Anastasia Nicolazzi
Appearances
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
But there was nothing on his record indicating sexual assault or extreme violence.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Today's story takes us to Beaverton, Oregon, a leafy suburb just a few miles outside of Portland. Beaverton is filled with parks and tree-lined streets that weave through the quiet neighborhoods.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
When asked why he fled from police, Gore explained that he was on probation and was concerned he was going to be arrested or returned to his family. But he showed no signs that he knew the real reason he was being questioned by police.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
If Gore suspected that the interview had to do with Milana, he wasn't showing it. But as we've always said, a goal in any interview is to keep the subject talking. So investigators moved slowly and deliberately, building rapport as they zeroed in on his timeline for the days leading up to Milana's murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
So Gore admitted that he knew the 13-year-old, but he denied that there was any romantic relationship between them.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Let's just pause for a second here to note that it's of course not unheard of for teenagers to experiment with alcohol. So we won't even get into where they may have gotten it or that larger discussion about minors and drinking. But we should remember that Milana was only 13 and she was physically small in stature. So any amount of alcohol may well have affected her.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Daniel claimed this was the last time he saw Milana, walking in the rain back towards the shopping center. He also claimed that the next day he even texted her, but she never responded.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Still, he admitted being with Milana on the day of her murder, even to being the last one to see her alive.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
And that's exactly what they did. And as they looked for ways to corroborate his story, investigators uncovered a single inconsistency, but one that would turn the entire case upside down.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Despite their suspicions, investigators didn't have direct evidence that Gore was anything more than a friend who had been with Milana on the same day she was believed to have been attacked and killed.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
As we have seen before, malls and shopping centers are often full of security cameras, so police can often follow someone's every move, and that was the case here. After leaving the yogurt shop, Milana and Daniel could be seen walking to the bus stop and boarding a bus, just as Gore had told police.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
It was about 7.45 p.m. on the night Milana disappeared. But while the cameras lost sight of them, their cell phones offered some chilling details of what happened next. Milana's phone suddenly turned off while Daniels indicated he proceeded into the woods towards his makeshift campsite.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
She also claimed that he appeared to have several scratches on his face and immediately went into the bathroom to call an ex-girlfriend.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
They were also still investigating the sexual assault committed against Milana before she was killed. And as part of that, they collected a biological sample from Gore for DNA analysis to compare to evidence collected by the medical examiner.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
The samples Gore agreed to provide proved critical to the case against him. The testing resulted in a match. It was Gore's DNA on the boxers that had been recovered and also his DNA recovered from Milana Lee. And we'll leave it at that.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
And I definitely look at the case myself as strong at that point, right? But there's never such a thing as I've said, like as a slam dunk. But there's all these pieces of circumstantial evidence that are being stitched together. But, you know, I always have to think like the defense, like what could they say? And they could say that any sexual activity was consensual, right?
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
To be a successful prosecutor, you need to be disciplined, resilient, and have the ability to think strategically, all attributes which one would learn in the military.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
And that something happened to Milana after the two sexes. Parted ways, you know, as a prosecutor, I'd be very comfortable going into court and showing all the pieces that disprove that idea, that there was anything consensual between them and this not equating to a violent crime.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
But, you know, as we always say, Scott, you need to guard against the various possibilities that the defense may use if this proceeds to trial.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
But before senior deputy DA John Gerhard could even get to trial, he had to first overcome a legal hurdle set in motion by a new law.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
And in this case, John was more than prepared to prove that Daniel Gore should be tried as an adult. And in the end, his argument to the court was successful.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
And there it was, right out of the gate, the defense made their argument clear. They claimed that Daniel had a consensual sexual encounter with a 13-year-old because it's a statutory sexual assault charge because of her age. But however, even putting that aside for a moment, the defense went on to argue that he did not kill her. And they also relied on that same DNA to try and prove their claim.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Thirteen-year-old Milana Lee and her family had recently immigrated to Beaverton from Kazakhstan. The bright young sixth grader hadn't been in the States very long, but she was already adapting well to life in her new hometown.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
And the defense attorney made a big deal of this unidentified DNA, saying, I quote, we know who the killer is. We have his DNA. We just have to find him.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
And I also think, look, the defense went with using the pieces that they had. And think about this. They're just injecting, like, to your point, Scott, that bit of doubt, at least hoping that it'll rise to that level of reasonable doubt.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Because also what they're saying is, hey, convict him for this statutory sexual assault, you know, that there's consensual sex, but we also know that it's an age difference thing. So convict him of that. It's a lower level crime, likely a lower sentence as well, but don't convict him for the murder. So I think it's using those things together and hoping they will prevail.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
But if Daniel Gore was indeed the person who assaulted, beat, and strangled Milana, the critical question then became why. Was this teenager, even a troubled one, truly capable of this level of violence?
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
For example, Daniel's musical taste, which was something that was brought up during his questioning.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
And as off-putting and terrible as all that sounds, John was in no way suggesting that music could make a killer. But when paired with Daniel's internet search history prior to Milana's death, it started to paint a dark picture.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
The prosecution argued that Milana was lured into the woods by the older teen and there was violently assaulted and then strangled to death. The coincidences between her manner of death and his search history were overwhelming, suggesting that her murder may have been an attempt to carry out an extremely dark and violent fantasy.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Which brings us to the early morning of May 9th, 2022. Milana's mom had just returned home from working a night shift at the nearby Nike headquarters, which employed many people in the area. And when she entered the house, she expected to see both her daughters asleep.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Later, that ex-girlfriend would reveal to police what he told her.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
John also showed that Gore knowingly tried to cover his tracks after the murder by texting friends about the evening.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
And despite her daughter being a trusted, responsible young woman, she was also at 13 still a child. And so Milana's mom did exactly what most parents would do. She called 911.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
And so following protocol, police notified her school's administration, who then shared the news with the students and their families, hoping someone had information as to where Milana might be.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
And there, they stumbled on some articles of clothing that her friend recognized as belonging to Milana. They immediately retreated and contacted police.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Westside Linear Park was a popular recreation spot for walking and hiking. But it was also big, with trails winding through some pretty secluded wooded areas. As officers moved deeper into the woods, they kept their eyes peeled for signs of the missing teen.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Raising children can often feel like navigating a minefield of potential dangers. But for all of our modern-day methods for watching over our kids, from cell phones to doorbell cameras and GPS trackers, the risks to their safety never really goes away.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
investigators worked their way to the water. And as they lifted the blanket, their worst fears were confirmed. Half submerged in the water was the bruised and battered, unclothed body of 13-year-old Milana Lee. Given her young age, it was as horrific a crime scene that responding officers had ever encountered.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
We do want to warn you that the following content contains description of sexual assault and may be triggering for some.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Upon closer look, officers also noticed bruising around her neck, a sign that Milana may have been strangled. Her state of undress suggested the motive.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Figuring out who that person was started with the collection of evidence at the scene. A team of forensic investigators combed the area, searching for any clue, any fragment of evidence that might help piece together Milana's final moments.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Defensive wounds showed clear signs that Milana had tried to fight off her attacker, and her broken fingernails were also carefully examined for possible DNA belonging to her killer.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
To answer that question, investigators would need to start building their timeline of her last known whereabouts on the day she disappeared.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
But there is a line between taking these healthy risks, the kind that build confidence and resilience, and the kind that, sometimes unknowingly, can lead to emotional, mental, or even physical danger.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
According to her cell phone data, Milana had left home in the early evening of Sunday, May 8th, while her mom was still at work. She and her phone then headed in the direction of a local outdoor shopping center where investigators hoped they could track down a witness that maybe would have spotted her there.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
So who was with her in those hours before her death? Was it a friend, a killer, or both?
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
As news spread of the tragedy, friends and strangers alike contributed to a growing memorial of flowers, stuffed animals and candles on the sidewalk adjacent to the park where Milana's body was found.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Investigators' first lead came courtesy of Milana's cell phone location data, which led them to a shopping center not far from her home. And it was there that a young employee at a yogurt shop told police that she had seen Milana on the night police believed she was killed, and she wasn't alone.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
The very same wooded area in Westside Linear Park where Milana's body was found.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
which was also surprising because how would they have crossed paths? Daniel Gore had supposedly left school and was said to be living in a tent in the woods. While Milana was a middle schooler, living at home, new to the area, when investigators asked Milana's mom about her daughter's friendship with Daniel Gore, she said that she'd never heard of him.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsuspecting (Milana Li)
Milana's mother had prided herself in meeting all of her daughter's friends, so it was a shock for her to learn that Milana had been hanging out with this older boy.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
This is an off week for Anatomy of Murder, but we thought it would be a great opportunity to use the time to highlight a case where the family is still waiting for answers.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
We've talked about the concept of victimology obviously many times before, but that's because that is so important in every investigation. And that's going to be clear here, too, because we're the place that a person's death and that person's life really intersect. That really provides a roadmap to investigators, whether they're trying to figure out motive or even find the killer.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
Many of you will not have any idea what this is all about. It was a group called Criss Cross. It's because the two guys are this young hip hop duo. I think they were like 12 and 13 years old when they had their first big hit, Jump Jump, which of course has been going through my head since I first heard them talking about this. And their signature was that they would wear their pants backwards.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And again, they just did it one day for fun when they're trying to figure out how they could stand out. But it became a thing.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And Debra describes her son from the time he was very young as an old soul. He was this quiet kid who preferred the company of adults than often to his peers.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And I thought, what is he using these toothbrushes for? At first, I was like, OK, he's using them for something. He's cleaning something. He's building something. But it was just such this odd thing that he's always just asking his mom for a new toothbrush.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And this hobby was going to guide him into what he decided would be his future career. He wanted to be a mechanic. And so since he wanted that to be his career, he was working towards that. And that's why he decided to start Job Corps in Utah.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
There was nothing about him that would seem to compromise him in any way.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And Debra's reaction to them was visceral. No, not my son. And her reason was twofold. One, everything she knew about Anton, none of those things held true or possibilities for him. But that she was also worried that if this is what people were hypothesizing or talking about in the community, that that might also impact the detectives.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And if they thought these things about her son, would they maybe not work as hard?
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
It is. It's a valid concern, right? Because while I have certainly dealt with my share of these types of cases, and when I say these types, I mean that were gang-related or drug-related or things like that, and I've seen detectives work as hard on those, for sure, as any other case. But I've also seen it go the other way too, right? I mean, that they, for some reason, the result isn't the same.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
It isn't the case that they're going to choose to put on the top of the pile. And so for Deborah, she just wanted to make sure that there was nothing that was going to unfairly distract them or dissuade them for trying to figure this out.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
The holidays are recently behind us and will soon be ringing in the new year.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
You know, I've never heard of a parent doing that before with investigators, at least not like that. You know, just hearing her talk about it, it was just so incredibly powerful. I can say, like, I was stunned by sadness.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And it really showed by what she saw the very next morning. Those same detectives were out on the block, knocking on doors, speaking to people in the street. Were they planning to do that anyway the next day? Maybe. Or was it maybe that when they got up that morning, they remembered those home videos and they are like, we are getting out there right now to get working on this case.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
So as a recap, Anton was murdered between 8 and 9 p.m. That's not the middle of the night. It was April. Sunset that day was just a few minutes before 8 p.m. So while it was still nighttime, it wasn't really all that dark. And he was shot, remember, in front of his apartment complex, not in some remote, quiet area.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
So there's a strong possibility that there were people out there, which means that there were and are witnesses.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
With no answers and no witnesses forthcoming, at least to the police, Deborah decided to take matters into her own hands in the best way she could. So she and friends and family members, they literally took to the streets. It wasn't just with flyers. And yes, they did that to posting them on streetlights and mailboxes and wherever they could. But they literally stood out there with signs.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
You can tell by the title that this case is still unfortunately unsolved. But in that spirit of resolution, let's discuss it in hopes that in 2023, they will get that resolution they deserve.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
But investigators got nowhere. Just more dead ends. Silence. Another cold case.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
Before we hear from the cold case detective who works on this case, which is Detective Jacob Blass, and trust me, he does have keen insight on Anton's case, including new information that we haven't yet told you about. But again, we want to remind you it's an open investigation. And our goal here in AOM is, of course, always honoring the victim and telling their story.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
But also in this type of case, it's to get the word out. So here's the basic information for you to remember.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
If you have information, whether right now as you're hearing it or later on by the end or at any time at all, you can call the Fremont Police Department at 510-790-6900 or the Silent Witness hotline at 510-494-4856.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
But before becoming a member of the Fremont Police, Jacob had very different ambitions.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
Of course, all FBI investigators are not what you see on TV, you know, and you need the people that are sitting behind the desk or are working on the computer screens, the accountants that know how to crunch the numbers. But it wasn't exactly what he'd envisioned when he decided to sign up.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
But here's something interesting. The call didn't come in as a suspicious death or even a shooting.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
While, yes, of course, people hear gunshots. And, of course, at times, you know exactly what it is. But you don't always. You know, for those of you that haven't heard them, they can sound like other things. They can just sound like pop, pop, pop. They can sound like firecrackers. Sometimes it just gets lost in that cityscape noise. And it sounds like, at least for most, that's what happened here.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And also just think of what it was called in for, right? A person unconscious on the ground. This is a city. They are very busy being EMTs and investigators. So are they getting out there in seconds or minutes, like when they hear that there are, like you said, Scott, shot, fired, or someone down a result of some violence? Or is it, again, not taking their time? Maybe it's the wrong way to put it.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
You know, I didn't grow up with brothers. I just had one. But it really sounds like what we read about so often. You know, there was that difficulty in that masculinity as they grew. But then that angst soon became a closeness that only brothers can share.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
but that those critical moments may have been lost by what the caller knew or didn't know when they placed that call.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And so now that Jacob takes over the role as cold case investigator tasked with this case, he now on his own is going to start by looking deeply into Anton and who he was.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And so there is nothing in Antone's life that is pointing to a motive for murder. So if it isn't about the person, you have to start to look more closely at the place.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
Now, let's remember the time that we're talking. We're talking earlier in the 2000s. And so during that time period from 2007 to 2011, the FBI estimated that approximately 13 percent of all homicides annually were gang related. And that was throughout the U.S.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And again, you know, whether it is gang related or not, we hear about cases of mistaken ID all the time. You know, remember we featured one recently on AOM, Elliot Dickerson, wrong place, wrong time. They thought he was someone that had been in a fight. He wasn't. So again, not gang related, but mistaken ID.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
You know, the unfortunate thing with these gang rivalries is they really just take this violence to the street at times with no regard about the others, the innocents that get caught up in their melees.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
Now, here's a piece of information that adds more credence to the theory that Antone was innocently caught up in the crosshairs of maybe some sort of gang violence. And it has to do with another homicide.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
You know, any homicide can create fear in a community and fear of retaliation. But I think when it comes to the potential for it being perpetrated by gangs, there's even more of that.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
So knowing all these truths, one of the early things that Jacob did was try to incentivize people to come forward. And here's what he did.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
In April 2007, Anton was 19 years old, had just graduated high school. He went to Washington in Fremont, California, and his sights were set on soon heading off to Job Corps in Utah.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And that reward today is up to $60,000. And here's why shining a spotlight on this case or any case like it just might help the investigation. It is because through this podcast and through you hitting play on your phone or wherever you listen to your podcast, it has reach.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
It has reach for people who may never have heard about this case before or didn't know Anton's name to now know it and to recognize maybe know how, if they know something, they can help.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
What better way to use our off weeks than to highlight previous AOMs that have featured those cases that are still waiting for answers, still waiting for accountability in the crimes.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
Well, I don't know that I've ever actually thought to myself about people that are incarcerated listening to podcasts. I mean, it makes perfect sense, right? They have a lot of time on their hands and they have access to computers, which are authorized in law libraries. And I don't know how that works with what they can watch or what they can listen to necessarily.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
But it also is not uncommon to hear about cell phones being smuggled in. So people do have a lot of access even when they're inside of prisons and jails.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
You know, when we were talking about this case and whether we were going to profile it at all, it doesn't necessarily have all the various legs or twists that we're able to give you on others. But that's exactly why we chose to talk about it today. Because this case, while it needs to be solved for Anton and his family, it represents so many that are out there. And what better platform do we have
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
then to try to get the word out on those too, to all of you, our AOM community, who have showed that you are like-minded and care as much about these cases and the people impacted as we do.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
Tune in next week for another new episode of Anatomy of Murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
So, what do you think, Chuck?
