Michael Pollan
Appearances
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
coming up on this episode of the dr hyman show ultra processed food i think is yeah it's it's a scourge if you go to latin america or south america where these food companies don't exert as much domestic power you'll find some powerful labels i mean skulls and crossbones and stop signs all right other countries are starting to deal with it unfortunately we haven't yet
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
when the amounts of, say, meat or sugar or salt hadn't actually changed. And this was kind of a paradox. And what he found was that, yes, even though the amounts of sugar and salt and fat hadn't changed, people were getting them in a new form instead of in home-cooked food They were getting them in highly processed food. Sweetened yogurt came into the market. Sodas came into the market.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Prepared meals came into the market. And he hypothesized that there was something about ultra-processed food that caused people to eat more of it. this idea was controversial until, uh, a man named Kevin Hall at the NEH decided to do a very controlled test where he, he had people live in a hotel for 30 days and gave them one of two meals.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
One was ultra processed and the other was, uh, you know, cooked normal food, uh, matched for percentages of, of fat and salt and all the, all the macronutrients. And, um, And lo and behold, he found that on the, and people could eat as much as they wanted of either. The people on the ultra-processed diet ate 500 more calories per person per day.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
And that is because the study didn't determine exactly why that was true. That work is going on now, but it clearly has to do with the way this food has been engineered. that it is engineered to be irresistible, addictive in various ways, but also that it's also engineered to be very quickly absorbed in the body. It has very little fiber, ultra-processed food.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
And that leads, I mean, you know this as a doctor, that leads to quick insulin spikes and that terrible cycle that gets started. So, um, ultra processed food, I think is, yeah, it's, it's a scourge and, um, other countries are, are starting to deal with it. Um, unfortunately we haven't yet.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Um, you know, if you go to Latin America or South America, um, where these food companies don't exert as much domestic power, um, you will find some powerful labels. I mean, skulls and crossbones and stop signs and, uh, You know, it's it's pretty intense if you go to Mexico or Chile or or Brazil.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
But so far, you know, there's I mean, Biden was supposed to announce front of package labeling of some kind. Hasn't happened yet, I don't think. But let's hope and let's hope it doesn't get diluted by the industry.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
I've heard the same thing.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
I think it's going to take power in Washington and specifically in Congress. I mean, that's where the problem lies. We've had a couple of White Houses that wanted to do the right thing and got stymied. The Obama administration didn't achieve all they hoped to around food, although Michelle Obama did some positive things.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
But, you know, I think they sort of chickened out on some issues, especially around antitrust during the Obama years. I have more hope for Biden's antitrust policies, which have some real teeth, much to the upset of the industry.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
One positive change since 2008 is like allies in Washington. And I'm sure you've had this experience too. There's a group of people in the House and now a couple in the Senate who are committed to food issues. We spent a lot of time with Cory Booker making the film.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
And here is a person who was an urban legislator and a mayor who gets to Congress and decides to use his political capital to get on the Ag Committee, the Agriculture Committee. That is not a place that ambitious urban legislators go. But he understands that the health of his constituents in New Jersey depends on what's going on on the farm.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
And if we're growing monocultures of corn and soy, his constituents are going to be eating ultra-processed food. And that until you change agricultural policies, you're not going to have an impact on nutrition and the issues we care about. And yeah, I mean, labels are really important and better information is really important. But in the end, food choice is driven in large part by price.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
And the unhealthiest calories are the cheapest calories in our food system. And that is what has to change. And that won't change until you have policy. So I think building, you know, a caucus of people who care John Tester is another one who has – he's a farmer himself, an organic farmer in Montana. Very popular despite the fact he's in a – Yeah, he is a great guy. And he gets it.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
He understands this industry. He sees what they're doing to farmers. And, you know, I also think the Democrats have to do a better job talking to farmers. I mean, they've completely lost that register, that vocabulary. And rural America has turned against Democrats. Yeah, it's true. We forget that Obama won Iowa twice. That is unimaginable today. Yeah.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Although I think one of the reasons that the Democrats lost it is because he disappointed expectations that he had created that he was going to be more helpful to farmers. So anyway, it's political organizing. It's hard work. And there is not a natural business constituency in favor of reform. You do have all these great small farmers and small food companies.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
But the food companies, the only exit for them is to sell to a big company. And that's how you do it. The returns on food are not very high compared to other parts of the economy.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Well, you know, it's interesting you bring that up, Mark. I always thought that the natural ally of the food industry were health insurers. Because if you can prevent, you know, for every case of type 2 diabetes you prevent, I remember seeing a number, and this is 10 or 15 years old, they saved half a million dollars over the life of that person.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
And I was invited to give a speech in Scottsdale, Arizona, to a group of presidents of health insurance companies. And I got up there and I gave a stem winder about how they should be allies of the food movement and how preventing chronic disease could make them money. And that, you know, they should really be in there fighting for a farm bill that privileged health over productivity.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
And this president of a health insurance company comes up to me after and he says, you know, with all due respect, you don't understand our business. Really? We have so much churn. We anticipate holding on to a customer for one year. So we don't make any money with prevention. And if the contracts were five years, that would change everything. So there is a lever you could pull, right?
