Benjamin Wittes
Appearances
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
The conversation that the Trump administration wants to have every time a Democrat says, hey, how you did this, how you are deporting these people is unconstitutional and against the law. What's interesting is that there's plenty of Republicans that believe this. Most of them don't want to say a word. By the way, have you noticed you may need to put an APB out for Lindsey Graham?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
One of the patterns to Lindsey Graham in particular, if you want to know, when he can't defend what Donald Trump is doing, he goes radio silent. Completely radio silent. He has sort of two versions of it. Sometimes what he does is he doesn't defend the actions, but he defends the goals. But this is a guy who was in the JAG Corps in the military. I think actually does care about the rule of law.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And I think is probably, I would like to think, I don't know if he's personally outraged by how this administration is dealing with the rule of law. But it's clear he's not supportive of it. Because it is crickets. You don't see him anywhere. You don't see him.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
This is a guy who knows his state has benefited from an open and free market economy with a company like BMW and Mercedes, both, I believe, with plants in South Carolina. And here's a guy who actually seems to care about the rule of law. And clearly this administration right now doesn't care if it's following the rule of law.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
So you can see sometimes by the lack of positive affirmation from some of these folks that if they can't defend it, they're staying silent. Because as Lisa Murkowski admitted last week, Speaking out comes with a threat of retaliation. And that is something that many Republicans are very, very nervous about. All right. I'm going to sneak in a break.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
When we come back, my conversation with Ben Wittes as we try to understand exactly if there is any actual legal strategy behind what the executive branch is up to or if this is all lawsuits that are designed for maximum political advantage and or pain. Thank you.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And joining me now is the editor-in-chief of Lawfare, which is a publication that's devoted to legal issues having to do with national security. But these days, the definition, at least what the White House uses for national security, keeps broadening, which means in many ways, I'm going to be counting on Ben Wittes here to be our...
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
our tour guide in understanding, frankly, all of the legal fights that the Trump administration has decided to take on, whether it's we'll concentrate first and foremost on the on the immigration case. But I'm hoping to tap into Ben's nimble, legal mind on all sorts of things, including what's going on with Harvard and thus far. Ben, what is good to see you, sir?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
It has been a while back when both you and I took financial rewards from NBC. It might be one way to put it. But yeah. one thing you can't be upset about is that donald trump is giving lawfare plenty of material to i mean and i guess he's made uh people paying attention to the law great again not
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Beyond that, It doesn't look like Congress is doing much. There's some rhetoric about things that they could be doing or should be doing. I think we're all waiting for the oversight hearing on Signalgate and exactly what did Pete Hegseth declassify to put on vulnerable private communication systems.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Well, congratulations. That's nice. Thank you. That's nice.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
You have to. So I was preparing for this and I was looking at. You know, this handy dandy list of rules that I thought we all abided by. It was called the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, this crazy thing. And I have him violating the first, the fourth, the fifth, the sixth, the seventh, the eighth and the ninth amendments. I can't find evidence that he violated the second and third.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And we'll see on the state front right now. What about the 10th? Well, that's what I mean. I'm not going to sit here and say I don't have a good I don't have an easy case to say he's violated the 10th yet. Although I think what he's doing with the Department of Education arguably might be doing that. But well, that that might be a stretch. But.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
When you just look at this one case, am I crazy to say that in some ways the Trump Justice Department and what the immigrant – I mean we may say a violation of the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th. I mean these are the amendments that are there to essentially put some boundaries on what the state can do to somebody that they think might be a criminal.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
So it is – let's talk about the Supreme Court ruling here and the word they chose to use. The administration does not believe the Supreme Court has ordered them to have him returned. They believe that the Supreme Court simply said – and this is – I'm sort of interpreting based on what you wrote. You seem to think that their interpretation is –
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
If El Salvador chooses to send him back, the United States has to accept him.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
We think we have the backstory as how the National Security Advisor put a reporter on that group, but we still don't know why. There was so much ease with which the secretary of defense shared what was classified information on that. We're still waiting for those hearings. We're still waiting for that investigation.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And how do you interpret the Supreme Court order?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Do you believe the Supreme Court watered their order down?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
This Supreme Court, would you... That's what I mean. Like, this is what you expected from this version of the Roberts Court, not what you would have expected from a generic Supreme Court on this issue?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And I don't know if it is for the most part. This court's been consistent on that. Yeah, very. They're very light on on the executive branch in general.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
