Aaron Levie
Appearances
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
and digital gold, all of those things can actually kind of make sense and be a bit rational and improve things. And then, unfortunately or not, depending on your views, there was this other sort of fractal event that happened, which was, oh, let's also use these things as a means of kind of creating a virtual currency and equities and tokens for anything, where that then runs into
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
basically the sec remit of like are these things securities or not and is there insider trading or not and can anybody issue them at any time and promote them on twitter or not and so so you know i think to some extent if you get back to like crypto 1.0 which was like this is a this is a financial infrastructure i think you would have avoided a lot of the the sort of noise and challenges with with crypto now i don't know you can't put the you can't put it back in the bag
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
But, but there's like, I don't think you could get 10 crypto people to agree on how you regulate that second category because some people, some people believe I should be able to issue an NFT on anything and I should be able to trade that.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
And, and, and at the same time, they would obviously, they would sort of claim, well, that's just the same as a, as an aftermarket, you know, a seat to a concert. And yet another group would, would be treating this as, as effectively, you know, a security. And so I don't know how you're ever going to reel that in without some people being upset, you know, within the crypto community.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
Sorry, did I already get rotated out based on? Well, yeah, basically.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
Our roads were really bad back then, though.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
Aaron might be there. Aaron, where are you going for the holidays? Oh, actually, we'll be in **** next week.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
Just at the hotel.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
two just quick thoughts. One, Patrick Carlson had a tweet yesterday that basically said this sort of this, this big misinformation kind of created by, by people that want to be slow is that you, you have to sort of choose two of fast, good and cheap.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
And, and I think basically, you know, Elon's companies have sort of always effectively kind of proven the opposite, which is, which is actually, if you just like start to ask the question, like, why does that thing have to cost as much? You know, if you're building a rocket or designing a car or developing batteries, like why, you know, if you just do ground up, why does it have to cost as much?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
And so so it's interesting is that that probably if most people looked at what the government was spending on, they wouldn't even feel like like, you know, it's not even helping them in the disaster relief sense of, you know, I think like that. There are probably actually people that actually do experience the benefits of disaster relief.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
It's actually just all of the overhead that we've created to getting anything done in the government that could actually make the government better serve all of the constituents. I was talking to you know, sort of a nameless individual in the government the other week, where by Congress, they have to hire contractors to do work.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
And the contractors, the contracting firms charge them two and a half times the sort of cost of an individual employee that they could otherwise hire. And so now they have to outsource the work and they don't have any accountability mechanism for that contractor. And so I think there's not a single American that could look at that and say, this is like actually working well.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
Yeah, we are spending more money to do less. And the ultimate outcome is actually lower quality. And so so you have to at some point just kind of do a little bit of a reset moment. And that's obviously the upside of Doge is like, it's like, it breaks every rule of us thinking about how, how you would actually go and attack this problem. We thought you'd attack it through meetings.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
You know, it turns out if you didn't get crushed during the post-COVID period, you can just keep cranking. So that's what we've been doing.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
And we would do it through congressional, you know, sort of processes and research. And it's actually just, it is, you know, obviously a much more sort of founder startup oriented way to approach this. There's gonna be lots of things that are broken glass around the edges. There's no question. But I think what's interesting about this week's event is,
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
I think that there's been this underlying kind of notion of like, you know, Elon and whatnot at all, you know, don't understand the government enough to be able to change it. And it might actually be the case that the government doesn't understand Elon in the sense of like, he will just see this thing through.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
And the tools at his disposal and Doge's disposal is sort of, you know, completely unprecedented in terms of the ability to put anybody in Congress on notice if you know, if basically they are promoting things that are not making the country better. So the thing that we saw this week was actually that playing out.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
Everybody's been wondering, well, what are the actual, you know, what are the formal mechanisms Doge has to accomplish and enact change? And it's like, you just saw it. Like they can just create enough visibility and spotlight on the problem that it causes a level of discomfort in supporting moving forward with whatever that thing is. And so I think it's interesting.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
No opinion on the actual elements of the bill other than from a process standpoint and a new kind of case study of how this is going to play out is I think we're seeing some early indication of what Doge will be able to do.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
