Andrew Weissmann
Appearances
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
The problem for Kash Patel is he tried to, every time he was confronted with his own prior words, he would do this kind of dance, or he would say it's out of context when the senators were actually reading his exact words. And it also misses the entire import. I mean, the import of everything he was doing for the last few years was to say, I am fully embracing, along with Donald Trump,
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
The politically oppressed January 6th defendants, they are political prisoners. And then he turns around in his confirmation hearing and says, no, but I didn't mean the violent ones. And also, I'm not really aware of everything everybody did. So when you're showing me bad people, well, maybe I wasn't including those. I mean, it's just a completely different story.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
than what he was saying and has been saying and is in his book in writing. I found the whole thing sort of appalling when you looked at what he was saying now versus what he was saying a minute and 32 seconds ago.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Like that was just the whole thing. I totally agree here. Let me give you an example of sort of very specific, which is he was asked a lot about having been in the grand jury and, in connection with the Mar-a-Lago classified documents case. Why was he put in the grand jury? Well, presumably it's because he was on a podcast on May 5th, 2022, where he said, I know that Donald Trump
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
issued an order to declassify documents that are at Mar-a-Lago. I was there when he ordered the declassification of those documents. So he's there to sort of provide some kind of defense. And so the government puts him in the grand jury.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
He asserts the Fifth Amendment, which, as Adam Schiff pointed out, must be the very first time that somebody who's being proposed to be the director of the FBI has taken the Fifth Amendment. Fifth Amendment means that you have a good faith belief that a truthful answer to the questions would incriminate you in a crime. He is then immunized and forced to testify.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And he's asked sort of over and over again about that and dodges and weaves and he gets the law wrong about whether he can speak. But ultimately, he says no. I have no idea what documents are at Mar-a-Lago. So I wasn't there. I don't know what documents are there in Mar-a-Lago.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
How do you square that with, I know that Donald Trump declassified the documents at Mar-a-Lago with a statement that I don't know what's at Mar-a-Lago? I mean, completely inconsistent. That's again, as a former prosecutor, that's exactly what you look for. You look to defend and you're like, I can't wait for this cross-examination.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
There's no way that you can say, I know he declassified documents at Mar-a-Lago when you simultaneously under oath say, I have no idea what's at Mar-a-Lago.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
How about Grassley saying, you know, we're looking forward to you restoring the reputation and integrity of the FBI, which is, you know, has its reputation right now is at historic lows. And thank God we have this white knight coming in to save it, which is.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
So Alice in Wonderland, when the reason it is in that shape in a large part is because Kash Patel for the last four years has been denigrating the FBI and making up a false story that they were the ones behind January 6th. And so you're sitting in a hearing where it's just as people in MSNBC say, it's Earth 2. It's just divorced from reality.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Well, one, there's already reporting that senior officials at the FBI are being told to either resign. If they don't resign, they will either be fired or they'll be demoted.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
beggar's belief. And also, did you see the Grassley said, you know, if you want to answer, because if not, we can just move on. I mean, what the hell is that? I mean, it's like, let me just step in and protect you from a hard question. I mean, it was just shocking. I mean, there either is going to be a true hearing or not. But I want to make sure people understand that
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
That does not happen at the Bureau. These are career people. They're protected by all sorts of civil service requirements. Obviously, if somebody is not doing a good job, then they can be demoted. But the idea that You just get rid of your senior leadership that have been there for years and years, have tons of experience.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
They're in those positions because of that longevity of knowing what they're doing. And the so-called seventh floor is typically filled with the best at the bureau. And you need them. For a whole host of reasons. You know, you think that there are mistakes that the FBI makes. Well, you know what? If those people on the seventh floor weren't there, there'd be a whole lot more.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And so this is really unheard of. Institutional knowledge. Exactly. And just judgment. Good judgment is so important, and a lot of that comes from the experience of having lived through lots of cases, also just how to be effective. I mean, people, I don't think, understand when this whole idea of anti-experience, that anybody can do the job. No, that's not true.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
The judgment and ability to be able to sift through what is noise and what is real is critical in all sorts of ways, but particularly in national security, where there's tons of noise. And the art, I remember Robert Mueller saying this, the art is knowing noise. What is the thing to focus on? What is the thing that causes the most concern? And that is what we count on to prevent bombs going off.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
