Andrew Weissmann
Appearances
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
Yeah, we're going to do all of that in 10 minutes or less. The fall of Western democracy.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
So of all the things that have gone on, all the actions of the FBI, the Eric Adams case, the resignation of the chief of the criminal division in the DCU's attorney's office, all of that, as well as the statements being made by Emil Bove, and all of Pam Bondi's sort of day one memos, at the bottom of the list is asking the... presidential appointed US attorneys to resign.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
So that is fairly standard. It's not standard the way it's done. I mean, it's usually not sort of as abrupt, and it's not talking about weaponization and politicization. The US attorneys typically do change over when there's a change in party control. So that's the least of it in my book.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
So the answer is yes, but we already have. We have bigger problems. Exactly. We have so many other things that are going on. I mean, those kinds of wonderful norms. Let's just start with President Obama. brought in the new U.S. attorneys.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
And what he told them is, I know that I have nominated you and the Senate confirms you, but you need to understand your allegiance is to the Constitution, not to me. That is, which of course is like any fourth grader would understand that that's the way it's supposed to work, except that in the world we're in, that needs to be retaught because that's the opposite of what
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
Donald Trump, in my view, wants. He wants it first to be, you are loyal to me.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
Sure, Mayor Adams is somebody who was charged during the Biden administration with five felonies. He is a Democrat. And so any sort of claim about politicization is a little weird because it was a Biden administration that charged him. He was charged about nine months before the primaries here in New York City. This is what's unusual.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
The first way this blew up is that the acting US attorney in the Southern District of New York that has the case sent a letter to Pam Bondi saying, I have been ordered to dismiss the case. And I've been told to dismiss the case, not because there's a factual issue, not because we've got the law wrong,
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
but because this is going to, among other things, interfere with Eric Adams' ability to carry out the Trump administration immigration policies. And that is a quid pro quo using, from her point of view, using the, um, the criminal case to get somebody to do the political bidding of the president.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
Um, and to make sure that he's doing that, she says, uh, they want us to not dismiss the case for good. Uh, and that could be achieved also by the president pardoning Eric Adams, but they don't want that. They want to do is dismiss it without prejudice so that it's dangling over his head like a choke chain. Um, but so that he has to do their bidding and, um, In fact, he has done that.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
He then appeared on Fox News saying that he would allow ICE agents to come into New York City to effectuate arrests in locations. That's against the law, right? That's exactly right. So one point I made with Jen Psaki is this. The current mayor of the city of New York is under indictment federally currently with five felonies.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
He is out on bail and he is on TV saying ICE agents should come in and violate local law. So that's the state we're in. A motion has been made by the acting Deputy Attorney General to the judge overseeing the case to do just what he had directed the Southern District Prosecutor to do. The reason he had to do it is, I think we're up to eight. I might have my math wrong. I never do math in public.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
So it's either seven or eight prosecutors, career people, some with stellar sort of conservative credentials have resigned over this, as they should, because the idea that you would use the criminal law to do your political bidding is, imagine, Dan, that the next step is, I'm gonna ask a Democratic Congress person, I'm gonna say, you know what?
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
I'm willing to suspend your criminal case, but you're gonna vote with the Republicans during that time. And let's see how your voting record goes and if you toe the line. I mean, that is a quid pro quo also. Or imagine that Eric Adams said to Emile Bovee, I'm gonna give you a bag of cash to do this. I mean, all of those things are why you're seeing so many career people say,
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
This is not the role of the Justice Department. And just think about that awesome power that would give the president and the Department of Justice to actually bend people to their will on the pain of being criminally prosecuted and going to jail.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
So the law is extremely favorable to the government because prosecutorial discretion is something that is recognized as almost uniquely an executive branch function. And as you point out, Dan, if the court were to say you have to go forward,
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
the Southern District of New York, or now the Public Integrity Section, because the case was moved from the Southern District to the Public Integrity Section by the Deputy Attorney General. Where, by the way, he moved it. And what happened was prosecutors resigned in the Southern District. He moved it to the Public Integrity Section.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
The Public Integrity Section people resigned because people are like, I didn't sign up for this. So what can the judge do? He has a narrow ability to say, I'm denying the motion. And if necessary, he could appoint somebody to go forward.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
He could decide that he's going to have the case dismissed, but with prejudice, not without prejudice, so that there isn't this sort of Damocles or choke chain component to it. he could hold a factual hearing, that's what I would do, because you need to know, is there a quid pro quo and what's the nature of it? And make people have to testify under oath.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
One of the little tidbits that I wanna make sure people understand is Danielle Sassoon, the Southern District acting US attorney who resigned, noted in her letter that when they had a meeting with the acting deputy attorney general, the former Trump criminal defense lawyer a New York minute ago, that he ordered her people to stop taking notes and then confiscated them. And
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
The acting deputy attorney general has not denied that. He has admitted that he did it, but he says he did it to prevent leaks. That is not facially plausible to me that that's the reason, because you know how you can't prevent leaks by taking notes. People can leak without having notes of their conversation. All it does do is eliminate the written record so that you can lie about what happened.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
So the answer is yes, he can demand the notes. And if they have been destroyed, that is... One, it can be used by the judge as evidence that they would have been favorable to Danielle Sassoon's position that there was a quid pro quo. I mean, to me, you don't have to be a lawyer to understand that.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
If you confiscate the notes and shred them, you're entitled to draw inferences from the fact that you did that. If they were helpful for you, you don't destroy them. Right. Right. You put them in a safe somewhere. Exactly. So the other thing he could do is something that Emmett Sullivan did in the Michael Flynn case.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
