Zoë Grünewald
Appearances
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
doing it yeah pub gardens i mean i i don't i didn't hear that there was a lot of secondhand smoke problems in pub gardens i thought that that was mediated by the being outdoors so and i'm not really sure how they're going to enforce this you're just going to send a load of smokers to what like a couple of roads over and they'll they'll congregate and i don't really understand how it's going to work yes i am biased i do like to be in a pub garden and have a have a cigarette so
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
Me too. I'm like, you know, and this is what I kind of struggle with. A few weeks ago, we spoke to the chair of the NHS Confederation, Victor Adelboale, and he told us that, like, a really good way of... thinking about how we organise society is to think about health in every single policy. I mean, in some respects, this is a perfect example about that. So I kind of get it.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
But I also have this thing where, you know, Rishi Sunak has brought in legislation where generationally the ability to buy cigarettes is going to be phased out, right? So is this a problem that really needed to be solved right now? Or is this a show of, oh, well, Sunak did it, so I'm going to do it more. I'm going to do it double. I'm going to do it quicker.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
I just don't really, I don't fully get it. So I'm a bit, yeah, I'm on the fence.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
Where's this come from?
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
That would be such a plot twist if Keir Starmer was like, no to the cigarettes, yes to weed. Exactly. So on the geopolitical front, Foreign Secretary David Lammy has suspended some arms sales to Israel, stating there is a clear risk that the equipment could be used to commit serious breaches of international law. The UK has suspended around 30 of 350 arms sales export licences.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
To supporters of the Palestinian cause, it's simply not far enough, while those on the right are furious. Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu has called the decision shameful and the White House is said to be let down by the decision, while defence experts say that the UK's tricky tightrope walk may end up pleasing nobody at all.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
If you're interested in more analysis on this from a geopolitical front, we cannot recommend... Enough, our sister podcast, Pod Save the World. But here, domestically, a newly formed alliance of independent pro-Palestine MPs have called the UK's longstanding position on the policy beyond shameful. So this is interesting, right, this new alliance of MPs?
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
So the alliance has promised to campaign against the two-child benefit cap, the winter fuel payment and arms sales to Israel. Obviously, they're not a party, so they don't have a manifesto, but those are some things that they have promised.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
Now, after the break, we're going to be getting you up to speed with the conclusion of the Grenfell inquiry. The police tell us they are here to protect us, but what if their original purpose was something else altogether?
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
Tickets sold through Ticketmaster were subject to what's known as dynamic pricing, where as demand for tickets goes up, the price rises. Ticketmasters say dynamic prices keeps the price in line with what scalpers might be selling them for, with an aim to keep the money with the artist and also with Ticketmaster, and is allowed under consumer protection law.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
Peabody award-winning host Chenjerai Kuminyika takes listeners on a captivating journey through pivotal moments in New York's past that formed the foundation for today's policing. From its origins rooted in slavery to rival police gangs battling across the city to the everyday people who resisted every step of the way.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
The trailer is out now, so make sure to follow Empire City wherever you get your podcasts and listen to full episodes everywhere on September 9th. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or an Apple podcast to listen ad-free. Decades of failure and systematic dishonesty were the root causes of the Grenfell Tower disaster.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
That's according to the second and final report from the public inquiry into the West London Tower block fire on the 14th of June 2017, which killed 72 people. Wrapped in highly combustible cladding and insulation, the building went up in an inferno during the night, while residents were sleeping in a block with no sprinklers, no communal fire alarms and failing fire doors.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
Grenfell United, a campaign group for victims and their families, released a statement saying the recommendations published today are basic safety principles that should already exist, highlighting how the government's roles, duties and obligations have been hollowed out by privatisation.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
Now, we've looked at this issue before on Pod Save the UK. Please do go back in our feed to find the episode with Peter Apps where we explored the depths of the failure here. But to discuss today's report, we're joined now by James Riding, Chief Reporter at Inside Housing, which has followed every step of the inquiry. Thanks for joining us, James.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
So the final report, it's been seven years in the making. All the evidence has been heard in public, but having read it in full, what has shocked you today, if anything?