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Longer contracts for health insurance. Try three years.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Yeah, Carlos Montero.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
I think it's a great place to start. I mean, I think that there are other issues too. You know, to the extent that our interest is about the health of the individual, but also the health of the planet, we have to look at meat eating and the amount of meat we're eating. I think that's an issue too, even if it's unprocessed.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
We're eating altogether too much meat or more than the planet can afford to make, particularly a beef. But I think ultra processed food, look, the message that works for people is their health. And I think that's a good place to start. You know, in terms of the definition, I think Carlos's definition is kind of brilliant. I mean, he basically says,
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
This is food made with ingredients you don't have at home. Just look at the label and you do not have all that stuff, all those weird long chemicals.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
I don't know about your pantry, but I can't find it. And then the other thing is, and you can't make it without a factory. Right, right. And I think we know what that is. And so it's hard to put in a law, I suppose, but there you have it. I think most people recognize it. I think we do have to educate people about it.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Cured meats people don't think of as ultra-processed, but of course they, you know, it's not a complicated process, but it renders them much less healthy as we're learning.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
2019, I believe. Yeah. That's right. I know. A lot's happened since then to both of us and to the world.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
I don't know the answer. I don't know how the processes differ. I mean, certainly we've been smoking meat for a long time. But, you know, the thing we have to remember is the quantities are so different today. You know, Americans eat nine ounces of meat per person per day. And that's unprecedented in the history of humankind. There just wasn't that much meat around.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Yeah, I mean, there were moments where people splurged on meat. But meat in most cultures is a flavoring and not a main course. I mean, think of the way the Asians use it or the Indians use it. And there's another way to eat meat and have the advantage of eating meat because it is nutritious food.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
But our idea that you have this big slab of animal on your plate and with some vegetables cowering in the corners, that's a kind of very novel Anglo-American idea.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Third plate, yeah.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
John Harris.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Well, I don't think we're going to eliminate them. I don't picture them going away entirely, but I could imagine them getting a lot smaller and a regenerative agriculture getting a lot bigger, acre by acre. The fact is that most of our best land in the Midwest is being used to grow feed for animals, not food for people. And that is not just the result of this is how capitalism works.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
It's the way we've organized the incentives. And we make it very easy for farmers to grow lots of corn and soy, neither of which are foods directly. They have to be processed. This is not corn on the cob we're growing or edamame. These are industrial commodities, raw ingredients. And they get broken down and teased into all those ingredients that become ultra-processed food.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
So we're subsidizing the unhealthy calories directly, and we don't have to. And we could, in turn, instead subsidize people who are, you know, pasturing their animals, you know, letting them live outdoors. which produces meat that is more flavorful and more nutritious. Can you do it at the same scale? Well, I think we have to look at that scale. I don't think we want to do it at that scale.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
It's just way too much. I mean, meat for most of history has been a luxury food. And we're treating it as a three meals a day food. And that's just not sustainable. I remember reading years ago a study, and I think it was World Watch or somebody, was looking at trends in meat consumption in China, where, of course, they're eager to eat meat at our rates.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
And their rate of meat eating is going up very quickly. In fact, we're growing a lot of their meat now. They're too smart to want to grow the feed for it. So they let companies like Tyson take on all the environmental and labor problems. And then they just ship over the sides of pork. That's right, Smithfields.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Smithfields is now owned by the Chinese, yeah. But it's very much of a colonial situation where we keep the pollution and they get the meat.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Yeah, in a lot of ways, they are. And so... Oh, yeah. And the study found that if the Chinese... we're eating meat at the rates we do, we would need 2.3 more worlds to grow all the grain necessary. And that's just not going to happen. So we need to, you know, if the Chinese are going to eat more, we need to eat less and a lot less. So I just think
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
The goal should not be one-to-one convert from feedlot agriculture to pastured agriculture. But I think we have to just re-examine the whole system. And this move toward synthetic meat is- Lab meat, you talked a lot about that in the movie, yeah. Yeah, is an effort to confront this.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
The premise of the industry, and this goes for both the people making plant-based meat and the people making what's called cultured meat, which is actually meat. meat cells that are fermented in a laboratory, basically. And this is starting to hit the market. And all these companies are founded on the premise that the way we're eating meat now is unsustainable and it should change.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
And a lot of the big companies are behind these cultured meat companies, including Tyson. But there's a few problems with that. So their premise is, of course, you're never going to get people to change their habits. So let's just change what a hamburger is or a chicken breast. And I don't buy that premise. I think changing people's behavior based on education and
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
knowledge and experience is well worth trying. It's certainly worked with cigarettes and worked with littering. And we can change deeply ingrained habits. But we have to work at it. And we have to tax them, probably. But their premise is, no, that's never going to happen. So let's change what the meat is made out of. The problem with the synthetic meat is that it's ultra-processed food.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
I mean, look at the ingredient list on Impossible or Beyond. It's got 20, 21 ingredients. And we did this. We went to their factory, and I interviewed Pat Brown. And it's an impressive piece of food science, I have to say. He's got this plant-based thing to behave like a burger on the grill. But it has an ingredient that hasn't been part of the human diet before, this heme iron from soybeans.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
And it's got all these ingredients and lots of, you know, methyl cellulose and stuff like that, which is essentially wood pulp. And it's GMO soy, so they're spraying glyphosate on it. That's right. And that's a real concern. And so, you know, you're... You're trading in, yes, you may be not killing a cow to make this burger, but you're eating an ultra-processed food that has its own issues.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
So, and then in the case of the culture- No, he didn't. You know, he has his eye on one thing. I mean, Pat Brown is an environmentalist first, and his goal as a vegan himself is to destroy the meat industry. And he's not selling health, or he wasn't. I mean, now they figured out you have to make a health claim to sell anything processed. The more bogus, the better.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
But his interest was just take, you know, whatever we have to do to take down the meat industry. Isn't that one of your health rules?