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
So, I mean, there was nothing I could do. And it was later that night that Deborah got a call.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
So you have police, investigators, onlookers, and they're all in front of this apartment complex that is just swarming. But the one person that wasn't amongst them was Antone. They wouldn't tell me anything.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
You know, in the way that Debra is describing this, we've talked about this almost out-of-body experience before here on AOM. And I even think some have used the exact same analogy.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
What better way also to start the new year than with victim advocacy and trying to help a family still very much in need. If you or anyone you know has any information about this case, please contact the Fremont, California police. Their info is on our website or contact us here at AOM.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And in certain ways, I've always likened it to this fight or flight response. You know, you're there, it's happening, but your mind can't process it. So it really goes and is distracted by other things.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And so as Deborah and her boyfriend are at the precinct and answering every question that's being put to them, obviously in Deborah's mind, she is just clinging to that hope that her son, who's in the hospital, remember, is still alive.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
So Debra and her boyfriend make their way to the hospital as quickly as humanly possible. And when they get there, Debra knows right where to go because she actually worked at the hospital. So she not only knows the layout, but she knows kind of exactly what happens in a situation like this. But this time she's on the other side of the counter.
Anatomy of Murder
Unsolved: Silent Night (Aaron Anthony “Antone” Breaux)
And the world that Deborah is facing from that moment on, you can really just describe it with one word. Dark. It is dark because her youngest has been taken by homicide. But on top of that, there's just this anger within her from being held back for those hours, answering questions by the detectives while her son was in the hospital, possibly dying.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
The name Darlene Fisher was not just unknown to law enforcement, it didn't turn up anywhere. No car registrations, no social media, nothing.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
And thanks to the Amber Alert and the resulting media attention on the case, they were getting other leads as well.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
It turned out that Bobbie Jo was a popular and prolific poster on Ratter Chatter, which she used not just to generate business, but to share her love of terriers, dog breeding, and even more personal aspects of her life.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
But when investigators traced that user's account information, it actually led to the residence of a man named Kevin Montgomery.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
This Lisa Montgomery had asked the woman in Georgia to teach her 13-year-old daughter to show dogs. And they had actually struck a deal to do that. But here is where the strange part came in.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Along with preparing for the arrival of their first child, Bobby Joe was also the proud proprietor of Happy Haven Farms, a dog breeding business she and Zeb ran from home that specialized in rat terriers.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
It was a major break in the search for Bobby Joe Stinnett's killer and the possible location of her kidnapped infant daughter.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Investigators had always suspected that the woman who messaged Bobbie Jo Stinnett the day before her murder had used a fake name and email. But this Darlene Fisher made the mistake of not masking her IP address, which was traced back to a house in Melbourne, Kansas.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
And since this was now an abduction that had potentially crossed state lines, the FBI was called in to assist.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
In the approximately 48 hours since the murder, this had understandably already become a high-profile case, and the FBI agents were advocating for a bit more caution.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
At the sound of the dogs barking, Kevin Montgomery came out of the house and met investigators on the front porch.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
And let's just set the scene. Randy was confident that the person who arranged to meet Bobby Joe to see her dogs was also the person that had killed her. And that person's email was traced right back to this address.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
This was first and foremost a recovery mission, so Randy's instinct was to first check on the baby's condition.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
With their first baby on the way, a daughter, Bobbie Jo, sometimes worried that if she went into labor or there was some type of emergency, Zeb wouldn't make it back in time. But thankfully, Bobbie Jo's mother lived nearby and had always promised to be just a phone call away.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
It was at that point that Randy began to think that maybe Kevin had no idea why the police were in his house, but that maybe his wife, Lisa, did.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Because again, they're accomplishing more than one thing here. Like by just getting her to say anything, well, let her talk. And if she's telling the truth, they'll figure that out. And if she's lying, well, then they can use her words to prove it. They're also separating two people that as while he's thinking maybe Kevin doesn't know, they don't know it.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
You know, Scott, as I'm even hearing Randy talk about this, it really strikes me at this point like that chess match where each step is hopefully getting them closer to success. to where they want to get, which is going to be checkmate to figure out who did this and pull together the case.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Randy's gut told him that the woman on the couch was Bobby Joe's killer. And the baby she was holding was not her own.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
With the baby safely in the hands of law enforcement, Randy led the woman outside and towards his car.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Randy then asked Lisa Montgomery to get out of the cold and sit in his car. He hoped that the longer he kept her talking, the closer he would get to the truth.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Bobbie Jo assured her mom that she would be there and then said that she had to jump off the phone because someone had arrived at the house who was interested in buying a puppy.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Then Randy got an assist from an unlikely source as a car pulled up into the driveway.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
At that point, the clock was still ticking, not just because it was important to try and keep her talking, but also because Randy suspected that the reporters might be right behind them and their presence would only complicate, even jeopardize, an arrest.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
And the conversation they would soon have would reveal the disturbing truth about Bobby Joe's murder. By the time Detective Randy Strong sat down with Lisa Montgomery, he had plenty of suspect interviews under his belt. But even he knew that this was a special case.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
And eventually that perseverance and those cigarettes, they paid off.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
But as she approached, she noticed that despite the cold winter afternoon, the front door of the small craftsman-style house was wide open. And when she called out to Bobby Joe, there was no answer.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Montgomery had gotten directions to Bobby Joe's house off the internet, and she took blacktop highways to avoid towns where she might be spotted and recognized.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Randy described Montgomery's demeanor as eerily calm and devoid of emotion when she described what she did next.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
She then graphically described how she took the unborn child literally from Bobby Joe's body and then carried the baby girl from the house. Montgomery then fled the scene in the direction of her home in Kansas, more than a two-hour drive away. But she did make a stop along the way.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
It was about as full and disturbing as a statement like this can get. Lisa Montgomery had not just admitted to premeditated murder and kidnapping. She had admitted to carrying out a crime so heinous, so inhuman, it was almost unthinkable.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Apparently convinced that his wife had been pregnant for the last nine months, Kevin Montgomery did not question the sudden arrival of a new baby, or, while somewhat baffling, the absurdity of meeting that new baby in the parking lot of a chain restaurant instead of a hospital.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
She found her daughter lying on the floor of a small back bedroom. There was a lot of blood. As she rushed to her daughter's side, it was difficult to understand exactly what she was seeing. But it appeared that Bobby Joe had suffered a catastrophic injury to her abdomen.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
You know, Scott, obviously for anyone, us included, hearing this, it's one of those things that your head is like flipping around like over and over because you just can't even believe that this is horrendously true. Like there's obviously much more going on here, you know, whether it is mental health component or some motive that has not yet become clear.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
You know, when I'm looking at this as a prosecutor, it's like, well, did she know what she was doing is wrong, right? Because that is the criteria for holding someone accountable for their actions. And here, look, I mean, she faked the legitimacy of birthing a child, and then she continued to lie to law enforcement. And as you've said, like, you know, multiple times in this
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Like it was so pre-planned and that all goes against some sort of total mental break with reality, albeit horribly puzzling.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
DNA testing eventually confirmed the baby's identity as Bobbie Jo and Zeb's daughter. The infant was returned to her father, miraculously physically unharmed except for a small cut above her eye, a cut that doctors say was caused by the killer's blade.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
We do know that Montgomery was on the Ratter Chatter message board and followed along as Bobbie Jo discussed her experience as an expectant mother. But was there any other reason to target her in particular?
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Apparently, in the week prior to the homicide, Montgomery's ex-husband had filed for custody of their teenage children that had been living with their mother.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Out of respect for Bobbie Jo and her family, we've chosen not to play the recording of that call, as it is particularly graphic and distressing. Randy Strong, who was at the police station that afternoon, was there when first responders were dispatched to the scene.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
It was an elaborate and outrageous lie that would ultimately lead to a horrendous act of murder and all the terrible rest as you've heard it, all to keep from getting exposed.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
A forensic search of her computer also uncovered internet searches related to how to perform a cesarean section, how to register birth certificates from a home birth, and the location of nearby birthing clinics.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
And if that wasn't enough, there was also the DNA that was still found on Montgomery's own hands.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
At her subsequent trial, prosecutors argued that Montgomery's actions were calculated and deliberate, driven by her desperation to maintain her fabricated pregnancy story.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
On January 13, 2021, Lisa Montgomery was executed by lethal injection in the U.S. Penitentiary in Terre Haute, Indiana, becoming the first woman executed by the federal government in 67 years.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
It's been just over 20 years since the horrible day since Bobbie Jo's daughter lost her mom, and almost her own life before it had even begun. But she has never forgotten the efforts of the many people that came to her rescue and fought for justice for her mother.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Scott and I debated whether we would cover this case. Could we discuss it without being overly graphic in this already extremely disturbing crime? But we decided that Bobbie Jo lost her life in this most terrifying and brutal of ways. And remembering her is exactly why we would cover it, but hopefully as carefully as we could. Bobbie Jo is so excited to be a new mom.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
She was loved by her husband, her family, her friends. The crime committed against her is unexplainable. We're so thankful that law enforcement was able to save her infant daughter and allow her to grow up surrounded by her dad and true family. She lost her mom even before she was actually born. Bobbie Jo, we remember you today for who you were and the mother you were getting ready to be.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
And to your daughter, husband, and family, we hope you are well and continue to feel Bobbie Jo's love from above. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? I approve!
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
But incredibly, that was not the full extent of this shocking tragedy. The paramedic on scene reported that the umbilical cord attached to Bobbie Jo's womb had been severed. and her baby was missing.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Needless to say, Bobby Joe's injuries were severe and horrific. But they also told a story.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Before we begin, we just wanted to let you know that today's story includes some particularly disturbing content and graphic details.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Even veteran homicide investigators were struck by both the shocking violence of this murder and the urgency of the situation.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
In December of 2004, an almost unthinkable crime occurred in the tiny town of Skidmore, Missouri.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
The brutal murder left Bobbie Jo's family and the community in utter shock. The motive, while deeply disturbing, was clear. Someone murdered Bobbie Jo to kidnap her unborn child.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
And they immediately began by looking for any witnesses that may have seen who had been at the Stinnett's house that afternoon.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
But the sheriff was determined to use all means available to find this baby. And an Amber Alert remained a priority. With precious seconds ticking and a young life potentially on the line, the sheriff had no patience for the protocol.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
With a population of less than 300, Skidmore, Missouri is what you might imagine when you hear the words Small Town, USA.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Named for Amber Hegerman, a nine-year-old abducted in Texas in 1996, the Amber Alert system has helped to recover thousands of missing or abducted children with the help of the public and the media. It's kind of like a full-court press that can pay immediate dividends, but can also have another effect, turning a small-town tragedy into a national headline.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
The crime scene itself was beyond disturbing. It was unlike anything these investigators had ever seen before.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
So the presumption would be that either Bobbie Jo knew or was expecting her attacker, but whoever that person was, he or she left very few clues at the scene.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
Shortly after that call, Bobby Joe's mom called her again to confirm the ride home. But instead of Bobby Joe, she got the answering machine. And this was one of those machines where you would have been able to hear the incoming message being played on the speaker while it was being recorded. So now as investigators listened, they heard the recorded message from Bobby Joe's mom.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
According to her husband, Zeb, he didn't have a record of who might have made the appointment. But since most of her business was conducted online, that information surely would be found somewhere on his wife's computer.