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
Nonetheless, Culture Secretary Lisa Nandy has ordered a probe into ticket surge pricing, saying we will include issues around the transparency and use of dynamic pricing, including the technology around queuing systems, which incentivize it in our forthcoming consultation on consumer protections for ticket resales, which I guess is her way of saying I will look back in anger and I will not roll with it.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
You talked earlier about the changes that could be implemented and how much that would affect the construction industry. Obviously, we are in the throes of a new Tory leadership race. And as it so happens, I came across James Cleverley talking about some of the things he would do. And he talked about cutting up red tape, talked about regulation.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
I think he even used Cameron's ideology, which was mentioned in Peter Abt's book, which is like, you know, for every rule brought in, we'll get rid of two. Do you think that this ideological pursuit of deregulation, cutting red tape, has a role? And is that also currently still gripping building projects despite having seen the tragedy of Grenfell?
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
Yeah. Did you get that?
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
And what about criminal ramifications for some of the actors involved in this?
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
Today on Pod Save the UK, we're back and so is Parliament. The Grenfell Inquiry reaches its conclusion and the Tory leadership hopefuls struggle for recognition. Plus, we're joined by Zoe Grunewald. Was that good? A little bit of European embellishment.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
My goodness me. I remember when we interviewed Peter Apps, one of the things he pointed out was that the story of Grenfell really lays bare the inequalities in society and whose lives matter more, who has more power, who has more influence.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
You know, so Leslie Thomas Casey, representing the survivors and victims' families, made the point that while Kensington and Chelsea is one of the smallest and richest boroughs, Grenfell's residents were overwhelmingly working class. He said the fire was inextricably linked with race. I'm just wondering, what did the report say on this?
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
I suppose it doesn't go so far as to use the word racist or institutional racism.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
James Riding, thank you so much for joining us on Podsafe the UK.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
Now, the Tory leadership race is in full swing, with leadership hopefuls launching their bids this week and the first elimination due after we record this afternoon. But according to a new poll from YouGov, most of the new Tory leadership hopefuls aren't very well known, with one significant outlier, Priti Patel.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
She's far better known than any of the other candidates, with 82% of those polled knowing her name, but perhaps for the wrong reasons.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
So the polling organisation More In Common have done some polling that kind of backs up what you said there. Voters essentially think that the Conservatives are weird.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
Okay, well, let's talk about Keir Starmer's theme song of the summer. He's not an Oasis fan. He's not living his brat girl summer. I can't imagine Keir Starmer listening to music. No. I think he just sits in silence. Our producers have written a joke here that I don't understand, but I'm going to read it. He's much more of a paramour, misery business kind of guy. Yeah, do you get that?
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
Getting a bit weird, isn't it? So do you think... I mean, surely the logical step is for them to just get a total nobody in. Like, wipe that slate clean. No?
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
So just for clarity for any of our listeners who are not familiar with what a Zempik is, a Zempik is a weight loss drug. It's traditionally prescribed on the NHS for people who are struggling to lose weight and who also have other comorbidities that would make a significant amount of holding weight dangerous for them. However, you can get it privately. There's been a run on
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
Coming back to that thought of, I've done a Zen pick, but I didn't enjoy it. Is it some sort of, I'm actually very hard? Is it? I'm so tough.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
I get that one, yeah.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
So as we record on Wednesday morning, we don't know who will be the first candidate to be knocked out, but let's take a moment of sympathy for Keir Starmer, whose top team apparently forgot to wish him a happy birthday this week. They could have made him a sombre cake. Apparently his daughters remembered they went to pick up a Siberian kitten from a local cat shelter to join Larry at number 10.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
It remains to be seen what colour it is. We would imagine probably grey. I find this story strange. I find it weird that it's in circulation. Did Did Starmer's team brief this out?
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
Right.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
So, yeah, no, new cat. I mean, if this story has been briefed out, I think they should have led with they wanted a puppy and he negotiated them down, which I think is a, they start off hopeful, get what you're given, which I think speaks to a wider philosophy. Starmer's also ordered a redecoration of number 10, leading to the removal of a portrait of Margaret Thatcher,
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
from the Iron Lady's former study, which according to his official biographer, the PM found unsettling. Right-wing media has been whipped up into an outrage about this. I mean, what are you thinking, Zoe?
