Anjan Katta

They didn't have a mouse. If you go actually far enough back, everything was just keyboard. So the idea of literally having a mouse, the idea of having a cursor, of dragging and dropping files and moving it around, and actually you can be able to see that, that was literally all had to be invented and at the time not obvious.

They didn't have a mouse. If you go actually far enough back, everything was just keyboard. So the idea of literally having a mouse, the idea of having a cursor, of dragging and dropping files and moving it around, and actually you can be able to see that, that was literally all had to be invented and at the time not obvious.

And so folks like Doug Engelbart, there's an amazing demo you can look up. These are the people who inspired Alan Kay. He had basically predicted like in 50 years ago what computing was going to be. The possibility of networked communication that we could message each other.

And so folks like Doug Engelbart, there's an amazing demo you can look up. These are the people who inspired Alan Kay. He had basically predicted like in 50 years ago what computing was going to be. The possibility of networked communication that we could message each other.

The idea of the mouse, believe it or not, that was like people were skeptical that people would ever use a mouse or that was even a good idea. Essentially, at Xerox PARC, they came up with the future of computing, what would be a normal desktop and what's your MacBook today. Wow. And Apple and so on basically just got their ideas from Xerox PARC and implemented it. No way. Yeah.

The idea of the mouse, believe it or not, that was like people were skeptical that people would ever use a mouse or that was even a good idea. Essentially, at Xerox PARC, they came up with the future of computing, what would be a normal desktop and what's your MacBook today. Wow. And Apple and so on basically just got their ideas from Xerox PARC and implemented it. No way. Yeah.

they laugh i mean they think it's naive that's why it was so disillusioning for me i thought it was this place of idealism and i kind of believe the whole like hey they're trying to change the world for the better and you get there and it's not that at all it's sterile it's transactional yeah it's like pre-med and goldman sachs and mckinsey energy masquerading for you know wanting to invent things

they laugh i mean they think it's naive that's why it was so disillusioning for me i thought it was this place of idealism and i kind of believe the whole like hey they're trying to change the world for the better and you get there and it's not that at all it's sterile it's transactional yeah it's like pre-med and goldman sachs and mckinsey energy masquerading for you know wanting to invent things

It's now the high status thing to do is to be in startups or technology or Silicon Valley. And so there's something that just shifts deeply in culture when you go from kind of hippies and idealists and nerds and people who almost do this because they don't know what else they'll do. They're not employable elsewhere. They're not going to fit into normal culture. Now it's the exact opposite.

It's now the high status thing to do is to be in startups or technology or Silicon Valley. And so there's something that just shifts deeply in culture when you go from kind of hippies and idealists and nerds and people who almost do this because they don't know what else they'll do. They're not employable elsewhere. They're not going to fit into normal culture. Now it's the exact opposite.

It's the people who are the optimizers, the performers. And so when you try to come back to these deeper ideals that technology deeply shapes us and therefore we have a moral responsibility to make it in a way that's actually wise, you're laughed at. You're laughed at the same way when you brought up healthy food back in the day. People are like, are you kidding me?

It's the people who are the optimizers, the performers. And so when you try to come back to these deeper ideals that technology deeply shapes us and therefore we have a moral responsibility to make it in a way that's actually wise, you're laughed at. You're laughed at the same way when you brought up healthy food back in the day. People are like, are you kidding me?

You think you're going to stop people from eating junk food? You're going to stop people from eating the thing that is like...

You think you're going to stop people from eating junk food? You're going to stop people from eating the thing that is like...

evolutionarily they're built for to be vulnerable to like give me a break right you're considered naive as hell and so that's the first thing is people it's they look down at you consider you to be super naive no humans want to be addicted yeah we want to be distracted we want to be controlled we want to be overstimulated how are you going to stop that

evolutionarily they're built for to be vulnerable to like give me a break right you're considered naive as hell and so that's the first thing is people it's they look down at you consider you to be super naive no humans want to be addicted yeah we want to be distracted we want to be controlled we want to be overstimulated how are you going to stop that

And that just absolutely just fucking pissed me off to no end. Because what the hell happened to the idea that, hey, we have a responsibility to try to make amazing things for people and improve their lives. When the hell did this become a pandering culture? When the hell did this become a culture of, we'll just do what's easiest for people? Yeah.

And that just absolutely just fucking pissed me off to no end. Because what the hell happened to the idea that, hey, we have a responsibility to try to make amazing things for people and improve their lives. When the hell did this become a pandering culture? When the hell did this become a culture of, we'll just do what's easiest for people? Yeah.

When did this become a culture of like, we'll have the most cynical viewpoints of what human nature is. And that's the big problem here is the way computers are being designed is they're not optimistic at all about human nature. They're not optimistic at all about our ability to self empower ourselves. They're completely cynical.

When did this become a culture of like, we'll have the most cynical viewpoints of what human nature is. And that's the big problem here is the way computers are being designed is they're not optimistic at all about human nature. They're not optimistic at all about our ability to self empower ourselves. They're completely cynical.

And so even if you think of a normal computer screen or blue light, they're like, yeah, whatever. People are never going to know about that. And I think the point of a podcast like yours and others is like, no, dude, people aren't dumb. We want things to change. We want the best things for ourselves and our families. And these guys are never going to do it because they just...

And so even if you think of a normal computer screen or blue light, they're like, yeah, whatever. People are never going to know about that. And I think the point of a podcast like yours and others is like, no, dude, people aren't dumb. We want things to change. We want the best things for ourselves and our families. And these guys are never going to do it because they just...

It's far more profitable. It's far easier to just be cynical and pander to people and sell them junk food. And I think that's the problem with computers today is they're junk food computers.

It's far more profitable. It's far easier to just be cynical and pander to people and sell them junk food. And I think that's the problem with computers today is they're junk food computers.

That's the big idea here is we're so numb and overstimulated and so bombarded, we have normalized the way we feel, the way computers make us feel, the way it impacts us. And until you actually go out of your way, you don't realize what the hell, how tired I am, how much brain fog I have. How much it screws up, you're sleeping.

That's the big idea here is we're so numb and overstimulated and so bombarded, we have normalized the way we feel, the way computers make us feel, the way it impacts us. And until you actually go out of your way, you don't realize what the hell, how tired I am, how much brain fog I have. How much it screws up, you're sleeping.

I mean, I think this is why you feel so good when you go camping and you just get away from everything for a week. Totally. Suddenly you start sleeping well. Suddenly you get up with the sun. Suddenly everything.

I mean, I think this is why you feel so good when you go camping and you just get away from everything for a week. Totally. Suddenly you start sleeping well. Suddenly you get up with the sun. Suddenly everything.

It's almost crazy that we've ended up this way because if you were diabolical and you were to design a society, you would come up with something similar to this. Check up everybody's nervous system such that they can't really think or feel. They're just reacting to things. And give them something in front of them that can give them endless stimulation.

It's almost crazy that we've ended up this way because if you were diabolical and you were to design a society, you would come up with something similar to this. Check up everybody's nervous system such that they can't really think or feel. They're just reacting to things. And give them something in front of them that can give them endless stimulation.

That's an endless slot machine of variable reward. and put their physiology in a state between the blue light, the fact that it is bright light and it's flickering, such that you're always craving stimulation. Boom. Boom. Brave new world right there. Have you read Brave New World or Neil Postman? No, I haven't. I almost want to read it out loud. It's so good at describing this.

That's an endless slot machine of variable reward. and put their physiology in a state between the blue light, the fact that it is bright light and it's flickering, such that you're always craving stimulation. Boom. Boom. Brave new world right there. Have you read Brave New World or Neil Postman? No, I haven't. I almost want to read it out loud. It's so good at describing this.

I grew up in a small nickel mining town in the east side of Canada. The son of a crazy psychiatrist. Our house was covered in books. There was maybe 10 people in the town who were not Caucasian. And so from the beginning, I was just an alien, an outsider, and the son of a crazy psychiatrist.

I grew up in a small nickel mining town in the east side of Canada. The son of a crazy psychiatrist. Our house was covered in books. There was maybe 10 people in the town who were not Caucasian. And so from the beginning, I was just an alien, an outsider, and the son of a crazy psychiatrist.

Let's see if I can pull this up.

Let's see if I can pull this up.

Okay. So this guy named Neil Postman wrote this book called musing ourselves to death.

Okay. So this guy named Neil Postman wrote this book called musing ourselves to death.

I think it's forward to the book just describes what we're talking about. So incredibly. So I'm going to read it out. We were keeping our eye on 1984. When the year came and the prophecy didn't, thoughtful Americans sang softly in praise of themselves. The roots of liberal democracy had held. Wherever else the terror had happened, we at least had not been visited by Orwellian nightmares.

I think it's forward to the book just describes what we're talking about. So incredibly. So I'm going to read it out. We were keeping our eye on 1984. When the year came and the prophecy didn't, thoughtful Americans sang softly in praise of themselves. The roots of liberal democracy had held. Wherever else the terror had happened, we at least had not been visited by Orwellian nightmares.

we had forgotten that alongside orwell's dark vision there was another slightly older slightly less less well-known equally chilling aldous huxley's brave new world contrary to common belief even amongst the educated huxley and orwell did not prophecy the same thing orwell warns that we will be overcome by an externally imposed oppression but in huxley's vision

we had forgotten that alongside orwell's dark vision there was another slightly older slightly less less well-known equally chilling aldous huxley's brave new world contrary to common belief even amongst the educated huxley and orwell did not prophecy the same thing orwell warns that we will be overcome by an externally imposed oppression but in huxley's vision

No big brother is required to deprive people of their autonomy, maturity, and history. As he saw it, people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think. What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.

No big brother is required to deprive people of their autonomy, maturity, and history. As he saw it, people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think. What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.

orwell feared those who would deprive us of information hoxley feared those who would give us so much that would be reduced to passivity and egoism orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us hoxley feared the truth would be drowned out in a sea of irrelevance orwell feared we would become a captive culture

orwell feared those who would deprive us of information hoxley feared those who would give us so much that would be reduced to passivity and egoism orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us hoxley feared the truth would be drowned out in a sea of irrelevance orwell feared we would become a captive culture

Huxley feared we'd become a trivial culture, preoccupied with some equivalent of the feelies, the orgy-porgy, and the centrifugal bumble puppy. As Huxley remarked in Brave New World Revisited, the civil liberties and rationalists who were ever on the alert to prose tyranny failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions.

Huxley feared we'd become a trivial culture, preoccupied with some equivalent of the feelies, the orgy-porgy, and the centrifugal bumble puppy. As Huxley remarked in Brave New World Revisited, the civil liberties and rationalists who were ever on the alert to prose tyranny failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions.

In 1984, Huxley added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they're controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we hate will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we love will ruin us. This book is about the possibility that Huxley and not Orwell was right.

In 1984, Huxley added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they're controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we hate will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we love will ruin us. This book is about the possibility that Huxley and not Orwell was right.

It really is. Whether it be the perspective of government, whether it be the perspective of these multi-trillion dollar tech companies that hit their earnings and please Wall Street by ever having our attention. The setup we have right now with computers is we're passive. They control us. They dominate our lives. They stimulate us. They keep us away from actually thinking. Because guess what?

It really is. Whether it be the perspective of government, whether it be the perspective of these multi-trillion dollar tech companies that hit their earnings and please Wall Street by ever having our attention. The setup we have right now with computers is we're passive. They control us. They dominate our lives. They stimulate us. They keep us away from actually thinking. Because guess what?

If you could actually think, you could start questioning the system. And so we have, in my opinion, an incredible societal setup to have... know freedom and not even know it because we're so busy indulging in information and stimulation and addiction and distraction. And so there's a,

If you could actually think, you could start questioning the system. And so we have, in my opinion, an incredible societal setup to have... know freedom and not even know it because we're so busy indulging in information and stimulation and addiction and distraction. And so there's a,

So Austrian economics, we were early to organic foods, a lot of these different health trends, arcane rhythms, a long time ago. That's kind of the milieu I grew up in. Because he could see for his patients, how much the conventional practice was not helping, how much just the drug paradigm, the materialist scientific reductive paradigm just did not understand that we have psyches.

So Austrian economics, we were early to organic foods, a lot of these different health trends, arcane rhythms, a long time ago. That's kind of the milieu I grew up in. Because he could see for his patients, how much the conventional practice was not helping, how much just the drug paradigm, the materialist scientific reductive paradigm just did not understand that we have psyches.

There's a way in which reforming computers is actually core to reforming freedom, is core to reforming our ability to think for ourselves. And what I got really interested in was the idea that the actual physical hardware of a computer plays a big role with the blue light, with the flickering, with the emissive light in keeping us enraptured and stuck.

There's a way in which reforming computers is actually core to reforming freedom, is core to reforming our ability to think for ourselves. And what I got really interested in was the idea that the actual physical hardware of a computer plays a big role with the blue light, with the flickering, with the emissive light in keeping us enraptured and stuck.

And so, yeah, my big idea was if you were to change that, you were like, kind of what you're hinting towards, if you could change the display technology to not have that physiological enrapturing effect. Maybe we could start to change computers from being these portals and slot machines and...

And so, yeah, my big idea was if you were to change that, you were like, kind of what you're hinting towards, if you could change the display technology to not have that physiological enrapturing effect. Maybe we could start to change computers from being these portals and slot machines and...

these black holes of all of our attention and time into just another object or tool that you find useful and you put away.

these black holes of all of our attention and time into just another object or tool that you find useful and you put away.

Well, I think that's what's so heartbreaking about this is they're the most conscious about this. People don't know this fact. I think it should be absolutely well known. Steve Jobs didn't allow his own kids to have iPhones or iPads until they were 16. but he is happy as hell to sell it to your kids. How is that not like on the front page of everything?

Well, I think that's what's so heartbreaking about this is they're the most conscious about this. People don't know this fact. I think it should be absolutely well known. Steve Jobs didn't allow his own kids to have iPhones or iPads until they were 16. but he is happy as hell to sell it to your kids. How is that not like on the front page of everything?

That's for real? Yeah, you can look it up. Wow. How is that not on the front page of everything that this guy who invented it knew what its negative impact was on a developing brain? And he's happy to sell it to the rest of you. You look at Mark Zuckerberg, he doesn't allow his kids to have social media or phones. Right. He himself uses...

That's for real? Yeah, you can look it up. Wow. How is that not on the front page of everything that this guy who invented it knew what its negative impact was on a developing brain? And he's happy to sell it to the rest of you. You look at Mark Zuckerberg, he doesn't allow his kids to have social media or phones. Right. He himself uses...

Uses an e-paper tablet, but he's trying to get you to put the screen to be your entire life.

Uses an e-paper tablet, but he's trying to get you to put the screen to be your entire life.

2017.

2017.

Hanuman.

Hanuman.

There's a whole deeper human that's just the factory medicine model is not working. I mean, so he was very anti-authoritarian. He was very... could see how much the conventional view did not work. And that was kind of bred into me. And that's what this is, is a lifetime of kind of questioning the, the Holy cows as, as Jack puts it.

There's a whole deeper human that's just the factory medicine model is not working. I mean, so he was very anti-authoritarian. He was very... could see how much the conventional view did not work. And that was kind of bred into me. And that's what this is, is a lifetime of kind of questioning the, the Holy cows as, as Jack puts it.

Dude, I think that's the point here is like, it's not to be Luddites and throw this stuff away.

Dude, I think that's the point here is like, it's not to be Luddites and throw this stuff away.

And say completely, no, we can't have technology. Right, right. This stuff is incredible.

And say completely, no, we can't have technology. Right, right. This stuff is incredible.

It's how do we carve out the better for you parts of computing and remove all the ways in which it's predatory. Yes. That it's not been optimized for human health, for human psychology, for any of it. And early days computers, they were not like this. Like you sat down with a computer and you like...

It's how do we carve out the better for you parts of computing and remove all the ways in which it's predatory. Yes. That it's not been optimized for human health, for human psychology, for any of it. And early days computers, they were not like this. Like you sat down with a computer and you like...

could do your work and then you put it away it's the problem now is they're always on you all the time and these algorithms are so incredibly good at finding out exactly what you like and then just feeding it to you till ever and yeah there's a i love this quote which is back in the day gary kasparov you know the world's best chess player was playing deep blue this ai by ibm um

could do your work and then you put it away it's the problem now is they're always on you all the time and these algorithms are so incredibly good at finding out exactly what you like and then just feeding it to you till ever and yeah there's a i love this quote which is back in the day gary kasparov you know the world's best chess player was playing deep blue this ai by ibm um

And the famous thing here is for the first time ever, a computer had beaten the world's best chess player. And that computer Deep Blue, that AI that beat Garry Kasparov back then, that was a million times less powerful than the AIs and computers we have today.

And the famous thing here is for the first time ever, a computer had beaten the world's best chess player. And that computer Deep Blue, that AI that beat Garry Kasparov back then, that was a million times less powerful than the AIs and computers we have today.

