Thai-An Truong
Appearances
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Yeah, I think that's a good example of just sexual conditioning and arousal. And so what they're seeing is even if they paired porn with a non-sexy object, like porn and a black boot, porn and a jar of pennies, Ultimately, they then just see the black boot and then they get aroused or get an erection. And so we're just talking about sexual conditioning.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
This is what they've been exposed to, how exciting it is for the first time when they're viewing porn. And then the conditioning is to the screen. The conditioning is to this act of masturbation instead of engaging with a real life person. And any conditioning can then actually be unconditioned.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
For some people. For some people. So that's for people with, oh, now my relationship satisfaction and sexual satisfaction can increase and improve again. So this is different from a fetish. So when they talk about porn-induced sexual conditioning... we can see, is it an actual part of your sexual identity? Or is it porn-induced after abstinence?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Because if it's porn-induced after abstinence, they see that their sexual taste then goes back to a certain level that's different. If it's an actual fetish that's part of their sexual identity, then it'll continue.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
But if it's porn-induced after abstinence, they actually heal a lot of that sexual conditioning.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And for young men who've never had a relationship and their arousal has been then sexually conditioned to the screen and to porn, it's actually then really important to do some exposure with not even going straight to trying to have sex with a woman, but actual just intimacy, connection with a human body, right?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Say that again, Dr. Bryce?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Yeah, absolutely. So they can have intercourse if they choose to go towards that. But what we see is essential for recovery, especially for young men who've never had a relationship. It's just conditioning towards a real human.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Yeah, that's such a good question. I think what we see in terms of sexual function is just because The parts are different. And so for the male having erectile dysfunction, they're just more greatly impacted by the porn use because of that. But definitely see sex addiction in women. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
it really impacting them all of those aspects that we're talking about right like loss of control living a life that doesn't align with their values there's a craving or a seeking for this thing that feels like a need for them um and then there's negative consequences dr patrick karnes actually shares a lot of cases around women he worked with a musician who was a woman um
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And also there nightly after her performances, she would seek out someone in the audience and take them home to engage in intercourse and then just send them on their way. And despite it feeling very disturbing to her the next day, it just feels like that became a nightly routine where There's the craving or the need for it. The consequences of it was dangerous sometimes.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
She didn't even know the person stole her wallet. You know, a person that she took home stole her wallet, but continued. So definitely a lot of documentation in that for women as well. They even see possibly prostitution could be an aspect of sex addiction, but also a survival aspect. And then it's really complicated with sexual abuse as well, having been objectified.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
It's very normal for victims of sexual abuse to feel arousal. And pleasure because you're just dealing with sex. That's just how your body responds. And from that, a lot of times they internalize blame or they internalize that, oh, I wanted it or that was, you know, my fault that my body responded in this way. But that's just a natural human response.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
No, no, you're good. Yeah. Yeah. What were you saying, Rhonda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Yeah. And they were absolutely still a victim of sexual abuse. And a lot of times we see also healing a lot of that trauma. Yeah. can then impact just a healthier response to how they treat their body, how they engage with another person, how they engage in intimacy again for the first time. So, yeah, sounds like that was the case that you had worked with as well, Dr. Burns.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Sounds like through the healing work, then she was able to re-engage with her partner or just not seek out kind of these more sleazy guys, right? Because you said there is a lot of healing through that. And I see that too in just working with trauma. There's just so much violation and pain and how you
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
associate with your body violation of trust objectifying your own body becomes the norm and so healing from the trauma we see healing and all of that i can trust again i can feel safe in my body again i can get more mindful in my body and connecting sexually instead of dissociating which often happens a lot for trauma victims and so yeah it's very powerful and healing from trauma you heal
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
your sense of safety within your own body too.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Yeah. First, I want to share with them a lot of psychoeducation. I think that piece is really important just so they have awareness. Because even now, I think there's a lot of minimizing of the issue. There's even still some controversy of can porn be an addiction. And so just giving them education, for some it's not, and for others it absolutely is and greatly impacted their lives.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And so the first piece I want to share with them is just awareness of psychoeducation. porn's impact on the brain um and if it feels okay with you all maybe i could review that and then i'll go through some of the tools absolutely love that so we see just these main uh four ways that the brain is impacted so first is that census census sensitize sent to Sensitization.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Sorry, I couldn't say that word. Where it just gets more sensitive, there's more of a craving. So the brain kicks into wanting more, chasing more. needing to go towards it again and again. So getting sensitized.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