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
There we go, I just came up with it.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
Sorry, sorry, I interrupted you. It just came to me in a moment of genius.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
So that is some of your bookings gone. I just hope you know that. And finally, to close the show, I have a retraction to make. So listeners to our episodes recorded at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival may recall that we had a brief conversation about the Baja Men's seminal song, Who Let the Dogs Out? You're familiar with it, right, Zoe? Yeah, I know the song.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
It's an iconic song. Basically, we were having a chat about like, oh, you know, when you're a kid, you thought it was about dogs. And then I mentioned, yeah, and then I found out, oh, it's so annoying because I wanted it to be about dogs, that it's actually slightly sexist. It refers to unattractive women being in a place. Who let these unattractive women in here? Who let these dogs out?
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
Certainly that's what I thought anyway. And then I was promptly corrected. That is not what the song is about.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
I think the reason we think that is because nasty men have been saying that phrase, who let the dogs out? And so we thought maybe that's what the song was about because of this being a sort of street insult. But in fact, the song is actually the other way around.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
It's told from the perspective of women at a party where some rowdy, rude and unpleasant men come in and ruin the party and they are the ones saying, who let the dogs out? So all along, it was actually... you know, maybe even a feminist track that got hijacked. And there I was participating in this misinformation.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
So I do want to issue a retraction, not least because, you know, it's the Baha men's biggest song. I'm sure they wouldn't like to be misrepresented. But also any man who sings that song in a derogatory way, you are wrong.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
It felt like that story was going that way. You really think that was a whole song about dogs? I don't know. That's nice. And that's it. Thank you for listening to Pod Save the UK. And thank you, Zoe Grunewald. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. We want to hear your thoughts as well, listeners. So please email us at psuk at reducedlistening.co.uk or drop us a voice note on WhatsApp.
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Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
Our number is 07494933444. Internationally, that's plus447494933444.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
Pod Save the UK is a reduced listening production for Crooked Media.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
Our theme music is by Vasilis Fotopoulos. Thanks to our engineer James Reynolds. The executive producers are Anushka Sharma, Tanya Hines, Dan Jackson and Madeleine Herringer with additional support from Ari Schwartz.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
But first, a tweet that really captures the nation's mood this week. Are you ready for it, Zoe? It's just two words. Nationalised Ticketmaster.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
Yeah, he's got... Sad, sombre expression. He genuinely looks like he's at a funeral. Part of me was thinking, who died? Was it Larry the cat? Who died? But he's actually just telling us that everything's going to be a lot worse. So what's the logic of making that announcement?
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
But speaking of very unpopular policies, one of the groups most likely to feel the pinch that Starmer is trailing here are pensioners. Before parliamentary recess, Chancellor Rachel Reeves announced the government's decision to restrict winter fuel payments of up to £300 to only those receiving pension credit. So the government has been on the defensive over their decision.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
They're chalking it up to the 22 billion black hole that Labour claims the previous government left them as a post-election gift. Here's leader of the Commons, Lucy Powell, defending the policy on BBC Breakfast.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
Well, the comment certainly attracted a lot of attention. Some economists, including Ben Zaranco from the IFS, told the FT that the comment was silly and that there may be political reason to try and keep Liz Truss in the imagination of the British public, but this is not a helpful contribution. So is it just politics? More politicking.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
That's one of the earliest policies is you're going to go for pensioners, already one of the most vulnerable groups. Like I get that there's obviously generational wealth inequality, but there are working class pensioners, there are pensioners in poverty.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
And it's not like, you know, at the moment, the threshold is if they get £11,300 a year incoming from their pensions, they will not be eligible for winter fuel. That's not that much money. You know, like with the cost of everything being as it is. So I don't think they can say they're not putting some pensioners into poverty. And that all feels very Tory, doesn't it?
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
I know you're saying it's a group of people and perhaps it might be a minority. It's unclear to me how many people are going to be affected. I know they're talking about reforming the way pension credit is administered and perhaps people that might fall in the net might not in the end.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
But I do think there's also something about like, you know, we've been talking a lot about the feeling of hope and the feeling of security and those things that you want from a government, particularly from a Labour government. I was having a chat with a neighbour of mine He's in his 90s now, and he's obviously been retired and been on a pension for ages, over 20 years, right?