Anatomy of Murder
Eerily Calm (Bobbie Jo Stinnett)
As you can hear from Randy's description, investigators were trying not to get tunnel vision and were leaving open the possibility that this person could have just been a witness, not necessarily the killer. But Randy also had a gut feeling that there was something off about that name and that email.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
One of the risks of trying to extract DNA from a sample of biological evidence like a hair, a spot of blood, or in this case, semen, is that you have to use up some of that sample in order to test it.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
That news was a hard pill to swallow. But it wasn't the last of the challenges his cold case investigation would face.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
The DNA testing was on hold. The bullet that killed her was missing. But taking a cue from Vicki's own family, John deployed one of a detective's most effective weapons, patience.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
That DNA profile was then entered into CODIS. And within days, the computer had returned a result that was now 43 years in the making.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
Vicki went on to become the first person in her family to graduate from college. And by 1979, when she was 28 years old, she had a promising career.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
A deep dive into Taylor's background revealed a long criminal history, including a murder charge for fatally shooting a man during an armed robbery in Washington.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
But here's the thing, like DNA is fantastic. I mean, it is amazing evidence, prosecutors, investigators, we all love it for the obvious reasons. But here's what DNA doesn't give you. It doesn't tell you when it was placed or left there, right? So if I'm the defense, I'm going to say, if this is a case, like, hey, this is all coincidence. It doesn't equal proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
Like, did they know each other? Was this a consensual interaction between them? Was evidence tainted? Was there transfer? You know, there's multiple possibilities here. for the defense. So like for me, when I'm hearing it, it's just always the important reminder that yes, you can place a specific individual to the item.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
So yes, he's going to be linked to Vicky through this DNA, but that is far from all the work that investigators need to do. But as you and I both know, Scott, it is a fantastic start. And Vicky's family, like they had waited for 43 years for any good news in regards to her murder investigation. And now finally, John could deliver.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
And while Taylor had been in and out of the criminal justice system for years, there was no record of a fixed address since 2019. So investigators really didn't know if he was still in the area.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
But this is where it helped to have the nation's capital as your next-door neighbor. John was able to call in a few favors from the federal government to help him track Taylor down.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
It's safe to say that Taylor was not expecting visitors, nor did the nursing home staff know that they were harboring a suspected killer.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
And as a member of that county's cold case squad, John was also an integral part of not just keeping Vicki's story alive, but helping to write its stunning conclusion.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
And getting that flat denial was huge because just having Taylor's DNA present on Vicky's clothing did not necessarily mean he was the person who had assaulted her. If he claimed to have known her, however unlikely, he could also have claimed that their encounter was consensual.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
On June 22nd, 2023, with an assist from the U.S. Marshals and the D.C. Metro Police, deputies from Charles County returned to Taylor's nursing home.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
The investigation had required an infinite amount of patience. And with the finish line in sight, John knew that this was not the time to rush their conversation.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
Taylor denied having anything to do with Vicki's murder. But as the interview went on, he did start to allow for the possibility that he had in fact been in contact with her.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
And what about the possibility that back in 1979, Taylor had known Vicki, even briefly? We know that her boyfriend James had gotten mixed review from friends, and Vicki had left work for a long lunch break on the day she was killed. Was it possible that she was also involved in another relationship outside of dating her boyfriend?
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
As the interview stretched into its second hour, investigators pressed him for the truth. Instead, Taylor offered up a shocking confession, at least of sorts.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
And you know, Scott, I have to say here, like when I was hearing this and thinking about this, just having had similar defenses multiple times over the years, like I always thought to this myself of what I would term like a ghost offense. A defendant would make up this mystery person, yet there was zero other evidence, even of their existence usually. So they're not an identifiable person.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
According to her boyfriend, James, who also worked at the Department of Agriculture. Vicki wanted to use his car to run some errands during her lunch break, and so she stopped by his desk on her way out.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
And by no coincidence, to me, it was always the ghost that did all the acts that were criminally subscribed to the suspect, what he was being accused of. So here, even though he is talking about this sexual encounter, which would still be sexual assault, non-consensual by the way he's describing it. To him, it's the murder that he's trying to keep himself a part of.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
And yet right here, like it's this mystery person who must have done all that.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
And as we know, it absolutely would be stepping over the line, although I think that he thinks he just got himself out of the murder. But again, if you're involved in certain felonies and sexual assault is absolutely one of them, if someone is killed during the course of that felony or soon thereafter, that is felony murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
So that's exactly the type of thing that John and any other investigator who is working these type of cases knows that you just need to keep them talking and then you can ferret out the truth from what they say, at least hopefully.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
From the prosecution's side, Taylor's DNA, coupled with Vicky's state of undress when she was discovered murdered, led to the only reasonable conclusion in this case that she was sexually assaulted and then killed. But in a case dating back over four decades, the trial would have significant challenges.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
On the day Vicki disappeared, the main witness who could testify to her whereabouts and timeline was her boyfriend, James. But by 2023, he had passed away.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
The co-worker's name was Mary Hickson, and assuming she was of similar age to Vicki, she would likely have been about 73 years old.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
During the trial, Mary testified about Vicki's movements on the last day she was alive.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
Taylor was found guilty on all charges. And while he never made a full confession or allocution of his crimes, the combination of evidence and witness testimony helped paint a compelling picture of a brutal picture of Vicki's last fateful day alive.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
According to co-workers, Vicki had never returned from her lunch break. And while this was the age before cell phones, and it was not unheard of to be out of touch for a few hours, it was completely out of character for Vicki, who was known to be both reliable and punctual.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
But her family also expressed relief and gratitude for justice finally being achieved after 45 years. Vicki's murder had obviously affected all of them, her parents, siblings, her son, and even the grandsons she had never had a chance to meet.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
Shortly after the arrest, Vicki's relatives gathered at the Charles County Sheriff's headquarters for a press conference. Among them was a sister that is a retired homicide detective from California, a brother who was a retired firefighter, a nephew who was a police officer in Texas, and her then 51-year-old son, a lawyer and former federal prosecutor from Georgia.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
In the shadow of tragedy, they had dedicated their own lives to service and the pursuit of public safety and justice.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
I went onto their website before recording this episode and was moved by the photograph of all the backpacks being donated as part of one of their latest initiatives. Think how important a simple backpack can be to a child who otherwise perhaps cannot afford one.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
You can learn more about Vicki, the foundation, or donate by going to their website, the Vicki Belk Foundation at vickibelkfoundation.org. You can also find the link on the AOM website page connected to this story. In July 2024, Vicki's sister Judy wrote a message to the young people receiving support from the foundation and to those that help keep the foundation moving forward.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
And I quote, Congratulations to all the 2024 VBS recipients and to the donors who continue to keep Vicki's legacy alive. And to this AOM community, we say, by learning about Vicki and her story, you too are all helping to keep Vicki's memory and her legacy alive.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
By the next morning, Vicki still hadn't shown up at either his home in Maryland or her family's home in Virginia. So James decided it was time to call police and report her missing.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
Tune in next week for another new episode of Anatomy of Murder. Anatomy of Murder is an AudioChuck original. Produced and created by Weinberger Media and Fresetti Media.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
This episode was written and produced by Walker Lamond. Researched by Kate Cooper. Edited by Ali Sirwa and Philjean Grande. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? No!
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
Bad relationship could suggest that maybe Vicki had left on her own accord. But a bad relationship could also suggest a possible motive. And an obvious first suspect if Vicky had indeed fallen victim to foul play.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
But not only were there no signs of Vicky, there were also no indications that James was hiding something. Coworkers could vouch for his whereabouts the previous day, and his concern for his girlfriend seemed genuine.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
Two days after Vicki was reported missing, her case would take a dramatic and tragic turn.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
The unidentified woman had suffered a single gunshot wound to the head, and by her positioning and state of undress, it appeared that she had also likely been sexually assaulted.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
the woman in the woods was positively identified as Vicki Lynn Belk. Two weeks earlier, she'd been the maid of honor in her sister's wedding. Now the family would be gathering for her funeral.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
During the autopsy, examiners were able to recover the bullet that had killed her and confirmed that Vicky had been sexually assaulted. And while DNA testing was not possible, detectives knew that any biological evidence of either the sexual assault or the murder would be crucial down the road.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
The same afternoon Vicki was located, her boyfriend's car was found abandoned in southeast D.C., not too far from where it had been parked in the RFK lot. The car was searched and fingerprinted, but it yielded no clues to who might be behind Vicki's brutal murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
And so, you know, Scott, just talking about the timeframe, again, and the limitations of that era, we're in the 1970s, far from all the technological advancements we have today. It really came down to what, you know, we call that gumshoe police work. Canvases, having to use the...
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
basic tools of investigation, fingerprints, things like that, which as you and I know, even though we have so many advancements today, most work and very often it still relies on that good old fashioned knocking on doors and talking to people.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
And so police had those conversations. And according to Vicky's friends and family, she was the last person to have any enemies or even associate with anyone that might want to do her harm. So investigators really did ultimately have very few leads.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
The pain and trauma that a violent crime inflicts on a victim's family can be not just life-changing, but multi-generational in its lasting impact.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
Over the next two decades, the Washington, D.C. area would experience a dramatic increase in its homicide rate, and Vicki's family worried that her murder would be buried under the pile of unsolved murders that was growing every year.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
When 28-year-old Vicki Lynn Belk, who was also the mother of a young son, was murdered in 1979, police were left with very few clues to who was responsible.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
The case went cold for years. But detectives in Maryland never gave up hope that one day her murder would be solved.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
Over the previous 30 years, Vicki's family had never given up hope that police would one day have the evidence to find her killer and bring him to justice. And the fact that her case was being reopened was welcome news.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
Whether that means becoming a victim's advocate, starting a charitable organization, becoming a police officer, or even going to law school, sometimes surviving can also mean thriving.
Anatomy of Murder
Justice Delayed (Vickie Lynn Belk)
But as we know, DNA science, especially 20 years ago, was not a magic wand. It took time, resources and expertise that were often in short supply. And that was the case in Maryland.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
Most people that knew Ernie saw a dedicated and hardworking young dad who was working two jobs to support his family. One at a wooden bat manufacturer and another covering the night shift at Little Caesars. But police also knew that given Ernie's past, he was not unfamiliar with the darker side of Titus County.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
But remember, there was a good reason to believe that Ernie knew his attackers, or at least they knew him. Because according to Samantha, they referred to him by name and to his father, Big Ernie.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
But there was no sign of Ernie or his kidnappers at either his father's home or grandfather's house, and neither was able to offer any clue to Ernie's whereabouts.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
Along with taking care of the kids, Samantha hosted a YouTube channel where she mostly posted makeup tutorials and beauty tips.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
But recently, her videos had gotten more personal and more popular as she shared details of her home life, her marriage, and the challenges of raising five kids.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
In fact, not long before she'd filed a complaint with local police after a recent argument, accusing Ernie of being physical with her. However, no charges were ever filed against him.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
But, you know, I'm sitting here listening to what she is posting on YouTube. You're still married, but you're talking about the difficulties in your marriage. Now, there's one thing to talk about things openly and try to support other people and this online community. But you also start to wonder, is she starting to paint a purposeful picture? And I don't know.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
Ernie's family often struggled to make ends meet, and it hadn't been easy in various ways, including when his dad spent some time in prison. So you can imagine how gaming could provide an escape from those often painful realities of everyday life.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
I think I can see this going both ways because we just don't know if her claims about Ernie, whether they were true or untrue.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
She took a nap. Not exactly what you'd expect from the grieving and traumatized wife of a man who had recently been kidnapped and who had five young kids in the mix, and not with her at present. Those kids alone, you'd think, and would hope would cause audible concern.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
By the time she was interviewed by investigators, Samantha once again found herself in the center of the spotlight.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
Up to this point, Samantha had denied recognizing any of the men who tied her up and abducted her husband. But now she was being asked to speculate.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
Samantha had met Sanford through her friend, Charla, and even knew exactly where they both were at that very minute.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
And from there, in response, Samantha started naming names, revealing that she may know one or more of the men involved in the abduction of her husband.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
As for Samantha, she was attempting to distance herself from Sanford and the assault against her husband. In this recorded audio, you can hear how quickly her demeanor has changed from being defiant, almost bored, to being this tearful, scared informant.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
At the sheriff's office, Sanford seemed to know that the jig was up and was surprisingly cooperative, quickly admitting his relationship with Samantha and the fact that he had been to her and Ernie's home.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
That's the voice of David Cauley, who in 2015 was a newly hired assistant DA in Titus County, Texas. His first year on the job would be what is sometimes referred to as a baptism by fire, as he would soon find himself embroiled in one of the darkest and most senseless crimes of his entire career.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
Sanford proceeded to lead the other men inside. But according to him, the planned beating quickly got out of hand.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
The three men put Ernie's unconscious body into the back of Samantha's truck. Considering the viciousness of the beating and the attacker's lack of mercy, the ending seemed inevitable.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
It was only then that detectives in Titus County could confirm that Ernie Ibarra was deceased and the cause of death was homicide.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
While in custody, Sanford and Ponce confessed to their roles in the crime, detailing how they, along with Rimes, coordinated and carried out the attack on Ernie Ibarra. So, you know, Scott, you have to kind of come back first to Samantha here. You know, is it possible that she's telling the truth, you know, from the beginning that she had nothing to do with her husband's murder?
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
But all I can think about when I even ask myself that question is like, why would these guys do this but for her?