First, sensitization. Sensitization is just more cravings. I feel like I want more of it. I have to have more of it. It feels like a life or death thing. I have to have it. And then there is a desensitization. Where the reward system can just get worn out. And so we see tolerance, right? I need more of it in order to get the same effect.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And this is where we start to see for them, they may start to get bored with certain porn. And then they have to get to more extreme porn in order to get the same effect. So it's not even just more time with porn anymore. It gets more extreme. Their sexual taste starts to morph. And so some of the guys that I've worked with feel a lot of shame about this.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And they didn't even realize that was not a part of them or who they are. Some of them actually start to get really disturbed as to how their porn taste starts to morph. Where it gets more extreme. They then may need more violence in the porn. And what we see is like when they start younger, the younger that they start, I have one that even started at 10 years old.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
The younger that they start, the more extreme by the time they get help that their porn is. So they may get into more of a bestiality thing. So sex with animals or just disturbing content. And that's because of desensitization. I'm still needing to chase that high. And in the addictions world, they see sensitization and desensitization as I need more. So more want, less like. More want.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
I want more. I have to have more. But I actually like it less. Um, and then I need more extreme, uh, content in order to get the same effect. So I just want them to be aware of that and to really normalize that because there's a lot of shame and there's even confusion for people because they're needing more extreme content.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
They may go into more like same sex porn and then they wonder, oh my gosh, am I gay? Am I not? And through abstinence, they then can actually explore, oh, was this due to desensitization where my sexual taste has just morphed? And after abstinence, it does actually go back to baseline. I don't need that extreme content anymore for arousal.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And then I can actually know, am I struggling with sexuality and exploring that? Or was it just the morphing of the porn taste, right? So letting them know those two elements. And then just the other two ways that addiction affects our brain is it affects your frontal lobe. So it becomes harder to quit, feels harder to control. I become hyper reactive to addiction cues.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
So I may even just see something on social media and then it pulls me back in because it then starts to affect your frontal lobe and your ability to have control over it. And then the fourth way that addiction impacts our brain is it starts to impact our stress system and it feels like it starts to malfunction. A minor stress can create a severe craving.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
So they may have had like a poor grade in a class and it can trigger a severe craving to go towards that content. And then what's really important in this malfunctioning stress system is not only does a little bit of stress trigger really severe cravings for them. But we'll see severe withdrawal symptoms, which people didn't realize for a long time could impact porn use.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
So when they try to stop, they need to know that these symptoms can come up just so they could be aware. Because these are the symptoms that can drive them right back to porn use because it feels like, oh, that's the only thing that can help me feel normal again. So the withdrawal symptoms that are really common are
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
That you've actually already touched on some, Rhonda, is they talk about having like a social paralysis. I'm just feeling kind of stunted in my social connection. But just a decrease in mood, a decrease in pleasure. And so we're not just seeing a decrease in pleasure, less liking of the porn content. There's a decrease in pleasure in just life in general.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
It's almost like that reward system has been exhausted. And so even everyday things that they used to enjoy, like socialization, watching a movie, having a conversation with a loved one, there's just a decreased pleasure in that. It just feels blah for them.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Yeah, mainly through the research I see dopamine and with dopamine producing nerve cells really shrinking from the use of meth, cocaine, and also porn. Porn and sex addiction seems to impact that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Dopamine producing nerve cells seems to shrink with meth, cocaine, and then sex addiction seems to create that same impact. And so the protein that's tied to dopamine that they call Delta Fosby, these are like, so the dopamine motivates you to go towards pleasure.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And Delta Fosby are like the workers that work really hard to make sure you remember the pleasure and it tells you to do it again and it drives the urges. And so after abstinence, And we see like the number, the protein of that Delta FosB really drop because then you no longer have that protein that tells you to do it again, do it again, and really drive the urge in that process.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
So it's really fascinating to see that. And one withdrawal symptom that is unique that you don't see in meth and drug use and cocaine use is what they call flatlining withdrawal. Where they call that even like lifeless genitals. And that's really terrifying for a lot of them who stop because it's like, oh my gosh, am I just going to have like zero sex drive?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And I'm going to flatline and they call it just lifeless genitals because it feels like I have no attraction whatsoever.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
I have no arousal and it just feels like this deadening effect and that is one that is really important to let them know about because if they feel like oh this will never heal and it always does they see for some it can be as short as three weeks for some they need about four months so depending on severity of use how early they started
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
They just need to be aware of flatlining because that will drive them back to seeking porn just so they can have some sense of life in their system again.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