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
Okay, that's fine, that's fine. I also didn't get tickets, not because I wouldn't enjoy it. Who doesn't love singing their heart out? And, you know, I'm of the age where I do appreciate the Britpop. But I just had this moment where I was like, I'm going to leave this for the real fans. And there are plenty of them.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
And so he was saying that when you first go onto your pension, you get told how much you're going to get. But what you can never anticipate is how much prices will increase for everything. At the time, you might think, well, hey, that's fantastic. And then 15 years later, you've got no means of earning more. And that feeling of... Being scared, being afraid, worrying about stuff.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
That is a feeling that, you know, many families, younger people have experienced. I've experienced it in my own life. I don't really wish it upon anyone. So I don't really see how more people experiencing that is an improvement.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
It is half sold. They saw you coming, I think. Yeah, exactly. So here's a topic that's going to split opinion, but is probably good for the health of the nation. The government has announced that it is considering a smoking ban in outdoor venues and pub gardens. Here's Starmer arguing for the consideration on Sky News.
Pod Save the UK
Time to nationalise Ticketmaster? “Cigarettes & Alcohol”, the Grenfell Inquiry concludes
So the proposal has been met with praise from healthcare organisations while lobby groups for pubs and nightlife are concerned about the effect on hospitality. Unsurprisingly, conservative media has gone into overdrive, calling the proposal absurd and accusing the government of creating a nanny state. Zoe, what are you thinking? You're into this, aren't you?
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
It's just how politics works. You know, a friend wanted to give me a dress. So I, you know, it was very nice because people don't trust politicians. They don't trust their motivations. And when there's those personal donations, I don't know how they can't see how that undermines their message.
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
Again, it feels like it's playing into that narrative of there's one rule for politicians and another rule for everyone else. And Labour should be particularly hot on that.
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
I mean, potentially. I mean, take Lord Ali. I mean, he is not only a big donor for the Labour Party, but he also works, you know, he's a peer. He does campaigning for Labour. I mean, he says he loves Labour and that's why he wanted to make these donations. If that's true, then the party's saying to him, we don't really want to take any more of your money in a personal capacity. Yeah.
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
He should be like, yeah, great. Whatever helps you guys stay in power, right? If there are donors who are like, well, that's going to make our relationship very difficult, then... That proves exactly why they shouldn't have a relationship with him.
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
Somebody made a comment. It was a Labour advisor. I can't remember who. Somebody was saying these were very particular glasses with a special blue light filter that helps him read the autocue. And I thought, oh, come on. Like, come on. My glasses provider add the blue light thing for like 80 quid. And obviously I say no because I don't want to spend that money.
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
Yeah, I love blue light.
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
I would say they were definitely making a concerted effort to be more hopeful, a bit more jolly, a bit less gloomy. You know, I wasn't quite sure about the slogan, change begins, because as you say, that speech in the Rose Garden where it was like, things are going to get pretty bad.
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
Yeah, and it's like, that's beginning right now. It's like, oh no, more terrible things. But I mean, you could really tell they were trying to make an effort to inject a little bit of that sort of 1997 vibe hopeful, you know, vibe to conference.
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
And that was really shown, I think, in Rachel Reeves' speech where she had this big kind of smile plastered on her face, which I actually found in moments a little bit creepy. But I think with Starmer's speech, it started off A little bit slow, a little bit disparate. You know, he struggles to tell a story, I think. It sometimes feels like he's kind of moving all over the place.
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Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
But as he went on, he warmed up. And there were moments where I think he spoke with quite a lot of passion.
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
Not really. I think he is... practical, pragmatic, and sort of like a boring public service. It's pretty dull, but that's kind of part of his appeal. The problem is when you are trying to keep the country with you for a decade, that's what they want, a decade of national renewal, you do have to tell a bit of a story and you do have to inspire them and excite them.
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
And I think Labour's depending a lot on delivery. They just want to be able to say in five years' time when the public go back to vote, look at all these things we've achieved.
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
That's great. But is it enough? You know, you look at the US, you look at Biden, Biden actually delivered quite a lot, but he's still, you know, still in trouble. So it's not just delivery. It's also a time where, you know, the country doesn't trust politicians and is quite divided on certain issues.
