Peter Bregman
Appearances
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
So change is one thing. Boundaries and consequences for how you operate as a team is another. So Alan Mulally, who was the CEO of Ford for the turnaround in 2008, and before then he was the CEO of Boeing during September 11th. I mean, he's an unbelievable leader. And he was amazing at this. Whereas what he would do is he would say, these are the standards.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
And by the way, when he, just to give you an example, when he turned around Ford, Ford was losing billions and he turned it around so they were making billions. And this was during the recession when everybody else was taking bailouts. And he made that turnaround with essentially exactly the same team. There was a turnover of one person.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
But otherwise, the same 16 people who were driving Ford into the ground rescued Ford, right? So he changed them. He changed what they were doing. And he had a view of creating a certain set of boundaries. This is how we act on the team. These are my expectations. If someone wasn't fulfilling their expectations, he would say to them, that's okay. That's really your call.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
It's your choice whether you do this or not. There's nothing wrong with you for deciding to act differently than I'm stating that we're going to act. But you just can't do that here. I will help you leave well. It's your call. The one person who left, he had this conversation with and they left. Another person he had this conversation with and they decided to stay and change.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
But when you're working in a system, when you're working in a team, it is completely valid to set up clear standards of how we operate and hold people to it and then support them in changing if they want to. And if they don't change, then that's okay too, but there may not be a place for them on the team.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
I love that you asked that question. The clients that I work with are not remedial. I'm working with the top CEOs in the top companies. They are incredibly successful people. They're not people with tons of problems. Then the question is, well, why do they need me?
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
And the answer is when you are stuck in a problem or stuck in a rut or stuck in a problem or a habit or a challenge that you're not getting over, you cannot think your way out of it with your current capability because you're in it.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
You need, you know, if you're struggling in water, think of if you're like drowning in water and you can't swim, like you still need an arm to reach out and pull you out of the water. That arm is really important. So you don't have to be a brilliant person with all of the solutions already to help people.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
You just have to help them through a process where a different mind is thinking about their problem with them and helps them to see things they can't see otherwise.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
A hundred percent. And that's true for me. I've honed this process over 30 years of doing this, and I still need someone to think through the problems with me. I can't think, even though I know the process better than anybody, I still need someone to help me through it.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
So the most important step, the sort of turning the light on step is that first step of shifting from a critic to an ally. So when you really shift from this sense of, I care about you and I care about this and I'm not coming at this from anger or frustration, but I'm coming at this as someone who wants to help if it's helpful to you. If it's not helpful to you, it's not a problem either.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
that that approach as a as an ally versus a critic is the thing that switches you know kind of switches the light to say yeah i would i i have the control and i'd be willing to talk about it it certainly puts your defenses down i guess because if if you know if somebody comes to you as a critic you get defensive and you know off we go but this way there's nothing to be defensive over Yeah.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
And if they say no, they don't want to talk about it with you. Your acceptance of that no reinforces that they have the control. And what they realize, what they know, and what often happens is they will then come back to you, like I described with my daughter, because you're not threatening to them anymore. Like something has changed and they know, well, you know what?
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
I really do want to get better at this. And actually, here's someone who is willing to talk to me about it. They're probably my best bet. And I didn't feel judged by them.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
100%, 100%. It is very, very tempting. You really have to keep reminding yourself, I'm here in support of them. It's not about me. I'm here in support of them. And yeah, that's really critical.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
Yeah, and I think the real focus then is to sort of say, what is that outcome that we're trying to go to? So when you shift to the outcome and you're no longer talking about the problem, then you're in a more interesting, positive, engaged conversation.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
It's actually one of the things I always suggest to leaders that I'm coaching, which is if you're disappointed with someone's behavior and they've made a big mistake, if you go back and say, what were you thinking? What were you thinking in this when you decided to do this? That is a setup for a disaster of a conversation. And the reason...
