interested in what made people smart, especially when it had nothing to do with school or happened in spite of school.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And your story fits perfectly here, in fact. What you describe is sort of the equivalent of a learning disability, right? Like suspicion that your teachers aren't all that and maybe you're not so thrilled at sitting there listening to them. Occasionally it sounds like you had a teacher who was pretty good.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Wasn't terrible. But for the rest of the time, you know, school was so busy dismissing me as, you know, not performing to potential was what it said every time on my report card, right? That it was just really demoralizing. And I remember sort of in the second grade... having a kind of choice.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I didn't know what it was that I was choosing between, but it was like, I can either surrender to their understanding of who I am, or I can stop respecting them. And so it created an attitude problem. Sounds like you had a similar attitude problem. And I wish I could give every student that attitude problem.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, but you also – I'm skeptical. That the vast wealth of information is inherently a good thing. Really? Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Because I know, like I said, I became very interested in what made people smart. And what made people smart was not libraries. What made people smart was an interaction with the world that rewarded them when they figured something out. And very often that was the physical world.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So one of the things I worry about with a kid who maybe is not getting so much out of school but they have access to an entire world of fascinating things on their computer is that it turns all of that stuff into an exercise in consuming information. rather than discovering. And so I would much rather see kids have access to a
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
you know, a wild world, a forest that's intact where they can go and discover things and those things aren't labeled and you don't know what it is and you don't know what it means. Or, you know, you try to build a structure, a tree house or something, and it tests your understanding of what the structure is, you know, that will hold you. And
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
That it is that feedback where you are not a consumer of the world, but you are a producer. You're interacting with the world rather than just seeing it represented. That is the most intellectually enhancing thing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Or not. I mean, unsafe enough that you develop sense, you know. But yes, I think ideally you would have access to both. So it would create the reward patterns in your mind that would cause you to think about how to be productive in the world. But I also think that the way the online world presents itself is strangely demotivating.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Because you see whatever social media platform you're on, you've got some 30-second clip of some person doing some utterly remarkable thing that I would have said until I saw it with my own eyes was impossible. That doesn't create a pathway to discovering what the person in question can do. What you're looking at is somebody whose abilities outstrips what almost anybody can do.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
OK, so this is something I saw yesterday. Guys riding down a ramp and launching themselves two or three stories into the air on a scooter and then turning around and dropping back onto the same ramp. You know, and of course, I think I saw Red Bull in there somewhere. Right. So it's like, first of all, you've got this corporation incentivizing people to take risks that aren't smart.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And then you've got an apparatus that you're not going to be able to build or approximate. And then you've got the person who leverages the apparatus better than anybody. And it's like, well, where's the opportunity for the viewer to be like, yeah, I want to I want to get in on that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, I think a Chuck Norris movie is probably a better tool. The admixture of people who are highly capable and people who get some of the thrill of the highly capable person just by viewing it is not as good as it might be. In other words, I think we've taken... all sorts of activities that people used to engage in. And we've found a consumable equivalent, right? Like sport.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
People used to play sports. Now most people who are into sports watch sports. They're consuming the sport rather than participating in it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Especially adults. Likewise, sex, frankly. Sex is a very important realm and it's a skill. The skill involves insight into your partner. And we've turned it into a consumable where you can chase your fetish or whatever and just watch it on a screen. And the point is that's actually not the same activity.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
That's where it goes. And, you know, if we take ourselves back, you know, a couple hundred years, music, music used to be something that people loved. did. Everybody sung and they whistled and many people played musical instruments. Now music is a consumable. And the point is the reward may be somewhat similar to listening to a really good song as it is to play a really good song on an instrument.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But the degree to which you've been robbed as a human being who is capable of producing music and you just, you don't have a thought of doing it because there's so much to listen to, that's not positive for humans.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, you know, when I was a professor, my thought was almost the entire job of education is about incentives. It's about incentives and motivation. It's not about delivering results. content. If you can get a student to want to understand something, most of the work is done, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So when I look at school, I can't believe how badly structured it is because the idea is effectively it's going to threaten you into learning something. That's not going to make it stick. It's not going to make you want to learn more. So my feeling is what you want is... you want to create a desire in the student to understand the thing, then your work is pretty well done, and then it's like play.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And if we took that approach to all of these things, So that you felt rewarded by producing music, even if it's very simple, right? Well, then you might pick up music for a lifetime and be generating it decades later, right? You should not be delivered a message about sex where sex is something that is supposed to be perfected.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