We know that Donald Trump fired so many inspector generals that it is slowing down investigations that would really be sort of routine. I mean, the fact of the matter is there's always issues that the government has to figure out what went wrong.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
So let's come up with some things that might fulfill facilitate. Does that mean the ambassador formally petitions the Salvadorian government? Is that I mean, what what what do you think will generally fall under that umbrella? So actions.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
So Bob Gates, the former secretary of defense for George W. Bush and Barack Obama, once said once said that he tells presidents that on any given day, somebody is fucking up. And pardon my French there in your name, Mr. President. And he has said that to President Bush and he has said that to President Obama, meaning the federal government is so big.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And now she's asking for daily updates. And the updates are no. We have no updates from yesterday.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
You know. I look at this case and I look at the AP case, just those two specifically. And you and I both know that if the White House wanted to pretend it was following the law, they could. I am just shocked that they're choosing to brazenly, essentially, not even try, not even fake it. Like with AP, they used an unconstitutional rationale to bar them.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Like it was blatantly obvious, which is why it was easy court case to win. Now, the irony is how they've responded since is actually why they could have done that the first time. And never had an AP doesn't have a leg to stand on. They seem to almost want the confrontation with these judges, like they're almost going out of their way to say, I don't care.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And it, you know, to me, you just sit there and like, I don't know why you'd accumulate more political. You're just daring more members of the judiciary to say, you know what? These guys aren't even pretending to respect what we do. So I'm not asking you to figure that out. I mean, I think he's- No, but the problem is worse than you say. Yeah, okay, go ahead.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Another Justice Department could actually charge extortion here.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
But the, you know... If we're going to commit lawfare.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
That no matter how well it is run, how efficient things are, there is somebody making a mistake in your name, causing you at a minimum a political problem and a maximum a policy problem that impacts the public. And yet we seem to be almost paralyzed in our ability to. to deal in totality everything that's going on.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
This is my frustration that one, the law firms haven't banded together to that the press, the traditional press. I mean, you know, I've just I'm absolutely appalled by the the folks that are running traditional media companies not standing by AP because they're about the only the only option you have is collective action to at least make a point.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
I'm not saying it might not work, but if you can't stand up for your basic constitutional rights, The First Amendment, if you're a member of the press, frankly, the Fourth Amendment, if you're a law firm, you know, or, you know, just the then what are you in this? What are you even doing here?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
I mean, that that's my I just I'm so angry about the press aspect of this because I was one of the people who stood up, who we stood up to Obama and said, you can't do that to Fox. And we refuse to participate in their pool unless they included Fox. And the inability of collective action, because we know what's happening.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
The media executives who are not journalists have chosen to abide by their bosses who have said, please don't pick a fight right now. And I understand that from a fiduciary standpoint, right, from a business standpoint. But this is the slippery slope, and we're now watching it in real time.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
But why are they behaving as if they are?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
In many ways, I would argue the first 90 days of Donald Trump have been like demolition man, right? He is just trying to demolish norms all over the place. He is trying to, he is forcing the judiciary branch and trying to see how much executive power he can get the judiciary to essentially approve of or not stop.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Arguably, I guess Harvard decided they were going to fight. Do you think that? And it was interesting to me the day after Harvard essentially said no. Columbia said, oh, yeah, no. They were like, oh, yeah, we're right behind you, Harvard, you know, on that front. Do you expect Harvard's decision to have any effects on these law firms?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
They will. And I think they're just banking that it's a two or three year price.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
They're going to win the suit, but it's going to cost them a lot of money. I mean, it doesn't seem like I don't know how they lose here.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And so that brings me back, though, to my other question. It's funny you brought up liberty like that, because I thought the same thing. You know. He's going out of his way. He and Stephen Miller and Stephen Miller is obviously the guy seems to be executing all of this because I think we all know Donald Trump's too lazy to actually do some of the work that it would take to.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
He's a smart guy. I mean, I wouldn't want to know he was working on a case against me. He is willing to push the envelope. He's willing to do things that most ethical people wouldn't do. He's willing to cross certain ethical lines. But why not just simply reward friendly universities?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And, you know, they keep they're going out of their way to force these fights, which I guess they just see it as political distractions that feed the base something to eat while they destroy the global economy and hope that they're not paying attention.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And the way any administration works – this is why this is such a dangerous period in the history of this country because if this judiciary essentially allows some of these things to go, they become precedent. And what happens is future presidents take whatever minimum they have and then push even further. So this is why we're sitting here with –