So that is in Trump 1.0, where remarkably, this is like the only other time I've ever heard anything like this happening. And I was a prosecutor for 21 years. The only other time I can think of a situation like this is from Trump 1.0. And there, what the judge did is he appointed somebody to represent the public interest.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
He said, you know, I've got the government and the defense aligned here, but they may not be presenting everything because I have Danielle Sassoon's letter saying that's not what happened here. So Emmet Sullivan was in that situation and he appointed a former judge, John Gleeson, to represent and advocate with respect to the law and what else the judge should consider.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
It doesn't mean the judge had to agree with what that amicus said, but it was important to have another voice at the table when the whole idea is that there's a collusion between the government and the defense at issue.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
Absolutely. So this is like music to my ears because I wrote a short piece for just security. Can I just give a big plug? Because even though I'm on the board there, the people who do the day-to-day work are so great. Trust Security is affiliated with NYU Law School where I teach. It's just a great place for independent, smart analysis. It's also got a litigation tracker.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
So if you're trying to keep track of the I think we're up to 80 cases that have been filed since January 20th with respect to the actions of this administration. You can sort of see it there. But I did a short piece pointing out that Alvin Bragg, the Manhattan District Attorney, definitely has the legal authority to do this.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
And he has the state crimes that are entirely comparable to the federal crimes. And I sort of matched them up. And I think your listeners know that Alvin Bragg, has done this before, where he has stepped into the breach, obviously, most famously with respect to the Donald Trump case when the feds balked, but he did it in the Steve Bannon case as well.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
I agree with you that if it has not happened already, their position would be they would not want to do it. But there is reason to think that it may have happened already. We wouldn't know it because it would be under seal. But when Danielle Sassoon was still the acting U.S.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
attorney, she could have shared that it is legal to do that under, just to be nerdy, Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 6 that governs federal grand jury secrecy. There's a provision that permits the federal government to share that information with the state prosecutor. And so that may have happened. And it's worth remembering that although it's not on the same charges, Alvin Bragg has a
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
involving public corruption of a principal advisor to Mayor Adams. Oh, that's right. So he's already in the mix. Now, it's not the same scheme. I just want to make sure, as people know, it's not apples to apples. But all of that suggests to me, if I were in the Southern District of New York, I would have been thinking about making sure that the evidence that I've amassed
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
live somewhere independent of people who want to engage in bad behavior.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
So can I just say with the word weaponization, this is – That is a real thing. I don't want Donald Trump to be able to co-opt it to say, no, you're doing it, no, I'm doing it. Facts matter. And what we're seeing is the actual weaponization of the Department of Justice. And so... I'm big on, if you want to use a label, where are the facts to support it? And that isn't something that they have.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
In my view, what Ed Barton is doing, he's never, as far as I know, has never been a prosecutor. He's engaging in behavior that is completely thuggish. And You know, this is one of those things where at some point the worm will turn and he will not be in that position. If he engages in behavior that is criminal, there are sanctions for that.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
If he engages in behavior that violates professional norms, I know this seems small bore, but he can be sanctioned and actually disbarred. So one of the things that I think there's already a bar complaint against him is he is the acting U.S. attorney. He previously was doing defense work and was actually the counsel of record on January 6th cases for those defendants.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
There's nothing wrong with that. I mean, being a defense lawyer on controversial cases can be a very noble thing. He did both at the same time. He actually sought to dismiss cases where he was the prosecutor and the defense. That is not allowed in the legal profession.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
That is a tough and great question. So one, I think it's a very individualized decision about sort of what you do, but at some point there is no choice because you are being directed to do something that you have determined is either illegal, unethical, or just violates whatever principles you have and you can't stomach. For instance, I don't believe in the death penalty.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
If somebody directed me and said you have to prosecute a death penalty case, I would either say you have to fire me or I'm going to resign. I think that's sort of dancing on the head of a pin about which way you do it, the arguments either way. So at some point, if you're in that position where you're directed to do something, you actually have no choice. I mean, you can't go forward. You're
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
and look at yourself in the mirror. I think the harder situation is purportedly when Amiel Bove was trying to find somebody to do the evil deed of filing this motion, and he takes the Southern District of New York prosecutors off, and then he goes to public integrity of all places, the public integrity section that has public corruption cases,
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
And he basically, on Zoom, is like putting them in a meeting and it's basically cough up somebody or, I mean, what I understand is it's cough up somebody or you're gone. That's sort of the message. And that's where there's, I think, a healthy debate about what's the best way to deal with that. Do you cough somebody up? Do you all resign? I mean, I think there are pros and cons.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
What ultimately happened was was one person who was near retirement said, I'll sign it. And essentially he then saves what I'll call the good people because they don't then all get fired. And so that is a positive. And if you look at the actual filing that he signed, it's really interesting because the attorney who signed it did not make any factual representations that were false.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
Everything was fake. the acting deputy attorney general has determined the following. The acting deputy attorney general believes this. The acting deputy attorney general has directed X. So the person put their name on it, but was not going to represent anything as being true or his own beliefs. And one other point, when this actually went to court, you've noted that only Emile Bove came.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
And I think there's a reason for that, because if the other lawyer had shown up, and this is essentially what happened in the Roger Stone case when the same similar situation happened and career prosecutors withdrew from the case. If you have that person show up, that would have given Judge Ho the ability to say, tell me what happened. Like, what happened? Why are you here? Why did you sign it?
