Travis Kalanick

Absolutely. I'll mention it three or four times. I'll give you the props. You don't have to do it for yourself anymore.

Absolutely. I'll mention it three or four times. I'll give you the props. You don't have to do it for yourself anymore.

But real quick, Sax, you've got you've got an open source model and the white paper they put out there is very specific about what they did to make it and sort of the results they got out of it. I don't think they give the training data, but you could start to stress test what they've already put out there and see if you can do it cheap, essentially.

But real quick, Sax, you've got you've got an open source model and the white paper they put out there is very specific about what they did to make it and sort of the results they got out of it. I don't think they give the training data, but you could start to stress test what they've already put out there and see if you can do it cheap, essentially.

Yeah, I mean, the high level for it, the way to think about it is it's about the future of food. What does the future of food look like? You go, well, in 100 years, we'll start way out there. In 100 years, you're going to have very high quality food, very low cost. that's incredibly convenient. And there are going to be machines that make it. There are going to be machines that get it to you.

Yeah, I mean, the high level for it, the way to think about it is it's about the future of food. What does the future of food look like? You go, well, in 100 years, we'll start way out there. In 100 years, you're going to have very high quality food, very low cost. that's incredibly convenient. And there are going to be machines that make it. There are going to be machines that get it to you.

And it's going to be exactly to your dietary preferences, your food preferences, et cetera. And it just comes to you. And it's so inexpensive that it approaches or has surpassed the cost of going to the grocery store. That's more of like a today analogy. So you go, 100 years, of course, that's the thing. Nobody's going to be making food. What about 20? What about 10?

And it's going to be exactly to your dietary preferences, your food preferences, et cetera. And it just comes to you. And it's so inexpensive that it approaches or has surpassed the cost of going to the grocery store. That's more of like a today analogy. So you go, 100 years, of course, that's the thing. Nobody's going to be making food. What about 20? What about 10?

And so the company is real estate, software, and robotics that's all about the future of food. And if you can get the quality there and you can get that cost down to start approaching the cost of going to the grocery store, you do to the kitchen what Uber did to the car. And that's the thing. And it's like a grind. It's like bits and atoms in the Uber world.

And so the company is real estate, software, and robotics that's all about the future of food. And if you can get the quality there and you can get that cost down to start approaching the cost of going to the grocery store, you do to the kitchen what Uber did to the car. And that's the thing. And it's like a grind. It's like bits and atoms in the Uber world.

When you say they, who are you referring to, Sax? Microsoft.

When you say they, who are you referring to, Sax? Microsoft.

You guys have a buddy who has R1 on his laptop, you know? Yeah, exactly.

You guys have a buddy who has R1 on his laptop, you know? Yeah, exactly.

But guys, what it would take to distill a one, like brute force, it wouldn't be like, oh, geez, I can't believe it was distilled. It would be like such a massive number of calls against an API or against something. Something. That it wouldn't be unnoticed.

But guys, what it would take to distill a one, like brute force, it wouldn't be like, oh, geez, I can't believe it was distilled. It would be like such a massive number of calls against an API or against something. Something. That it wouldn't be unnoticed.

No, no, but they're always doing that. That's constant. You're always doing that. That's like the old school. Go ahead, Zach.

No, no, but they're always doing that. That's constant. You're always doing that. That's like the old school. Go ahead, Zach.

Because you need to test your model against theirs anyways.

Because you need to test your model against theirs anyways.

This is like five times more atoms per bit. This is like heavy duty industrial stuff. Probably more along the lines of like, you know, where Elon goes and some of his companies, like they're super interesting tech, but you've got to grind out those atoms.

This is like five times more atoms per bit. This is like heavy duty industrial stuff. Probably more along the lines of like, you know, where Elon goes and some of his companies, like they're super interesting tech, but you've got to grind out those atoms.

Here's the other side, and totally agree, Chamath, but here's the other side. You go through the white paper, you see what it is they did, what they innovated on, the science behind it, the thoroughness. And you're like, these guys are badass. They're badass. It does not feel or sound like somebody who took something just when you get through it.

Here's the other side, and totally agree, Chamath, but here's the other side. You go through the white paper, you see what it is they did, what they innovated on, the science behind it, the thoroughness. And you're like, these guys are badass. They're badass. It does not feel or sound like somebody who took something just when you get through it.

It could be that OpenAI wrote the white paper for them, just putting it out there. But it's real innovative. I agree with that. Real innovation. Strong tech. You're like, this is legit. I agree with that.

It could be that OpenAI wrote the white paper for them, just putting it out there. But it's real innovative. I agree with that. Real innovation. Strong tech. You're like, this is legit. I agree with that.

Look, people will cook in the future as a hobby. I make a joke at the office. I'm like, I like horses. I love horses, but I don't ride a horse to work. And it's going to be a little bit like that. Whereas you can cook. It's a soulful thing to do. It's just very human. But, you know, it's late, you know, mom gets home late from the office, needs to get the kids, you know, a nutritious meal.

Look, people will cook in the future as a hobby. I make a joke at the office. I'm like, I like horses. I love horses, but I don't ride a horse to work. And it's going to be a little bit like that. Whereas you can cook. It's a soulful thing to do. It's just very human. But, you know, it's late, you know, mom gets home late from the office, needs to get the kids, you know, a nutritious meal.

Embrace and extend.

Embrace and extend.

Oh, I'm getting so excited. Look, I think the first degree out is it's what you got, is there a wrapper company? Okay, so of course, maybe those companies already exist. And then is there a tools company, right? So in a funny way, even though Facebook could be the wrapper, they have a tools business

Oh, I'm getting so excited. Look, I think the first degree out is it's what you got, is there a wrapper company? Okay, so of course, maybe those companies already exist. And then is there a tools company, right? So in a funny way, even though Facebook could be the wrapper, they have a tools business

that DeepSeek is basically challenging going full open source and putting something out there that's really good. And what has to happen is Meta has to decide, we are going to embrace and extend this. We're going to make sure that all the developers come to us, that all the cool applications get built here. So I think it's like there's a tools business and then there's the wrapper business.

that DeepSeek is basically challenging going full open source and putting something out there that's really good. And what has to happen is Meta has to decide, we are going to embrace and extend this. We're going to make sure that all the developers come to us, that all the cool applications get built here. So I think it's like there's a tools business and then there's the wrapper business.

um and then you know look when ai here's the one thing on the nvidia thing that i would counter with a little bit of what's been said here is like when ai gets cheap you know what's going to happen guys there's going to be a lot more ai right i don't think i think the price elasticity on this one is actually positive so as the price goes down That's right.

um and then you know look when ai here's the one thing on the nvidia thing that i would counter with a little bit of what's been said here is like when ai gets cheap you know what's going to happen guys there's going to be a lot more ai right i don't think i think the price elasticity on this one is actually positive so as the price goes down That's right.

She doesn't have to cook it now and she doesn't, she won't have to cook it and she won't have to go to McDonald's either. It will be high quality and convenient and low cost all at the same time. And yes, dietary preference, everything, because it'll be hyper personalized. Like the way the internet is in content, plus, plus, plus.

She doesn't have to cook it now and she doesn't, she won't have to cook it and she won't have to go to McDonald's either. It will be high quality and convenient and low cost all at the same time. And yes, dietary preference, everything, because it'll be hyper personalized. Like the way the internet is in content, plus, plus, plus.

The revenue usage, everything's going to go up. Goes through the roof. This is the history of tech forever. Since like Bill Gates said, I don't know what to do with more than 64 kilobytes of memory.

The revenue usage, everything's going to go up. Goes through the roof. This is the history of tech forever. Since like Bill Gates said, I don't know what to do with more than 64 kilobytes of memory.

And so then you're like, okay, AI is like... You know, it's going to get cheap. It's going to be oil, but it's also going to be specialized for different tasks.

And so then you're like, okay, AI is like... You know, it's going to get cheap. It's going to be oil, but it's also going to be specialized for different tasks.

Like you're going to start getting into nuances of like, what is the investor AI look like? What is the autonomous car AI look like? What is the Google search? I'm trying to figure some shit out. The lawyer, the accountant, the pilot. So it could go vertical and siloed, siloed air quotes, but you understand what I'm saying.

