Ben Lindbergh
Appearances
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Now, the significant changes that they did make, I guess the big one that we should start with here is the character pairings and the alignments and who's present at what scene. So Ellie rides out with Jesse instead of Dina in the game. Here, she's with Dina. In the show, Joel goes with Dina instead of Tommy. So she's with Dina when the death scene happens.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Here on Button Mash, we're giving you the gamer's guide to this season as we analyze the latest HBO episode from the perspective of two people who've played the Last of Us series for years. And this week's episode, well, this was the one we've been expecting, the one we've been dreading. You know, it's funny.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
But when the episode starts, Joel goes with Dina because they actually have a relationship, as we discussed last time, whereas they don't in the game. And in the game, Joel and his brother are the ones in the brutal beating. So here we have Jesse involved. We just have different duos involved. So what did you make of the choice to split people up and pair different people together?
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Yeah, so we still get Eugene's weed den, but now it's a 7-Eleven, not a library basement. And because Ellie and Jesse are together, we don't get the Ellie-Dina-Blizzard sex. This is a big milestone in their relationship. That doesn't happen here.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
So it's funny how the Eugene details are being changed, just like Joel taught Dina about rewiring electronics last week, which is something Eugene did in the game world. We still have vestiges of Eugene, but different things happening in different places at different times. And because of that, we don't get that big progression in the Ellie Dina romance, but
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
We get a different big progression in the sense that Dina is there to witness the murder. I mean, not literally, I guess, because she's knocked out mercifully by that point. But she's the one who's there with Joel, not Tommy. Craig Mason said one of the reasons we made a change from the game to have Joel in that room with Dina as opposed to Tommy. Who's a big, tough guy.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Abby is basically saying, make one mistake and we're going to kill her. And if there's one thing we know about Joel, it's that he's sort of the ultimate dad. We know he cares very much about Dina and that he would never let her suffer in any way, shape or form to defend herself. So that's interesting.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
So it's he seems to be saying that Dina's presence made it an easier sell that Joel wouldn't resist more because if he's there with Tommy and the two of them could tag team Abby and her crew, that he might be more willing to to be reckless, to be more aggressive, to make more of an effort to save himself, which is it's kind of interesting because he doesn't really do that in the game either.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Right. And I I didn't think that much of that in the game. I mean, he takes a shotgun to the lower leg in both the game and the show, which, you know, despite Joel being a machine that does hamper his ability to stand up and fight just a tad. And then he has multiple people holding him down and he's getting beaten by a golf club. They're taking no chances with Joel.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
So I never really thought that particularly. Like, why didn't Joel make more of a fight here? Right. But evidently, they thought that because Joel is such a juggernaut, that maybe TV viewers would find it more understandable if Dina was there to sort of cow him into not making more of a move. So I don't know. Does that really resonate for you as a rationale?
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
You don't get to rush this. Don't make me get my golf club, Daniel. Let's start with our spoiler warning. It's a little less pressing than it was last week because we got one major spoiler out of the way, but still pretty important. We will be discussing everything on the show through season two, episode two. We will not be discussing future episodes of the second season.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Yeah, there's that moment. He almost lets his guard down because he's distracted. And he's telling them, take what you want. And they're like, do we look like raiders to you? And then he has that epiphany where he actually looks at them and takes their measure and says, no, and then realizes, oh, shit, like these are not just this is not a random raid.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
These people are after me and their military and their ex fireflies. And I think maybe he he even is kind of kicking himself in a sense, not literally. Again, he gets kicked plenty, too, but just like I let my guard down. Usually I'm scanning the environment for threats. And here, because I'm so focused on the threat on Jackson, I didn't realize the threat that I was getting myself into here.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And I do like that moment. And I think Mason even mentioned because he's staring out the window at Jackson and the fires burning there, his impulse is, I got to get back. I got to help those people. And potentially Ellie, who, as far as he knows, is under attack, too. And Ellie kind of has a different reaction where she sees the attack on Jackson going on. And her thought is, I got to get to Joel.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
So that kind of tells you what their priorities are. And that is also going to come into play later in the season, I think, because clearly Ellie will end up prioritizing vengeance for Joel over the protection of Jackson or safeguarding that community. So I think that is a nice little foreshadowing of what will happen here.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And of course, that's a reason why Tommy is not here, is that he has his hands full elsewhere. Tommy's a little bit busy. So because that's kind of an invention of the show, that gives him a reason to be elsewhere. And also, I actually like the fact that Dina is there.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Because even if she is spared witnessing what we see and what Ellie sees, her being there, I think, actually makes it easier to understand why she's motivated to go with Ellie. Assuming that things play out the way they do in the game. And when Ellie sets out to get her revenge on Abby and her crew, Dina goes with her. In the game, that's kind of sudden. That's abrupt.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
You know, like I know they had one kiss and then they had sex one time. And I guess it was great because after that, Dina's willing to go to the ends of the earth to hunt down this guy with someone she's known for a while, but they kind of just got romantically involved. And here, I think the fact that she was present in that scene was, makes it more personal for her.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Plus, she has this relationship with Joel that she doesn't have in the game. And so I actually like that. It's kind of like when they added the motivation for Joel to set off across the country because he was worried about Tommy in season one, which wasn't really present in the game. In the game,
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
In fact, we haven't seen them, but everything else from the Last of Us universe is fair game, so to speak, including the entirety of The Last of Us Part Two. That said, do you feel as relieved as I do that the responsibility, the burden has been lifted from us now? We no longer have to keep the massive secret about what happened to Joe Miller.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
things happen you just go along with it because you're playing right and you just you know they lay the track and you go down it whereas when we're watching passively we're sort of scrutinizing the character's motivations more and thinking gosh if i were dina i mean ellie seems great and all but would i really leave jackson where i've lived for all these years and where i'm sort of safe to go hunt down these people who knows where now i think that actually makes more sense to me