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
But yet to me, it just kind of defies common sense, right? Like why they would do this but for her. But I definitely agree that her not giving it to investigators right away could absolutely, whether she's in it or not, could be partially thinking about herself, not only repercussions with the police, but at the hands of these guys.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
Samantha continued to deny having any role in the plot to kill her husband. But there was one thing she had not counted on, the digital evidence she had left behind on her cell phone.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
The masked men had dragged both of them from bed, beaten Ernie severely, and then abducted him from the house, all while their five children were sleeping just a few feet away.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
According to Sanford, the initial plan did not actually include the home invasion.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
Even after her husband was beaten, kidnapped, and shot to death, her cell phone records show that she made efforts to assist the perpetrators in concealing the crime, further proof that she was complicit in the murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
All four suspects would eventually be charged with aggravated kidnapping and murder, with Walford facing additional charges due to her role in planning Ernie's death.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
In two separate trials, Octavius Rimes was convicted and sentenced to 23 years for aggravated kidnapping in Titus County and an additional 75 years for murder in Camp County.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
During his testimony, Jonathan Sanford recounted the cold-blooded execution of Ernie Ibarra, all the while careful to blame Jose Ponce with pulling the trigger.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
Walford continued to maintain her innocence and ultimately decided to take a specific approach to avoiding blame.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
As for her motive, we can only speculate, but testimony from several witnesses revealed that this may not have even been the first time Walford had tried to put her plan into action.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
Multiple witnesses also came to Ernie's defense against her allegations of abuse.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
A jury found Samantha Walford guilty of murder and sentenced her to 99 years in prison on top of a 50-year sentence for kidnapping.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
His loss was made especially painful because it sadly also meant the loss of her grandchildren as well.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
Murder causes such pain in so many ways. Ernie Ibarra didn't have an easy start, but had landed in a place where he was happy, and all he wanted was to care for his family, his children, and work hard at his two jobs to provide for them. Rather than end the marriage, if that's what she wanted to do, his wife orchestrated his assassination.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
At the hands of his killers, she took Ernie from this earth and from all five of their kids. Their lives will be impacted forever. We hope that they are well and are being wrapped in love as they continue to heal. We will be off next week, but Anatomy of Murder will be back the following week with an all-new episode.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
The young mother of five described to the dispatcher what sounded like an incredibly terrifying ordeal.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
a brutal home invasion in the middle of the night while their children slept. It's a scenario right out of a parent's worst nightmares.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
The men then proceeded to drag a barely conscious Ernie from the house to Samantha's truck before taking her keys and driving off to parts unknown. Miraculously, the couple's children were left unharmed.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
It's no secret that people all across the world are spending more and more of their time online for all sorts of reasons.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
After confirming Samantha was not in need of immediate medical attention, officers asked her to describe the intruders as best she could. Mount Pleasant was a small town, and there was a good chance that the men, and her husband, had not gotten far.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
Her description of the men wasn't much to go on, and while typically officers would start canvassing the neighborhood, looking for both possible suspects and witnesses, in this case, that would prove difficult.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
And so in those first moments of the investigation, law enforcement just had Samantha's version of the events to go on. But even early on, detectives were starting to suspect that Samantha was not being totally truthful about what had happened. There was something off about her answers and her demeanor that didn't quite fit with an actual victim of such a horrific crime.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
there were other signs that also indicated that Samantha's story wasn't quite adding up.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
There was also the matter of how Samantha had managed to call her mother on her cell phone while she was still bound and gagged and why she didn't just call 911.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
And many can understand the appeal. Becoming an Instagram influencer or the hero in a video game can offer an escape from our normal lives, letting us become a very different version of ourselves with little or no repercussions.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
In the early hours of February 20th, 2015, 29-year-old Ernie Ibarra was awoken by masked men, beaten and then abducted from his home outside Mount Pleasant, Texas.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
But there was also something a little off about her behavior. And some details of the crime scene just didn't line up with her version of the assault. You know, Scott, there really are a bunch of things here that we can talk about. You know, one thing, the way the police right away were questioning about the entry.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
But I just thought it was so interesting that apparently these guys just come in and know exactly where to go. And it's not like we're talking about a one level, you know, three room house. Like they had to go up kind of an intricate entryway upstairs. But apparently they found their targets right away.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
And there is one other thing that we'd just be remiss not to mention is like her dialing her phone. Remember, they find her with her mouth gagged, yet you don't hear anything from the 911 caller. I think it was her mom talking about her voice being muffled or anything. It just seems like almost like a contortionist move, just bizarre.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
And then there was also this, which in some ways is the most disturbing of it all. The whole time she was recounting the details of her husband's violent abduction, she never once checked on her five young kids, who were all still asleep in their room right next to where the intruders had supposedly snatched Samantha and Ernie from their beds.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
Ernie Ibarra was born on Christmas Day 1985 in Mount Pleasant, Texas, a town about a two-hour drive from Dallas and not far from the borders with Oklahoma and Arkansas.
Anatomy of Murder
Behind the Mask (Ernest Ibarra)
So obviously, Samantha's behavior was raising some eyebrows. But for at least the immediate aftermath of this home invasion and abduction, at least until proven otherwise, she was still a victim. So investigators had to put her suspicious behavior aside and act on the little information that they had and the very real possibility that Ernie had been abducted and his life was in danger.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
You know, Scott, while everyone seems to already be tilting their head, you know, he happened to be the last person who actually saw Nikki. And then all of a sudden he's gone for a while. His statements, they don't seem to make a lot of sense.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
But as we know, it is far from being in a place that he could be charged or certainly prosecuted just because he is piquing their interest the more and more they learn.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Again... morally repugnant to be prejudiced against anyone for one reason or another. But his transphobia, what it does do, at least maybe, it might start to be providing a motive about whatever happened to Nikki. And even though they couldn't hold Bogdanov, the Vancouver police weren't about to let him out of their sight.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
It's also the seat of Clark County, where in 2021, a rookie prosecutor named Kristen Arno teamed up with veteran Colin Hayes to handle a case that not only captured worldwide attention, but that has had a lasting impact on their state's legal system.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
On the night he claimed to meet Nikki, Bogdanov's phone records showed him driving to Brush Prairie, a 20-minute drive north of downtown Vancouver, just as he told the detectives he had.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Larch Mountain is about 15 miles east of Brush Prairie and in the opposite direction of Portland. So if the Vancouver detectives were already suspicious about most of Bogdanov's story, now they had pretty good proof that he was lying.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Bogdanov's trans and homophobic comments had more than raised eyebrows. They provided a plausible motive for a possible assault or worse. But while his lies about his location were extremely suspicious, a secret trip out into the wilderness still didn't give police enough cause to make an arrest.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Without locating Nikki or other evidence that a crime had in fact occurred, the investigation was stuck at a standstill.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
That is, until a local man on a walk in the woods made a disturbing discovery, turning the search for Nikki Kuhnhausen into not just a homicide case, but a rallying cry for historic change in the state of Washington.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
When law enforcement responded to the scene, they discovered several items that suggested that the remains were likely those of 17-year-old Nikki Kuhnhausen, including rings she was known to wear and that she had been seen wearing on some of her social media posts.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
You might remember that large mountain where Nikki's remains were found was also the remote area where David Bogdanov's phone pinged on the night he admitted meeting Nikki Kuhnhausen. It was the connection that investigators needed to bring him back in for another round of questioning.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
At that point, the detectives arrested Bogdanov, and he was charged with second-degree murder and malicious harassment, a hate crime in Washington state.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
The high profile case was also Kristen Arnott's first trial as a new prosecutor.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
But there were still ways to build a convincing case against him and undermine his claims that he had nothing to do with Nikki's murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
It appeared that Bogdanov had actually fled the country just hours after his meeting with Nikki, which a jury was likely to see for what it was, a consciousness of guilt and attempt to avoid arrest.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
But as it turns out, convincing a jury that Bogdanov killed Nikki would not be as difficult as they thought. The real challenge would soon become what actually happened.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
In 2020, Nikki Kuhnhausen was a 17-year-old high school student who had a passion for makeup and hairstyling and dreamed of one day becoming a makeup artist.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
It may have come as a surprise, but it actually was something that Nikki's mother and victims' advocacy groups had feared. It is what has become known as the gay or trans panic defense, and it is predicated on the idea that an individual is somehow justified in actions taken in response to what is a perceived threat to their lives, namely the revelation that a sexual partner is gay or trans.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
And these are real issues for prosecutors and at trial. And I've encountered this defense more than once in the courtroom. You know, one case that quickly comes to mind, a defendant claimed that their own abuse as a child led them to panic when their victim supposedly made advances. And in that case, they were same sex. But I've also had cases.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
defendants who say that when they realized that the partner that they found out that they were trans and actually born a different sex than what they believe them to be. And I'll close by saying in those cases that the jury convicted both. But it was definitely a defense that you had to be worried that it might impact the jury or sway someone on the jury.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
So it needs to be dealt with, you know, head on from as early as jury selection if it's a defense that is viable, that is allowed to even come into court.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
And, you know, the National LGBTQIA Plus Bar Association, which is, of course, monitoring things around the country, says that this is a defense that they have seen work routinely because of bias against specifically trans people, because that's what we're talking about here. So these are fears that people that decide to be or are trans, that they are predatory.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
And obviously we know that isn't true. But again, as we know, Scott, this really had a lot to do with actual change in Washington state.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Nevertheless, the defense was still preparing to prove that in his encounter with a 17-year-old Nikki, Bogdanov felt that his life was actually in danger.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
In addition to public pressure, the prosecutors were in a tough spot with their case against Bogdanov. He had pled self-defense, which they did not expect, at least not initially. So Kristen and Colin faced a lot of unknowns right off the bat. And most mysterious of all, what would Bogdanov say on the stand?
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
But then Bogdanov's testimony veered from what he had originally told police. He had originally claimed that after Nikki told him she was a trans female, he had pushed her away in anger and asked her to leave his van.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
You know, Scott, so much of what he is saying just makes absolutely no sense. I mean, just the phone cord alone, right? He has it. It's around her neck and that it had already been in this loop. So that when he happened to put it around her neck, that it tightened and she died. I mean, that just, it makes no sense. And it, of course, defies physics.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
And it was a fact that was supported by conclusions made by the medical examiner.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
And with all that change, one thing Nikki could always rely on was herself. So when she transitioned in high school and began living as a transgender woman, she did so with confidence and flair.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Let's also not gloss over another fact that Bogdanov admitted he was armed and that he kept his gun in the car within reach. Another fact that makes it hard to believe that he would have felt that he was ever in imminent danger.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
the prosecution's strategy to disprove the defense's version of events that tried to cast Bogdanov as the victim and prove that Nikki's death was anything but accidental.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
As for Bogdanov's explanation for why he fled the country just hours after strangling Nikki to death?
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
The prosecution gave their closing arguments after two weeks at trial.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Bogdanov was sentenced to 20 years in prison, which in Collins' estimation was not nearly enough.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
The Nikki Kuhn Hasn't Act, or Nikki's Law, went into effect in Washington state just a month before Bogdanov's murder trial began. The law closed the loophole that might have allowed Bogdanov to plead he had a diminished capacity to control himself when he learned of Nikki's identity.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
As of 2024, 21 states have enacted legislation like Nikki's Law that bans the LGBTQIA plus panic defense. A bill to ban the defense has been introduced in the U.S. House of Representatives.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Nikki Kuhnhausen, a 17-year-old, was murdered. In some ways, that is where the case ends in all its horror right there. But of course, it makes it that much worse that it appears clear that Nikki was killed because of her identity.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
I think it's obvious that Nikki didn't have an easy life as a young child, and additionally that her gender identity would also likely have presented some unique challenges of its own, especially for someone as young as Nikki.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Whether a person supports, doesn't know how to feel, or even if they disapprove about a person's lived gender identity, I hope that we all agree that violence is always wrong. Nikki lost her life at 17. By all accounts, she was strong and proud. She should have had many, many more years to be exactly whoever she wanted to be. Tune in next week for another new episode of Anatomy of Murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Anatomy of Murder is an AudioChuck original. Produced and created by Weinberger Media and Fresetti Media. Ashley Flowers is executive producer. This episode was written and produced by Morgan Beattie. Researched by Kate Cooper. Edited by Ali Sirwa and Philjean Grande. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
So naturally, when Nikki's social media feeds went quiet on June of 2019, her mom had a feeling that something was not quite right.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
By that time, Nikki had made a habit of staying with friends more than either of her parents. But now Lisa couldn't find any friends who knew where Nikki was.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
The Digital Evidence Crimes Unit is equipped to use a person's digital footprint, whether it's their phone, computer, or even social media, to track a person's location. Unfortunately, according to friends, Nikki had lost her phone somewhere in Portland a couple of days before she went missing. So unfortunately, the unit couldn't access the wealth of information that a cell phone can provide.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
But Nikki was still a month shy of her 18th birthday, which meant she was a minor. And her mom was convinced that Nikki had not intentionally cut off communication or run away.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Three weeks later, Nikki's mom turned up what would prove to be some very useful information. Nikki had borrowed a friend's phone the night she disappeared.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Using that friend's phone, Nikki had logged into her own Snapchat account.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
There were over 19,000 homicides reported in the United States in the last year alone. But it doesn't take a true crime fan to tell you that some crimes or their sensational trials capture the public's attention more than others.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
And so, Scott, here you know some of the obvious questions for investigators and maybe her own family and friends. It's like, who was this person that she may have gone to meet? Was it a date? Was it—we know that, unfortunately, she had some narcotics going on in her background. So did it have something to do with that? All things investigators would need to look at and see if they could rule out.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
So for whatever the reason for meeting up with this at least supposed stranger, it did give investigators an important next step in the search for Nikki, a name.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Investigators even pursued warrants for his cell phone data, but like Nikki, the 25-year-old seemed to have vanished.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Then in late September, nearly four months after Nikki went missing, a detective finally got a response from Bogdanov on Snapchat. And Bogdanov said he was willing to meet with police, just as the detective had requested.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
But according to Bogdanov, the reason he had been unreachable for months was simply because he had failed to pay his bills.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Detectives believed that he was the last person to be in contact with the missing teenager, so they had been trying to find Bogdanov for weeks. What he said, and more importantly, how he said it, would provide investigators with their first big lead.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Bogdanov also claimed that his cell phone had been shut off because he couldn't pay the bill, which would explain why the police had trouble contacting him for weeks.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
According to Bogdanov, he'd been out bar hopping in Vancouver with his two brothers when he spotted Nikki walking down the street alone. Here is part of the recording of Bogdanov speaking with the detectives in the interview room.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
But even when a case sometimes starts to feel like a runaway freight train, with everyone from cable news to internet sleuths chiming in with an opinion, it is critical that those members of law enforcement and prosecutors stay focused on the facts, the evidence, and ultimately, hopefully, the truth.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
And then he claimed that after leaving Nikki, he and his brothers went to his sister's house in downtown Vancouver. And that's where he and Nikki exchanged their first messages over Snapchat.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
But instead, the adult and the minor teenager headed in the direction of his family's home just outside Vancouver. Whether he had expectations of a sexual encounter, he didn't say. But he did admit that it was here that their night took a dramatic turn.