I see that to be really unique to porn use.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Yeah. Don't really see it in withdrawal symptoms of drugs. Don't really see it in withdrawal symptoms of alcohol. But withdrawing from porn use initially seems to flatline them. And recovery is typically around seven weeks of complete abstinence.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
But for some, it can take up to four months and they just really need to be aware of that because you can imagine how scary that is for someone who feels like, oh, am I just going to have no arousal or response and just have this deadening kind of effect? Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Yeah, exactly. I feel like that's so important for awareness when you talk about hopelessness, preparing them for that. Because many just this isn't common knowledge. Yeah. Or use is so common that it feels like it's just a thing that people do. But when it becomes a problem, it can become really serious. And for them to know that, hey, this can come up when you're trying to stop. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
You wanted to engage in it for pleasure, for enjoyment, and then ultimately it seems to deplete that, right? It's really sad when you get into a space of loss of pleasure and hedonia is just a loss of sense of pleasure in life, not just with the porn, but things you've loved, like connection and movies and... Just living. But for them to know that that all gets better as well.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Yeah, I think this is a great transition into looking at the tools and how Team CBT just really has powerful ways of addressing motivation. Because we know in the addiction world, they talk about motivational interviewing, which is great, looking at the pros and cons of change. But I feel like the paradox that you've created, Dr. Burns, where we're not even talking about the cons of
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
We're not talking about the cost of the habit. They're already really aware of that, right? So when we use team, of course, we first empathize and connect and create a safe place with them. Dr. Burns also has an urges and craving skill that's mainly for drugs and alcohol. But we could just even really replace that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And just measuring, right? How strong are the cravings this week? Zero to a hundred. How strong are your urges to follow through? I love what you've outlined when we're doing measurement as well, Dr. Burnson. if we just normalize cravings first, they're much more likely to be more forthcoming about actual relapse and urges and engaging.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
So if we normalize cravings and address first, how strong have your cravings been zero to a hundred in the past week to use? Then they're much more likely to say, okay, the cravings were strong. And then we rate how strong were your urges Were there relapses? Did you actually act and engage in drugs? Then they're more likely to be forthcoming about the actual relapse too.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And then addressing motivation. I mean, the triple paradox, I feel like is the most powerful motivational tool because it's completely paradoxical. First honoring what is the benefit of continuing to engage in porn use because when they come in, there's lots of shame.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Just from the couples, I don't have extensive experience, but from the few couples that I've worked with, it's often more of the problem for the spouse. where she's complaining, feeling betrayed, feeling hurt. And so I feel like it really decreases shame when we use the triple paradox where we're just aligning with right now, what does it actually do for you?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And I actually like to do this with the partner there just so she can really be aware of What function is this porn use serving for them? So they'll learn more layers of like, it actually helps me to decrease stress. Moments when I'm lonely, I feel a sense of connection.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Moments when you're upset with me and we're disconnecting, I feel like this is a reliable friend who won't get mad at me, who won't reject me. And there's actually a lot of depth to the function of it when we look at the triple paradox and the benefits of the porn use. A sense of connection, a sense of companionship. This is actually what they're looking for. It's not just a pleasure thing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
for masturbation, right? Because initially it feels like, oh, it's just this shallow thing. But yeah, the triple paradox of just honoring the benefits, connecting with the values where they're kind of in shock. Oh, there's values behind this.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
The values is actually finding some relief, finding some connection, having a sense of self-care in a moment when I'm really stressed out and overwhelmed with life. This is a moment of just getting some sense of love.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
In terms of motivation to change, do you want to stop or not? I don't use as much of the decision-making tool because I find like the triple paradox and then when you do voicing the resistance, I just rate their motivation for change. And so initially they may say motivation for change is 90. My wife is about to leave me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And then we go through the benefits and the values and then the cost of change, not the cost of the porn youth, which is typical motivational interviewing. But the cost of change is then they know, oh, flatlining. It's challenging. I'll have to make changes in my environment. I have to grieve. I have to let go of this friend that's been reliable for me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Then I re-rate motivation for change, and then they could probably connect with my motivations now like 50%, maybe even 40%, right? And then once we voice the resistance, or I think you call it also externalization of resistance.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Once we do that, they start to take on a voice of change if...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
that motivation is there like why change considering this has been your reliable friend why change when it brings pleasure easily and quickly you won't get rejected like your wife won't tell you i mean your wife will tell you no but porn won't tell you no right and then they could take on the voice of change of like well yeah it is an easy source of pleasure and it does help with loneliness but you know what i'm super lonely right now because i'm disconnected from my wife