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
So you just view this as because he can't. put the biden's in jail or get them harassed or all of that business this stuff is so much easier he can so mess around with government contract and yet here's here's been a an assumption that i've made about doge in general but aid specifically and frankly even many of these
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
many of these weaponizations that the Trump administration has done on various things, is that the government is eventually going to lose all these cases. And in some cases, they're going to lose and have to pay damages, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
I mean, I assume there's small businesses are going to essentially have breach of contracts with the federal government, and they're going to be able to prove that what was done was illegal, they're owed restitution, and etc. But all of this is going to take years.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
But I assume that the government ends up paying more money in damages over the next decade for the last 90 days than they have in money saved by Doge.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
I assume the contractors and it's going to be, again, I think there's going to be small businesses. These, you know, some of these contractors are small businesses that facilitate some of these AID contracts. Correct. And the business really is 90% of the business is the federal contract. So the cancellation banks are up the company.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Essentially vulnerable to one individual's belief on how the economy should work rather than having Congress make these decisions on tariffs. We're sitting here because the congressional branch handed all this power to the executive branch. It went back to not arguably this started with 9-11.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Speaking of those pesky judges. It's pretty clear to me that John Roberts is petrified that Donald Trump's going to ignore an order. He should be. So he's desperate to find ways to create rulings that give him something, but not everything. Am I being a little cynical about this?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Actually, it started before then when more trade authority was being handed to the Clinton administration. Then 9-11, more national security authority got handed the executive branch. With Barack Obama, his party had full control of the trifecta. He got handed more executive power. Donald Trump grabbed more executive power the first term.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Well, you know, it's interesting here. You're right. And he's putting so much stress on his own party right now. Right. The tariffs are putting stress on the farm state senators who are just uncomfortable with it. And a lot of the free market to your guys who are just like, I knew he was for this, but I always believed he wasn't that serious. And now they're freaking out.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Now there's this idea of raising taxes on millionaires, right? Which is like freaking out the Grover Norquist crowd and that and they're they're desperately trying.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
I saw Steve and it's sort of amusing to me to watch these mega converts be shocked when, you know, they start behaving unpredictably and a little more responsive to what they believe their populist base won't just accept, but actually wants here. But going back on the court, do you think
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
These this is oddly bringing the justices together a little bit, just even because it's pretty clear that there's a lot of discomfort. Right. You know, you're Sonny Sotomayor and you're Sam Alito. I'm guessing maybe they say hi in the halls, you know, if they if if there's other people watching. But I don't know if they do, if nobody's watching. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Happy Monday and welcome to another week of the Trump administration. We are getting awfully close to the 100 day mark. And just to just to put this in perspective, think about how tumultuous this first 90 plus days has been on the American economy, on the American judicial system, on the American democracy, on foreign affairs. Just think about the things that have happened that we have.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
not had follow up on. I think about here as a D.C. person who uses National Airport a lot. I'll be honest with you. I'm still would like to know what happened the night that we had that deadly plane crash where a military helicopter was essentially got in the way of the landing of a commercial airliner. We've not gotten the after action report. There's not been the
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
I'm saying that I'm I'm you know, it's so hard to read the tea leaves with these with these nine folks. But in a normal environment, right, when you've had, these are the type of things that could actually, bring an institution together. Do you have any sense of that? I know you have some insight sometimes with clerks and all that. What do you think?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Joe Biden grabbed more and pushed the envelope with what he tried to do with student loans, which was another essentially executive branch power grab. And now, of course, this one, which is. really doesn't have any precedent, arguably, unless you go back to FDR and Lincoln, who did grab extra executive power under the guise of war. And those were actual wars.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
You have to make your case. You have to have due process. Again, most of the Bill of Rights is about moments like this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
But it almost feels like it's like they're all looking around here. All right. We got to have some escape hatch here so we don't rule fully against Trump.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
What did you make of them putting out essentially a press release?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