So you now today have a million times more powerful computer every minute playing a game against you, which is addict you and get you to spend as much time as possible. That's what they have on their internal dashboard, their OKRs, how much time, how much engagement we get from a customer. And you don't even know you're playing a game against this.

So you now today have a million times more powerful computer every minute playing a game against you, which is addict you and get you to spend as much time as possible. That's what they have on their internal dashboard, their OKRs, how much time, how much engagement we get from a customer. And you don't even know you're playing a game against this.

If Garry Kasparov lost back then, what chance do we have today? And I don't think people realize it because it just seems like, oh, I'm just reading something or watching something. They do not understand the system of control. And also, he was aware he was playing the game. He was aware he was playing the game. We're not. We have no...

If Garry Kasparov lost back then, what chance do we have today? And I don't think people realize it because it just seems like, oh, I'm just reading something or watching something. They do not understand the system of control. And also, he was aware he was playing the game. He was aware he was playing the game. We're not. We have no...

And so that's, it's like when you start to realize actually how much this benefits the current status quo of society to have people this way, no wonder they don't want to change computers. And you can't come out and suddenly if you're Tim Cook and say, Hey, this is the iPad healthy edition, you know, no longer has blue light and no longer flickers.

And so that's, it's like when you start to realize actually how much this benefits the current status quo of society to have people this way, no wonder they don't want to change computers. And you can't come out and suddenly if you're Tim Cook and say, Hey, this is the iPad healthy edition, you know, no longer has blue light and no longer flickers.

Cause you're gonna be like, so every iPad before was not healthy. Like,

Cause you're gonna be like, so every iPad before was not healthy. Like,

right you're not you're not going to come out and yeah that's not yeah right jeopardize your entire business and every everything you sell yeah i see what you're saying and so if more people just knew that so many of the people in silicon valley don't allow their kids to use phones and ipads and social media and unrestricted access they're all incredibly careful

right you're not you're not going to come out and yeah that's not yeah right jeopardize your entire business and every everything you sell yeah i see what you're saying and so if more people just knew that so many of the people in silicon valley don't allow their kids to use phones and ipads and social media and unrestricted access they're all incredibly careful

We, we got, we got some early offers to, to buy ourselves out from some, one of the big guys, but really, yeah, but that's, and then what was the, like, what was the terms of it?

We, we got, we got some early offers to, to buy ourselves out from some, one of the big guys, but really, yeah, but that's, and then what was the, like, what was the terms of it?

No, I haven't. It's fascinating actually how many cultures have this monkey god or monkey king, even in Chinese cultures. But in Indian culture, he's like the god of strength and energy. And this like devoted servant to Rama. Have you heard of the Ramayana? Yeah, I've heard of Rama.

No, I haven't. It's fascinating actually how many cultures have this monkey god or monkey king, even in Chinese cultures. But in Indian culture, he's like the god of strength and energy. And this like devoted servant to Rama. Have you heard of the Ramayana? Yeah, I've heard of Rama.

Yeah. They want to completely take it over. Oh my God.

Yeah. They want to completely take it over. Oh my God.

I've been a long time follower of Jack's, but believe it or not, my dad... Oh, no way. My dad actually emailed Jack saying, hey, my son has built a blue light free computer. And then, you know, the rest is history. Wow. How long ago was that? Early 2023. Oh, wow. That's cool. Yeah, it's been a whirlwind. But I started working on this mid-2018.

I've been a long time follower of Jack's, but believe it or not, my dad... Oh, no way. My dad actually emailed Jack saying, hey, my son has built a blue light free computer. And then, you know, the rest is history. Wow. How long ago was that? Early 2023. Oh, wow. That's cool. Yeah, it's been a whirlwind. But I started working on this mid-2018.

And the basic idea I started with is, okay, let's reimagine computing from a blank sheet. And how do we make it wiser and healthier? And okay, so how do you make an operating system that isn't addicting and distracting and just trying to steal all your attention? And so there's this whole side of the software. And then at the hardware, how do we kind of

And the basic idea I started with is, okay, let's reimagine computing from a blank sheet. And how do we make it wiser and healthier? And okay, so how do you make an operating system that isn't addicting and distracting and just trying to steal all your attention? And so there's this whole side of the software. And then at the hardware, how do we kind of

change its ergonomics how do we change the way it emits radiation but the biggest one was how do we change your relationship to its light how do we make it get rid of its junk light it's blue light and flicker make it possible so you can be outside so you can get natural light which is the best form of light there is um

change its ergonomics how do we change the way it emits radiation but the biggest one was how do we change your relationship to its light how do we make it get rid of its junk light it's blue light and flicker make it possible so you can be outside so you can get natural light which is the best form of light there is um

And so, uh, I just read widely and was really into astrophysics and just curious about like, what is the universe and what, what's, what goes beyond the basics. So, um, I, as a kid, really looked up, because my dad read a lot to me about Bill Gates and all these technologists, and I thought they were incredible. They're able to create things that determine the society.

And so, uh, I just read widely and was really into astrophysics and just curious about like, what is the universe and what, what's, what goes beyond the basics. So, um, I, as a kid, really looked up, because my dad read a lot to me about Bill Gates and all these technologists, and I thought they were incredible. They're able to create things that determine the society.

And then over time, how can we have a bit of healing light with photobiomodulation, which is some of these longer infrared frequencies? We don't have that in this version, but that's something that we're heading towards. And so the journey here was basically creating a computer screen that doesn't produce light yet. You can see it. Right.

And then over time, how can we have a bit of healing light with photobiomodulation, which is some of these longer infrared frequencies? We don't have that in this version, but that's something that we're heading towards. And so the journey here was basically creating a computer screen that doesn't produce light yet. You can see it. Right.

but the problem is they have blue light, they flicker. Yeah. Um, and you can't use them outside in the sun. Right. And my, my whole thing here is that deeply actually affects your sleep, your metabolism, your physiology. We, we, we could get into that, but yeah, with Jack and Alexis, and there's this small niche of computers, um, like the Kindle and so on.

but the problem is they have blue light, they flicker. Yeah. Um, and you can't use them outside in the sun. Right. And my, my whole thing here is that deeply actually affects your sleep, your metabolism, your physiology. We, we, we could get into that, but yeah, with Jack and Alexis, and there's this small niche of computers, um, like the Kindle and so on.

But the problem is they're so incredibly slow, you can't do much on it. You can read Harry Potter. The actual screen technology of the Kindle, it's called e-ink or e-paper, literally only can refresh at one or two FPS. And so you can take notes, you can read Harry Potter and change the page, but you can't scroll, you can't type, you can't have video. It's super, super laggy.

But the problem is they're so incredibly slow, you can't do much on it. You can read Harry Potter. The actual screen technology of the Kindle, it's called e-ink or e-paper, literally only can refresh at one or two FPS. And so you can take notes, you can read Harry Potter and change the page, but you can't scroll, you can't type, you can't have video. It's super, super laggy.

And so the core thing that we invented is a way to make these paper-like reflective computer displays. You could never get that on a Kindle, what that thing is doing. No chance at all. And so basically what we did is we made it as fast as an iPad, but it is a screen you can use outside of this. So crazy, dude. And so-

And so the core thing that we invented is a way to make these paper-like reflective computer displays. You could never get that on a Kindle, what that thing is doing. No chance at all. And so basically what we did is we made it as fast as an iPad, but it is a screen you can use outside of this. So crazy, dude. And so-

The core insight here was normal computer screens are artificial. They try to be, they're like a flashlight. They shine light in your eyes to stand out. That's great for Netflix and video games and making really overstimulating colors. But that's not how it works in nature. Everything in nature is reflective. you know, it's like a piece of paper, whatever, you're looking outside.

The core insight here was normal computer screens are artificial. They try to be, they're like a flashlight. They shine light in your eyes to stand out. That's great for Netflix and video games and making really overstimulating colors. But that's not how it works in nature. Everything in nature is reflective. you know, it's like a piece of paper, whatever, you're looking outside.

And so the point here is to make something that's more natural, that's reflective. And that's why a normal screen, you can't see it in the sun because it's trying to compete with nature. It's trying to make its flashlight bright enough that you could see it, but there's no chance versus sunlight. And that's why you can't see anything. Your screen's covered in glare.

And so the point here is to make something that's more natural, that's reflective. And that's why a normal screen, you can't see it in the sun because it's trying to compete with nature. It's trying to make its flashlight bright enough that you could see it, but there's no chance versus sunlight. And that's why you can't see anything. Your screen's covered in glare.

But because we're a reflective display, we're in harmony with nature. So we're actually using the sunlight. So when you're outside, the sunlight is literally hitting this, reflecting off of that, and that's what you're able to see.

But because we're a reflective display, we're in harmony with nature. So we're actually using the sunlight. So when you're outside, the sunlight is literally hitting this, reflecting off of that, and that's what you're able to see.

And I think that's the big philosophical change is how do you make technology that's more natural and in harmony with our nature and nature rather than trying to be artificial and overstimulating.

And I think that's the big philosophical change is how do you make technology that's more natural and in harmony with our nature and nature rather than trying to be artificial and overstimulating.

Yeah, people just assume the way iPhones and iPads look today, like that's the only way computers can look. But if you go back to the Xerox PARC days, kind of what we were saying before in the early days, there was actually two viable paths to computing.

Yeah, people just assume the way iPhones and iPads look today, like that's the only way computers can look. But if you go back to the Xerox PARC days, kind of what we were saying before in the early days, there was actually two viable paths to computing.

One was this emissive-immersive displays, which you take it to its logical progression, and that's VR and AR from what we have now, which is maximally immersive, maximalist. And this other...

One was this emissive-immersive displays, which you take it to its logical progression, and that's VR and AR from what we have now, which is maximally immersive, maximalist. And this other...

Oh my God, this is wonderful. You're pushing the human race forward. There was a Steve Jobs quote at the time. He said, computers are bicycles for the mind. Have you heard it? I heard you say it on another podcast, but I haven't heard it before that.

Oh my God, this is wonderful. You're pushing the human race forward. There was a Steve Jobs quote at the time. He said, computers are bicycles for the mind. Have you heard it? I heard you say it on another podcast, but I haven't heard it before that.

trajectory to computing has really kind of no one's really known about it it's not really the big one it's kind of withered this is it was called at the time com computing the basic idea was computers that just feel like analog objects but happen to have computational powers right so if you think of like in harry potter uh tom riddle's diary or the newspaper or the marauder's map

trajectory to computing has really kind of no one's really known about it it's not really the big one it's kind of withered this is it was called at the time com computing the basic idea was computers that just feel like analog objects but happen to have computational powers right so if you think of like in harry potter uh tom riddle's diary or the newspaper or the marauder's map

They just look like analog objects, like paper or books. But if you think about it, they're computational. They're magic. They're magical. And the point of computing is simply to animate things. Anima is like the word soul. It's to simply give a soul to analog objects to animate them. And that works.

They just look like analog objects, like paper or books. But if you think about it, they're computational. They're magic. They're magical. And the point of computing is simply to animate things. Anima is like the word soul. It's to simply give a soul to analog objects to animate them. And that works.

trajectory of what reflective or paper-like displays are is a way to basically make matter movable that's what this is this is yes this is not a portal this is literally a piece of paper that is you know animating That whole trajectory is what we're trying to bring back in computing. I'm trying to make, you know, more mainstream.

trajectory of what reflective or paper-like displays are is a way to basically make matter movable that's what this is this is yes this is not a portal this is literally a piece of paper that is you know animating That whole trajectory is what we're trying to bring back in computing. I'm trying to make, you know, more mainstream.

And the way I got the way I came up with this is I found a really old Japanese technology that's been thrown away.

And the way I got the way I came up with this is I found a really old Japanese technology that's been thrown away.

because you know at the time they were like oh it's not colorful if you don't have color it doesn't matter it's it had all of these flaws that kind of made it not viable and um in the 30 years since there's been just some crazy professors in the netherlands and germany especially in japan that have just sat there and whacked away at problem after problem after problem um you know there's a paper that comes out in 1997 solving one of the core problems of this technology

because you know at the time they were like oh it's not colorful if you don't have color it doesn't matter it's it had all of these flaws that kind of made it not viable and um in the 30 years since there's been just some crazy professors in the netherlands and germany especially in japan that have just sat there and whacked away at problem after problem after problem um you know there's a paper that comes out in 1997 solving one of the core problems of this technology

Another comes out in 2002, 2008, blah, blah, blah. And basically, when I started working on this in mid-2018, I just got...

Another comes out in 2002, 2008, blah, blah, blah. And basically, when I started working on this in mid-2018, I just got...

very lucky that finally enough of these problems have been solved um that if you were to put together all of these different technologies kind of what i was able to come up with suddenly this old japanese withered technology could be viable again and that's ultimately what i was able to pull together and create here with live paper is resurrecting an old japanese technology kind of now finally making it good enough

very lucky that finally enough of these problems have been solved um that if you were to put together all of these different technologies kind of what i was able to come up with suddenly this old japanese withered technology could be viable again and that's ultimately what i was able to pull together and create here with live paper is resurrecting an old japanese technology kind of now finally making it good enough

And our whole premise here is now you can make phones, laptops, monitors. You can make all of computing now interactive and dynamic, but they no longer need to be portals. They no longer have to have blue light. They no longer need to flicker. They no longer need to be addicting and distracting. They can just be a tool that you can use, kind of to your example of the games and the surgeons.

And our whole premise here is now you can make phones, laptops, monitors. You can make all of computing now interactive and dynamic, but they no longer need to be portals. They no longer have to have blue light. They no longer need to flicker. They no longer need to be addicting and distracting. They can just be a tool that you can use, kind of to your example of the games and the surgeons.

It's so captured me, which was he was like, humans are incredible, but actually in so many ways we're median. And so he gives the example of locomotion. If you look at the energy efficiency of locomotion, humans compared to all other animals were kind of somewhere in the middle. At the top are ospreys and birds like that.

It's so captured me, which was he was like, humans are incredible, but actually in so many ways we're median. And so he gives the example of locomotion. If you look at the energy efficiency of locomotion, humans compared to all other animals were kind of somewhere in the middle. At the top are ospreys and birds like that.

You can use the parts of computing that are useful for you, but it's no longer going to have that compulsiveness, that draw in your life. Yes. And.

You can use the parts of computing that are useful for you, but it's no longer going to have that compulsiveness, that draw in your life. Yes. And.

I so wish there was way more and way better academic research about this. Like you'd be surprised by how little there is and how bad the quality of what exists is. But some of the things that are like pretty stark are, there's a phenomenon called screen apnea. So there's sleep apnea, which is when, you know, you go to sleep, you stop breathing and you swallow your tongue, right? Yeah.

I so wish there was way more and way better academic research about this. Like you'd be surprised by how little there is and how bad the quality of what exists is. But some of the things that are like pretty stark are, there's a phenomenon called screen apnea. So there's sleep apnea, which is when, you know, you go to sleep, you stop breathing and you swallow your tongue, right? Yeah.

You basically stop breathing. You're choking for a while. Yeah. The point being is it has, you know, that lack of oxygen has a deep, deep impact on the rest of your life. So there's this, there's this phenomena that they've labeled screen apnea, which is when you're using a normal emissive flickering display on your iPhone, your iPad, whatever, your breathing rate slows down.

You basically stop breathing. You're choking for a while. Yeah. The point being is it has, you know, that lack of oxygen has a deep, deep impact on the rest of your life. So there's this, there's this phenomena that they've labeled screen apnea, which is when you're using a normal emissive flickering display on your iPhone, your iPad, whatever, your breathing rate slows down.

your breathing volume your tidal volume gets shallow so we are all literally a little bit more in a sympathetic response because the way we're actually affected at a breathing physiological level when we use these displays wow dude that's freaky That's why we feel a little bit more stressed when we use these things.

your breathing volume your tidal volume gets shallow so we are all literally a little bit more in a sympathetic response because the way we're actually affected at a breathing physiological level when we use these displays wow dude that's freaky That's why we feel a little bit more stressed when we use these things.

We don't even notice that, that it's actually the way we're interacting with the light.

We don't even notice that, that it's actually the way we're interacting with the light.

I think people started to realize... how much more stress there is when you use computers and they were trying to figure out what's going on here. And oh yeah, they can measure your intranasal temperature from afar. And they can literally tell when you get a notification

I think people started to realize... how much more stress there is when you use computers and they were trying to figure out what's going on here. And oh yeah, they can measure your intranasal temperature from afar. And they can literally tell when you get a notification

When it goes bing, because there's actually a slight stress response and it shows up as a temperature change on the inside of your nose. And so.

When it goes bing, because there's actually a slight stress response and it shows up as a temperature change on the inside of your nose. And so.