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
I don't even enjoy movies and things I used to enjoy because this has been consuming. And once they start to take on that voice of change and I also connect with their values of change, why is it important to you to then actually connect with your wife? Why is it important to you to actually connect with conversations and movies versus porn?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Then I re-rate the motivation to change after we do voicing the resistance or externalization of resistance. And to me, that's the decision-making form because once they can take on that voice of change, for some of them, they may not want to change. I haven't encountered that yet. I have with other addictions like shopping and other things. For some, they're like, oh, I'm at 20%.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
I actually don't want to change. This serves me. But with the porn and the few couples that I've worked with, their motivation to change like goes to way past that 40 or 50, 90, 100. I've had one that said 150. I want a real connection versus a synthetic connection with this thing. Why do they want that? Huh?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Why do they want a real connection?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Yeah. Because they'll connect with things like, my wife really matters to me. I want a partnership where we're actually talking about our problems instead of me escaping into reality. using porn when I'm lonely or disconnected from her. And so they'll connect with their values. And the wise is my partner's really important to me. I want a stronger marriage.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
I want to build a foundation, an example for our children of how we talk through hardships versus running away from it. So that, that externalization of resistance becomes really powerful and Just connecting with their values and their motivation for change. And I turn that into a script. It becomes a motivation script for them to look at when they're struggling.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Because if it can boost their motivation during our session, when they're triggered, it can boost their motivation again. And some read that religiously.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And two, I don't like quality of life. Because when it gets into the space of compulsivity and addiction, they've lost engagement with life. like joy in conversations, joy in the little things.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And they talk about after abstinence and recovery, even like how just going for a walk, once they get that sense of pleasure back and the healing, it's like, oh my gosh, going for a walk, I'm feeling actually such connection with life. Or the first time I'm actually having a sexual connection with my wife without porn.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
It feels like the connection and just the sensations felt so much more powerful for them.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Yeah, I think social... Social support is a really important piece of recovery. For a lot of porn use and addiction, there's forums. So one of the websites, one of the just a really great book that pulls it all together is Your Brain on Porn. And the website is that same title, yourbrainonporn.com has forums where they can actually connect people.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And just getting on that, like I saw someone post like, okay, I'm getting started on my journey. And then all of these people came and said, dude, you can do this. It's worth it. It's really hard at first and we're here for you. I just thought that was so awesome to just have this really supportive environment that's supporting change for them.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And so any kind of social support, I think it's wonderful. It's not for everyone. So like a 12-step group may be wonderful for one person, but not others. And so I think it's all part of that problem solution, which is another tool that Dr. Burns has put together. This is a problem that I can encounter. I can be aware of my triggers.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
For example, as people are tracking their triggers, they're not aware. Like one guy I worked with is when my wife leaves and I hear that door slam, that was like an automatic trigger. of wanting to go straight to porn. And then what would be the solution that then we can come up with connecting with a support group, doing something else. I also leave the house.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And then with problem solution, I also want them, I've added the element of rate. How effective is this solution for that problem? Zero to a hundred. Cause it sounded like a good solution, but they rate it at like 50. Then they need additional solutions that could be more powerful.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
I have not used as much of the habits and addiction log in just, once we've gone through the motivation, once we look at triggers, it seems like The motivational work has really helped with just a lot of that awareness. And so what I've really liked is looking more of like those behavioral interventions that Dr. Burns has had.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
So like stimulus control, we're seeing like moving the furniture around, just changing the room, changing the environment, changing the chair that they're familiar with has been really helpful. So stimulus control, porn and ad blockers. Eliminating any artificial sexual stimulation.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And so if they're surfing pictures still, they're reading erotic literature, they're looking at underwear ads, all of that can still be quite stimulating and draw them back into the habit. And so stimulus control, those behavioral interventions seems to be quite important here. in the recovery aspect.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And then with stimulus control, I also like to add not just stopping because stimulus control can feel very depriving for them, which is one of the costs of change. I'm going to feel deprived. I'm going to miss this thing that's been there for me. It's also then really important to look at once you remove that thing that's been there for you and served this function of a pleasure or
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