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
What's going on? And all of the facts about what happened and what Emil Bove had said to the group of public integrity people would have spilled out on the record. So in some ways, Emil Bove was smart to be the person to stand up, but... Dan, that's another thing that's just so unusual. Not only is it completely unheard of to see career people resign, last time I can think of it was Trump 1.0.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
And prior to that, of note, it's the Saturday Night Massacre. But the deputy attorney general does not go to court. Right.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
Well, I'm in very good company. There are lots and lots of people on that list. I still, after all this time, I'm still an institutionalist who believes that facts and law matter since I haven't done anything wrong. It doesn't mean they can't make my life and a lot of other people's lives, you know, hell and misery.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
But there are judges in this country and there are juries in this country and there are grand juries and there are trial juries. And that so far is not, those institutions have not been undermined. It's a very sad state that we're sort of where we are. But I tend to not try to not sort of personalize it and just think about sort of big picture where we are. And just going back to
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
what we were talking about when you asked what should career people do, I don't really have any other choice because I'm not going to stop speaking what's on my mind and saying what I think. And the day I stop doing that, it's like I can't look at myself in the mirror. And I don't think I deserve any credit whatsoever for that.
Pod Save America
Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?
I think there are a ton of people in this country who feel exactly the same way.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
The problem for Kash Patel is he tried to, every time he was confronted with his own prior words, he would do this kind of dance, or he would say it's out of context when the senators were actually reading his exact words. And it also misses the entire import. I mean, the import of everything he was doing for the last few years was to say, I am fully embracing, along with Donald Trump,
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
The politically oppressed January 6th defendants, they are political prisoners. And then he turns around in his confirmation hearing and says, no, but I didn't mean the violent ones. And also, I'm not really aware of everything everybody did. So when you're showing me bad people, well, maybe I wasn't including those. I mean, it's just a completely different story.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
than what he was saying and has been saying and is in his book in writing. I found the whole thing sort of appalling when you looked at what he was saying now versus what he was saying a minute and 32 seconds ago.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Like that was just the whole thing. I totally agree here. Let me give you an example of sort of very specific, which is he was asked a lot about having been in the grand jury and, in connection with the Mar-a-Lago classified documents case. Why was he put in the grand jury? Well, presumably it's because he was on a podcast on May 5th, 2022, where he said, I know that Donald Trump
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
issued an order to declassify documents that are at Mar-a-Lago. I was there when he ordered the declassification of those documents. So he's there to sort of provide some kind of defense. And so the government puts him in the grand jury.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
He asserts the Fifth Amendment, which, as Adam Schiff pointed out, must be the very first time that somebody who's being proposed to be the director of the FBI has taken the Fifth Amendment. Fifth Amendment means that you have a good faith belief that a truthful answer to the questions would incriminate you in a crime. He is then immunized and forced to testify.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And he's asked sort of over and over again about that and dodges and weaves and he gets the law wrong about whether he can speak. But ultimately, he says no. I have no idea what documents are at Mar-a-Lago. So I wasn't there. I don't know what documents are there in Mar-a-Lago.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
How do you square that with, I know that Donald Trump declassified the documents at Mar-a-Lago with a statement that I don't know what's at Mar-a-Lago? I mean, completely inconsistent. That's again, as a former prosecutor, that's exactly what you look for. You look to defend and you're like, I can't wait for this cross-examination.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
There's no way that you can say, I know he declassified documents at Mar-a-Lago when you simultaneously under oath say, I have no idea what's at Mar-a-Lago.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
How about Grassley saying, you know, we're looking forward to you restoring the reputation and integrity of the FBI, which is, you know, has its reputation right now is at historic lows. And thank God we have this white knight coming in to save it, which is.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
So Alice in Wonderland, when the reason it is in that shape in a large part is because Kash Patel for the last four years has been denigrating the FBI and making up a false story that they were the ones behind January 6th. And so you're sitting in a hearing where it's just as people in MSNBC say, it's Earth 2. It's just divorced from reality.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Well, one, there's already reporting that senior officials at the FBI are being told to either resign. If they don't resign, they will either be fired or they'll be demoted.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
beggar's belief. And also, did you see the Grassley said, you know, if you want to answer, because if not, we can just move on. I mean, what the hell is that? I mean, it's like, let me just step in and protect you from a hard question. I mean, it was just shocking. I mean, there either is going to be a true hearing or not. But I want to make sure people understand that
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
That does not happen at the Bureau. These are career people. They're protected by all sorts of civil service requirements. Obviously, if somebody is not doing a good job, then they can be demoted. But the idea that You just get rid of your senior leadership that have been there for years and years, have tons of experience.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
They're in those positions because of that longevity of knowing what they're doing. And the so-called seventh floor is typically filled with the best at the bureau. And you need them. For a whole host of reasons. You know, you think that there are mistakes that the FBI makes. Well, you know what? If those people on the seventh floor weren't there, there'd be a whole lot more.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And so this is really unheard of. Institutional knowledge. Exactly. And just judgment. Good judgment is so important, and a lot of that comes from the experience of having lived through lots of cases, also just how to be effective. I mean, people, I don't think, understand when this whole idea of anti-experience, that anybody can do the job. No, that's not true.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