It's, it's, it's the end state of this all. Yeah. My point of this Silicon Valley pandering culture is,

It's, it's, it's the end state of this all. Yeah. My point of this Silicon Valley pandering culture is,

what's more than letting people live in their fake fantasy or totally artificial worlds and completely just indulge and masturbate yourself to death that's the amusing ourselves to death that's what neil postman is saying it's our it's our pleasures we'll oppress ourselves to death in our own pleasures and the possibility here is to create more sovereign computing

what's more than letting people live in their fake fantasy or totally artificial worlds and completely just indulge and masturbate yourself to death that's the amusing ourselves to death that's what neil postman is saying it's our it's our pleasures we'll oppress ourselves to death in our own pleasures and the possibility here is to create more sovereign computing

that isn't going to be maximalist and immersive. It's not about computers. It's about having the least computer possible and having the rest of your life, your actual relationships, nature. And so that's what we're trying to create is we call it like solar punk computing or a third timeline. Solar punk, that's cool. Have you heard of solar punk or looked into it? It's worth a Google.

that isn't going to be maximalist and immersive. It's not about computers. It's about having the least computer possible and having the rest of your life, your actual relationships, nature. And so that's what we're trying to create is we call it like solar punk computing or a third timeline. Solar punk, that's cool. Have you heard of solar punk or looked into it? It's worth a Google.

But you put a human on a bike and they are by far the most efficient animal when it comes to locomotion. And his point is like, this is what computers are. A human is not bad, pretty good, but you put them on a bicycle and suddenly we're the best. And so as a human, our minds, not bad, pretty good. It's what gets us here.

But you put a human on a bike and they are by far the most efficient animal when it comes to locomotion. And his point is like, this is what computers are. A human is not bad, pretty good, but you put them on a bicycle and suddenly we're the best. And so as a human, our minds, not bad, pretty good. It's what gets us here.

Is that real? Yeah. Solar punk? It's the best capture. For me, the way to describe the Silicon Valley technology is it's the gray alien timeline. The gray alien timeline. Yeah. Explain that. And then you can either have another timeline that's like the Unabomber or the collapse timeline where you completely reject technology and we get all super primitive or what I think

Is that real? Yeah. Solar punk? It's the best capture. For me, the way to describe the Silicon Valley technology is it's the gray alien timeline. The gray alien timeline. Yeah. Explain that. And then you can either have another timeline that's like the Unabomber or the collapse timeline where you completely reject technology and we get all super primitive or what I think

is the other way is the third timeline, the solar punk timeline, where it's this combination of- Is this what we're supposed to be looking at, these pictures?

is the other way is the third timeline, the solar punk timeline, where it's this combination of- Is this what we're supposed to be looking at, these pictures?

Okay. The photos will give you an aesthetic, but the point here is- A technological jungle, a technological rainforest. What it looks like to actually humanely combine technology, nature, and magic, the mystical and the spiritual. Yeah. And the problem with the VR future, with the basic technology trajectory today is there is no respect for nature. There is no respect for the body.

Okay. The photos will give you an aesthetic, but the point here is- A technological jungle, a technological rainforest. What it looks like to actually humanely combine technology, nature, and magic, the mystical and the spiritual. Yeah. And the problem with the VR future, with the basic technology trajectory today is there is no respect for nature. There is no respect for the body.

There is no respect for the spiritual or the transcendent. And that's the gray alien timeline.

There is no respect for the spiritual or the transcendent. And that's the gray alien timeline.

Right. It's bottom up, it's grassroots. It's those of us who are educating ourselves through these podcasts, learning actually what leads to human health, learning actually how we work and looking for better, healthier, safer choices. And it's not gonna happen with the gray alien timeline, the big tech timeline, I don't think they're going to be able to move in this direction.

Right. It's bottom up, it's grassroots. It's those of us who are educating ourselves through these podcasts, learning actually what leads to human health, learning actually how we work and looking for better, healthier, safer choices. And it's not gonna happen with the gray alien timeline, the big tech timeline, I don't think they're going to be able to move in this direction.

But the point of a computer is what is all the unrealized potential we have that we haven't explored yet? And so that just captured me deeply that, oh, wow, this entire world of technology and computing is to help us be the best version of ourselves to fully realize our potential. And the journey along the way to get to this is seeing how much that promise has not been fulfilled.

But the point of a computer is what is all the unrealized potential we have that we haven't explored yet? And so that just captured me deeply that, oh, wow, this entire world of technology and computing is to help us be the best version of ourselves to fully realize our potential. And the journey along the way to get to this is seeing how much that promise has not been fulfilled.

They're just so set in their ways. The fact that the people running these companies- Yeah, they're going too fast. What they're doing for their kids is making these healthier, safer choices. But for the big corporations, the Titanic's that they're running, they're not even attempting it at all. Tells you how much they're not even in control of the machine or the trend there.

They're just so set in their ways. The fact that the people running these companies- Yeah, they're going too fast. What they're doing for their kids is making these healthier, safer choices. But for the big corporations, the Titanic's that they're running, they're not even attempting it at all. Tells you how much they're not even in control of the machine or the trend there.

There's a way you can kind of think of it like- maybe even humans are not in control. It's like the machines are in control and they're taking us down this path of where we are simply, you know, the sex organs of the machine, as Marcus McLuhan puts it. We're just trying to create this, you know, techno dystopia future from them.

There's a way you can kind of think of it like- maybe even humans are not in control. It's like the machines are in control and they're taking us down this path of where we are simply, you know, the sex organs of the machine, as Marcus McLuhan puts it. We're just trying to create this, you know, techno dystopia future from them.

And that's where the matrix and all of us being in VR all the time is. Is it actually, are we as humans actually in charge or are we being dragged by the machines into that timeline? And so who's into this? It's those of us who say, no, fuck that. We're not passively going to let ourselves be dragged into this timeline of absolute human disempowerment. And so it's got to be grassroots.

And that's where the matrix and all of us being in VR all the time is. Is it actually, are we as humans actually in charge or are we being dragged by the machines into that timeline? And so who's into this? It's those of us who say, no, fuck that. We're not passively going to let ourselves be dragged into this timeline of absolute human disempowerment. And so it's got to be grassroots.

I think you just got to create your own arc. You got to create a new ship. Yeah. And... It's, I think, uniquely possible to do that today. If we tried to do this before, we didn't, funny enough, we didn't have the technology to be able to communicate and aggregate and teach each other and educate.

I think you just got to create your own arc. You got to create a new ship. Yeah. And... It's, I think, uniquely possible to do that today. If we tried to do this before, we didn't, funny enough, we didn't have the technology to be able to communicate and aggregate and teach each other and educate.

And so in a weird way, these same pipes that are, you know, addicting us and manipulating that are also the same ways that we can actually self-empower. And so the point of the solar punk timeline, this third timeline is, yeah, how do we create How do we refactor this entire stack to actually be in alignment with human flourishing?

And so in a weird way, these same pipes that are, you know, addicting us and manipulating that are also the same ways that we can actually self-empower. And so the point of the solar punk timeline, this third timeline is, yeah, how do we create How do we refactor this entire stack to actually be in alignment with human flourishing?

Payments, identity, banking systems, currencies, accounting, computers, internet protocols, networks. How can we make all of that such that it's not stuck to this rent-seeking techno-capitalist kind of machine gray alien timeline? When I say gray alien timeline, you had Michael Masters on the show.

Payments, identity, banking systems, currencies, accounting, computers, internet protocols, networks. How can we make all of that such that it's not stuck to this rent-seeking techno-capitalist kind of machine gray alien timeline? When I say gray alien timeline, you had Michael Masters on the show.

Yeah. I love that theory, dude. That's my favorite theory. For me, that is actually what the current Silicon Valley tech trend is. It's the gray alien timeline. If you follow Marc Andreessen and Mark Zuckerberg and so on, you end up at gray aliens. That's my favorite. That's my feeling is that is the best way to describe what that current conventional timeline we're all being sucked into is.

Yeah. I love that theory, dude. That's my favorite theory. For me, that is actually what the current Silicon Valley tech trend is. It's the gray alien timeline. If you follow Marc Andreessen and Mark Zuckerberg and so on, you end up at gray aliens. That's my favorite. That's my feeling is that is the best way to describe what that current conventional timeline we're all being sucked into is.

Because it's a complete dissociation of the body, the soul of emotion. It's the complete overemphasis on the brain and the intellect.

Because it's a complete dissociation of the body, the soul of emotion. It's the complete overemphasis on the brain and the intellect.

And what I'm arguing is that doesn't need to be an inevitability. That's the key thing is what's there? There's just like a complete disregard for life, for the body, for the soul, for emotion, for feeling. Everything is being thrown away in that gray alien timeline for optimization, for efficiency, for progress, whatever that means. But you lose your soul.

And what I'm arguing is that doesn't need to be an inevitability. That's the key thing is what's there? There's just like a complete disregard for life, for the body, for the soul, for emotion, for feeling. Everything is being thrown away in that gray alien timeline for optimization, for efficiency, for progress, whatever that means. But you lose your soul.

You lose the actual parts of what it means to be human. And so what I'm actually arguing is- I see what you're saying now. The gray alien timeline doesn't need to be an inevitability.

You lose the actual parts of what it means to be human. And so what I'm actually arguing is- I see what you're saying now. The gray alien timeline doesn't need to be an inevitability.

we can create our own other timeline if enough of us come together where the body actually matters the soul matters feeling matters emotion matters and we can design our world our technologies and so on in a total different way that that to me is the core thing here is that doesn't need to be an inevitability right that we all end up as emaciated gray little beings right with these big bulbous eyes and giant heads the top but well they do talk telepathically which is pretty cool

we can create our own other timeline if enough of us come together where the body actually matters the soul matters feeling matters emotion matters and we can design our world our technologies and so on in a total different way that that to me is the core thing here is that doesn't need to be an inevitability right that we all end up as emaciated gray little beings right with these big bulbous eyes and giant heads the top but well they do talk telepathically which is pretty cool

Right. I mean, we talk about nukes and things like that as being one of the potential great filters. Every civilization that comes to be, do they blow themselves up? Right. I think the other great filter is computers and AI and machines. Are we able to actually use them and use them effectively as tools? Or do we become the servants and then the masters? Yeah.

Right. I mean, we talk about nukes and things like that as being one of the potential great filters. Every civilization that comes to be, do they blow themselves up? Right. I think the other great filter is computers and AI and machines. Are we able to actually use them and use them effectively as tools? Or do we become the servants and then the masters? Yeah.

You know, we either kill ourselves in the process or completely dehumanize ourselves.

You know, we either kill ourselves in the process or completely dehumanize ourselves.

I think it's the banality of evil. Do you know the Hannah Arendt quote? No, but I'm familiar with Hannah Arendt. It's basically, she was like, one of the most heartbreaking things about the world is the banality of evil. If the problems that we have around us, if evil was committed because there were simply just a lot of really, really, really evil people, the solution's a little simpler.

I think it's the banality of evil. Do you know the Hannah Arendt quote? No, but I'm familiar with Hannah Arendt. It's basically, she was like, one of the most heartbreaking things about the world is the banality of evil. If the problems that we have around us, if evil was committed because there were simply just a lot of really, really, really evil people, the solution's a little simpler.

Shoot them. Yes. Find the evil people and shoot them. She said what's actually terrifying, what's truly terrifying is when you see much of the world is good or well-meaning or at least neutral people. committing evil because it's the structure. It's the game. It's not necessarily the people. I think that's the big thing here is did anybody intend, did anybody design this?

Shoot them. Yes. Find the evil people and shoot them. She said what's actually terrifying, what's truly terrifying is when you see much of the world is good or well-meaning or at least neutral people. committing evil because it's the structure. It's the game. It's not necessarily the people. I think that's the big thing here is did anybody intend, did anybody design this?

Maybe, but also potentially what's scarier is nobody designed this and this is just where it ended up. And it's absolutely convenient. for all the people who are in power or want things to be the way it is or disempower us. And from future machines looking to make humans their slaves or disempower us, it's a damn good setup for that. Yeah, man, that makes a lot of sense.

Maybe, but also potentially what's scarier is nobody designed this and this is just where it ended up. And it's absolutely convenient. for all the people who are in power or want things to be the way it is or disempower us. And from future machines looking to make humans their slaves or disempower us, it's a damn good setup for that. Yeah, man, that makes a lot of sense.

Wow, man. That's why I think your point here of like, wait, who's into this? How is this going to be? It's just one person at a time looking up, looking out, saying, I'm not okay with this. I think we literally have to create this third timeline brick by brick. Otherwise, this existing timeline is dead. structurally evil regardless of how many people you shoot. Yeah.

Wow, man. That's why I think your point here of like, wait, who's into this? How is this going to be? It's just one person at a time looking up, looking out, saying, I'm not okay with this. I think we literally have to create this third timeline brick by brick. Otherwise, this existing timeline is dead. structurally evil regardless of how many people you shoot. Yeah.

And that's the part that makes it powerful is it's not even about people anymore. There's a machine running there. Yeah. That's fucking terrifying, bro. Have you heard of the concept of egregores? Yes, but I forgot what it is.

And that's the part that makes it powerful is it's not even about people anymore. There's a machine running there. Yeah. That's fucking terrifying, bro. Have you heard of the concept of egregores? Yes, but I forgot what it is.

It's the idea that, you know, we as humans are doing things and, you know, there's a concept like, oh, markets are like the invisible hand that you end up creating this like intelligence that's able to like, you know, figure out things better than we could on our own.

It's the idea that, you know, we as humans are doing things and, you know, there's a concept like, oh, markets are like the invisible hand that you end up creating this like intelligence that's able to like, you know, figure out things better than we could on our own.

You know, it tells, figures out what's like the ideal price for bread through enough buyers and sellers in a market, blah, blah, blah. The point of an egregore is what happens when the intelligence that comes out of our human behaviors and small individual choices is actually something that's not necessarily beneficial. What if it's actually like, it's like you're birthing like.

You know, it tells, figures out what's like the ideal price for bread through enough buyers and sellers in a market, blah, blah, blah. The point of an egregore is what happens when the intelligence that comes out of our human behaviors and small individual choices is actually something that's not necessarily beneficial. What if it's actually like, it's like you're birthing like.

an entity in the new sphere at the higher levels that starts to actually prey on us and use us for its own goals. And so there's really the concept of like Moloch comes from and so on that there are some like

an entity in the new sphere at the higher levels that starts to actually prey on us and use us for its own goals. And so there's really the concept of like Moloch comes from and so on that there are some like

So Hanuman's one of the core characters in that. And so one of his alternative names is Anjaneya. And so that's what I'm named after.

So Hanuman's one of the core characters in that. And so one of his alternative names is Anjaneya. And so that's what I'm named after.

big entities or egregores or so on that is using technology to get us to to kind of domesticate us to disempower us to make us into the you know the future the matrix future we're nothing but batteries and they're actually the ones in charge we're not even in charge anymore And it recruits capitalism and technology and whatever that machine is to kind of perpetuate.

big entities or egregores or so on that is using technology to get us to to kind of domesticate us to disempower us to make us into the you know the future the matrix future we're nothing but batteries and they're actually the ones in charge we're not even in charge anymore And it recruits capitalism and technology and whatever that machine is to kind of perpetuate.

And whether they're actually actual demons or they're more of these like the intelligent hand working in the worst possible way. Right, right.

And whether they're actually actual demons or they're more of these like the intelligent hand working in the worst possible way. Right, right.

Yes. So we can't just like, wait, we got to do something. And, um, the problem with technology is it's so hard to build computers. It's so hard to make technological things. It requires so much capital. Um, You have to kind of be part of the system or game to be able to get the resources. At that point, you're fully captured.

Yes. So we can't just like, wait, we got to do something. And, um, the problem with technology is it's so hard to build computers. It's so hard to make technological things. It requires so much capital. Um, You have to kind of be part of the system or game to be able to get the resources. At that point, you're fully captured.

And so one of the hardest parts here in kind of creating an arc or a third timeline or those of us trying to get outside of that, you know, gray alien inevitability is how do you actually get the resources? How do you find enough people? How do you find your own tribe to be able to actually start making some alternatives? And so-

And so one of the hardest parts here in kind of creating an arc or a third timeline or those of us trying to get outside of that, you know, gray alien inevitability is how do you actually get the resources? How do you find enough people? How do you find your own tribe to be able to actually start making some alternatives? And so-

So I started working on this mid-2018, and we didn't have the first proof of concept that I could prove. To do the display technology was... Near the end of 2021. So it took a while. So I've had it. And our first tablet came at the beginning of 2023. So I've had it for almost two years now.

So I started working on this mid-2018, and we didn't have the first proof of concept that I could prove. To do the display technology was... Near the end of 2021. So it took a while. So I've had it. And our first tablet came at the beginning of 2023. So I've had it for almost two years now.

Yeah, I'd say we're still a generation or two away from it being able to do everything. So I still have to use my iPhone and MacBook. But I try to do as much as possible on a daylight.

Yeah, I'd say we're still a generation or two away from it being able to do everything. So I still have to use my iPhone and MacBook. But I try to do as much as possible on a daylight.

It's a lot of parents, actually.

It's a lot of parents, actually.

I'd say the biggest communities are people first who, funny enough, they don't even care about any of this. They want performance. They're lawyers, they're hedge fund managers, they're researchers, whatever it is.

I'd say the biggest communities are people first who, funny enough, they don't even care about any of this. They want performance. They're lawyers, they're hedge fund managers, they're researchers, whatever it is.