connection, escapism, what will you replace it with? What will you do instead? And it's really important to steer their brain towards activities that produce lasting, sustainable satisfaction, even if it's not quite immediately rewarding. So with stimulus control, we need to ask the question, and what will you do instead?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Because just letting go or stopping, it then just feels like I'm in the space of loss. But then what can you add to your life that you could be really proud of that could drive longer term satisfaction, longer term, just really sense of pride in yourself. So some of the guys come up with, I could actually go out and garden, build something from scratch.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
actually have a good conversation, call up a friend that I haven't, go visit my mom who I haven't in a while. And so just these things that just produce longer lasting effects that just really helps them to feel proud of themselves and aligns with their values seems really important.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Yeah, I'm just really excited to be here to share about porn addiction because As I shared with Rhonda, I've been a licensed alcohol and drug counselor since 2010. And to keep up our license, we need to get continuing education in addictions. And so I just started getting exposure through sex addiction, attending a training from Dr. Patrick Carnes.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
To heal from these impacts of the porn addiction, they're finding that abstinence is really important. Now, what you're talking about with if they and their partner just have a certain sexual identity or practice and it's not a problem, I just check with the person and the couple. Is it a problem for you? If it's not a problem, go for it, right?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Engage in whatever parties that's part of your own sexual... identity that works for you. If it's not a problem for you, go for it. If there's consensual partners and whatever else, I'm all in support of whatever works for people can be a part of their own healthy sex life.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And then you can see then they're connecting with real life people. I could imagine that could be actually really helpful. And for me, it's just whatever works for them and works for the couple. Like there's no one right way to have a sexual identity. I worked with a man who was dissatisfied in his relationship as a traditional couple.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And they decided to become a throuple where they pulled in another partner into the mix. And it was all consensual. It worked great for them. And there was just improved satisfaction for both. And so it's a part of their own relationship. healthy sexual identity among consensual partners, I think that's great. Like, go for it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
When it's a problem, that's when we can give them tools to address this.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
So he has the certification program for certified sex addiction therapists. But I wasn't as interested in it as I was just really drawn to team and I loved all of our tools and the empathy that it provides. And as I was learning team and then I'm working with couples, even in the past year, I've seen more just porn addiction come up among the couples that I'm working with.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Yeah, truly no shaming of their own sexual identity and even no shaming when the porn has become a problem, right? Because we, through the triple paradox, we could see when it wasn't a problem and it served a really important function and was even helpful for them.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
But now that it's become a problem and they're expressing they want the change, then we have the tools to really walk alongside them to create the life that they really do want.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
I do specialize in working with couples. It has shown up more frequently for me in the past year, which is interesting. And that was why I started to really dive into learning more and understanding more specifically about porn addiction and its impacts. So yeah, I do specialize in working with couples. I don't specialize in...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
working with couples with sex addiction or porn addiction, it just happened. Like it came up. Yeah. And then my interest is always about like, let me learn more just so I can be the most effective in helping them.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Yeah. You know, because I just love the team habits and addiction model, I don't see anything that's as effective, just like addressing motivation alone.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And just the way that...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Yeah, that's so kind. Thank you for bringing that up, Dr. Burns. I do really enjoy one-on-one training for sure. So I do team CBT consultations. And I reserve all of Thursdays for one-on-one team CBT consultations.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And then I'm wanting to start a practice group on Thursday mornings as well of just implementing the team structure and processes and some other tools that I've learned to treat just a variety of struggles as well. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And so that was when I started to just read a lot more and So I've had some training, attending Patrick Carnes' training, but just reading through it and actually applying team and our habits and addictions tools I found to be just really effective. More often than not, I'm working with a couple and the wife is complaining, feeling betrayed, feeling hurt by their partner.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
An hour and a half was what was voted for. So I'm going to try to keep it to that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking for now. It will continue to evolve. But I'm thinking possibly like there would be a tool that new team therapists can practice, like the double standard. But therapists who are familiar with that can have another option. So there may be like two practice sheets available. One for someone newer to it and one for someone who just wants to try a different tool.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Yeah, my training website is teamcbttraining.com.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Yep, exactly.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Thank you so much to both of you and for letting me be here to share some of my passions.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Thank you both.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
The partner says they'll stop and then they'll continue use of porn. And so as I'm working with a couple and I'm aware of this, it's a topic that's quite taboo. The guys usually feel a lot of shame around it. And as I'm reading and researching, I'm just learning a lot more about porn and its effects.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And I just want to first start with a disclaimer that there's no moral judgment here in terms of porn use and sex. It can be a healthy and fun part for some people's sex lives. I just want to share a lot of the information that I'm learning and what I'm applying in case it has become a real serious problem for people.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