The judgment and ability to be able to sift through what is noise and what is real is critical in all sorts of ways, but particularly in national security, where there's tons of noise. And the art, I remember Robert Mueller saying this, the art is knowing noise. What is the thing to focus on? What is the thing that causes the most concern? And that is what we count on to prevent bombs going off.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
I mean, there's not a single person at the hearing and Kash Patel's hearing who had the audacity, no Republican had the audacity to say, no, this man is the best person for the job. Of all of the people in the entire country, this is the guy. But you know what? That's supposed to be the standard.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Big picture and small picture. So obviously, big picture is you need a director and a bureau that's going to be governed by facts and law. So if you believe that the FBI is the one that fomented January 6th, that's just not true. And so not being governed by facts, that's how you do an investigation. You're ultimately going to need to go to court and prove things.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
So you need to know what the facts are and be able to establish it. It's all good and well to spout off things at a hearing, to write whatever you want in a book. That's not the way the FBI works and it's not where the courts work. at least so far.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
In terms of specifics, so this idea that we can just take everybody from headquarters and move them to the field, having been in both situations, been in the field and been at headquarters, I mean, obviously there's great work that happens in the field, but again, from a national security perspective and the intelligence community, it's That really has to be coordinated through headquarters.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Let me just give one quick example. Do you want the field offices, of which there are scores and scores of field offices, to be independently and separately interacting with our foreign counterparts? So we have an enormously tight relationship with what's called the five I's. So England, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. There's an enormous amount of sharing of intelligence.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
There's also sharing of intelligence with other countries. That has to be centrally coordinated, just so people aren't thinking that's to make other countries safe. No, that's to make our country safe. And that has to be coordinated at a national level. That's why you need people like that. Also, you really need to make sure people are taking consistent positions and know what they're doing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And a lot of the offices around the country have never done a terrorism case. Thank God. And when they get their first one, are they supposed to learn on the job? Or are you supposed to have people at headquarters helping them? The idea of decentralizing all of the FBI, which was Cash Fatale's sort of famous statement coming in, is another way of saying, I'm just going to eradicate it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
So it is in charge of... Any and all prosecutions of terrorists in the United States, even if the terrorism is happening overseas, but it affects, let's say, an American, like a bomb goes off and an American is killed, we have jurisdiction.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
If there is going to be a criminal case against that person, if they're going to be detained here under law enforcement authorities, the FBI has to be involved and takes the lead in that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
It is true that with respect to just intelligence operations, if you're trying to look for just what's happening in country X overseas, there are other agencies that have significant responsibilities, including the CIA and the NSA, the sort of alphabet soup of Washington, D.C.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
The first thing I just want to make sure people understand is when I first got to the FBI, I was the general counsel. One of the most palpable things about the FBI at that time was how apolitical that institution is. Unlike most agencies in Washington, there is one and only one political appointee, which is the director. That's really dissimilar to a whole range of other agencies.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
agencies and the reason for that is it's not supposed to be a political agency it's supposed to just be based on facts and law and that really was felt within the building that it's just like wherever the facts are we don't care you know what the political consequences are
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
So I think within the building, this development has got to be sending shockwaves, but not in a good way of people thinking, oh, change is good. I think there probably are people who have been politicized, which is really unfortunate, and who... are going to be sort of mega loyalists. But I think there are other people who are just going to be like, I don't need this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And there's another acronym that is a FBI acronym, which is the people who've put in their 20 years. I remember a friend of mine who was there and she said, you know, I'm KMA. And I'm like, I'm sorry, what is that? And she's like... kiss my ass. And I said, well, what does that mean? And she said, it means that I've done my 20 years.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And so I'm here for the mission, but any day I don't like it, I can retire with full benefits because I'm at that point. And I'm only here because I believe in the FBI and the mission. And I think for those people, the KMA people, they're going to be, I'm out the door.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
I think the way I think about that, which is maybe sort of a pipe dream at this point, is I'm an institutionalist. I still think facts and law matter. I hear you that those checks with respect to judges and juries doesn't come until... later, in most instances, unless you're Donald Trump. So I sort of count on that in that if there's nothing there, then a lot of this will be wasted time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
I mean, it's not a crime to be on cable news. Last time I checked, even though Kash Patel famously has said he's going after the media, whether it's criminally or civilly, we'll deal with that later. Interesting thing for the head of the FBI to say. I