It's like having a knockdown, drag out fight over a semicolon.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Right now, we have these various emergencies that the president has declared in order to try to fast track deportations in this country, try to fast track trade authority in this country, try to fast track a few things here. So the point is,
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
reacting to probably private conversations they've had with the other with many members of the other six who all probably privately express alarm and and all that stuff. And then like, come on, can't you say it publicly? Like, that's how I kind of read it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Two other cases I want to ask you about. One is California's the state of California's lawsuit against the administration on tariffs. I assume the administration is going to say that a state can't get involved in national security issues right in the same way that when Texas was trying to get involved with immigration issues, you can't make immigration policy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
I assume the federal government is going to say, hey, a state can't decide trade policy, though they can make their own sometimes agreements, sometimes has to do with state taxes and things like that. But what's your sense of that lawsuit and what and whether it's going to go anywhere?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
It's an international emergency, which I assume becomes national security.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
He has done the Steve Bannon – taken Steve Bannon's advice, which is just essentially just flood the zone and try to knock your political opponents and make them woozy and only sort of pick one. And this is the cynical aspect of what the Trump administration is doing.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And what are those what are those lawsuits against the tariffs themselves or do they become essentially. the same type of lawsuits we were describing with AID contractors.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
I think your tariff policy bankrupted me.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And I believe that a- You're overreading your power in the emergency acts?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
The discovery of of life on another planet. Now, he could worry that's an emergency for the entire globe. Right. Sorry. I'm just I would think so.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
This could be just, you know.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
The other one I have for you is about Chris Krebs. And I and it's about a lawsuit. I don't think he's filed, but I wonder if he could. And that is. And I know that there are some protections that when a sitting president, when you're a sitting president, you basically can't be sued in civil court. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Does that mean he can defame anybody he wants? Yes. That he has blanket authority to defame people? As long as he does- Because this is blatant defamation of character.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
I mean, Dominion- This is an executive order. This is clearly- Fox had to pay- nearly a billion dollars, essentially. It was a settlement, so I guess there technically wasn't an adjudication of defamation. But essentially that's what they're paying. If Fox could have somehow declared themselves a public official, they'd get out of this?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
I mean, cause I mean, he is the blatant defamation on individuals. I mean, it is, it is shocking. I mean, Well, then why didn't E. Jean Carroll's why did she succeed? She succeeded because it happened before he was president.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
But he also did it while he was president.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Well, he also defamed Chris Krebs in between his presidency.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Ironically, if a Democratic administration were doing, I'm sure Stephen Miller would be filing all sorts of legal briefs to claim that this is an abuse of executive power. All he's doing is essentially testing the electric fence of executive power and pushing the envelope, pushing the envelope at the border, pushing the envelope when it comes to
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And of course, yeah, I mean, I just, you know, I, I get really frustrated because this guy has been essentially defaming our profession. He's been all sorts of, and you know, he's, He's he he deserves to be under a wave of of constant lawsuits that he has to like that drown over based on, you know, his inability to to keep his mouth shut.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
But I think I have about the same relationship.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
What what what say so a government should have over a private organization like the university, Harvard, pushing the envelope on on trade and tariff authority. And you have a Democratic Party that is divided in how to respond. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
I had a friend of mine say, the mistake we made in Trump 1.0 was failure of imagination and that sometimes we, well, he wouldn't do that. Markets completely didn't believe he would go as far as he did on tariffs. They didn't price it in. They messed up. They didn't do that. And I think the biggest mistake probably some swing voters made was assuming that he'd be more like Trump 1.0. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And I think the biggest, the most important thing people have to understand is that this is an entirely different presidency, an entirely different administration. And the first one had real guardrails because there were real serious people who were not MAGA. And this time, this is a government of true believers who, well, some are true believers and some are on the libers.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
I always say there's true believers and then there's the ones who just want to be reactionaries. If the left's upset, then we must be winning, even if I'm losing money in the stock market too, right? But this is an entirely different proposition we're facing with Trump 2.0.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
No, he's been he's a changed man. He's he's yeah, he was always manic as he was. He's more manic now.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
When people ask you your level of concern about the future of the democracy, and I get this question, and I'm of the We're not a turkey. Maybe you can make some early stage Hungary comparisons. I think that's where I go. Where do you go when you when you get asked that question, which I know you get asked a lot?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