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Yes, yes. It was counterintuitive, but the basic idea was only packaged foods make health claims. I know, I know. And that the fresh produce is sitting there quietly in the produce aisle. The broccoli is not saying anything.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Yeah. Yeah, it's one of the ironies. I mean, you know, because you have to have, I mean, look, I mean, underlying this whole conversation, of course, as you know, is you can't sell real food for a lot of money. You know, I'm talking about produce and, you know... flowers and grains and things like that. You can't make money without processing it.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
And the more you process it, the more money you make. And that is the problem, the value added in terms of convenience and novelty and snackability and craveability. And that is our problem. I mean, and look at the percentage of the food dollar farmers get, you know, it's 10 or 12%. And the reason is that the processors, that's where you want to be.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Oh, thank you, Mark. I really appreciate your saying that.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
I mean, you can talk to executives in the food industry and they'll say, yeah, you know, farmers are not the way to make money. Making food. And, you know, as long as we are not cooking as a culture, that's going to be an issue because who's going to buy the raw, unprocessed, whole foods? It's going to be the people who are setting out to process it.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
I think it is so important on so many levels. It takes care of this health conversation automatically. Whatever you cook at home is going to be healthier than what you're buying. You're not going to make fried chicken every day. You're not going to make French fries every day. It's too messy and it's too big a pain. In the end, you're going to cook simply. And your family is going to benefit.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
But then there are all the spiritual benefits of it and even the political benefits. I really believe that what happens at the family dinner is a nursery of democracy. I mean, think about it now. We have such centrifugal lives. Everybody goes off to their room and they have their screens. And when do they come together? In the car and at the dinner table.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
And that's where we kind of learn how to talk in a civilized way, how to argue without fighting. It really is training for really important social and civic skills that we lack. So yeah, there's the food piece and the health piece, which is profound. But there's this other piece that we're losing too. And the problem is it's very hard for a man to make an argument for cooking.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Well, I share it with my wife. We're really 50-50 about it. We divvy up each meal. Who's going to do the protein? Who's going to do the vegetable or the salad? But in general, when a lot of women hear a man saying cooking is really important, often they hear, go back to the kitchen. And that's certainly not what I meant in that book. It was really about sharing this work.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
2.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
It's the responsibility of both parents and the kids. I mean, I think we need to get our kids to cook too. That was a big deal in our family when Isaac was growing up, that he had to do something to contribute to each meal. And I know he had sports and he had his... homework to do. And they always pull the homework excuse.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
But even if he had a lot of homework, he at least had to cut up an onion or mince some garlic or do something to contribute to what we were doing. And now he's a wonderful cook and he cooks for pleasure.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
They don't, they don't have the skills. I mean, you know, we, that, that chain of transmission from parents to kids, to their kids and their kids of how you cook has been lost. And, um, you know, home ec doesn't happen, uh, the way it did, cause that was too gendered. And, um, Uh, but I do think that, I mean, what you're talking is really important.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
The question is, how do you plant these values in the society? And I really think you do it in the public schools. Uh, I, I think as time goes on, you were asking for where the important leverage points are. It seems to me, uh, it's very exciting that, um, that the new vice presidential candidate is associated with a program to give two meals a day to children in Minneapolis.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Wall's passed this, and it's for everybody. It's not means tested or anything. It's a universal program. Now, this could all be Cisco processed food. I hesitate to dig in too far, but the basic idea that we have this opportunity to educate children about food by feeding them. But we have to pay attention to what we're feeding them, certainly. And we have to give them two more things.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
One is classes where they can learn how to cook, which they love. I mean, the edible schoolyard is around the corner from me. This is Alice Waters' project. And there they have a beautiful school garden where the kids grow food. And then they have a cooking class where they learn how to cook it. And then they eat it at lunch and it's their favorite time of the day.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
And what happens is they start bringing these skills home and they start introducing foods to their family that their family didn't ordinarily eat. And, um, so, you know, human habits are hard to change and you got to start young. And, um,
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
So I think as a focus of our energy, Alice Waters talks about school-supported agriculture, and she's trying very hard to get the schools in California to commit to buying locally to support the farmers. There's so much buying power in schools. But anyway, and to the extent that this next administration is talking about a set of policies around children, child tax credits and things like that,
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
I think it's a really good opportunity to inject these ideas of educating kids about how to eat, how to prepare food, and how to grow it.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Well, you know, when we did food Inc in 2008, it really did help launch a conversation. And, um,
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
And, you know, look, I mean, we're talking about political money, right? And the influence of money in politics has a tremendous influence on this, like so many other issues. And, but I also think that, you know, Taboos arise in society. I mean, it's entirely possible that ultra-processed food can acquire the image of something that it's like candy.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
It's like something, it's an indulgence you have every now and then, but as a regular way to eat is just really dangerous. And the problem though, too, is that the budgets, I remember Marion Nestle did this calculation That the entire government budget for educating people about food and, you know, showing them the nutritional recommendations when they come out. Zero.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Equals a single SKU, a single product from PepsiCo.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
uh there hadn't been a film that looked at the whole system quite the way that one did and uh it had a big impact it also led to a backlash um it was i i just remember how much pushback there was from the industry from the farm bureau which is a um not really a farmer's organization they hide behind farmers but they're really an agribusiness organization