Like you're going to start getting into nuances of like, what is the investor AI look like? What is the autonomous car AI look like? What is the Google search? I'm trying to figure some shit out. The lawyer, the accountant, the pilot. So it could go vertical and siloed, siloed air quotes, but you understand what I'm saying.

in terms of your specific preferences for what you want i mean you've got these computers rocking oh these robots rocking i think in philly somewhere uh in the lab where they're making bowls yeah i mean we're out of the lab at this point we have our machine so we have a machine called a bowl builder that basically makes different cuisine types with bowls so like think of like

in terms of your specific preferences for what you want i mean you've got these computers rocking oh these robots rocking i think in philly somewhere uh in the lab where they're making bowls yeah i mean we're out of the lab at this point we have our machine so we have a machine called a bowl builder that basically makes different cuisine types with bowls so like think of like

Okay. So look, I had this thing. I'm going back almost 10 years here. Uber day, we're running Uber China. And I mean, I cannot, there's no way I could express the frenetic intensity of copying that they would do on everything that we would roll out in China. And it was so epically intense that I basically had a massive, amount of respect for their ability to copy what we did.

Okay. So look, I had this thing. I'm going back almost 10 years here. Uber day, we're running Uber China. And I mean, I cannot, there's no way I could express the frenetic intensity of copying that they would do on everything that we would roll out in China. And it was so epically intense that I basically had a massive, amount of respect for their ability to copy what we did.

I just couldn't believe it. We would do real hard work, make it, we'd dial it and it would be epic and it would be awesome. We'd roll it out and then like two weeks later, They've got it. A week later, boom, they've got it. And of course, I use that to drive our team. And there's so many great stories. I mean, we had like 400 Chinese nationals in Silicon Valley at our offices in San Francisco.

I just couldn't believe it. We would do real hard work, make it, we'd dial it and it would be epic and it would be awesome. We'd roll it out and then like two weeks later, They've got it. A week later, boom, they've got it. And of course, I use that to drive our team. And there's so many great stories. I mean, we had like 400 Chinese nationals in Silicon Valley at our offices in San Francisco.

We had a whole floor for the China growth team, and it was primarily Chinese nationals. We had billboards on the 101 in Silicon Valley in Chinese. Uber billboards to join our team in Chinese to serve the homeland, right? It was like an all-out war. It was really epic. It was epic. And by the way, when you went to that floor in our office, you were in China. Like they rolled China style.

We had a whole floor for the China growth team, and it was primarily Chinese nationals. We had billboards on the 101 in Silicon Valley in Chinese. Uber billboards to join our team in Chinese to serve the homeland, right? It was like an all-out war. It was really epic. It was epic. And by the way, when you went to that floor in our office, you were in China. Like they rolled China style.

Like the desks were literally smaller. Like the density of the space, it was China, okay? So, but what happens is when you get really, really good at copying and that time gets tighter and tighter and tighter and tighter and tighter, you eventually run out of things to copy. And then it flips- To creativity. To creativity and innovation.

Like the desks were literally smaller. Like the density of the space, it was China, okay? So, but what happens is when you get really, really good at copying and that time gets tighter and tighter and tighter and tighter and tighter, you eventually run out of things to copy. And then it flips- To creativity. To creativity and innovation.

We're not working with these brands specifically, but I'll just sort of, it's a good analogy. Like think of Chipotle or Kava or sweet green, or you get the idea. We created test brands that were like those things and built the machine at the same time as we were building an actual restaurant. And we built that restaurant to prove that the machine works.

We're not working with these brands specifically, but I'll just sort of, it's a good analogy. Like think of Chipotle or Kava or sweet green, or you get the idea. We created test brands that were like those things and built the machine at the same time as we were building an actual restaurant. And we built that restaurant to prove that the machine works.

Now at the beginning, you know, it's sort of all over the place. Like the kind of innovation when it was new, it was like, what? You know, you're like, really? But as they exercise that muscle- It gets better and better and better. So if you want to know about the future of food, like online food delivery, you don't go to New York City. You go to Shanghai.

Now at the beginning, you know, it's sort of all over the place. Like the kind of innovation when it was new, it was like, what? You know, you're like, really? But as they exercise that muscle- It gets better and better and better. So if you want to know about the future of food, like online food delivery, you don't go to New York City. You go to Shanghai.

Here's an example. If you went to offices like, let's say, Shanghai, Beijing, any of the major cities, Hangzhou, et cetera, the office buildings have hundreds of lockers around their perimeter. So that everything that you get, whether it be food or anything else, but especially food, is just the couriers drop them off in these lockers at the office buildings.

Here's an example. If you went to offices like, let's say, Shanghai, Beijing, any of the major cities, Hangzhou, et cetera, the office buildings have hundreds of lockers around their perimeter. So that everything that you get, whether it be food or anything else, but especially food, is just the couriers drop them off in these lockers at the office buildings.

And then there are a whole other set of people that are sort of like inter-office runners that then bring it to your office. As an example, and when you see it, you're like, and it's epically efficient. And they're taking advantage of their economics on labor and things like this. It wouldn't exactly work that way here. But a lot of the innovation you will see coming out of Uber Eats or DoorDash

And then there are a whole other set of people that are sort of like inter-office runners that then bring it to your office. As an example, and when you see it, you're like, and it's epically efficient. And they're taking advantage of their economics on labor and things like this. It wouldn't exactly work that way here. But a lot of the innovation you will see coming out of Uber Eats or DoorDash

like the stuff that's coming out now is stuff that existed three years ago, four years ago in China, maybe longer. So like eventually you cross that threshold of copying and you are innovating and then you're leading. And I think we see that in a whole bunch of different places.

like the stuff that's coming out now is stuff that existed three years ago, four years ago in China, maybe longer. So like eventually you cross that threshold of copying and you are innovating and then you're leading. And I think we see that in a whole bunch of different places.

Well, look, we Okay, so we got a couple things. So we have in every one of our facilities, and we've got, you know, hundreds of them will have lockers there.

Well, look, we Okay, so we got a couple things. So we have in every one of our facilities, and we've got, you know, hundreds of them will have lockers there.

So the courier then waves their phone in front of a camera, the right locker pops open, they get the food from there, and they go, the courier pickup is asynchronous from production of food, you know, you don't have lines anymore, there's no more lines, which then speeds up delivery, shortens the amount of time shortens is reduces how much money you spend on couriers.

So the courier then waves their phone in front of a camera, the right locker pops open, they get the food from there, and they go, the courier pickup is asynchronous from production of food, you know, you don't have lines anymore, there's no more lines, which then speeds up delivery, shortens the amount of time shortens is reduces how much money you spend on couriers.

And we've got a whole other thing. This doesn't work. It probably wouldn't work in China because, well, for a lot of reasons, but let me explain what it is. It's called Picnic, where if you are in an office building, you order food, you go to a website, you order whatever it is from 100 different restaurants. Those restaurants happen to be in my facilities.

And we've got a whole other thing. This doesn't work. It probably wouldn't work in China because, well, for a lot of reasons, but let me explain what it is. It's called Picnic, where if you are in an office building, you order food, you go to a website, you order whatever it is from 100 different restaurants. Those restaurants happen to be in my facilities.

There'll be one courier that goes to one of our facilities and picks up 50 orders at a time, brings it to an office, puts it, there's a shelf on every floor. You get notified when your food arrives, and it arrives the same time every day, and you just go to the shelf, get it on your floor, and dip it right back into your meeting.

There'll be one courier that goes to one of our facilities and picks up 50 orders at a time, brings it to an office, puts it, there's a shelf on every floor. You get notified when your food arrives, and it arrives the same time every day, and you just go to the shelf, get it on your floor, and dip it right back into your meeting.

Saving people time at the office, giving them selection on food, especially in food deserts, but even going, like there's a Sweetgreen right down there in my office right now, I can say 20 minutes by just using our own service versus doing that. And you get it at the same price because the courier economics, the courier is delivering 50 orders at a time. So courier costs go basically to zero.

Saving people time at the office, giving them selection on food, especially in food deserts, but even going, like there's a Sweetgreen right down there in my office right now, I can say 20 minutes by just using our own service versus doing that. And you get it at the same price because the courier economics, the courier is delivering 50 orders at a time. So courier costs go basically to zero.

Then we have our customers now touring, checking it out. We're rolling out with five customers in April. They're using the machine and the way it will, the way it's going to go down is they will come into, and we, of course we have the real estate. So we have kitchens, you know, tens of thousands of kitchens around the world. They will come into one of our kitchens in a facility.

Then we have our customers now touring, checking it out. We're rolling out with five customers in April. They're using the machine and the way it will, the way it's going to go down is they will come into, and we, of course we have the real estate. So we have kitchens, you know, tens of thousands of kitchens around the world. They will come into one of our kitchens in a facility.

