Morrus’ Unofficial Tabletop RPG Talk
315 | Romance in RPGs with Sam Parks | Hasbro CEO talks AI and D&D, PHB pre-orders cancelled by PayPal
Sun, 15 Sep 2024
This week, Morrus and Jessica are joined by Sam Parks to talk about romance and You’ve Got Chainmail. In the news, Hasbro CEO Chris Cocks talks AI and D&D, PayPal error cancels Players Handbook preorders, Discworld heading to Kickstarter, and more! -------------------- Sam Parks You’ve Got Chain Mail https://www.samanthaparks.com/youve-got-chain-mail Bookshop.org: https://uk.bookshop.org/.../mead-me-at-the-ren.../7593502... Amazon UK: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Youv.../dp/0008685584/ref=sr_1_1... Amazon US: https://amzn.to/3XmMadT Barnes & Noble (US): https://www.barnesandnoble.com/s/you've%20got%20chain%20mail -------------------- News [2:49] New D&D “Touring Experience” Launching in Toronto This Fall https://www.enworld.org/threads/new-d-d-touring-experience-launching-in-toronto-this-fall.706622/ [5:06] 2024 Players Handbook Pre-orders Cancelled Due to PayPal Processing Issue https://www.enworld.org/threads/d-d-players-handbook-paypal-orders-suffer-processing-issues.706673/ [8:51] Hasbro CEO Chris Cocks Hints at the Future of AI and DnD https://www.enworld.org/threads/hasbro-ceo-chris-cocks-talks-ai-usage-in-d-d-updated.706638/ [22:54] Greg Tito on Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/gregtito.com/post/3l3ywft6sxf2d [23:44] Baldur’s Gate 3’s Astarion has a cameo on the 2024 Player’s Handbook https://www.enworld.org/threads/astarion-from-baldurs-gate-3-appears-in-the-2024-players-handbook.706670/ [26:28] Builders of Baldut’s Gate board game from WizKids announced https://www.enworld.org/threads/wizkids-announces-builders-of-baldurs-gate-a-new-d-d-board-game.706658/ [28:00] Discworld RPG from Modiphius coming to Kickstarter on October 15 https://www.enworld.org/threads/discworld-ttrpg-kickstarter-to-launch-october-15.706645/ [31:43] Basic Roleplay Design Challenge Finalists Announced https://www.enworld.org/threads/basic-roleplay-design-challenge-finalists-announced.706677/ [36:15] WizKids opens pre-orders for life-size foam replica figures https://www.enworld.org/threads/wizkids-opens-pre-orders-for-life-size-replicas-coming-in-2025.706679/ [37:50] Expanse Miniatures from Green Ronin Coming to Backerkit https://www.enworld.org/threads/green-ronin-announces-expanse-miniature-set.706678/ [42:07] Critical Role releases programming slate for Beacon streaming service https://www.enworld.org/threads/critical-role-announces-fall-programming-slate.706635/ [47:57] Free League’s Electric State RPG releasing October 1sthttps://www.enworld.org/threads/the-electric-state-rpg-to-release-on-october-1st.706631/ [50:01] Pathfinder Resurrects Two First Edition Classes as Second Edition Archetypes https://www.enworld.org/threads/pathfinder-resurrects-two-first-edition-classes-as-second-edition-archetypes.706628/ [52:50] Pathfinder: The Dragon’s Demand Reveals New Trailer, Kickstarter Launching Soon https://www.enworld.org/threads/pathfinder-the-dragons-demand-reveals-new-trailer-kickstarter-launching-soon.706637/ [54:18] Level Up Advanced 5e has not one but TWO bundles up on Bundle of Holding https://www.enworld.org/threads/you-can-grab-two-level-up-bundles-courtesy-of-bundle-of-holding.706657/ [56:19] Main Topic: Romance in Gaming -------------------- Please support us on Patreon at http://patreon.com/morrus Don’t forget to join the Morrus’ Unofficial Tabletop RPG Talk Facebook group at https://www.facebook.com/groups/1033145023517295/ and join us on Discord at https://discord.gg/VAuxX8M Ask your Listener Question on Twitter, email [email protected], or contact us on TikTok at TikTok -------------------- Hosts: Russ “Morrus” Morrissey, PJ Coffey, and Jessica Hancock Editing and post-production: Darryl Mott Theme Song: Steve Arnott Malach the Maleficent played by Darren Morrissey Check out all the media content from EN World at http://enliverpg.com
Hi, I'm Kelsey Dion from the Arcane Library, creator of Shadow Dark, and you're listening to Morse's unofficial tabletop RPG talk.
This week, Morse and Jessica are joined by Sam Park to talk about romance, and you've got Shane Mail. In the news, Hasbro CEO Chris Cox talks about AI in Dungeons & Dragons, a PayPal error cancels some players' handbook pre-orders, Discworld RPG is headed to Kickstarter, and more! This week on Morse's unofficial tabletop RPG talk!
The Imperial Opera House is this week's sponsor. Get yourself down there and listen to people warble and screech their way through obscure foreign languages, achieving notes never intended for human consumption. You are guaranteed not to understand a thing, but they do sell nice ice creams at the interval. Wait, what? They don't sell ice creams? What sort of outfit are they running there?
Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to Morris' unofficial tabletop RPG talk. I am Russ, a.k.a. Morris, or Morris, a.k.a. Russ. And with me this week is...
It's me, Jessica, from EM Publishing, and we have a special guest co-host with us this week. And when she runs a TTRPG, it does not stand for Tabletop RPG. It stands for Time to Romance My Players in the Game. We have a romance author, Sam Parks, joining us.
Hello, hello. I love that very much. No one has ever described me that way, but I think it's going to be my new tagline.
Isn't it wonderful?
And I am equally impressed by how Jess did that in just one take.
I'm trying my best. I've only had one coffee today. Bear with me, bear with me. But yeah, no, excited to have Sam here because we're going to be talking later about romance in tabletop RPGs. And Sam, you have the unique blend of skills of being someone who plays games, runs games, and is also a romance author as well.
So I thought, what a perfect blend of genres to bring it together and talk about it. Because Russ is very confused whenever I discuss this topic on the podcast.
I wouldn't say confused. It's a strong term.
Yes, it is definitely something I have a lot of fun with, both in my books and in my games. So yeah, looking forward to get stuck in.
Okie dokie. Right, well, before we get onto that, shall we have a look at some of this week's RPG news?
Yes, many things have happened.
It has been quite a week, actually. Where should we start? I don't even know where to start. There's so much that's happened this week. Okay, let's start with... If you're in a Canada, one of our calendars, Toronto specifically...
I am not, but carry on.
I am not either. There is a Dungeons & Dragons themed touring experience starting soon.
Oh, what is this?
I'm not 100% sure what it is. So it was announced by Hasbro. Okay. And the details are scarce. It's called The Immersive Quest, a D&D experience.
Okay.
It's launching in Toronto. It's been announced by Hasbro, but at the moment, I mean, I couldn't find any details about it or anywhere where I could...
buy tickets not that I was going to buy tickets but anywhere that I you can buy tickets so I guess more information is coming soon but what what we did find was they did one based on Minecraft a while back and I'm wondering if it's going to be similar to that what was the Minecraft one is it like at a venue and you it's like a walk around and there's activities or yeah so you you it takes about an hour
Okay.
Well, it took about an hour and you explore this sort of Minecraft world and there was this interactive scavenger hunt thing that you could do. So I guess something like that. I don't know.
That does sound cool. I once did a pop-up Star Wars event. But that's where we put on, like, not AI, VR headsets. That's the one. And had those little body suits and we got guns and stuff and we all looked like stormtroopers. And basically the rooms themselves were probably just blank rooms.
Oh, I wanted to do that. It was really good fun. My brother told me about it. We didn't get around to doing it. Oh, that sounds so much fun.
It was. I wonder if it's going to be something like that, but maybe instead of being VR, it's physical stuff, props and things. Okay, well, thank you for that informative news item.
But, you know, these things happen, you know. I mean, it's got to be better than that Willy Wonka one. That's true.
That's very true. That was unofficial, though, wasn't it? Oh, yes.
Very unofficial, I believe. I think so.
Much like this podcast.
I didn't go. You'll be surprised.
Sadly. I went via the memes. It's fine.
Yeah, yeah. I think that's probably for the best, to be honest.
Okay. Well, other news. Do you want to stay on D&D news?
Sure, if you like.
So I haven't read too deep into it, but I know there's been a thing with D&D Player's Handbook being ordered by PayPal, and there's been issues with that.
Yes.
So, yeah, so I don't know too much more about it than the brief article that we've got up on EMworld because it hasn't happened to me because, you know, but loads of forum comments and D&D Beyond are saying that they pre-ordered the player's handbook. They did it via PayPal and they're saying emails saying that the payments aren't working.
which presumably means that they don't get access to the D&D Beyond content early, like they should have done because they were pre-ordering.
So they do get that. Oh, they have? Okay. What I understand is the way it's processed is you're not charged for the physical book until it ships. Right. So when they pre-ordered it originally, they were charged for the digital half of the bundle. And then partly because of the way PayPal works or something, it has a sort of session token which expires.
And then when it came to like three weeks later, and then Wizards went to try and charge for the physical half, that had expired. And therefore the payments failed, as I understand it, and I'm not 100% sure that's 100% accurate, but it's something like that, I think.
Okay, so people got some messages saying their order had been cancelled, but they're aware of this, and now they're going to fix it so that people's orders won't be cancelled. Is that...
As far as I can make out, yeah. Oh, fair enough.
Well, that doesn't seem like too bad then because I thought that meant people weren't getting digital access because that was the whole point of pre-ordering was you got your stuff early. But if that's not the case, then I guess it's not too much of an issue.
It sounds like it's going to work out all right, I guess.
I haven't used D&D Beyond since the new site's been up. Sam, I don't know, have you used D&D Beyond since the new stuff?
I mean, I've used the mobile app pretty recently, but I'm playing what's now a legacy character, I guess, so I haven't seen any of the changes reflected. I've not done any exploring. Yeah, neither have I, so... Well, I don't know about that, so... I do like how in the statement that they made, they said, yes, there are these tech issues.