I just like don't I trust our I trust the public to eventually figure this out.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
You have some that are nervous about drawing a full line in the sand, for instance, when it comes to due process having to do with Kumar Garcia, the the accidentally deported. El Salvadoran migrant who is now sitting in a prison cell in El Salvador over on Friday. Chris Van Hollen, Democratic senator from Maryland, did meet with them. We saw that the El Salvador president tried to create a.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
I learned this with GW when we were dealing at GW was dealing with the, with the, the Gaza protesters, and there was nothing they could do. They couldn't claim the building was being defamed because it was a projection.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
You haven't you haven't been audited yet from the IRS. We'll see what I'll ask again in September.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
That's essentially an answer, a form of an answer I heard from Condi Rice. who basically said, you know, our democracy is pretty ingrained in the people itself and how these things, that it's going to be, one person can do a lot of harm there, but it's really hard for one person to rip out the entire fabric of the nation in one turn.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
No, no, no, no. The, you know, the idea that we're a beacon of freedom and a beacon of new, the beacon got turned off. We are not, you know, nobody is saying, come here, we're a safe haven. I mean, you know, and by the way, I always constantly have to remind people the constitution, constitutional rights are
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
or for anybody in the United States, whoever's in the United States, you get some constitutional protection. Not all of it, but a lot of it, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Well, I guess we're counting on the courts not to erode that away.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
So I got a lot of, you know, I'm new to this. I've had my podcast has been audio only up until the last couple of weeks. So I'm new to this world of YouTube. So I'm going to make you answer a question that I know some viewers are going to say is, what are you sitting in? Tell us about your backdrop. What do you say?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
create some propaganda claiming they were sipping margaritas and sort of the absurdity of our of our information, of our misinformation ecosystem that we all now have to navigate these days. The fact that Chris Van Hollen had to spend Five minutes explaining, hey, look, if you notice, nobody took any sips out of this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
So basically, you're sitting in a hammock, not necessarily laying in a hammock.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Well, look, a hammock, hopefully that's all you're going to be in. Hopefully the government's not going to try to create- Not going to be hanging from something else. Not going to be trying to create a different type of incarceration for us. Mr. Wittes, I appreciate you going through this. I do think my biggest concern about all these lawsuits is that the
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
in some ways the Trump administration is counting on the idea that unpopular people, unpopular people are gonna get defended by the left because like they're comfortable violating the constitutional rights of unpopular people and think they can get away with it. And it's a really, it's a disturbing pattern.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
This was essentially the El Salvadoran government trying to create a warped picture of the situation. The most important piece of news, though, out of that meeting is the fact that Garcia is not in the more notorious prison that is nicknamed Seacott.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
No, it's... put it this way i understand why some people feel uh that this is a catastrophic moment because in individual cases it's absolutely appalling and alarming and i think what what you're trying to preach and what i'm trying to preach is sort of look this is bad it could be worse um and the goal should be to stop this so that it doesn't get worse
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Well, people are going to be looking for you and your projector around Washington, D.C. So it'll be fun to look for you. It's almost like, where's Waldo? We'll be looking for the projector.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Well, there you go. All right. That's an interesting, this is actually going to drop right after Sunday evening. So if that does happen, I will let my listeners know. Mr. Wittes, it's a pleasure.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Thank you. So look, we're going to wait to see what does the Supreme, when does the Supreme Court go a little bit hard, right? They didn't order the return of Garcia. They ordered the government to make an effort. to bring him back. So we are still the Roberts court still seems to be tiptoeing to the moment that there is going to be a cut.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
There's certainly going to be some constitutional confrontation. Perhaps it's over the Fed chair. I mean, to hear Donald Trump go after the Fed chair for essentially trying to do his job and trying to if he tries to upend the independence of the Fed chair.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
The fact that they put him in another prison, I think, tells you the El Salvadoran government is a bit nervous and the Trump administration is a bit nervous. So they want to make sure nothing happens to him physically. So if nothing else, the attention has probably kept him alive or at least kept him physically more safe than he would be if he were in that more notorious prison.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Not only could he crater the economy quicker and faster and certainly cause all sorts of disruption there, but that probably – and if I were to – if the Roberts court, knowing Roberts, I think he would be willing to draw a line in the sand over the Fed before he might be willing to draw a line in the sand over immigration policy. I know that sounds very cynical of me.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