It's a delivery only restaurant. They'll prep the food in the morning and then they will leave. And the machine will, if you will order online, DoorDash, Uber Eats, et cetera, they'll order online the way they do. Build your own bowl exactly as you want. And the bowl gets all the ingredients dispensed, hot or cold, sauce, et cetera, gets lidded. The bowl goes into a bag.

It's a delivery only restaurant. They'll prep the food in the morning and then they will leave. And the machine will, if you will order online, DoorDash, Uber Eats, et cetera, they'll order online the way they do. Build your own bowl exactly as you want. And the bowl gets all the ingredients dispensed, hot or cold, sauce, et cetera, gets lidded. The bowl goes into a bag.

Okay, so I need to bust a myth. I did not take money from Masa. So he begged me to take money for years and we did not take it because he is a – what's the word I'm looking for? I don't know. He's a promiscuous investor. So once he invests in you, you should probably count on him using your information and investing in all of your competitors. At least that's historically what he's done.

Okay, so I need to bust a myth. I did not take money from Masa. So he begged me to take money for years and we did not take it because he is a – what's the word I'm looking for? I don't know. He's a promiscuous investor. So once he invests in you, you should probably count on him using your information and investing in all of your competitors. At least that's historically what he's done.

So I didn't go there. But then he just kept investing in all my competitors and they kept subsidizing these markets. And then I'm like, maybe I should have just saturated, soaked up the money that was there.

So I didn't go there. But then he just kept investing in all my competitors and they kept subsidizing these markets. And then I'm like, maybe I should have just saturated, soaked up the money that was there.

So one of the things you should think about when you look at like, oh, is OpenAI taking a lot of money from a MASA type situation is it's a little bit of like a double-edged sword, is if you don't take that money, it goes somewhere else. But if you do take that money, just know that

So one of the things you should think about when you look at like, oh, is OpenAI taking a lot of money from a MASA type situation is it's a little bit of like a double-edged sword, is if you don't take that money, it goes somewhere else. But if you do take that money, just know that

Whatever intelligence they get when they go through the process of giving you the money and maybe hanging around the board or who knows what is going to be used to do other things. And that is the nature of the MASA machine. So you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. But you got to pick.

Whatever intelligence they get when they go through the process of giving you the money and maybe hanging around the board or who knows what is going to be used to do other things. And that is the nature of the MASA machine. So you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. But you got to pick.

And if the money's going and it's flowing and access to capital is a strategic competitive weapon or advantage, you must play ball. Yeah. Now, we did stuff with the Saudis before even Vision Fund existed. They stroked a $3.5 billion check when that was the biggest thing that ever happened. So we were okay with not having the MASA money, but that MASA money then went to all of our competitors.

And if the money's going and it's flowing and access to capital is a strategic competitive weapon or advantage, you must play ball. Yeah. Now, we did stuff with the Saudis before even Vision Fund existed. They stroked a $3.5 billion check when that was the biggest thing that ever happened. So we were okay with not having the MASA money, but that MASA money then went to all of our competitors.

Well, look, I think this goes to some of the things that Shamath is saying, which is like if constraint is the mother of invention or whatever that euphemism is, the aphorism is, if that's the case, you get into a real weird spot when you get over- Capitalized.

Well, look, I think this goes to some of the things that Shamath is saying, which is like if constraint is the mother of invention or whatever that euphemism is, the aphorism is, if that's the case, you get into a real weird spot when you get over- Capitalized.

In the Uber model, the war was subsidizing rides for market share, essentially being the wrapper for transportation and using the parlance we were using earlier in this discussion. So it was necessary. You're screwed if you don't. The question is, do you get to this place of overcapitalized, too big, too bureaucratic, too loose, too weak, too soft?

In the Uber model, the war was subsidizing rides for market share, essentially being the wrapper for transportation and using the parlance we were using earlier in this discussion. So it was necessary. You're screwed if you don't. The question is, do you get to this place of overcapitalized, too big, too bureaucratic, too loose, too weak, too soft?

When you have an open source model that's very smart and it's a thousand flowers blooming, lots of innovation happening everywhere, could be an overwhelming force. Now, I think there's going to be different sectors treated different ways where like going full stack in certain industry sectors is going to matter.

When you have an open source model that's very smart and it's a thousand flowers blooming, lots of innovation happening everywhere, could be an overwhelming force. Now, I think there's going to be different sectors treated different ways where like going full stack in certain industry sectors is going to matter.

The utensils go into the bag. The bag is sealed, and then it comes out on a conveyor belt. And machine gets the bag. It goes to the front of the facility. It gets put into a locker. That locker then is sitting there. DoorDash Uber Eats driver comes, waves their phone with an app in front of a camera, and it pops open the locker that has the food that you're supposed to get.

The utensils go into the bag. The bag is sealed, and then it comes out on a conveyor belt. And machine gets the bag. It goes to the front of the facility. It gets put into a locker. That locker then is sitting there. DoorDash Uber Eats driver comes, waves their phone with an app in front of a camera, and it pops open the locker that has the food that you're supposed to get.

And then in other places having like a very sort of chaotic, everybody does a little slice. It's going to be okay in other places. And I think we could probably spend days or hundreds of dozens of hours just talking about the nuances there.

And then in other places having like a very sort of chaotic, everybody does a little slice. It's going to be okay in other places. And I think we could probably spend days or hundreds of dozens of hours just talking about the nuances there.

Well, I take Washington Post off that list, but yes.

Well, I take Washington Post off that list, but yes.

The New York Times comes off the list too.

The New York Times comes off the list too.

Jason, you're such an old school copyright guy. You're such an old school media guy, by the way.

Jason, you're such an old school copyright guy. You're such an old school media guy, by the way.

So like, if you're, if you're a restaurateur, you're the grind of the on demand meal, which is the restaurant world goes away, you basically prep. And that's asynchronous from when people order food, the machine does the final assembly, or what's known as plating, essentially.

So like, if you're, if you're a restaurateur, you're the grind of the on demand meal, which is the restaurant world goes away, you basically prep. And that's asynchronous from when people order food, the machine does the final assembly, or what's known as plating, essentially.

Yeah. I mean, here's the thing, guys. At some point, the amount of data becomes the long pole in the tent. At some point, the quality of the algorithms becomes a long pole in the tent and more compute is not going to change that. I don't think we're there yet.

Yeah. I mean, here's the thing, guys. At some point, the amount of data becomes the long pole in the tent. At some point, the quality of the algorithms becomes a long pole in the tent and more compute is not going to change that. I don't think we're there yet.

That's the one thing that counters the cheap AI means more AI is, is there enough data and or algorithms to make the more AI, to make it work? And I do agree with the siloing it and getting expert and getting better in these ways. But I think this is an interesting sort of trade-off between some of these variables.

That's the one thing that counters the cheap AI means more AI is, is there enough data and or algorithms to make the more AI, to make it work? And I do agree with the siloing it and getting expert and getting better in these ways. But I think this is an interesting sort of trade-off between some of these variables.

How do I get on this group chat? What's that about?

How do I get on this group chat? What's that about?

So first, what we do is we serve the restaurants. So Chamath, you'll be sharing your dietary preferences with Uber Eats or DoorDash or Sweetgreen or somebody. Like our customer promise at our company is we serve those who serve others. Or put another way is infrastructure for better food. So we are either the AWS or the NVIDIA or whatever you want to call it, but for food, if that makes sense.

So first, what we do is we serve the restaurants. So Chamath, you'll be sharing your dietary preferences with Uber Eats or DoorDash or Sweetgreen or somebody. Like our customer promise at our company is we serve those who serve others. Or put another way is infrastructure for better food. So we are either the AWS or the NVIDIA or whatever you want to call it, but for food, if that makes sense.

It's also inflationary. It's also inflationary, Dave. That's right. For sure.

It's also inflationary. It's also inflationary, Dave. That's right. For sure.

Look, this is really one of those interesting things where it's like the difference between legislature and executive branch is like Doge is really bringing it to life, is like what powers and controls does the executive branch have to spend and not to spend, and especially to not spend when it's been legislated to spend. This is where the action is.

Look, this is really one of those interesting things where it's like the difference between legislature and executive branch is like Doge is really bringing it to life, is like what powers and controls does the executive branch have to spend and not to spend, and especially to not spend when it's been legislated to spend. This is where the action is.

There's no law that says, you can give a bunch of folks eight months of severance and they're gone and you don't replace them. There's no law that says that. The executive branch, and again, I don't know the rules or laws about how they go about doing it, but let's say presumably they're doing this and there's some legal backing behind it.

There's no law that says, you can give a bunch of folks eight months of severance and they're gone and you don't replace them. There's no law that says that. The executive branch, and again, I don't know the rules or laws about how they go about doing it, but let's say presumably they're doing this and there's some legal backing behind it.