Also, for some of you, you just had insufficient funds, so please replace your credit card. Some of you are poor, so. Some of you, you're right, it was our fault. And some of you just fixed your payment information.
Yeah, yeah.
Which is fair enough.
I mean, probably very true as well.
If you're not expecting it to go out in two parts, though, so you make your payment and say it came... I don't know how much it came to. Say it came to $60 or something or whatever it was. I don't know what it was. And they take $30 and then three weeks later take the other $30. I can sort of see how people... might get caught out by that because they'd assume it had been paid.
If you didn't pay too much attention. And so they wouldn't assume they'd have to leave $30 in their PayPal account ready for the second half. I don't know. Maybe.
I've been caught out by that with other kinds of books because, I mean, that's how pre-ordering books anywhere goes is it charges you when it ships. And I've had sort of payment methods that have expired since I made the pre-order and then not been updated.
Yeah.
And so then all of a sudden I don't have my pre-order because by the time it ships, it can't charge it to the payment method I had when I ordered it.
Yeah, especially if your credit card has expired in that time and you've got a new one or something. Yeah, because that's happened to me before.
Well, I guess they're looking into it and they're going to fix it. So if it's happened to enough people, I guess they'll make up a process for it.
Yeah, it doesn't sound like it's going to turn out to be a major issue. I mean, you've got an obvious contingent of people sort of going... oh, look, Wizards of the Coast are trying to steal people's money and not give them their books or something. And it's like, of course that's not happening.
I don't think that's what that is. Of course not. I mean, you know.
There's a lot of things to criticise Wizards of the Coast for. That's not one of them. This isn't one of them.
Speaking of other Wizards of the Coast news, are we talking about Chris Cox talks about AI uses in D&D?
We are, we are.
Okay, what a lovely segue. Let's talk about that. So, Russ, tell us, give us the overview of this. Because you wrote a lovely, was it you that wrote the article about it?
No, Christian Hawke wrote that.
Okay.
So Chris Cox is the CEO of Hasbro. And he used to be president of Wizards of the Coast before he got promoted like two years ago or something. I can't remember when it was. Yeah. Two years ago-ish. So he's now CEO of Hasbro. And he was at this Goldman Sachs event.
They're a big financial thing in the US, yeah.
I was talking about AI products and how those interact with Hasbro brands such as D&D. It is interesting because, you know, wizards have been, certainly in the last year, saying we will not use any AI for art. And there's been a couple of controversies regarding that where they've published stuff and it has AI art in it. Not always to their knowledge.
You know, sometimes it was, you know, an artist that, you know,
Had used it and it was in their contract that they shouldn't have. So Wizards of the Coast publicly told them off and reiterated their stance on it.
But yeah. But they've kind of like very much taken the stance that AI is going to not go near D&D. At least that's the messaging that I feel I've been receiving. whether that's what they intended or not. So that's kind of the impression I've gotten.
Yeah, the line has been, it's made by people for people.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Chris Cox was talking to people at this Goldman Sachs thing. I guess they're investors, I guess, or someone, something like that. I don't know who would be at that.
Stakeholders, I don't know.
Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. So he's talking about AI, machine learning based AI or proprietary AI. And he says he's excited about what he calls the playful elements of AI. And he talks about the people he plays with.
Yeah.
He says that he plays with 30 or 40 people regularly. That's an active gaming schedule.
Yeah, it is. I'm impressed.
Yeah. And he says, you know, if you look at a typical D&D player, he says there's not a single person, and these are his words, there's not a single person who doesn't use AI somehow for either campaign development or character development or story ideas. And that's a clear signal that we need to be embracing it.
Which, I don't know what that says about the people that Chris Cox is gaming with, because that's not my experience.
Yeah, that also is not my experience. Like I know there are some people that use AI images for like their character artwork, but they tend to say, oh, this would be just for my home game and I'd just be grabbing an image off Google for free, if not that. But these people have all said, but I don't agree with it in like published materials properly.
Like this is just me saying, oh, my character looks a bit like this.
So I'm not even aware of people even doing that much in my days.
I do know some people that do that. I would say the majority of people in the games I play with are doing at least that.
Right, okay.
But whenever we talk about it in terms of publishing, they're like, yeah, but I wouldn't want to buy a book that had all that sort of artwork in it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, anyway. It's a slippery slope, though, from one to the other. Because if you're using it for those things, we're crossing into the territory of generative AI. Because if you look at... quote of what he said, the first things he talks about, mostly machine learning based AI or proprietary AI as opposed to chat GPT approach, he's talking about, like he says, machine learning based AI.
That's basically really sophisticated autocomplete. It's not true AI. Generative AI is a different story altogether, and this is where the AI is taking things it can find and cobbling it together into something That is the thing that threatens intellectual property. It's the thing that threatens the publishing industry as a whole.
But it's also the thing that people are using to create those images of their characters. And so it's participating in that thing that they are saying they don't necessarily agree with, but in a way that I guess they personally don't feel like is necessarily creating any harm. Yeah.
Yeah, I guess from the player side of it, it's not that different to just grabbing an image off Google, which I've definitely done for my characters and things. You know, if I'm playing an elf wizard, I'll just Google elf wizard, see what I like and just say, that's what my character looks like.
Yeah.
So, I don't know. I don't know how I feel about it. I mean, he does go on to talk about how it needs to be done responsibly and ethically and how creatures need to be paid for their work. So, clearly, he is aware of the issues surrounding AI.
Yeah.
I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, he definitely links it there to D&D and player introductions and user-generated content, emergent storytelling. These are the terms he's using.
i yeah saying about using it for storytelling kind of worries me and like sam i don't know your thoughts because you're a professional writer and i just don't think like you say it's it's pretty much like a very complex kind of predictive text i don't think the technology is in a place where it's going to create interesting well-crafted stories in the way people can i i don't know what your thoughts are on that
Well, it's probably not, and we are already seeing a lot of AI-generated books being put on the market, especially places like Kindle Unlimited, for example.
I've never looked at one, but I'm going to guess they're not great.
They're not great. They can be more convincing than you might think. And I think that the problem is where the source is, because for something to be a really sophisticated autocomplete, it's got to be pulling the intelligence of what to use in that autocomplete from somewhere. Yeah.
And access to that source material that it is learning from is the crux of a lot of the ethical problems around AI. Because when he's talking about proprietary AI, that will be content that Hasbro and Wizards are loading into it that they have created so that it can take what they already have and suggest new things, new combinations of things off the back of that.
But at that point, they're just regurgitating their own stuff. They're not making... anything new, are they? They're just going around in circles.
But if you're pulling from art that you don't have permission to pull from, if you're pulling from art that all of these other people have created and have not explicitly said, I am okay for that to be used in an AI context, then that is Essentially theft. And that is what a lot of people have problems with.
And there are a lot of people that are really angry at these AI companies for having been able to access their works of art because the ways that they were set up were not necessarily safeguarded against theft. Yeah.
Yeah.
make a quick buck, whatever they're trying to do with it. Or even, honestly, to tell a story in their D&D campaign, right? I wouldn't want something that I'd created to be used in that way. If I wanted it to be used in that way, I would make it available online to be used in that way.
So I think that's where the line is, and I think he's talking about straddling that line in a really interesting way, because it sounds like what they're doing internally is kind of on the acceptable side of that line, in my opinion. I've drawn this line for myself. But then the way he's talking about himself and other people he knows using it is kind of towing the other side of that line.
Well, I think there's a number of lawsuits in the US which are currently in progress where some of these companies are being sued by large authors or artists or... basically for plagiarism.
Yeah, I think the New York Times one is the one that I'm, I think a lot of people are most interested to see how it pans out because it's basically them saying, hey,
ai did not have permission to access all of these articles that we wrote and you're using it to replace us needed a court to yeah i think we need a court to come down and just say definitively what we already know but for court to say definitively and put in the legal precedent that ai is plagiarizing and a court to actually say that right because you know we we all know that but until a court says it it's not a it's not necessarily legally true does that make sense
Yeah. Yeah. And it's a global issue as well, because if one court says this is what we think about it, it's up to other countries to follow suit on that. Otherwise, it means nothing. You know, you can just go online and find it somewhere else, use a VPN and connect to it another way. There's lots of ways around it. So it needs to be a more concerted effort.
But yeah, it's interesting to see a quote that's so transparently outlining both the way that they are using it and the way that their leader is thinking about using it.
It worries me, even legal things aside, even if they're not using other people's things and say they just use their own proprietary stories to feed, you know, the machine. I still don't like it because I think for me, like tabletop RPGs are meant to be like creative storytelling and just churning out the same thing and having some sort of pattern.
And especially from like an industry leader because D&D is the biggest RPG out there and stuff they do other people follow. And what they do is kind of what a large part of the gaming space expects. I don't want that to be normal, that adventures and material and monster design is just... a pre-packaged product that comes out with a formula.
I think, yeah.
Because I want that creativity. I want that innovation. I love speaking to different games designers and they get new ideas and perspectives that I don't... I look to for innovation, though.
I kind of look to indie games for innovation. D&D is kind of... Yes. There's the safe kind of thing. But...
If D&D start doing this and that becomes a normal thing, I wonder how much that will trickle down and how many products in the market will become that and how much cheaper will they be? And then will that ruin the careers of writers because loads of publishers like, well, I'm not going to pay for a writer to come in and write this adventure for me because I'm just going to.
Yeah, because obviously it's already affecting artists.
Yeah, you're seeing that in all kinds of industries. Like, oh, no, we're not going to hire a copywriter for this ad campaign because we'll just feed it into AI and tweak what comes out of that. So it's inevitable that it will happen in some form, unfortunately, in the gaming industry.
But the other positive that could come out of it is if there is backlash against their use of AI, especially if they are disclosing it in the way that he's saying they will. Hmm.
maybe that will open the doors for other systems, other games, especially indies, that can hold their hands up and say, hey, we're creating this together with artists, together with writers, and that'll be a competitive advantage that they have when someone's looking for what they want to play.
We'll have artisanal tabletop RPGs, like, handmade, like, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, yeah.
Maybe. Yeah.