Anatomy of Murder
Free To Be Me (Nikki Kuhnhausen)
Bogdanov repeated his version of that night for 20 more minutes until the detectives decided to end the interview and send him home.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
Now, there was also nothing in Nicole's past that indicated she was an irresponsible or abusive parent. No history of arrests, no calls to child services, nothing.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
And remember, according to both Nicole and Billy on the morning of her visit, Logan was happy and healthy, showing no indications that a child was in distress or that he had suffered a recent injury of any kind and a mom would have known.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
And keep in mind the severe nature of Logan's injuries. While sometimes a fatal ailment can go undetected and manifest themselves suddenly and fatally, head injuries as severe as Logan's, they would have been nearly impossible for the child to ignore or not show obvious signs of distress.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
When questioned by investigators, Billy continued to deny he had ever put a hand on the child intentionally or otherwise.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
As they stepped into a cluttered shed, investigators immediately noticed some things that didn't look quite right. Nothing obvious like a bloody murder weapon or smoking gun, but certain things that awakened the feeling in a cop's gut that something was wrong.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
To investigators, it felt like someone had hastily staged the scene in the shed to match what Billy had told Nicole and the police and cleaned up any other evidence that may have contradicted it.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
In fact, investigators found it strange that if Billy and Nicole both took off from their respective start locations to meet at the hospital, why was Nicole able to cover nearly five miles in those 13 minutes, while Billy only covered a mile. The only explanation was that Billy did not actually leave immediately after the phone call.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
Thankfully, the initial deputy had taken some photographs, and those photographs were compared to the photos later taken by homicide investigators.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
And when Josh says worst offenders, that would certainly include the rare, but not rare enough, instances of child murder.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
what appeared to be blood on the same mattress and pillow where baby Logan had slept. Were they just random old stains on a dirty mattress, as Billy would claim, or were they evidence of a murder?
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
But the scene inside the trailer held other critical clues as well. But these clues were not in the form of the items that were there, but rather things that were not there.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
And thanks to Billy's next-door neighbor, investigators thought they knew how.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
And I'd go as far to say that this was not just suspicious behavior. It was likely criminal, especially if there were items in that burn pile that belonged to Logan or were relevant to the investigation.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
Palaszczuk was a friend of the child's mother, someone she even described as a godfather-type person in his life. And while he did have a history of drug use, this was not a man with a record of violent crime or abuse. And yet, the evidence was pointing to the fact that he was somehow responsible for deliberately and brutally taking a seven-month-old baby's life.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
Palaszczuk was arrested and charged with the murder of seven-month-old Logan Atkins. After his indictment, he was taken to jail where he sat awaiting trial. And during that time, he did not exactly help his case.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
Now that the county prosecutors were witnesses to his escape attempt, a change of prosecution was in order, which is how Josh and his trial partner, Andrew Roundtree, got involved in the case. And they would have their work cut out for them because Palaszczuk was still determined to claim he was not responsible for Logan's death.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
The trial of the man suspected for killing Logan Atkins was scheduled to begin nearly four years after the child's death.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
What the prosecution did not have to do was prove why Logan was killed or even how. Just that Billy Palaszczuk and Billy Palaszczuk alone deliberately caused the infant's injuries that resulted in his death.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
So, Anasiga, I'm not allowing for a moment to suggest that anyone who commits a crime like this to get any sympathy, even if they have regret, if in fact all of the evidence bears out. But the legal system, I'm sure you can help with this, Anasiga, you can dig into it, does allow some wiggle room when it comes to what a defendant would be charged with.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
And if the evidence shows that the event wasn't completely preplanned, more of an in-the-moment decision to harm resulting in death.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
The word regret is interesting. You know, in some cases, the evidence in the cover-up is stronger than the evidence in what leads up to the actual crime being committed. Because that's when killers panic. And sometimes, like in this case, they try to undo what they've already done, realizing what just happened.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
The defense continued to claim that Palaszczuk did not cause the baby's injuries.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
And it was true that Logan's mom had admitted that Logan had incurred a couple of bumps and bruises around the house. But these incidents were described as minor and not indicative of a pattern of abuse or neglect. And the prosecution put people on the stand to testify to that.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
In 2016, Nicole was a single mom trying to make ends meet. And when it came to taking care of Logan, she often relied on the help of friends and family, including her mom who lived in the area and a good friend named Billy Palaszczuk.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
This theoretical delay between a catastrophic injury and showing a reaction like crying or falling unconscious, or in this case death, is what doctors called a lucid interval.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
In other words, the best evidence that this was not a lucid interval was that there was no proof that the child had been injured at any time before he was in the care of the man accused of killing him.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
But to disprove these alternate theories, the prosecution would have to rely largely on the testimony of the baby's mother, Nicole.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
In the end, Nicole proved to be a believable and sympathetic witness.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
There was Logan's blood on his mattress, a witness that saw him burning potential evidence on the day Logan was killed and the evidence that Palaszczuk had moved evidence and staged the accident in his shed. But ultimately, It was not one piece of evidence that would convince a jury. It was the entire picture.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
But while most people were preparing to enjoy the Fourth of July holiday, Nicole had to do a night shift, so she asked Billy if he wouldn't mind watching Logan for the night.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
And after deliberating for several hours, they returned a verdict.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
For Nicole, her family, and the entire community that had grieved alongside them, it was a righteous and just punishment for the gravest of crimes.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
Nicole admitted that after the trial and the murder of her son, she suffered depression and sunk deeper into addiction, even spending some time in jail herself.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
Logan's case has had a profound and lasting effect on the prosecutors as well. To this day, it serves as both a reminder of the cruelty that some people are capable of and the certainty of their mission to achieve justice for the most innocent of victims.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
Adesika and I discussed this case long before the decision was made for us to cover it, because we know these stories are difficult on so many levels. Some crimes are so horrific, so unthinkable, that people struggle to believe they actually could ever happen, especially when the victims are infants. But silence doesn't erase reality.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
AOM exists to tell these difficult stories because they do matter. These cases are not just statistics. They represent lost lives, families torn apart, and an unimaginable level of pain. By shining a light on these tragedies, we honor the victims, ensure their stories are not forgotten. It's not just about the crime itself.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
It's about acknowledging the heartbreak, the fight for answers, and the strength of those left behind. Some stories are hard to hear, but that makes them even more important to tell.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
But Nicole still had errands to run back in town. And so she had asked Billy if he could keep watching the boy for a few more hours. Hey, as we all know it, sometimes it takes a village.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
At about 10 o'clock in the morning, Billy decided to take Logan out and get a little babysitting assist from his own mother who lived just down the road. And so he put Logan in his truck and drove the short distance to his mom's.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
It's a call that every parent dreads. The call from the babysitter telling you that there is something wrong with your child.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
At the very same time, Billy puts Logan's tiny unconscious body back into his truck and speeds off towards town.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
But when the officer approached Billy's truck, he immediately realized that this was no ordinary traffic stop.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
Logan was eventually rushed to the local hospital, but there was nothing EMS or doctors could do to save him. The seven-month-old was pronounced dead less than an hour after Billy's call to the child's mother.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
Billy lived in a small mobile home on a property cluttered with old appliances and farm equipment. And next to this mobile home was a small wooden shed that for all intents and purposes served as Billy's garage.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
As you're well aware of, these crimes do happen way too often than we would like to believe. And the fact that these young victims cannot advocate for themselves is precisely why we thought it might be a good reason for us to highlight some of their cases here.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
This horse trough looked like a large galvanized steel tub or garden container that was about three feet high and about four feet long. According to Billy, he placed Logan into the steel tub with just a few inches of water at the bottom. Then he did what every caretaker is told never to do. He walked away.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
The incident is not unlike so many horrific stories of accidental drownings that can occur in any household with a small child. In fact, the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission says that every year, 90 children drown inside the home, and two-thirds of those occur in a bathtub.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
There was, however, visible evidence that the seven-month-old had suffered a head injury.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
In other words, Logan had died not from drowning in the tub, but from blunt force trauma to the head, which had caused his tiny skull to fracture and his brain to hemorrhage.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
On July 4th, 2016, tragedy struck in the tiny town of LaGrange, Texas, where seven-month-old Logan Atkins was rushed to the hospital with injuries he sustained at the home of a babysitter.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
The investigation and resulting trial would confront issues of child abuse, parental responsibility, and most tragically, the murder of an innocent child.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
The medical examiner concluded that Logan's injuries were likely the result of a recent and deliberate blunt force trauma. And Texas Rangers were called in to investigate not an accident, but a homicide.
Anatomy of Murder
The Caretaker (Logan Atkins)
which is why it was crucial to create an accurate timeline of events, including the verified whereabouts of anyone who had access to Logan for the hours leading up to his death, not just a babysitter, Billy Palaszczuk.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
But it wasn't just his strange reaction to the news of Michelle's murder that was turning heads. Before he had even returned to his home in Raleigh, it seemed Jason was already on the defensive.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
You know, it's an interesting thing. I think people's first reaction is, well, wait a second, if they ask for a lawyer, they must be hiding something. But, you know, my first reaction in reading this was literally like careful because as law enforcement, as prosecutors, you can't take anything adverse from someone exercising their right to remain silent, right?
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
And we do know that when people talk, if they're not telling the truth, they trip themselves up all the time. But also, you know, look, It could also just be exercising that right because they want a lawyer there to make sure there isn't something untoward by police, prosecutors, whatever it is. So it's an interesting thought.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
But again, I have to err on the side of caution here and just say that that is everyone's right. And while, yes, it's the optics that we just can't read into it, at least not yet.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
And as I've said repeatedly before, as a prosecutor, I like assembling all the various pieces of evidence that together hopefully give a complete picture. It can sometimes be even more compelling to a jury than a case relying on what witnesses saw and more compelling than a confession on its own. So not getting the cooperation of Jason Young here would not necessarily be a game changer.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
But there was one problem with assembling this puzzle, the forensic evidence. It wasn't really yielding the answers that investigators hoped it would.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
But of course, things don't always go according to plan, even for goal-oriented young women like Michelle and the most common cause, falling in love.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
But that's not to say that the presence of DNA elsewhere in the house couldn't contribute to the growing suspicion that he did in fact have a motive to kill his wife.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
But again, proof of infidelity and a suggestion of a potential motive does not equal proof of murder. What investigators needed was evidence that could connect Jason to the crime or crime scene itself.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
And it might not surprise some of you to know that much like the tire prints, the FBI actually keeps a database of the signature impressions made by a variety of different models of brand name shoes.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
And sure enough, on that receipt was a record of purchasing a pair of men's Hush Puppy shoes.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
The young shoe receipt was from the very same shoe store.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
And so far, they also had video proof that his alibi was pretty solid.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
That's when Richard discovered something very strange. Not all the cameras in the hotel seemed to be working that night.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
And the video footage that had once seemed to confirm his whereabouts the night of the murder was now opening a large hole in his alibi.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
Considering that police had not revealed the make and color of his car, this eyewitness account was already credible and promising.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
The cracks in his alibi were beginning to show. Search warrants for his internet browsing history would break them wide open.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
Jason Young's alibi for the night of his wife's murder was blown. His search history was sinister, and his shoes placed him at the scene of the crime.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
Unfortunately, even with that probable cause to search his car, police turned up no weapons, no bloody clothes, no bloodstains, nothing incriminating. Although, it was interesting that they also never found the clothes he was wearing in the videos from his Virginia business trip.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
It's the kind of sacrifice many mothers make all the time, putting careers on hold for the benefit of a growing family. But sadly, Michelle's act of selflessness and family-first priorities would have tragic consequences.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
And while the prosecutor does not have to prove a motive to prove someone is responsible for a homicide, it definitely would help if you could show a jury why Jason Young would act so viciously and kill his wife.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
But was it that relationship, or at least the relationship alone, that really motivated Jason Young to kill his wife? $4 million says it was likely only part of the equation.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
But like so many times before, Jason had somehow convinced or coerced her to do exactly what he wanted. But as a prosecutor, I'm thinking this reveals even more than just a motive.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
Jason had spent a lifetime of keeping up appearances, even to the point of convincing Michelle's own family that he had nothing to do with her death. But the mounting evidence was finally too much to ignore.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
You know, it's interesting. I think especially for people on the outside, you know, is it that there's not enough evidence or were investigators and prosecutors being overly careful? And a lot of times it comes down to door B or at least somewhere in between.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
You know, I always think about all those conversations in my office or in the supervisor's office in homicide that you're debating with detectives and we're often on the same page. Like, yeah, we have all this, but because it's circumstantial, we're just waiting for that one more thing that takes away what we— think might be the hindrance or the biggest hurdle in a case.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
But ultimately, there's that one thing you suspect, you believe, the evidence is growing, but it's not yet there. So it is that tough question, which is obviously subjective sometimes. When is it enough to walk into court, especially when a case is circumstantial?