And one of the advantages of making a computer screen that's more natural is if you're spending all day on a computer screen for your job, you're able to do it without your eyes hurting or getting headaches or screwing up your sleep. So there's a ton of people who basically just read and write a lot. who are buying this as a performance tool. Right.

And one of the advantages of making a computer screen that's more natural is if you're spending all day on a computer screen for your job, you're able to do it without your eyes hurting or getting headaches or screwing up your sleep. So there's a ton of people who basically just read and write a lot. who are buying this as a performance tool. Right.

It's like soccer cleats if you're a lawyer, you know, instead of using tennis shoes. But the other main groups are people who are conscious of health and blue light and circadian rhythms. And they see how much it impacts them and they want a healthier computer. And the third group is, and the one I think we could really have a ton of impact in society is parents. Right. Wanting a...

It's like soccer cleats if you're a lawyer, you know, instead of using tennis shoes. But the other main groups are people who are conscious of health and blue light and circadian rhythms. And they see how much it impacts them and they want a healthier computer. And the third group is, and the one I think we could really have a ton of impact in society is parents. Right. Wanting a...

a non-zombifying computer for their kid. I mean, if you've seen the videos of kids when you take away their iPads, it's insane.

a non-zombifying computer for their kid. I mean, if you've seen the videos of kids when you take away their iPads, it's insane.

So that's actually when you talk about how are people using this, that's one of my favorite validations that this approach of more natural technology evens the playing field is we've had people put really addicting games on this. Put TikTok, put Instagram, even put YouTube on this. Yeah. And they get bored.

So that's actually when you talk about how are people using this, that's one of my favorite validations that this approach of more natural technology evens the playing field is we've had people put really addicting games on this. Put TikTok, put Instagram, even put YouTube on this. Yeah. And they get bored.

When you put kids on a daylight with whatever was the most addicting thing elsewhere, they get bored of it. And there's just something so fascinating about evening the playing field such that you can engage in these things, but they're no longer as addicting or as compulsive. And that to me is what's magical. When's the last time you've gotten bored of YouTube?

When you put kids on a daylight with whatever was the most addicting thing elsewhere, they get bored of it. And there's just something so fascinating about evening the playing field such that you can engage in these things, but they're no longer as addicting or as compulsive. And that to me is what's magical. When's the last time you've gotten bored of YouTube?

Yeah. Let me, let me go out for a second. So people really get to get the picture of this. Yeah. I think the problem here is we have no idea what we're doing. Right. We're used to designing objects. This stuff is alive. This is a total new category. When we invented computing, we started letting the genie out of the bottle.

Yeah. Let me, let me go out for a second. So people really get to get the picture of this. Yeah. I think the problem here is we have no idea what we're doing. Right. We're used to designing objects. This stuff is alive. This is a total new category. When we invented computing, we started letting the genie out of the bottle.

When's the last time you've like, you never get bored. You just run out of time. You just run out of time.

When's the last time you've like, you never get bored. You just run out of time. You just run out of time.

And so when like, it's a fascinating feeling to using YouTube on this and getting bored.

And so when like, it's a fascinating feeling to using YouTube on this and getting bored.

And I think that is the best way to think about technology is I'll, tell you what one of my favorite things somebody told me is they got this for their kid and they said what makes what makes this so what makes this so compelling is to my son it is more interesting than picking his nose or bullying his sister but less interesting than the backyard

And I think that is the best way to think about technology is I'll, tell you what one of my favorite things somebody told me is they got this for their kid and they said what makes what makes this so what makes this so compelling is to my son it is more interesting than picking his nose or bullying his sister but less interesting than the backyard

And so at a certain point he gets bored and he goes and plays outside.

And so at a certain point he gets bored and he goes and plays outside.

And that's the point. Yes. It's like the least amount of computer we need. Do your homework, listen to an audio book, you know, play some games that help you learn math or whatever. Oh, you can connect headphones to this?

And that's the point. Yes. It's like the least amount of computer we need. Do your homework, listen to an audio book, you know, play some games that help you learn math or whatever. Oh, you can connect headphones to this?

Yeah, you can. That's fucking cool. So one of the hopes of this is to be able to carve out the parts of computing that are actually like beneficial. Right.

Yeah, you can. That's fucking cool. So one of the hopes of this is to be able to carve out the parts of computing that are actually like beneficial. Right.

I'd say that is the cardinal sin of conventional tech is it's just optimizing for productivity.

I'd say that is the cardinal sin of conventional tech is it's just optimizing for productivity.

Yeah. But my point is maybe, maybe I'm saying it in a bit of a semantic way is the productivity is what comes out once you make this happen. you remove all the crap. Oh, okay. I see. The computer is not optimizing for productivity. What it's optimizing for is minimalism, for constraint. Right. For doing the least. Yes. And then it turns out then humans, we just are more productive, right?

Yeah. But my point is maybe, maybe I'm saying it in a bit of a semantic way is the productivity is what comes out once you make this happen. you remove all the crap. Oh, okay. I see. The computer is not optimizing for productivity. What it's optimizing for is minimalism, for constraint. Right. For doing the least. Yes. And then it turns out then humans, we just are more productive, right?

I struggle to read a book. I go sit outside and away from my phone and everything. Suddenly I'm reading that book. You know, it's like the most productive place for me in the world is a, is a airplane with no wifi. Cause suddenly the thing I had in my hand, I've been procrastinating for six months is more interesting than picking my nose and I start to do it.

I struggle to read a book. I go sit outside and away from my phone and everything. Suddenly I'm reading that book. You know, it's like the most productive place for me in the world is a, is a airplane with no wifi. Cause suddenly the thing I had in my hand, I've been procrastinating for six months is more interesting than picking my nose and I start to do it.

And I think that's the point here is like, So many of us feel like we're low willpower, we're distracted, we're not able to be the best versions of ourselves. And I think actually all it takes is designing our environment, redesigning our computers, and suddenly you're able to read books, you're able to finish things, you're able to...

And I think that's the point here is like, So many of us feel like we're low willpower, we're distracted, we're not able to be the best versions of ourselves. And I think actually all it takes is designing our environment, redesigning our computers, and suddenly you're able to read books, you're able to finish things, you're able to...

you know, think, write, draw, make poetry, whatever it may be. I think all of those things are, can emerge once we're not always stuffing our face with information and being overstimulated. Right. And so that's the goal of creating computers that, you know, allow us to discover cool things a human does.

you know, think, write, draw, make poetry, whatever it may be. I think all of those things are, can emerge once we're not always stuffing our face with information and being overstimulated. Right. And so that's the goal of creating computers that, you know, allow us to discover cool things a human does.

There's a lot of carnivore people who are into daylight. Oh, is there? Yeah. It's the same principle, right? Like how do we rethink things from like an evolutionary perspective and what's natural?

There's a lot of carnivore people who are into daylight. Oh, is there? Yeah. It's the same principle, right? Like how do we rethink things from like an evolutionary perspective and what's natural?

It's like, okay, humans evolved our ocular system, our eyes are, you know.

It's like, okay, humans evolved our ocular system, our eyes are, you know.

I think that's what's powerful about this third timeline is the principles are to get back to what is most transcendent and real. And that's like the natural nature. There's a reason. This is tried and tested throughout billions of years and millions of years. There's an arrogance as a human to think we can figure it all on our own and do better.

I think that's what's powerful about this third timeline is the principles are to get back to what is most transcendent and real. And that's like the natural nature. There's a reason. This is tried and tested throughout billions of years and millions of years. There's an arrogance as a human to think we can figure it all on our own and do better.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Yeah. I mean, first, I spent my entire life savings to develop the technology to start because I wasn't even sure whether it's possible to invent this type of a healthier display. So first, I had to kind of go all in. And once I saw, okay, it works, I tried to put some money together. to bring this to production and into the world, completely rejected by all of venture capital.

Yeah. I mean, first, I spent my entire life savings to develop the technology to start because I wasn't even sure whether it's possible to invent this type of a healthier display. So first, I had to kind of go all in. And once I saw, okay, it works, I tried to put some money together. to bring this to production and into the world, completely rejected by all of venture capital.

I mean, everything you see with AI and so on is just making obvious what actually has been there for a while, which is this isn't the same as the objects we have previously. This is something that deeply shapes the people using it. This is something that deeply shapes us at all our layers of being, the way we think, our nervous system, our physiology.

I mean, everything you see with AI and so on is just making obvious what actually has been there for a while, which is this isn't the same as the objects we have previously. This is something that deeply shapes the people using it. This is something that deeply shapes us at all our layers of being, the way we think, our nervous system, our physiology.

And how did you get these meetings? You have to meet the right person who introduces you to the right person who introduces you to the right person. It's its own little network and so on. So I tried to get into it. You got to go to some parties.

And how did you get these meetings? You have to meet the right person who introduces you to the right person who introduces you to the right person. It's its own little network and so on. So I tried to get into it. You got to go to some parties.

Yeah. Over and over again, I just heard the thing which was, hey, which of the sins does this cater to? Because that's how we invest. Is this gluttony? Is this envy? We think the best consumer products are those who cater to sins.

Yeah. Over and over again, I just heard the thing which was, hey, which of the sins does this cater to? Because that's how we invest. Is this gluttony? Is this envy? We think the best consumer products are those who cater to sins.

know you're a boy scout if you think people want healthier more humane computers and so what you're trying to compete against apple and amazon and microsoft and all the big tech companies are you crazy right and so silicon valley which is supposed to be this idealistic place like i thought there would still be people who you know they're already making these choices for their kids i thought you know

know you're a boy scout if you think people want healthier more humane computers and so what you're trying to compete against apple and amazon and microsoft and all the big tech companies are you crazy right and so silicon valley which is supposed to be this idealistic place like i thought there would still be people who you know they're already making these choices for their kids i thought you know

They'd all say, you know, I know I do this for my kid, but I don't know if others are going to do it. It's going to be niche. Like, I don't know, man. And everybody was basically cynical. So we couldn't raise any money from Silicon Valley institutions. So all the money we pulled together to be able to fund this is just from individuals.

They'd all say, you know, I know I do this for my kid, but I don't know if others are going to do it. It's going to be niche. Like, I don't know, man. And everybody was basically cynical. So we couldn't raise any money from Silicon Valley institutions. So all the money we pulled together to be able to fund this is just from individuals.

from people who actually believe that this is what they want their kids to grow up with. They don't want their kids to grow up with VR. They don't want to grow up with more screens in their life that are sucking you.

from people who actually believe that this is what they want their kids to grow up with. They don't want their kids to grow up with VR. They don't want to grow up with more screens in their life that are sucking you.

Our first batch is 5,000 units.

Our first batch is 5,000 units.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, the people who are into this is like I said, it's like people who have to use a computer screen all day. So they buy it for performance. You know, they read all the time. But yeah, a lot of it is folks who are. You know, this is the computer they use now so they can you can be outside in the sun. Like, why not be in your happy place? Right. Exactly.

Yeah, the people who are into this is like I said, it's like people who have to use a computer screen all day. So they buy it for performance. You know, they read all the time. But yeah, a lot of it is folks who are. You know, this is the computer they use now so they can you can be outside in the sun. Like, why not be in your happy place? Right. Exactly.

At nighttime, you know, sometimes you still want to use a computer, but now you don't. This is completely blue light free. So it produces no light at all. It's a reflective screen, but we optionally at nighttime, we put tiny little holes into the reflective material such that you get a flicker-free, blue light-free, a light at nighttime. I could show what that's like.

At nighttime, you know, sometimes you still want to use a computer, but now you don't. This is completely blue light free. So it produces no light at all. It's a reflective screen, but we optionally at nighttime, we put tiny little holes into the reflective material such that you get a flicker-free, blue light-free, a light at nighttime. I could show what that's like.

And so people use it as their... Steve, you got that on there? Okay, there we go. Let me... Let me get something here. So yeah, you can see this is producing no light at all. This is like a piece of paper. And so then what we have- So this is the backlight that you can turn on. This is the light. So we built our own custom LED. So it's completely blue light free and it's flicker free.

And so people use it as their... Steve, you got that on there? Okay, there we go. Let me... Let me get something here. So yeah, you can see this is producing no light at all. This is like a piece of paper. And so then what we have- So this is the backlight that you can turn on. This is the light. So we built our own custom LED. So it's completely blue light free and it's flicker free.

We made the spectrum similar to a campfire. Wow. And so even when you put like your iPhone into red mode or you put it into the night mode, underlying it is still a blue LED. Yeah.

We made the spectrum similar to a campfire. Wow. And so even when you put like your iPhone into red mode or you put it into the night mode, underlying it is still a blue LED. Yeah.

It's just tinting over. So you still have a small percentage, 20% more of the blue light coming through. Here is actually at the hardware level. We're driving the LEDs differently. So it's direct current. So there's no flicker. So a normal iPhone or iPad LED is driven by something called PWM, which is what causes it to flicker. And so this is not flickering at all.

It's just tinting over. So you still have a small percentage, 20% more of the blue light coming through. Here is actually at the hardware level. We're driving the LEDs differently. So it's direct current. So there's no flicker. So a normal iPhone or iPad LED is driven by something called PWM, which is what causes it to flicker. And so this is not flickering at all.

And believe it or not, to make that just even one change was a big deal.

And believe it or not, to make that just even one change was a big deal.

That changes the spectrum, but you have... That changes the spectrum? What do you mean? So basically, if you're all the way over to the left, it's just using... Show us on that one here so people can see. Okay. So basically, when you're here, this is completely blue light free and just using our amber LEDs. Okay. If you go all the way here, this is what an iPad is.

That changes the spectrum, but you have... That changes the spectrum? What do you mean? So basically, if you're all the way over to the left, it's just using... Show us on that one here so people can see. Okay. So basically, when you're here, this is completely blue light free and just using our amber LEDs. Okay. If you go all the way here, this is what an iPad is.

And so I think the original sin here was we made these things and we're like, okay, people want more RAM. They want to do this. They want to be more productive. Let's just construct these tools. Let's pull it together for folks. And along the way, we realized, holy shit, this thing deeply shapes us, the human using it. And we never created computers with a human in mind. We didn't know anything.

And so I think the original sin here was we made these things and we're like, okay, people want more RAM. They want to do this. They want to be more productive. Let's just construct these tools. Let's pull it together for folks. And along the way, we realized, holy shit, this thing deeply shapes us, the human using it. And we never created computers with a human in mind. We didn't know anything.

So we actually have a second set of LEDs that are white and blue. And so if you want to, you could use it this way. But it's kind of almost to make... MKUltra mode.

So we actually have a second set of LEDs that are white and blue. And so if you want to, you could use it this way. But it's kind of almost to make... MKUltra mode.

It's almost to make the difference extremely stark to you. Wow. How big of a deal it is. That's crazy. So it's a two different set of LEDs that are underneath it. So why would you ever want to have that mode on? Just because some people are not as militant as us. So they kind of, you know, like if you go here, instead of looking bright orange and amber, it looks a little bit, you know.

It's almost to make the difference extremely stark to you. Wow. How big of a deal it is. That's crazy. So it's a two different set of LEDs that are underneath it. So why would you ever want to have that mode on? Just because some people are not as militant as us. So they kind of, you know, like if you go here, instead of looking bright orange and amber, it looks a little bit, you know.

I was a hyper energetic kid, monkey-like, so.

I was a hyper energetic kid, monkey-like, so.

I don't recommend using it. I use it completely just in the, you know, the pure amber. But some people, they don't mind 10% more blue light for something that they think looks nicer. Yeah. Yeah. The core idea here is you use it this way, no light being produced at all. It's like looking at a piece of paper, or you can use it like that, and it's completely blue light free.

I don't recommend using it. I use it completely just in the, you know, the pure amber. But some people, they don't mind 10% more blue light for something that they think looks nicer. Yeah. Yeah. The core idea here is you use it this way, no light being produced at all. It's like looking at a piece of paper, or you can use it like that, and it's completely blue light free.

I think that would be huge if we could get kids everywhere to move away from normal blue light, emissive screens and tablets to things like this that are healthy.

I think that would be huge if we could get kids everywhere to move away from normal blue light, emissive screens and tablets to things like this that are healthy.

Look at the rates of ADHD, autism, so on. There's lots of reasons, but it's fascinating to see it. No, dude, it's scary as fuck. It has the point. Computers, especially for kids, are literally rewiring the way we are. This is an experiment we've never run before. It is literally rewiring our memory, our rewards, our dopamine system.