and therefore a person who's new to that realm feels inadequate and therefore is incentivized to abandon it and go watch it, there should be a recognition that actually this is something that you will develop over a lifetime and it's important that you do and you should want it because it's access to some of the most rewarding stuff there is. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So just getting getting the motivation built in the person so that they want to pursue it is all you really need.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, you're in the uncanny valley, and really what needs to happen in order that we don't reproduce the disaster of porn in 3D or 4D, it needs to become sophisticated to understand that you really don't want any part of that, even if it's very good, especially if it's very good.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, you know, I used to take a lot of flack as a prude. You? Yeah. Come on. Well, I'm not a prude. I'm really not. But I do take a very dim view of porn. It's like you're messing with something sacred and just don't, right? And, you know, porn isn't what you and I remember porn was when we were young, right? It's not pictures of naked girls. Right. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Instantaneously available. And it reaches almost everybody. Now. So anyway, I used to say very negative things about porn and I took a lot of flack over it. That is less and less true. I think people are beginning to realize how much damage it's doing to them, and there are a lot more people ready to acknowledge that whether or not they're in control of it in their own lives, they wish they were.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
They don't want it. I will say I have two boys, 18 and 20, and I believe neither of them is involving themselves with porn, and they report they aren't the only ones.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Right. When I think back to the video games that I played, which were, of course, you know, much cruder.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, when I was really young. When I was a kid in high school, I used to play Castle Wolfenstein on my Apple II. Remember that? Oh, yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But it was pretty cool. But here's the problem with it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yes. And I must say that there is also another aspect to this, which we have to be careful about, which is that the justifiable anger at discovering what it is that we've been dragged into as a nation is going to make it hard to see where the limits ought to be in terms of upending this stuff. In other words, at the moment, I'm cheering for the wrecking ball. Break this stuff up never again.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But think about, you know, a video game is an incredible tool for training the mind. Sure. Right? It trains you to just precisely time things, to have yourself in this mindset, to know exactly where you are in the game, to remember a sequence of moves, whatever it is. It's an incredible training engine because the incentive structure is there so that you want to get to the next level, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
It's like what schools should be doing except what does it train you to do?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
As soon as the next game captivates you, all of the skills that you invested in building are almost all wiped away. Now, maybe that's not quite true because all the first person shooters are the same. And so skills you develop in Halo work for I don't know what the others would be.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But nonetheless, the point is you're investing your ability to train your own mind into something that is guaranteed to be obsolete. That's not a good use of your time, even though I totally, you know, I did play video games.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But imagine that you decided to leverage that, that in fact, I mean, my feeling is school ought to look like a bunch of fun exercises and activities and puzzles that cause you to want to do it. It shouldn't have to be school. We shouldn't have to make you go. It should be structured so that you want to be there because it's exciting. It draws you in.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And so a video game, I'm not against them in principle because a video game could train you to do something or to think about something in some incredible way. But they just don't because the market is going to find the thing that brings in the maximum number of people and holds them to the greatest effect and causes them to want to buy the sequel.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Wisdom, I argue, is effectively delayed gratification. That, you know, figuring out that investment now, that doing something that doesn't feel good now results in a big reward later. That's a huge part of the key to life. And in part, that's what all of these consumer realms that are stealing from us are. are taking away.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
The point is, if you want to be investing in something and you're willing to pay the price of whatever unpleasantness or time or whatever it is that you're spending, and you've got all of these competing things that can give you a hit of dopamine right now, it's very hard to develop that skill.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
You know, Heather and I used to teach an exercise, something we invented called learn a skill, where we would have students define any skill that they wish to learn. It had only one requirement. The requirement was it had to be objective whether you had succeeded or failed. It couldn't be subjective, right? Okay. And the idea was not subjective.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
to get you to learn the skill, that was a collateral benefit. The idea was to get you to pay attention to how you develop a skill so that you would learn how your own mind learns and you could apply that to things that you wanted to learn later in life. But what we often found was that these students, these would have been millennials,
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