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
And sometimes, again, it's us together, right, as we hammer out these cases, you know, whether it's you and me, Scott, talking it through or as a prosecutor with the investigators in these real-life situations in our offices. It's just sometimes we're just waiting for that thing that ultimately we're like, hey, it hasn't appeared. It's time to take our shot. And that's kind of what happened here.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
That delayed justice? As you can imagine, it was especially hard on Michelle's family.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
And basically with a civil case, that's not proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The burden of proof is different. It's a preponderance of the evidence. And the sentence is not prison, but monetary relief, often never collected.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
But families have definitely told me that they have filed them at least sometimes in part because they want to hear someone say that this person has been proven to have committed the crime.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
And soon afterwards, the prosecutor's office also charged Young with Michelle's murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
But as he had already shown for the last five years, Young would prove to be a formidable defendant.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
And you know what? It worked. His criminal trial ended in a mistrial with the jury deadlocked.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
Okay, a bit random, but not the strangest request in the world, especially for a close family that is used to being a regular part of each other's lives. And so at about 1.30 in the afternoon, Michelle's sister pulled into Michelle's driveway and let herself into the house.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
For Young's retrial in 2012, prosecutors were determined to take nothing for granted, and they even strengthened their case with new evidence, including a disturbing incident reported by a caregiver at Michelle's daughter's daycare.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
The prosecution painted a picture of a man who had researched methods of killing, had taken out extra life insurance on his wife, and planted an almost perfect alibi before ruthlessly carrying out his cold-blooded plan to murder the mother of his daughter and his unborn child.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
And he didn't seem to care whose lives he had to destroy to get it. His wife's, any of Michelle's family and friends, even his own daughter.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
And in fact, there was a really interesting detail that Richard described from the trial that I thought was really telling.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
Michelle's daughter is now 21 years old. The murder of her mother and the prosecution of her own father took up more than half of her young life. But the pain and trauma from that experience will likely last a lifetime.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
Michelle Young was murdered by her husband and her daughter. their daughter lost her mother. That little girl, now young woman, will never again be held in the arms of her mom, never have her mom to share her good days or her secrets, or be there in her times of need. And that is as brutal, albeit in a different way, as the violence Young inflicted on Michelle.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
He took Michelle's life and so, so much from his child. We remember you, Michelle Young, for the devoted mom you were and friend to so many. And to your daughter, we hope that she is still able to feel your love for her and your presence in her heart. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? I approve!
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
From her positioning, injuries, and the condition of the room itself, it was immediately clear that Michelle had been the victim of a violent attack.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
Thankfully, Michelle's sister located the young girl unharmed and hiding in her parents' bed, her first question, what's wrong with mommy?
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
Adding to the tragedy was the loss of Michelle's unborn child.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
It could be argued that being a parent is the most selfless job there is. Every day, the careers, the sleep, and even the personal safety of moms and dads everywhere are being sacrificed for the well-being of a child.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
But the gruesome scene left behind, it obviously indicated a brutal and violent attack, a part of which may even have been witnessed by Michelle's young daughter. It does seem clear that she saw the aftermath. So was this a result of a botched break-in? Or was Michelle the premeditated target of someone's homicidal rage?
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
Whoever killed Michelle also took their time, striking her in the face and the head repeatedly, perhaps with a fist and then some other weapon, and also strangling her. There was no mercy and no mistaking the intention to end her life.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
By every account, she was also a devoted parent and spouse. But according to those close to Michelle, the same could not necessarily be said about her husband, Jason.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
At first glance, he and Michelle had seemed like an unlikely match. The friendly, family-first cheerleader and the slick guy with a mean streak. But you know what they say about opposites.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
While a disgruntled husband would typically be an obvious person of interest in a homicide like this, investigators did have real reason to believe he was not involved because Jason was out of town, at least 150 miles away on a sales trip to Hillsville, Virginia at the time of the murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
Now, obviously, investigators were prepared to dig into his alibi more deeply before they could eliminate him as a suspect. But it's important to note that even Michelle's family members were adamant that no matter what issues the couple was having, Jason was no killer.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
29-year-old Michelle Young was born on Long Island, New York, and grew up in a large, close-knit family that valued hard work, loyalty, and above all, each other.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
In November of 2006, 29-year-old Michelle Young, the pregnant mother of a two-year-old daughter, was mercilessly beaten to death in her own home.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
According to friends, the couple had been having some marital trouble, and there were even rumors of Jason's infidelity. And while eyebrows will raise, to say the least, it doesn't make a murder suspect at least not on its own, especially when he was on a business trip 150 miles away at the time of the homicide.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
Jason drove to Virginia on the afternoon of November 2nd, and video surveillance footage showed him in fact checking into a hotel the night Michelle was killed and checking back out the next morning.
Anatomy of Murder
Double Indemnity (Michelle Young)
But in the frantic moments after Michelle's body was discovered, no one could reach him. Not Michelle's sister, not his mother, and not the police.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
But as you can imagine, police were curious if they would turn up any evidence at the scene that might contradict her statement.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
So this had all the makings of a classic and tragic love triangle, which meant that a motive for the altercation at the Walgreens parking lot may well have been coming into focus.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
On March 11, 2011, gunfire had broken out in a parking lot in Boise, Idaho. When the smoke cleared, two men had been shot. 41-year-old Rob Hall had survived. 30-year-old Emmett Corrigan had not.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
According to Candy Hall, she left her home around 9 p.m. to meet Emmett, parking next to his black Range Rover in the lot of a local Walgreens. Here's a recording from her interview with police on the night of the shooting.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
and just kind of looking around. As Emmett and Candy were driving back to the Walgreens pharmacy, Candy received a call from her irate husband, who had spotted Candy's car in the parking lot. Here's more of that interview with Candy Hall.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
It was clear from the beginning that Emmett was ambitious and eager to get on with his big plans for the future. In fact, he and Ashley had only been dating for two months before he popped the question.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
And when they returned to the parking lot, Rob was there waiting.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
At this point, Candy says that her attempts to de-escalate the situation failed, so she turned away and headed back to her car to leave.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
Candy's version of events painted Robert as a jealous man whose emotions might have spiraled out of control. However, she also claimed that Emmett was the aggressor in the confrontation.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
I mean, this is one of those things as prosecutors that we would, I mean, I'd probably use this in my opening and my summation, right? Because what Candy says, it's absolutely going to be admissible at trial. And here's your like legal trial evidence 101 for the day.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
It's called an excited utterance because she says it in the heat of the moment when she's still under, you know, that mindset of what is happening at that moment. And what she says clearly is pop, pop, pop. So you're going to have to look at it because it certainly seems that what she recounted during that call sounds like someone is intentionally firing multiple shots, at least initially.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
So I would go with the way that you ended that, Scott, with like, this is someone who is firing and then just maybe turn that gun on himself.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
And while firsthand witnesses can obviously be invaluable to a homicide investigation, Candy's relationship with both men meant that investigators would have to rely on physical evidence to verify her story. They can't know for sure if she's telling the truth or if maybe she was, I don't know, complicit in the murder or the cover-up, or maybe none of them.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
But now that this horror has happened, police have to consider if she is going to stick with the last man standing, her husband, Rob Hall.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
After a spring break honeymoon on the Oregon coast, Ashley went back to Utah State, a married woman. Their twins arrived during Emmett's first year of law school. The young couple was deeply in love, but as you can probably imagine, juggling books and babies is no easy task.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
One of the hardest things to face after she learned the truth about her husband's relationship with another woman was that she actually knew the other woman, Candy Hall. And while Emmett had described the older woman as just a friendly coworker, Ashley had always had her suspicions that there was something going on between them.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
On March 13th, 2011, investigators from Meridian Police sat down with Rob Hall. He'd been released from the hospital and now they were going to question him about the night of the shooting and try to get a clearer picture about what happened. Would he double down on what was sounding like an unlikely scenario or would he maybe come clean?
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
A trial was set for the fall of 2012, yet another painful ordeal to be endured by Emmett Corrigan's widow and their five young kids.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
The prosecution's case against Robert Hall was that he had gone to the Walgreens parking lot armed with a loaded, unholstered gun with the intention of confronting Emmett Corrigan. He had the motive, his wife's infidelity, the means, a loaded automatic handgun with a laser sight, and the opportunity, knowledge of exactly when and where to find his target.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
He also claimed that Emmett, who was younger and more physically imposing, had attacked him first during their argument, pushing him to the ground, taking the gun, and firing first, grazing Hall on the side of his head.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
Those tests proved that Hall was the only one who had fired the gun found at the scene. Rob Hall's DNA was also found on the trigger.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
Prosecutors also pointed to Candy Hall's own recorded statement in which she described the sequence of gunshots that she heard.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
But the medical examiner determined that Emmett's wounds to his chest and head were instantly fatal. So then the question is, who fired that third shot? The prosecution's theory, Rob Hall himself.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
Incredibly, a statement surfaced from a jailmate of Hall's that this may not even have been a spur-of-the-moment decision.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
And I agree that I really think it's the front end of this that is so telling. I mean, let's just look at this. You have Rob Paul going to the place that he believes his wife to be with the man that he believes she is having an extramarital affair with. He doesn't just go on his own. He brings a gun. He has the gun with him when he confronts them. You have Candy's quick response
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
rendition of the way that those gunshots are heard. Remember, she is saying that as the 911 operator is taking the call, as the officers are first responding. I mean, that is within moments before she has time to think or reflect or to make up like what might sound or what might help her husband at that point.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
It really does point to the fact that, again, whether he planned to go kill him or just planned to confront him and hurt him. And then again, in that heat of passion, which what that does, it's still a crime, but it takes it potentially from murder to manslaughter. It definitely seems to point much more in that direction just based on common sense than with what Hall is saying to police.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
And even after the initial confrontation in the parking lot, Hall still had time to de-escalate that situation if he wanted to, right? He could have simply left. Instead, he drew his weapon and fired more than once. And keep in mind, it wasn't just any weapon.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
Candy Hall did finally admit that she and Emmett were indeed involved in a physical relationship and that on the night of the murder, the plan was not just to drive around and talk as she told police.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
But in the end, Candy Hall came to her husband's defense, testifying that she had never intended to leave him and was committed to their marriage.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
It was clear to the judge and jury that Candy had changed her story. And so the veracity, the truthfulness of her entire testimony was thrown into question.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
On October 25th, 2012, Rob Hall was convicted of second-degree murder and sentenced to 30 years to life in prison.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
But according to Ashley, she had some reservations about putting down roots in Boise, a place where she knew Emmett had a long and sometimes troubled history.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
Incidentally, just two months after the trial, Candy Hall would be convicted of theft for embezzling $300,000 from a former employee and sentenced to 14 years in prison.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
Through her blog, her now multiple books, and speaking engagements, Ashley hopes to provide support for those dealing with grief, loss, and trauma, particularly focusing on widowhood and surviving infidelity and homicide.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
And we want to thank Ashley for being so candid about her experience with such a traumatic and painful event in her life, one in which she and her kids will always be coping and healing.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
What happened to Emmett Corrigan is awful. And yes, Emmett's infidelity was wrong, obviously. But Rob Paul's revenge? You don't get to take a life because someone did you wrong. Paul also took a father away from five children and a husband from a woman, Ashley, who still loved him very much and at least at the time wanted to try and make their family work and to get it back on track.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
Talking with Ashley for this interview struck me for many reasons. For the pain she lived through while she didn't know what was wrong in her marriage. And then to be hit head on with her husband's murder, his infidelity, and that the murder was at the hand of the husband of the other partner in the affair. Devastating.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
Yet even with all that, it is Ashley's openness and strength that stays with me even now. She made it back into light out of deep darkness. It is Ashley's goal to help others out of the darkness by sharing her experience. And for me, for us, that says so much about who she is. Survivor Strong. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? I approve!
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
After opening his own law practice, Emmett was working long hours, regularly staying late at the office. And with Ashley juggling five kids at home, the couple began to experience what many couples do, a growing distance between them, both physical and emotional.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
But by February of 2011, Ashley felt that there was something else causing a rift in their marriage. It was a rising suspicion that her husband was hiding something from her, that perhaps he was not being faithful.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
We've often said that our primary goal on this podcast is to advocate for not just the victims of violent crimes, but for the survivors as well.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
On the evening of March 11th, Ashley set Emmett down for a heart-to-heart, baring her soul in the hopes that Emmett would do the same.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
As Ashley recounted to us, she finally convinced Emmett to speak to a friend who was also a marriage counselor.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
At a little before 9 p.m., Emmett left. It was the last time Ashley would see him alive.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
One of the 911 calls was from a woman identifying herself as Candy Hall. And in the recording, you can hear her frantically begging for help.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
On top? Okay. Who shot you? Do you know who did it? Robert Hall had what looked like a graze wound to the side of his head, but was still conscious. Emmett Corrigan, lying just a few feet away, had suffered two gunshot wounds, one to the chest and one to the head. He was declared dead at the scene. Ashley Boyson would get the news about her husband just a few minutes later.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
Today's story is as much about its survivors as it is about the victim. It's about a mother and her then five children whose lives were forever changed by a deadly incident of gun violence. But for Ashley Boyson, the survivor's journey has also been about reconciliation, not only with the homicide, but also with the betrayal that led directly to that tragedy.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
The plainclothes detectives informed Ashley that her husband had been shot. News that was still almost impossible for her to process.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
That second bullet entered his skull, and I'm going to be pretty specific here. The bullet entered just inside the hairline of his upper right forehead, traveled in a slight downward and leftward direction through the entire right side of his brain.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
Hall was a 41-year-old former deputy and part-time salesman who lived just a few minutes away from where the shooting took place.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
Hall went on to describe how he then managed to wrestle the gun away from Emmett and return fire, striking Emmett twice, once in the chest and once in the head. He claimed that he acted instinctually out of fear for his own life.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
So was this argument over a parking space? A falling out between friends or business partners? To answer those questions, police would rely on the one witness that actually witnessed the shooting, Rob Hall's wife, Candy Hall.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
The first and most important revelation, these two men were not strangers. And this argument was not over a parking space or business. It was over her.