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Yeah, we will return to that when we look forward because, yes, I am also wondering where Tommy will go, if anywhere, next. So one thing that you pointed out to me, the way that they're sort of reshaping Abby's crew here, sort of softening them in some sense, but also kind of combining the actual character roster here.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Do you want to just lay out how exactly they have changed both the portrayal of these characters
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Yeah. And they go about this much more humanely when it comes to the supporting characters, everyone other than Joel, because Mel just anesthetizes Dina, just puts her to sleep. And this is partly because it's Dina, not Tommy. But in the game, Nora just knocks out Tommy by pistol whipping him repeatedly. Now, maybe it's a different proposition to show
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Dina getting pistol whipped than Tommy in the game. Plus, I think all of this is a little bit different in live action than in the game. You know, even if Naughty Dog's animations and graphics are great, it's still a little bit different to have actual flesh and blood. characters on the screen here.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And, you know, it's harder to stomach them getting beaten to a pulp than it is when they are just a collection of pixels and polygons, no matter how lifelike. And so because Mel is really taking care to assure Joel that, no, Dina is going to be OK, I promise. And they're all just kind of worried about how Abby is losing it here.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And in a sense, I found that almost tough to swallow because we've been taught that fireflies, you know, like they do a lot of heinous stuff, even if it's for the right reasons or noble goals, like they're doing bad stuff. Even, you know, Tommy and Eugene were hearing about the things that they've done in the past. And so you're thinking about This crew now, granted, they're younger.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Maybe they weren't fireflies that long. Maybe they didn't have an opportunity to be as brutal. But would they be quite so squeamish about this? Does that say something about how they've changed since they were with the fireflies? I guess the good thing about it is that it does really make the contrast with Abby stronger.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And credit to Caitlin Deaver for just embodying that rage where even as she's laying out, here's why this is happening to you, you can tell that she's kind of losing control, right? And she's going further than anyone else wants her to. And so that I guess it functions well in that sense, in that you kind of get the sense that, OK, Abby's kind of out on an island here.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
You almost wonder, like, how did all these people end up in this room with her? Because it's been five years in the show and they knew what her plan was. And maybe they thought that she wouldn't go through with it either. But. It's just wired very differently than Abby is.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And, you know, maybe it's not quite as personal for them because it wasn't their dad, but presumably it was people they loved and cared about, too. So pluses and minuses where I'm like, you know, they're almost too nice in a sense. But then that does really make the contrast with Abby and her brutality stand out all the more.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Yeah, and it makes you wonder what the relationship with Owen is currently, because in the game lore, they're kind of off and on, and it's not completely clear if they're off or on here, like... In the game, I think it's more clear that they are at least at present off because they go scouting together. They go off, they split off from the main crew and they go off and look at Jackson.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Owen says, I have something to show you. And he shows Abby the city. No one else sees it. And at that moment, they are clearly not together romantically because- Abby's talking about how she's had her fill of him. And also we learn that Mel is pregnant and it's Owen's. And at this point, at least in the TV show, it's not really clear.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Like there's clearly some tenderness here and like hand contact. And are Abby and Owen together? But maybe they won't continue to be after Owen sees Abby's bloodlust exposed here. Because like... Kind of a turnoff, potentially. I mean, hopefully, right? Hopefully not a turn on to see your girlfriend brutally beating this guy, even if from their perspective, he had it coming.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Just in conversation with people talking about the show, not knowing you got to establish the ground rules. What do you know? What do you not know? I just I didn't want to be the one to spoil it for anyone. So I don't want to ruin anyone's Last of Us experience. And now at least this particular cat is out of the bag for anyone who is watching live or close to live.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
But I do kind of wonder whether it will clarify their relationship and what it will turn out to be in this moment.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
So the other big change, and we talked about this last week when it became clear that this was where it was heading, Here we see it just laid out explicitly. Abby explains to Joel and by extension, the audience, why she's killing him in great detail, in contrast to the game where we don't know.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
We don't really know anything about Abby and why she's after Joel and why she is doing this when it happens. And we don't find out until midway through the game when the perspective shifts and we play through things from Abby's view. And that changes this dramatically. Is it for better? Is it for worse? We can debate that.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
I think it's actually an interesting debate to have, but it does make this scene play out quite differently because in the game, Abby asks Joel to guess why she's doing this. And Joel just cuts off the speech that she's practiced. And we get the same sort of line here, the stupid old man, you don't get to rush this line. But she does rush it in the game much more so than here.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And she doesn't just lay out exactly the record of Joel that has prompted her to take revenge here. And there remains some uncertainty, even if you suspect as a player at that point, OK, this must have something to do with the hospital. Even Ellie is not sure of that. And we know that she knows what happened at the hospital. But even she says, as she sets off with Dina, that
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
There are any number of people who might have had a reason to attack Joel and Tommy. They have decades of history of pissing people off and crossing people who might have come back to get them. And so you don't know. And that really changes the experience as a viewer slash player. So what do you think it does?
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
I mean, if you could put yourself in the shoes of someone who's seeing this for the first time and then also analyze it from the perspective of a player, that's Do you like the way that this plays out where Abby is, you know, almost like the classic kind of villain has the protagonist tied up and explains their whole plan and their whole rationale?
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And unlike the typical trope, Joel does not get away, but we do still hear exactly what is on Abby's mind.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
What did you make of the reaction the Internet's take on this episode made? Particularly the fans who did remain unspoiled somehow. It caused quite the uproar, as we were expecting. Yeah. Was it bigger than you expected? Was it the same? Was it different in any way? How would you compare it even to the uproar about the game?