I mean, so to give some credit, you know, you have Ro Khanna supporting it. You have Fetterman supporting it. Bernie Sanders, you know, everybody. Yeah, Bernie Sanders had a good call out for Elon. You have everybody has their thing in the government budget that they don't like. So assuming that they see that as something Doge can contribute to, you could probably get actually broad support.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
You know, there's a classic, you know, sort of reflex within within probably Democrat Party on at this point, just because of Elon's support of Trump. That if something is an Elon project, they're going to instantly respond no matter what the thing is as a negative without kind of actually saying, does this actually support actually something I do agree with?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
That's going to be true of both sides. Michelle Obama was like, let's get kids healthy. And all of a sudden, now it's in vogue to do that. So I think we're just in an environment where anything will become partisan.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
What's interesting is that because of the, you know, some of the cross-party elements of Trump and now his cabinet is it might pull in more of the Democrat Party than would usually happen. And I think because of Elon and the people that are surrounding Trump, you probably have a bit more air cover for the Rokanas of the world to also step up.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
Because if it was like Steve Bannon and Trump doing Doge, it would be like, okay, maybe this is not the thing to lend credibility to for pure political reasons. If you have some of the best entrepreneurs that are out there actually literally in the cabinet driving this, at some point, it is an IQ test if you're on board or not.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
Centrisex. Based on what you guys were just talking about before this recording started, I have no idea what we're in for.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
There was a brief week in 2021 where the thought kind of crossed my mind. Yes.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
This is this is sort of not not the part of politics I think about as much. So I'll leave that up to you as the other left leaning moderate.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
We have a very sophisticated audit committee that prevented the action. Will you do this for me? Yeah.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
We just did a convert, so we're probably $600 or $700 million.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
No, I mean, I can't add that much more to this. I think there's probably a little bit of a disconnect at times from the, let's say, the voting public and broad constituents from then those that have sort of seen this in real life being inside of a company having to do a startup and scaling up and just the perverse incentives to build bigger teams, spend more.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
Your project then is more important the more dollars it gets. We have all of these systems in place, which is the stuff that gets attention are the things that you spent more on.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
So you have all these weird incentives to actually have your thing literally cost more, to have more overhead because you've brought in more contractors into the project that then you're going to get some kind of future benefit from in some way.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
So you have a lot that is sort of fully broken in this and there's no – it's hard to imagine any other way to veer off from that path other than something that does shake things up as much as Doge is doing.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
I'll just throw out one more thing on this because I think the branding of Doge is often the efficiency side, which people always go to the spend side. But the corollary to that is the regulations that obviously are expensive to maintain. And that's what creates layers and layers of overhead on reviewing everything that's coming in then to the government.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
And, you know, unfortunately, we have great examples in California where literally we spend more to do less. And it's because we've ratcheted up these layers and layers of regulation. And I have friends literally doing climate tech.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
In climate tech, you couldn't imagine something more probably left-leaning Democrat that they can't actually get things done in California, the state that you would imagine to be the most kind of climate-first friendly state because of the amount of regulation that prevents them from getting things done.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
So, you know, there's actually this like, you know, total combination of actually fewer regulations. You'll spend less money in government. You'll actually grow the economy faster, which will create more jobs. Like all of the things get solved, the more efficient you get, you know, kind of writ large on all of the topics.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
Can I just get one more random example? Feel free to edit it out. Chamath, you'll like this because it came out of Meta. Have you followed the Z standard compression library from Meta? No. So this open source library, kind of a next gen compression on data. And we finally, it took us probably too long, but the team worked insanely hard, implemented this compression algorithm.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
We literally, our uploads and downloads got faster. we spend less money on networking and compute. And it took some re-engineering of the system. But that's just not a concept that people go into problem solving with, which is like, what if the thing actually was cheaper to run and it was better?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
And so think about all the systems of government that could just be upgraded and then you would spend less money actually maintaining them. I mean, we spend... you know, hundreds of billions of dollars, way too much on legacy infrastructure, technology. We could automate more. You could spend way less money and then get better outcomes. So this is just happening everywhere.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
And I don't think people realize the scale of the opportunity.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
No, no. Jump the fence. This is... That was all crazy pills when I just heard. There...