were very unrealistic about how much effort it would go, would be required for them to accomplish one of these things. And they would just get schooled by how much harder it was to build the thing they wanted to build or to program the computer to do the thing that they wanted to program it to do or to play the song that they were hoping to play.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Something had trained them that life was easier than it was. And that was kind of a tragic lesson.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yes, I think that's, A, I think we get a warped perspective because, you know, which names do you know? Well, you know the people who have succeeded in this realm, and you don't know all of the people who have invested heavily in it and not succeeded. Right. But on the other hand, the Internet as it stands is a training program for this. So in part, the reason...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
The reason that people become focused on the things that they become good at is because they get some early reward that causes them to return and try to do more. Right? Mm-hmm. But everybody is in these social media environments competing for likes. I mean, even just inadvertently, you don't want to put up a post and have nobody react to it. You hope they react and you hope they react positively.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So the Internet is training people to be influencers. Most of them are not going to make it. But, you know, it's like the sports stars who become the irresistible icons in certain communities because obviously that's important. You know, it's a whole different world of possibilities. So, you know, it brings everybody in.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, in this case, you've got everybody in a de facto training program to be an influencer and almost none of them are going to get there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
He said, well, he said a couple things. It was a little confusing. He said that, you know, we see evidence of adaptation, but we don't see evidence of evolution and that we've really gotten beyond the Darwinian model. We've essentially come to understand that it's not right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
It's an argument for intelligent design, I think. First of all, I want to clean up a little bit of what he said just so it's interpretable. I don't really think he means we see the evidence for adaptation but not evolution. That's not coherent. I think what he means is we see evidence for what we would call microevolution, but we don't see evidence for what we would call macroevolution.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
This is a... commonly believed thing in intelligent design circles. And so microevolution, we would talk about the way a creature or a population of creatures would change relative to their environment. If the environment gets drier, those individuals who are more drought tolerant will outcompete the individuals that require more water. And so we'll see the population change over time.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But, he's saying, we don't see evidence for macroevolution, which is the production of new species from old species. A monkey becoming a person. Yeah. We don't see big changes like that. Now- I don't want to bore your audience.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I am concerned that the right way to address Tucker's challenge, and as I said the last time I was on your show, when I heard him say it the first time, I reached out to him and I said, you know, you really ought to let me talk to you about what's actually going on here, and he welcomed it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
We still haven't sat down to do it, but nonetheless, he's open to hearing that he doesn't have it right, to his credit. But here's the problem. The correct response to Tucker, I do not believe, involves what most people want me to do in response to something like what Tucker said.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I think people want the. career evolutionary biologist to break out a bunch of examples from nature that make the case very, very clear so that they can relax. Tucker's concern isn't based in science, and they can go back to feeling comfortable that the Darwinists have it well in hand. That's not where I am. I could do that, but I don't feel honorable doing that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. The question is, how can we get a proper accounting, as you point out? Who the hell is factcheck.org?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I think as a scientist, I should not be in the business of persuading people. I want you to be persuaded. I want you to be persuaded by the facts. I want them to persuade you, but I don't think I'm allowed to persuade you. I think that it's effectively PR when I attempt to bring people over to Team Darwin.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Further, as I'm sure I've mentioned to you before, I'm not happy with the state of Darwinism in as it has been managed by modern Darwinists. In fact, I'm kind of annoyed by it. And although Tucker, I do not believe, is right in the end, there is a reason that the perspective that he was giving voice to is catching on in 2025.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And it has to do with the fact that, in my opinion, the mainstream Darwinists are telling a kind of lie about how much we know and what remains to be understood. So by reporting that, yes... Darwinism is true and we know how it works and people who aren't compelled by the story are illiterate or ignorant or whatever. They are pretending to know more than they do. So.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
All that being said, let me say I think modern Darwinism is broken. Yes, I do think I know more or less how to fix it. I'm annoyed at my colleagues for I think lying to themselves about the state of modern Darwinism. I think I know why that happened. I think they were concerned that a creationist worldview was always a threat that it would reassert itself.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And so they pretended that Darwinism was a more complete explanation as it was presented than it ever was.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
There are several different things that are wrong with it. The key one that I think is causing folks in intelligent design circles to begin to catch up is that the story we tell about how it is that mutation results in morphological change is incorrect.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
This is a very hard thing to convey, and I want to point out that if the explanation for creatures is Darwinian, that does not depend on anybody understanding it, and it does not depend on anybody being able to phrase it in a way that it's intuitive. Okay? I think I could probably do a decent job on those fronts, but if you happened onto the