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Actually, the food industry spends more on lobbying than the defense industry. So that gives you some idea of the scale of it. It's, it's vast.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Well, we went to a company called upside, which is, uh, near me here in Emeryville. Uh, And they are a very well-financed company with all the big players in agribusiness owning a piece of it. And I don't know why exactly, whether they believe in it or they want to control it or have a window on it. I don't know. But they're all there.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
It started by a doctor, actually, a cardiologist who adopted some of the techniques he was using to repair the heart with stem cells.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Uma Valetti, yeah. And he's very dedicated, very idealistic. And we were given a tour and we saw these great stainless steel vats. It looks like a brewery. Um, and it's, it's very similar kind of equipment. And in those vats, uh, are cells that are removed almost by, you know, it's a biopsy essentially. You don't have to kill the animal.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Uh, you just need cells and you start duplicating them and you have to feed them. And one of the challenges, there are two big challenges, um, scaling this is that the feedstock, which has to be pharmaceutical grade, this is the kind of feedstock you would use if you were growing cell lines in a laboratory, it has to be perfectly clean.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
And it's a mix of amino acids and fats and sugars and micronutrients, I assume. But you get a single bacteria in there and the bacteria will multiply much faster than your meat cells and you've got to throw out the whole tank. So, The issue is, and pharmaceutical-grade feedstock for cells is not cheap.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
The issue is, can a company like Cargill make trainloads of this stuff that will be so clean that you can use it? And that's a really open question. There's nothing that clean in our food system. If you've been in a slaughterhouse, if you've been in a grain elevator, doing things at that level of cleanliness is going to be very difficult.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
The other, though, is that in these tanks, you can multiply cells, but the final product doesn't look like a chicken breast and doesn't look like a steak. It looks like a slurry. And you can form that into chicken nuggets and form it into hamburgers. But to make cuts of meat takes another very expensive process that hasn't been perfected. And...
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
So when we went there, I got the full tour with Uma and he explained what he was up to. And then he sat me down and they cooked me a chicken breast.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Not quite. But we were fooled into thinking that the process we had just seen had produced this chicken breast. And this chicken breast, it was an impressive piece of technology in that It was a chicken breast. It wasn't like a beyond meat chicken breast. It was a chicken breast. It was kind of tough. And it cost, he said, like $500 to produce. It was this big.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
And they came after me and they came after Eric Schlosser and it was a real reminder how much power there is in the status quo in food. I had a series, I used to get invited to speak at agricultural schools, land grant colleges, and I love going to talk to young farmers.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
But subsequently, we learned through the work of another journalist, not me, that the process I was shown cannot produce cuts of meat. And that that's produced in a very bespoke system that's basically designed for journalists and chefs. Right, right, right. So I think that Upside is a long way from having a marketable product that's inexpensive.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Their plan is to mix this slurry with plant-based materials to create things that feel like chicken breasts and feel like steaks. But there we're back to processed food again.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Yeah, no, I think you're right. And I think that the feedstock is going to be the same old, same old. It's going to be the corn and soy, the monocultures of the Midwest, because that's the cheapest source of those ingredients, because that's what we
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
You know, that was an issue too with Impossible that they were going to initially, I think they wanted to use pea protein or something like that or, you know, something that would diversify if they got big, that would diversify agriculture. But in the end, they used GMO soy. And economically, it's hard to argue with that.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
So, you know, it's very interesting that these monocultures at the very base of our food system, the corn and soy grown in the Midwest, even when we change our food system, we're still on that same foundation. And that foundation has lots of problems. I mean, as you pointed to glyphosate, you know, there's so much glyphosate in the food supply now. A lot of it comes from soy.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Some of it comes from wheat though. One of the most absurd practices in recent years was that Farmers found that if they sprayed their wheat fields with glyphosate immediately before harvest, they could harvest earlier because they didn't have to wait for the plants to die and dry out. You know, they have to get to a certain level of hydration in the wheat berry before they can harvest.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
And all of a sudden, those invitations would get canceled, or I would go and there would be some counter-programming to shrink my audience.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
So they spray our food with this weed killer immediately before we eat it. I mean, this shouldn't be allowed. And so that's one of the reasons I will only buy organic flour because the rest of the flour now is contaminated.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Yeah, I think it's all of the above. I mean, I think antitrust is focused now on tech. But Lena Kahn knows a lot about the food industry. That was her first she first wrote about it. She's the person who runs antitrust at the federal trade commission. And she's, she's kind of amazing. She's fearless. And, uh, and that's why you hear all these wealthy democratic donors telling Kamala to fire.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
That kind of stuff. And then I had a gig at Cal Poly where they announced that It couldn't be a speech without challenge. I had to do a debate instead. Subsequently came out in the Los Angeles Times that the owner of the biggest feedlot in California, Harris Ranch, had threatened the president of Cal Poly if I was allowed to speak unchallenged and threatened to withdraw a gift.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Um, no, they've been doing it openly, Barry Diller and somebody else came out and said, she's got to go. And, uh, It'll be a real test of Kamala Harris whether she succumbs to that or not.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Yes. Well, that has to happen first. You're right.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
So, you know, I think they do, and Obama understood that. And, you know, I had a little window into what was going on in his process. And it was calculated that Michelle got involved in food issues. That was not her plan. She was going to do veterans' families, I think. And it grew out of conversations that they were having with people in the food movement, not me.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
But I think Obama's analysis was that there wasn't enough pressure. It was what you were talking about earlier, that he didn't feel the heat from the food movement enough. to spend the political capital. And that, you know, leaders don't really lead. I mean, they need to be pushed. And he said to people I know, he said, show me the movement and I'll move. And I think we failed to do that.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
