Amanda Carpenter
Appearances
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Yeah, he was my chief of staff in the cruise office. I worked very, very closely with him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Well, holding the line always leads to discussions of government shutdown, which, you know, we've learned many times. And, you know, Donald Trump hasn't necessarily been hurt by government shutdown. So I don't think... I would rule that possibility out. That said, just for, you know, interesting political dynamics, where's Elon Musk and Vivek when you need them, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Like, weren't they supposed to be tasked with finding the spending cuts that we're going to need in the future? Like, this would be the time that they should be recommending them to Congress. And so if I were Chip Roy,
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
My question here, if I were Chip Roy, I would... I would be thinking about saying, well, hey, Elon Musk signed up to have spending cuts. And so I look forward to having a meeting with him and finding the biggest cuts possible to do this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I would try to be enlisting him into this because the reality is they want to have this fake congressional committee spending commission to make cuts to programs they don't like to hurt people that challenge their interests, right? That's actually what Elon wants to do. But Bring them into the fold. Right. Like you signed up for this, Vivek. Like we need this many cuts to make this work.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Let's let's go. You know, the Democrats should be similarly like calling on them. Like, where is it? Where is it? Because. We do need to find a way to get to reality earlier on. And if this just becomes an endless process of kicking the can down the road, having a reconciliation bill where we don't pay for any tax cuts, which has happened numerous times before, it doesn't really get anywhere.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And this is the question of what actual policy wins do Republicans expect to achieve with Trump? And I think that's a very big, big, big open question. And what was funny to watch earlier this week, Trump went to the Hill to meet with Senate Republicans and people talked to the press after and said, oh, you know, the aides, I guess they were kind of upset.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Well, Donald Trump didn't give us any guidance about whether we should do one big, beautiful spending bill or a lot of different spending bills, which is the better policy and is more hard to do, but it actually does result in a better process. It's like because he doesn't care. He doesn't care. They would love if you listen to Larry Kudlow and the others.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
They just want a big bill, just like the Republicans and Tea Party people have traditionally criticized the Democrats for doing, doing a big bill where everyone has a gun to their head, where they have to absolutely pass everything and a massive, reckless, unsustainable spending bill or get nothing at all. I mean, those dynamics have not changed.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And a bad Massey sometimes. And like, I still, I feel the same way about Rand Paul. Like Rand Paul pushes some really great policies sometimes, like with emergency use and abuse and that kind of stuff. But then, you know, we just got to find a way to keep them on that. Like, listen, like you believe the debt is out of control. You have to do something about it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
He's done it before. Chip has done it before. They've done it before.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Yeah, so this is something that I've been contemplating, and I expect to launch a newsletter through Protect Democracy. We have a free newsletter. Please subscribe. It's called If You Can Keep It. But the biggest challenge we have ahead is, number one, distinguishing between what are real threats and what's just noise, right? Like, you know, I wrote a book.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
That's a great Bible verse. I like that one. I like that one a lot. You know, it's remarkable. I mean, Michelle Obama notably didn't show up at all. Apparently, she told the press that she had a scheduling conflict while she's on her extended vacation in Hawaii.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
God, it was 2018, Gaslighting America, Why We Love It and Trump Lies. And we know, just because we've lived in Trump's America, how he deliberately manufactures chaos to create confusion, to polarize people, to give himself operating distance and create opacity between himself and the press. so that nobody can really understand what he's up to and that all accrues to his benefit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
So that's like the first layer task. But the second layer task is that He's going to have immense power. He expects to use it. So how do we focus on the things that really do matter in a productive way? And so what me and my colleagues at PD have been talking about is, okay, well, what is the most important thing that we can do going forward?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And we've sort of landed on the idea that it all revolves around protecting electoral competition in the future. Like we need the ability to compete. And I'm not talking about us as, you know, protect democracy, but the greater we, you know, everyone who engages in politics, how do we compete effectively in 26 and 28? And that really isn't a task that should be left to the candidates themselves.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
at the last minute to organize campaigns per se. I think we can see that evidence by what happened with Kamala Harris, because you really need much more infrastructure at the front end. And the biggest threat that Trump poses is entrenching power, expanding reach to sideline opponents. That essentially is what everything... It's preventing urbanism.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
The authoritarian playbook is all about sidelining opponents when you look at the end game of it. And that's all for the purpose of staying in power. This is why autocrats don't leave power. And this is probably one of the most you know, controversial things that we talk about, that JBL talks about, the idea that Trump will install himself into power and never leave. And that is a very real thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