So just wanting to share the symptoms, what are the signs of when it's become an addiction and how it can really impact a relationship. And then ultimately share how I've applied a lot of Dr. Burns's habits and addictions tools to really help just these people who are suffering and feeling like they can't stop even though they really wanted to.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Yeah, so if I'm working with a couple and I realize this is a huge problem in the relationship, I'll actually do individual therapy to just work with the person with the porn addiction. And I wonder if it's helpful for us to start with some stats, just from some of my trainings and what I've learned. So what we're seeing is...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
There's just a great rise in porn use since 2006 when high-speed internet became available. So through studies and polls, this one was from Australia, but they believe it's very similar in the U.S. In a 2017 poll in Australia of youths age 15 to 29, 100% of young men have used porn. And 82% of women. And so it's not just now like a male-dominated issue. 82% of young women have also viewed porn.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
You say 80% of young women also? Yeah. 82%, yeah. And the age of viewing continues to drop. So they're getting younger and younger as they're doing these polls. And by this 2017 poll, 69% of the males and 23% of the females viewed porn at 13 or younger. And so before they've even been exposed to a real-life partner or even started dating, they were exposed to sex in this way through porn.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And we're seeing it's really creating an impact now.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Yeah, the age of viewing when they started to view porn continues to drop. And so in this specific poll, 69% of the males said they started to engage with porn at age 13 or younger. Yeah, okay, wow. And so we're seeing the younger that it starts, the more it just really impacts the developing brain and also sexual conditioning.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Yeah. And so what we're seeing is addiction across the board usually has just three similar aspects. And in addictions training, we talk about the three C's. And so you may notice just a craving process. I feel like I need that. I have an urge to go towards it. So that's one of the C's is a craving process. The second C is control.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
There's a sense of a loss of control because it starts to impact the frontal lobe, their sense of willpower, their impulse control starts to be impacted by it. So it may feel like I'm spending a lot more time with this than I actually want to. It's impacting how I actually want to live my life. So loss of control around that. And then the third C is it starts to have consequences, but I continue.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
So the consequences for the couples that I'm working with is my spouse is feeling hurt. There's actually less time for connection because I'm engaging with the screen or I'm engaging with these objects. figures in the porn instead of connecting with my wife. And by the time they've come to me for couples therapy, there's been a great disconnect.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And they get to a space where there may be spaces of minimizing, but more often than not, it's I can't stop. Even though I really want to, even though there's been attempts.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Yeah, so we actually see porn use when it becomes addictive and problematic. It actually impacts their relationship satisfaction and sexual satisfaction. And so in a lot of studies, they're seeing... People who then compulsively engage with porn find their partners less attractive, because there may be a comparison with the porn figures versus their partner.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
There's just a decrease in satisfaction in connection as well, because what we see is through sexual conditioning... they may get more arousal through a screen and novelty and variety from porn versus just connection with their partner.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And so there's a decrease in closeness and connection in the relationship and a decrease in just satisfaction in sex with the partner as well when porn use becomes problematic for the couple.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And what's fascinating too is once we see abstinence from porn use, even just within just three weeks, relationship satisfaction starts to improve again, as well as sexual satisfaction within the relationship too. So that can be pretty powerful for them to know and to be aware of that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Yeah, just within three weeks for many of them of abstinence. And then they're doing the research on where is your relationship satisfaction now? Where's your sexual satisfaction now? It starts to improve within just three weeks of abstinence from porn use.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Oh, yes, absolutely. It just changes things. They call it sexual conditioning because it's just a different way that the brain starts to get aroused. And imagine like a person who's never had a sexual relationship. And so like a teen that's engaging with sex for the first time through porn and masturbation, what conditions them for arousal is actually a screen, right?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
It's actually just the act of masturbation. And they don't then have attraction to real-life partners. There's been some stories in the trainings where a person's first exposure to sex is through porn, and then they may have met somebody And there's less attraction to that partner.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
Hi, Rhonda. Hi, Dr. Burns. I'm so grateful to be here.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
And then we may even see porn-induced ED or erectile dysfunction, where it could be a whole year with their new partner where they actually can't engage in sex anymore. even if they wanted to because of this porn-induced erectile dysfunction. Their brain has been socialized and sexually conditioned to be aroused by the screen, to be aroused by porn, and less so by a real-life partner.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
437: Overcoming Your Porn Addiction
They don't even know how to engage, even if they wanted to. Is that related to...