I mean, there's not a single person at the hearing and Kash Patel's hearing who had the audacity, no Republican had the audacity to say, no, this man is the best person for the job. Of all of the people in the entire country, this is the guy. But you know what? That's supposed to be the standard.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Big picture and small picture. So obviously, big picture is you need a director and a bureau that's going to be governed by facts and law. So if you believe that the FBI is the one that fomented January 6th, that's just not true. And so not being governed by facts, that's how you do an investigation. You're ultimately going to need to go to court and prove things.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
So you need to know what the facts are and be able to establish it. It's all good and well to spout off things at a hearing, to write whatever you want in a book. That's not the way the FBI works and it's not where the courts work. at least so far.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
In terms of specifics, so this idea that we can just take everybody from headquarters and move them to the field, having been in both situations, been in the field and been at headquarters, I mean, obviously there's great work that happens in the field, but again, from a national security perspective and the intelligence community, it's That really has to be coordinated through headquarters.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Let me just give one quick example. Do you want the field offices, of which there are scores and scores of field offices, to be independently and separately interacting with our foreign counterparts? So we have an enormously tight relationship with what's called the five I's. So England, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. There's an enormous amount of sharing of intelligence.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
There's also sharing of intelligence with other countries. That has to be centrally coordinated, just so people aren't thinking that's to make other countries safe. No, that's to make our country safe. And that has to be coordinated at a national level. That's why you need people like that. Also, you really need to make sure people are taking consistent positions and know what they're doing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And a lot of the offices around the country have never done a terrorism case. Thank God. And when they get their first one, are they supposed to learn on the job? Or are you supposed to have people at headquarters helping them? The idea of decentralizing all of the FBI, which was Cash Fatale's sort of famous statement coming in, is another way of saying, I'm just going to eradicate it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
So it is in charge of... Any and all prosecutions of terrorists in the United States, even if the terrorism is happening overseas, but it affects, let's say, an American, like a bomb goes off and an American is killed, we have jurisdiction.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
If there is going to be a criminal case against that person, if they're going to be detained here under law enforcement authorities, the FBI has to be involved and takes the lead in that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
It is true that with respect to just intelligence operations, if you're trying to look for just what's happening in country X overseas, there are other agencies that have significant responsibilities, including the CIA and the NSA, the sort of alphabet soup of Washington, D.C.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
The first thing I just want to make sure people understand is when I first got to the FBI, I was the general counsel. One of the most palpable things about the FBI at that time was how apolitical that institution is. Unlike most agencies in Washington, there is one and only one political appointee, which is the director. That's really dissimilar to a whole range of other agencies.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
agencies and the reason for that is it's not supposed to be a political agency it's supposed to just be based on facts and law and that really was felt within the building that it's just like wherever the facts are we don't care you know what the political consequences are
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
So I think within the building, this development has got to be sending shockwaves, but not in a good way of people thinking, oh, change is good. I think there probably are people who have been politicized, which is really unfortunate, and who... are going to be sort of mega loyalists. But I think there are other people who are just going to be like, I don't need this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And there's another acronym that is a FBI acronym, which is the people who've put in their 20 years. I remember a friend of mine who was there and she said, you know, I'm KMA. And I'm like, I'm sorry, what is that? And she's like... kiss my ass. And I said, well, what does that mean? And she said, it means that I've done my 20 years.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And so I'm here for the mission, but any day I don't like it, I can retire with full benefits because I'm at that point. And I'm only here because I believe in the FBI and the mission. And I think for those people, the KMA people, they're going to be, I'm out the door.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
I think the way I think about that, which is maybe sort of a pipe dream at this point, is I'm an institutionalist. I still think facts and law matter. I hear you that those checks with respect to judges and juries doesn't come until... later, in most instances, unless you're Donald Trump. So I sort of count on that in that if there's nothing there, then a lot of this will be wasted time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
I mean, it's not a crime to be on cable news. Last time I checked, even though Kash Patel famously has said he's going after the media, whether it's criminally or civilly, we'll deal with that later. Interesting thing for the head of the FBI to say. I
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Of course, capitol is a huge concern, but I actually think one of the bigger concerns is watching these hearings and watching the complicity of various senators and congresspeople in the lies. It's just appalling. And that, to me, is a concern that when you're thinking about the checks and balances, you're like, oh, well, there's no check there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