Look at the rates of ADHD, autism, so on. There's lots of reasons, but it's fascinating to see it. No, dude, it's scary as fuck. It has the point. Computers, especially for kids, are literally rewiring the way we are. This is an experiment we've never run before. It is literally rewiring our memory, our rewards, our dopamine system.

a demo on like how the pdf reader works and like how much you can actually zoom in and draw on it so people can see how quick it is compared to like other readers or e-readers so so you can think of it as like basically a healthier ipad whatever you can do an ipad you can basically do on here so one simple way to use this is you know you can read read things on it so this is a pdf right here so this is a pdf that we have here um and

a demo on like how the pdf reader works and like how much you can actually zoom in and draw on it so people can see how quick it is compared to like other readers or e-readers so so you can think of it as like basically a healthier ipad whatever you can do an ipad you can basically do on here so one simple way to use this is you know you can read read things on it so this is a pdf right here so this is a pdf that we have here um and

This is a total passive stylus. There's no battery. There's no Bluetooth in this. It just works off of magnetic resonance. That zoom is ungodly, how clean and fast that is. So we built our own software to be able to do that. It's called a PDF renderer. Maybe it's hard to hear, but... Here, put the mic down towards it. Yeah, that's true. There you go.

This is a total passive stylus. There's no battery. There's no Bluetooth in this. It just works off of magnetic resonance. That zoom is ungodly, how clean and fast that is. So we built our own software to be able to do that. It's called a PDF renderer. Maybe it's hard to hear, but... Here, put the mic down towards it. Yeah, that's true. There you go.

We engineered the surface to have nanodots to best replicate my favorite Japanese paper called Campus Kyoko. So that's literally making a physical sound. And that's our whole point? Let's see if it's back. That's our whole point is computers don't need to feel like shit. They don't need to be these metallic, cold, inorganic, you know, emotionless things. They can have some kinesthetic.

We engineered the surface to have nanodots to best replicate my favorite Japanese paper called Campus Kyoko. So that's literally making a physical sound. And that's our whole point? Let's see if it's back. That's our whole point is computers don't need to feel like shit. They don't need to be these metallic, cold, inorganic, you know, emotionless things. They can have some kinesthetic.

They can have this appeal. So basically you can use it for reading things. You can take notes, you can write, um, You can do your email on this. You can put a keyboard, kind of like a Microsoft Surface or an iPad Pro. I like to take notes on this.

They can have this appeal. So basically you can use it for reading things. You can take notes, you can write, um, You can do your email on this. You can put a keyboard, kind of like a Microsoft Surface or an iPad Pro. I like to take notes on this.

We didn't know Jack about our physiology, about our nervous system, about the science of productivity and focus. And so what we're faced with now is this thing that's absolutely crucial to our life, but has never been designed with a human in mind. Has never been designed with the idea you'll use it 12 hours a day.

We didn't know Jack about our physiology, about our nervous system, about the science of productivity and focus. And so what we're faced with now is this thing that's absolutely crucial to our life, but has never been designed with a human in mind. Has never been designed with the idea you'll use it 12 hours a day.

Yeah, whatever. You can use this to listen to Audible, Spotify, podcasts, audiobooks. You can do basically anything on this because you get Android apps and web apps and things like that. And so we're going to build a version of the software that's got a more focused lockdown mode. but what's that mean? Just basically it helps curate apps that are better for you.

Yeah, whatever. You can use this to listen to Audible, Spotify, podcasts, audiobooks. You can do basically anything on this because you get Android apps and web apps and things like that. And so we're going to build a version of the software that's got a more focused lockdown mode. but what's that mean? Just basically it helps curate apps that are better for you.

Um, and tries to like create some friction for the things that are distracting and that, but basically this mode that it's in right now is the hardware, the display difference. So even as the playing field, actually it's fine to kind of have access to everything. You don't end up getting distracted or addicted on this. So, um, this is just, I'm in the browser. You're able to, you know,

Um, and tries to like create some friction for the things that are distracting and that, but basically this mode that it's in right now is the hardware, the display difference. So even as the playing field, actually it's fine to kind of have access to everything. You don't end up getting distracted or addicted on this. So, um, this is just, I'm in the browser. You're able to, you know,

to read the news, read newsletters. You could go on YouTube if you want to and listen to podcasts and lectures. You can actually watch YouTube videos.

to read the news, read newsletters. You could go on YouTube if you want to and listen to podcasts and lectures. You can actually watch YouTube videos.

And that's the thing, is the entire ad model starts to fall apart. Yeah. When it's not super stimulating and addicting and compulsive.

And that's the thing, is the entire ad model starts to fall apart. Yeah. When it's not super stimulating and addicting and compulsive.

That's not true because you listen to audio on here. Yeah, good content, good products, and so on. I think we'll always stand the test of time.

That's not true because you listen to audio on here. Yeah, good content, good products, and so on. I think we'll always stand the test of time.

It's the stuff that needs to pander to you because it's not actually good for you. It doesn't deliver on its promise. To your point, it has all these negative long-term effects.

It's the stuff that needs to pander to you because it's not actually good for you. It doesn't deliver on its promise. To your point, it has all these negative long-term effects.

Well, so the big vision at Daylight is basically if you made Apple a public benefit corporation, it's primarily alignment was what to help people. And it wasn't captured by public markets and shareholders and so on. How could it make technology healthier and more humane? And so our goal is to basically go through each of the different categories of computing and

Well, so the big vision at Daylight is basically if you made Apple a public benefit corporation, it's primarily alignment was what to help people. And it wasn't captured by public markets and shareholders and so on. How could it make technology healthier and more humane? And so our goal is to basically go through each of the different categories of computing and

Starting with the tablet, but then making a phone, making a laptop, making monitors, making screens that you can put on your walls, kind of like digital whiteboards or whatever. Go and redo computing to be healthier. With our screen technology, with software that is far less distracting.

Starting with the tablet, but then making a phone, making a laptop, making monitors, making screens that you can put on your walls, kind of like digital whiteboards or whatever. Go and redo computing to be healthier. With our screen technology, with software that is far less distracting.

Has never been designed with the idea that there'll be trillion dollar companies on the other side absolutely trying to steal all the attention they can from you. When you talk to the people who first did computers, they would have never guessed that computers were thought as calculators. They were thought of these tools that just nerds and geeks use.

Has never been designed with the idea that there'll be trillion dollar companies on the other side absolutely trying to steal all the attention they can from you. When you talk to the people who first did computers, they would have never guessed that computers were thought as calculators. They were thought of these tools that just nerds and geeks use.

Our vision is to kind of create a new ecosystem of tech, and there's a lot to be done in terms of also changing the primitives of an operating system. You're locked in in many ways because by default, Apple's going to put iCloud everything, Apple logins, and this and that.

Our vision is to kind of create a new ecosystem of tech, and there's a lot to be done in terms of also changing the primitives of an operating system. You're locked in in many ways because by default, Apple's going to put iCloud everything, Apple logins, and this and that.

Yeah. But if they want to charge $40 a month, are you going to give up all your photos that you've ever had?

Yeah. But if they want to charge $40 a month, are you going to give up all your photos that you've ever had?

Do you have it stored anywhere else?

Do you have it stored anywhere else?

And by the way, we live on a finite planet, but the public markets expect infinite growth. So at a certain point, how does Apple make more money? It's by... you know, turning up the screws even more and more. And so the possibility of a new operating system and a new computing ecosystem is we could have a total different set of primitives. So identity can be decentralized. It's...

And by the way, we live on a finite planet, but the public markets expect infinite growth. So at a certain point, how does Apple make more money? It's by... you know, turning up the screws even more and more. And so the possibility of a new operating system and a new computing ecosystem is we could have a total different set of primitives. So identity can be decentralized. It's...

It doesn't need to be provided by daylight. It's called a DID. So this could be Blue Sky. It could be Noster. There's a bunch of new technologies that are sovereign. They're not controlled by any corporation or any individual. They're completely decentralized, kind of like Bitcoin.

It doesn't need to be provided by daylight. It's called a DID. So this could be Blue Sky. It could be Noster. There's a bunch of new technologies that are sovereign. They're not controlled by any corporation or any individual. They're completely decentralized, kind of like Bitcoin.

Um, and so similar thing with payments is instead of having Visa and MasterCard and all of that only be the way to do it. What if you could also build in some of these new decentralized payment technologies like Bitcoin and so on. And so there's a way to have a new computing stack that is far more private, far more years, not covered in tracking and spying and all these, um,

Um, and so similar thing with payments is instead of having Visa and MasterCard and all of that only be the way to do it. What if you could also build in some of these new decentralized payment technologies like Bitcoin and so on. And so there's a way to have a new computing stack that is far more private, far more years, not covered in tracking and spying and all these, um,

all these kind of tendrils but it's completely sovereign and private and decentralized and it's really hard to get people to adopt that on their existing system or computers but if you're going to start computing basically from scratch again you can now rebuild it with this new stack for example the storage could be decentralized so rather than your apple photos being in

all these kind of tendrils but it's completely sovereign and private and decentralized and it's really hard to get people to adopt that on their existing system or computers but if you're going to start computing basically from scratch again you can now rebuild it with this new stack for example the storage could be decentralized so rather than your apple photos being in

Apple's servers, let's say we were to have a storage app or so on, it could basically take your files and there's an algorithm, a distributed algorithm where it sends it across your network of friends, 150 people, and it stores a little bit with each person or a thousand people and so on. Like blockchain? It's complicated. Yeah.

Apple's servers, let's say we were to have a storage app or so on, it could basically take your files and there's an algorithm, a distributed algorithm where it sends it across your network of friends, 150 people, and it stores a little bit with each person or a thousand people and so on. Like blockchain? It's complicated. Yeah.

But the basic idea is we now have the technology to basically have community or people or peers store things and stuff like that. Oh, wow. And so therefore, even if daylight, you know, you don't like daylight, daylight can't control you. You can't start trying to charge you for that because we don't actually store it and therefore gate you from it. You're storing it amongst your own network.

But the basic idea is we now have the technology to basically have community or people or peers store things and stuff like that. Oh, wow. And so therefore, even if daylight, you know, you don't like daylight, daylight can't control you. You can't start trying to charge you for that because we don't actually store it and therefore gate you from it. You're storing it amongst your own network.

And so the possibility of peer-to-peer and actually community-driven computing starts to become available if we build it in as the defaults into this future operating systems. And Apple, so on, they're not going to do it. They make a lot of money spying on you. They make a lot of money keeping you in the walled garden.

And so the possibility of peer-to-peer and actually community-driven computing starts to become available if we build it in as the defaults into this future operating systems. And Apple, so on, they're not going to do it. They make a lot of money spying on you. They make a lot of money keeping you in the walled garden.

So the only way as a society is to create these kind of new alternatives and new computing platforms. So that's our vision is from the software, from the hardware, how do we reimagine it at all to be more socially beneficial?

So the only way as a society is to create these kind of new alternatives and new computing platforms. So that's our vision is from the software, from the hardware, how do we reimagine it at all to be more socially beneficial?

Oh, that's what we have coming next.

Oh, that's what we have coming next.

That's the next thing, yeah.

That's the next thing, yeah.

They would have never thought they'd be these dopamine slot machines that eight-year-olds would be spending all day on. And so finally, there's the possibility today that to sit down and say, wait a minute, we can't just keep going forever in this current trajectory because the soul of a current computer, the soul of a machine is rotten.

They would have never thought they'd be these dopamine slot machines that eight-year-olds would be spending all day on. And so finally, there's the possibility today that to sit down and say, wait a minute, we can't just keep going forever in this current trajectory because the soul of a current computer, the soul of a machine is rotten.

It's harder, too, and iMessage, at least in America, is such a strong lock-in. Yeah. And Apple, you know, doesn't make it possible.

It's harder, too, and iMessage, at least in America, is such a strong lock-in. Yeah. And Apple, you know, doesn't make it possible.

That's what we're trying to do here is like, there's hopefully some opportunities and breaking points and tipping points here that, you know, allow these other options to actually, you know, be able to compete with the existing system. So yeah, a phone that, you know, comes with this live paper screen that's blue light free, flicker free, distraction free, usable in the sun.

That's what we're trying to do here is like, there's hopefully some opportunities and breaking points and tipping points here that, you know, allow these other options to actually, you know, be able to compete with the existing system. So yeah, a phone that, you know, comes with this live paper screen that's blue light free, flicker free, distraction free, usable in the sun.

monochrome like this i think this is how we're able to kind of level the playing field right now is with this kind of non-stimulating computer screen i think if we can show and prove that we're able to do color in a way that's responsible, that's not addicting and overstimulating. Maybe eventually we'll be able to do it, but it's not a plan for the first couple of years. Right.

monochrome like this i think this is how we're able to kind of level the playing field right now is with this kind of non-stimulating computer screen i think if we can show and prove that we're able to do color in a way that's responsible, that's not addicting and overstimulating. Maybe eventually we'll be able to do it, but it's not a plan for the first couple of years. Right.

And the battery life. Yeah, the battery life is substantially better because you're not trying to compete with nature. You're not trying to compete with the light from the sun or from your environment. So this, for example, lasts 62 hours if you use it for reading continuously. That's amazing. 62 hours. So the idea of...

And the battery life. Yeah, the battery life is substantially better because you're not trying to compete with nature. You're not trying to compete with the light from the sun or from your environment. So this, for example, lasts 62 hours if you use it for reading continuously. That's amazing. 62 hours. So the idea of...

So we're not sure if it can replace somebody's iPhone and start, but maybe, you know, if you want to give your kid a phone, you finally have a way to do it and not be worried that it's going to be, you know, super addicting or take over their lives. Because games, TikTok, that type of stuff, it just like is not interesting on a daylight screen. Right. So that's what we're kind of starting with.

So we're not sure if it can replace somebody's iPhone and start, but maybe, you know, if you want to give your kid a phone, you finally have a way to do it and not be worried that it's going to be, you know, super addicting or take over their lives. Because games, TikTok, that type of stuff, it just like is not interesting on a daylight screen. Right. So that's what we're kind of starting with.

And for other people, maybe it's a nighttime phone or a weekend phone or something like that. But our idea is let's just create healthier computers in each of these categories and see what sticks.

And for other people, maybe it's a nighttime phone or a weekend phone or something like that. But our idea is let's just create healthier computers in each of these categories and see what sticks.

They're like banning phones in schools. Um, California did that this year. Did they really? Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They banned phones in schools. Look up the legislation. Yeah, it's across a ton of states now. Gavin Newsom? But it's all over the place. But in China, too, phones are banned from schools because of myopia, and they're worried about the incidence of it. Australia, France.

They're like banning phones in schools. Um, California did that this year. Did they really? Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They banned phones in schools. Look up the legislation. Yeah, it's across a ton of states now. Gavin Newsom? But it's all over the place. But in China, too, phones are banned from schools because of myopia, and they're worried about the incidence of it. Australia, France.

I think the world's waking up to actually how bad this is.

I think the world's waking up to actually how bad this is.

No, I didn't.

No, I didn't.

That's crazy.

That's crazy.

That's so interesting that TikTok is a free-for-all in America and China.

That's so interesting that TikTok is a free-for-all in America and China.

it's it's simply technologists just optimizing something for the sake of optimization right it's it has no soul it's lost that early bicycle for the mind that what computing was early in the days which was this making you the best versions of yourself instead it just got into this object rat race of dissociation of this productivity thing that at the cost of everything else tries to promise you productivity um and finally

it's it's simply technologists just optimizing something for the sake of optimization right it's it has no soul it's lost that early bicycle for the mind that what computing was early in the days which was this making you the best versions of yourself instead it just got into this object rat race of dissociation of this productivity thing that at the cost of everything else tries to promise you productivity um and finally

So I think that's why there's potentially going to be a lot of people who are going to be really pissed off that this exists because you start to be able to make technology that doesn't have back doors that is private that isn't sending all your information that doesn't allow you to get tracked doesn't allow you to get bombarded by ads the same way

So I think that's why there's potentially going to be a lot of people who are going to be really pissed off that this exists because you start to be able to make technology that doesn't have back doors that is private that isn't sending all your information that doesn't allow you to get tracked doesn't allow you to get bombarded by ads the same way

The goal here is let's create a computer where my opinion doesn't determine what happens to you. Let's create something that's sovereign, that's safe, that follows natural principles, and you get to choose what to do with it versus somebody else from afar controlling your attention and time and making choices on your behalf. So that to me is like society needs technology that's free. Yeah. Right.

The goal here is let's create a computer where my opinion doesn't determine what happens to you. Let's create something that's sovereign, that's safe, that follows natural principles, and you get to choose what to do with it versus somebody else from afar controlling your attention and time and making choices on your behalf. So that to me is like society needs technology that's free. Yeah. Right.

And that's, that's the real thing here is if we don't, if we don't go out of our way to do this, if we don't go out of our way to make it, we're, I think we're, I think we're pulled by the machine. How far off do you think you are from making the phone? Um, it depends how well this tablet does, but you can expect it from us in the next, uh, two years or so.

And that's, that's the real thing here is if we don't, if we don't go out of our way to do this, if we don't go out of our way to make it, we're, I think we're, I think we're pulled by the machine. How far off do you think you are from making the phone? Um, it depends how well this tablet does, but you can expect it from us in the next, uh, two years or so.

of her you still have people that have orders that haven't received them yet right so like so how many total orders have you gotten so yeah we we've gone like five thousand we thought every time oh so you haven't delivered all the five thousand so so far you've gotten five thousand we've delivered about sixteen hundred of them and we're gonna deliver another thousand this week and kind of until the end of the year so we we spent the summer getting production it's a hard thing to do and now we're we're delivering and

of her you still have people that have orders that haven't received them yet right so like so how many total orders have you gotten so yeah we we've gone like five thousand we thought every time oh so you haven't delivered all the five thousand so so far you've gotten five thousand we've delivered about sixteen hundred of them and we're gonna deliver another thousand this week and kind of until the end of the year so we we spent the summer getting production it's a hard thing to do and now we're we're delivering and

The hope here is, yeah, keep spreading the word and keep growing this and hopefully creating a new ecosystem.