Anatomy of Murder
Something to Fix (Emmett Corrigan)
When police asked Candy if she and Emmett had a romantic relationship, she denied it.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
The conclusions did reveal DNA belonging to another person in addition to Kathy, but they couldn't get more specific than that. So investigators next decided to test that DNA against several previous old suspects in the case.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
And over the years, North Aurora wasn't the only police department taking advantage of the advances in DNA technology.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
In January of 1976, a 16-year-old girl named Pam Maurer was at a friend's house on a snowy night.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
When police arrived, they noticed something that got their attention. A rubber hose lying next to the body. They took it in as potential evidence, and it was determined later to be related.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
The autopsy also concluded that there had been sexual activity sometime shortly before her death. But there were no signs of physical trauma, which at the time often steered investigations away from the potential of sexual assault. Of course, now we know that sexual assault can occur with and without obvious signs of physical injury.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Some victims may struggle and some may react in the opposite manner. sometimes by freezing or even becoming passive out of absolute terrifying fear or shock.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
And so what happened to Pam Maurer, the case just sat like Kathy's for decades.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
But then, just about five years ago from now, investigators decided to take another look at Pam Maurer's case.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
The evidence in Pam's case had fortunately been, and in some ways miraculously been, preserved for decades, including a pair of jeans that had a yellowish stain on the pocket. Investigators thought that it looked consistent with semen.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
The DNA was put into a federal database, but they didn't get any matches. So investigators decided to try a novel approach, genetic genealogy, which is becoming more popular. So Lyle Police decided to look there.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
And Ryan actually has some crossover with our very own Scott Weinberger, but not in the way you might be thinking.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
But in his late 20s, Bruce Lindahl became known to authorities. He had died, but it wasn't straightforward. The story caught the eye of investigators in Pam's case. Bruce's death, they realized, may not be the end of his story.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
In a twist of fate, Bruce Lindahl severed his own femoral artery during the attack, and he bled to death at the scene, dying while committing the murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
And Scott, you know, you and I have seen and talked about multiple times that it really is not that uncommon for someone to be injured when they are specifically stabbing someone because they are in this frenzy, but certainly to bleed to death themselves, that is not the most common, to say the least.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
A woman had ridden her bike to the Northgate Shopping Center. If that location sounds familiar to you, it's because it's the same shopping center where Kathy Hawley had worked.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
When a neighbor finally answered, the young woman frantically explained what had happened. She described her attacker as having haunting, bright blue eyes. The homeowner immediately recognized the person she was describing based on the eyes as his neighbor who lived just a few doors away, Bruce Lindahl. And Lindahl then was quickly arrested and held on the assault, but was soon able to make bail.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Two years passed without anyone knowing what had happened to Deb Colliander. Then in 1982, her body was found in a farm field about 15 miles south of North Aurora. Her death was ruled a homicide.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
There was also a photograph of Lindell himself. It turned out he looked strikingly similar to the photograph generated by the DNA phenotyping in Pat Maurer's case.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
In January of 2020, 48 years later, the Lyle Police Department announced they had identified Pam Maurer's killer. It was Bruce Lindahl. Their discovery triggered what's called a critical reach.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
There were more than a few similarities between the homicides of the two young women. Both Pam and Kathy were killed in a similar manner, within a 20-mile radius from each other and within a few years from one another.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
The investigation team at North Aurora decided to send Kathy's evidence to the lab, the same lab that had found Lindahl's DNA on Pam's evidence. Perhaps they would find the same DNA on Kathy's clothing. the main method used for that DNA collection at the lab was swabbing.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
The solving of Pam Maurer's homicide had given renewed hope to Kathy's investigators. So the inconclusive testing was a real letdown.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
It also mentioned Kathy's case, despite the fact that there was no conclusive evidence or court determinations, but it tied Lindahl to Kathy Halle's murder. The film put North Aurora investigators in an awkward position, especially with Kathy's family.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
While this was unfolding, Ryan attended a continuing education course, a requirement for his work as lead homicide investigator. During that course, Ryan had a lightbulb moment.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
It sprays a sterile solution and then vacuums it back up, collecting any DNA particles and fibers along the way. It can be more effective than the swabbing method, which is more regularly used for DNA extraction.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Years later, when he began working in investigations, there was one case he was already familiar with. That's because it had been an open case unsolved for over 40 years.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
But testing Kathy's evidence would be far from simple.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
It was decided that despite the high chance of failure, testing the evidence in Kathy Holly's homicide case was important to try. The MBAC system, which would be used, might be the one thing that could overcome the degradation of evidence collected and preserved in this case.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
And he's like, hold on. The police department was committed to testing the evidence, but they needed a cost-effective way to do it. You know, that is one thing, Scott, that obviously if we think about it, people will get it. But I don't think that everyone necessarily thinks about it right away that, you know, you actually need the dollars to be able to spend to do some of this work.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
And that is something that specifically smaller departments come up against all the time.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Ryan then reached out to nonprofit organizations, one of which was in fact established by the Audiochuck Network.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
The next hurdle Ryan faced was related to CODIS, which stands for the Combined DNA Index System. It's an FBI tool that enables forensic labs to exchange and compare DNA profiles electronically.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
It took extra work to make sure the testing would be CODIS eligible. Once that had been worked out, there was one last logistical hurdle, getting Kathy's evidence down to Deerfield Beach, Florida, where the specific lab was located.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
What happened to Kathy wasn't just another file in the drawer or on a shelf. It was the story that every officer knew, a reminder of justice still delayed but not forgotten.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
They were all risks that Ryan and his team weren't willing to take. So for them, it left only one solution.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
they eventually made it to the lab and signed the evidence over. The lab estimated it would take between six to eight months to complete the testing.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
And then they waited and waited. 14 months passed before any word came back from the lab.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Ryan heard his phone ringing and looked down. It was the DNA expert he had been working with. Even though he was up in the mountains on vacation, he picked up the phone. She had gotten the results back.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
The moment of confirmation was deeply memorable, not just for its significance to the case, but to the answers it would finally bring Kathy's family. The results were brought to the local prosecutor and Kathy's case was officially marked closed.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
For Ryan, solving Kathy's murder had always been about giving her family the answers they had been waiting for for so long. Kathy's parents had been growing older and their time to get those answers was running out.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Ryan and another detective who had spent years on the case alerted Kathy's family that there had been a major development. her parents and three siblings gathered together for a meeting.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
As Ryan sifted through the fading pages, he began to piece together the details of Kathy's life.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Lindahl's interest in Kathy had likely begun before that night. They believe he had seen her on one of his many visits to the shopping center and had discovered where she lived. Lindahl had likely staked out her apartment complex and waited for the right time to attack.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
In a case where no courtroom justice could be served, Ryan hoped that the answers would at least bring Kathy's family a measure of peace.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
The new information also gave Kathy's then-boyfriend, who had been with her the night she disappeared, a sense of closure as well.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
For Ryan, closing Kathy's case was both a personal and professional milestone, a reflection of why he became an investigator in the first place.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Her sister worked at a grocery store at the center. The pair often relied on each other for rides back and forth between work and their apartment about a mile apart. On the night of March 29, 1979, it was Kathy's turn to pick her sister up from work. She said goodbye to her roommate about 9 p.m. and headed out the door on her way to her car.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
can endure. Over the years, Kathy Holly's family has chosen not to be involved in media accounts of her story. We are told that they listened to some episodes of AOM and then gave their approval for Ryan Peete to be involved in this episode. That means so much to me and Scott.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
It's the very best validation that we are telling these stories with the victims and survivors in the forefront of our minds and that our mindset is clear by the way these cases are conveyed. Thank you to the Hawley family for allowing us to share Kathy's story and the work done on her behalf with this AOM community of listeners.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
As evidenced by their comments almost daily, their empathy and care is what you would hope for from people learning about the many victims of homicide week after week. Kathy Hawley, Pam Maurer, Deb Colliander, and Charles Huber, all victims of the same predator. We remember you each today, along with your families and loved ones who still grieve. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? No!
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
No!
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
The family called around to Kathy's friends and boyfriend to see if anyone knew where she was. But nobody did. Next, they tried to piece together her evening.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Early the next morning, the family reported Kathy missing.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
It was Kathy's car, which was still parked on the opposite side of her apartment complex.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Around the same time, another member of the family search party was looking around the apartment complex. The buildings were two-story structures with low, flat roofs.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
It contained Kathy's identification and other belongings. The purse appeared fully intact, not rifled through or strewn about. It seemed almost like someone had tossed it from the ground below.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Various items were observed and collected, including some quite personal in nature.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Kathy Holly was officially entered into the police system as a missing person. While the blood was being processed, the investigation into her disappearance kicked into high gear. As part of that, police set up a perimeter around the apartment complex and began interviewing everyone they could in the hopes of finding witnesses.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Some crimes raise more questions than answers. leaving families, friends, and entire communities trapped in the limbo of uncertainty.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
However, there was some information gathered by police as part of their neighborhood canvas that piqued their interest. One of the residents of that apartment complex said he had witnessed something strange around 9 p.m. the same night Kathy went missing.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
In hindsight, the description painted a grim picture. But when police went back to the neighbor to follow up what he had said, his story changed.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
It seemed like a warning and an acknowledgement that someone knew he had spoken to police and wanted him to stop. The End
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Rumors swirled that he was driven by a guilty conscience. Despite the gossip, police again ruled him out as a suspect. For weeks, they continued to comb the area around Kathy's apartment, looking for anything that might aid them in finding Kathy and figure out what happened.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Kathy's family was still also actively searching the area. Her father, who worked for the Federal Aviation Administration, brought a unique resource to the search—airplanes.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
The intense searches went on for weeks.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
The woman was fully clothed, wearing a coat and shoes. Kathy's disappearance was still fresh in people's minds, so police called her father down to the morgue to see if the woman was Kathy.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
And we do want to warn you that the description is unsettling and may be triggering for some. Kathy's face and neck showed signs of a violent struggle.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
her death was officially classified as a homicide.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Although pieces of potential evidence were being gathered, the investigation faced a major roadblock. None of it pointed police to a suspect.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Investigators work to uncover that truth, and in a case like this, to hopefully transform lingering questions into definitive answers. It's a role that requires determination and persistence, qualities that Detective Ryan Peete embodies.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
And so the case sat. Weeks became months, which became years, and eventually decades.
Anatomy of Murder
Waiting for Answers (Kathy Halle, Pamela Maurer, Deborah Colliander, Charles Huber)
Then in 1984, a scientific breakthrough changed everything. A British geneticist developed a technique called DNA fingerprinting. The method allowed scientists to isolate and identify variable elements within a DNA sequence. This made it possible to link DNA evidence to a specific person with unprecedented accuracy.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
As his obsession with this one particular model grew, he began lavishing her with gifts, things like expensive lingerie.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
In December of 2018, Grant's family finally staged an intervention, insisting that he seek treatment for his internet and pornography addiction.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
Today's story brings us back to Florida, to a homicide case that unfolded very quickly in January of 2019, but left a community stunned by its disturbing details and bizarre motives.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
At home, Chattamata installed an internet monitoring system to keep Grant off the computer. But even then, his compulsion to be online proved to be too strong, and soon Grant was sneaking away to use public Wi-Fi to reconnect with his overseas paramour.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
And just sidestepping for a moment because we're really talking about internet addiction. According to the American Journal of Psychiatry, internet addiction is apparently a common disorder that soon merits inclusion in the textbooks. It's a diagnosis in the compulsive-impulsive spectrum disorder. And here's what it always will include.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
There's basically three subtypes, excessive gaming, sexual preoccupations, and email text messaging. And they all share the following four components. And I thought this was really interesting. One, excessive use often associated with the loss of sense or time or neglect of basic drives. Two, withdrawal, including feelings of anger, tension, or depression when the computer is inaccessible.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
Three, tolerance, including the need for better computer equipment, more software, more hours of use. And lastly, negative repercussions, including arguments, lying, poor achievement, social isolation, and fatigue. And Scott, that certainly seems to check off the boxes of what we're hearing about here.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
And as we know, with many types of addictions, one of the unfortunate things that often come with it when you need that money is that you use all the money you have and you need more. And so there are other things similar. We hear this with narcotics addiction all the time, that that also comes with other things like stealing, breaks with reality. And then family members don't know what to do.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
And here we know that the family did not involve the police. And that just comes down to most often a parent's love.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
And that was around this time that Grant's brother Cody had expressed to his girlfriend that his youngest brother's increasingly erratic behavior was starting to get frightening. And he even feared for his family's safety.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
An angry and increasingly unstable young man in a house full of guns. It was a dangerous combination and it might have proved deadly. According to Cody Amato's girlfriend, on January 24th, his father had finally issued an ultimatum to his troubled youngest son. Grant had to move out. The family would no longer tolerate his obsessive and criminal behavior.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
Now, the troubling backstory on Grant's relationship with his family was still in the process of being fully uncovered in the hours after the discovery of the murders. But just his absence from the scene made it imperative for law enforcement to locate him.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
The fact that he was at a hotel by the airport was already a clue that Grant was demonstrating the behavior of someone on the run. So police approached carefully, more than aware that the 29-year-old was likely desperate and probably armed.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
The answer to that is no. In fact, like many, he admitted that when he first became a lawyer, he was afraid of public speaking and actually terrified to be in court. But it was a fear he knew he eventually had to conquer.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
But I will say, and of course, it's never one size fits all, he also doesn't behave like someone who would have just learned that both his parents and his older brother had just been murdered, a fact that was not lost on investigators in the room.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
Grant tried to establish an alibi for the day of the murder, but both the information he was providing and the way he provided it, they just weren't that convincing.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
Considering Cody had never shown signs of depression or self-harm behavior, it was at least on its face a pretty unconvincing and even outrageous suggestion.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
But Grant's suggestion did support the theory that staging a murder-suicide was indeed part of the killer's plan to get away with the homicide.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
Horrific pictures of his own father in a pool of blood on the kitchen floor, his brother curled up in the room off the garage, and his mother, the woman who tried so hard to save him from his own demons, face down on her desk. Photos that would be disturbing to anyone, let alone a family member.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
But in the interview room, they were met with a blank stare and then a half-hearted attempt at genuine emotion.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
And of course, investigators cannot use a person's silence against them. But if a person is confronted with something that awful and shocking, sometimes a glaring silence, at least out of the courtroom, can start to feel like a tacit admission of guilt.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
But while the circumstantial evidence against him was substantial, including his history of conflict with his parents, his financial motive, and his lack of a strong alibi, there still wasn't any direct evidence to either tie him to the crime scene or disprove his alibi.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
And this is another one of those examples where sometimes the pace of criminal justice can seem frustratingly slow. But as a prosecutor, I can tell you it is crucial to first gather enough evidence and also to manage the ticking clock between arrest and trial.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
It's also where Chad and Margaret Amato had raised three sons. two of whom, Cody and Grant, were still living with them in their large, well-appointed home in horse country. The father, he was a pharmacist.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
According to the arrest affidavit, Grant Amato's response was that his family had been blaming him for ruining their lives, stealing and not following the rules of their home. So he might as well, quote, be blamed for this too.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
So essentially, the prosecution was still collecting evidence in the immediate lead up to the actual trial. Not uncommon at all. But here it was also trying to gather the pieces of evidence that might prove pivotal in that trial. So talk about a ticking clock.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
There was even disturbing evidence that hours after he had returned home, Chad Amato's fingerprint had been used to access his bank account. The implications? That his son Grant had pressed his dead father's finger to his phone to access his money. It's almost too horrible to imagine.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
But it wasn't all digital forensics that was pointing to Grant Amato's guilt. Because just before the start of the trial, investigators finally made the most important discovery of all, the murder weapon.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
Their sons, Cody and Grant, who had both pursued nursing degrees at the University of Central Florida, also aspired to careers in the healthcare industry.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
The gun that had disappeared belonged to a friend of Grant's, and its ammunition was a match to the projectiles found at the crime scene.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
So given both the physical and circumstantial evidence collected, what did the prosecution believe happened on January 24th, 2019 at the Amato home?