They just go and do it, and now they're not spending money. If it was really hard to hire people, and they could even make it harder to hire people, do they fight bureaucracy with bureaucracy that it's harder to spend, harder to hire people, harder to procure certain things that you're supposed to spend money on?

They just go and do it, and now they're not spending money. If it was really hard to hire people, and they could even make it harder to hire people, do they fight bureaucracy with bureaucracy that it's harder to spend, harder to hire people, harder to procure certain things that you're supposed to spend money on?

And you can reduce the spend through a lot of very interesting, nuanced rules that they're in control of.

And you can reduce the spend through a lot of very interesting, nuanced rules that they're in control of.

I mean, it'll be interesting to see if it's 5% or 10% on RTO. I mean, it could be a lot more. I mean, what I'm hearing about these buildings is that they are super, super empty, like next level empty. And let's just say I'm really glad I don't hold it. Like I'm an owner that has a bunch of leases to the federal government right now.

I mean, it'll be interesting to see if it's 5% or 10% on RTO. I mean, it could be a lot more. I mean, what I'm hearing about these buildings is that they are super, super empty, like next level empty. And let's just say I'm really glad I don't hold it. Like I'm an owner that has a bunch of leases to the federal government right now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We're behind the scenes. We're the infrastructure. And so you'll give your preferences.

We're behind the scenes. We're the infrastructure. And so you'll give your preferences.

Guys, just for kicks, check this out, right? If we took 2019 spend, right, the year before COVID, and put it up against 2024 revenues, $500 billion surplus. Wow. Bingo. That's crazy. Versus the $1.5 trillion deficit. Oh my God. So a $2 trillion swing on like a- In four years. Yeah, on a $4 trillion budget. That's all waste.

Guys, just for kicks, check this out, right? If we took 2019 spend, right, the year before COVID, and put it up against 2024 revenues, $500 billion surplus. Wow. Bingo. That's crazy. Versus the $1.5 trillion deficit. Oh my God. So a $2 trillion swing on like a- In four years. Yeah, on a $4 trillion budget. That's all waste.

I mean, guys, this is the thing. There's two deflationary things that we need. One is Doge, and two is where AI is going to take us if it really does its thing. And that will keep us in an okay spot economically. But this spend has to go, or we're in Greek territory, if that makes sense.

I mean, guys, this is the thing. There's two deflationary things that we need. One is Doge, and two is where AI is going to take us if it really does its thing. And that will keep us in an okay spot economically. But this spend has to go, or we're in Greek territory, if that makes sense.

That's really awesome. You just authenticate Apple Health. When these bowls come off the line, and see how I talk, it's like an assembly line. When these bowls come off the line, on... The label on the bowl is how many grams of every ingredient is in it, plus a picture of what it was before we put the lid in. That can be sent to the person while the bowl's on its way via a courier, right?

That's really awesome. You just authenticate Apple Health. When these bowls come off the line, and see how I talk, it's like an assembly line. When these bowls come off the line, on... The label on the bowl is how many grams of every ingredient is in it, plus a picture of what it was before we put the lid in. That can be sent to the person while the bowl's on its way via a courier, right?

I mean, look, it's funny because, as you guys know, back in the day, 2015, 16, 17, we had our own autonomous vehicles out there. And I remember the first one of ours that I took. And I got in the back and all I had was a stop button, a big red stop button that I could push if things got weird. And I remember this was in Pittsburgh where we had our robotics division and autonomy division at Uber.

I mean, look, it's funny because, as you guys know, back in the day, 2015, 16, 17, we had our own autonomous vehicles out there. And I remember the first one of ours that I took. And I got in the back and all I had was a stop button, a big red stop button that I could push if things got weird. And I remember this was in Pittsburgh where we had our robotics division and autonomy division at Uber.

And I got out of that car and literally it's like I got off a roller coaster ride. Like my legs were, I could not stand straight. Like I was like a little wobbly because I was so freaked out and the adrenaline was pumping. you get in a Waymo today and it's like, you're not even thinking twice. You're just like, it's all good. You just get in, you get out. Now part of it's just the normalization.

And I got out of that car and literally it's like I got off a roller coaster ride. Like my legs were, I could not stand straight. Like I was like a little wobbly because I was so freaked out and the adrenaline was pumping. you get in a Waymo today and it's like, you're not even thinking twice. You're just like, it's all good. You just get in, you get out. Now part of it's just the normalization.

It's like, It's just working and that normalizing matters in terms of the psychology around it. We're just there. So it just works. Now, is it an optimized experience for ride sharing? No. Like the cyber cab is sort of the ultra sort of destination for what it means to get transported across a city in a vehicle that is not meant for a human to drive.

It's like, It's just working and that normalizing matters in terms of the psychology around it. We're just there. So it just works. Now, is it an optimized experience for ride sharing? No. Like the cyber cab is sort of the ultra sort of destination for what it means to get transported across a city in a vehicle that is not meant for a human to drive.

No steering wheel, folks potentially even facing each other, just a whole bunch of different formats. The technology works. We know that. There are different ways to get to the technology. I think that probably the most interesting thing that we should be – or one of the most interesting things to be thinking about, maybe there's a few. First is cheap AI makes cheap autonomy.

No steering wheel, folks potentially even facing each other, just a whole bunch of different formats. The technology works. We know that. There are different ways to get to the technology. I think that probably the most interesting thing that we should be – or one of the most interesting things to be thinking about, maybe there's a few. First is cheap AI makes cheap autonomy.

Okay, so if as cheap AI gets out there and proliferates and gets broadly distributed, we should expect autonomy gets easier and easier and easier. And you see some of the stuff that's happening with Tesla and FSD, their new models are like, I think in a three month period, they went up like 10x in terms of performance, meaning A number of miles per human intervention.

Okay, so if as cheap AI gets out there and proliferates and gets broadly distributed, we should expect autonomy gets easier and easier and easier. And you see some of the stuff that's happening with Tesla and FSD, their new models are like, I think in a three month period, they went up like 10x in terms of performance, meaning A number of miles per human intervention.

That's the thing that Elon's seeing right now because cheap AI, cheap good AI makes cheap good autonomy. And that's a thing we need to connect the dots on. I think the thing then you go one level past that, you're like, okay, there's the possibility literally that autonomy just gets easy and commoditized similar to what's happening to AI. The next part is, okay, you get the hardware.

That's the thing that Elon's seeing right now because cheap AI, cheap good AI makes cheap good autonomy. And that's a thing we need to connect the dots on. I think the thing then you go one level past that, you're like, okay, there's the possibility literally that autonomy just gets easy and commoditized similar to what's happening to AI. The next part is, okay, you get the hardware.

You're like, okay, manufacturing's hard. That's interesting. That could be a long pull in the tent. I think that could be a place where Tesla, of course, has huge advantage. You then look at who are Waymo's partners. Are they getting set up to do the right kind of manufacturing and get scale of cars out there?

You're like, okay, manufacturing's hard. That's interesting. That could be a long pull in the tent. I think that could be a place where Tesla, of course, has huge advantage. You then look at who are Waymo's partners. Are they getting set up to do the right kind of manufacturing and get scale of cars out there?

But then there's like this dark horse that nobody's talking about, which is it's called electricity. It's called power. And all these vehicles are electric vehicles. And if you said, yeah, I just did some like quick back of the envelope calcs. If all of the miles in California went EV ride sharing, you would need to double the energy capacity of California. Right.

But then there's like this dark horse that nobody's talking about, which is it's called electricity. It's called power. And all these vehicles are electric vehicles. And if you said, yeah, I just did some like quick back of the envelope calcs. If all of the miles in California went EV ride sharing, you would need to double the energy capacity of California. Right.

Let's not even talk about what it would take to double the energy capacity in the grid and things like that in California. Let's not even go there. Even getting 20% more, 10% more is going to be a gargantuan five to 10 year exercise. Look, I live in LA.

Let's not even talk about what it would take to double the energy capacity in the grid and things like that in California. Let's not even go there. Even getting 20% more, 10% more is going to be a gargantuan five to 10 year exercise. Look, I live in LA.

It's a nice area in LA and we have power outages all the freaking time because the grid is effed up and they're sort of upgrading it as things break. That's literally where we're at in LA, one of the most affluent neighborhoods in LA. That's just where we are. So I think the sort of the dark horse kind of hot take is combustion engine AVs.

It's a nice area in LA and we have power outages all the freaking time because the grid is effed up and they're sort of upgrading it as things break. That's literally where we're at in LA, one of the most affluent neighborhoods in LA. That's just where we are. So I think the sort of the dark horse kind of hot take is combustion engine AVs.