The hope here is, yeah, keep spreading the word and keep growing this and hopefully creating a new ecosystem.

The display technology is made in Japan and then Taiwan is where they're assembled. Oh, yeah, we're in Taiwan. So maybe one of these days we'll be able to make it onshore.

The display technology is made in Japan and then Taiwan is where they're assembled. Oh, yeah, we're in Taiwan. So maybe one of these days we'll be able to make it onshore.

My whole journey to this was seeing the way that impacted my life. I'm super ADHD, and I just felt like an idiot all the time on a computer. I would intend to do something, and next thing you know, I'm scrolling on ESPN. I have 200 tabs open, if not more. I just keep beating myself up. Like, why are you not getting done what you need to get done? I'd stay up late. My eyes would hurt.

My whole journey to this was seeing the way that impacted my life. I'm super ADHD, and I just felt like an idiot all the time on a computer. I would intend to do something, and next thing you know, I'm scrolling on ESPN. I have 200 tabs open, if not more. I just keep beating myself up. Like, why are you not getting done what you need to get done? I'd stay up late. My eyes would hurt.

Oh yeah. Yeah. This is, this, this company, this project is a love letter to Japan and, It was finding old Japanese technology that was the origin for what this was. But the connections go deep. I mean, even the word anjinsan in Shogun, it means pilot. Right. Guess what pilot is in Greek? What? Kuber, or the origin word for cyber. Really? So if you think of the digital world, right?

Oh yeah. Yeah. This is, this, this company, this project is a love letter to Japan and, It was finding old Japanese technology that was the origin for what this was. But the connections go deep. I mean, even the word anjinsan in Shogun, it means pilot. Right. Guess what pilot is in Greek? What? Kuber, or the origin word for cyber. Really? So if you think of the digital world, right?

I don't think people... I think the more and more we become aware of the way computers are affecting us at all levels of health, physical health, mental health, addiction, distraction, the more we're going to have a chance to be free. And so... Thanks for having me on and hopefully we can escape the inevitability of the Crayalian Matrix VR timeline and create a more solarpunk free future.

I don't think people... I think the more and more we become aware of the way computers are affecting us at all levels of health, physical health, mental health, addiction, distraction, the more we're going to have a chance to be free. And so... Thanks for having me on and hopefully we can escape the inevitability of the Crayalian Matrix VR timeline and create a more solarpunk free future.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. And if anybody wants to email me, I'm ungin at daylightcomputer.com. And feel free to reach out. Always looking for interesting new folks to collaborate with.

Yeah. And if anybody wants to email me, I'm ungin at daylightcomputer.com. And feel free to reach out. Always looking for interesting new folks to collaborate with.

My sleep was screwed up. We know, I guess we're going to get into it, but all the ways that blue light can really affect you at your nervous system level, your physical health, your sleep, your mental health. And I was like, wait, this thing is my, it's my main relationship to the world. This is the thing I use for the most amount of hours per day. And it makes me feel like crap.

My sleep was screwed up. We know, I guess we're going to get into it, but all the ways that blue light can really affect you at your nervous system level, your physical health, your sleep, your mental health. And I was like, wait, this thing is my, it's my main relationship to the world. This is the thing I use for the most amount of hours per day. And it makes me feel like crap.

And it doesn't help me be the best version of myself. I kind of feel like the worst version of myself. And so, at a certain point, I... I was struggling so much. I was deeply depressed. I kind of lived a life where I was just living in my parents' basement and there was no sun, just surrounded by screens and blue light all day.

And it doesn't help me be the best version of myself. I kind of feel like the worst version of myself. And so, at a certain point, I... I was struggling so much. I was deeply depressed. I kind of lived a life where I was just living in my parents' basement and there was no sun, just surrounded by screens and blue light all day.

And it just got to the point where I just said, I can't do this anymore. Previous to that, I was in Silicon Valley. I came there. hoping, you know, this spirit of computing that we could help people's lives. And holy crap, what's the actual reality when you get there is far different than, you know, the picture sold to you. And so just it all kind of came crashing down.

And it just got to the point where I just said, I can't do this anymore. Previous to that, I was in Silicon Valley. I came there. hoping, you know, this spirit of computing that we could help people's lives. And holy crap, what's the actual reality when you get there is far different than, you know, the picture sold to you. And so just it all kind of came crashing down.

And I just said, okay, let's declare bankruptcy on computing. If we were to start again, and this time start with the human in mind, what could it look like? And everything else that I then pursued was just really exploring the possibility of redoing computing. And for me, if there's anything I've learned is the basis for so much health is light. The basis for everything else is light.

And I just said, okay, let's declare bankruptcy on computing. If we were to start again, and this time start with the human in mind, what could it look like? And everything else that I then pursued was just really exploring the possibility of redoing computing. And for me, if there's anything I've learned is the basis for so much health is light. The basis for everything else is light.

And so if you want to reimagine computing to now be healthier, to now be holistic, to now be wholesome, you got to start with light. And that's where I wanted to make something where how can you make a computer that respects light circadian rhythms? How does it actually not produce junk light? How does it not produce blue light? How can it be used outside in the sun?

And so if you want to reimagine computing to now be healthier, to now be holistic, to now be wholesome, you got to start with light. And that's where I wanted to make something where how can you make a computer that respects light circadian rhythms? How does it actually not produce junk light? How does it not produce blue light? How can it be used outside in the sun?

How can it be used in the environments that are best for us? And that's kind of how I got into the rabbit hole of redesigning computer and everything else that came.

How can it be used in the environments that are best for us? And that's kind of how I got into the rabbit hole of redesigning computer and everything else that came.

Well, that was what was so disillusioning about the process. Like growing up in Canada, idealizing Silicon Valley, the guy who started Atari, Nolan Bushnell, Alan Kay, Ted Nelson, these like – Guys who were the first to kind of say, hey, the point of this technology is to make us the best version of ourselves. They had the big views.

Well, that was what was so disillusioning about the process. Like growing up in Canada, idealizing Silicon Valley, the guy who started Atari, Nolan Bushnell, Alan Kay, Ted Nelson, these like – Guys who were the first to kind of say, hey, the point of this technology is to make us the best version of ourselves. They had the big views.

This guy named Alan Kay, in many ways, a lot of what Steve Jobs did was what Alan Kay came up with. Not many people know him, but he was like the true, true visionary. Who is he? Yeah. He's kind of this early computing visionary. There's a place called Xerox PARC. And so Xerox PARC, like Xerox, the copywriter company, they thought computers were going to put copywriters in their business.

This guy named Alan Kay, in many ways, a lot of what Steve Jobs did was what Alan Kay came up with. Not many people know him, but he was like the true, true visionary. Who is he? Yeah. He's kind of this early computing visionary. There's a place called Xerox PARC. And so Xerox PARC, like Xerox, the copywriter company, they thought computers were going to put copywriters in their business.

So they created this research center near Stanford in the middle of Silicon Valley called Xerox PARC. And their idea was, let's dream up what the future of computing is. So instead of somebody else putting out a report,

So they created this research center near Stanford in the middle of Silicon Valley called Xerox PARC. And their idea was, let's dream up what the future of computing is. So instead of somebody else putting out a report,

us out of business at least we can we can do it the funny part of this story xerox never did anything right with what came came of it but they basically the modern computer with a graphical user interface before that it was just uh it was just like letters and numbers there was no images there was no desktop there was no mouse there was no keyboard and so xerox park what you see when you sit down at your macbook

us out of business at least we can we can do it the funny part of this story xerox never did anything right with what came came of it but they basically the modern computer with a graphical user interface before that it was just uh it was just like letters and numbers there was no images there was no desktop there was no mouse there was no keyboard and so xerox park what you see when you sit down at your macbook

Believe it or not, somebody actually had to come up with that paradigm. Before then, computers were the same as like typewriters.

Believe it or not, somebody actually had to come up with that paradigm. Before then, computers were the same as like typewriters.

It's the world of the cyber. It's so interesting that it has this little connection back to Japan here through anjinsan and Just little coincidences. That's funny, man.

It's the world of the cyber. It's so interesting that it has this little connection back to Japan here through anjinsan and Just little coincidences. That's funny, man.

You know, they were just symbols on a screen that you would type in and you do commands and you get it back to actually think of something that was visual and you could click on, you can drag stuff and it would actually look like a document. Like a touch screen? No, no, they didn't have touch back then. Just think of your Mac. Right. Oh, with the mouse, like clicking and dragging stuff?

You know, they were just symbols on a screen that you would type in and you do commands and you get it back to actually think of something that was visual and you could click on, you can drag stuff and it would actually look like a document. Like a touch screen? No, no, they didn't have touch back then. Just think of your Mac. Right. Oh, with the mouse, like clicking and dragging stuff?

They didn't have a mouse. If you go actually far enough back, everything was just keyboard. So the idea of literally having a mouse, the idea of having a cursor, of dragging and dropping files and moving it around, and actually you can be able to see that, that was literally all had to be invented and at the time not obvious.

And so folks like Doug Engelbart, there's an amazing demo you can look up. These are the people who inspired Alan Kay. He had basically predicted like in 50 years ago what computing was going to be. The possibility of networked communication that we could message each other.

The idea of the mouse, believe it or not, that was like people were skeptical that people would ever use a mouse or that was even a good idea. Essentially, at Xerox PARC, they came up with the future of computing, what would be a normal desktop and what's your MacBook today. Wow. And Apple and so on basically just got their ideas from Xerox PARC and implemented it. No way. Yeah.

they laugh i mean they think it's naive that's why it was so disillusioning for me i thought it was this place of idealism and i kind of believe the whole like hey they're trying to change the world for the better and you get there and it's not that at all it's sterile it's transactional yeah it's like pre-med and goldman sachs and mckinsey energy masquerading for you know wanting to invent things

It's now the high status thing to do is to be in startups or technology or Silicon Valley. And so there's something that just shifts deeply in culture when you go from kind of hippies and idealists and nerds and people who almost do this because they don't know what else they'll do. They're not employable elsewhere. They're not going to fit into normal culture. Now it's the exact opposite.

It's the people who are the optimizers, the performers. And so when you try to come back to these deeper ideals that technology deeply shapes us and therefore we have a moral responsibility to make it in a way that's actually wise, you're laughed at. You're laughed at the same way when you brought up healthy food back in the day. People are like, are you kidding me?

You think you're going to stop people from eating junk food? You're going to stop people from eating the thing that is like...

evolutionarily they're built for to be vulnerable to like give me a break right you're considered naive as hell and so that's the first thing is people it's they look down at you consider you to be super naive no humans want to be addicted yeah we want to be distracted we want to be controlled we want to be overstimulated how are you going to stop that

And that just absolutely just fucking pissed me off to no end. Because what the hell happened to the idea that, hey, we have a responsibility to try to make amazing things for people and improve their lives. When the hell did this become a pandering culture? When the hell did this become a culture of, we'll just do what's easiest for people? Yeah.

When did this become a culture of like, we'll have the most cynical viewpoints of what human nature is. And that's the big problem here is the way computers are being designed is they're not optimistic at all about human nature. They're not optimistic at all about our ability to self empower ourselves. They're completely cynical.

And so even if you think of a normal computer screen or blue light, they're like, yeah, whatever. People are never going to know about that. And I think the point of a podcast like yours and others is like, no, dude, people aren't dumb. We want things to change. We want the best things for ourselves and our families. And these guys are never going to do it because they just...

It's far more profitable. It's far easier to just be cynical and pander to people and sell them junk food. And I think that's the problem with computers today is they're junk food computers.

That's the big idea here is we're so numb and overstimulated and so bombarded, we have normalized the way we feel, the way computers make us feel, the way it impacts us. And until you actually go out of your way, you don't realize what the hell, how tired I am, how much brain fog I have. How much it screws up, you're sleeping.

I mean, I think this is why you feel so good when you go camping and you just get away from everything for a week. Totally. Suddenly you start sleeping well. Suddenly you get up with the sun. Suddenly everything.

It's almost crazy that we've ended up this way because if you were diabolical and you were to design a society, you would come up with something similar to this. Check up everybody's nervous system such that they can't really think or feel. They're just reacting to things. And give them something in front of them that can give them endless stimulation.

That's an endless slot machine of variable reward. and put their physiology in a state between the blue light, the fact that it is bright light and it's flickering, such that you're always craving stimulation. Boom. Boom. Brave new world right there. Have you read Brave New World or Neil Postman? No, I haven't. I almost want to read it out loud. It's so good at describing this.

I grew up in a small nickel mining town in the east side of Canada. The son of a crazy psychiatrist. Our house was covered in books. There was maybe 10 people in the town who were not Caucasian. And so from the beginning, I was just an alien, an outsider, and the son of a crazy psychiatrist.

Let's see if I can pull this up.

Okay. So this guy named Neil Postman wrote this book called musing ourselves to death.

I think it's forward to the book just describes what we're talking about. So incredibly. So I'm going to read it out. We were keeping our eye on 1984. When the year came and the prophecy didn't, thoughtful Americans sang softly in praise of themselves. The roots of liberal democracy had held. Wherever else the terror had happened, we at least had not been visited by Orwellian nightmares.

we had forgotten that alongside orwell's dark vision there was another slightly older slightly less less well-known equally chilling aldous huxley's brave new world contrary to common belief even amongst the educated huxley and orwell did not prophecy the same thing orwell warns that we will be overcome by an externally imposed oppression but in huxley's vision

No big brother is required to deprive people of their autonomy, maturity, and history. As he saw it, people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think. What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.

orwell feared those who would deprive us of information hoxley feared those who would give us so much that would be reduced to passivity and egoism orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us hoxley feared the truth would be drowned out in a sea of irrelevance orwell feared we would become a captive culture

Huxley feared we'd become a trivial culture, preoccupied with some equivalent of the feelies, the orgy-porgy, and the centrifugal bumble puppy. As Huxley remarked in Brave New World Revisited, the civil liberties and rationalists who were ever on the alert to prose tyranny failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions.

In 1984, Huxley added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they're controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we hate will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we love will ruin us. This book is about the possibility that Huxley and not Orwell was right.

It really is. Whether it be the perspective of government, whether it be the perspective of these multi-trillion dollar tech companies that hit their earnings and please Wall Street by ever having our attention. The setup we have right now with computers is we're passive. They control us. They dominate our lives. They stimulate us. They keep us away from actually thinking. Because guess what?

If you could actually think, you could start questioning the system. And so we have, in my opinion, an incredible societal setup to have... know freedom and not even know it because we're so busy indulging in information and stimulation and addiction and distraction. And so there's a,

So Austrian economics, we were early to organic foods, a lot of these different health trends, arcane rhythms, a long time ago. That's kind of the milieu I grew up in. Because he could see for his patients, how much the conventional practice was not helping, how much just the drug paradigm, the materialist scientific reductive paradigm just did not understand that we have psyches.

There's a way in which reforming computers is actually core to reforming freedom, is core to reforming our ability to think for ourselves. And what I got really interested in was the idea that the actual physical hardware of a computer plays a big role with the blue light, with the flickering, with the emissive light in keeping us enraptured and stuck.

And so, yeah, my big idea was if you were to change that, you were like, kind of what you're hinting towards, if you could change the display technology to not have that physiological enrapturing effect. Maybe we could start to change computers from being these portals and slot machines and...

these black holes of all of our attention and time into just another object or tool that you find useful and you put away.

Well, I think that's what's so heartbreaking about this is they're the most conscious about this. People don't know this fact. I think it should be absolutely well known. Steve Jobs didn't allow his own kids to have iPhones or iPads until they were 16. but he is happy as hell to sell it to your kids. How is that not like on the front page of everything?

That's for real? Yeah, you can look it up. Wow. How is that not on the front page of everything that this guy who invented it knew what its negative impact was on a developing brain? And he's happy to sell it to the rest of you. You look at Mark Zuckerberg, he doesn't allow his kids to have social media or phones. Right. He himself uses...

Uses an e-paper tablet, but he's trying to get you to put the screen to be your entire life.

2017.

Hanuman.

There's a whole deeper human that's just the factory medicine model is not working. I mean, so he was very anti-authoritarian. He was very... could see how much the conventional view did not work. And that was kind of bred into me. And that's what this is, is a lifetime of kind of questioning the, the Holy cows as, as Jack puts it.

Dude, I think that's the point here is like, it's not to be Luddites and throw this stuff away.

And say completely, no, we can't have technology. Right, right. This stuff is incredible.