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
It changes everything because even as you're watching versus playing, when Joel saves Abby's life... that makes it even more seem like senseless killing when you're playing this for the first time because it's like what what did this guy do he just bailed you out you were about to get chomped and he shows up in the nick of time and now you're killing him and we understand why that's happening in
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
the show so it's just not nearly as jarring or disorienting i don't want to downplay how massive a surprise it was because clearly it was regardless you know even with all that groundwork being laid but it screws with you so much more i think in some respects when you're playing it for the first time not knowing that backstory and i think the the detail in which she lays it out now i
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
One thing that I did like here is that when Abby says there are just some things everyone agrees are just fucking wrong. Yeah. And Joel agrees. He nods just silently. And we know that he knows what she's talking about. Whereas in the game, maybe he suspects. But again, he could be thinking, oh, man, I did many things that people could be coming to kill me for.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Here he knows exactly what it is and he doesn't protest and he doesn't defend himself and he doesn't say, yeah, but you got to understand what they were going to do to my adopted daughter. He doesn't do any of that. it's as if on some level he's relieved, maybe, that finally someone else knows, because that's another change that we talked about last week.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
As far as we know, it's possible we haven't seen him unburden himself to anyone. He didn't have that scene with Tommy, and he hasn't divulged this in therapy. And so maybe on some level, he's just happy that it's out there, even if clearly he's getting his ass kicked. And on some level, maybe he thinks... he deserves that because he knows it was wrong on some level.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
He did it anyway and he'd do it again. That doesn't mean that he doesn't still feel bad about it and guilty on some level. And so maybe there's part of him that is almost happy he's being punished for this finally. Like I've gotten away with this for too long. And so that is an aspect of the scene that we get because he knows and because we know and because we know that he knows that
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And I enjoyed that aspect of it. I liked seeing his reaction and his resignation and acceptance of it almost. So that in some ways made up for the ways in which it does seem just a little on the nose, just this recitation of, you know, it's almost like he's in court and you're reading out what he's been accused of before you deliver the sentence, you know?
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And it loses something in translation there, but it does gain something also. Yeah.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Which I guess it kind of came in waves because there were the leaks about the game before it came out. And so some people knew much as some people knew from having played the game before they watched the show. But both times it caused quite a stir.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Yeah. Did you think, because you mentioned the nightmare sequence last time, could they have... just shown the nightmare sequence, would that have sufficed? Could they just have hinted at this more? Because they have justified this by saying, look, it's a difference in mediums. You're watching, you're not playing. You don't have this automatic identification with this person.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
As a viewer, you're going to be wondering, who is this? Why are they doing this? Why am I watching this? And they might have to keep us waiting for those answers if the timeline is at all like the games. And so We get it. We understand why maybe it was necessary to make some tweaks. But could there have been more restraint?
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Could they have showed some sort of flashback and made us do the math and conclude here's her motivation? Or maybe let's slip that, OK, she's on some sort of mission that has to do with Joel, but not fully given away the game, literally, in terms of who she is and who her father was and what happened. Like, was there a way to be more measured, more restrained?
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And still give us enough that you would have the grounding and the context to appreciate what's happening.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Yeah, that's why we have five different podcasts covering the show on the Ringer Podcast Network. We've got a variety of perspectives. But yeah, it's true. It's hard to see this with fresh eyes, even if we do our best. But I think that... There is some heavy handedness.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And we talked about this last week with the just screaming to the hilltops that she's immune and then also getting bitten to remind us that she's immune. It's funny because in the game, you do get the scene where she tells Dina that she's immune and Dina doesn't believe her because why would you? She thinks, you know, she's just pranking her.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
But, yeah, it's sold by Caitlin Deaver's performance, I think, as much as we might quibble with, OK, did we need all of this information? I thought it was interesting that Abby says that Joel canonically killed 18 fireflies, excluding her dad in the hospital because. Yeah. In the game, I think you can kill as few as three.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
I don't know that many people had that kind of restraint, but I think like the game canon, I think technically is just like what you see in cut scenes because, you know, you can you can take a more stealthy approach or you can be me and take a more guns blazing approach. But that's what I did, too. Yeah. Yeah, Abby would have plenty of reason to kill me.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
I don't know what my body count was, but probably closer to 18 than three. But I guess show canon is obviously different from game canon, but nice to have the kill count up there, you know, I guess.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And that does make Joel seem even more monstrous. Did you have to kill quite that many people? But also makes him seem... like more of a threat and more of a monster and more capable that he could even bring down, you know, like 18 versus one, that he could actually pull that off. Just, you know, running out of ammo, grabbing another gun, running out of ammo, grabbing another gun.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
So then Ellie shows up and it largely plays out the same way from there. There is, I think, a little more responsiveness on Joel's part. He's not going to get up, obviously, but you see the fingers twitching. You see...
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
He seems to be aware of Ellie in a way that it's tough to tell whether he is in the game at that point because he's just so bloody and beaten that he could just be oblivious and out of it. But here it's clear that he knows Ellie's there. Mason said he hears her and he's aware of her. He wants to get up. He just can't.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
If there's one person in the world that could make him do the impossible, it would be Ellie telling him to get up. It also tells us that he knows that she was there and he got to see her.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And on some level, I guess that's kind of comforting because for a show viewer at this point, now we know that there may have been intervening scenes that we will see via flashback at some point where they actually talk things out a bit and it doesn't go just directly from her berating him at the dance to this bloody final scene.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
So it's kind of comforting maybe for us to know that there was a conversation in there. But if you're watching this for the first time, you're thinking, uh-oh, That was the last time that they talked and it was ugly and they haven't been getting along and now cut straight to being beaten to a bloody pulp.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Maybe it's nice for him to know that she's there and she cares about him and she's clearly distraught and she wants to save him. Then again, would it be comforting to know that Ellie is in this room at this moment? I feel like if I were Joel, I would want Ellie to be as far away from this place as possible.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Yeah. Yeah, Mazin compared it to Aslan getting shaved, his mane getting shaved into the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, which was, I think, a perfect comparison because it did make you feel bad. And you have this character who seems all powerful, like he can do anything. And so you're expecting him to get up until the last moment. I mean, this is a guy who just...
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Yeah. Again, it was spoiled for a lot of people before the game came out. Not me, but because so much of it was leaked, there was this whole round of discourse where people were pissed about some aspects of the game. Now, people were pissed about multiple aspects of The Last of Us Part II, both pre-release and post-release, but...