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
is because they're going to tell you what they were thinking. It obviously wasn't smart thinking, but they're going to tell you what they were thinking. They're going to answer your question. And that's going to sound defensive. And you're going to see the holes in it because it obviously didn't work.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
And then you're going to get mad and then they're going to get defensive and it's just going to go back. And instead, I always suggest you say, instead of saying, you know, what, what were you thinking or what you say, what would you do differently next time? So now you've gone from a defensive, shameful conversation to one of hope and opportunity and energy.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
Excellent. A lot of fun, Michael. Thanks so much.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
Thanks so much for having me, Michael. It's great to be here.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
You can change other people. It's just that the way we try to change other people doesn't work because we're doing and saying the wrong things. And we're actually creating resistance. People don't resist change. They resist being changed. And so I change all the time. But if you try to change me, forget it. I'm going to fight because that's my loss of control.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
So we have to change people in ways that doesn't elicit the kind of resistance we end up fighting against.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
Exactly, and this process is not a magic manipulative process where I'm gonna give you three words to say and people will instantly hypnotically change. It does drastically increase your hit rate in helping people change, but it is ultimately about them. So most often we want people to change, right? Because there's something we're frustrated about.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
But that frustration is coming out of a place of care. Usually when you're frustrated or angry about something, it's because you care deeply about something. And almost always the thing you care about is in your mutual interest as well as their individual interest.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
But it's not being framed that way at all because you're coming off as sort of a critic of their behavior as opposed to an ally working with them.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
Sure. And you know what I'll do? I'll give you an example that fits your category of something where I want someone to change, but they don't necessarily want to change. And I'll up the ante and I'll make it my daughter who's 19, right? So now I want to change one of my kids.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
There is no point in this process where I am telling her what to do or giving her advice. I'm engaging with her in thinking about it and asking certain questions that always keep her in control.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
One day I went downstairs in the morning and I found her eating a chocolate chip cookie for breakfast and she looked up at me with this guilty expression and she said, yeah, this is the last one. I stayed up till four o'clock in the morning and baked a plate, baked a sheet of chocolate chip cookies and ate them all.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
And, you know, my instinct is to immediately criticize, like to be like, what are you thinking? Like, you don't want, you know, you told me you want to lose a little bit of weight and you're, this is how you're doing it. And like, seriously, chocolate chip cookies, is this what I've taught you? Chocolate chip cookies in the morning for breakfast?
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
But I immediately shortcut that process because I knew that that would instigate a resistance, denial. When we criticize someone, we come at them, or even when we give feedback to someone, we're eliciting their shame. We're telling them there's something you're doing that I'm pointing out that's bad. And people will do almost anything to avoid shame. So what do we do?
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
We go into either denial or defensiveness because those are the easiest ways to avoid, which is to say, I'm not doing it or I don't even know what you're talking about. And then that's a non-starter conversation because now we're in a conflict. I don't want to be in a conflict. I'm her ally, right?
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
And so what I said instead, I followed the first step in the four-step process is to shift from critic to ally. And we have a formula for doing that, which is three steps, which is empathize, which is express confidence and ask permission because it always has to be up to them. So I said, hey, I totally get it. You eating a plate full of cookies at 4 a.m.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
when you're exhausted and especially your cookies are awesome. Like there's no way I wouldn't have eaten, but I would have just joined you. I'm glad I wasn't up at four o'clock in the morning. So I totally get it. And I also can see the guilt in your face and how frustrating that must feel.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
I also know that you can make different decisions and do it differently if you want, because I've seen you do that in the past also. And do you want to think about this together? Do you want to think this through together? And so it's express empathy, express confidence, and then ask permission to engage in the conversation. That's the first step.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
And in the case of my daughter, which is why I brought this particular example up, in the case of my daughter, she said, no, I don't want to talk about it. And this is what's really important. That's her call. So I said, okay, no problem. And then I said, if you ever want to talk about it, I'm happy to talk about it with you. But I gave her the power.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
Later that afternoon, she came back to me with the confidence that it was up to her to say, hey, and a little distance from the situation and from her own shame around it and said, hey, can we talk about it? I kind of do want to talk about it with you, but I want to stop. Whenever I want to stop, you have to stop. And I said, that's fine. You're totally in control of this. This is for you.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
The second step is to identify an energizing outcome. So when there's a problem, when we're giving someone feedback, when we're telling them we want them to change, it's often de-energizing. We're basically telling them this thing they're doing is bad. People don't like to sink into problems. People get very narrow-minded around problems. Their energy gets sucked out.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
So the first thing you do is you say, what is the outcome you want that would actually be exciting to you? So that's step two. The negation of the problem, meaning if the outcome were just, I don't want this problem, it's I don't want to eat so much sugar, right? That's not very inspiring. So my next question is, for the sake of what? Like, what do you hope not eating sugar will give you?