Greg Tito. Incidentally, last week we kept calling him Greg Tito. I think that was my mistake. I'd never heard his name said aloud. And I've never met him. But Greg Tito, apparently. We got a couple of emails about it.
Oh, apologies for the mispronunciation.
We were saying his name wrong. Greg Tito, who was communications director at Mrs. of the Coast until like a couple of weeks ago and left for that political career.
Mm-hmm.
He has commented, he posted on Blue Sky, he says, because now obviously he no longer needs to be the voice of wizards and speak the party line, as it were. He says, and this is something he would never have said before he left, I'm deeply mistrustful of AI and I don't want people using it anywhere near my D&D campaigns. Which is an interesting thing to say.
A lot of people that work in the industry feel that way because there was a similar thing with your article about Evil Genius Games. A lot of people...
leftover concerns of ai and that sort of tech being used in the games so yeah yes and anyway anyway that's that's that anyway that's that topic um i guess it's just to keep an eye on and see what happens
Yeah, and in fairness, we can't really speak much more about it because they haven't said what they're going to do and what that means. So it's just, yeah, it's just my wild speculation at the moment. But something about it makes me feel uneasy because I think AI is a tool that could be used well, but I just, I don't trust there's enough regulation.
And also, like, to be frank, I don't trust Wizards of the Coast as a corporation to use it responsibly.
There's genuine ethical uses of AI. Yeah. But generative content creation is not one of those.
Correct, yeah.
I would agree.
I think each person needs to decide for themselves where their line is as they watch all of this unfold because different people are going to feel differently about it. But if you wait until Wizards of the Coast comes out with this whole AI-produced piece of content or a new book or something... that's not the time to be making the decision about how you feel about it.
There's enough conversations to be happening, and then that can impact the way that you behave in the games that you're playing, whether you're dipping your toe into generativity.
Yeah. Sadly, I think this is an issue that's going to be resolved on a much larger scale than the TTRPG industry. Oh, yeah. When it comes down to it.
We're such small fry.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's going to be a global thing with big, big, big industries. Mm-hmm. And we'll just be writing the tale of that, you know. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, when Hollywood starts putting out AI-made movies or something like that, you know, that's... I don't know.
Anyway.
That's not a feature I want. Put it that way.
No. Shall we segue into something else?
Yeah.
I found an opportunity to talk about Baldur's Gate 3 again on the show.
That's not about you, Jess.
I know. It's a really brief thing. There's a piece of artwork in the new player's handbook and there's like a vampire scene and in the corner there's a little cameo because there's a vampire that looks a lot like Starion and And it's been confirmed, the artist, David Estruga, confirmed that the sketch is based on a starion. Because some people saw him.
He's in the bottom right-hand corner of an image. The article's on EM World, so you can see the exact image. And people are like, he looks a bit like a starion. Is it? Is it? But he's like one part in a big scene, and it's not massive. But he has confirmed that was a thing. And that seems to be a thing that Wizards is doing.
They're really leaning into the Baldur's Gate 3 success and using kind of art and coverage from that. So, yeah. I imagine we might see some more stuff in the new Monster Manual with art leaning into those characters that people really enjoyed as well.
It wouldn't surprise me because, you know, Baldur's Gate 3 was big and they apparently own the characters. Yeah. Larian don't. Wizards do. So there's no reason not to, is there? You know, it's a big, big popular franchise. Yes. Might as well use it, I guess.
I mean, I loved it. And also there's a mind flayer in it and there's a mind flayer character in Baldur's Gate 3 called the Emperor who's potentially romanceable in case anyone's into that. Spoilers. I'm not giving you spoilers. I'm just telling you there's a character... That's potentially romanceable.
I still might get to play this game.
I know. This is the topic of the podcast, Russ.
Romance in RPGs.
Come on. Fair enough. Fair enough.
Some people want to kiss mind flayers. I did it, but just for the achievement.
Hmm.
Anyway. Sure.
I don't know what to say to that.
Me neither. I didn't feel good about it. It was awful the whole time. I was like, I don't like any of this.
I do love that the starian cameo is for the daylight spell and he's one of the victims of the spell. Yes. Because he's a, yeah.
Is he an actual vampire in Baldur's Gate then?
He's a vampire spawn.
I'm right, okay. Yeah. Okay. As you know, I'm very, very familiar with Baldur's Gate 3 and know all the details about it. I'm just pretending not to for the sake of the audience.
I've offered to play the game with you because I'm doing millions of runs, but you've made your choices. Anyway, but also they use, because we watched that Project Sigil virtual tabletop project thing and they use Baldur's Gate 3 stuff there. Yeah. And they're also using the voice actors and things. So I think we're going to see more stuff with little bits and pieces like that.
Because like I said before, I think Baldur's Gate 3 is a really nice welcome to introduce people to the hobby that have been interested.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm going to stick around with a sort of circle around D&D for a bit because there is some non-D&D news.
I have some more potential Baldur's Gate news as well.
Go on, then. I know what it is. I was about to say it, but you say it. Go on, you do it.
All right, sorry. All right, no. But it's not Baldur's Gate 3, but there is a new D&D board game coming out, which is Builders of Baldur's Gate, which is an official Dungeons & Dragons licensed product from WizKids. So it's not Baldur's Gate 3, technically, but, you know, there was a slight segue there. But, yeah, so I don't know much about it.
Like, they announced it, was it this week or the week before? I don't know.
recently a couple of days ago i think but anyway it's by matthew dunstan uh so he's done monumental and elysium if you're a board gamer and enjoy that so i think the mechanics in this should be really interesting i'm looking forward to seeing how it plays uh so you're like placing buildings there's also an influence cubes to indicate control so it's that feels quite something i'd quite enjoy but yeah i like was it lords of water deep the board game i really enjoy that one i played that one yeah it's really nice games i've played i've played that one
So this seems similar, like, tone, as in you're building ventures, defending monsters, controlling factions, managing things like that. So this might be something I'm interested in. So, yeah, it's going to be released second quarter of 2025. It is $65. Yeah, so I'm intrigued. I might take a look and see if I can get a play of it at UK Games Expo next year or something before I buy.
Okie dokie. Yeah. So, Modiphius. You know they're making their Discworld RPG. I do now. We did talk about it a few weeks ago on the show when they announced it.
Was I here?
Unknown. Possibly. Or maybe not. One of those two things.
This is the one they're crowdfunding.
Yes, they've announced the Kickstarter date. So that is going to be launching on October the 15th. Marvellous. What's also interesting is it's not using the 2D20 system, which Modiphius uses for pretty much everything.
I thought they hadn't confirmed what system it was using.
They have now. Oh. It's going to be a new game system, a narrative-focused game system.
Interesting.
Hmm. Other than that, I can't tell you much. Okay. I mean, it's the 40th anniversary of The Colour of Magic, which was the first Discworld book.
Yes.
So I guess that's kind of the timing. I'm interested. I haven't read a Discworld book in ages, but I did enjoy them a lot years ago when I read them as a kid.
I do like the books as well.
Yeah, yeah.
But I'm intrigued about this new narrative system because I do tend to lean more towards narrative rule systems than something a bit more crunchy. So I'm very intrigued. Oh, they're going to have some previews of Quick Start Rules later this month. So I think I'll have a look and we can talk about it then maybe.
Yeah, yeah. I wonder how similar, because there was the Monty Python RPG that came out, it was kickstarted a couple of years ago and then came out, what, last year? I don't know, I can't remember.
I feel it was more recent than that, but... Yeah, I just like... Kind of a construct anyway, yeah.
Yeah, but games which are basically based on sort of like surrealism and silliness and humour. So I wonder how similar to that it is in terms of...
This is a very different tone to... Yeah. You know, tone to that. So, although it is, like you say, silly and fantasy and all those things, it's not really the same vibe as Monty Python, I don't think.
Yeah. I always kind of worry with that sort of thing that because, like...
Monty Python and Discord and stuff are so funny and so good and basically you know Discord was basically written by you know a genius who is clearly far far funnier than I could ever be and cleverer than I could ever be I kind of worry that sort of like trying to run such a game could you really capture the voice and the tone of it because that sounds like a difficult thing to do I'd be worried about it yeah
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah. Well, I suppose when it comes to support material and stuff like that, if all the humour is ingrained in the actual adventures and stuff, that helps, doesn't it? It gives you tools to use. Yeah, and the way things are described and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And a lot of this absurdity comes from the world and the situations you're in that are just bizarre, opposed to, like, you know, particularly that any of the characters are particularly, like, wisecracking.
Well, yes, some of them play it completely straight, don't they? Yes. Yeah.
Which is what makes it funnier. Yeah. I'm intrigued by it. I definitely will be having a look at the quick start rules.
Yeah, me too, yeah.
To see what's that about. So when it's out at the end of the month, maybe we'll have a read on here and share it and share our thoughts when we know more. But I am intrigued for that one.
No, I am too. I am very intrigued.
So what else has happened this week? Has anyone else got any other news to throw in the ring or things they wanted to talk about?
Yeah. So do you remember the basic roleplay design challenge?
Oh, yeah, I do. They announced that a while ago and it looked... It was Chaosium. Yes.
Launched that and there was $10,000 in prizes. A lot of money. Basically, a bunch of finalists would get $500 each and the top three will get like $2,000.
Nice.
Something like that. And one of the cool things about it was, Chaosium weren't trying to claim the rights to any of this. They were basically saying, just kind of like kickstart, I guess, a creative community.
Yeah.
Incentivize a creative community. So they're basically saying, you make this stuff, it's still yours and you can set it. We don't want any of it, but we're going to try and incentivize that by having a little competition and the best ones will just give you... A prize.
I love that.
Yeah.
That's nice. I didn't realise that part of it.
I think it's a clever idea.
It's just trying to kickstart a third-party community.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they're not trying to claim ownership of these things. They're not saying they're going to publish these things. They're just saying this is the stuff that you would do normally using our licences, but you can enter this competition and, you know... It just fuels the sort of creator base, I guess.
Yeah.
In a way.
I'm scrolling through and there's a list on EN World with the top 10 finalists. We won't read them all out here because that probably isn't too exciting. But because the basic role-playing universal game engine can be used for anything... There's a real variety of different, like, settings and things like that.