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
I think you need to offer a little bit more than just, look, there are, you know, cranes in the sky and planning reform and, you know, You know, it has to be a little bit more, I think, for the average person to feel that their changes are materially different.
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
it was almost as if he was trying to reframe the immigration debate as a kind of left-wing argument against free markets. So, you know, he made this argument that net migration is too high and that, you know, he was saying it's a legitimate thing for people to think. And it was funny, he kind of pointed to
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Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
sort of Boris Johnson years and the sort of last five years of Tory governance, where net migration figures really went up because they relaxed rules on visas. And he was basically suggesting that the Tories let the market define policy and politics. And actually, it's more sort of left wing, it's more statist to have a government that wants to kind of control its borders.
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Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
Hello.
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Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
I think what was good was that he made the case for asylum. You know, he said, if you want tighter laws on immigration, you have to accept that there are going to be people here who have legitimate claims to asylum and should have those accepted.
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Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
Not so fresh from conference.
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
And I think that almost made me wonder if, you know, we could see something like safe and legal routes coming eventually, because it was actually a fairly assertive case for asylum where, you know, actually the party had been quite scared to even talk about that before.
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Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
But I think what would have been nice if he'd made a stronger case for the benefits of immigration that we've seen, you know, how it has enriched the country culturally, how it's enriched the country economically.
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
How was it? It was corporate. I think there is a perception that Labour Party conference is one of the more fun conferences. And this year felt so actually overrun with business people, in my opinion. I mean, it was very crowded. All the fringe events were standing room only. There were lots of, you know, men in suits patrolling, which, you know, isn't unusual for a political conference.
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
It's almost like he was trying to placate various sections.
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
And it undermines that sort of moment of actually making the case for asylum. That is hidden in all these other statements. And when you focus a lot of your speech on immigration on how it needs to come down... arguably you are giving credence to the argument that there is something wrong with immigration and therefore immigrants.
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
So I think some of this, again, is signalling to the right. So, you know, this argument that part of the thing with Keir Starmer is I feel like You can almost kind of understand why Labour might have felt that it needed to shift rightward slightly to get elected.
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
But it felt particularly busy this year, I'd say. And perhaps not as kind of grassrootsy, lively, young as Labour Party conference might have once have been.
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
And I think a lot of people kind of gave the party maybe a little bit of lenience because they understand that there was a group of voters they wanted to grab who were disenchanted Tory voters. But the problem is they're now in government and they have five years. And, you know, you can look at approval ratings and all of that, but actually they have five years left.
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
this is time for some brave decisions. And it feels like Labour is still, for some reason, signalling to the right, even though it doesn't really need the support of the right anymore.
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
They can be braver here. And, you know, what is Labour for if it's not for standing up for the rights of not only working people, but people who need the support of the state? Labour is supposed to be the party of the state. So when you're talking, even in a passing comment about going after benefit fraud,
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
when there are so many other issues of corruption and wasted money, especially when you are running a government that has DWP, the Department for Work and Pensions, in there that we know is simply not fit for purpose. We know that the incompetencies of DWP and its inefficiencies have actually led to worsening people's sickness, to some deaths.
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
definitely to make life a lot harder for vulnerable people.
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
Also, who are, you know, young party members. I mean, not that age makes a difference, but those... you know, it's actually, it's difficult to engage young people in politics.
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
Yes. Yeah. I mean, it is the case that, That for a long time, politicians have been doing things like this. And it is above board in the sense that if you declare it in your register of interests, then that's within the rules. Now, should we be having a conversation about whether that should happen? Yes, we probably should. And arguably, Labour are the right party to do that.
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
They made restoring public service a whole chapter in their manifesto. They... saw how actually sleaze scandals can bring entire governments down under Boris Johnson. Keir Starmer, you know, he is the law and order guy. He is former director of public prosecutions. He absolutely could have made this his whole thing. I am going to restore your trust. We're going to be squeaky clean.
Pod Save the UK
Can Starmer’s upbeat note drown out the donation scandal? w/ Zoë Grünewald and Simon Kuper
We're going to do everything with just public service in mind. What they should have done, I think, is they should have seen this, seen how the public were responding and say, you're right. And I think we're going to have a look at the rules and we're going to change them. They shouldn't be saying, it's fine. Everyone does it. We've been doing it for ages. The opposition have done it.