I don't think we're well enough organized and I don't think we've got the numbers. And so, you know, some of it's on us. But yes, we're up against a really formidable government. set of enemies.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Well, and the climate impact, which only recently have people begun to hear about. The fact that the food system is a huge contributor to greenhouse gas production and that in ways people don't fully understand. And, you know, you go back to the first Inconvenient Truth, you know, landmark film that Al Gore did about and really helped put climate change on the national agenda.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
There was not a word about agriculture or food in that film. It just wasn't on anyone's radar. And now he definitely understands it. And I think everybody in the climate activism world understands it, but the public still needs to be educated about that, that the way you eat is much a part of your footprint, your environmental footprint as the kind of car you drive or how you heat your house.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
And we have to think about it that way.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
And in the same letter, which they got a hold of at the LA Times, he insisted they cancel a course on the grass feeding of livestock. of ruminants. And then I had a gig canceled at Western Washington University. And it all turned out to be Farm Bureau organized. And so it was an interesting reminder to me. It's like the McCarthy era.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Well, you know, there's a history in America of pushing on issues like this. And things proceed with incredible slowness and frustration for years and years and years. And then something happens. And suddenly, history speeds up. And that's why you got to stay at it. It's really important to stay at it. And it's hard to tell when you're going to have that confluence of factors come together.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
and give an issue the kind of prominence in the political debate. You know, sometimes it's a disaster. Sometimes it's, but it can be, it's very serendipitous. I mean, I've watched this with the psychedelic, you know, movement, you know, another movement I'm very involved in, you know, to bring psychedelics back into medicine. And, you know,
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
It's been very different than the food movement and kind of thrilling because it's been so fast. Why has it been so fast? Well, there's no opposition to speak of.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Yeah, pharma has been notably quiet. And I think they're starting to wake up and notice what's happening. They're often kind of late. But in general, it's been a good education to me on how politics works. And the strength of your opposition is a big part of it. But things can change really fast in this country. You know, we just, the last month has shown us that, how much can happen in a month.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
It's true. It's true. So I don't think we should assume because it's an uphill slog now that it will always be that. I think that the conditions will be right. I think that the issue is ripe for the kind of attention that it needs to really move it forward. When an issue is not front and center in our politics is when the lobbyists have the most power. That's right. Because they go unnoticed.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
But if we can raise the profile in the public conversation you know, that can do it. And, you know, we do have a ticket now on the democratic side with two people who really understand the importance of food and children. And, and so we should be lobbying them too.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Me too, me too.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
It was more than a- But then gay marriage happened really quickly. That's right. I mean, amazingly fast. Obama got flat-footed. It was flat-footed. Biden came out and like, what are you talking about? And then months later- So yeah, history speeds up sometimes.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
A foodist. And the idea they don't want young farmers to hear from somebody like me is a sign of, I think, insecurity. Anyway, but I thought I was done after I did that. I wrote several books on food. In addition to Omnivore's Dilemma, there was In Defense of Food and Food Rules. Botany of Desire had a lot of material on food. So I thought I had said what I had to say.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
And there was a whole generation of young food journalists who had taken the baton. And that was wonderful to see. And I moved on to other topics. But then when the pandemic hit... something really interesting and revealing happened with the food system.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
And you'll remember, you have to go back to those early days in March and April and May of 2020, when suddenly you couldn't find food in the supermarket. The shelves were bare. And at the same time, you saw on your television this incredible split screen, the bare shelves on one side, on the other, farmer's euthanizing chickens and pigs and spilling milk out on the ground.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
And the reason was that our food system, it turns out we have two food systems. One supplies supermarkets and consumers and the other supplies institutions, whether it's restaurants or schools or factories. And that one completely shut down because nobody was going to work or school. And so everyone got all their food at the supermarket or tried to, and the system crashed for a period of time.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
And the two systems don't relate to one another because we've had such concentration. So the kinds of companies that are selling, say, liquefied eggs in the institutional food chain didn't have the containers to sell their eggs in a supermarket.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Ditto toilet paper. Remember the famous toilet paper shortage? There were giant rolls. Well, you know, the way that toilet paper is sold to institutions is on these giant rolls and they couldn't sell those in the supermarket chain. So we really learned something about the system, that it was highly centralized and specialized and really brittle. And that, of course, is the cost of efficiency.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
You can get a very efficient system, and we have that in some ways, but it's only efficient if there are no shocks. And as soon as you get a shock, the brittleness of the system reveals itself. The other thing that revealed itself was the political power behind the food system.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
And the most telling instance here, and this really got our attention that spring when we were deciding whether to make a sequel or not, was the day that John Tyson took out ads in the Washington Post, the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, an open letter to the president. And the reason they were doing that is because the public health authorities
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
were trying to shut down some of their processing plants in the high plains in Iowa because they had become vectors. They were bringing COVID into these communities. These people were working really close to one another in the cold with no PPE. And people were like turning off the production lines and vomiting and going right back to work. They were sick.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
And the public health authorities in these towns and Waterloo, Iowa is the one we focused on. We're trying to like close them down for a while to clean them up and put some protocols in place.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