I think, look, I think like what we see with supply chains in a bunch of different industries, it's just going to get super wired up. Right now we're at the point of manufacturing, but what happens? So you go, okay, we're doing assembly. Then you go, okay, what about prep? Then you go further upstream and you're like, what about supply chain like Cisco, US Foods?

I think, look, I think like what we see with supply chains in a bunch of different industries, it's just going to get super wired up. Right now we're at the point of manufacturing, but what happens? So you go, okay, we're doing assembly. Then you go, okay, what about prep? Then you go further upstream and you're like, what about supply chain like Cisco, US Foods?

Because I don't know how you can go fast getting AV out there really, really, really massive with the electric grid as it is.

Because I don't know how you can go fast getting AV out there really, really, really massive with the electric grid as it is.

You know, I think similar to how you get normalized, it's like you're used to getting in a car. It's normalized psychologically and in the sort of public sphere, the public mindset, you get used to it. So like we're getting to a place where these vehicles are provably safer than human driven vehicles.

You know, I think similar to how you get normalized, it's like you're used to getting in a car. It's normalized psychologically and in the sort of public sphere, the public mindset, you get used to it. So like we're getting to a place where these vehicles are provably safer than human driven vehicles.

So yes, there are mistakes, but they're just provably safer and people are just getting used to it. And that's a big part of the cycle. So I think we're getting out of the hysteria and we're getting into like, yeah, it's just great. Like talk to people who are using it and they feel safer from, of course, like I feel like we're going to get in less accidents.

So yes, there are mistakes, but they're just provably safer and people are just getting used to it. And that's a big part of the cycle. So I think we're getting out of the hysteria and we're getting into like, yeah, it's just great. Like talk to people who are using it and they feel safer from, of course, like I feel like we're going to get in less accidents.

But also I feel safer because there's like there's less chance of like an interpersonal problem that does happen, especially, you know. Late at night, you know, when people are out partying and things like this, there's just like, there is a level of safety on many different aspects to these vehicles. For the driver, yeah.

But also I feel safer because there's like there's less chance of like an interpersonal problem that does happen, especially, you know. Late at night, you know, when people are out partying and things like this, there's just like, there is a level of safety on many different aspects to these vehicles. For the driver, yeah.

For the driver, no, it's for the, yeah, there's like, there's safety aspects across the board. Sure. Right.

For the driver, no, it's for the, yeah, there's like, there's safety aspects across the board. Sure. Right.

So look, I think the big issue you have with anything Chinese is will you be allowed to bring it in the US? Just period. You maybe kind of can now. What happens with tariffs? Will there be blocks in bringing this kind of technology into the US? What happens there? I think that's a whole thing. The bet that Uber makes is that

So look, I think the big issue you have with anything Chinese is will you be allowed to bring it in the US? Just period. You maybe kind of can now. What happens with tariffs? Will there be blocks in bringing this kind of technology into the US? What happens there? I think that's a whole thing. The bet that Uber makes is that

whether consciously or subconsciously, that it's like, will AI, will cheap democratized AI happen? And if so, does that make cheap democratized autonomy? Then you've got to line up your physical sort of hardware partners, the car manufacturers. Then you've got to say, okay, is the electricity where it's at? And are there other bets to make to make sure that I can charge my cars?

whether consciously or subconsciously, that it's like, will AI, will cheap democratized AI happen? And if so, does that make cheap democratized autonomy? Then you've got to line up your physical sort of hardware partners, the car manufacturers. Then you've got to say, okay, is the electricity where it's at? And are there other bets to make to make sure that I can charge my cars?

And then you go further up and you're like, well, how does the mechanization occur on farms and in agriculture? And then how does that all get wired up to serve the customer and sort of what they're looking for? So you really can know exactly what kind of wheat was put into that food. Whether it was organic for real or not, what was the actual field it came from? Things like this.

And then you go further up and you're like, well, how does the mechanization occur on farms and in agriculture? And then how does that all get wired up to serve the customer and sort of what they're looking for? So you really can know exactly what kind of wheat was put into that food. Whether it was organic for real or not, what was the actual field it came from? Things like this.

So like there is a huge real estate play here and fleet management play of like, how do I electrify these plots of land known as parking lots and also set them up so that robots can clean cars in sort of a very, very efficient way. There's like a whole, when we talk about- Fleet management, yeah.

So like there is a huge real estate play here and fleet management play of like, how do I electrify these plots of land known as parking lots and also set them up so that robots can clean cars in sort of a very, very efficient way. There's like a whole, when we talk about- Fleet management, yeah.

Greenland, let's go. So guys, I think there's a couple interesting things. One of them is going to be how are these companies thinking about real estate, electrifying that real estate in urban environments and roboticizing that real estate so that they can do the servicing, maintenance, et cetera. Look, I guess it could be manual for a while. But hold on.

Greenland, let's go. So guys, I think there's a couple interesting things. One of them is going to be how are these companies thinking about real estate, electrifying that real estate in urban environments and roboticizing that real estate so that they can do the servicing, maintenance, et cetera. Look, I guess it could be manual for a while. But hold on.

Okay. Let's just go down ride-sharing lane, autonomous ride-sharing lane. You go down that lane, car ownership, which is already dropping, drops like a knife all the way down. There's this thing in cities which takes up 20% to 30% of all the land. It's called parking. It's no longer necessary because cars are getting utilized.

Okay. Let's just go down ride-sharing lane, autonomous ride-sharing lane. You go down that lane, car ownership, which is already dropping, drops like a knife all the way down. There's this thing in cities which takes up 20% to 30% of all the land. It's called parking. It's no longer necessary because cars are getting utilized.

The cars that exist on the roads are getting utilized 15x more than they were before per car. So you need hypothetically 1 15th number of cars. Maybe you could say 1 5th or 1 10th because you want to be able to surge to like rush hour and things like that. It depends on what kind of carpooling and things like this that are going on. But let's just call it.

The cars that exist on the roads are getting utilized 15x more than they were before per car. So you need hypothetically 1 15th number of cars. Maybe you could say 1 5th or 1 10th because you want to be able to surge to like rush hour and things like that. It depends on what kind of carpooling and things like this that are going on. But let's just call it.

10X fewer cars, one-tenth the land necessary for parking, at least one-tenth. Maybe it's less than that. So now you're opening up 20% of the land in a city that just goes fallow.

10X fewer cars, one-tenth the land necessary for parking, at least one-tenth. Maybe it's less than that. So now you're opening up 20% of the land in a city that just goes fallow.

Well, look, I mean, maybe it's the- Should it be housing?

Well, look, I mean, maybe it's the- Should it be housing?

There's a massive amount of creativity to say, what can I do with that land with a high ROI? Some people are like, you're going to have farms, hydroponic farms in urban environments. I'm like,

There's a massive amount of creativity to say, what can I do with that land with a high ROI? Some people are like, you're going to have farms, hydroponic farms in urban environments. I'm like,

Yeah. So there's some interesting ideas. The land price has to really come crashing down, and there's interesting ramifications if it were to do that.

Yeah. So there's some interesting ideas. The land price has to really come crashing down, and there's interesting ramifications if it were to do that.

You're leading the witness.

You're leading the witness.

You can imagine really getting tight about supply chain as it relates to dietary stuff and as it relates to maha. Hell to the yes. I mean, I ordered a couple different – I went to RFK Jr. 's website and they have like the – he has merch. He has Maha merch. I have the green Maha merch hat. I should have worn it today. I'm all about it. Did you get the onesie? That's amazing.

You can imagine really getting tight about supply chain as it relates to dietary stuff and as it relates to maha. Hell to the yes. I mean, I ordered a couple different – I went to RFK Jr. 's website and they have like the – he has merch. He has Maha merch. I have the green Maha merch hat. I should have worn it today. I'm all about it. Did you get the onesie? That's amazing.

Right. But the crazy part is, is it could just be electricity production and electric capacity on the grid could be the gating factor that makes it a slow burn. Potentially. I'm just riffing here, guys. Right, right, right.

Right. But the crazy part is, is it could just be electricity production and electric capacity on the grid could be the gating factor that makes it a slow burn. Potentially. I'm just riffing here, guys. Right, right, right.

You go energy storage, electric grid upgrades, sort of modular energy capacity upgrades and production. This is going to be very, very important. Right now, if you want to, I mean, we do this all the time. We have, of course, facilities all over every major city in the US and really around the world.