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
A hundred million years ago, you would have found lots of animals running around, lots of plants growing. You would have recognized where you were and more or less what was going on. There's not a single creature on the planet that would have any idea what an abstract thought was. There would be no creature that had any inkling that there was even a question about where all this had come from.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And Darwinism would still be the answer. So somehow, whether Darwinism is the answer does not depend on anybody knowing it or being able to explain it. Here's the problem. Let's say that we went into the parking lot, and in one parking space there's an excavator, and in the next parking space over is a Maserati.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Now let's say we took those two machines and we tore them apart so that we just had a stack of the compounds that they were made out of, right? The rubber, the vinyl, the various metals, all that stuff. There would be differences between the excavator and the Maserati, right? They would just be made of some different stuff. And then there'd be a lot of stuff that they had in common.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Now, you could look at the differences in the materials that they're made out of, and you could say, well, the excavator is really good at, you know, lifting materials and moving them around, and the Maserati is really good at going fast on a paved surface. And those differences are due to the differences in materials that they're made out of. That would be wrong.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Probably you could take the list of materials that an excavator is made out of and you could give it to a bunch of engineers and you could say, I want you to make a Maserati, but you're limited to these materials. And they could do it. Wouldn't be quite as good because there'd be some places where the ideal material wasn't available to them anymore.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But there's no reason you couldn't make a Maserati out of the stuff. Or a sports car. Right. Yeah. So... What that means is there are chemical differences between an excavator and a sports car, but they're not the story. of the differences in what those two creatures do. The chemistry differences are incidental.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Now, when we tell you that the differences that a bat became a flying mammal because it had a shrew-like ancestor, and that shrew-like ancestor had a genome spelled out in three-letter codons, those three-letter codons specify amino acids of which there are 20.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
and that the difference between the bat and the shrew is based in the differences in the proteins that are described by the genome, we are essentially saying that the difference between the bat and the shrew is a chemical difference. It's not a simple chemical difference the way it was when we were talking about excavators and sports cars. But nonetheless, it's a biochemical difference, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
The difference in the spelling of its proteins and structural proteins and enzymes and all of that stuff. I don't believe that mechanism is nearly powerful enough to explain how a shrew-like ancestor became a bat.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
There's a whole layer that is missing that allows... evolution to explore design space much more efficiently than the mechanism that we invoke.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
The mechanism that we invoke is... Random mutation. Random mutation, which I believe in, random mutation happens, selection, which chooses those variants that are produced by mutation and collects the ones that give the creature an advantage. There's nothing wrong with that story. That story is true.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Random mutations happen, selection collects the ones that are good, and those collected advantageous mutations accumulate in the genome. All of that is true. What I'm arguing against is the idea that that transforms a shrew into a baton.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
What you need to get a shrew turned into a bat is a much less crude mechanism whereby selection, which is ancient at the point that you have shrews, explores design space looking for ways to be that are yet undiscovered more systematically than random chance.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
What is that desire? I believe there's a kind of information stored in genomes that is not in triplet codon form, that is much more of a type that would be familiar to a designer. either of machines or a programmer. What we did was we took the random mutation model and
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
We recognized that it was Darwinian, which it is, and we therefore assumed that it would explain anything that we could see that was clearly the product of Darwinian forces on the basis of those random mutations, and we skipped the layer in between in which selection has a different kind of information stored in the genome that is not triplet codon in nature.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, and it's an arms race. How can pharma cloak the money that it's giving so that there's plausible deniability at the point that Elizabeth Warren is confronted or Bernie Sanders?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So the point is, let me try by analogy. Okay. Darwinists will tell you that evolution cannot look forward. It can only look backward. And there's a way in which that's just simply true. On the other hand, a Darwinist will also tell you that you are a product of evolution and you can look forward, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So if evolution can't look forward but it can build a creature that can, then can evolution look forward? I think it effectively can. So my point is that random mutation mechanism is in a race to produce new forms that are better adapted to the world than their ancestors. What if it can bias the game? It can enhance its own ability to search, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