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
slaughtered, executed 18 fireflies. So, you know, a handful of fireflies should be no problem for him. And so you're expecting until the last second, Ellie will save him. He will save himself. They will turn the table somehow. And it's just heartbreaking that that doesn't happen. at least until you see things from Abby's perspective, perhaps.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
But yeah, if I were Joel, I'd be thinking like, hey, I don't want Ellie to have to see this because like I don't look so hot right now. I don't want her to have this memory and have nightmares of her own and also just be hell bent on exacting vengeance. And also, he doesn't know for sure that Dina or Ellie is safe.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
All he really knows is that these people are beating him to death and they've promised him that everyone else is OK. But can you take their word for that at this moment? So really, he dies not knowing what's going to happen to his adopted daughter and also this other sort of second adopted daughter who he's very fond of.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
So I'm not sure that that's that much more comforting for me to know that he was aware that she was there. But OK, if that brings you comfort, happy to hear it. we get a different death blow. So they did spare us the squelch that we get when the bat finally makes its final blow on Joel's skull. And you definitely see some pulping happen in the game.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
It's not quite as explicit as Glenn in The Walking Dead, but you see that skull being bashed in. And here you don't see this. It's a little more... I don't want to say humane. It's far from that. But it's at least a little less bloody. It's just like drive a spike into the base of his brain, basically. I think there are two advantages of this.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
A, practical effects wise, it's probably a little more manageable not to have to deconstruct Pedro Pascal's face on screen. And also, as we were saying, like they didn't really want to rub people's nose. noses in the violence and kind of glorify the violence. And so, OK, it's over. You're just driving a spike into him. You know, maybe he doesn't feel that at that point.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Also, I think it just makes it more conclusive. Because unless you were actually going to bash his brain in and see his brain splattering all over the room, you know, we're so conditioned by TV to think, oh, maybe he survived somehow. And they make very clear that he did not hear both with the spike and also with his body in the body bag being dragged along behind the horse. Yeah, yeah.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
which is not something that's in the game either. So they're taking away any sort of debate about was this some sort of cliffhanger? Like, are they going to say, is this going to be a Glenn the other time that Glenn seemed to die and then didn't actually and somehow escaped? No, clearly Joel is dead here. And it's a little less like grossly violent than it was in the game.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
I think that coming out even before anyone had actually played the game, really, or before most people have. And then that spilled out. That was in some ways worse, potentially, because you were hearing about it secondhand and no one was having the experience of having played it.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
But yeah, if she'd had her way, she probably would have. But she was being hurried along a little bit there. And I think the game is also like literally darker in terms of the setting, like the room where this takes place, because they go down to a basement. And it's really dark and dingy. And it's just like they're descending into the depths of hell.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And it's almost as if they're like hiding the atrocity that's being committed here, where as it's like a little brighter and nicer in this room. I mean, it doesn't really undercut the brutality of it for me much, but it's another way in which They kind of cleaned it up just a tad, you know, in the show versus the game.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Because it looks like basically a murder dungeon where this is happening in the game. And a little less so. It's like an alpine lodge, you know? It would be a nice room if not for what is taking place in it. Then we also get the Ashley Johnson cover. And I think this was a really nice touch. I think much as having Ashley Johnson show up in season one to play Ellie's mom...
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And, you know, having it make sense in the universe, but then also being a little nod to her and her portrayal of Ellie, but then also to game players and tying these different universes together. Here we hear Ashley Johnson covering the titular 2012 song Through the Valley by Sean James.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And it's a blend of her performance in the original 2016 teaser for the game and a new rendition that she delivered for the show. And I thought this was just really fitting and just a nice nod to us and thematically appropriate and resonant. And I just kind of tipped my hat to that touch.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And then if you did find out when you actually got your hands on the game, well, at that point, you've maybe been waiting seven years since the first Last of Us. And you've spent 15 hours in that first game controlling Joel. Yeah. And then they dropped this bomb on you.
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'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And yeah, we're not big like Easter egg guys just for fan service sakes. Just like, oh, put a nod to the games in because we love the games. But when it makes sense, and I think this was a time when it did. And Mason said, in the end, there's little Ellie gasping for breath with the man who is her father. And we hear the voice of the woman who is her mother. And it's beautiful.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
I don't know if I'd use the word beautiful in this context, but I see what he's saying emotionally. Maybe sometimes the parallel universes touch. We don't do a lot of meta stuff, but sometimes it touches. And if there's a moment where you're free for the universes to touch, it's this one, because this is a shared experience now with everyone.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
We're sort of saying everyone who played the game and now everyone who hasn't. We have lived through this. And I like that, too, because finally we're all on the same page, at least as it concerns Joel's death. And so it's sort of like, OK, TV viewers, they have been read in now. They have the proper clearance, you know, so like.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
We're all just one big, extremely unhappy family watching and playing The Last of Us and Joel's death. And that was just a nice way to unite it. And as Mason said, I can make an argument that for every single line of that song, as it is contrasted against what you're seeing, it's not true. Almost every single thing is this desire to be true, but none of it's true.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
So you look at the lyrics and it's, I walk through the valley of the shadow of death and I fear no evil because I'm blind to it. And my mind and my gun, they comfort me because I know I'll kill my enemies when they come. And yeah, all of that is maybe something that you're going to tell yourself, but it's not really true that your gun's not really going to save you.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
You won't and can't kill all your enemies. You will still feel fear. And then surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life. Clearly not what's happening here. And I will dwell on this earth forevermore. I walk beside the still waters and they restore my soul. Not happening here, but I can't walk on the path of the right because I'm wrong.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And then, you know, finally it ends with, I know when I die, my soul is damned. And that might seem like the one part here that actually is true, but... we know the end of the last of us part two, and maybe that's not completely true too. Maybe there is actually some salvation and restoration here. So it just, it works really well thematically, I think.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
So if anything, the reaction among players was more intense, though maybe more diffuse because people were getting to it at different times and because you could keep playing. So it wasn't just he dies episode over. We have nothing else to discuss for a week. you could press on and immediately see how the rest of the story unfolded.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And that could go over your head entirely and it wouldn't be distracting, you know, if you don't place Ashley Johnson and the lyrics of the song. But if you do, it just adds another layer to your appreciation of the show. and the game, and the way that the two touch. So kudos.
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'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Kudos to Druckmann and Mason and everyone else involved in that coda to an extremely difficult scene at the end of an extremely difficult episode.