You go energy storage, electric grid upgrades, sort of modular energy capacity upgrades and production. This is going to be very, very important. Right now, if you want to, I mean, we do this all the time. We have, of course, facilities all over every major city in the US and really around the world.

utility upgrades is the long pole in the tent in construction development in a lot of our cities, not all cities, but in a lot of our cities.

utility upgrades is the long pole in the tent in construction development in a lot of our cities, not all cities, but in a lot of our cities.

And then it's like, what are these auctions going to look like, guys? This is the thing we all got to believe.

And then it's like, what are these auctions going to look like, guys? This is the thing we all got to believe.

And Dave, it's like, it either does that or it really, really doesn't. Or it does like the exact super nasty, really bad. That's right.

And Dave, it's like, it either does that or it really, really doesn't. Or it does like the exact super nasty, really bad. That's right.

But the thing is, it's like that whole thing of like, it's going to get to five and a half before it comes down. It's like, it spirals on itself. It's like, you got to print money to then get to that place. And then the printing drives it for, you know, you get to that spiral.

But the thing is, it's like that whole thing of like, it's going to get to five and a half before it comes down. It's like, it spirals on itself. It's like, you got to print money to then get to that place. And then the printing drives it for, you know, you get to that spiral.

But Shamath, it just doesn't work like that, man. My thing is, I agree with the notion, but I just don't believe that any individual congressperson will take responsibility in this way.

But Shamath, it just doesn't work like that, man. My thing is, I agree with the notion, but I just don't believe that any individual congressperson will take responsibility in this way.

Yeah. Or put another way, again, the executive branch can slow roll spend in a lot of different ways.

Yeah. Or put another way, again, the executive branch can slow roll spend in a lot of different ways.

That was a lot of fun, guys. First time. It's my first time on a podcast ever.

That was a lot of fun, guys. First time. It's my first time on a podcast ever.

You were great.

You were great.

Appreciate it.

Appreciate it.

I love this.

I love this.

It's the classic, that's the classic artificial, artificial intelligence, right? This is like the mechanical Turk thing. I mean, look, here's the thing. Here's a little nuance that's super interesting about automation in QSR restaurants is that they have an existing brick and mortar that's built a certain way.

It's the classic, that's the classic artificial, artificial intelligence, right? This is like the mechanical Turk thing. I mean, look, here's the thing. Here's a little nuance that's super interesting about automation in QSR restaurants is that they have an existing brick and mortar that's built a certain way.

That layout is meant for humans and for those humans to work in certain processes in exact and very specific way. Every square inch of that kitchen and that space is dialed. When you go and put a machine like this in, it changes the whole thing.

That layout is meant for humans and for those humans to work in certain processes in exact and very specific way. Every square inch of that kitchen and that space is dialed. When you go and put a machine like this in, it changes the whole thing.

And so just to get going, you've got to like do, you've got to, like if you're to replace the front line at Chipotle, you've got to take out that front line. You've got to demo it.

And so just to get going, you've got to like do, you've got to, like if you're to replace the front line at Chipotle, you've got to take out that front line. You've got to demo it.

You've got to put in a new machine.

You've got to put in a new machine.

And so now it's like a huge amount of capex. My store's down for two to three months. And the economics start to not work. And by the way, I still have to have humans in that brick and mortar. And so, you know, look, we have a different take. We're in that delivery only model. So these are it's true infrastructure for making food behind the scenes for delivery. So you don't have these issues.

And so now it's like a huge amount of capex. My store's down for two to three months. And the economics start to not work. And by the way, I still have to have humans in that brick and mortar. And so, you know, look, we have a different take. We're in that delivery only model. So these are it's true infrastructure for making food behind the scenes for delivery. So you don't have these issues.

And of course, our setup, our infrastructure, these kitchens are designed for these kinds of machines to be in them and vice versa. We've designed the machine to be in them.

And of course, our setup, our infrastructure, these kitchens are designed for these kinds of machines to be in them and vice versa. We've designed the machine to be in them.

I just heard this voice from above. It was the czar of AI and crypto. I was like, wow, let's all sit back and listen.

I just heard this voice from above. It was the czar of AI and crypto. I was like, wow, let's all sit back and listen.

I'm doing really well. I got to say, just like at the Summit, Jason, it's an honor to be in the presence of... Such a prominent Uber investor.

I'm doing really well. I got to say, just like at the Summit, Jason, it's an honor to be in the presence of... Such a prominent Uber investor.

One of them in Boston, they turned like the second and third floor into studio apartments for artists.

So, you know, where there's a will, there's a way.

Sacks is busy.

sort of you know goes exponential and so the internet food court is sort of the vision for where this all goes another example of the bitter lesson the bitter yeah we're going to get to that i guess today in a very full docket before we get to that just a little bit of housekeeping here september 17th 9th in los angeles the all-in summit again all in.com slash yada yada yada

Couldn't make it this week.

In his place, another brilliant PayPal alumni and, dare I say, GOP supporter, Heath Raboy.

Lineup is stacked and we're going to start announcing the speakers.

People have been begging us to announce the speakers.

I don't know.

Hold a couple back.

But we got some really nice speakers lined up.

It is going to be extraordinary.

Well done.

Yeah, yeah.

Every year we have this little bit of panic like, you know, we're going to get great speakers.

And man, they started flowing in this week.

It's going to be extraordinary.

Almost as extraordinary as this delicious tequila behind my head here.

Get the tequila at tequila.online.com.

Deliveries begin late summer.

Oh, nice.

Yeah.

All right, listen, lots to discuss this week.

Obviously, AI is continuing to be the big story in our industry.

And for good reason, our bestie Elon released Grok 4 Wednesday night.

Two versions, base model and a heavy model, 30 bucks a month for the base, $300 a month.

for this heavy model which has a very unique feature you can have a multi-agent feature i got to see this actually when i visited xai a couple of weeks ago where multiple agents work on the same problems and they and they do that simultaneously obviously and then compare each other's work and it gives you kind of like a study group the best answer uh by consensus really interesting according to artificial analysis benchmarks you can pull that up nick rocks for a base model

How are you, sir?

has surpassed OpenAI's O3 Pro, Google Gemini's 2.5 Pro as the most intelligent model.

This includes like seven different industry standard evaluation tests.

Nice to see you.

You can look it up, but reasoning, math, coding, all that kind of stuff.

This is, you know, book smarts, not necessarily street smart.

So it doesn't mean that these things can reason.

And I'm assuming you're in gorgeous Florida or somewhere.

And obviously there was a little...

There was a little kerfluffle on X, formerly known as Twitter, where XAI got a little frisky and was saying all kinds of crazy stuff and needed to maybe be red teamed a little bit more decisively.

Many of you know Grok 4 was trained on Colossus.

That's that giant data center that Elon's been building.

And we showed the chart here at Chamath.

You sent us a link to the bitter lesson by Rich Sutton in the group chat.

That's the 2019 blog post.

We'll pull it up here for people to take a look at and we'll put it in the show notes.

Maybe just generally your reaction to both how quickly Elon has, and that chart showed it, how quickly Elon has caught up

Yeah.

And I don't think people expected him to take the lead, but here we are.

Oh.

Hometown.

Is it safe?

Is it okay?

Mom Dami chasing you down the street?

Did he seize your assets?

Yeah, you're going to probably want to sell that place if you got one there because Momdami is going to seize it and turn it into a drugstore for you.

Yes, it's going to be a Momdami drugstore.

Travis Kalanick is back with us.

Just explain this concept one more time with a better lesson.

Hand-coding heuristics into the computer and saying, hey, here are specific openings in chess.

Yeah.

Yeah, use chess, right?

Yeah.

So you're encoding specific examples of openings in their end games, etc.

How are you doing, bestie?

Versus just saying, play every possible game.

And here's every game we have.

Yeah, second appearance here on the Roundtable.

Yeah.

And third time on the show.

Of course, you spoke at the Summit.

You've been busy with Cloud Kitchens.

And for others, it's very hard in some circumstances where a car is driving down the road and it's learning in that process, which is why you need a safety driver.

Yeah, lots of exciting things going on.

And I think Elon made the right decision to put one in there.

Because we hit the end of human knowledge or just the collection of it is 99% done.

So Tony AI is, um, an autonomous company doing self-driving.

It's one of the few, uh, players that actually have cars on the road.

They're based in China.

Is your perception that the LLMs are actually starting to get to the reasoning level that they'll come up with a novel concept theory and have that breakthrough, or that we're kind of reading into it and it's just trying random stuff at the margins?

They've got a lot of operations in the, uh,

Or maybe it doesn't happen.

Middle East, they've got a deal with a delivery company called Uber, which you might be familiar with.