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
I think there's like 10 higher psyops you would do if you wanted to get us to have a collapsing economy than going after drone deliveries. What would they be? Well, first of all, I think you'd have AI do a robot. I like conspiracy corner. I think you'd have a robot AI thing that runs amok. That's a good idea.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
Robocop. Yeah. Yeah, I think that would be way sooner than you worry about food delivery.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
I'm liking Geiger these days. Oh, you're into Geiger.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
Geiger Capital is good. I read them all. PC Braggs? PC Braggs? I think the nighttime thing would be, it would be at least typical of this government to do a Streisand effect of of just like, maybe if we cover it up, nobody will see. And then obviously it's the biggest thing. So yeah.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
Gary Gensler said he's super happy. I'm going skiing. That's enough. I'm going skiing. I thought it was cool how he read the entire congressional bill earlier.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
J. Cal loves to filibuster.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
I think it's a strong pick. So... Let the genuflecting begin. Go for it, Aaron. So Crypto, I'm a little bit indifferent on. You know, I haven't, you know, we haven't spent much time there, leaned in much there, but on AI... I think is a very strong pick. And I think you want somebody that has a general deregulation, anti-regulation bent at this stage in the evolution of the technology.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
I think there's risk of slowing down too much progress right now. And I think he'll provide some good... parameters and principles around how to avoid that. So I think very strong. And then crypto, again, don't know too much about. And then we'll see the rest of the topics.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
I mean, we have a very similar model as what Shma said, which is we're agnostic, so we work with multiple AI vendors. But I think a friend deep in AI land a couple years ago, right before ChatsBT, said there's no secrets in AI. And I didn't totally understand kind of at the time. It hadn't registered what that meant.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
But very quickly, it kind of became obvious, which is the research breakthroughs sort of propagate insanely quickly across the AI community.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
And so back back to this Moss framework, if you just think about it as if the research effectively becomes open at some point in time quickly enough, because either the researchers move or people publish it or whatnot, then it really is a compute game and then maybe a data access game. And that means that there's four or five at scale players that can that can fund this.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
And I think as we've seen in other areas where it's an infrastructure play, you eventually have the underlying service. With enough competition, you have the underlying service eventually trend toward the cost of the infrastructure. So what we should expect is that the price of a token in AI land, you know, basically will be whatever the price of running the computers are.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
And maybe with like a, you know, plus 10, 20% margin.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
Let me give you a fun stat. We give our customers unlimited storage. We have 82% gross margin. So what happened was the price of the underlying storage has gone down by hundreds of times since we started the company. And then all our value is in the software layer on top of the storage.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
So we've benefited by this incredible, just ruthless competition between Western Digital, Seagate, other players that are just trying to pack more more, you know, basically more storage density into these drives. And every couple of years, they have a new breakthrough. We're now, you know, upcoming, we're heading toward maybe a 50 terabyte hard drive.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
When we started the company, they were kind of 80 gigabytes.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
Yeah, so back in the day, if we had 10 people in engineering, 80% of them was doing pure infrastructure work. Now, if we have 1,000 people, it'd be inverted in terms of the ratio. So you get more leverage, both as you get the advancements in the technology, but then also as you get scale.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
But all of this is to say, you should basically anticipate a world where, and I think Zuck is this interesting counterbalance on all of this because of open source,
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
If at any moment you know that Zuck will basically provide an open source model that is at kind of best in class benchmarks and at the frontier, then there is a limit on how much you can charge for the tokens of your hosted model because anybody will then be able to go host the open model and be able to provide infrastructure around it.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
So if you always have that counterbalance and the tokens eventually kind of look the same, the output tokens kind of look the same.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
It's actually not even necessarily the case that the that the customer has to pick the open source vendor, they might buy it through an abstraction layer that that is letting them get the benefit of open source, but but still buy through a proprietary.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
I believe... In AI? No, no, no. I believe open source causes pricing to always be extremely low.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
No, not necessarily. You don't? Okay, explain. Because only meta has the scale to be able to provide... I think what Aaron is saying here, let me maybe try to frame it.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
And it'll go to the cost of the compute, to be clear, with a little bit of margin for the work of- The energy, the physicality of that compute.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
Now, it's important to step back and say, I still think you could probably have the entirety of the model providers make 10 times more revenue than they do today because we're just literally in like the first percent of the total TAM.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
So it'd be a mistake to think that that has some kind of downward pressure in terms of the long-term economics of these businesses, especially because I think OpenAI's revenue stream is increasingly looking like a SaaS revenue business as opposed to just the API kind of token pricing. So none of this is to provide any sort of color on what would you bet on today.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
I agree with Chamath that you're going to have maybe not 30 providers, but let's say you at least have five to 10 good choices all competing heavily for the next breakthrough. Like literally this morning, Google had a breakthrough in sort of this reasoning-oriented model from their Gemini family. They're 2.0, yeah. Yeah.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
And so what's incredibly great is it's sort of the best time ever to be building software, assuming that you have a play in the market that lets you remain differentiated. And the key there is just do enough on top of the AI model that there's enough value there.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
No, not at all.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
And just to be clear, are you talking about the EO that went out?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
Yeah, yeah. So I think there's... I just don't agree with the TAM compression because I think there's another kind of counter event that's happening that AI is really going after, like services. And so that then conversely expands the TAM to software where IT budgets weren't usually applied to those types of things, but we can get into that in a second. But I think we've already seen...