And rather than do that, the president of Tyson writes this letter asking the president of the United States, who was Donald Trump at the time, to invoke the Defense Production Act to force open their production lines. And lo and behold, two or three days later, the president does it. The president writes an executive, signs an executive order written or drafted by Tyson and
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
opening up their production lines. And the reason we have antitrust laws in this country is to avoid concentrations of power. It's not just to protect consumers from price gouging. It's to protect the republic from overly powerful interests. And if you ever needed an example that we had gone too far in that direction, when you can have a company force the president's hand, and
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
And the Defense Production Act, you should understand, was something passed in the 50s, giving the president the power to force a company to do things in the public interest that they don't want to do. Like, say, a car company should start making tanks because we're in wartime or planes.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
And basically, this was a perversion of the act because it was allowing the company to do exactly what it wanted to do. but using the federal power to do it. So all of this told us that the food system had reached a point of crisis in terms of concentration, and that was a reason to reopen the story and take another look at the food system.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Yeah, or meat. There are four companies slaughter all the beef. Look at infant formula. Remember that crisis? There are only two companies that sell all the infant formula. And when one of them had a contamination problem on their production lines, Mothers couldn't get formula. So if you had 20 companies or 10 companies, a screw up at one of them would not have affected everybody. But.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
So it's the old adage, we're putting all our eggs in one basket and that's never a good idea.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Yeah, it's one of the saddest things. You see these creative startups doing healthy food or doing innovation, and they get gobbled up right away. And invariably, when they get gobbled up, they add to the amount of sugar in the products, which always increases sales, and add salt, and kind of destroy the golden egg that they've just bought.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
I did too. I love TV dinners.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Yeah, well, that's the other big story that we focus on in fooding too, because that's the other big change since 2008. The term ultra-processed food was not in use then. We talked about junk food a lot, or processed food. But a lot of research has been done since then to really pinpoint the fact that the degree of processing of food matters greatly to our health. And
The Dr. Hyman Show
Ultra-Processed Food Is the New Tobacco—How Big Food Manipulates Science, Policy, & Your Cravings | Michael Pollan
Ultra-processed food, the term was coined by Carlos Monteiro, who was an epidemiologist in Brazil, in Sao Paulo. And he's a very interesting character who's in the movie. And he was trying to understand, you know, 10 or 15 years ago, why was it that Brazilians were putting on so much weight and having rising rates of diabetes and
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
I was surprised too.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Yeah, I mean, we wanna control ourselves and our environment. And if we're not completely, if we don't feel completely safe, we're not gonna let our minds travel. And the guide is looking out for your body. Roland Griffith used to say, you're going out to outer space, don't worry, we're right here, we're mission control. We'll keep an eye on your body. Yeah. So your mind can travel.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Yeah, I'm very hopeful that that is happening. We have a lot of research. We need more. But all the treatments we have, SSRIs, et cetera, really only deal with symptoms. They don't deal with causes. We have no drugs that deal with causes of mental illness and actually provide cures. And this, at least in these initial studies, And these are trials with a couple hundred people.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
They're not huge yet. We're seeing positive and lasting results. You asked about OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder. There was a trial at Yale using psilocybin and people had permanent relief. You know, one of the questions that I had myself is, wait a minute, this is a little suspicious. This one substance works on OCD and anxiety and depression and addiction and anorexia.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
This seems a little too good to be true. And I posed this question to a very well-known psychiatrist who'd been head of the National Institute of Mental Health. And I said, is this a panacea? Is this for real? And he said, well, why do you think all those different things are different illnesses?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
They may be different manifestations of the same kind of brain, a brain that is stuck in patterns of behavior and thought that it can't get out of. And maybe what the psychedelics are doing... Right? It was like the light bulb went off.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
And we are victims of our habits.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
And they may just be different symptoms rather than different disorders. So that I understood.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Absolutely. I mean, what's happened since 2018 is I never would have imagined. how many, you know, how many studies are going on, how much research is being done and how many people are seeking psychedelic therapy.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Yeah, from a rigidity of thought and what psychedelics do in adults. I saw, Reagan, you had that aha moment too, right?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
I know it does feel like magic. Yes. But I, so I think that what psychedelics seem to do is make the brain more plastic, able to learn. There's a beautiful metaphor that a scientist gave me once that think, think of your mind as a snow covered hill. and your thoughts as sleds going down that hill.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
And over time, the grooves get deeper and deeper and you can't go down the hill without falling into one of those grooves. The psychedelics are like a fresh snowfall that fills all the grooves. You can take a new path down the hill. Ooh, I love that metaphor.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
It is a wonderful question. And there's a lot of kind of suspicion and hostility among scientists and medical professionals at the word spiritual. Yet you can make a case that many things we call mental disorders are spiritual diseases. I mean, addiction is a spiritual disease. And what is at the root of a lot of these disorders is a lack of connection.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
a sense of isolation, separation, you know, you're encased in your ego. And so I think we have to educate medical professionals that spiritual approaches have medical value. And that's not the way they think.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
And there's one other difficulty about incorporating this in our medical system. And that is that, Psychedelic therapy is not just about taking a psychedelic. It really should be called and often is psychedelic assisted psychotherapy because the support of the guide or the therapist is critical to its success. And the FDA, which regulates drugs in our country, only regulates drugs.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