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Of course, capitol is a huge concern, but I actually think one of the bigger concerns is watching these hearings and watching the complicity of various senators and congresspeople in the lies. It's just appalling. And that, to me, is a concern that when you're thinking about the checks and balances, you're like, oh, well, there's no check there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
they're perfectly happy to go along with things that they have to know are not true.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Right. And the thing I'm worried about, and I think it's because I've been on the inside in the intelligence community, is I keep on sort of saying this word is Katrina. Right. I mean, do you remember when that happened that there was rightful sort of outrage and pushback because the head of FEMA was not ready for the job? He was learning on the job.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And you cannot put in people who are the kind of nominees that we're seeing and think there isn't going to be a crisis. I mean, the Department of Defense, the FBI, the head of intelligence, HHS, and these are the people who are going to be handling a crisis involving our security, whether it's health security, whether it's
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
physical security, the idea that there isn't more outrage at this and a sense of like, can you please find some more competent people? And a real misunderstanding of what these organizations do. I have to say, if I had to go back and say, what do I think was like a Biden administration flaw.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And I know there's like a ton of, there could be a big list, but I just think there needs to be a lot more public speaking. And it couldn't just be business as normal, which is that we don't speak. We only do stuff through public filings. There just needs to be a greater education of the public that institutions with all of their flaws do really good things for us.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
The actual firing of people who worked on the Trump cases is, completely violates the civil service rules. So that's illegal. That's the kind of thing that if these people sue, it goes to something called the Merit System Protection Board.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Meritocracy, that's interesting. So Tim, these are people who are protected. They're not at-will employees. You have to have a reason, a good cause reason to fire them. Why is that? Why do we not want, and we want a sort of civil service protection? Precisely so that every four years with a change of administration,
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
You don't just put in a bunch of loyalists because the idea is the facts and the law don't change. And people are just going to be there doing their job based on the facts and the law and not based on being a political crony of what the next administration wants. That's the ethos. That is why this all came to exist in sort of post-Tammany Hall. So to fire those people, you have to have good cause.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
So if they bring a lawsuit, I think they win. But the damage is done. But to me, one of the first things the acting attorney general did was fire these people. This is the head of our law enforcement agency. As a first step is just saying, you know what, I don't believe in civil service.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Exactly right. That's exactly right. And there was more grounds legally for what they did. It was more sort of politically legal. One of the things that was part of that scandal was with respect to removal of U.S. attorneys, the sort of heads of various prosecuting offices around the country.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
But there also was somebody on staff who was stripping out, at least this is the accusation, stripping out from the honors program people who were identified as sort of liberal or Democrats. That's totally improper to do that. And here, one of the things that's happened, and I know this because I'm now teaching a law school, is summer positions all on hold. People told the offers are rescinded.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
The honors program, which is new attorneys, it's a huge, wonderful way for DOJ to get us as a pipeline, the very best and brightest from clerkships. There's going to be somebody close to me that just got frozen on this exact thing. Exactly. Done. Employees who are still in their first year probationary period all put on a list to see who's going to be fired.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
The idea then is to really strip out as much as they can the civil service protections to create room for, in my view, it's like a bunch of loyalists.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
This is sharing government information with private companies. The reporting on that is particularly shocking. I mean, that is this is akin to saying, oh, you know what? Elon Musk wants all of our health care records. I mean, it's like, I mean, I'm sorry. He wants all of our financial records. Like, I mean, talk about big brother.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Yes, a lot of this is going to end up there. You know, at some point you wonder just how much the Supreme Court's going to try to keep their head down. And, you know, if for some reason, let's say in birthright citizenship, if the appellate courts are all sort of uniform, then they may not need to step in on it because they're going to be sort of front and center.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
But essentially their decision last year in the presidential immunity case, where they basically had this vision that,
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
of an all powerful executive branch is one that Donald Trump is taking to the extreme, not just saying there's a unitary executive, meaning that he's in charge of everything that happens within the executive branch, but he seems to have a view, which is I'm in charge of everything that happens in every branch.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
So, you know, I can do things and I can actually say things that violate a congressional statute because it violates my presidential powers. So he is sort of this really beyond maximalist view, and it's been analogized as just a dictatorial view. I don't think at that maximal level, I'm not sure he's going to have five votes on that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
I think Roberts, for instance, as much as he has this view of an extremely broad executive power position, I think that's a bridge too far. And so... That's just four, though. Yeah, well, it's four. I think he's four and Amy Coney Barrett, I think, is five.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
You know, on the presidential... Again, this is all speculation, but on the presidential immunity decision, I actually think her concurrence was a very rational... way to try and deal with the issues. And if that had been the majority opinion, I think we all would have been like that made a lot of sense. I mean, I really do think she's somebody to keep an eye on.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And just one more data point for her. You may remember there was a case called Fisher, which had to do with the obstruction statute that was charged with respect to many, many, many January 6th defendants. She wrote the dissent in that case. She actually authored the dissent saying that the statute as written completely supports what the government did here and the charges here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