That is what autocrats do. He ran for three, for president in three consecutive elections and is back now. And maybe if he doesn't stay in power, he doesn't seek a third term, the odds are that he will play as kingmaker and call the shots behind the scenes and continue to play that role.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And so everything that we should be looking at should revolve around finding ways to maintain a level playing field. I think that is the biggest threat. It's Trump entrenching power. And so we have to find ways to fight for that level playing field. So what does that practically mean?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Number one above all, it's protecting the civic space, our free speech rights, the right to report, the right to speak about things. Because if you lose that, if they are successful in suing critics like Olivia Troy to bully her into silence, if they are able to shut down Liz Cheney because of what she did to speak out against January 6th,
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
you are not going to have the ability to organize a campaign.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And so this can take a lot of different forms, but protecting the space to speak is, wherever that comes, is critical. And next step to do that is protecting individuals and organizations who are targeted because they challenge the administration.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
This is where the idea of you fight to protect Liz Cheney, not because she's Liz Cheney and you like her, but because if they realize they can take her down with these meritless prosecutions and such, they're going to go after other people. So you fight on the first ground. You fight to defend those first targets.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And I think along the way, that can have a unifying effect that helps the organization, that helps the campaigns, that helps the candidates refine these pro-democracy messages in a way that are relatable to the public and not just speaking about it in abstract terms. And that is how you get along to the business of winning elections and along the way, making sure that you are protecting elections.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
the rights to free and fair elections, because electoral competition, this doesn't just mean, oh, we can go have a vote in November, 2028, because there's a lot of authoritarian regimes where people have the guise of elections. They're just meaningless because the public already lost the ability to muster any meaningful opposition in the buildup to them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Yeah, but I mean, what Karen did there, I mean, it is pretty remarkable given the pressures in that room. I mean, obviously she knew every eye was trained on her, every camera, every photographer there. And she just sat there, which is, you know, it's a small act, but that is a major act of defiance, especially given the way her husband is.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Yeah, I mean, this gets into the question, which I think is important for everyone in this space. So knowing that, you know, if you agree with my thesis, if this thesis that is developing, that protecting electoral competition, all those things that go with it are the most important thing. How do you distinguish between what are just normal policy disputes that are politics as usual,
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
and things that actually fundamentally threaten the future of fair and free elections and electoral competition. So let's take Kash Patel, for example. It would be within the purview of a new FBI director to come in and say, the president campaigned on stepping up drug enforcement, and I have a plan to go after these drug cartels, and allocate a bunch more resources to do that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Like, okay, that is a normal policy. They are entitled to advance that. You may have political disagreements with it, but that's within the bounds of what an administration is entitled to do in terms of like policies.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
That is much different than Kash Patel coming in and saying, I have an enemy's list and I am going to essentially harass them, use taxpayer resources against them for the purposes of sidelining them as political opponents. and obstacles to our power, right? Like those are two different things.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And being able to tell the difference amid all the challenges that we have coming, I think is going to be absolutely critical in terms of maintaining a productive means of prioritizing the threats.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
There's different roles for different organizations, different people, different sectors of civil society. A lot of this is silly, but yeah, like, should we let this go? But okay, part of maintaining that competitive electoral profile means not waiting until 26 and 28.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
My sort of question, which is outside my lane at PD, is where are the platforms that the Democrats, because we only have a two-party system, we only have two options essentially in every ballot, right? What are they doing to foster and cultivate talent in order to be ready for that moment?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Mike Pence jumped up, shook his hand, you know, did the, you know, I'm a sober, responsible person thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And what that should mean is where are the events and things happening where people can have answers to this and say things like, okay, you want to go to Greenland? Like, show me how much it's going to cost. Like, come back and put the burden, the burden of Trump was sort of something I'm thinking about. Like, put the burden back on Trump. He throws all kinds of stuff back out there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And I was inspired, you know, listening to you speak about this the other day. Say, okay, bring me the proposal. We have out-of-control debt. You can't pass a tax bill. You want to go buy Greenland? You think that's a great idea? But that isn't the ground we necessarily fight on. But I always look back to how did the Tea Party movement... gained such power. It did not happen overnight.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
It happened over a long period of time with all these conferences and events where people were constantly testing out messages and giving speeches and testing their appeal, right? And I just don't see that happening. Why can't the Democratic primary for 2028 start to begin right now? We didn't have one last time because we waited, everyone waited to the last minute. What are you waiting for, guys?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Yeah, there was a... A lot of interesting body language there. What was it with George Bush tapping Obama on the belly? It's sort of like, thanks for taking one for the team guy. But you know, I've read there's a lot of people upset that Barack Obama and others didn't have more of a Karen Pence type act of defiance against Trump. I am not sure what the right thing to do