they're perfectly happy to go along with things that they have to know are not true.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Right. And the thing I'm worried about, and I think it's because I've been on the inside in the intelligence community, is I keep on sort of saying this word is Katrina. Right. I mean, do you remember when that happened that there was rightful sort of outrage and pushback because the head of FEMA was not ready for the job? He was learning on the job.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And you cannot put in people who are the kind of nominees that we're seeing and think there isn't going to be a crisis. I mean, the Department of Defense, the FBI, the head of intelligence, HHS, and these are the people who are going to be handling a crisis involving our security, whether it's health security, whether it's
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
physical security, the idea that there isn't more outrage at this and a sense of like, can you please find some more competent people? And a real misunderstanding of what these organizations do. I have to say, if I had to go back and say, what do I think was like a Biden administration flaw.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And I know there's like a ton of, there could be a big list, but I just think there needs to be a lot more public speaking. And it couldn't just be business as normal, which is that we don't speak. We only do stuff through public filings. There just needs to be a greater education of the public that institutions with all of their flaws do really good things for us.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
The actual firing of people who worked on the Trump cases is, completely violates the civil service rules. So that's illegal. That's the kind of thing that if these people sue, it goes to something called the Merit System Protection Board.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Meritocracy, that's interesting. So Tim, these are people who are protected. They're not at-will employees. You have to have a reason, a good cause reason to fire them. Why is that? Why do we not want, and we want a sort of civil service protection? Precisely so that every four years with a change of administration,
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
You don't just put in a bunch of loyalists because the idea is the facts and the law don't change. And people are just going to be there doing their job based on the facts and the law and not based on being a political crony of what the next administration wants. That's the ethos. That is why this all came to exist in sort of post-Tammany Hall. So to fire those people, you have to have good cause.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
So if they bring a lawsuit, I think they win. But the damage is done. But to me, one of the first things the acting attorney general did was fire these people. This is the head of our law enforcement agency. As a first step is just saying, you know what, I don't believe in civil service.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Exactly right. That's exactly right. And there was more grounds legally for what they did. It was more sort of politically legal. One of the things that was part of that scandal was with respect to removal of U.S. attorneys, the sort of heads of various prosecuting offices around the country.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
But there also was somebody on staff who was stripping out, at least this is the accusation, stripping out from the honors program people who were identified as sort of liberal or Democrats. That's totally improper to do that. And here, one of the things that's happened, and I know this because I'm now teaching a law school, is summer positions all on hold. People told the offers are rescinded.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
The honors program, which is new attorneys, it's a huge, wonderful way for DOJ to get us as a pipeline, the very best and brightest from clerkships. There's going to be somebody close to me that just got frozen on this exact thing. Exactly. Done. Employees who are still in their first year probationary period all put on a list to see who's going to be fired.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
The idea then is to really strip out as much as they can the civil service protections to create room for, in my view, it's like a bunch of loyalists.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
This is sharing government information with private companies. The reporting on that is particularly shocking. I mean, that is this is akin to saying, oh, you know what? Elon Musk wants all of our health care records. I mean, it's like, I mean, I'm sorry. He wants all of our financial records. Like, I mean, talk about big brother.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Yes, a lot of this is going to end up there. You know, at some point you wonder just how much the Supreme Court's going to try to keep their head down. And, you know, if for some reason, let's say in birthright citizenship, if the appellate courts are all sort of uniform, then they may not need to step in on it because they're going to be sort of front and center.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
But essentially their decision last year in the presidential immunity case, where they basically had this vision that,
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
of an all powerful executive branch is one that Donald Trump is taking to the extreme, not just saying there's a unitary executive, meaning that he's in charge of everything that happens within the executive branch, but he seems to have a view, which is I'm in charge of everything that happens in every branch.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
So, you know, I can do things and I can actually say things that violate a congressional statute because it violates my presidential powers. So he is sort of this really beyond maximalist view, and it's been analogized as just a dictatorial view. I don't think at that maximal level, I'm not sure he's going to have five votes on that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
I think Roberts, for instance, as much as he has this view of an extremely broad executive power position, I think that's a bridge too far. And so... That's just four, though. Yeah, well, it's four. I think he's four and Amy Coney Barrett, I think, is five.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