That was the charge about like interfering with a proceeding, a formal proceeding. Exactly. Whether you're obstructing sort of the congressional effort, whether it was enough to sort of be physically attacking it and physically disrupting what Congress was doing, or whether there had to be some effect on papers or records.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
The majority sort of narrowed the statute, and she was like, that's not what the statute says, and it makes no sense. And she wrote a very cogent dissent. My big point is not whether you agree or disagree with her on that decision, is it was interesting that she was writing the dissent.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Well, it's Russia. This is the patronage oligarchy. This is why Putin's fabulously wealthy. It's like he's got the levers of power and he's got the ability to decide how difficult your life's going to be. And you have Paramount saying, well, I'm concerned about a merger, so we're basically going to pay a bribe. That is the way it reads.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And you have other examples of that, whether it's CNN settling its lawsuit, whether you have sort of capitulation issues with Jeff Bezos saying, you know, we're not going to take a position on endorsing a presidential candidate because we don't like the fact that it would make us appear to be biased one way or the other.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
But at the same time, he then goes to the inauguration and is in the front row, which, of course, that would have no appearance whatsoever. So you're seeing over and over in these kinds of examples, but the idea of the lawsuits is really an example of just a patronage system that is exactly what happens when you have oligarchs, where you're just paying off that money.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And let me just give you one other scary piece on this, which is during the campaign, the president gave notice to the Department of Justice that he was going to bring a lawsuit for $100 million in connection with the search at Mar-a-Lago. So he can bring that lawsuit. And since the Department of Justice is now under his thumb, he can order them to settle it, his own lawsuit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And so there's nothing wrong with the search. The search has been a court ordered and authorized. Even Judge Cannon said that that was an appropriate search. So there's more to come on that. I don't know. We'll watch it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Tim, what do you really think?
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Well, of course not. I mean, it's just happening now that this is some horrible wrong, which is that instead of commercials, they've got sponsorships. And even if you thought that was a practice that shouldn't be engaged in, by public news outlets. I mean, the fact that it's happening right now and it's targeting just them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
All of this is what we've been talking about is just, this is the hungry playbook, hungry with the country. This isn't subtle. And this is one where for a while, people like you and me have been saying, this is what's going to happen, folks. This is what's going to happen, folks. Well, it's happening.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
you toss your side like a pile of leaves i've got to find some better ways for five me to run around the bend when the government may just surround you again if dying young won't change your mind baby baby baby baby or you won't forfeit. Dying young won't change your mind. Baby, baby, baby, baby, right on time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Yeah. I was hoping this would be like, remember when Biden was elected? One of the great things about it was like, every day you didn't wake up and look at your phone and just be like, I don't want to wake up today. I just want to go back to sleep.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Jesus was talking about this all the time. It's really funny. I saw that in the Bible. There was a whole sort of like hit list of where, you know, with charity, there's a whole sort of waterfall.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Which one of these things is not like the other? Yeah. Don't you think, though, Tim, I mean, you're the political guy, I'm the legal guy. So don't you think this is J.D. Vance is so irrelevant to the administration in terms of, I mean, he's there for a reason, like the tech by reason, that's sort of hit the play there. But I mean,
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
He just seems like that is not where the action is in terms of, I think he's going to be a much more traditional vice president, which is like out of sight, out of mind. And this is his effort to somehow be relevant. But it reminds me, he famously was said, the J6 defendants, we obviously need to separate out the violent ones from the nonviolent ones.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And about a New York minute later, the president pardoned everybody. Right. So he's just clearly out of the loop and not being sort of respected as part of the team.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Senator, what I said was I didn't do the recording.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
That's why it says we, as you highlighted.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
It's kind of my people. I used to when I was a prosecutor and defense lawyers would come in and say and make presentations. There's a certain point where you'd say, you know what? Good luck to you with the jury. Like, make that argument to the jury. You want to say that we does not include me. Go for it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
A friend of mine who is a white-collar defense lawyer said when Pam Bondi issued her first day memos that this is the golden era for white-collar criminals. She basically was like, you know what, the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, gone. The Foreign Agents Registration Act, gone. I mean, her policies are really favorable for sort of rich white criminals and large corporations.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Public corruption cases, CEG, Eric Adams, and Rod Blagojevich. And foreign nation states, where the Foreign Election Interference Task Force and the kleptocracy unit and all of these things that were put in place to prevent foreign adversaries from acting here illegally, all disbanded.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
By the way, he has admitted that. He has not denied that he did that. He has said, I did it because I was concerned about leaks. I'm not really sure how being concerned about leaks is dealt with by taking notes because people can still talk. But just to be clear, he has not denied that he did that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Well, Danielle Sassoon brings that up. She says the analogy to the Victor Quid pro quo, she said, well, that's alarming because that was the White House. They're entitled to say, you know what, we'll give you this person and we'll give that person. You do a swap. That is not allowed in the criminal law to say you advance our policy agenda and we'll give you essentially in effect a pardon. But