But I think when it comes to the economy, I think he would see potentially more cover and that maybe there'd be more Republicans willing to stand by a Supreme Court decision that pushed back on any effort to the president to try to fire Powell simply because Powell's not bowing down to him and following the policy that he wants at the Fed rather than what the Fed governors believe is in the best interest of the country.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
With that, I do want to just do one quick sports wine, if I could. And my sports wine is the Nats bullpen. Why, why, why can't this? There seems to be a systemic problem in the Nats organization when it comes to pitching coaching. For whatever reason, we can't develop good relievers. We have a half decent time at develop and perhaps we're just scouting. I don't know if it's one of two things.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Either we only care about finding starting pitchers The experience of the 2019 World Series led our front office to believe relief pitchers don't matter because you just use your best pitchers once you get to the playoffs. But guess what? You need to get to the playoffs and you need a functional bullpen to do that. Or maybe we have owners that are just too cheap and are not giving whatever it is.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
It's an embarrassment. This is a young team. They deserve a chance to win. When you have a bullpen where you're not even trying and you may not even have professional baseball players in that bullpen, then you do. Forget the fans. You're not supporting those young teammates. You're only messing with their confidence.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
So get it together, front office, Mike Rizzo and the learners, and figure out either is it coaching and you just need improved coaching? I certainly wish we had Mike Maddox back as our pitching coach. Or are we just being cheap? Either way, you're being unfair to this organization that is still only six years removed from a world championship. All right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
See, this is the joy of having your own podcast. You can rant about pretty much anything you want. as long as it doesn't totally set the entire enterprise off the rails. So there's my little Nats rant for the weekend because I love James Wood. I'd like to see this guy get a chance to win, and I'd like to see the franchise put a winner around it. All right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
So with that, I wish I could have enjoyed the Nats winning this weekend, but I couldn't because of this awful bullpen. We had a nice holiday weekend, beautiful weather. And I had to watch that. Come on, people. All right. Enjoy the NBA playoffs. Those are going to be a lot of fun. Until we upload again.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
But the question I keep coming back to is there is a legal way to do this. But the Trump administration doesn't want to do it. They don't want to abide by a court order. They don't want to even get caught trying. They don't even want to fake it. They don't have the ambassador, you know, getting a meeting with the president of El Salvador and the president saying, sorry, we're not releasing him.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
At least they could claim they were following the court order that said that the government had to facilitate and essentially make an effort. Give it the old college try, guys, to try to get him out. And they're not even doing that. They're not trying at all. And that's what you gotta ask yourself. Why aren't they doing that? Do they just think this is good politics for them?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Well, I do think that they believe that everything they've done so far, that individually, if Democrats try to push back on any one thing individually, they can somehow win an argument, at least have their base come up and help them own the libs. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Just notice the sort of demagogic rhetoric that that the White House has been using having to do with Kilmar Garcia, that the fact that anybody questioning whether they followed the law or In in in in deporting him and giving him due process, which I promise you they did not. By my count, you'll hear this in the interview with Ben Wittes.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
I think he's violated the first, the fourth, the fifth, the sixth, the seventh, the eighth and the Ninth Amendment. OK. And on Garcia alone, I think they have violated the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth and ninth amendments. OK. All of them. The First Amendment has been violated in other ways, including with with their dealings with the Associated Press. I don't.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
The congressional investigations that you would expect yet. We really haven't had anything. And, you know, and part of this you can maybe chalk up to the news cycle. Part of it is the whole Trump administration's throw a thousand things at the wall and things get lost. And you sit there and it appears as if.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
I don't see any evidence yet that they have violated the second or the third. And we can have a debate about whether they violated the 10th yet. But again, we're not even at day 100. So give them time. There's always a chance. But the cynical view of this administration is that they believe.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
If they have the Democrats all sort of standing up for Garcia because of the lack of due process, that instead they can say, hey, look, Democrats are willing to fight harder for non-citizens than they are for you. They weren't fighting for you when they were letting these folks in.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And so it's a mindset where they believe the ends justifies the means as long as they have shut the border down and they have used some very aggressive means to shut the border down. But frankly, there there means that the Biden administration only started using in the last six months of that administration. The fact is.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
the Biden administration's in the first two years refused to let DHS do its job. Secretary Mayorkas, when he was deputy with Jay Johnson in the second Obama administration, they knew how to control the border. And he was trying to implement the exact same policies that they did the first time. And the fact of the matter is that the first White House would not do it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