They don't regulate therapy. So how are they going to deal with this thing? It's a square peg in a round hole. And that's going to be a challenge. I think we can work through it.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Yes. And I really didn't think that there was a, you know, large audience for a book on psychedelics. I was just personally fascinated. But yeah, I mean, I think the book, I hear from, especially from scientists, that it became okay to study this after the book came out.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Yeah, I mean, I think if you're gonna use a high dose of psychedelics, you need to use a guide. I mean, people can take a couple of mushrooms and wander in the woods and they'll be fine. But at a high dose, there are risks. I mean, we should be realistic about it. Some people do have serious psychological problems. bad trips that last a very long time, guides can help you work through that.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
They give you very specific advice when things get very dark, because I think we should not underplay the fact that these experiences can be very challenging. And that can be productive. But in the process, you can encounter demons.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
That's right. And the guides know exactly what to tell you to get through that. I mean, they're very specific. They call them flight instructions. And they'll tell you, if you see a monster, don't turn and run away. Go right up to it and say, what do you have to teach me? Why are you in my mind? And you will pass through that dark into a lighter place.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
And that attitude of curiosity rather than fear and anxiety changes everything.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Yeah, right. In and through is the other thing guides are always saying. In and through.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
So microdosing is a very different approach to using psychedelics. It's not guided. It's a very tiny dose. It's like... a 10% of a normal dose. And people do it not every single day, they'll do it a couple of days and then a day off because you build up a tolerance. And many people report relief from depression from it. There is not a lot of science yet on it.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
It's very hard to study because no university institutional review board is gonna let you give any amount of LSD to somebody and let them drive off in their car. It's a dose that you don't even feel. It's sub perceptual. Where is everybody getting this stuff anyway? Well, that's a good question. I don't know. I don't know that. Okay.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Thank you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
But it's around and people are selling gummies with psilocybin, even though it's not legal. They're around, they're on the internet. So- Microdosing may be a placebo effect. It may be, and the placebo effect is real. Make no mistake, people get better. If you have back trouble and I hand you a sugar pill, you will feel better. It's a very powerful effect.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
And it multiplies when you are microdosing something like LSD, which already has this magic aura about it. So it may be that, but we don't know yet. The science is not in yet.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
It's a big promise. That's a big promise. But what got me really interested and making me realize, so I had had very little experience of psychedelics personally. I was afraid of them. I didn't think I was sturdy enough psychologically to have a big psychedelic trip. And I didn't do it when I was in college.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Who passed in 2018, in fact.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
And it's such a valuable lesson because you don't, it teaches you, I'm not identical to my ego, so I don't have to listen to that voice in my head. It's like, all right, that's that voice. Yeah. Disregard. Yeah.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Legally. Legally. Well, there is a way to do it legally. Well, there are two ways. One is there are many, many trials going on around this country, universities and other institutions. And you can go on trials.gov. and search psilocybin or MDMA, and you may find a trial that you qualify for. The other way is to go to Oregon or Colorado.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
But I wrote an article about a study where they were giving psychedelics to people who had cancer diagnoses, many of them terminal.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
These are two states that have made guided psilocybin experiences I can't say legal because it's still a federal crime, but it's state legal and fairly safe from a legal point of view. And there are people there who have to get licenses as guides. The growers are licensed. The facilities where they're administered is licensed.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
I know. That's an amazing interview. Yes.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
You know, I always saw myself as not a spiritual person. And I also had a misunderstanding of what spiritual meant.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
I know. Well, because I thought to be spiritual meant believing in the supernatural. And I was, you know, not. I was very grounded. You know, I had a very material view of reality. But I realized that was wrong, that you can be spiritual without believing in the supernatural. And that the essence of spiritual... is connection, deep, profound connection with something other than yourself.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
And so when I redefine it that way, yeah, these were powerful spiritual experiences. And I came to understand the opposite of spiritual is not material or materialistic. The opposite of spiritual is egotistical.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
That is so darn true. It is the ego that stands in the way of our spiritual development.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
There's a reason we have all these egos. You know, it gets books written. It gets TV shows produced. Yes. But it also gets in the way of connecting to others.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
I think people do it through meditation.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
I think psychedelics in some way are a shortcut. A lot of people have trouble meditating. They're not sure they're doing it right. They can't. They can't.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
That's right. Or if you have OCD, you're going to have intrusive thoughts when you're meditating. So I think it kind of breaks people through to a place where they can meditate successfully, but without question. And people have had these mystical, spiritual experiences without drugs. Experiences of nature can do it. Experiences of art can do it.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
The mystical experience, which is what this technically is called in the literature, can be approached from a lot of different doors. Psychedelics are just one of them.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
So he was doing a study, he hadn't published it yet, giving psychedelics, psilocybin specifically, magic mushrooms in pill form, to people who had cancer diagnoses. And I interviewed about a dozen of them. And they told me stories of personal- May I just tell people who he was?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
I think being present for it. We spend so much of our time worrying, thinking about the future, thinking about the past that we let the present go by. And for me, that's one of the, not to say I've mastered this at all, but my psychedelic experience and which has been followed by a meditation practice. That's kind of like psychedelics are not a practice.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