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
I think we've already seen this, though, and it hasn't exactly played out as you're saying. So Zoho is this really interesting business. It's probably a couple billion in revenue at this point. And it's basically a suite of extremely low-cost, affordable software products by category.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
That's not been the reason people don't switch, though.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
Yeah, I guess the counter, and maybe you'd look at an ERP system or a CRM system or something else, that is sort of- Those things are totally screwed. No, but this is my point, the opposite. The last thing you want to touch is the system that is powering your supply chain.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
Yep.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
In reverse order, was against SB 1047... It felt like, you know, you had two big issues. One, you probably don't want state-by-state legislation on this topic. That's going to be, you're in a world of hurt if every state has a different approach to this.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
And then secondarily, if you just look at how it evolved from the very first proposal to the final proposal, and unfortunately, the kind of underlying philosophy that was in the bill, it was very clearly a sort of like viewing, you know, basically AI progress as inherently risky right now. And so it just ratcheted up the different levels of consequence for the AI model developers.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
Maybe, so Chamath, just to clarify, are you, there's two different ways to approach the lowering the cost of developing software. One is that it just creates more competitors in each of these categories, which then lowers my price because now there's some downward pressure. Dave's bringing up a different example, which is I'm going to build my own software at effectively the price of zero.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
The challenge on this, especially the second one, is most organizations don't want to be in the business of having to think about building their own software. They just want it done for them. It's not a core part of their... Your business would be very unique relative to the broad economy, which is like, I want a place to put my CRM records. I want a place to just have my HR get managed.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
And I think the downward pricing pressure due to software cost lowering makes total sense. I don't think it's a 10x factor. But, you know, I think that we've always had a long tail of applications that enterprises build. You did it in Microsoft Access. Now you do it in Retool. So the next era of that will be obviously AI built and there'll be 10 times the amount of that software.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
But it's not obvious to me why that would go after the kind of core, the core systems of running a business because just most companies are like not looking to reinvent the wheel of that.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
And the risk is sort of the second or third order effects of that, which is like, does Zuck then want to release the next version of Llama if you're taking on that much risk? And even the incremental updates, the liability you have In terms of any of the model advancements. And so right now we're benefiting from just an incredibly competitive market between five or six players.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
And you want them running as fast as possible, not having to have sort of this, you know, a whole council before every model gets released because they're, you know, in fear of getting sued by, you know, the government for hundreds of millions of dollars if one person does something wrong with the model. So that was the problem with SB 1047.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
In life sciences- If you want anything in a clinical system, I don't need to tell you guys this, but you have to do a QA test on every single change that ever happens and be able to prove that you tested every single thing.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
So the idea of a probabilistic AI system generating the kind of code for you in a clinical trial workflow, I just think, yeah, it's going to take a lot of change from regulators.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
Yeah, I think actually there's actually no reason why that wouldn't be a good thing if that did happen, to be clear. I think, though, back to Jason's earlier point, though, the counterbalance on the TAM compression is just now the sort of thing that we think of as software. That market now is much larger. Bigger, yeah. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
But like, that means that if you're selling, let's say $50,000 of security software, you know, maybe that goes down a little bit to, you know, $25,000, but, but you might, yeah, but you might sell $200,000 of new agent.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
It's incredible.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
Is it dollars? We try to make it very simple for people. Yeah.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
That's been the problem with some of the proposals on national legislation. I felt like the first CEO, it didn't have a lot of teeth in it. So it kind of was more like, let's watch this space and continue to study it. The actual current head of OSTP, Arti Prabhakar, a lot of folks in Silicon Valley know her. She's actually very strong, very technical.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
understands the valley well, does not lean into overregulation. So I actually think OSTP has had a pretty good steward, even under Biden. But I think the efforts that Sachs would clearly be leading, I think would lean even more toward AI progress and sort of not accidentally overregulating too early in this journey.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
There was another release last week of an experimental project for browser use. by Gemini, which is another advantage because YouTube has obviously an incredible amount of screen sharing data and videos.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
So, so you have, you know, like, like we think about visual as just like, okay, it's, it's going to be, you know, for, for developing, you know, CG characters or something, but it's, it's actually just like, like just all of the use cases of a computer are also on YouTube.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
And if you go to the AI studio from Gemini, they have a mode where you can turn on your webcam and then you basically, it has full visual kind of access to anything. And so they're cranking. And it's super exciting because you can tell that Google's woken up and they are just on full assault. So, I mean, just in 10 days, the quantum, the AI, open source, Gemini updates.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
It's like every morning you're waking up to a Sundar tweet. that is some new breakthrough.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
I don't think you want to bet against Sam and Greg. You don't want to bet against Elon. You don't want to bet against Sergey now in office with Sundar. You don't want to bet against Zuck. So I think the rankings are kind of less interesting as much as just the fact that it's like game is on. You do not have incumbents that are sleeping at this point. That's just going to push everybody forward.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
So just an incredible time for everybody.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
No, no, just the, I mean, the credit card rails is, I mean, the tax on transactions is obviously insane. So the stable coin being the intermediary for that in the future makes total sense if you could get everybody to kind of coordinate against that. So, yeah.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
DOGE kills its first bill, Zuck vs OpenAI, Google's AI comeback with bestie Aaron Levie
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure we want to move on, but I guess, so there's a parallel universe where, so no matter what, like obviously Gensler did not get his arms around this whole thing. So that was a big mistake. But there's sort of like DeFi slash financial crypto where almost everything is deflationary. It improves the rails. If you believe in Bitcoin as this store of value,