Yeah, I'm seeing historical, sci-fi. I'm seeing intrigue.
There's one where you're playing witches and doing magic and things like that. Some of them look cosy as well, which I like. Yeah, and then there's Prince of Masks, a Baroque dark fantasy setting. So there's... And I think this just does really showcase that, you know, that toolkit system, you can do anything with it, really. So...
Yeah. Well, this is now open to a public vote because there were, I think, nearly 200 entries and they had a panel of judges which selected the top 10. And then so those top 10 are now getting that $500, I think. And then it's the public vote now to find out who the top three are who will get the $2,000.
Nice, nice.
Yeah. But I think it's such a cool thing to do. I think it's a really, really cool thing to do.
Yeah, and you can go on. There's just a quick vote. You only get the short snippet of what it is because I was wondering if they have a bit more detail to place your vote, but it is just the brief.
Hmm.
like, back of the cover kind of thing of it. But yeah, you can vote based on that. But I might vote on that later. I'll have a read through and have a think and place my vote. But yeah, I really like this initiative. Voting is open until September 26. So if you're listening, you too can vote and get involved. But yeah, I think it's a really nice way.
And it's a really clever way to kind of, yeah, support the third party community and advertising and PR for the system, I guess.
I agree entirely.
My only complaint was that I was only allowed to vote for one because I could easily come up with a top three out of those. They're genuinely really interesting sounding ideas. What were your top three? should I say, and it influenced people? Because obviously everyone's hanging on my every word. Yeah, be an influencer.
Well, the one I voted for in the end was Season of Magic, which sounds quite cozy. So that's the one where you're playing as a witch. Equipped with knowledge, magic, and the kind heart necessary to heal even the deepest wounds and bitterest hearts.
Wow.
I mean, come on. I also thought Starlust Secrets sounded really interesting. Not to typecast myself with the word lust in the title, because it doesn't mention anything about romance in the blurb, so I don't know if that's a coincidence. And then the last one, Nuna, I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly, which sounds like it is based on Inuit history. Yeah. Which sounds interesting.
So those were my top three, but I voted on Season of Magic in the end.
Fair enough. I haven't voted yet. I will do after the show, I think. I'll read through them all and then I'll vote then.
Yeah, I've only skimmed through them. Yeah, but I love the variety that I've seen when I've had a look through, so I'll have a look through and place my vote. I'll let you know next week where I voted as well. Okay.
Okie dokie. Right, more news, more news, more news. We got some Expanse miniatures. We got a miniature of the new D&D Black Dragon. We've got some WizKids life-size replicas of dragon eggs and Displacer kittens and things.
Oh yeah, the WizKids models. That Displacer beast kitten is a need. I need it. Really? I need it. It's so cute.
What will your dog Kirby think of that?
i know he would think it's for him and he'd be wrong there's i like the little there's a pathfinder minis they're doing at whiz kids as well and there's a gourd figure it's like a pumpkin head i thought and seasonal uh it is for q3 2025 so it's for next year but so not for this halloween yeah but next halloween and the baby trinket for all the critical role fans Yes, as well.
Again, that is coming out for next year. That's $130 for Little Trinket.
yeah it's life size life's like what does life size mean like uh just under 13 inches tall for that one it looks like there we go and the displacer beast kitten is 10 and a half inches long i love the marketing material describes it this little loaf is yeah and there's a dragon egg there as well yeah look at that and tell me that's not a loaf
It is sat in a little loaf format. It does just look like a cute kitten with, like, displacer beast, like, tentacle-y bits put on, so... Well, more to my taste than the cute kittens... Okay.
...is the spaceships. Because I like a spaceship.
Okay, Wizkid's doing some spaceships as well, are they?
So these are from Green Running...
Oh, for The Expanse, sorry.
Because they make The Expanse, actually. And it's a new miniature line of spaceships. And so it's going to be two box sets of their hard plastic miniatures. One is the spaceship crew and one is ships of The Expanse. So there's characters and ships, two of them. 28mm scale. Can't wait. I'm going to check that out because I just like toy spaceships.
Yeah.
Even though I've never played The Expanse, I will still probably get it just for the toy spaceships.
Well, I mean, yes, if you want toy spaceships. But I suppose you could use these with any sci-fi RPG.
Exactly, yeah.
As long as it met the sort of tech style that you had from that. Yeah.
Well, that's going to hit Battle Kit in another day, actually. I'm trying to look for the date, but there is nearly 4,000 people queued up on waiting for that, though.
Oh, I think it's launching in four days and four hours.
Oh, wow. I think this is going to do really well for them. I think so, as well. Well, miniatures always do, though, don't they? Miniatures are...
I wonder how much it's going to be, though, because doing a set, because it looks like there's 27 parts to it, so that would be quite expensive to manufacture and set up. So we shall see. I'm always interested about that, like how much people will and won't pay for minis and things like that. Because it's something we looked at at EM, but we're like, do people want this? Do they not? I don't know.
It's hard to know.
People want minis.
Yes.
Miniatures Kickstarters always do really well. But I don't know about tokens and standees and stuff, but miniatures ones definitely always do really well. People just love minis.
Yeah.
I mean, my philosophy on minis, though, is always that I'll never paint them. Same.
Same.
Yeah.
Don't have patience for that.
I have no desire to. I have no skill in doing so. Don't have the fine motor skills for it.
Yeah. Yeah.
So, yeah. So, generally, I only buy pre-painted minis anyway. So, I guess that kind of walks me out for this, probably. Sadly.
Yeah, I don't mind unpainted ones.
Unless I just said all the spaceships are grey. Spaceships can be grey, can't they?
Yeah, made of metal.
Yeah, they're grey. Actually, I have painted them. I've painted them metal colour.
Also, I feel like it's better for them to be unpainted than for them to be painted and then not work for as many applications.
Yeah, that's a good excuse. I suppose you could get some chrome spray paint and just do that to make them look actually shiny metal. You know what I mean? Yeah.
I mean, you could.
Anyone that paints minis now is like, Jess, no, you can't do that for all these reasons.
That is literally as close to painting minis as I would ever get.
I mean, yeah, same. I have a friend who likes to paint minis, so if I ever needed them doing it, I'd maybe sweet talk them because they enjoy doing it.
You know when you go to some of the large conventions and you'll see there'll be a stand there with like 100 people sitting there painting minis?
Yeah.
As a recreational thing.
I just don't understand it I just do not understand it the only time I've ever painted minis was at sort of a mini painting party with a group of people and we all chipped in a few quid to our friend who owns the paints and just all sat around and made fun of each other for four hours while we painted minis it was great
Yeah, I haven't even done that.
Well, I think if you enjoy art and you enjoy painting, I imagine it is quite relaxing, especially because it's such fine detail. You must really need to focus. See, I don't think I find it relaxing.
I think I find it stressful and frustrating.
Yeah, but yes, I agree. I'd be the same because it would never look like how I'd want to in my mind and that would frustrate me. But other people don't have these hurdles in their heads.
You've got to match your expectations to your skill level. But if you do that... Like, I have a low skill level, so I set low expectations for myself, and I had a good time as a result.
Well, that's the skill I don't have, Sam. My expectations are sky high, and my skill level is not, and so I'm like, this is terrible. And, yeah, so... Yeah. No pain in the ass for me.
We've only got a couple of bits left now. We're nearing the end of the news. We've got Critical Role's full programming slate, and we've got the Electric State RPG. Which one of those do you like the sound of most?
Tell me what Critical Role is up to.
Okay, I will tell you what Critical Role is up to. So you know they had to announce their Beacon streaming service a while back?
Mm-hmm.
So they're having their own streamer and they're going to be putting their content on that.
You can still watch it later for free on YouTube though, right?
Yeah.
You get like an ad-free early version on Beacon.
Yeah. Yeah.
If I was correct.
Well, they've kind of announced what's going to be coming on that later this year, 2024. So there's going to be the Re-Slayers Take, the second season of that, which is a family-friendly series set in Exandria, which is the Critical Role Universe world setting. And that includes a bunch of actors, including Billy Boyd from Lord of the Rings, one of the Hobbits.
Oh, nice. Yeah.
I'm related to a hobbit.
I was going to say, I'm really, really interested to see what his character is.
Yeah.
Because it would be equally weird to see him playing essentially a hobbit, but also to see him playing anything but a hobbit. Yeah.
Well, the other hobbit, Dominic Monaghan. The other hobbit. I am related to because, well, sort of, not by blood, but my brother's... That's what related means. He's the cousin of my brother's wife.
They're related by marriage.
Am I related or not?
He's a cousin-in-law.
A cousin-in-law. Is that a thing? A cousin-in-law.
You've still got the normal number of degrees of separation from him. You just would be more likely to be able to act on it if you needed to.
I mean, I've never met him or spoken to him, but I have seen him at a wedding.
Okay.
Okay, that's all right.
There you go. You've been in the same room.
You run in the same circles. I've been in the same room at a wedding.
There we go.
That's my claim to fame, I guess.
That's a very good claim to fame.
Yeah.
So with your claim to fame and your insider knowledge of Dominic Monaghan, what do you know about Billy Boyd's upcoming character for the Crickle Roll show?
What do they say at the wedding about it?
Jess, seriously, what's the point of having a co-host who's distantly related to Dominic Monaghan if you're not going to have this information?
Do you know what? This wedding was over 10 years ago.
Are you trying to say that 10 years ago they weren't planning their character for this campaign, that they've just announced some critical role? Is that what you're implying?
That is what I'm saying.
Well, it's all on you.
This has been in the works for a while. But anyway, okay, yeah. So yeah, that's happening. Billy Boyd is in this thing. Anyway, so. Billy Boyd, who is not Dominic Manahan, he's a different Hobbit. But a Hobbit nevertheless. So there is a guest star. I don't think it's a regular. But also we have the third season of Tales from the Stinky Dragon.
Lovely.
Which is a family-friendly one. It's an independent show. I don't think it's made by Critical Role, but it's joining the Beacon streaming service.
I've seen snippets of that on social media and it is very funny. It's like a chaotic...