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Here's how I see it. Protecting the civic space is a duty, you know, as you mentioned, the lawyers and things like that, but protecting that space also means taking it up, right? Like, you can maintain a level playing field, but if you don't have people on it as active participants in the game, what is the point?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Is there, I mean, are you really going to, like, stage a fight at Jimmy Carter's funeral? No.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And so this is something, you know, I am very delighted to see that Sarah is putting a big, bad, bold goal of getting a million subscribers on the free list for Bulwark, because that's sort of what it's going to take. Like, We all know traditional media is dead, right? Cable news ratings are absolutely dead. in the basement because nobody gets their stuff there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
So go to where the audience is, right? Take up that civic space to communicate with people. And like free media is the media, it's YouTube, it's TikTok, it's all those things. And I don't know why, like, it's just, it's so odd to see that people are still resisting what is so obviously happening. You know, you always find these like consultants and things like that. Well, we need new messengers.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
We need new messages. No, like just go have conversations where people are at. Get on YouTube. And I, you know, it's hard to do. And I really commend Bulwark, especially for being so pioneering because it is hard to do and to show up. But a lot more people need to be getting into the free media space now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And finding ways to, I mean, it's not going to be profitable to be able to pay to give people that information in that way.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I mean, isn't it more likely that John Jr. is just scouting out properties for another Trump hotel? Like, isn't that the most probability?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
But when it comes to, like, having a political answer to this sort of stuff, I mean, it is – I've got to say, watching – Watching Don Jr. go on this trip to Greenland while California is burning, right? California is burning to a crisp.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And we know that Donald Trump has explored the idea of withholding wildfire funding for previous California wildfires because he didn't think the voters there were sufficiently supportive. What in God's name? Like... This is where I'm talking about, like, why aren't the Democrats starting to campaign?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I don't say campaign now, but can't there be a big event to say, hey, guys, do you think climate change is real now? I mean, I know this is not the exact moment to do that. But someone isn't that like what is staring us in the face? And we don't have any answers, any solutions. Then maybe Don Jr. wants to build a new hotel in Greenland that he can flee to.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
What, Elon's going to do to spaceship to Mars when the planet burns down? This kind of seems like obvious stuff. Maybe not right now because it is so horrific. But I am kind of, I am flabbergasted. That, you know, there's split screen coverage of everyone losing their home. And, you know, what's Trump going to do next? Is he going to buy Greenland?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
It's just such a jarring thing where, you know, we are living in different realities and we need to fight to have some kind of shared vision of what is going on and what threatens us.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Yeah, I mean, the rush of anticipatory obedience from people, I mean, Elon was obviously first in line to place all his bets on Trump and get the biggest, fattest seat at the Mar-a-Lago table possible. You see that followed with Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos, and others. And maybe that's just more obvious in a way then we see the other people lining up behind Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Like everyone's offering to get their hand in the till and pay for his inauguration. The ridiculous $15 million defamation suit, the ABC news settled while they're like, you know, laying off people left and right, no longer engaging in the news gathering business. That's all happening. And yeah, that is what you see in countries where you have to essentially be in with the leader and,
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
and engage in that form of corruption in order to preserve your business interests, right? Like it is in many ways an act of self-preservation. Some people are more eager to do it than others.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
But aside from that, what you were talking about made me think about one of the other challenges is how do we do our job defending democracy, protecting spaces without defending or apologizing for the status quo? Right. I think that's the trap that Harris and Biden and others fell into.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And saying that you want to protect institutions doesn't mean that they're perfect in knowing and explaining and understanding the difference between what is real reform and what leads to ruin is complicated, but necessary.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Yeah, not with healthcare, not with education, not with climate, not with, it's a lot of things. Sure. And saying that, you know, everyone is fine and the economy is up, so therefore you have more money on your paychecks. It just, that doesn't translate to people without pensions, without the stock market, et cetera. So, yeah. Bad politics. That's like a whole other thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
It's going to be healthy to hang out on the MSNBC.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Yeah. I mean, it's going to be tough. No doubt. I don't expect I'm going to tune in to watch it live. I'll see the pictures. I do want to read the speech and, to see how he approaches the second term.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Yeah, this is part of it. Like he he gets his moment. He won. He gets to have the big ceremony. He gets to march down the avenues. All the pictures will be in Melania. All the media coverage is going to be glowing. Right. Because they want to give him that sort of sweetener coming in. I don't think I'm going to be able to watch it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Yeah, I kind of felt like you could see the conflict in Trump's mind in that clip that he knows being buddy-buddy is bad for his street cred, right, with the MAGA base. But this is actually what he wants. He wants to be in the president's club. He wants to be the guy that is acknowledged and respected at the White House Correspondents' Dinner.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