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
The answer became... I'm an athlete and I want to think and act like an athlete. I'm a skier. I'm an ice skater. I want to do a double axle. I need the right strength to weight ratio to do that. So think about how much more inspiring it is to have an outcome that says, I want to act and be an athlete as opposed to I want to stop eating sugar.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
One is just depressing and the other is sort of exciting. Okay, so now that's step two. So we've got this energizing outcome. So step three is what is the opportunity that's hidden in the problem? Because we still have a problem. It's great that you want to be an athlete, but you still have this problem of eating too much sugar. So then the question is, what's the opportunity there?
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
And after asking certain questions, we get to the point that
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
actually the reason i'm eating that sugar is because i'm exhausted and it's you know in this particular case it was four in the morning and i was exhausted but in general i work myself too hard i push myself so hard and sugar gives me this burst of energy well all right that's interesting so the opportunity that you find hidden in the problem of eating too much sugar is rest
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
is like, I need to rest. And by the way, an athlete, like probably the most important thing that you can do for yourself as an athlete is to rest. So now we've got this outcome of an athlete and we've got the opportunity, which is I need to find more rest when I am yearning for sugar.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
That is a sign that I'm overtired and that I need to rest and I need to build rest into my life and I need to build rest into my schedule.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
and then that once we figure that out now we're up to the fourth step which is to plan specifically what am i going to do by when how am i going to do it and that plan is an experiment so it doesn't have to be perfect it doesn't have to be right we don't necessarily need to know that you will solve this 100 this week but we want to know that you can choose some action that you can do that will reflect movement towards the solution towards the outcome that you want to achieve
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
So here's the thing. There is no point in this process where I am telling her what to do or giving her advice. I'm engaging with her in thinking about it and asking certain questions that always keep her in control. It's her change. It's her choice.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
Exactly. So it's a great point, Michael. And that's why step four is the plan that says, I'm confident that I'm going to follow through on this, but it's not necessarily going to solve the whole thing. It's an experiment. I don't know if it's going to work or not. I just care that you're going to follow through on something that looks a little different.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
Let's get together again in a week and see how it's going. No shame with failure. That's just part of the process. We're scientists here. We're experimenting. We don't know what the solution is. about how to get better as opposed to just, you know, where we started, which was me criticizing you.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
So I think that that is absolutely her choice in a sense. This will not work with everybody in every situation because in order for people to change, they need four things. They need ownership, they need independent capability, they need emotional courage, and they need resilience, future-proofing when it gets hard. They need those four things.
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
Emotional courage is the willingness to feel hard things. We could build all of those things. But if ultimately she says, I don't care. I'm happy with eating those cookies. I don't really care what my weight is. I'm not so interested in being an athlete. I don't really care. I'm good. So you have to realize that when you want other people to change and you want to help them change,
Something You Should Know
How You CAN Change Other People & Some Interesting Science Explained
You show up as an ally to support them, but it's not going to be a, and you could predispose them to it. You can open them to the possibility of making the change. You could support them in making the change. You could give them ideas and ways of approaching it. But ultimately, it's going to be their call if they decide they don't want to.