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'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
So we touched on this, but ultimately, and you said your final verdict, you're reserving judgment. Jury's still out, which I think is wise. And most of the Internet is not taking that approach. So I commend you on it. But waiting to see how the rest of this season and not just this season, but next season, too. because this is all playing out over multiple seasons.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And OK, we can't evaluate the vision until we've seen it all. But based on what we've seen so far, does the death work better, worse, the same on the show compared to the game?
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Right. So even if you say, OK, maybe this surprise was dampened somewhat, clearly it was still a big twist if you made it all the way.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
But I think what I worry about is just the rest of the game and the way that it unfolds implicates the player in Ellie's violence to an extent in the game, because we're right there with her watching this happen and thinking, screw you, I'm going to kill her for what she did to Joel. Yeah, yeah.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Not knowing that Abby killed Joel out of the same desire that Ellie and we as the players have to get revenge on her. And then when the perspective shifts and you see things from Abby's view, then you kind of question your own sense of the situation and your own bloodthirstiness. And that's this moment of reckoning.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
So it's different this time, but similarly seismic, much like the ending of the first game and the first season, where we kind of knew what was coming. That was a carbon copy. That was basically shot for shot, word for word. And this one was not, as we will be discussing in depth today. But it was similar enough in the big beats that we sort of knew what was in store. And we
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And I don't know that a TV viewer is going to get that just because it's all laid out for us from the start. We know more than Ellie, whereas in the game, we were kind of on the same page with her. We were in her shoes controlling her, but also knowing what she knew.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And so we could still, and I'm sure some people do, still hate Abby for doing this, but it just doesn't seem as baseless, as senseless as it did initially in the game. And so...
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
That's what worries me, I guess, in terms of the long term implications of this and all the ripples and the ramifications and the reverberations and other words that start with R. Just like, will that kind of carry the same psychological effect on the viewer experience? than as it did on the player. And I have my doubts about that.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
So I think that's why I'm with you and kind of leaning toward the game did it better and not even necessarily blaming the show for not doing it as well, but just saying different mediums, limitations of some mediums, advantages of other mediums.
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'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Yeah. And I guess it bugs me a bit because I feel like the game maybe came closer to the creator's original intent in the effects that it wants to make you feel. But maybe there will be a different way in which this works just as well. Ultimately, we'll see. And the fact that some of the same creators are involved here, again, makes me give them the benefit of the doubt for now, at least.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And, you know, I had my issues with The Last of Us Part II, also the game, because it's a game that doesn't really give you much agency. It's still mostly linear, at least when it comes to the big decisions, but then also wants to make you feel kind of guilty and implicated. And it's hard to have it both ways.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Even if part of the point of the game and the story is just as Ellie can't avoid getting sucked into this cycle of violence and revenge, we can't either. But she has a choice in universe and we don't really unless we want to just stop playing the game entirely, which is an option, I guess. And maybe it says something that.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
The enjoyment we're deriving from playing and killing everyone indiscriminately ultimately trumps whatever distaste we have and feel for the character's actions. We still want to keep going. So, you know, I had my issues with that takeaway too, but it at least left you really thinking. And I just wonder whether...
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'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
the decisions that we see in this season will have the same stake power, but we will find out. And ultimately, I think I'm happy to have both versions because as we keep saying, I don't want it to be exactly the same. What's the point of that? We have the game already and people can take their pick if one is more to their liking. And I like the way that they're kind of blending the two.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And it's fascinating to talk about. I think like I really enjoyed discussing this stuff, even if ultimately I sort of side with one over the other. And yeah, I was also thinking about the fact, you know, it's kind of funny that the two major moments of the end of the first game slash season and the start of the second game slash season are kind of contrived from a plot perspective, in a sense.
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'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
didn't disappoint i would say i do feel bad for anyone who made it to sunday and then like didn't watch instantly on sunday night and got spoiled before they could watch it on sunday or on monday or whatever they're like i could wait till the next night or something if you made it all that time and then you got spoiled at the last second i cry for you i am sorry that that happens but
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
We revisit Joel's decision and it's this heart-wrenching decision. And we've all talked about what would we do in that situation? What should he have done? But it's kind of like they had to... Make the circumstances line up just so that he would have that choice and exactly that choice because the fireflies try to kill try to kill Ellie immediately and don't ask her what she wants. Right.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And, you know, partly maybe that's because they don't want to give her the chance to say, actually, no, I'd rather not die for everyone else here. Even if Marlene says that that's the choice Ellie would make, and it probably is, they don't give her the choice to make that. She doesn't have any more agency than we have when we're playing The Last of Us Part II.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
But, you know, they put her under without explaining what's happening. And they do it so fast also. Like, you know, they're ready to kill her before Joel even wakes up from his bump on the head.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And, you know, you'd think that, like, in this situation where you have one immune person and the fate of humanity is hanging in the balance, in addition to this one person, like, wouldn't you just try to maybe synthesize, like, a vaccine or something without killing her? Like, maybe there's, you know, take some blood samples.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Like, you know, maybe you can take a piece of the cordyceps from her brain without destroying all of it. You know, like, just seems like... this potential solution to the plague falls into your hands, you're going to take your time. I mean, I know it's a pressing situation, but you've waited this long, this many years.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
You know, don't do anything rash because you might kill her and then find out that you've just cost yourself a chance to synthesize some sort of cure. So the fact that it's super expedited like that makes it work. Like, this is why Joel has to take everything into his own hands and do it immediately and slaughter everyone because of those circumstances.
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'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And you kind of like don't even notice that they've set it up in just that way because it is such an amazing moral dilemma. But everything kind of has to conspire to make it that way. And same thing for this indelible scene. You do need Joel just to walk right into Abby's trap in a way that seems... kind of improbable.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
It's like, OK, they're debating, how are we going to get this guy out of the city? And then he just shows up and is like, well, I'm Joel. Maybe I can spend the blizzards at your cabin here. So, you know, it's maybe best not to think about some of the circumstances and coincidence that have to line up to produce these memorable moments. But it doesn't make them any less memorable, ultimately. Yeah.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Right. Exactly. And then, you know, if he still makes the choice at that point, I guess there's no dilemma anymore is the thing, because then, OK, Joel is actually a monster. But maybe they think, oh, maybe it's less cruel to just do it without her even knowing and without him having a chance to save her or anything. But. Yeah, it's it's not the best way to go about it.