There was absolutely an ideological brick wall that Mayorkas ran into during the Ron Klain era of of the White House. And then when that went from Klain to Zients, the thing that changed the most, if you actually look at. border policy, that was the biggest dramatic change.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
So I don't want to sit here and say that the Democrats didn't help create the mess at the border and certainly didn't do enough that could be done. Donald Trump left them a legal quagmire when he left office during the COVID era at the border. But it's not as if the Biden administration managed it very well in the first two years. They did get their arms around it eventually.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
But it was after there was a new chief of staff and after, frankly, it had already become a political problem. So the Trump folks just believe that if they can just make this an immigration issue, first of all, notice what we're not talking about tariffs. We're not talking about the economic disaster that is coming. Now, this is a bit of a lagging indicator, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
All of the current economic figures that have been coming out are what's happened in the previous 30 days or the previous 60 days or the previous 90 days. The fact is we're going to start to see a rise in prices probably in the next 60 to 90 days. You're not seeing them right in the moment, right? Because plenty of American companies have inventory that they got in before the tariffs hit.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
So prices are only just now starting to creep up. And that, of course, will then start this spiral that could get really ugly for a while. Rising prices, inflation, stagnant wages, layoffs. You can see where this is headed. But in the short term, as all the focus has been on. On the one issue, because apparently only one issue can be done at a time.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
There's been this debate in the Democratic Party about whether how hard they should go. You have had Gavin Newsom, who sees the Kilmar Garcia story as a distraction. You have others that say if you don't draw a line in the stands somewhere, then what's the point of being a political party? You're in the opposition.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
We only have the band that generically the media only has the bandwidth to do one story at a time. So when we were in the middle of the rescue operation, we got a lot of details on everything we could figure out in the 72 hours in and around that plane crash. But we haven't had any good reporting since. Congress, as usual, has been sitting on its hands.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
The fact of the matter is I do think the party needs to figure out how to have one message. And I think the chaos message. which worked in the first administration, right? The fact is the public doesn't like the chaos. Individual goals that Donald Trump has outlined are things the public would like to see, right? A safe and secure border, more manufacturing jobs in America.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
But how he's gone about doing it, upending the world economy, upending due process and the rule of law, that isn't what the public wants. They don't like how this is being done. And the political opposition, I don't think, has done a good enough job sort of framing this as that as incompetency, because ultimately that's what this has been complete and utter incompetence on the tariffs.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
If you wanted to do this, there was a more systematic way to do this on the border. If you wanted to do this, there was a more systematic way to do this. But ultimately, the only conclusion one can come to is – it looks like the conclusion that our friends at National Review came to over the weekend.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
When it seems as if the administration wants to test the limits of executive power, so they don't care – If they knowingly essentially violate the law and see how hard is the judiciary going to push back, how hard is the Supreme Court going to push back? And I promise you this is you know, I keep using this metaphor.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
But if you give if you give this administration a cookie, they're going to come back and take more and take more and take more and take more. So it is a very cynical argument. view of the executive that this administration has taken. And you have people around the president that are looking to essentially turn this country into a... It's not a republic if the executive gets too strong.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
It's a borderline monarchy. And in fact, I do find it interesting that the governor of Massachusetts... On April 19th, the anniversary of the shot heard around the world, had this to say at a rally. She said the following. This is Maura Healy, Democratic governor of Massachusetts. She was in Concord, Massachusetts. Again, home, Concord and Lexington, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Home of the shot heard around the world. We live in a moment when our freedoms are once again under attack from the highest office in the land. We see things that would be familiar to our revolutionary predecessors, the silencing of critics, the disappearing of people from our streets, demands for unquestioning fealty.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
So that was an attempt by at least one Democrat to try to take everything President Trump has done and try to put it in a larger context. And I think that what the Trump administration is counting on is to be able to isolate each of these criticisms into one and turn it in. Oh, so you want terrorists to be roaming free around the country type of type of, you know, have you stopped?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
You know, in one of the metaphors we like to use in media, when did you stop beating your wife? Right. What's a what's an example of the worst kind of leading question? What I just said, when did you stop beating your wife? So when did you stop supporting terrorists is essentially.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
I mean, look, we have an issue here where we have a very tumultuous period in American government and in American history. It's a busy executive branch and a busy judicial branch. The legislative branch is sitting on its hands. Doesn't appear to be doing anything other than figuring out how to not, at least the Republican majorities, not to alienate Donald Trump or Donald Trump's MAGA base.