RPG tables like being retold and animated and it feels very relatable to a silly D&D table that you've had yeah well so they've also got so the Legend of Vox Machina which is on Amazon am I right Amazon? Amazon.
Yes.
The Critical Role cartoon. Amazon, isn't it? Yes. Has a companion show called Insight Editions, and that is going to be launched on Beacon. So you can watch the show on Amazon, and then you can go over to Beacon, presumably, and watch Insight Editions, where I guess they talk about it. They sit around in a studio and talk about it, I guess.
Oh, like a behind-the-scenes sort of thing. Yeah, like a TV version of a director's cut or something.
Yeah. I mean, there's only two episodes, each covering half the season. It's not like one episode for each episode. So only two episodes, but that's the thing. And then they're going to be having a bunch of fireside chats with Travis Willingham and Ashley Johnson, announced for September and October, and presumably others later.
Nice. And more of their live shows as well, I can see.
Oh, yes. The Daggerheart Critmas Story Live Show. It's going to be on December 7th in Camden, New Jersey. And that is going to feature the final version of their Daggerheart RPG.
Oh, that's coming out next year, so you should watch that for a bit of a preview, because I know there's been some people that like it online, there's been some people that really don't like it. It's divisive, isn't it? Yeah, it's been quite a divisive one, so yeah, I'm intrigued to see the final form.
I think some of the root of that is a lot of Critical Role fans kind of know D&D very well, or are mainly familiar with D&D, and where Daggerheart kind of differs from D&D, maybe that doesn't sit super comfortably with the brand that they kind of... I don't know.
But in fairness, Candela Obscura doesn't have that issue as much. I haven't heard as much negativity around that, and that's the same thing. It's that sort of audience, and it's very... Well, you're on a Candela campaign at the moment, aren't you, Sam? It's very different from D&D.
It is incredibly different, yeah.
I think that's possibly why, though, because that's so different from D&D, whereas Daggerheart has more overlap with D&D, doesn't it?
Yeah, Candela's not got very many points of comparison. Yeah.
Well... So I think some people were kind of thinking that Daggerheart was going to be Critical Role's version of D&D, and that's not what it is.
No, they're not, like, doing a Tales of the Valiant or a level-up thing of their own.
That's not... Yeah, yeah. No. I mean, I don't know. I can't speak for other people.
Well, we'll find out.
I'm just guessing.
At Critmas, won't we?
I guess so. I guess so. Right, what else have we got? We've got Electric State.
Yes.
So this is from Free League. And this is, you know, Tales from the Loop was based on the art of, what's his name? Simon Stalaharg? I don't know how you say the name.
Well, you're saying it on the internet, so someone will correct you. So don't worry about it.
Almost certainly.
Wait for an email. Someone will tell you.
Almost certainly. Well, they definitely told us that I was saying Quick Tito's name wrong.
Yes, that was the callback.
Thank you to those people that did let me know. Several people that let me know. Thank you very much for doing so. But anyway, so The Electric State is another of his narrative art books. Separate to Tales from the Loop. And it kind of featured kind of like America, Southwestern USA in the 90s. And it's kind of ruined and post-apocalyptic.
And there's all these sort of giant robots with cute heads and things wandering around.
Well, there's an RPG of it as well. That's coming out like next month. Is it next month?
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
Oh, I thought you were talking about the narrative art book.
No, that's what it's based on.
Oh, so the narrative art book is out.
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, sorry, I got confused. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yes, the Electric State RPG is coming out on October 1st.
Got it.
Because that hit Kickstarter like last year or something.
Yeah, okay, yeah.
Made like 400 grand or something. I can't remember what. Casually.
Like a casual half a million. It's not a big deal.
Free League always do really, really well, don't they? They've got a big and loyal fan base and their stuff is gorgeous. Yeah.
Yeah. So if you missed the Kickstarter, it's now out at retail.
Well, as of October 1st, yeah. Okay. A couple of months, yeah. But it's coming.
We got that. I thought you were announcing a new art book that they're doing based on it. That's what I thought the news was.
And it's not the thing I was doing. I was counting the game.
Well, I'm so glad we clarified. Yes.
Oh, I'm exhausted now.
We've nearly done the news.
Are we done? Is there any more?
No, I have some Pathfinder news I can tell you about.
All right. Tell me Pathfinder.
Okay. So Pathfinder second edition, they're resurrecting two different classes that were in the first edition, but they're resurrecting them as archetypes. So I don't play a lot of Pathfinder, so I can't give context. I haven't played these. But they are bringing back the Blood Rager and the Inquisitor as archetypes. And this is in their book for the War of the Immortals.
So this is War of the Immortals, second edition. But yeah, so... It just expands the classes and gives more abilities and brings them back. Because I guess people really enjoy playing these in the first edition. I've not played these ones, so I don't have a lot more to say about it. But yeah, Blood Rager does what you think it would. It's like a barbarian class archetype. Access to blood rage.
Absolutely what you'd expect from that.
They harvest blood action that allows them to refresh temporary hit points. Sounds like a vampire.
It does a bit, doesn't it? So it does. I don't think it is a vampire, but I guess you could play it that way.
I guess.
I played a video game that has an ability like that. It was in Divinity. In Divinity, there's a spell that you can use that lets you stand in blood and soak it up and use it to revive and make your damage all stronger. It's very nice. It's a really good one.
Does that make you a vampire? Or do you literally have to drink it?
I think it's more that you're absorbing the life force of the blood rather than the blood being... The blood itself? Yeah, the end itself.
Yeah. Okay. What's interesting, the Inquisitor renaming it to the Vindicator.
Yes.
Because of the real world... The evil ones. Well, they wanted to get... Well, the evil ones are still called inquisitors, but the good ones are called vindicators.
Yeah, because they wanted to move away from... Because there's real world negative historical connotations to an inquisitor. Yeah. And they were like, let's do a sidestep on that one.
Yeah, yeah. But they're keeping it for the baddies, so...
Well, because they're baddies, yeah.
Because they're baddies, basically, yeah.
Yeah, the War of the Immortals book, these will both be featured in. That's coming out in October 2024, next month. And that's dealing with the... Because there was that big meta event we talked about before, which deals with the death of the god, and we know that's now Gorom, the god of war.
and so the book war of the immortals is is dealing delving more into that storyline and so these archetypes are coming out of that yeah and there's also two other new classes and rules for yeah there's a whole bunch of stuff in there so we'll do an article on war of the immortals looking at the whole book As a whole, when it's out.
I'm sure we'll get more and more information over the next month in the build-up to it coming out. So that was one of the Pathfinder rules. And also, there's a Pathfinder video game coming out.
Oh, yes. I'd forgotten about that. Yes, I saw that.
So it's coming to Kickstarter. It's crowdfunding. It's Pathfinder The Dragon's Demand, and it's a CRPG-style game. It does use tabletop minis in the Pathfinder 2nd Edition. I haven't seen the whole thing, but I'm intrigued by it because I really enjoyed Baldur's Gate 3.
It looks like that, or it looks like Project Sigil.
It does a bit because it's got actual minis instead of like those moving characters.
If you look in the trailer, they're moved like minis as well. And they're not animated. It's sort of like you say, this one's doing a fireball and there might be a spell effect animation, but it's not like they run across there.
So this is like Pathfinder's version of that, really.
Yeah, I was quite interested in that.
I am intrigued with this, about this.
It looks a lot like Project Sigil, just visually, the way it seems to. Obviously, it's a video game and Project Sigil is a virtual tabletop, so they're different things. But just visually, when you look at it, they look similar.
Yeah.
Like similar things.
I'm interested in this. And also, it uses the Pathfinder 2E rule set, so it could be a nice way to get used to playing that as well. Yeah. So I'll probably take a look at this.
Yeah. Okay. Okay. Now we've got to be done. We've got to be done now. There can't be any more news.
Anyone else have any other news for the week?
In the entire world, nothing else has happened, I'm sure.
Well, related to TTRPGs.
Oh, we did something.
Did we? What did we do?
We did something. Yes, we did. Do you not remember doing something?
Not all week, no. I've just been chilling.
Bundle of Holding.
Yes.
We have got two bundles over on Bundle of Holding. They are both Level Up Advanced 5th Edition bundles.
Yes.
And one of them is a Core Rulebooks bundle.
Mm-hmm.
And one of them is called Level Up Adventures, and it contains the starter set and some of our adventures, adventure material.
Yeah, it's got Adventures in Zeitgeist, Dungeon Delver's Guide, and Save the Kingdom Adventure Path in there as well.
Yeah, yeah. And they're, you know, basically, they're a really good deal. It's about $130 worth of books, digital PDF books, for about $30. Yeah. That's a really good deal. Yeah.
Yeah.
Right, now we've got to be done. That's got to be it now.
That's all the news I've got.
Okay.
Malek the Maleficent here. If, like me, you're enjoying this podcast, please consider subscribing on Patreon for exclusive bonus content every week and the warm, fuzzy feeling of knowing you are helping to keep the show going. Subscribe at patreon.com slash like that now? The things I do. All right. All right. Don't forget patreon.com slash Morris. Can I go now?
So the topic of the week. So as I mentioned, I thought we could talk about romance in tabletop RPGs and that whole kind of discussion of it. Because I think it's quite interesting because some people don't really include it in their games. They're not interested in exploring it. Other people are literally like, wow, I only play D&D as an excuse to flirt with my friends.
So there's a whole spectrum of people that play their games in different ways. And there's different games that tackle the subject. So I just thought it was an interesting area. And this is why I invited Sam Parks on as well to talk to us about it. Because Sam, you've got a really unique skill set that I briefly mentioned. So you're, you know, a DM and you play games and you write romance books.
And recently you wrote a book that kind of blends both genres and both worlds that you have, weren't you? Why don't you introduce it and tell us about it?
That's a Venn diagram of talent.
Yes, exactly. As a Venn diagram of TTRPGs, cosplay, and romance, my book kind of sits in the middle.
Are you the only person in the center of that, or is there anyone else? No.
The center of all three of those that I know of, yes, there are other romance books that sit in the middle of the Venn diagram between TTRPGs and romance. And I can talk about some of those if we want. But my book is called You've Got Chain Mail. It came out last month, so August 2024.