It's how do we carve out the better for you parts of computing and remove all the ways in which it's predatory. Yes. That it's not been optimized for human health, for human psychology, for any of it. And early days computers, they were not like this. Like you sat down with a computer and you like...

could do your work and then you put it away it's the problem now is they're always on you all the time and these algorithms are so incredibly good at finding out exactly what you like and then just feeding it to you till ever and yeah there's a i love this quote which is back in the day gary kasparov you know the world's best chess player was playing deep blue this ai by ibm um

And the famous thing here is for the first time ever, a computer had beaten the world's best chess player. And that computer Deep Blue, that AI that beat Garry Kasparov back then, that was a million times less powerful than the AIs and computers we have today.

So you now today have a million times more powerful computer every minute playing a game against you, which is addict you and get you to spend as much time as possible. That's what they have on their internal dashboard, their OKRs, how much time, how much engagement we get from a customer. And you don't even know you're playing a game against this.

If Garry Kasparov lost back then, what chance do we have today? And I don't think people realize it because it just seems like, oh, I'm just reading something or watching something. They do not understand the system of control. And also, he was aware he was playing the game. He was aware he was playing the game. We're not. We have no...

And so that's, it's like when you start to realize actually how much this benefits the current status quo of society to have people this way, no wonder they don't want to change computers. And you can't come out and suddenly if you're Tim Cook and say, Hey, this is the iPad healthy edition, you know, no longer has blue light and no longer flickers.

Cause you're gonna be like, so every iPad before was not healthy. Like,

right you're not you're not going to come out and yeah that's not yeah right jeopardize your entire business and every everything you sell yeah i see what you're saying and so if more people just knew that so many of the people in silicon valley don't allow their kids to use phones and ipads and social media and unrestricted access they're all incredibly careful

We, we got, we got some early offers to, to buy ourselves out from some, one of the big guys, but really, yeah, but that's, and then what was the, like, what was the terms of it?

No, I haven't. It's fascinating actually how many cultures have this monkey god or monkey king, even in Chinese cultures. But in Indian culture, he's like the god of strength and energy. And this like devoted servant to Rama. Have you heard of the Ramayana? Yeah, I've heard of Rama.

Yeah. They want to completely take it over. Oh my God.

I've been a long time follower of Jack's, but believe it or not, my dad... Oh, no way. My dad actually emailed Jack saying, hey, my son has built a blue light free computer. And then, you know, the rest is history. Wow. How long ago was that? Early 2023. Oh, wow. That's cool. Yeah, it's been a whirlwind. But I started working on this mid-2018.

And the basic idea I started with is, okay, let's reimagine computing from a blank sheet. And how do we make it wiser and healthier? And okay, so how do you make an operating system that isn't addicting and distracting and just trying to steal all your attention? And so there's this whole side of the software. And then at the hardware, how do we kind of

change its ergonomics how do we change the way it emits radiation but the biggest one was how do we change your relationship to its light how do we make it get rid of its junk light it's blue light and flicker make it possible so you can be outside so you can get natural light which is the best form of light there is um

And so, uh, I just read widely and was really into astrophysics and just curious about like, what is the universe and what, what's, what goes beyond the basics. So, um, I, as a kid, really looked up, because my dad read a lot to me about Bill Gates and all these technologists, and I thought they were incredible. They're able to create things that determine the society.

And then over time, how can we have a bit of healing light with photobiomodulation, which is some of these longer infrared frequencies? We don't have that in this version, but that's something that we're heading towards. And so the journey here was basically creating a computer screen that doesn't produce light yet. You can see it. Right.

but the problem is they have blue light, they flicker. Yeah. Um, and you can't use them outside in the sun. Right. And my, my whole thing here is that deeply actually affects your sleep, your metabolism, your physiology. We, we, we could get into that, but yeah, with Jack and Alexis, and there's this small niche of computers, um, like the Kindle and so on.

But the problem is they're so incredibly slow, you can't do much on it. You can read Harry Potter. The actual screen technology of the Kindle, it's called e-ink or e-paper, literally only can refresh at one or two FPS. And so you can take notes, you can read Harry Potter and change the page, but you can't scroll, you can't type, you can't have video. It's super, super laggy.

And so the core thing that we invented is a way to make these paper-like reflective computer displays. You could never get that on a Kindle, what that thing is doing. No chance at all. And so basically what we did is we made it as fast as an iPad, but it is a screen you can use outside of this. So crazy, dude. And so-

The core insight here was normal computer screens are artificial. They try to be, they're like a flashlight. They shine light in your eyes to stand out. That's great for Netflix and video games and making really overstimulating colors. But that's not how it works in nature. Everything in nature is reflective. you know, it's like a piece of paper, whatever, you're looking outside.

And so the point here is to make something that's more natural, that's reflective. And that's why a normal screen, you can't see it in the sun because it's trying to compete with nature. It's trying to make its flashlight bright enough that you could see it, but there's no chance versus sunlight. And that's why you can't see anything. Your screen's covered in glare.

But because we're a reflective display, we're in harmony with nature. So we're actually using the sunlight. So when you're outside, the sunlight is literally hitting this, reflecting off of that, and that's what you're able to see.

And I think that's the big philosophical change is how do you make technology that's more natural and in harmony with our nature and nature rather than trying to be artificial and overstimulating.

Yeah, people just assume the way iPhones and iPads look today, like that's the only way computers can look. But if you go back to the Xerox PARC days, kind of what we were saying before in the early days, there was actually two viable paths to computing.

One was this emissive-immersive displays, which you take it to its logical progression, and that's VR and AR from what we have now, which is maximally immersive, maximalist. And this other...

Oh my God, this is wonderful. You're pushing the human race forward. There was a Steve Jobs quote at the time. He said, computers are bicycles for the mind. Have you heard it? I heard you say it on another podcast, but I haven't heard it before that.

trajectory to computing has really kind of no one's really known about it it's not really the big one it's kind of withered this is it was called at the time com computing the basic idea was computers that just feel like analog objects but happen to have computational powers right so if you think of like in harry potter uh tom riddle's diary or the newspaper or the marauder's map

They just look like analog objects, like paper or books. But if you think about it, they're computational. They're magic. They're magical. And the point of computing is simply to animate things. Anima is like the word soul. It's to simply give a soul to analog objects to animate them. And that works.

trajectory of what reflective or paper-like displays are is a way to basically make matter movable that's what this is this is yes this is not a portal this is literally a piece of paper that is you know animating That whole trajectory is what we're trying to bring back in computing. I'm trying to make, you know, more mainstream.

And the way I got the way I came up with this is I found a really old Japanese technology that's been thrown away.

because you know at the time they were like oh it's not colorful if you don't have color it doesn't matter it's it had all of these flaws that kind of made it not viable and um in the 30 years since there's been just some crazy professors in the netherlands and germany especially in japan that have just sat there and whacked away at problem after problem after problem um you know there's a paper that comes out in 1997 solving one of the core problems of this technology

Another comes out in 2002, 2008, blah, blah, blah. And basically, when I started working on this in mid-2018, I just got...

very lucky that finally enough of these problems have been solved um that if you were to put together all of these different technologies kind of what i was able to come up with suddenly this old japanese withered technology could be viable again and that's ultimately what i was able to pull together and create here with live paper is resurrecting an old japanese technology kind of now finally making it good enough

And our whole premise here is now you can make phones, laptops, monitors. You can make all of computing now interactive and dynamic, but they no longer need to be portals. They no longer have to have blue light. They no longer need to flicker. They no longer need to be addicting and distracting. They can just be a tool that you can use, kind of to your example of the games and the surgeons.

It's so captured me, which was he was like, humans are incredible, but actually in so many ways we're median. And so he gives the example of locomotion. If you look at the energy efficiency of locomotion, humans compared to all other animals were kind of somewhere in the middle. At the top are ospreys and birds like that.

You can use the parts of computing that are useful for you, but it's no longer going to have that compulsiveness, that draw in your life. Yes. And.

I so wish there was way more and way better academic research about this. Like you'd be surprised by how little there is and how bad the quality of what exists is. But some of the things that are like pretty stark are, there's a phenomenon called screen apnea. So there's sleep apnea, which is when, you know, you go to sleep, you stop breathing and you swallow your tongue, right? Yeah.

You basically stop breathing. You're choking for a while. Yeah. The point being is it has, you know, that lack of oxygen has a deep, deep impact on the rest of your life. So there's this, there's this phenomena that they've labeled screen apnea, which is when you're using a normal emissive flickering display on your iPhone, your iPad, whatever, your breathing rate slows down.

your breathing volume your tidal volume gets shallow so we are all literally a little bit more in a sympathetic response because the way we're actually affected at a breathing physiological level when we use these displays wow dude that's freaky That's why we feel a little bit more stressed when we use these things.

We don't even notice that, that it's actually the way we're interacting with the light.

I think people started to realize... how much more stress there is when you use computers and they were trying to figure out what's going on here. And oh yeah, they can measure your intranasal temperature from afar. And they can literally tell when you get a notification

When it goes bing, because there's actually a slight stress response and it shows up as a temperature change on the inside of your nose. And so.

It's, it's, it's the end state of this all. Yeah. My point of this Silicon Valley pandering culture is,

what's more than letting people live in their fake fantasy or totally artificial worlds and completely just indulge and masturbate yourself to death that's the amusing ourselves to death that's what neil postman is saying it's our it's our pleasures we'll oppress ourselves to death in our own pleasures and the possibility here is to create more sovereign computing

that isn't going to be maximalist and immersive. It's not about computers. It's about having the least computer possible and having the rest of your life, your actual relationships, nature. And so that's what we're trying to create is we call it like solar punk computing or a third timeline. Solar punk, that's cool. Have you heard of solar punk or looked into it? It's worth a Google.

But you put a human on a bike and they are by far the most efficient animal when it comes to locomotion. And his point is like, this is what computers are. A human is not bad, pretty good, but you put them on a bicycle and suddenly we're the best. And so as a human, our minds, not bad, pretty good. It's what gets us here.

Is that real? Yeah. Solar punk? It's the best capture. For me, the way to describe the Silicon Valley technology is it's the gray alien timeline. The gray alien timeline. Yeah. Explain that. And then you can either have another timeline that's like the Unabomber or the collapse timeline where you completely reject technology and we get all super primitive or what I think

is the other way is the third timeline, the solar punk timeline, where it's this combination of- Is this what we're supposed to be looking at, these pictures?

Okay. The photos will give you an aesthetic, but the point here is- A technological jungle, a technological rainforest. What it looks like to actually humanely combine technology, nature, and magic, the mystical and the spiritual. Yeah. And the problem with the VR future, with the basic technology trajectory today is there is no respect for nature. There is no respect for the body.

There is no respect for the spiritual or the transcendent. And that's the gray alien timeline.

Right. It's bottom up, it's grassroots. It's those of us who are educating ourselves through these podcasts, learning actually what leads to human health, learning actually how we work and looking for better, healthier, safer choices. And it's not gonna happen with the gray alien timeline, the big tech timeline, I don't think they're going to be able to move in this direction.

But the point of a computer is what is all the unrealized potential we have that we haven't explored yet? And so that just captured me deeply that, oh, wow, this entire world of technology and computing is to help us be the best version of ourselves to fully realize our potential. And the journey along the way to get to this is seeing how much that promise has not been fulfilled.

They're just so set in their ways. The fact that the people running these companies- Yeah, they're going too fast. What they're doing for their kids is making these healthier, safer choices. But for the big corporations, the Titanic's that they're running, they're not even attempting it at all. Tells you how much they're not even in control of the machine or the trend there.

There's a way you can kind of think of it like- maybe even humans are not in control. It's like the machines are in control and they're taking us down this path of where we are simply, you know, the sex organs of the machine, as Marcus McLuhan puts it. We're just trying to create this, you know, techno dystopia future from them.

And that's where the matrix and all of us being in VR all the time is. Is it actually, are we as humans actually in charge or are we being dragged by the machines into that timeline? And so who's into this? It's those of us who say, no, fuck that. We're not passively going to let ourselves be dragged into this timeline of absolute human disempowerment. And so it's got to be grassroots.

I think you just got to create your own arc. You got to create a new ship. Yeah. And... It's, I think, uniquely possible to do that today. If we tried to do this before, we didn't, funny enough, we didn't have the technology to be able to communicate and aggregate and teach each other and educate.

And so in a weird way, these same pipes that are, you know, addicting us and manipulating that are also the same ways that we can actually self-empower. And so the point of the solar punk timeline, this third timeline is, yeah, how do we create How do we refactor this entire stack to actually be in alignment with human flourishing?

Payments, identity, banking systems, currencies, accounting, computers, internet protocols, networks. How can we make all of that such that it's not stuck to this rent-seeking techno-capitalist kind of machine gray alien timeline? When I say gray alien timeline, you had Michael Masters on the show.

Yeah. I love that theory, dude. That's my favorite theory. For me, that is actually what the current Silicon Valley tech trend is. It's the gray alien timeline. If you follow Marc Andreessen and Mark Zuckerberg and so on, you end up at gray aliens. That's my favorite. That's my feeling is that is the best way to describe what that current conventional timeline we're all being sucked into is.

Because it's a complete dissociation of the body, the soul of emotion. It's the complete overemphasis on the brain and the intellect.

And what I'm arguing is that doesn't need to be an inevitability. That's the key thing is what's there? There's just like a complete disregard for life, for the body, for the soul, for emotion, for feeling. Everything is being thrown away in that gray alien timeline for optimization, for efficiency, for progress, whatever that means. But you lose your soul.

You lose the actual parts of what it means to be human. And so what I'm actually arguing is- I see what you're saying now. The gray alien timeline doesn't need to be an inevitability.

we can create our own other timeline if enough of us come together where the body actually matters the soul matters feeling matters emotion matters and we can design our world our technologies and so on in a total different way that that to me is the core thing here is that doesn't need to be an inevitability right that we all end up as emaciated gray little beings right with these big bulbous eyes and giant heads the top but well they do talk telepathically which is pretty cool

Right. I mean, we talk about nukes and things like that as being one of the potential great filters. Every civilization that comes to be, do they blow themselves up? Right. I think the other great filter is computers and AI and machines. Are we able to actually use them and use them effectively as tools? Or do we become the servants and then the masters? Yeah.

You know, we either kill ourselves in the process or completely dehumanize ourselves.

I think it's the banality of evil. Do you know the Hannah Arendt quote? No, but I'm familiar with Hannah Arendt. It's basically, she was like, one of the most heartbreaking things about the world is the banality of evil. If the problems that we have around us, if evil was committed because there were simply just a lot of really, really, really evil people, the solution's a little simpler.

Shoot them. Yes. Find the evil people and shoot them. She said what's actually terrifying, what's truly terrifying is when you see much of the world is good or well-meaning or at least neutral people. committing evil because it's the structure. It's the game. It's not necessarily the people. I think that's the big thing here is did anybody intend, did anybody design this?

Maybe, but also potentially what's scarier is nobody designed this and this is just where it ended up. And it's absolutely convenient. for all the people who are in power or want things to be the way it is or disempower us. And from future machines looking to make humans their slaves or disempower us, it's a damn good setup for that. Yeah, man, that makes a lot of sense.

Wow, man. That's why I think your point here of like, wait, who's into this? How is this going to be? It's just one person at a time looking up, looking out, saying, I'm not okay with this. I think we literally have to create this third timeline brick by brick. Otherwise, this existing timeline is dead. structurally evil regardless of how many people you shoot. Yeah.

And that's the part that makes it powerful is it's not even about people anymore. There's a machine running there. Yeah. That's fucking terrifying, bro. Have you heard of the concept of egregores? Yes, but I forgot what it is.

It's the idea that, you know, we as humans are doing things and, you know, there's a concept like, oh, markets are like the invisible hand that you end up creating this like intelligence that's able to like, you know, figure out things better than we could on our own.

You know, it tells, figures out what's like the ideal price for bread through enough buyers and sellers in a market, blah, blah, blah. The point of an egregore is what happens when the intelligence that comes out of our human behaviors and small individual choices is actually something that's not necessarily beneficial. What if it's actually like, it's like you're birthing like.

an entity in the new sphere at the higher levels that starts to actually prey on us and use us for its own goals. And so there's really the concept of like Moloch comes from and so on that there are some like

So Hanuman's one of the core characters in that. And so one of his alternative names is Anjaneya. And so that's what I'm named after.

big entities or egregores or so on that is using technology to get us to to kind of domesticate us to disempower us to make us into the you know the future the matrix future we're nothing but batteries and they're actually the ones in charge we're not even in charge anymore And it recruits capitalism and technology and whatever that machine is to kind of perpetuate.

And whether they're actually actual demons or they're more of these like the intelligent hand working in the worst possible way. Right, right.

Yes. So we can't just like, wait, we got to do something. And, um, the problem with technology is it's so hard to build computers. It's so hard to make technological things. It requires so much capital. Um, You have to kind of be part of the system or game to be able to get the resources. At that point, you're fully captured.

