Pia Sinha
Appearances
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
Yeah, and he's right. If you got sentenced to under four years, you were released at your 50% mark anyway. So halfway point. So you're getting 10% earlier. There's not actually a lot in the scheme of things.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
And they do.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
And the probation crisis now, because you're moving the prison crisis into probation crisis. You've now suddenly got huge numbers of early released prisoners that are going to be on the caseloads of probation who are completely stretched as well.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
It's partly that and it's a big part. And I think, so we visited Holland a few months ago, a group of us, and we were looking at what they had done. They have successfully managed to reduce their prison population to such a point that they're having to, they've got empty prisons.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
And one of the things that they said is that, and they've got a right-wing government recently appointed, so they were concerned about what the implications of that would be. They said, but the way that the relationship between the politicians and the civil servants work is that the politicians don't interfere with civil service duties. They respect their neutrality and their independence. Right.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
and they don't tell them what they need to do. Whereas here, you've got a lot of political interference. And that then starts, you know, the tail wags the dog. And then when you play into it, the populism factor or the Daily Mail test, The driving force for why politicians might interfere in civil service business is because of how it might appear to voters.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
Yes, and the impact that will have on their future careers. So it's using the wrong optics, but that certainly seems to play a part.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
It does. And it's hugely expensive to build more prisons. I think at the rate of the prison population, the way it's going, I think that some clever statistician has worked out, you've got to build a new prison every two and a half years, which you can't do, which is crazy. And I think that at the moment, the position that they found themselves in, you know, you've You've got experience.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
I have experience of being in Victorian prisons. I mean, they're awful. They're crumbling and they are disgusting. And the squalor that Charlie Taylor talks about is true. So you do need to build new prisons, but it needs to be new prisons to close the old ones. And that makes sense. Or re-roll some of the prisons.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
You know, the women population, you know, reducing the women's population significantly. 60% of women are in there for non-violent offences. Decriminalise some of that. Give them the early intervention that they need to address those issues and re-roll some of the women's prisons. So they are much more creative ways of... getting you the capacity that you need without the expense.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
And I think that the taxpayers need to kind of start asking those searching questions. How much is this costing them for something that's not effective?
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
Correct.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
Do you know what it stands for, IPP? Imprisonment for Public Protection.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
So sentence inflation, some of it is because of perception of showing overtly that you're tough on crime. So when I started in the prison service 25 years ago, an average life sentence tariff would be something like 12 years. So even if you got a life sentence, it'd be 12 years tariff and then you'd be eligible for parole. It's now... pushing 20 years.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
And in that 20 years, as you say, David, is that unless you're doing something meaningful, purposeful, that's helping you feel hope and working towards all of those issues that might've got you into prison in the first place, the prison sentence itself becomes a source of deteriorating your wellbeing and your mental health.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
So with the IPP sentence, it's described as one of the biggest stains on the justice system. And people who are part of there have developed really poor mental health as a result of that. It's tantamount to torture.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
it's good to look at what were the factors that led up to you going to prison if you can change that then you probably won't be going to prison anymore you know yeah 100% and so the presumption against short sentences is a is a really effective way of of reshaping the criminal justice system because also if you pair that up if you say well we won't send you to prison and
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
But we'll give you a non-custodial sentence. We'll make it a suspended sentence. So there is a bit of deterrence there. We'll put in a treatment order. So if it's about drugs, we'll get you some drug intervention, treatment, et cetera, et cetera. Evidence shows that they're much more effective in reducing reoffending.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
slip up again and go away you know i feel like there should be more a lot more intervention yeah 100 but also there needs to be a bit more tolerance as well these some some individuals it takes more than one go for it to be successful so you know you you might get all of those things and you mess up but you know that happens in life you know you don't just kind of go that's it that's it you only get one chance at it so there has to be some tolerance of of risk as well
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
And well, one of the biggest things that reduces a factor in desistance is just simply maturity. So as you get older, you do that a lot more. You think about consequences a lot more.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
All men. Not just people going to bed. Yeah. I mean, I think that there's, you know, when I've worked in prisons that have younger people in there, I think that they're much more excited by interesting education schemes, interesting training schemes that, you know, that stimulate them rather than necessarily a job that, you know, they might not be ready for.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
And I think Timson's got a, I mean, he's a savvy businessman amongst other things, and he wants a model that will succeed. And you used to work with James Simpson, didn't you? Yes, he was the chair of the Prison Reform Trust just before he became minister. So putting the age limit there is probably quite sensible.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
He wants people to come in when they're ready and they're able to do the job well so that they succeed at it rather than fail at it.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
Well, I mean, I think that we know we need to change the narrative on the Daily Mail test. You know, why aren't people saying, does this pass the Guardian test? You know, why don't we want to live in a world that does that?