You know, people who are in the political opposition, don't let them see your tears. Don't do it. Don't do it. Tune out, protect your mental health. This is going to be a long slug and you're going to have to have the energy. Don't burn it now. This is all, it's going to be a week of sugar cane coverage. Let it happen. You can't stop it. This is not something to stop.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
It's not something to fight over. There are going to be big issues down the road. You know, that's why I've worked with my colleagues to develop a framework on distinguishing what really matters and what doesn't. And him getting his in the picture in the paper with his hand over the Bible and everyone smiling, isn't it?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And he kind of, in some of the pictures, really looked, I mean, honestly, for the first time in a long time, it looked like he was enjoying himself. Yeah. which is weird to have that amount of enjoyment at a funeral. But I do think this speaks to what really motivates Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
In the second, if Obama was ever going to put himself in this position, it seems like he's taken himself out of it for the indefinite time being. If Obama started giving speeches, started supporting candidates, started becoming active in public life in a way that posed a challenge to Trump's authority and power, Trump would flip like a dime again.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
But the reason why I think he can be buddy-buddy with Obama, I'm not speaking to Obama's side of it, is that Obama is no longer an obstacle to him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
It's uncomfortable to see them all getting along together. I probably would have done what Michelle Obama did is just not go at all. That's probably not the right thing. The right thing is probably what Karen Pence did. I mean, what do you do? Do you ask for separate seating arrangements? Sure. You know, Obama, Bush.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Thou shalt sit next to all former presidents according to... Anyway, these fuckers.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Yeah, here's my read of the situation. Number one, good ruling. Number two, bad that it's only 5-4. Number three, this is helpful in going forward if I'm looking for the silver lining, and that it further draws a line between immunity for official acts, which is broad and alarming, and and personal acts, right? Like this is a new world that we're in.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
The Supreme Court has ruled that Trump and any other president has immunity for official acts. What this further clarifies is that he cannot get away with everything There is a line here. You can't pay a porn star to cover up information to further your campaign. That is not an official act. Okay. So now we do have some kind of line. Again, I'm looking for silver linings here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Yes. And so while we are all rightly concerned about the broad immunity ruling... we also should be careful to cling to what constraints we can have. And we will need to further define what can be personal acts from official acts, but things to further his campaign and further his political interests I think we can feel comfortable drawing a line there and fighting for that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And also, we should remember that this broad immunity does not extend to other people in the White House outside of the president who may carry out official unlawful orders. Now, this is somewhat nuanced because Trump does have the pardon power, which we fully expect him to exercise in pardoning January 6th rioters coming up here, but that would be another step there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And so as he goes into his second term with all of these plans to expand his power and stamp out independence at federal agencies, that immunity does not apply to everyone at the Department of Justice, to everyone at the Department of Homeland Security, at the Department of Defense.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And we should be very clear about that and make that distinction known to everyone who is entering that administration.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I am inclined to think and I'm saying think because I don't have enough information to fully believe this is true. And maybe it's just kind of what I'm hoping. is that recognizing the fact that these judges are political actors, are they essentially sort of hiding behind Justice Barrett and allowing her to take the hit?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And I don't believe this extends really to Justice Thomas, but she forecasts that she believed in drawing this distinction earlier on. And so did they just have a pretty good understanding that Roberts and Coney Barrett will take the hit on this and they will make sure that it was a 5-4 decision. And we can essentially vote no and get all the kudos from MAGA from it that accrues, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Like this is like kind of, you know, voting no is always the safest thing if you can get other people to actually do the policy work that you know is better for the country. I'm wondering if, maybe I'm hoping, if that is actually true. part of the dynamic on the Supreme court, you know, there's a lot of five, four decisions that allow people to take the easy way out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I mean, it's just that it's just hard to hear. Right. It's hard to sit with this stuff and find encouragement and motivation to keep going. But that is what we have to do. And I want to be clear, when I'm drawing these distinctions about the path that we can fight on going forward, I am certainly not happy that the path has become so narrow.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
But I think we should be realistic about that is what it is. And we do have some footing to go forward on.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
No, it needs to get out. I mean, we're going through these machinations now, but I cannot imagine that a document of this significance with all the people that have access to it, especially Biden with the, as JBL has pointed out, he enjoys the same kind of official immunity that Donald Trump will.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Put it out. Put it out. Or what? You're going to say because Judge Eileen Cannon said no? It is absurd. Put it out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
By the way, can I just say something? Liam Donovan was so good. He was so good at explaining reconciliation. People should save that. It should be taught to incoming Hill staffers. I just great, great guest. I really enjoyed it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I hope you don't say that about me on future podcasts. She's really good at this subject, but she's actually super annoying.