You know, on the presidential... Again, this is all speculation, but on the presidential immunity decision, I actually think her concurrence was a very rational... way to try and deal with the issues. And if that had been the majority opinion, I think we all would have been like that made a lot of sense. I mean, I really do think she's somebody to keep an eye on.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And just one more data point for her. You may remember there was a case called Fisher, which had to do with the obstruction statute that was charged with respect to many, many, many January 6th defendants. She wrote the dissent in that case. She actually authored the dissent saying that the statute as written completely supports what the government did here and the charges here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
That was the charge about like interfering with a proceeding, a formal proceeding. Exactly. Whether you're obstructing sort of the congressional effort, whether it was enough to sort of be physically attacking it and physically disrupting what Congress was doing, or whether there had to be some effect on papers or records.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
The majority sort of narrowed the statute, and she was like, that's not what the statute says, and it makes no sense. And she wrote a very cogent dissent. My big point is not whether you agree or disagree with her on that decision, is it was interesting that she was writing the dissent.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Well, it's Russia. This is the patronage oligarchy. This is why Putin's fabulously wealthy. It's like he's got the levers of power and he's got the ability to decide how difficult your life's going to be. And you have Paramount saying, well, I'm concerned about a merger, so we're basically going to pay a bribe. That is the way it reads.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And you have other examples of that, whether it's CNN settling its lawsuit, whether you have sort of capitulation issues with Jeff Bezos saying, you know, we're not going to take a position on endorsing a presidential candidate because we don't like the fact that it would make us appear to be biased one way or the other.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
But at the same time, he then goes to the inauguration and is in the front row, which, of course, that would have no appearance whatsoever. So you're seeing over and over in these kinds of examples, but the idea of the lawsuits is really an example of just a patronage system that is exactly what happens when you have oligarchs, where you're just paying off that money.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And let me just give you one other scary piece on this, which is during the campaign, the president gave notice to the Department of Justice that he was going to bring a lawsuit for $100 million in connection with the search at Mar-a-Lago. So he can bring that lawsuit. And since the Department of Justice is now under his thumb, he can order them to settle it, his own lawsuit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And so there's nothing wrong with the search. The search has been a court ordered and authorized. Even Judge Cannon said that that was an appropriate search. So there's more to come on that. I don't know. We'll watch it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Tim, what do you really think?
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Well, of course not. I mean, it's just happening now that this is some horrible wrong, which is that instead of commercials, they've got sponsorships. And even if you thought that was a practice that shouldn't be engaged in, by public news outlets. I mean, the fact that it's happening right now and it's targeting just them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
All of this is what we've been talking about is just, this is the hungry playbook, hungry with the country. This isn't subtle. And this is one where for a while, people like you and me have been saying, this is what's going to happen, folks. This is what's going to happen, folks. Well, it's happening.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
you toss your side like a pile of leaves i've got to find some better ways for five me to run around the bend when the government may just surround you again if dying young won't change your mind baby baby baby baby or you won't forfeit. Dying young won't change your mind. Baby, baby, baby, baby, right on time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Yeah. I was hoping this would be like, remember when Biden was elected? One of the great things about it was like, every day you didn't wake up and look at your phone and just be like, I don't want to wake up today. I just want to go back to sleep.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Jesus was talking about this all the time. It's really funny. I saw that in the Bible. There was a whole sort of like hit list of where, you know, with charity, there's a whole sort of waterfall.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Which one of these things is not like the other? Yeah. Don't you think, though, Tim, I mean, you're the political guy, I'm the legal guy. So don't you think this is J.D. Vance is so irrelevant to the administration in terms of, I mean, he's there for a reason, like the tech by reason, that's sort of hit the play there. But I mean,
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
He just seems like that is not where the action is in terms of, I think he's going to be a much more traditional vice president, which is like out of sight, out of mind. And this is his effort to somehow be relevant. But it reminds me, he famously was said, the J6 defendants, we obviously need to separate out the violent ones from the nonviolent ones.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And about a New York minute later, the president pardoned everybody. Right. So he's just clearly out of the loop and not being sort of respected as part of the team.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Senator, what I said was I didn't do the recording.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
That's why it says we, as you highlighted.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
It's kind of my people. I used to when I was a prosecutor and defense lawyers would come in and say and make presentations. There's a certain point where you'd say, you know what? Good luck to you with the jury. Like, make that argument to the jury. You want to say that we does not include me. Go for it.