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
I think it's the best time. You've got new Labour government in, they've got a massive majority. Keir has said, you know, he's willing to go there with those unpopular decisions. And I want to know who he'd be unpopular towards. Is he kind of pandering to the right or the left? But... Do it. You know, this is the time to have courage. And it is. We were talking about it last time we were here.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
It's the worst kept secret that these are the things that that, you know, make rehabilitation better and stop kind of make safer communities. And if people are not swayed by the conditions in prisons argument, I think the bigger, more compelling argument is the economic argument. It costs so much to put someone in prison for something to not work.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
So if you look at the concept of justice reinvestment, you know, you're spending billions in the criminal justice industry. Take a portion of that and invest it in early intervention, the kinds of things that David was talking about. And you'll see that not only do you have safer communities, you have smaller sized prisons.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
And then when you have smaller sized prisons with people who genuinely do need to be there, you can resource them to have the interventions they need. So that people, when they come out at the other end, you can have people who are better citizens and will create fewer victims. And I know that some of this sounds very sort of naive, but you have to start somewhere. And I think you're right.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
I think it's the absolute perfect timing. And you've got Timpson as a prison minister. It signals something, doesn't it? It's signaling something that we're wanting to make bold decisions. So let's bring it on.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
Look forward to it. Absolutely.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
Thank you very much.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
No, I think it's the short answer.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
Shall I expand? Please do. But you've seen a year later, we're back to that same point. So it's a very, very temporary measure. It buys you a bit of breathing space. But ultimately, as a long term fix, you have to look at how you curb the demand coming into prison.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
And that is the only way that you can make this problem go away for longer than six months or a year, because we'll be here again next year if we only do this.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
I think potentially, yeah, I think you were talking about reintegration and planning for release. One of the key functions of prisons is that as you're technically or in theory, as you're coming towards the end of your release date, you should have people who work in the prisons and outside the prison helping you with your employment needs, your housing needs, your treatment needs, etc.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
informing victims, you know, all of that planning needs to take place. If you move that forward, then that planning time gets squashed. So the efficiency of all of that drops. And one of the things that came out in the reports is that victims are not being informed of the fact that their perpetrators are getting released early. And that can feel very traumatic for them.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
I think that people know that eventually people need to get out. But when you know that's happening and you've had time to prepare for it, you're mentally more equipped for it. And that's the bit that's not happening. So that's one problem in terms of how it impacts victims. But the other is that... Probation, generally, when you come out, you come out on license conditions.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
And one of the things that recalls you back to prisons is not necessarily that you've committed another offense, but that you've breached your license conditions. And those could be something as straightforward as you've not maintained your tenancy or you've made yourself homeless. because you've got kicked out of your flat or you're not living in suitable accommodation.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
You're punished for that. Yeah. And especially when there's no accommodation that's suitable anyway, you know, you might be sofa surfing. And for some people, that's the only option that they might have. And so you so the kind of fallacy in all of this is, is that your recall rate then increases.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
So if you're sending people out early, but then they're coming back in before their original release date anyway, you're just making it a kind of a really unworkable strategy to release pressure in prisons. And we had a number of prisoners getting interviewed yesterday as they were coming out of prisons.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
And so many of them were just resigned to the fact that they're going to come back in a few weeks time. So it just feels like a very short term approach to dealing with the problem.