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
keep it hanging over your head to make sure that you're on this chug collar. She's just like, that makes it even worse. And it's such a tell that Emil Bove in his direction has a footnote, to your point, look at the footnotes, that says, to be clear, this is not a quid pro quo. It just happens to be on his brain that, oh yeah, I need to make sure I say that I'm not doing this while I do it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
So another thing that has been reported is that he, according to the New York Times, after the Trump election, met personally with Eric Adams to work out the strategy that Eric Adams should use in meeting with Donald Trump in order to undermine the DOJ case. So this is the person who's the number two at the Justice Department figuring out how to undermine their own case, which smacks
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
of sort of obstruction. You want to talk about sort of potential obstruction of justice. I mean, that is unbelievable to be meeting with the defendant to talk about what's the strategy to make it look sort of good and put the packaging on this and lipstick on a pig. Crazy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
So let me just address what I think can happen in this particular case. There are a number of things. One is the thing that's never going to happen, which is the Senate could actually do something because they do have the Todd Blanch nomination before them. So they could actually call him back.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
They could investigate all of these things that are pipe dreams because, as you said, they have no backbone and they're not doing anything. Right. So that's one. Two, and I think much more realistic is that Judge Ho is going to have a hearing. That is the judge overseeing the case. And that could be really explosive. And he could require Emil Bove to appear to talk about what's going on.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Three, Kathy Hochul, the New York state governor, has the authority to remove the mayor. I don't know how she doesn't exercise that at this point. I know that she is talking about, gee, does that undermine democracy? But I think there's an equally good argument that when the mayor is so conflicted and has, as I said, this choke collar on, he is not representing the people who elected him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
He is representing somebody who was not elected as mayor of New York, which is the president of the United States. And he is also directing ICE and his people to violate local law. So she has sort of every reason to say it actually upholds democracy to say there needs to be a new election because this person cannot be operating in an unconflicted way. So those are three things.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
I also think you're going to see, and this is sort of, you know, in my little nerdy world, I think with respect to lawyers, I think you're going to see complaints in the bar with respect to Emil Bove's license, because there'll be allegations about what he is doing and the impropriety of it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
And the bar associations that are supposed to oversee us and have done a pretty good job with respect to people like Rudy Giuliani, for instance, I think you're going to see some action there. Again, I know that's sort of a small bore in terms of democracy writ large, but in terms of my little profession, it's kind of nice to see people policing themselves.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Well, widespread support. For Sassoon? Every single person I know within and alums within the FBI, outside of the FBI, Justice Department, everybody is fully supportive. I think that is why you were seeing so many people resign. And so I don't know how... Pam Bondi and Todd Blanche and Emil Beauvais go forward leading this organization.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
I mean, you need a certain number of horses to pull a wagon along. And there is widespread revolt. And just to be clear, it's not just because of policy. It's because of these people are trained to adhere to the rule of law.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Okay, what do we know? We know that there was a meeting last Friday with Danielle Sassoon and her deputies. She was in charge of, and her office was in charge of, the criminal case against the mayor of the city of New York, Eric Adams. It was brought about nine months ago. And the defense lawyers were there and Emil Bove was there. He is the acting deputy attorney general.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
New York minute ago, he was one of the criminal defense lawyers for Donald Trump. So he is a placeholder for the Trump administration in that position. And he's going to become the number two to the number two when Tom Blanche becomes the deputy attorney general. His confirmation hearing is pending in the Senate right now. Todd Blanche. Todd Blanche.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
So there's various disputes as to what happened at that meeting. But Danielle Sassoon, the head of the now former head of the Southern District of New There was sort of laid out a quid pro quo of I will sort of enforce your immigration policy in exchange for your dismissing the case. That has been disputed by Eric Adams' defense counsel. Understandable he would dispute it even if it happened.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
It's possible that there's just two different versions of what happened. More on that later. That is then followed up by a directive from Eyal Bove on Monday to the Southern District of New York saying, you need to dismiss this case without prejudice. I'm not basing this on the facts or the law. I'm basing it on two things. One, The case was brought too close to the New York City primary.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
That's a bogus, absurd argument. It was brought nine months before the primary. And there's zero DOJ rules about not bringing a case within nine months of a primary. So that's just a fictitious reason. And it's important that you make that judgment because it's like, why would you come up with that fictitious reason? Why not just go with the truth? if what you're doing is real.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
The second reason was sort of saying the quiet part out loud, which we're used to, which was the criminal indictment is going to interfere with the mayor's ability to carry out Donald Trump's immigration policies. That seems to corroborate what Danielle Sassoon said happened on Friday.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Notably, by the way, in her letter describing what happened, she says at that meeting, her deputies took notes and Emile Bove said, at the end of the meeting said, don't take notes and confiscated them and took them. Again, why would you possibly care about somebody taking notes, which people do all the time, if nothing was being said that you in any way That was improper.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