Keith, you're nodding your head here.

You wanted to say consciousness, but you stopped yourself.

Yeah, exactly.

Wow.

It's kind of mind-blowing.

It's really mind-blowing.

I don't know if you guys remember dark matter and the discovery of it and everything.

And as explained to me by Lisa Randall, the discovery was made not by knowing there was dark matter there and observing it, but observing there was something, gravitational forces around this other matter.

And then they said, well, wait, what's causing that?

And that's why they found dark matter.

So these ideas, the idea that an LLM could actually do that

come up with something so novel is it doesn't, it feels like we might be right there, right?

Like we're kind of on the cusp of it.

Meaning of the universe, yeah.

Yeah, and on a technical basis too, people forget how good Elon is at factories and physical real world things.

What he did standing up Colossus made like, Jensen Wan was like, how is this possible that you did this, right?

So pressing that, his ability to build factories, and he said many times like, the factory is the product of Tesla.

It's not the cars that come out of the factory or the batteries, it's the factory itself.

So if he can keep solving the energy problem with solar on one side and batteries and standing up, you know, Colossus 2, 3, 4, 5, he's going to have a massive advantage there on top of Travis, you know, the missionary...

Which, by the way, was what he backed before Sam Altman corrupted the original missionary basis of opening.

I made it closed AI and, you know, nothing derogatory towards him, but he did hoodwink and stab Elon in the back.

It's nothing personal.

I mean, he just screwed him over.

Would you say he bamboozled him?

Bamboozled him?

Screwed him?

hoodwinked him you know pick your term here but uh he did it he didn't dirty the original mission was to be like a missionary open source all this content that's the other piece i think is a wild card and then i'll measure sitting keith's position but open sourcing some of this could have profound ramifications i think open sourcing the self-driving data could have a really profound impact the

Elon wanted to do something really disruptive, like he open-sourced his patents for charging.

If he open-sourced the data set and self-driving, does anybody have the ability to produce robo-taxis at the scale he can do it?

I don't think so.

Well, yes, but could somebody produce 100 million robo-taxis from a factory with batteries in them?

Okay, that's a different question.

I don't know if you guys have seen this.

In related news, OpenAI and Perplexity are going after the browser.

Perplexity launched Comet for their $200 a month tier.

I actually downloaded it.

I'll show it to you in a second.

But this is a really interesting category.

It's something developers can do already, and they do it all the time.

But having your browser connected to agents

Let you do really interesting things.

I'll show you an example here that I just fired off while we're talking.

So I just asked it, hey, give me the best flights from United Airlines and business class from New York City, from San Francisco to New York City.

It does some searches.

But what you see here is it's popped up a browser window and it's actually doing that work.

And you can see the steps it's using.

And then I can actually open that browser window and watch it do that.

This is just a screenshot of it.

And it will open multiple of these.

So you could I was doing a search the other day saying like, hey, tell me all the autobiographies I haven't bought on Amazon, put them into my, you know, shopping cart and summarize each of them because I like biographies and like doing here.

And when it did this last time, it put my flight into

like, and I was logged in under my account, and it basically put it into my account in the checkout.

So again, this isn't like if you're a developer, you do this all day long.

But this really seems to be a new product category.

I'm curious if you guys have played with it yet.

And then what your thoughts are on having an agentic browser like this available to you to be doing these tasks

in real time, you can also connect obviously your Gmail, your calendar to it.

So I did a search, tell me every restaurant I've been to and then put it by city.

And then I was going to open my open table and then pull that data as well.

What's interesting about this

Keith, and I know you're a product guy and you've done a lot of product work.

I'm curious your thoughts on it.

You don't have to do this in the cloud.

You're authenticated already into a lot of your accounts, nor do you have to worry about being blocked by these services because it doesn't look like a scraper or a bot.

It's just your browser doing the work.

Your thoughts on this?

Have you played with it at all?

Travis, your thoughts on this category?

Anything come to mind for you in terms of feature sets that would be extraordinary here?

I know you like to think about products and the consumer experience.

Yeah.

The paradigm shift is so profound that the idea that you would visit a web page goes away and you're just in a chat dialogue.

So you're lying to them.

You're doing hospice care and you're telling them everything's going to be okay.

But the patient's not making out-of-line options on Robin Hood while he's like, yeah, yeah, tell me more.

Let's talk about that because the you and I are old enough to remember general magic.

This vision was out there a long time ago with personal digital assistance.

And you would just talk to an agent, it would go do this for you.

This feels like a step to that, where it does all the work for you presents you the final moment and says approve.

Almost like a concierge or a butler, yeah.

Who's the beautiful woman there?

And it already knows what to do.

Keith, in some ways, this is a step towards that ultimate vision.

So you'd think it's worth it to, you know, sort of perplexed to make this waypoint, perhaps, if you look at it as a waypoint between the ultimate vision, which is a command line, an earpiece.

How do you get distribution, Jason, for the 19th web browser in 2025?

Well, yeah, that is a challenge.

And I think most people are speculating Apple, which has a lot of users, might buy perplexity or do a deal with perplexity and give them that distribution because of the Justice Department case against Google.

So there's been a lot of speculation about that.

But Keith, what do you think?

The pick a vertical and own it strategy.

Well, I mean, Keith, the way you phrase it there almost makes it worth it for Apple to throw a Hail Mary, have a team with some taste, because that's how they tend to do things, is something that is elegant.

And why not just throw your search to it?

Throw $10 billion at a complexity team and see what happens.

Is that the woman who owns it or something?

Lafont was on right, like two episodes ago, he was like, I can't pull this up.

It's limited to six companies.

Dude, it's so what do people use Bloomberg for?

I got a new domain name, Travis.

Let this one just sink in here.

This is my way to weasel my way into the deal.

Begin.com.

Begin.com.

You own that, don't you?

I do.

I'm just a little... I snipe some good ones once in a while.

I got begin.com and I got annotated.com.

Those are my two little domains.

Oh, like the roadshow?

And then all of a sudden you got a Picasso?

Who's your daddy?

Hey, speaking of daddy, let's go on to our next story.

Come on.

is now the right time for a third party elon seems to think so last week he announced that x he would be creating a new political party i'll let you decide who daddy is in this one he said quote when it comes to bankrupting our country with waste and graft we live in a one-party system not a democracy he's not yet outlined a uh

Is that the queen?

A platform for the American Party.

We talked about it here last week.

I listed four core values, which seem to get a good reaction on X. Fiscal responsibility slash doge, sustainable energy and dominance in that.

Manufacturing in the US, which Elon has done single-handedly here.

Pro-natalism, which I think is a passion project for him.

And Shabbat, you punched it out with the fifth technological excellence.

According to Polymarket, 55% chance that Elon registers the American party by the end of the year.

And, you know, one thing I was trying to figure out is just how unpopular are these candidates and these political parties.

This is a very interesting chart that I think we can have a great conversation around.

It turns out we used to love our presidents.

If you look here from Kennedy at 83%, his highest approval rating, his lowest was 56%.

That was his lowest approval rating.

So he operated in a very high band.

Look at Bush, too, during after 9-11.

92% was his peak.

His lowest was 19, right?

Wartime president.

But then you get to Trump 1, Biden, and Trump 2, historically low high approval.

They're high watermark, 49 for Trump 1, 63 for Biden, 1 of 1, and then 47 for Trump 2.

and their lowest 29, 31, 40.

So maybe it is time for a third party candidate.

Let's discuss it, boys.

This is the worst formatted chart.

No, that's not.

This is a confusing chart, but the reason I'm putting it up is for debate.

So you should be saying thank you for creating great debate.

Why did you put it up?

Here's another one.

Gallup poll Americans desire for a viable third party 63% in 2023.

So it's bumping along in all time.

Okay.

Anyway, I'm going to stop there.

What's the gray?

I'm going to let you.

Okay, got it.

That was a different sense during that time period and how popular parties were.

Let's stop here.

This is a good place to stop.

No, no.

I think it's great to get the overview here first on All In.

Thank you for sharing it with us.

And everybody knows you have been doing a bowl builder.

Okay.

So the counter to that and what people believe he's going to try to do is win a couple of seats in the House, Travis, win maybe one or two Senate seats.

Lab 37, I think it's called.

If you were to do that, those things are pretty affordable to back a couple of million dollars for a House race, Senate, maybe 25 million.

If Elon puts, I don't know, 250 million to work every two years, which he

I mean, put 280 million to work on the last one, he could kind of create the Joe Manchin moment.

You can throw it up on the screen.

And he could build a caucus, a platform, Grover Norquist kind of pledge along these lines.