If you lose your keys, you don't search randomly, right? You go through a systematic process of search, and that systematic process of search results in you finding your keys sooner than you would otherwise. So we should expect evolution to find every trick it can access to to increase the rate at which it discovers forms that would be useful in the habitat in question. And this is simply that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I'm not really saying anything that extraordinary. If I say, do you know that computers, all they do is binary? Well, that's true. But if you then imagine that that means that the people who program computers do it in binary... Well, there was a time when that was true, but it's not true anymore. It's not how you do it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
There's a much more efficient way to program a computer, and it involves a programming language, which a computer itself can't understand. But you can build a computer that can either interpret the language in real time, or you can build a computer that can accept the code as it's spit out by a compiler. These are mechanisms to radically increase the effectiveness of a programmer.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But it all comes out binary anyway in the end. That's really what I'm arguing is that there's the initial layer of Darwinian stuff, the random mutation layer that it looks like what we teach people. There's another layer which we're not well familiar with.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And it results in a much more powerful capacity to adapt than we can explain with that first mechanism, which is why guys like Tucker think there's just something. These Darwinists, they keep telling me that the shrew becomes a bat. And then they go on this rant about the random mutations and the triplet codons and the mutations that actually turn out to be good.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
It's just not powerful enough, and they're not wrong. They're detecting something real. And frankly, Tucker is the layperson example of this. You've had Stephen Meyer on. You know, he's actually he's a scientist who's quite good. And he's spotted that the mechanism in question isn't powerful enough to explain the phenomena that we swear it explains. And so he's catching up.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But that's really on the Darwinists for not admitting what they can't yet explain and pursuing it, which is what they should be doing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
It's not a force. So I don't know how much of this I've made clear. But if you fill in the missing layer, it's purely Darwinian. None of this establishes that Darwin had it wrong. But it's just a different mechanism. It's another Darwinian mechanism. Right? I mean, and let me, this is, there's nothing strange about this.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, I don't think the Democrats understand that it's over and that there was a vast infrastructure that made their feeble arguments viable. And that infrastructure is now collapsing. People are far more aware and their lives aren't going to function anymore.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
If you think about the way a human being works compared to, let's say, a starfish, right? A human being has a software layer, a cognitive layer, in which the human being is born into an environment. And that environment could be a hunter-gatherer environment of 10,000 years ago, or it could be a modern environment.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And the human being doesn't have to be modified at the level of its genome in order to function differently in those two environments. It has to be sensitive to the information in those environments so that it can become adapted to them developmentally. Right. So development is one trick that the genome uses to make a human being more flexible than other creatures. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
You do not come out of the womb being ready to do human stuff. You are profoundly hobbled by not having a complete program. But it means that the program you develop can be highly attuned to your particular moment in time and location in space. That is the Darwinian mechanisms that store information in the genome solving an evolutionary problem in a different way.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So this is already a second layer that doesn't function like that random mutation layer.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So evolution should be expected to find all of the cheat codes and to build them in because any creature that has access to all of these different ways of adapting more rapidly or more effectively will outcompete the creatures that have fewer of these things. So you should expect, what I often say is we have to remember we are not looking at
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Darwinism 1.0 you're looking at Darwinism 10.0 you're looking at a highly sophisticated evolutionary structure that is the result of all of the discoveries of the prior structures and that includes some things that modern creatures can do but it also includes an evolution of enhanced evolutionary capacity including things like culture mmm
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
It's an accelerator because that's how you compete. Oh. The faster you adapt. And so this is one of the other things that I think needs to be corrected about Darwinism. We have a very crude, a primitive understanding of what fitness means. We know that it's important, that it's sort of the core thing that selection is trying to accomplish, enhanced fitness.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But we pretend that that means the same thing as reproduction. Often it's very tightly correlated to reproduction. But if you think it's the same, you just miss out on all of the places where reproduction is not the key to lasting a long time into the future, which is really the trick that selection is targeted at.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Selection is always trying to get a creature to lodge its genomic spellings as far into the future as it can land them. So that means one way to do that is often to produce more offspring. That's a good way to increase the likelihood that your genome makes it into the future. That's of limited value.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Let's say that you're in a population that is in jeopardy, but you as an individual are highly successful. So maybe you have 10 offspring, right? You beat the expectation by five times. But then your population goes extinct 100 years after you're gone. right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Your fitness could be high based on how many offspring you produced, or it could be zero based on the ultimate outcome of what happened to all of your descendants.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