It's funny. I always tell my law students I teach at a law school, I always say, read the footnotes. That's where the people say, oh, yeah, by the way, here's a little factoid that tells you what's going on.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
And notably, the direction from Amro Bove to the Southern District of New York was to dismiss the case without prejudice, meaning that, as everyone has talked about, there's a sort of Damocles effect. hanging over Eric Adams' head, or as I like to say, a choke collar.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
And you've already seen the effects of that choke collar, which is, it has been widely reported that on Monday, which feels like a million years ago, but just this past Monday, Eric Adams met with his entire leadership team, every senior agency head and their general counsels, and said, do not speak ill of Donald Trump. Mr. Trump. Yes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
And then second, yesterday, he said, I'm going to allow ICE agents into local prisons like Rikers to effectuate immigration arrests. That is in violation of local law. So it's just remarkable. So here's a guy who's under indictment, out on bail, saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm authorizing them to violate local law. The mayor is not allowed to do that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Just to be clear, the mayor has no power to say violate local law any more than, Tim, you and I saying that. So there is now this standoff because where we are right now is Daniel Sassoon has said, I am not doing this. I'm resigning rather than carry out what she believed, and I can agree with her, is both an improper and arguably illegal order from Emil Bove.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
He then says, I'm moving the case, the prosecutor's assigned to the case, I'm moving it from New York to Washington, D.C. to the public integrity section. Now, just to be clear, the criminal case is still pending in the Southern District of New York. You can't change that. The judge who has the case has the case. But it gets assigned to the public integrity section.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
And that's why, Tim, each person, like the Saturday Night Massacre, is saying no, no, no, no, no. So you have six people who have now resigned. I'm sure everyone at the Department of Justice is saying, I'm not answering my phone because it could be Maybe I'll say, I want you to go to the Southern District of New York and do this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
So there's a pending criminal case. And in order for that case to disappear from the docket, there needs to be a motion. So somebody has to say discontinue it, and that has to have court approval. The court has limited authority to say no, but if it was shown to be an illegal order or for improper purposes, there are a number of things the judge could do.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
The most extreme would be he could hold a hearing to say, what happened here? I want to know if this is an illegal scheme. I think he should have a hearing. And here's the really extraordinary thing that he could do is he could say, no, I am not doing this. I think this is part of a quid pro quo. I don't think you have a valid basis to dismiss it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
At that point, the prosecutors, the plaintiffs in the case are saying, I'm not going forward because Emil Bove is saying I'm not doing it. So what could the judge do? He could appoint an independent team to prosecute the case. That has happened in a case called Donziger. A colleague of Judge Ho, Lewis Kaplan, whom some of your listeners may remember, he had...
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
the E. Jean Carroll case, where there were two separate verdicts in favor of E. Jean Carroll, and he was the judge who oversaw that case. So, in a separate case, he actually appointed a special prosecutor to go forward with a case which he thought was meritorious.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Let's assume that Emil can't find a prosecutor. He goes through thousands of people. But let's say he does it or he finds somebody to do it. And they go into court and they say, Judge Ho, we would like to withdraw this case. The judge does not have to agree to that. The judge could say, why?
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
why do you want to do this and if the judge were to hold a hearing and conclude that there was an improper quid pro quo here the judge would be again it's limited authority but he'd be within his rights to say the court is not going to be a part of this and then the case is not dismissed so it's not a unilateral authority for the prosecutors to say we're not going forward.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
She isn't. You know, it's so funny. She will be, though, because she is going to be vilified the way Bill Barr is now viewed. Like, Bill Barr and Andrew Weissman are now, it's like they're one in the same. It's like, why? Because we did something that Donald Trump doesn't like.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
It is. You know, this is where, I mean, I hate to sound Pollyannish or naive or be on a soapbox, but What you are seeing at the Southern District of New York, at main justice in the public integrity section, and just let's not remember that this is all on the heels of everything we're seeing at the FBI, which is also not a hotbed of the deep state.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
It is a conservative organization where the acting head of the FBI, Special Agent Driscoll, was also selected by Trump to lead that agency while they await the confirmation of Kash Patel. All of them have been pushing back. And that's where what I would tell you, and again, I don't mean to sound Pollyannish, but people act out of principle.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
All of these people, when I was in the department, their policies you agree with and you disagree with. There are Democrats and Republicans in the White House that come in all the time. And you're used to policy directives that you have to implement. And if you can't stomach it at all, you can leave.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
But it is so rare that you ever see a situation where prosecutors and agents are resisting because something they believe is illegal. The last time we saw this was Trump 1.0, when prosecutors resigned in the Roger Stone case. I was so taken aback. It does not happen. And the only other time I can think of of note is the Saturday Night Massacre.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Absolutely. I mean, what you are seeing within the Department of Justice, including the FBI, is a sort of I am Spartacus moment where people are really standing up. And that is why Emil Bove has gone through six, count them, six people who all say, I am not carrying out what has been described as a quid pro quo.