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'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Their hands are not clean here either. So let's just talk briefly about the attack on Jackson, too, because in the game, Abby stumbles over a few infected under the snow. But here we have a horde. They have multiplied exponentially. Did you like that this happened in the same episode as Joel's death?
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'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Yeah, it was big. It was about as big a water cooler moment as TV can be these days, which is probably less than it once could have. But a Sunday night HBO prestige drama that's one of the biggest shows in the world having this kind of moment, that's about as big a culture quake as scripted TV can cause.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
At first, I thought this is kind of overkill, literally. I mean, that Joel's death scene would have stood on its own You know, just like from a strategic standpoint, why, quote unquote, waste a big battle or burn a big battle in a week when everyone's going to be talking about the show anyway? And we're all going to be talking about Joel's death. Why not just like parcel these out a bit?
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And people have been waiting for the big infected confrontation. It was one of the complaints about the first season. There's not enough infected. It doesn't seem dangerous. enough in this world, at least from the fungal infection. And they thought, OK, you want infected. We're going to give you infected and we're going to give them to you all at once.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And I thought that that scene was much needed and overdue. But I did initially question, will this also be sort of a distraction from a storytelling standpoint? Will this pull focus from the Joel scene? We are actually kind of intercutting between one or the other. And the Joel scene, ultimately, that's the true showstopper.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And so I thought, gosh, if we're all focusing on this big battle, shouldn't we just give the Joel's murder its due? Shouldn't that be the big centerpiece and not have to share the spotlight? But then I thought, maybe, no, maybe it actually enhances the surprise of the outcome of that scene.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Because if you're watching this, maybe you're thinking that like, well, they wouldn't kill Joel while this big battle is going on. Like he has to ride to the rescue. They're not going to just kill him while the whole city and Tommy and everyone else is at stake.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And so maybe that's almost a misdirect where you have your focus on this big battle and you're not thinking they're actually going to kill Joel in this one too. Maybe that actually makes it more of a surprise. Plus what you're saying about just let's, aim for the all time TV highlight here. Let's just do it and be legends.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
You know, like let's, let's not do these things in moderation and we'll give you one big scene one week and one big scene the next week. We'll just overload. We'll just pile it all into this episode and it'll be an absolute highlight of the year. And ultimately I think because that battle scene was executed so well and Joel was executed so well, unfortunately for him,
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
I think it actually did work really well. And it had an additive effect. Like they worked well in tandem, even better than they would have in isolation.
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'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
So I was kind of cringing in anticipation of it, but also happy that it was going to just happen and be done and be behind us. And so... I was kind of just watching the world burn on Sunday night as people were finding out about it.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Yeah. And also, this is something the game didn't give us really conflict on this scale. There were allusions to raids and hunters and infected attacks on Jackson, but we didn't get to see or play anything like this. So that's a feather in the cap of the game and HBO's budget. One other thing about this, I think it would be satisfying if Abby inadvertently caused the attack on Jackson.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
through her actions because her goal is to exact vengeance on one person and one person only, at least ostensibly. It's supposed to be a targeted attack. But one of the messages of The Last of Us is that you can't confine violence and vengeance to one person because there are all these ripple effects and there are unintended consequences and collateral damage and innocent bystanders.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And it's self-perpetuating. So I like the idea that in searching for Joel and only Joel, Abby woke up all of these infected and then they get redirected to Jackson. And that blood is kind of on her hands, too, unbeknownst to her, perhaps. And so I think you could interpret it that way.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
I don't know if we can confidently claim that because maybe they would have woken up and attacked the city anyway when the mycelium got damaged because it's in the city, it's in the pipes, and they've laid the groundwork for that. And so, you know, Joel and Elia put down roots, so has Cordyceps in this city. So I guess you could say that once they were woken up by Abby, then they could be culled.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Would they have been summoned the way that they were as a mass unit if she had not already gotten them started? I don't know. Do you think that we can say, yeah, that was all Abby's fault or would much of that have happened regardless just because of that wayward ax strike?
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Yeah, sure. She expedited their efforts. That much seems safe to say. OK, let's just close with a little bit of looking forward and previewing and speculating. Will Tommy stay or go now? Because we know in the game he sets off before anyone else. He actually he sneaks out. He knows that Ellie is hellbent on revenge.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
He wants to be the one who goes and he actually wants Maria to keep Ellie in the city. Fat chance. Good luck with that. But he has a head start. And now, as you're saying, well, he wasn't there when Joel was killed. He didn't see it himself. He also has a son. And also, he has a city to rebuild and repair. So as the leader that the show has positioned him as, can he actually depart at this point?
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
So do you think he will stay in Jackson and Ellie and Dina will have to go it alone?
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
It's time, finally. Yeah. What do you think the reaction will be to this after this episode, now that this is done? Will the audience grow because of the conversation this caused and people saying, oh, they'll do anything on this series. We don't know what's coming next.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Right. And it would be helpful, I guess, for him to make a different choice than Ellie does. And for him to say, I want to be out there killing these people as much as anyone. That's my brother. But I have obligations here. I have to stay. And then we'll see Ellie maybe make a different choice.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Another thing that and that doesn't mean he couldn't show up later, you know, once he rebuilds the walls or something. And we'll still get some of those confrontations, but it'll happen in a different order. Druckmann said Jackson is now a character in the story.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
This is something we talked about last week, that they were just taking more pains to sort of establish Jackson as a living, breathing place. And Druckmann says it's a character that people have to take into account going forward. What does that mean? Not only have we lost this beloved character, but we've lost a lot of other people. And now the safety of this town is compromised.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Where do we go from here to present that dilemma going forward? It gave us the excuse to make this completely badass siege of Jackson. So he's suggesting that that wasn't just because we wanted a CGI spectacle and give people all the violence that they wanted. But there was a reason for this and that we have to justify Tommy staying maybe.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Though that then makes me think, like, how much Jackson are we going to get? And how interesting will that be? Just to see, like, Jackson being rebuilt. Because, you know, if we're following Ellie and Dina or maybe even Abby... Are we going to be bored going back to Jackson where it's like, you know, putting the walls up again?