My claim is your fitness was actually zero, and you should have adjusted what you did to increase the likelihood that your population would endure whatever ultimately challenged it and not invested so much in producing your own offspring because that didn't end up being productive. So there are lots of cases where
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Producing more offspring and increasing your reproductive success is not actually a key to increasing your fitness, as I would instantiate it. And it is fitness that selection is targeted at. But when we pretend that fitness is something you should be able to measure, we screw up Darwinism. So that's another one of these correctives.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
I think the problem is the instinct that we should be able to measure it. It's not that kind of parameter. And I think it's perfectly fine to say reproductive success tends to be very closely correlated with fitness. And we can measure reproductive success.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But we have to recognize that when you imagine that they are synonymous, any place where producing more offspring is counterproductive to getting into the future, we will be confused by, and we are confused by them.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
My advisor, I believe, nailed the answer to that question.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
My advisor was a guy named Dick Alexander. He was a marvelous human being and a very insightful biologist. His argument was that human beings or our ancestors... attained a kind of ecological superiority where the most important dictator of whether or not you evolutionarily succeeded or failed was your competition with other humans.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And so his point, which I think is accurate, is that it is humans in a an arms race with other humans that caused the radical elaboration of our capacity to puzzle solve, to think, to exchange abstractions. Now, I would add to that, and Heather and I have written on this, that the mechanism, we argue that there is a flip-flop that will happen in evolutionary modes for human beings.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So as we talked about a few minutes ago, humans are special in the sense that the genome, which is still the thing that is trying to get into the future, has solved genome problems by offloading the adaptive capacity to our software layer, right? Once your software layer has the capacity to adapt and is not tethered to changes in your genome, well, now you can evolve very rapidly.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah. Well, it's always about power and limited resources. And this was a new game taking place at a level that was hard to believe. And therefore, many of us couldn't see it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But how do you do it? And what Heather and I argued in our book is that there is a flip-flop between two modes of evolution. cognitive functioning for humans. One of them is the mode that you employ when your relationship to your environment is very much like your ancestors' relationship to their environment.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So in other words, if you are in a circumstance and your grandparents knew how to live in the place that you live, it does not make sense to be trying to figure out some new way to be. What makes sense is for you to do whatever they were doing and maybe improve it if you could figure out how.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But in general, what you should do is you should accept the ancestral wisdom in a cultural form, and you should learn to do whatever it is your people do, and you should do it as well as you can and upgrade it if that's an opportunity. But there comes a place either in space or in time when whatever it is that your ancestors were doing is no longer productive, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So if you imagine that your people are, I don't know, maybe you hunt elk. Well, if we move far enough across space, there'll be some place where there aren't elk, right? Where the habitat isn't hospitable to them. Maybe it's too dry, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And so you could take the ancestral wisdom that talks about how to hunt elk, or you could recognize that that's not very productive here, and we need to do something else. So I don't know exactly what it is that you'll move to, but you'll have to innovate some new way of being. Maybe you'll take up— I don't know, hunting smaller game, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Or maybe you'll take up gathering some material, or maybe you'll invent farming. But the point is, wherever you are in either space or time, that your ancestors' wisdom is no longer highly productive. you will be triggered into this second mode, which we would call consciousness. So the first mode is culture. Second mode is consciousness.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And the idea of consciousness is that human beings have the capability of doing something no other creature can do. We can exchange abstract ideas between individuals. And that means—and we use the metaphor of a campfire for this—
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
That a human population will gather around the campfire at night and they will talk about whatever they've observed in their habitat and they will talk about what opportunities there are there and how those opportunities might be exploited. And they will parallel process the puzzle, right? Every member of the group has different skills and insights.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And so in talking about how the new opportunities might be exploited, they will come up with some prototype for a new way of being. So the argument I've made is during normal times, your ancestors knew pretty well how to exploit the habitat that you'll be born into. You should take their wisdom and deploy it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
If you are at the edge of that habitat or you are at the point where that habitat changes and it isn't any longer productive to try to do what your ancestors did, you will engage in this conscious exchange of insight, consciousness that will allow you to innovate a new niche.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And at the point you've got that new niche pretty well figured out, it will be turned into a culture that will be passed on to future generations until it's no longer useful. So that process accounts, we believe, for the... radical variation in niches that human beings inhabit. Thousands of niches over the history of our species. That's unlike any other creature.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