I'm not sure what the status of it is, and then I'll let you go, Chamath, with your follow-up question.

So what do you think of that?

If he's not going to create a viable third party presidential candidate, could he Travis, pick off a couple of Senate seats, pick up a couple of congressional seats?

Okay.

And I was right about everything.

I think there's a pretty interesting concept here of the bowl getting built and then put into a self-driving car.

I'm in love with this role for Elon more than picking a party because he's picking a very specific platform that I think resonates with folks, which is just balance the budget.

Don't put us in so much debt and let's have some sustainable energy, you know, job done.

Great job.

No, I think he believes we're overspending.

Now, I admit that there is- Why didn't that happen with the big beautiful bill?

We've never had so many people say they feel politically homeless as we did the last two cycles.

And that includes many people on this podcast, people in our friend circle.

And I think just the idea that Elon could create a platform that people could opt into and support, just the existence of that

would make the other two parties get their act together.

And I think that's what we need is a little bit of a stick there and a carrot.

Hey, if you don't control spending, there's this third option.

And if Travis and I are in it, and Keith, I know you'll never leave the Republican Party, but Chamath, you're probably set where you want to be right now.

But I can tell you, we go through our top 10, 20 list.

Out of those, 50% will join Elon's party day one.

JD Vance had this great book, capture people's imagination.

He's an incredible speaker.

He pisses off a third or two thirds of the country, depending on where you are in the country.

But you can't ignore him.

I think Elon can find 10 JD Vance type characters and back them fairly easily.

He is a magnet for talent.

People will line up.

I have been contacted by high profile people.

I was actually thinking of running.

Can you put me in touch with Elon?

Ideally, but they still have to communicate, right, Keith?

They have to be able to communicate on a podcast.

That's the new platform.

If they can't spend two hours, three hours chopping it up on a podcast like this or Joe Rogan, that's Kamala's... The reason she couldn't even contend was because she couldn't hang for two hours in an intellectual discussion.

If you can't hang, you're out in today's political arena.

Well, there it is, Elon.

Keith doesn't think you can win a Senate race, but he thinks you can win a couple of congressional ones.

Thanks for giving him the motivation, Keith.

I appreciate it.

That is the biggest mistake you've ever made.

He's not going to win two.

People in the Republican Party right now are going, oh, no, don't poke the tiger.

Elon, right?

Yeah.

Congratulations.

All right.

Listen, SCOTUS made a big decision here.

This is a really important decision.

They've sided with Trump for plans for federal workforce rifts, reductions in workforce, for those of you who don't know.

As you know, Elon, Trump, they wanted to downsize the 3 million people who are federal employees.

This is just federal employees we're talking about.

We're not talking about military and we're not talking about state and city.

That's tens of millions of additional people.

If you remember, Trump issued this executive order back in February.

We got an office implementing the president's Doge workforce optimization initiative.

And he asked all the federal agencies, hey, just prepare a RIF for their departments consistent with applicable laws, was part of this EO.

Okay.

In April, the American Federation of Government Employees, AFGE, sued the Trump administration saying the president must consult Congress on large-scale workforce changes.

This is a key debate because the Congress, as you know, has power of the purse.

They set up the money.

But the president and the executive branch, they have to execute on that.

And that's what the key is here.

So they accused Trump of violating the separation of powers under the Constitution Act.

AFGE has 820,000 members.

In May, a San Francisco-based federal judge sided with the unions, blocking the executive order.

The judge, who was appointed by Clinton, said any reduction in the federal workforce must be authorized by Congress.

This is a key issue.

And the White House submitted an emergency appeal, yada, yada, eight of nine Supreme Court justices sided with the White House in overturning this block.

And so the reasoning, it's very likely the White House will win the argument of the executive order.

They have the right to prepare a rift.

The question is, can they actually execute on that rift?

And who has that power, Chamath?

Does the power reside with the president to make large scale or, you know, rifts?

Or do they have to consult Congress first?

Your thoughts on this issue?

Here we go.

You could have passed the EO, which triggered the lawsuit.

If he wasn't firing people, yeah, they probably wouldn't have felt the need, to your point, Travis, to actually...

file this.

But Travis, if you are living in the age of AI efficiency right now, operations of companies is changing dramatically.

Can you imagine telling somebody you can be CEO, but you can't change personnel?

That's the job.

You get to be CEO, but you just can't change the players on the team.

You can buy the Knicks, but you can't change the coach.

You can grow players.

You just can't shrink it.

Right.

Do they still exist or are they all gone?

They're going quickly.

Yeah, it should be outcome-based.

Hey, here's the goal, here's the key objectives, right?

Yeah, it's super fascinating.

What a truly magnificent place.

Yeah.

Well, then you also have performance that comes in here.

What if you look at the Department of Education and say scores have gone down?

We've spent this money.

We're not getting the result.

Therefore, these people are incompetent.

Therefore, I'm firing them for cause and I'm going to hire new people.

How are you going to stop the executive from doing that?

I mean, that's the way to go is like, I mean, I hate to be cutthroat about it, but if the results aren't there, then you fire people.

But what about, Keith, if the whole department sucks?

Hey, you guys were responsible for early education.

You had to put together a plan.

The plan failed.

Everybody's fired.

We're starting over.

Like, you should be allowed to do that.

All right.

Listen, we're at an hour and a half, gentlemen.

Do you want to do the FICO story or should we just wrap, Jamal?

And we've got plenty of show here.

It's a great episode.

Anything else you want to hit?

I thought these other topics were really good, though.

We did great today.

This is a great panel.

I'm so excited you guys are here.

Let me just ask you guys, any off-duty stuff that you can share with us, with the audience, any recommendations, restaurants, hotels, trips?

Movies you watch, books you read.

Keith, I know that you are an active guy.

What's on your agenda this summer?

Anything interesting you can share with the audience that you're consuming, conspicuous or otherwise?

Can I get your nanny's email?

What was the big takeaway for you so far?

Okay.

Travis, anything you got on your plate there that you're enjoying the restaurant, a dish?

Above and beyond any expectation we had.

XG.

No, wait, yeah, okay.

All due respect, you're the founder of Uber, you're very high profile, you go to this back end.

Is this like held at the Motel 8 in like a conference room in the back?

It was amazing.

Next to the Dungeons and Dragons convention?

Ooh, the owner of XG.

Chamath, I feel like we've got a window here to do the all-in backgammon high-end tournament.

We got to lock this down now.

We got to lock down the all-in backgammon set.

Well, no, the all in XG, you know, because I love a great back end set.

If we could make like a $10,000 one, Chamath, we could kill turtles or white rhinos, all the animals that, you know, Freeburg's trying to protect.

We could murder them and then make.

Yes.

Like maybe the white could be, you know, rhinos and then you could take something else, elephant skin, something, you know, just really tragic and then eat the meat and make the backgammon set for you.

I love the vibes of sitting.

Travis and I sat.

I got some cigars out.

We pour a little of the all-in tequila, tequila.allin.com.

We get that going.

A couple of the all-in cigars, and then we have the all-in backgammon.

It's a wonderful hang.

yeah keith would you consider giving us some of your money playing back absolutely absolutely we gotta we gotta get some of that i'd be much more money on the table because you don't play poker with us i don't play poker but backgammon yeah that sounds great and i'll bring that i'll bring better tequila i have better tequila well like we're gonna upgrade we'll do a little taste off yeah so you've insulted now elon with the senate seats in fact with his uh my tequila is much better trust me who is left in the paypal mafia you'd like to insult before this episode

All right, listen, this has been another amazing episode of the number one podcast in the world, the all-in podcast for your sultan of science who couldn't make it today.

He's at the conference that we don't mention.

And David Sachs, who is out making America safe in AI and crypto.

Shemoth Palihapitiya, world's greatest power raider.

Travis.

Keith, thank you for coming.

Thanks for pinch hitting.

You guys were great today.

What a panel.

See you all next time.

Go below that stop for me.

Thank you.

We took everything for free.

All right.

Keith, what are your thoughts?

Any questions?

Yeah.

Eats up.

Eats up.

The problem was, I told Freeberg, people don't want to eat quinoa.

You got to put a little steak in there, maybe a piece of salmon.

But he was kind of, I think eventually he relented and let people have a little bit of protein.

The bags.

But yeah, so it's such a great vision.

Wait, he died as a vegan martyr?

The laundry bags.

The toothpaste, the robes, the slippers.

All right, listen, we've got a great panel this week.

This would be good for Keith because he measures stuff down to like five calories based on his Instagram.

It's the summer.

Things are slow.

Or space and infrastructure.

Some people are busy.