And so one of the hardest parts here in kind of creating an arc or a third timeline or those of us trying to get outside of that, you know, gray alien inevitability is how do you actually get the resources? How do you find enough people? How do you find your own tribe to be able to actually start making some alternatives? And so-

So I started working on this mid-2018, and we didn't have the first proof of concept that I could prove. To do the display technology was... Near the end of 2021. So it took a while. So I've had it. And our first tablet came at the beginning of 2023. So I've had it for almost two years now.

Yeah, I'd say we're still a generation or two away from it being able to do everything. So I still have to use my iPhone and MacBook. But I try to do as much as possible on a daylight.

It's a lot of parents, actually.

I'd say the biggest communities are people first who, funny enough, they don't even care about any of this. They want performance. They're lawyers, they're hedge fund managers, they're researchers, whatever it is.

And one of the advantages of making a computer screen that's more natural is if you're spending all day on a computer screen for your job, you're able to do it without your eyes hurting or getting headaches or screwing up your sleep. So there's a ton of people who basically just read and write a lot. who are buying this as a performance tool. Right.

It's like soccer cleats if you're a lawyer, you know, instead of using tennis shoes. But the other main groups are people who are conscious of health and blue light and circadian rhythms. And they see how much it impacts them and they want a healthier computer. And the third group is, and the one I think we could really have a ton of impact in society is parents. Right. Wanting a...

a non-zombifying computer for their kid. I mean, if you've seen the videos of kids when you take away their iPads, it's insane.

So that's actually when you talk about how are people using this, that's one of my favorite validations that this approach of more natural technology evens the playing field is we've had people put really addicting games on this. Put TikTok, put Instagram, even put YouTube on this. Yeah. And they get bored.

When you put kids on a daylight with whatever was the most addicting thing elsewhere, they get bored of it. And there's just something so fascinating about evening the playing field such that you can engage in these things, but they're no longer as addicting or as compulsive. And that to me is what's magical. When's the last time you've gotten bored of YouTube?

Yeah. Let me, let me go out for a second. So people really get to get the picture of this. Yeah. I think the problem here is we have no idea what we're doing. Right. We're used to designing objects. This stuff is alive. This is a total new category. When we invented computing, we started letting the genie out of the bottle.

When's the last time you've like, you never get bored. You just run out of time. You just run out of time.

And so when like, it's a fascinating feeling to using YouTube on this and getting bored.

And I think that is the best way to think about technology is I'll, tell you what one of my favorite things somebody told me is they got this for their kid and they said what makes what makes this so what makes this so compelling is to my son it is more interesting than picking his nose or bullying his sister but less interesting than the backyard

And so at a certain point he gets bored and he goes and plays outside.

And that's the point. Yes. It's like the least amount of computer we need. Do your homework, listen to an audio book, you know, play some games that help you learn math or whatever. Oh, you can connect headphones to this?

Yeah, you can. That's fucking cool. So one of the hopes of this is to be able to carve out the parts of computing that are actually like beneficial. Right.

I'd say that is the cardinal sin of conventional tech is it's just optimizing for productivity.

Yeah. But my point is maybe, maybe I'm saying it in a bit of a semantic way is the productivity is what comes out once you make this happen. you remove all the crap. Oh, okay. I see. The computer is not optimizing for productivity. What it's optimizing for is minimalism, for constraint. Right. For doing the least. Yes. And then it turns out then humans, we just are more productive, right?

I struggle to read a book. I go sit outside and away from my phone and everything. Suddenly I'm reading that book. You know, it's like the most productive place for me in the world is a, is a airplane with no wifi. Cause suddenly the thing I had in my hand, I've been procrastinating for six months is more interesting than picking my nose and I start to do it.

And I think that's the point here is like, So many of us feel like we're low willpower, we're distracted, we're not able to be the best versions of ourselves. And I think actually all it takes is designing our environment, redesigning our computers, and suddenly you're able to read books, you're able to finish things, you're able to...

you know, think, write, draw, make poetry, whatever it may be. I think all of those things are, can emerge once we're not always stuffing our face with information and being overstimulated. Right. And so that's the goal of creating computers that, you know, allow us to discover cool things a human does.

There's a lot of carnivore people who are into daylight. Oh, is there? Yeah. It's the same principle, right? Like how do we rethink things from like an evolutionary perspective and what's natural?

It's like, okay, humans evolved our ocular system, our eyes are, you know.

I think that's what's powerful about this third timeline is the principles are to get back to what is most transcendent and real. And that's like the natural nature. There's a reason. This is tried and tested throughout billions of years and millions of years. There's an arrogance as a human to think we can figure it all on our own and do better.

Thank you.

Yeah. I mean, first, I spent my entire life savings to develop the technology to start because I wasn't even sure whether it's possible to invent this type of a healthier display. So first, I had to kind of go all in. And once I saw, okay, it works, I tried to put some money together. to bring this to production and into the world, completely rejected by all of venture capital.

I mean, everything you see with AI and so on is just making obvious what actually has been there for a while, which is this isn't the same as the objects we have previously. This is something that deeply shapes the people using it. This is something that deeply shapes us at all our layers of being, the way we think, our nervous system, our physiology.

And how did you get these meetings? You have to meet the right person who introduces you to the right person who introduces you to the right person. It's its own little network and so on. So I tried to get into it. You got to go to some parties.

Yeah. Over and over again, I just heard the thing which was, hey, which of the sins does this cater to? Because that's how we invest. Is this gluttony? Is this envy? We think the best consumer products are those who cater to sins.

know you're a boy scout if you think people want healthier more humane computers and so what you're trying to compete against apple and amazon and microsoft and all the big tech companies are you crazy right and so silicon valley which is supposed to be this idealistic place like i thought there would still be people who you know they're already making these choices for their kids i thought you know

They'd all say, you know, I know I do this for my kid, but I don't know if others are going to do it. It's going to be niche. Like, I don't know, man. And everybody was basically cynical. So we couldn't raise any money from Silicon Valley institutions. So all the money we pulled together to be able to fund this is just from individuals.

from people who actually believe that this is what they want their kids to grow up with. They don't want their kids to grow up with VR. They don't want to grow up with more screens in their life that are sucking you.

Our first batch is 5,000 units.

Yeah.

Yeah, the people who are into this is like I said, it's like people who have to use a computer screen all day. So they buy it for performance. You know, they read all the time. But yeah, a lot of it is folks who are. You know, this is the computer they use now so they can you can be outside in the sun. Like, why not be in your happy place? Right. Exactly.

At nighttime, you know, sometimes you still want to use a computer, but now you don't. This is completely blue light free. So it produces no light at all. It's a reflective screen, but we optionally at nighttime, we put tiny little holes into the reflective material such that you get a flicker-free, blue light-free, a light at nighttime. I could show what that's like.

And so people use it as their... Steve, you got that on there? Okay, there we go. Let me... Let me get something here. So yeah, you can see this is producing no light at all. This is like a piece of paper. And so then what we have- So this is the backlight that you can turn on. This is the light. So we built our own custom LED. So it's completely blue light free and it's flicker free.

We made the spectrum similar to a campfire. Wow. And so even when you put like your iPhone into red mode or you put it into the night mode, underlying it is still a blue LED. Yeah.

It's just tinting over. So you still have a small percentage, 20% more of the blue light coming through. Here is actually at the hardware level. We're driving the LEDs differently. So it's direct current. So there's no flicker. So a normal iPhone or iPad LED is driven by something called PWM, which is what causes it to flicker. And so this is not flickering at all.

And believe it or not, to make that just even one change was a big deal.

That changes the spectrum, but you have... That changes the spectrum? What do you mean? So basically, if you're all the way over to the left, it's just using... Show us on that one here so people can see. Okay. So basically, when you're here, this is completely blue light free and just using our amber LEDs. Okay. If you go all the way here, this is what an iPad is.

And so I think the original sin here was we made these things and we're like, okay, people want more RAM. They want to do this. They want to be more productive. Let's just construct these tools. Let's pull it together for folks. And along the way, we realized, holy shit, this thing deeply shapes us, the human using it. And we never created computers with a human in mind. We didn't know anything.

So we actually have a second set of LEDs that are white and blue. And so if you want to, you could use it this way. But it's kind of almost to make... MKUltra mode.

It's almost to make the difference extremely stark to you. Wow. How big of a deal it is. That's crazy. So it's a two different set of LEDs that are underneath it. So why would you ever want to have that mode on? Just because some people are not as militant as us. So they kind of, you know, like if you go here, instead of looking bright orange and amber, it looks a little bit, you know.

I was a hyper energetic kid, monkey-like, so.

I don't recommend using it. I use it completely just in the, you know, the pure amber. But some people, they don't mind 10% more blue light for something that they think looks nicer. Yeah. Yeah. The core idea here is you use it this way, no light being produced at all. It's like looking at a piece of paper, or you can use it like that, and it's completely blue light free.

I think that would be huge if we could get kids everywhere to move away from normal blue light, emissive screens and tablets to things like this that are healthy.

Look at the rates of ADHD, autism, so on. There's lots of reasons, but it's fascinating to see it. No, dude, it's scary as fuck. It has the point. Computers, especially for kids, are literally rewiring the way we are. This is an experiment we've never run before. It is literally rewiring our memory, our rewards, our dopamine system.

a demo on like how the pdf reader works and like how much you can actually zoom in and draw on it so people can see how quick it is compared to like other readers or e-readers so so you can think of it as like basically a healthier ipad whatever you can do an ipad you can basically do on here so one simple way to use this is you know you can read read things on it so this is a pdf right here so this is a pdf that we have here um and

This is a total passive stylus. There's no battery. There's no Bluetooth in this. It just works off of magnetic resonance. That zoom is ungodly, how clean and fast that is. So we built our own software to be able to do that. It's called a PDF renderer. Maybe it's hard to hear, but... Here, put the mic down towards it. Yeah, that's true. There you go.

We engineered the surface to have nanodots to best replicate my favorite Japanese paper called Campus Kyoko. So that's literally making a physical sound. And that's our whole point? Let's see if it's back. That's our whole point is computers don't need to feel like shit. They don't need to be these metallic, cold, inorganic, you know, emotionless things. They can have some kinesthetic.

They can have this appeal. So basically you can use it for reading things. You can take notes, you can write, um, You can do your email on this. You can put a keyboard, kind of like a Microsoft Surface or an iPad Pro. I like to take notes on this.

We didn't know Jack about our physiology, about our nervous system, about the science of productivity and focus. And so what we're faced with now is this thing that's absolutely crucial to our life, but has never been designed with a human in mind. Has never been designed with the idea you'll use it 12 hours a day.

Yeah, whatever. You can use this to listen to Audible, Spotify, podcasts, audiobooks. You can do basically anything on this because you get Android apps and web apps and things like that. And so we're going to build a version of the software that's got a more focused lockdown mode. but what's that mean? Just basically it helps curate apps that are better for you.

Um, and tries to like create some friction for the things that are distracting and that, but basically this mode that it's in right now is the hardware, the display difference. So even as the playing field, actually it's fine to kind of have access to everything. You don't end up getting distracted or addicted on this. So, um, this is just, I'm in the browser. You're able to, you know,

to read the news, read newsletters. You could go on YouTube if you want to and listen to podcasts and lectures. You can actually watch YouTube videos.

And that's the thing, is the entire ad model starts to fall apart. Yeah. When it's not super stimulating and addicting and compulsive.

That's not true because you listen to audio on here. Yeah, good content, good products, and so on. I think we'll always stand the test of time.

It's the stuff that needs to pander to you because it's not actually good for you. It doesn't deliver on its promise. To your point, it has all these negative long-term effects.

Well, so the big vision at Daylight is basically if you made Apple a public benefit corporation, it's primarily alignment was what to help people. And it wasn't captured by public markets and shareholders and so on. How could it make technology healthier and more humane? And so our goal is to basically go through each of the different categories of computing and

Starting with the tablet, but then making a phone, making a laptop, making monitors, making screens that you can put on your walls, kind of like digital whiteboards or whatever. Go and redo computing to be healthier. With our screen technology, with software that is far less distracting.

Has never been designed with the idea that there'll be trillion dollar companies on the other side absolutely trying to steal all the attention they can from you. When you talk to the people who first did computers, they would have never guessed that computers were thought as calculators. They were thought of these tools that just nerds and geeks use.

Our vision is to kind of create a new ecosystem of tech, and there's a lot to be done in terms of also changing the primitives of an operating system. You're locked in in many ways because by default, Apple's going to put iCloud everything, Apple logins, and this and that.

Yeah. But if they want to charge $40 a month, are you going to give up all your photos that you've ever had?

Do you have it stored anywhere else?

And by the way, we live on a finite planet, but the public markets expect infinite growth. So at a certain point, how does Apple make more money? It's by... you know, turning up the screws even more and more. And so the possibility of a new operating system and a new computing ecosystem is we could have a total different set of primitives. So identity can be decentralized. It's...

It doesn't need to be provided by daylight. It's called a DID. So this could be Blue Sky. It could be Noster. There's a bunch of new technologies that are sovereign. They're not controlled by any corporation or any individual. They're completely decentralized, kind of like Bitcoin.

Um, and so similar thing with payments is instead of having Visa and MasterCard and all of that only be the way to do it. What if you could also build in some of these new decentralized payment technologies like Bitcoin and so on. And so there's a way to have a new computing stack that is far more private, far more years, not covered in tracking and spying and all these, um,

all these kind of tendrils but it's completely sovereign and private and decentralized and it's really hard to get people to adopt that on their existing system or computers but if you're going to start computing basically from scratch again you can now rebuild it with this new stack for example the storage could be decentralized so rather than your apple photos being in

Apple's servers, let's say we were to have a storage app or so on, it could basically take your files and there's an algorithm, a distributed algorithm where it sends it across your network of friends, 150 people, and it stores a little bit with each person or a thousand people and so on. Like blockchain? It's complicated. Yeah.

But the basic idea is we now have the technology to basically have community or people or peers store things and stuff like that. Oh, wow. And so therefore, even if daylight, you know, you don't like daylight, daylight can't control you. You can't start trying to charge you for that because we don't actually store it and therefore gate you from it. You're storing it amongst your own network.

And so the possibility of peer-to-peer and actually community-driven computing starts to become available if we build it in as the defaults into this future operating systems. And Apple, so on, they're not going to do it. They make a lot of money spying on you. They make a lot of money keeping you in the walled garden.

So the only way as a society is to create these kind of new alternatives and new computing platforms. So that's our vision is from the software, from the hardware, how do we reimagine it at all to be more socially beneficial?

Oh, that's what we have coming next.

That's the next thing, yeah.

They would have never thought they'd be these dopamine slot machines that eight-year-olds would be spending all day on. And so finally, there's the possibility today that to sit down and say, wait a minute, we can't just keep going forever in this current trajectory because the soul of a current computer, the soul of a machine is rotten.

It's harder, too, and iMessage, at least in America, is such a strong lock-in. Yeah. And Apple, you know, doesn't make it possible.

That's what we're trying to do here is like, there's hopefully some opportunities and breaking points and tipping points here that, you know, allow these other options to actually, you know, be able to compete with the existing system. So yeah, a phone that, you know, comes with this live paper screen that's blue light free, flicker free, distraction free, usable in the sun.

monochrome like this i think this is how we're able to kind of level the playing field right now is with this kind of non-stimulating computer screen i think if we can show and prove that we're able to do color in a way that's responsible, that's not addicting and overstimulating. Maybe eventually we'll be able to do it, but it's not a plan for the first couple of years. Right.

And the battery life. Yeah, the battery life is substantially better because you're not trying to compete with nature. You're not trying to compete with the light from the sun or from your environment. So this, for example, lasts 62 hours if you use it for reading continuously. That's amazing. 62 hours. So the idea of...

So we're not sure if it can replace somebody's iPhone and start, but maybe, you know, if you want to give your kid a phone, you finally have a way to do it and not be worried that it's going to be, you know, super addicting or take over their lives. Because games, TikTok, that type of stuff, it just like is not interesting on a daylight screen. Right. So that's what we're kind of starting with.

And for other people, maybe it's a nighttime phone or a weekend phone or something like that. But our idea is let's just create healthier computers in each of these categories and see what sticks.

They're like banning phones in schools. Um, California did that this year. Did they really? Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They banned phones in schools. Look up the legislation. Yeah, it's across a ton of states now. Gavin Newsom? But it's all over the place. But in China, too, phones are banned from schools because of myopia, and they're worried about the incidence of it. Australia, France.

I think the world's waking up to actually how bad this is.

No, I didn't.

That's crazy.

That's so interesting that TikTok is a free-for-all in America and China.

it's it's simply technologists just optimizing something for the sake of optimization right it's it has no soul it's lost that early bicycle for the mind that what computing was early in the days which was this making you the best versions of yourself instead it just got into this object rat race of dissociation of this productivity thing that at the cost of everything else tries to promise you productivity um and finally

So I think that's why there's potentially going to be a lot of people who are going to be really pissed off that this exists because you start to be able to make technology that doesn't have back doors that is private that isn't sending all your information that doesn't allow you to get tracked doesn't allow you to get bombarded by ads the same way