For any other creature, once you've named the species, you've pretty much named a niche, some way of being that that species engages in. For human beings, this isn't true. Human beings are like thousands of different species.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
The differences between them, there are some physical differences, but most of those differences between the de facto species that exist within our overarching species, most of those differences are housed in the cultural layer, right? They're software. They're not hardware. That is an amazing capability to have.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
for a creature to have the ability to switch niches in this way and therefore adopt every continent every habitat except the arctic has been made productive by people in this way but the question is like why us why why has the human animal been able to do this and no other animal has done anything remotely similar Well, I think that goes back to my advisor's insight.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
The idea that once human beings become their own primary competitor, the primary dictator of the success of a population is how it does against another population that is similarly equipped. That arms race produces incredible problem-solving capability. It's why our craniums were expanded as they were, why our raw processing power is so large compared to our next nearest relative.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
It's that capacity which then allowed human beings to become regular niche switching creatures.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, they compete, but they don't have the, you know, most animals have many arbiters of their success, right? They have, you know, biotic arbiters, competing species. They've got members of their own species. They've got abiotic factors such as, you know, climate and weather. And those factors mean that they're a multiplicity. Of hostile forces for human beings.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
We became our own primary hostile force and that created the arms race. So one population against another. Can you outthink your competitors?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, because you don't need the armaments, for example.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, I mean, you know, there are others that have many of the rudiments. Like dolphins? Yeah. Heather and I talk about the usual suspects. You've got dolphins, including orcas. You've got wolves. You've got other great apes. You've got crows, parrots. There are a lot of creatures that have some of the magic that human beings have, but none of them have all of the components.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, it is something special, to be sure. The couple things that need to be said here are, A, I am sympathetic to the intelligent design folks, though I do not believe they are on the right track. I'm open to a universe with intelligence behind it, but I've seen no evidence of that universe myself. I'm open to it. If it happens, I will look at it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But I believe this can all be explained in Darwinian terms. And more to the point, I would... I would highlight the fact that they don't really have a competing explanation. So the fundamental principle of reason is parsimony, that the simplest explanation we would typically say the simplest explanation tends to be right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
No, it's a positive feedback. The whole idea is power is utilized to free resources that garner more power. And it is the exact inverse of the system that we are supposed to have. Yeah. It's very interesting. Where we're headed... That's a harder question.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
In my opinion, if we had all of the information, the simplest explanation would always be right. It would be a more reliable law. But in general, the simplest explanation tends to be right. If you take the intelligent design folks and you extrapolate from what they seem to be suggesting, they do not escape the
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
necessity for a darwinian explanation even if the creatures of earth were designed on a drawing board by a creature that wanted to make them that creature has to have come from somewhere and the only explanation that has ever been proposed for where such a creature could have come from is darwinian evolution
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So to me, the problem with intelligent design, the most fundamental one, is that even if it were true, you've basically solved the problem of explaining Earth's creatures at a cost that is a million times worse in terms of parsimony. If it's hard to explain a tiger, Through Darwinian processes, it is that much harder yet to explain a tiger designer.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So the point is, sooner or later, you're going to reach for Darwinism because there's literally no competitor. There's nothing else anyone has ever done.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, I mean, it is, you know, we humans are not built to understand evolution because in general it's not very useful to understand it. So our minds are not structured this way.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Oh, in one way, yes, because let's put it this way. I think we teach evolution badly. There's a process that I would call selection, which accounts for all pattern in the universe, right? Some differential force that arranges the size of the pebbles on a beach, it arranges the galaxies, it accounts for the number of stars of each different type, the elements.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Selection produces all of that structure in the prebiotic universe. It becomes adaptive in the biological sense when you add to selection heredity. Right? When the patterns in the universe become capable of biasing the universe into producing more of themselves. Right? Red dwarf stars do not bias the universe into producing more red dwarf stars. There's no heredity there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So there's a number of red dwarf stars that is the result of selection, but it is not the result of any hereditary process. The thing that's different about us critters is that heredity allows the adaptations to stack on top of each other so that they increasingly bias the universe into producing more of whatever they are, right? A bat is biasing the universe into producing more bats.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So there is no reason at all to think that New game that happens when heredity gets attached to selection is limited to Earth in any way. Now, it could be that it is so difficult for it to happen that it just hasn't gotten around to it anywhere else.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