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Like what else is going to be going on in Jackson while while we're watching these searches for revenge?
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
In a Game of Thrones kind of way, where it's either Ned Stark in season one or the Red Wedding or whatever it was that really contributed to the mystique of the show and helped make it such a sensation that it could have those moments and you never knew what was going to happen next. Or...
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And maybe it's a larger, almost Walking Dead-style showdown between civilizations and larger forces here, as opposed to the individual battle that it largely becomes in the games. Yeah. Maybe the violence comes back to Jackson. Who knows how they could build these things up? But we're pretty confident that we know where Ellie is going to go.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And Dina's line at the dance scene, oh, Ellie, I think they should be terrified of you. We'll see the double meaning of that line when she starts striking fear into her adversaries here. When... do you think we'll see Abby again and how much?
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
We've seen the next time on preview and there is a brief shot of Caitlin Deaver's face, but it could be from any point in the season or any point in the future of the show. We don't really, she's just lying there. So do you think we will now take an Abby break for a bit?
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Yeah, I'd be surprised if it were like the game where we don't see her again for hours and hours. But one week, I think, would maybe be good just to kind of, you know, have everyone lick their wounds. And because if you're introducing Abby this early and her backstory and everything, then it probably doesn't make sense to do that and then also put her on the back burner for the rest of the season.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Right. And you have Caitlin Deaver. You should use her. But I think, you know, maybe one episode that's more Jackson focused as we see the aftermath of all of these tragedies, multiple tragedies, that might be good. And my last question for you maybe is when we will get the first Joel flashback, because we know it's coming.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
We know we're going to get the guitar scene at a certain point, which came very early in the game. And we haven't seen it yet. The porch scene, of course, which has been Like, you know, we kind of know it's going to be inserted into the chronology at some point here, but we haven't seen it.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
The heart to heart that Joel and Ellie have where they kind of lay it all out there or just any other Joel scene. When do you think the show will establish? OK, Pedro Pascal's character is dead, but he's not gone entirely.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Could it be something that backfires in almost a Walking Dead way where everyone other than me stopped watching The Walking Dead soon after Glenn's brutal murder? I am still somehow watching Walking Dead. Dead City season two comes out soon. I will never be free. But I keep catching myself calling the infected walkers also. It's tempting.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Yeah, it looks pretty faithful to what comes next in the game based on the little bit of footage that we've seen. I would also be okay, though, with taking a beat here with Joel and going an episode without him because does it kind of undercut the emotional effect of losing this character if immediately they give us... Joel memories.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
You know, it would be nice in a sense not to torment us, as Mason said, to make it clear that Ellie and Joel, they did kind of mend fences a little bit because we're kind of thinking, oh, if she had only gotten up earlier, she could have gone on the patrol with him and they could have hashed it out and could have been in a better place when the murder happened or maybe it wouldn't have happened at all.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
But if they kind of give us that reassurance immediately, like I kind of want them to let people stew in the sadness for a little while, like make us feel the deprivation that Ellie feels like I'm not going to see this guy again. If they start immediately serving up Joel flashbacks, you know, I definitely want to see them and I know that we'll see them. But give me one episode.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Give me a bit of a breather here before you start taking us back to Joel.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Yeah. The happy birthday kiddo scene. Yeah. Yeah. That's going to be tough. Yes, it is. So is much of the rest of the season. That's true. We're still looking forward to it apprehensively, and we're looking forward to a lot of things on the Ringiverse feed as well, which is my segue into our closing programming teases to tell you what's in store here on the very busy Ringiverse feed.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
On Friday, tomorrow, I'll be joining the Junior Mints, Jomie and Steve, on Mint Edition as we discuss the PlayStation video game adaptation that everyone's talking about. No, not The Last of Us. We can do five different Last of Us podcasts, but six would be a bridge too far.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
So on Mint Edition, we'll be discussing Until Dawn, another Sony PlayStation Productions video game adaptation, which is hitting theaters this week. On Saturday, The Midnight Boys. Pew, pew. There you go. I was going to say, you'll get it done one of these weeks. We've got five more of these podcasts.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Yeah, you got it.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
The Midnight Boys will be posting their third pod of the week, working overtime, working weekends. I mean, they prerecorded, but, you know, from your perspective. Midnight Munchies apocalypse food will be coming out on the Midnight Boys feed. I guess I was wrong. There is sort of a sixth Last of Us pod, maybe, but this one is different. It's about food.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
From my many years of Walking Dead watching and also white walkers, which was hard to avoid in this episode in particular. But... Do you think there will be a backlash or will it be the opposite of that? It'll be like, oh, they went there. Okay, now I really got to pay attention to what comes next.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
No. And on Sunday night, the Midnight Boys, the Pew Pew, will have their, well, you know, we don't have to Pew Pew every time. I'm going to say Midnight Boys like five times, so. They'll have their Last of Us Episode 3 instant reactions up. And while we're doing weekly button mashes on The Last of Us, it's tough to find time for video game pods, which is the mandate of button mash.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
But we're going to try to squeeze one in on Monday because we've got a double RPG blowout. A new RPG classic came out this week, Claire Obscura Expedition 33, and an old RPG classic, The Elder Scrolls IV Oblivion. that just got a fresh coat of paint with a surprise released remaster. So we will talk about those two titans of the RPG genre.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
The whole Ringerverse crew will then discuss other highlights of the April release calendar on Ringerverse Recommends for this month. It's the one-year anniversary of the series. How about that? And then the Midnight Boys yet again on Thunderbolts next Friday, and then it starts all over again.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
So the Ringerverse feed never sleeps at this time of year, and neither does House of R, because over on the House of R feed, We've got Last of Us and Andor deep dives on Mondays and Thursdays for the next several weeks. Rinse and repeat. Plus, Mal and Joe's Thunderbolts deep dive next Friday.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And Daniel, in addition to recapping The Last of Us, which will be up at TheRinger.com, what a great website, every Sunday night. So you can click over there as soon as you watch to read his take. He will also be covering Thunderbolts on the website. giving you a primer and maybe a post-release take as well.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
So we're going to be busy in multiple mediums, just like the last of us doing double duty here. We're on pods, we're on the website, we're on video, we're covering things, full court press for this property. Thank you to Devin Rinaldo for producing today's episode. and to Arjuna Ramgopal for additional production support. Again, I will remind everyone to email us at ringerversegaming at gmail.com.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Yeah, that was the season seven premiere of The Walking Dead. Yeah. Sorry to anyone who just got spoiled about Glenn dying, but I think statute of limitations on spoilers for that has passed. But I think because that was much deeper into the show's run, maybe people were looking for an excuse to get off the bandwagon if they hadn't already. And then it was just so gratuitous. Yeah.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Hello and welcome into The Ringerverse, your Nexus feed for all things fandom. I am Ben Lindberg, senior editor for The Ringer, and with me is my co-host for these Button Mash Last of Us Season 2 episodes. I made him a part of this. Ringer staff writer Daniel Chin. Daniel, why don't you say whatever speech you've got rehearsed and get this over with.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And I think that they maybe took pains not to do that this time. Not that it wasn't brutal. It absolutely was. But it was maybe slightly less dark and kind of hyper violent in some ways than the game was. We can talk about that. But I think they were conscious of that.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Like, look, people like Joel and people like Pedro Pascal, and we don't want to bash his brains in in the way that Glenn's brains were bashed in and also video game Joel's brains were bashed in. Yeah. Because then we might actually turn people off. So I... I kind of wonder whether that came up in conversation or whether they had that in mind.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Like you can push people, but don't go too far or they might turn on you. But I think I'm with you that they did not cross that line and that if anything, it will only enhance interest.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
So what's your quick take? Let's just give our high-level reaction here before we dive deeper into all of the changes and our analysis of those changes. How do you think they did porting this major moment to the screen in a different medium?