And yeah, it's about a group of friends that are playing D&D together and two of them fall in love because it's a romance novel, so that's not a spoiler. Mm-hmm. And yeah, it's definitely born of my own love for TTRPGs. And it's through the lens of someone who's a slightly newer player. So gives a touch point to the romance reader audience that may not be as familiar with it.
But another fun thing is that the campaign that they're playing out, I've actually included in sort of fantasy interlude scenes throughout the book so that you're able to see that
And I think like a lot of people that are new to TTRPGs, our characters are discovering that they're able to explore and do a lot of things sort of personality-wise and identity-wise within the game that they maybe aren't able to embrace as easily or in as uncomplicated a way in their real lives.
And so I really enjoyed exploring the dynamic there, you know, the friend group of people that are playing D&D together in the book. It's a really important part of the story and definitely comes from my love for my friends that I play with. So, yeah, it was definitely a marriage of all of my passions.
And did you blend the romance into your actual game sessions as well? I mean, is that a common theme in your games?
I wouldn't say it's a common theme, but it does happen. And I think it happens where it's happened. It's happened quite organically. I don't do it intentionally. I'm not one of those people that plays specifically for romance purposes. Yeah. But it definitely does happen. I'm playing, as Jess mentioned, I've got a Candela campaign that I'm a part of where my character is involved in.
romance with another PC. And there are two other PCs that are romantically involved together, and there are NPCs that people have been romantically involved with. I've been in games where none of that has happened. I've run games where there has been romance. I've run games where there's been no romance. But I think that
Unlike a romance novel, which that's kind of the whole premise, you come to it for that. I think unless you're playing a TTRPG that is specifically designed for romance or you're playing a romance-specific campaign or one-shot, then it needs to be done a little bit more intentionally than just the way it would happen in a romance novel. That's obviously the...
The fantasy version, fantasy obviously means something else when we're talking about TTRPGs, but romances are still fantasies to an extent, right? So, unfortunately, it doesn't play out exactly that way in real life. But I still think it's a lot of fun and I still think it's a worthwhile part of RPGs for myself.
I really enjoy it when those things do happen and they're done in a way that sort of honors everyone involved. Yeah.
i i love it when i'm in a game and even if my character's not involved when i see two other player characters like getting a thing because you end up it's kind of like in real life you know when you see two of your friends get together and you know it's going to happen and it's just kind of like quite excited you're like oh no kiss or that moment in a film or a tv show so it's kind of fun being part of it on the table i think even when well for me when you're not involved but obviously with anything with romance it's
I kind of approach it lines and veils in the same way I do horror, which is interesting now I say it out loud, like to say horror and romance, because they should be very different vibes. But obviously everyone's got to want to play that, because some people are just really uncomfortable with the whole thing. They're like, actually, I don't want to do that.
So whenever I... I think I'm one of those people. I mean, I'm not saying that I would refuse to try, given the right situation and people. But it's certainly not something that's ever really been part of my experience.
But there's also different levels to it, right? Because you might be, when you're thinking of romance in TTRPGs, you might be thinking of two player characters who are in a relationship and are RPing the dates that they're going on. Like I did that last week. My character was RPing a date that my character went on. So that's like the super end of the spectrum.
The other end is just, you know, you've got an NPC that says something flirty to a PC.
Mm-hmm.
And that's it. Maybe they're a sex worker and they see you and they're like, hello, sailor. That's flirting and that is romance in RPGs. And I think understanding where different types of interactions fall on that spectrum and understanding... people's comfort levels on that spectrum is a really important part of it.
And you have to be able to kind of vibe check as well, because someone might not be able to articulate where they fall on that spectrum.
Or might not even know, I guess.
Exactly. So you've got to, whether you're the GM or you're the person that's involved in that, you need to... be able to kind of keep an eye on the situation and see how it's evolving, see how comfortable the other person is. And the beautiful thing about romance in TTRPGs versus romance in real life is that it's not weird to then afterward just be like, so how did you feel about that?
You can have a really transparent conversation. Is that weird to do in real life? It shouldn't be, Jess. It shouldn't be. But sometimes people feel a little bit weird doing that.
When you describe that scale of it, and you mentioned that it could just be an NPC doing something like that. So when you put that perspective on it, then I guess, yes, I have experienced that in my games then. That's just, that's not what I was thinking of when we said romance. But yes, certainly on that scale, then I have interacted.
But I think in my experience, it's always been played for laughs.
it's always been a joke that's always the easy way to go isn't it because then it's like a silly fun thing like we're having a night at the pub and like somebody picks someone else up and it's like yeah
Yeah, it's a city. So, I mean, I don't know, maybe that's just a gateway?
It is, but also you want to, again, you want to make sure that you're not using it as a gateway in an exploitative way. That, you know, if you're easing your way up that spectrum, that everyone that's involved, not just... the DM, not just the PCs involved, but also every other character that's there, their players are all comfortable with what's happening. Like Jess said, it's like horror.
One person might be really, really uncomfortable with cannibalism. in horror, that's now a no-no for the whole table. And similarly, there might be people at your table that are uncomfortable with certain types of romance interactions, regardless of who they're happening with. There might be some people who are only uncomfortable with that happening with their characters.
In the campaign that I'm running at the moment, the Lines and Veils spreadsheet that I created, and I've got a survey that goes along with it that I actually make my players retake every six months, it incorporates that. So it really, really details all of the possible types of romance interactions. I mean, I'm never going to personally run anything explicit in my games.
You might have DMs that are open to that, but I think that's going to be the exception.
over the line for me i wouldn't do that it'll be over the line for me and that's you know what i do for a living is write romance novels but yeah it's different when you're kind of acting it out with a person i would say like the level of detail that i go to tends to be you know um first of all you separate it into pc on pc or pc on npc because those are two very different
dynamics at the table um and then within that you've got to break it down to what are the actual things that you're comfortable with the flirtation are you comfortable with that the stating of we did x we
slept together last night or we kissed or whatever is happening there or are you comfortable with people having to roll performance checks to see how well that particular activity went or acrobatics checks you know that kind of thing it's you've got to be really specific and I think that for a lot of people it feels over the top to be that specific especially if there's no intention for the campaign to go in that direction
But because a lot of these things evolve organically, it's really easy if you don't have those things defined to let it get away from you. And for a couple of people in the spirit of a joke to be like, oh, well, you know, we went to bed together last night. Roll a performance check to see how well you did. I'm going to roll a deception check to see if you realize something.
Yeah.
It gets to be a bit much. And if there's someone at the table who's uncomfortable with that, then you're putting them in a really bad position. And so being really explicit from the beginning and then also making sure that people are revisiting those things over time as the story goes on.
And especially if you see those stories starting to develop at your table, making people reiterate their positions on things and reevaluate them, that's a way to keep everybody safe and make sure everyone's having a good time.
Hmm.
And I would also say don't be afraid for people that are running games where maybe PCs do want to interact in that way. Don't be afraid to take certain things off of the overall table if that feels right. So, for example, if two characters really want to RP going on a date and the rest of your table is like, we want nothing to do with this. Yeah. Let those two people RP going on a date.
Like, just do it with just the two of them. And, you know, be willing to be flexible to make sure that everyone at your table is having fun. But the priority is that everyone is having fun and that no one is uncomfortable because of someone else's idea of fun.
Yeah. I suppose there's a danger. I suppose it depends on the group and the people involved. And especially maybe if you had, like, maybe a group of... you know, younger males involved that it could get, you know, kind of juvenile and stuff like that. I mean, is that, is that sort of like ways to approach it to try and avoid falling into that trap?
I'd love to say yes. I don't think you can avoid falling into that trap if that's just the vibe that your group has. I'm going to be honest, me and my friends act like 12-year-old boys sometimes. We'll be in the middle of a very heartfelt RP scene, and one of us will just say something really... snide to the side and it's hilarious, but then we're right back into it.
So I think sometimes that happens. I think the important thing is, is that vibe feeling right for everyone? And again, it's your responsibility as either the GM or as one of the people involved in that to make sure that everybody else at the table is comfortable with that.
So like I said in my Candela game where I'm heavily involved in a romance arc, I will regularly check in with other people who are playing in that game and say, how did you feel about that? I'm making sure that we're not taking up too much time at the table with romance RP when there's actual missions that we need to go on, that kind of thing.
And it might feel stilted as a conversation topic for people that don't often talk about those kinds of things, but... It's a worthwhile thing to do and people will get more comfortable talking about it over time.
I think the comfort comes from trust with the players you build as well. Because when I first started role-playing and I was new to it, I was new to the community of people. And also this was like years ago. And it was a very male-dominated hobby. And quite often I was a very minority as a woman at the table. And so I shied away from having those things because I was worried about boundaries.
I didn't want players on the table to think, oh, if Jess's character is flirting with my character, is that Jess trying to flirt with me?
Yeah, yeah.
So that could be a danger. I never wanted that because I was... That's not why I went to the RPG club. That's what I wasn't looking for. So I shied away from it for a long time.
And I've only recently, probably in the last four or five years, started incorporating that in my role play because I've been playing with people that I know, that I trust, understand that differentiation and know that I'm not actually flirting with them as a person. This is Jess's character doing things like that. And my first step into that, I purposely did Regency.
And it was a Regency lap I did because in Regency, there's no touching. No one's even going to try and hold your hand. So I was like, that felt really safe because there's really structured social rules in a Regency setting for what romance looks like. And so that felt like a really safe way to kind of dip my toes in.
into exploring that style of play and those sorts of relationships I think it's so much easier for me like I probably wouldn't do a romance RPG at a convention because I wouldn't have that level of trust or know the comfort of the other players or know that they're going to receive that but when I'm playing kind of home games with my friends or with people I've gamed with a lot I'm far more comfortable to say hey is anyone interested and is everyone okay with that and just doing the lines and veils with
what is and isn't okay like Sam was talking about. So I think another thing is who you're playing with and the context of where you're playing really does matter.
And the expectation that you're setting is the GM, right? So I would personally never run anything that was contingent on romance, whether that is a romance RPG or whether that's even just I need someone to be willing to romance this NPC in order to move this piece of the story forward.