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
Just to stop for a moment here, the wonders of technology never cease to amaze me. Just think about this, Scott. Your watch or your phone can now accurately paint a picture of not only your day, but down to the path you walk and the number of steps you take.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
It's amazing and here so helpful for law enforcement and prosecutors as they tried to piece together what was happening on the day of these homicides.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
And the picture it paints is just so truly awful. After killing his father, Grant Amato then spent another several hours alone with the bodies of his murdered parents, attempting to access their banking information.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
Dominic pointed out to the jury that these were the actions not of a grieving son, but of a guilty man.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
During the sentencing phase, Grant Amato was spared the death penalty. Instead, he will spend the rest of his life in prison without the possibility of parole.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
But that morning, no one had heard from him. And both his girlfriend and his co-workers were getting increasingly concerned.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
But even in his confession, Amato showed a disturbing lack of remorse and a refusal to accept the full responsibility for his actions. He made it sound almost like he was a martyr.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
He even managed to record video messages from prison for the object of his infatuation.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
And so we should endeavor to stay vigilant against the false connections that lure us away from the people we love. and treasure the very real connections that keep us together.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
From what I know, Internet Addiction Disorder is not yet recognized as a mental disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, or as we call it, the DSM, 5th edition. It's almost like the Bible on the subject of mental disorders. My guess is that that may soon change and it probably should be included.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
I think it's fair to say that almost anyone hearing about this case will be baffled by the lengths someone went to for an Internet fantasy. but it's the incredible criminal tragedy that really impacts me most. You have a young man who lost touch with reality and the people that actually loved him, his family. He lashed out at them rather than embracing their care.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
As a result, Chad, Margaret, and Cody Amato were murdered by Grant Amato, their son and brother. Margaret and Chad Amato tried to protect their son as they watched him slipping away into a screen. His brother Cody also tried to help him as he watched his brother stealing so much from him and their parents, money they had all worked very hard for.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
The healthcare community mourns the colleagues that they lost. Their family and friends will never be the same. Jason Amato, the oldest son, is now alone and I'm sure in some ways will never recover. And I hope all of us who have now heard their story will never forget it or them. Tune in next week for another new episode of Anatomy of Murder.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
Anatomy of Murder is an AudioChuck original produced and created by Weinberger Media and Fresetti Media. Ashley Flowers is executive producer. This episode was written and produced by Walker Lamond, researched by Kate Cooper, edited by Ali Sirwa, Megan Hayward, and Philjean Grande. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
Now, because this is a well-being check in response to a legitimate concern about Cody, there was a sense of urgency and the police had an obligation to make sure everything was okay.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
The deputy soon moved into the kitchen. He found the body of Cody's father, 59-year-old Chad Amato, in his work clothes, and he was laying on the floor in a large pool of blood.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
Also discovered near Cody's body, a 9mm handgun, as well as several spent shell casings scattered amongst the three victims.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
Given the location of the gun found at the scene, one of the possibilities was a murder-suicide. Perhaps Cody Amato had shot and killed his parents and then retreated to the garage and taken his own life.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
We live in a world of instant messaging, group chats and an endless scroll of images that gives us a window into each other's private lives. So in many ways, we know more about each other than ever before. But even still, sometimes it seems that the more connected we all are, the farther apart we all feel.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
In other words, the gun found at the scene, it was not the murder weapon. It appeared that the whole scene had been elaborately staged.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
The fact was that Chad and Margaret were devoted parents and well-liked members of their community. Margaret was an avid horseback rider, while Chad was a lifelong caregiver and provider.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
In other words, these were not the kinds of people that were known to attract trouble or would have found themselves the targets of such a carefully staged execution.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
According to Jason, there had been escalating tension between Grant and the rest of the family that had recently reached a crisis when it was discovered that Grant had stolen a considerable amount of money from both his parents.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
An obsession that had siphoned off over $200,000 of his parents' money, landed him in rehab for internet and sex addiction, and had caused irreparable damage to his relationships with his family.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
29-year-old Grant Amato was the youngest of Chad and Margaret Amato's three sons. And for most of his life, he had tried to keep up with his brother Cody and his parents' high standards for success.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
But in 2018, things began to go off the rails when he was dismissed from his job following some very troubling accusations.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
And to me, it's also just somehow even worse when we're talking about doing something to people that are already patients because they're already more vulnerable than someone else. So of course you talk about drugging anyone, our reaction's going to be the same, but it just seems even more, I don't know, sinister, the idea of whatever his motivation.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
I think that your first question is very likely it, right? This doesn't seem like something that he's trying to ease someone's pain. But again, if you keep them asleep longer, then you have to do less work.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
The incident marked the beginning of a downward spiral. With no job, no prospects, and no social life to speak of, Grant Amato found comfort where many isolated young people do—
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
I'm sure there's plenty of parents out there that can relate to this. A kid who seems just glued to their screen at all hours playing games with strangers. But with Grant, it was ultra extreme.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
And while the jury is still out on just how dire this crisis is, the fact remains that obsessive internet consumption can have very serious effects on people's behavior and their relationships.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
But what he did find was an escape, an anonymous fantasy world where he could be anyone he wanted to be and where he found all the things that he felt he was lacking in the real world, respect, success, and eventually even companionship.
Anatomy of Murder
67 Steps (The Amato Family)
And we're not here to judge what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes, even their parents' homes. But here's the thing. Watching these live streams, they cost money.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
And in fact, there were some of Yvonne's own friends that said the tension between her and Jack had finally come to a head.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Safe to say if she wasn't a person of interest before, she certainly was now. But soon enough, Mary Jo is able to compose herself and an excuse for her strange behavior.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
In that answer, it directly contradicted what Yvonne's kids had told police. Remember, her daughters had overheard Mary Jo and their mom talking at the door.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
In 2020, Holly Wood-Webster was a new prosecutor suddenly thrust into a very old homicide investigation, the 1985 murder of Yvonne Menke in St. Croix Falls, Wisconsin.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
So this is a small town, and Jack Owen and Mary Jo Luntzman are both in the horse business and have known each other for years. It's not unthinkable that they would have interacted in the days before Yvonne's murder. But given the rumors about their ongoing relationship and the tension between Jack and Yvonne, it did raise suspicions that Mary Jo could be hiding something.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Which is more than a little creepy because it kind of suggests that she was either watching them or somehow knew when Jack and Yvonne had plans to go out. And according to investigators, these mysterious phone calls to Yvonne's house were backed up by phone records.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
So let's just talk for a beat about alibis. In this case, Mary Jo did provide details of where she was during the time of the murder. She said she was at home doing chores. But from an investigator's perspective, a solid alibi is one that can be verified, either by a witness or even digital evidence like a cell phone ping or credit card activity.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
And in this case, Mary Jo provided none of that, just her word.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
And on top of that, Mary Jo also admitted to police that she owned a gun that matched the caliber of the bullets that killed Yvonne.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Investigators asked Mary Jo's permission if they could collect the boots and have them analyzed.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
It's not great, but if I'm part of the defense, I'd quickly point out that Mary Jo is surely not the only person in the world that owns that particular brand of snow boots, and I'm sure the investigators in this case knew that too.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Yvonne was a kind, quintessentially salt-of-the-earth Midwesterner, known for her warm personality and dedication to her children, even when that meant working long hours at multiple jobs just to keep food on the table.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
But as Holly pointed out, there was another way they could narrow that down. Because remember, those prints, they were really, really small.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
But as the investigation went on, Yvonne's family became more and more convinced that Mary Jo must have had something to do with this homicide. And all those calls and rumors that once seemed harmless, they now seemed more like warning signs of a coming disaster.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Julie thought the call sounded like it came from a payphone, another bit of lost technology from the past. But unfortunately, that would make tracing the call in 1985 nearly impossible.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
And unfortunately, that singular focus on finding the murder weapon, it had a devastating impact on the investigation.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
And without the gun or a witness who could ID, not to mention DNA or other strong physical evidence, prosecutors in 1985 were just not convinced that they had enough to charge Mary Jo Lundsman with Yvonne's murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Despite their persistence in urging law enforcement to keep working on their mom's case and their strong suspicions that they knew who killed her, Yvonne's children were forced to carry on with their lives knowing their mother's killer had gone unpunished.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
At least in their day-to-day, as best they could. But the loss of their mom and the unresolved questions surrounding her murder would have a deep and lasting impact on their family.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
She was up early for work. It was December 12, 1985, which, being winter in Wisconsin, was a typically frigid morning.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
For nearly 40 years, the 1985 unsolved murder of Yvonne Menke hung like a dark cloud over St. Croix Falls, Wisconsin, and Yvonne's family.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Incredibly, Mary Jo Luntzman was still living in the area. So imagine Mary Jo Luntzman's surprise when investigators phoned her at home. Here's a portion of that call.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
And you never know, right? Shake the tree and see if anything new falls out. But it was clear that the now 80-year-old Mary Jo was not ready to change her tune.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Yvonne headed out the door of her apartment and down the enclosed exterior stairwell up the building, which led directly to the parking lot on the ground floor.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
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Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
She would have plenty of time to contemplate her decisions and actions in the brutal murder of Yvonne Mankey. But immediately after the verdict, it was clear that one thing she did not have was remorse.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Impact on Yvonne's family was immeasurable and certainly worth the wait. But a case like this also leaves a lasting impact on a prosecutor as well.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Murder has many motives, never a good one. But often things we can put a name to, jealousy, greed, anger, revenge, this one seems to capture all those. To this day, the senselessness and cruelty of homicide are things I still struggle to understand. How can one person choose to end the life of another and just not care? Yvonne Menke was a mom raising her kids.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
a woman forging her way in the world and a friend to many. Her daughter was waiting inside their home to see what story her mom was about to tell. And within an instant, that story and every other interaction they should have had for many years to come was over. Justice for Yvonne meant that a prosecutor had to take a chance and try a very circumstantial case.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
That the many years that had gone by showed that was likely never going to get any better. And that's what the Polk County DA's office and Hollywood Webster chose to do. You weren't forgotten, Yvonne. And to the many people out there waiting for some accountability in a courtroom, let Yvonne's story be your motivation. And Yvonne... That means part of your legacy is giving hope.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Tune in next week for another new episode of Anatomy of Murder. Anatomy of Murder is an AudioChuck original. Produced and created by Weinberger Media and Fresetti Media.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
This episode was written and produced by Walker Lamond. Researched by Kate Cooper. Edited by Ali Sirwa and Philjean Grande. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
I'm Anastasia Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Julie struggled to make out a description of the person who appeared to be fleeing the scene. But there was no mistaking the overwhelming sense of menace and dread.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Yvonne's injuries were so grave that she was actually lying in a pool of her own blood. She appeared to have suffered severe traumatic injuries to her head.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
How long is too long to wait for justice? Four months? Four years? Four decades? For victims' families, balancing the demand for accountability and the deeper need for healing can be a long and traumatic process.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Investigators at the scene noted that Yvonne's purse, car keys, and car all remained untouched, suggesting the motive for the attack was not a robbery.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
It suggested that the shooter was not behind Yvonne, but lying in wait at the bottom of the stairs. In other words, this was no chance encounter. This was an ambush.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Despite the cold weather, Yvonne's body temperature when police arrived confirmed her daughter's story that the attack had occurred within the hour, which meant the killer had a head start, but not a big one.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
And if you're wondering how you use molten sulfur to cast a mold from a boot print in the snow, you're not alone.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
Promising, but it was still not a ton to go on. And unfortunately, Yvonne's daughter was not able to offer many more details about the person she saw fleeing the scene.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
According to Yvonne's kids, Jack Owen had been the source of considerable drama and heartbreak for their mother over the years since their parents' divorce.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
What went on between them in the hours before that ambush was a mystery that just might hold the key to solving her murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
But this being a tight-knit community, there were some ideas about who. According to her children, Yvonne had been romantically involved with a local man named Jack Owen for years.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
When is it okay to stop searching for someone's killer? Our answer is never, but sadly, it's a question many survivors have to ask. And their answer is personal and unique to each family or individual.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
But to those in the know, Jack and Yvonne's relationship was not always the picture of stability. Jack had a reputation as a playboy, and his relationship with another woman was a frequent source of friction between them.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
So obviously, investigators were keen to interview Jack to both size up and secure his alibi for the morning of Yvonne's murder.
Anatomy of Murder
Boots in the Snow (Yvonne Menke)
When asked about rumors of a romantic affair with Mary Jo Luntzman, he was equally defensive.