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Yeah, I'm excited to talk about some of these changes. I think there are ways in which the game version is more effective, maybe some ways in which the show version is more effective. They are ultimately quite different, and the differences might be in the eye of the beholder, but... I say overall, this was a TV event, the kind that doesn't come along very often.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And it actually was an episode that made me wish I hadn't played the games because I wanted to be one of the people who was not expecting this because the impact was blunted. Much, much unlike the impact of the golf club on Joel, for me, at least, because we were anticipating it. We didn't know it was coming this week necessarily, but we knew this Sunday, next Sunday, it's coming soon.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And so you're anticipating it and you know that it's coming and you just can't feel the same shock that you felt the first time. And so I sort of envied people who were experiencing this for the first time. But they pulled out all the stops. I mean, this was in some ways bigger than the way that it was portrayed in the game.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And I don't want to abuse the Game of Thrones comparisons, but everyone was saying Red Wedding. I mean, this was the Red Wedding and Hardhome combined. This was the big twist of Joel and Ellie combined with the big battle scene that the show hadn't really given us up to this point. So they held back nothing. And it landed.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
This produced the kind of moment that they thought it would, that they were aiming for. So mission accomplished, I think, at least in terms of generating attention and making it as brutal, as satisfying, as absorbing as it should have been, as it deserved to be. So we welcome your emails, as always. Send us your questions, your comments, your complaints about the show, your praise for the show.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
at ringerversegaming at gmail.com we'd like to incorporate some reader listener feedback so let us know if you have questions we will address them on a future episode and now we can just get into our breakdown of what was different what was the same we'll be focusing mainly on the Joel murder but also on the big attack on Jackson and other aspects of the episode and then we'll wrap up again by looking forward and trying to preview what could be coming next but
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
In the broad strokes, this was quite similar. So just to run down the same beats that were in the game and the TV show, same aftermath of the dance scene kiss. We talked last week about how that comes much later in the game. You don't actually see that scene until late in the game, whereas it's front loaded in the season here. But chronologically in the universe, it happens at the same time.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Nope. Nothing special. Just a routine episode of television that we will be talking about today. We are here to discuss The Last of Us Season 2, Episode 2, Through the Valley, written by Craig Mazin, directed by Game of Thrones and Succession legend Mark Mylod. If you were with us last week... You know the drill.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And so we see the same sort of fallout from that. There's a big storm. Ellie hunkers down in Eugene's weed den. Owen wants to leave. The other ex-fireflies are getting cold feet, literally and figuratively. They're thinking, how can we persuade Abby not to go through with this? Abby goes out scouting, runs into some buried infected, complete with the chain link fence, close call.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Again, that's almost shot for shot. Joel rides in. He had left on an early patrol. He saves her. He then gets delivered right into the ex-Firefly's hands. Abby brutally beats him to death with a golf club while Ellie watches and vows revenge. So all that, similar. much like the big hospital scene and the big lie at the end of season one were.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
However, there were some major deviations here, and I think they're really interesting to discuss. First, let's talk about the timing, because we were wondering, would they hold back? And ultimately, they didn't. And I celebrate that. I'm glad that they didn't. We thought, would you be tempted because you have Pedro Pascal and you have this character people care about?
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Are you going to make us wait until later in the season? And they didn't do it.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Yeah. Neil Druckmann said, even in the game, there's like an hour or something before you get to this moment. But we also knew it needed to be early enough because this is the inciting incident for this story. So, yes, we always pick every permutation. They considered every option.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
But the later it got in the season, it just felt like we were kind of dragging our feet instead of getting to the meat of what the story is about. And I think that would have been palpable. If they had held this out for episode three or even later, we might have sensed that spinning of wheels a little bit.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
Whereas here, I think they did it soon enough that they could still surprise people and also just kick the season into high gear. Mazin also said there's a danger of tormenting people. It's not what we want to do. That's exactly what Abby wants to do, but not the creators of the show. If people know it's coming, they will start to feel tormented.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
And people who don't know it's coming are going to find out it's coming because people are going to talk about the fact that it hasn't shown up yet. Our instinct was to make sure that when we did it, that it felt natural in the story and was not some meta function of us wanting to upset people. So it's true.
The Ringer-Verse
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash
The longer they drag this out, the fewer people would have been surprised by it because it would have been a big talking point on this show and many others. Why haven't they done it yet? When will they do it? And inevitably, some people would have picked up on that.