I would never do that as a GM unless I had had a conversation with my players to know that they were comfortable with that. And I think as the GM, it's your responsibility to set the expectation of what possibly is coming down the pike as far as you're able to. Obviously, some of these things, especially the PC on PC romance, often develops organically. But...
gm to pc stuff should or npc to pc stuff should always be done more intentionally because that is the responsibility of the person shaping the game yeah absolutely but but that that said that we're talking a lot about romance being like a side part of a game where that's not the main thing but there are games where romance and things is the main draw of it like there's games like
thirsty sword lesbians where a huge part of it is the tension between characters of like which is like a romantic thing there or you've also got like oh is it called broken tales or just no it's not broken tales i can't remember i'll put it in the show notes i apologize broken something where you're playing two people who are going through a breakup and part of it you are physically breaking objects and like talking about it and role-playing that so that is
you know, a lot about that as well.
I wouldn't like that at all.
I don't think I'd like that. I would love that.
I would love that. I've had a lot of real breakups in my life. I don't want to add fake ones to it.
Yeah, and I get that. Like for some people, some things are just for not, for some things like, yeah, there's some games I won't invite. So if I was running a game like that, Russ, like I wouldn't invite you because I know you would just be like, no, I don't want to enjoy that. Whereas to Sam, I would be like, hey, I'm going to do this game. Do you want to come play?
And Sam would be like, yes, please. So you've got to be really clear and have the right audience for that. But my favorite RPG of all time is very unstructured and it's called Family Affair. And it is about two couples. There are two sisters and they are married to two men and the men are best friends. And then there's an affair that happens across one of the women and what has with them.
one of the sisters has with the other husband, the best friend. And it's all about that interpersonal drama and relationships. And that was my most, that is my favorite RPG. And when I first played that, I'd never played anything like it. And yeah, it was really good fun. And it was just really messy. And there's something very like kind of cathartic and interesting.
And it's looking about, for me, the draw and the interest is about people and because like exploring that side of people's minds and their motivations and yeah it's just interesting and that game is really tightly structured and i've played it so many times and it's always been different even though it has the same structure and the same ending every single time
Just because of the way people interpret intentions and emotions and the way they go to it, it feels different every time. I think that's part of the draw.
I think that's why a lot of people, even in RPGs that aren't intentionally about anything romantic, I think that's why a lot of times these things do happen and a lot of people do enjoy that. It's a...
It's an interesting way to explore humanity and all the facets of humanity and people that are really into their characters and they're really into RP with their characters, even in games like D&D, where that's definitely not the focus of most D&D campaigns or sessions. Yeah. Those are the kind of people that are going to gravitate towards games like that.
They're also the kind of people for whom a romantic subplot is likely to develop organically within those games. And so it's just important to know that about the people that you're playing with.
Mm-hmm. I think for me there would be quite a strong element of self-consciousness as well in such. I mean, I think I would feel very self-conscious and awkward and silly doing that just because of who I am and what I'm like. It's not necessarily things that can't be overcome. I don't know. I don't know.
I mean... It's almost like that classic thing of, like, if you're trying to solve a puzzle in a TTRPG, and it's like, my character's probably smart enough to solve this, but I'm not smart enough to solve this, so I'm getting stuck.
It can feel kind of like that in romance of, like, oh, my character would probably be handling this really naturally and in a suave way, but I'm feeling really awkward about this, and therefore... It's getting a bit stilted. So you can run into that sometimes. And I think that metagaming is such a bad word, so to speak, in TTRPGs. But I think that's the beauty of them, right?
Is that you can pull out and say, hey, actually, this is what happens. And, you know, ask questions, ask advice, explain an intention, that kind of thing. Use metagaming to your advantage when you're in a situation like that, because it's not cheating, right? It's not cheating to do that. It's just...
creating the encounter that people want to create and not feeling like you have to attach your performance in that encounter to your own ability to flirt effectively or whatever if your character is lifting a boulder the player doesn't have to physically lift a boulder you know it's yeah you say my player my character has a strength of 17 he can lift the boulder yeah you know
And it's the same thing with romance. You've got to be able to separate yourself from that. And I think people do tend to... I don't think you're alone in that. I think a lot of people tend to attach those actions to their own perception of or ability to perform those actions and to flirt well and stuff like that. And that's just not... That's not the reality of it. And that's not the fun of it.
If I wanted to just...
flirt with people as myself i'd just go flirt with people as myself the point the point of it is to explore that character and what that character is experiencing and so sometimes quote unquote metagaming can help with that because it's clarifying intentions and it's creating opportunity for things to happen that might not otherwise be organically possible in rp with me as a player
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Because you can do that style, exactly what you said of being like, oh, and you notice during the conversation, the way she's talking to you, she sounds a bit flirty, actually. It can just be that it's not like you have to roleplay a whole conversation where you'd be like, hey, I can't think of a single pickup line. So for example, that's what we would do.
I got to there and I was like, oh no.
Always, always, always go Joey Tribbiani in Friends. How are you doing? How are you doing? There we go.
I should have at least gone to, I just want to say, and I was like, I'll think of something. And I got there and I was like, got nothing.
Yeah. I think also, I mean, we've touched on consent and things like that. And we're all, I'm sure, aware of examples of actual pay, live streams and things like that, or reports from conventions where that has... been done wrong. Yeah. Sometimes with, you know, catastrophic consequences. I mean, I don't want to bring up any names, but... Yeah. I mean, we know that can happen.
So, and you mentioned it as an analogy to horror.
Mm-hmm.
earlier, Jess, and I totally get what you mean.
It shouldn't be horrific, unless you want it to be, I guess, unless you're going through a horrific breakup, I guess.
But the issue of consent is there, though, in exactly the same way. And so... I think with something like this... Mm-hmm. It's kind of a little less clear-cut than horror because it can develop and change.
Yes.
More than... You could sort of say, no, I don't want cannibalism, and therefore you just don't have cannibalism. Yeah. But a social interaction develops and changes...
Yeah.
And that's why those safety tools are so... It's harder to prep for, isn't it, I guess.
I have a form which I get my players to fill out. And Sam mentioned doing something similar. And mine has a section on romance. And one part says, are you comfortable with NPCs flirting with other player characters? And there's, yeah, I'm fine for it to be on the table. I'm fine for it to exist, but not with my character, please. Or no, I don't want that at all.
And it's the same for between players and players. And so if one person says, I don't want that campaign at all, it's not happening. But most of the time that will happen that I'll have some players that are like, I don't mind it existing on the table, but I don't want my character to be involved. So that does a really clear line.
So I say for anyone, if you're not sure, you think you're uncomfortable with it, always put that boundary and just say no. And then later you could come in and say, actually, yes to this bit. And you can like decide later.
Yeah, you need the ability to change.
You need the ability to do that in the moment. Not just between sessions, but in the moment. So my campaign that I'm running, I actually have one player that I have a code word with because they have a few things that they're uncomfortable with in the romance area and in other areas. And we developed code word. And I said, if at any point you say this code word,
I – or it's actually – no, I'm not going to be specific about it just in case people are listening. But if at any point you say this code word, I, as the DM, know that I need to redirect the situation. I need to interrupt. I need to redirect. And then you and I can catch up afterward and I can figure out exactly what it was that – scratched, that hit things wrong.
And if that sounds like a lot of work, if you're a GM that's like, God, I just don't want to have to create code words with everyone. That's the job. You have to be ruthlessly committed to the comfort of every single one of your players. And if that's not you, that's fine. Just don't include any of this. Don't include any of it.
Err on the side, like Jess said, of not doing any of it because that's the safer choice. Yeah.
Yeah, that's just struck me. So the code word basically is so that someone can use a code word without having to sort of feel like they have to stand up and go, no, I don't want this and make a spectacle or feel like a spoiled sport or any of the many different sort of social peer pressure type things that might happen so that the other people aren't aware particularly.
But if everybody has a code word, a different one, and the GM knows what those code words are, That sounds like it would be, I'm sure, I'm not inventing this, obviously, but I'm sure someone's done this before. But that sounds like a way that you could certainly handle like things changing in game without having to force people to, you know, stand up and make a scene and, you know.
With my horror games. And that can be a lot to manage. It absolutely can. And I only have a code word with that one player. We have a phrase as a group that we can use and that's included in the Lines of Vale spreadsheet and in the form that they fill out, so they all know that.
I developed it with this one player because I knew that there were some things that they were uncomfortable with and I got the sense that they weren't going to be comfortable standing up for those boundaries. Yeah.
in situ yeah so yeah so that's why i created that mechanism with them but yes if if another person i got that sense from or if another person something romantic started to develop organically or i knew that we were going to go into a situation that even got remotely close to one of their lines and veils i would i would come up with code word for that person too and i just have that code word in bold at the top of my screen the entire time i'm running just thought i don't
forget that if they say this word yeah yeah that's what that means yeah and again if that sounds like too much work just don't do it don't do any of it
Yeah, I have a thing similar with my horror games and I haven't run a specifically romantic focused game, but I have a traffic like system which you can have a card or an object, one red, orange and green. The red one, if someone holds up, the game is like, no, stop, we need to do something. Amber is like, oh, this is getting a bit weird. Let's maybe. And green is, yeah, this is OK.
So sometimes if I was doing a really intense role play thing, I might just hold up something green like on the screen now just to check in. And everyone can like hold up their green card to opt in to say yes. Because sometimes it's easier to opt in and say yes, you know, to not opt in than to say no.
Because someone might be uncomfortable and they don't want to be the person to put the red thing up. But if everyone's holding up the green thing, it's easier to not put up your green thing, if that makes sense. Maybe I didn't explain that very well. But I sometimes do that. And I've done that a lot with horror because...
I've been describing a very gruesome thing, and it's not been on anyone's lines and veils beforehand, but I'm still like, is this okay? Because this is a lot. And everyone's generally been like, yep. But it's good to have those things. And the great thing with online games is people can direct message you as well, because I've always said that as a gem.
Yes, you don't have to necessarily do it in public when it's online.
So they can privately be like, oh, hey, you know, and it's easier to do things like that. But in person, I tend to do cards and traffic lights and things. So you can, in the moment, say, Actually, we didn't discuss this in advance, but no, thank you.