No. I mean, I'm dimly aware of it, but I didn't look into it and I don't know what it means.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, it could or it could mean that these components assemble themselves more commonly than we would guess. If I had to guess, I would say it's very likely that there's a lot of life in the universe. I don't think there's anything so special about the Earth that it would be the lone example or even a very rare example. You know, there aren't a lot of Earth-like planets nearby.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But there are bound to be a lot of Earth-like planets in a universe as big as this one is. One of the things about the universe is that it absolutely defies human comprehension in terms of how big it is. So I would guess there's a lot of life out there. Why we don't hear from it, that's an interesting question.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
It may be that as soon as it gets around to communicating in ways that we could listen in, it blows itself up.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, A, there's something implicit in what you've said that's quite frightening if true, and that is for – If it were the case that life becomes intelligent, develops artificial intelligence, and then we wouldn't count it as life anymore, that implies the extinction of all of the things that were not the immediate precursors of the AI, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Maybe, but I mean, what I hate to think is that AI results in all of the biology of Earth ceasing to exist.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Oh, it certainly could, but I was just responding to your sense that there wouldn't be life elsewhere because it turns into AI.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Well, I do want to tag something here then. There's a a theme that is increasingly a focus of mine because it pays a lot of dividends once you start tracking it, which is this distinction between complicated things and complex things, and importantly, the distinction between the mindset with which you approach truly complex things versus the mindset in which you approach complicated things.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
So A, I think we have a lot of folks who have gotten very, very good at complicated things and that when they take over complex things, they inevitably fuck them up, right? So in part, our interventionist sense of the way medicine should work is a bunch of complicated problem solving in a complex system where it is destined to create harm. And I think we are going to see that again and again.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Anytime you hear somebody confidently pontificating about some complicated solution that they want to deploy to a complex problem, alarm bells should go off. That now puts us in an interesting place with respect to our machines.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Because what I think is about to happen, if it has not happened already, is that our machines, which are hyper complicated, but not complex, are just about to cross that threshold and become complex, which means that our expertise in thinking about them is about to be rendered obsolete. So AI I believe, has the characteristics of true complexity, or at least has a primordial form of it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And that means that our Thinking about machines is of an outdated kind. And anyway, I'm expecting a kind of catastrophe to arise out of that as we deploy complicated thinking and what we're really up against is misleading us because it's still, you know, it's on a screen. It triggers all of our complicated instincts. And I'm worried about where that goes, and I'm worried.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yes. The problem is I – sometimes when I see like a list of preposterous scientific projects that have gotten big grants, I read it and I think I – They all sound preposterous, but I don't know. Some of these things are likely to have had a good explanation, and it just is not apparent in the sound bite. And some of them are every bit as preposterous as they seem.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Have you tried to extrapolate? Yeah, I mean, I've got to tell you, when I see Larry Ellison talking about Stargate, it makes me shudder because it feels like exactly the type specimen of the arrogant... What did he say about Stargate? Oh, that it's going to leverage AI and produce tailor-made cancer vaccines, this, that, or the other.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And my sense is there is not enough humility in this presentation. There is not enough concern about us stepping into a realm we really know very little about. And that hubris is going to it's going to create a colossal error of some kind. And, you know, you can imagine it. We've just seen a colossal error with vaccines. So, you know, to have somebody saying, well, never mind what just happened.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Likes to make a lot of money and has some murky connections to the deep state. Oh. Boy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Yeah, I would love to say more about it at some time, but I've got to get my ducks in a row.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
Likewise. Really appreciate you and always glad to join you.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
The Dark Horse podcast. We do a live show every week, and I release several Inside Rail podcasts with guests every month. You can find me on Twitter, at Brett Weinstein. Brett has one T. I'm a fellow at the Brownstone Institute, which is a marvelous institution. You should certainly look them up. Probably about does it. Okay. Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
And so I can't look at a map like that and say what I would expect if the system was healthy. So I'm cautious about it. I don't think the system was healthy. I think the system was a racket from one end to the other. And I've been saying that we've been living in the era of malignant governance where there's basically no element of this you couldn't turn off and make us better.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2269 - Bret Weinstein
But we have to be suspicious also of our understanding of how a properly functioning system would graph in something like that. So that we don't overrun the train station when we get there. And I will just say, I was talking to a friend of mine who runs an Alaska native corporation, which I don't know if we've talked about Alaska native corporations before. But this is a corporation.