You can't, you're not gonna do it that many times. But you need a practice to reinforce it.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Exactly, exactly. But after the door is open, you want to keep this way of thinking and these memories alive. One of the things I meditate about very often are psychedelic experiences I've had. They're... They're the stories of you and they're endlessly, you can replay them endlessly. One of the interesting things about psychedelic experiences, it's not like dreams, which are hard to remember.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
You remember these. These experiences are indelible. I can summon images from my experiences on psychedelics.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Yes, he really got what's called the psychedelic renaissance started with his research.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Yeah, in 2006. And that really launched the whole revival of psychedelic research, which had been a big thing in the 50s and 60s. I didn't realize it. But in the 50s, LSD was considered a wonder drug. There were six international conferences on LSD alone. There were- In the 50s. In the 50s, up till 1965, from 50 to, yeah.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
So we think of psychedelics- And then it just got banned and also people said- Yeah, the drug war. to the drug war. Yeah, and President Nixon who starts the drug war said that the drug war, there's a quote that he gave to John Ehrlichman, his domestic policy advisor, that we're going after LSD to get the hippies and cannabis to get the blacks. And those were his two enemies.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
And that's what the drug war was really about. And so anyway, there had been all this very promising research. LSD was being used to treat alcoholism with a lot of success. So I didn't know this whole backstory. I thought of psychedelics as a 60s thing, but actually it's really a 50s thing.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
And there was this promising research that gets shut down and we lose like 30 years of research that is just now resumed.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Yeah, there are definitely people who shouldn't mess around with these substances. People at any risk of schizophrenia, you know, if you have a relative that has schizophrenia. Yes. Usually bipolar, they don't want you in the studies. You need to leave these drugs alone. Yeah, but people struggling with addiction, anxiety, OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder, trauma. Trauma.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Yeah, those are mental disorders that- PTSD, we're gonna talk to somebody later.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Yeah, I mean, people, you know, people, the term recreational is regarded as a negative. I mean, to recreate ourselves doesn't seem that bad. But yeah, there are people who are just doing it for thrills, going to concerts.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Yeah, it does change consciousness. But the set and setting are very important. So the context in which you do it, you know, if you do it to go to a Grateful Dead concert, it's one thing. If you do it in a room, the way psychedelic therapy is done is you're lying down, you're on a couch, you're wearing eye shades, you're listening to music. It's a very internal journey.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
It's very different than kids taking mushrooms and walking in the woods where it's all about the sensory thrills.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
It's a completely different experience.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Right. And the guide is really important.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Yes. Yes. Yes. I was scared for a lot of reasons. One was would I discover some deep, dark secret about myself? Because people do discover traumas that they're not looking for. Yes. That definitely comes up.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Yeah. But I also found that doing it with a guide creates this safe envelope, this container in which you can really let go.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
I was doing a dose of LSD.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
It's a very powerful drug, it's measured in micrograms, not milligrams and you take a very, very tiny amount and it's usually on a piece of paper. So is it a pill or a powder? It's usually on a piece of blotter paper, they just put a little drop and you put the piece of paper on your tongue and that's enough.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
And the experience was, I saw my son, I saw my wife, I saw my parents and there was this, it was like a tree house being built layer by layer by layer by layer. And it was a kind of a life review. And I emerged from it with this just surge of compassion for these people in my life.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
And I had this realization, which like 90% of people on Psychedelic seem to have, which is the most important thing in the world is love. Now that's obvious,
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
With a conviction that I hadn't had before.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Yes, exactly. You really hit on it. The kinds of insights you have on psychedelics for reasons we don't really understand are really sticky. This isn't just an opinion or an insight. This is like a revealed truth of the universe. It's a knowing.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
It comes through. It's revealed knowledge.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
I know what episode you're talking about. Yeah. So I... Years ago, I built a little studio where I write and I've written my books. And... it faces two trees. And one is a very elegant white oak that's kind of leaning. And the other is this kind of stolid ash tree. And having taken, in this case, psilocybin in my garden, I had this power. I mean, you know I love plants.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
And I've been writing about plants for a long time. And I'm a gardener and you are too. That the plants were conscious and they were awake. I had this sense that the plants in my garden were kind of like, looking at me and there were these two trees and I suddenly realized- So I think that, and I'm not on psilocybin.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
On psilocybin, they'll say hello back. So, and these two trees I hadn't realized before, oh, that's my mother and that's my father. And the one that was my father, that tree had just had fallen, a giant limb had fallen off and he was sick at the time. And I realized that they were both gonna go eventually. And it was very moving and they were embodied.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Yeah, I think a key word for what psychedelics do is connect you. And for me, it's about connecting to nature. It was connecting to people. And the reason that happens, I think is that psychedelics soften your ego. And the ego is, you know, ego is a walled structure, right? It's a barrier. It's a defensive structure.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
That's right. They feel they're identical to their ego. But you're not. You're not. It's just one voice and it can get quiet. And one of the things that happens on psychedelics And we understand this neuroscientifically. There's a structure and a network in the brain called- You're not the voice, you're actually the observer.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
There's a lot in common actually.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Yeah, but having done psychedelics, I became a better meditator because I understood, oh, this is where I'm trying to go. But this sense of, you know, your ego softening and in one case I had completely disappearing. I had a ego death experience, which I can tell you about.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
When the ego goes down, there's nothing between you and nature or you and other people or you and the universe, and you feel like the sense of oneness.