Yeah. Yeah, it's a really interesting topic. And, you know, just because I've never encountered it in my gaming doesn't mean I'd be opposed to it. But I think it really would have to be the right people and in the right situation. I certainly wouldn't do it at a convention. I wouldn't do it with people I don't know, I don't think. Yeah. And probably I would tend towards the humour with it.
Yeah.
I think. But that's possibly just a coping thing. I don't know.
Yeah. But that's okay. I would say... Yeah. I would say the lightheartedness is an important factor. I think there's very, very few people that are playing TTRPGs for dark romance. Like, that's not... That's not... Apart from Jess. Yeah.
Well, no.
I don't know about that. If we're talking about dark romance as far as, like, dark romance books and, like, what...
what that means i don't think anyone's going i there aren't very many people going there with it so i think keeping the lightheartedness keeping the jokey quality is an important part of it because it also just serves as like a um you know just kind of pumping the brakes in the situation like a well-timed joke can just keep things from getting a little bit too intense for someone yeah i
I think also as a player, there's things that you can do if you're in that situation to help make sure that things stay okay. I think obviously outside of that situation, having conversations with the other players and with the GM, make sure the GM is comfortable with, you know, running romance at their table. But also in the moment, keeping an eye on pronouns.
So rather than I do this to you, it's... you know, my character does this to your character or my character says this to your character. You know, the game I'm playing, the Candela game I'm playing, my character's called Sally. The character they're romancing is called Benny. Be like, Sally holds Benny's hand, not... I hold Benny's hand or I hold your hand.
That's a very important distinction, especially if you're playing with people that like you're not sure about. And I'm not always wonderful at that because if you're really immersed in the RP, like sometimes it, you know.
You can do that. Yeah. And you do that in combat too.
You're like, I hit this person, but it's really important when you're in those kinds of scenes to just really create that separation between yourself and your character. And yeah, the other PC and their player, that separation is going to help keep that sense of psychological safety, which is such an important part of it.
I guess the other thing that maybe occurred to me is group dynamics. If you're playing, say, just a regular D&D game and you get into a fight with a bunch of kobolds or something, that's kind of something that everybody's involved in and doing their thing. Whereas a romance will probably be just between two players. Yeah. And what's everyone else doing at the time?
Sat there making jokes. I can make a romance everyone else's issue. And the way I've done this is I love an unrequited love. So I've had, with the consent of the players in advance, an unrequited crush on this other player. And the...
the character sorry characters just what Sam said so character to character a to character b and uh the character b didn't know anything about it but the rest of the party did and so the rest of the party was making it their mission to try and push them together so that is one way to actually have everyone be involved in it because the rest of the characters were all rooting for these two to to make it work and I was working hard to make sure that didn't happen so it would be as
angsty and long-stretched as possible so it can be exactly what you said russ that it's like it's leaving everyone else out but you can find ways to make it everyone else's issue but also everyone's gonna give you a pretty in my experience i've never seen this happen where it wasn't really clear from everyone else how they felt about the situation
Like, in my Candela game, everybody else is asking, like, when are Benny and Sally gonna go on their date? Like, oh, Benny and Sally are doing... Like, they're egging it on the entire time. They're participating in it, even if they're not... the actual ones in the situation. And so it means that when time comes to spend time on table in that situation, they're not frustrated with that.
We know they're not going to be frustrated with that because they've been pushing for it the entire time. So I've never seen it play out. Any other way. It's always there are other people on the table who are egging it on. And that is how those things often develop organically. Is because other people are making jokes about it. Other people are pointing it out.
And I'm sure it could happen otherwise. But most of the time people are going to be pretty clear from their participation. Like whether or not they're okay with that. And obviously that doesn't replace... Mm-hmm.
I think balancing a table and you want everyone to have a moment where they get their spotlight for their character arc. And that doesn't necessarily mean their romance or their relationship. So I think that's just another thing to balance in the party to make sure people are having their moment to do the thing they want to do with their character.
totally so it's just and obviously if it's always going back to the same two people even if that was in combat if the GM's always focusing in combat on this particular character and giving them cool moments that's not fun for the party so I don't think it's exclusive to romance arcs focusing on that that
you know cause issues with table balance yeah no one's the main character at that table it's a it's a party thing and yeah i i think it's again it's the gm's job to make sure that if things are naturally pulling to one or two people whether or not like just said it is because of romance reasons to make sure that the other characters are being given things
And I do think that there is always an element of sometimes there are things that are just happening with one or two characters and the rest of us are just kind of there. Like, that's fine. You know, your character's dad is the BBEG and everyone else is just sitting there while you're having it out with your evil dad. And that's fine. Like, that's part of it. Romance is kind of the same.
It's just that the content of that spotlight can be a little bit more loaded. Exactly. Yeah.
Yeah. We've also kind of, like, talked about this quite a bit in terms of a developing romance, flirting and then a date and stuff like that. But, of course, romance could exist as, like, right from the start, two players are, I don't know, maybe married. Yeah. Characters, sorry, may be married. And they're playing a married couple in this game.
So you don't have to necessarily go through the whole romancing process. You know, so that's... Yeah, I think that would probably be easier.
It definitely is, and it's people's preferences. So in that exact same game where my character is going on a date, we've got another two PCs that are now married, and they went from meeting to... you know, being together for the first time to getting married and going on their honeymoon, all without RPing any of that.
Like, there was a little bit of banter back and forth, but then otherwise they were just like, oh, our characters are off doing you know what, and then, oh, our characters got married in between missions, and... this person's child was there to be the witness and stuff like that. And that's what they're comfortable with. That's what's fun for them for the romance that they have.
And then me and this other player, what's fun for us for the romance that our characters have is to RP those moments and nothing has happened in those two characters relationship that hasn't happened on table. And so, yeah, there, there are different ways to go about it, but the,
the player's preferences will often kind of steer it one way or the other and it may be that the rest of the table is more comfortable with one of those than with the other and you want to kind of push you know push the people that are more into the rp side of it into a more summary based approach to their romance
I think, yeah, also you could sort of say you're playing a game and say Jess and I are in this game and we were playing a couple who had been married for 20 years and were a bickering.
That's a lovely dynamic as well.
Yeah, and that's still...
romance it's just not romantic does that make sense sort of i would say it's not romantic content and so like i wouldn't necessarily feel the need to cover that on a lines of veil spreadsheet or to check in about that because that's the same as like characters who come in and are playing siblings you know i'm playing a character at the moment whose uncle is also a character in the game like no one's being like oh is everyone okay with this character having an uncle like that's not
That's not the thing. It's the content of that that becomes a matter of concern that you need to make sure everyone is on board with.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, but it is a good way if you are interested in exploring sort of a romance arc or subplot with your character to introduce yourself to that is to, yeah, come in with that pre-established romantic relationship into a game and In order to give yourself an easy dynamic to pull from. But again, you've got to be on the same page.
In that instance, you and Jess would both need to be on board with, you know, what is the nature of the relationship? What are we talking about at the table? Are we talking about... you know, any romantic content of our relationship? Or is this just the relationship and we just bicker like an old married couple?
And you'd both need to be comfortable with that and then you'd play it out accordingly. And if you agree together on any romantic content, that's where you then loop in the GM and then the other players to make sure things are above board.
I do like bickering, though.
Bickering is fun. More fun than flirting, some might say.
Well, yeah. Or a form of flirting. Can it be one and the same? Because you are a romance author, the fact that you do that, does that influence the way you play romantic relationships and tabletop RPGs? Or does it go the other way? Has the fact that you've explored this and role-playing games influenced your writing?
I think it's probably a little bit of both. I think that definitely I really, as a writer, and maybe this is why I'm a writer rather than because I'm a writer, but I struggle with my brain not jumping ahead in the narrative, right? So, for example, I've got a playlist for this character that's in a romantic relationship.
And there are songs on there that are only relevant to things that we are probably months away from happening because I just know my brain has skipped ahead and I know where this is going to go. One of us is going to die and it's going to be bad. And I've got the playlist on there about that. So I think there's my brain does skip ahead in that way. And I think it it.
It both makes it kind of harder to RP in the moment and also sometimes more fun because there's like an end to it. There's a narrative purpose to it. It ties maybe more easily into narrative. But then in terms of the way it impacts my writing, I would say the dynamism between characters is something that I've learned a lot from TTRPGs. So just the...
The unexpectedness of how people respond to one another, I think it's really easy, especially in a genre like romance, to just go a really expected route with interactions, but I think more and more these days you're seeing romance with really good banter, really good clashing personalities, and...
you explore that a lot in TTRPGs and you're not in control of what the other person is going to say. And so the way that that plays out feels a lot more organic and authentic to multiple characters in a way that I do try to consider when I'm writing.
Yeah, yeah. Right, we are coming up to four, so we need to wind down now. Coming up to the end of our time together, I'm afraid.
Well, Sam, if people want to see the blend of your RPG and your romance novel and pick up a copy of You've Got Chainmail, where can they do that?
So my recommendation would always be to shop with your local indie bookseller. You can buy it on Amazon, you can buy it online other places, but local indies are the absolute best. I think, Jess, you'll have links in the show notes below. Also, if you are in the U.S. and you like the Ren Faire scene, part of this book is set at the Carolina Renaissance Festival.
And so I'm going to be doing a signing on the last weekend of the Renaissance Festival in November. So I'm going to be doing a signing and meet and greet while I'm there. And that's in November. And again, information about that given to you guys that I assume will go in the show notes. In the show notes, yeah. I'll pop that in there. Fantastic. Okay. All right.
Thank you very much.
Excellent. Thank you, guys. I really appreciate it.
Yeah, it's been a real, real pleasure talking to you.
Apparently I now have to read this to you. This is the official podcast of Morris' unofficial tabletop RPT news, which you can find at enworld.org. You can find show notes at morris.podbean.com or wherever you found the podcast. If you feel like they deserve it, you can support the show on Patreon. In return, you will receive exclusive bonus content. Just go to patreon.com slash Morris.
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I hope my rant about AI wasn't too cumbersome. Feel free to cut as much as you want.
Oh, believe me, we get lots of rants about AI on our show.
Perfect. In your company, then.