Matthew May, MD
Appearances
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
David, could I invite you to demonstrate how to find a self-defeating belief in a role play?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah, I was going to ask you to demonstrate the what if technique and I'll pretend to be a patient.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I think we'll find our way there with this one. I've pre-written something. Okay. And I think this will be a way to bring it to life. Let's say I've got a belief or a negative thought that I'll fail my test tomorrow.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And I'm freaking out because I'm afraid I'll fail my test.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Right back at you, David.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Well, then maybe I'll never get a good job. I'll never get a good job.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
That would mean I would be worthless.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
It's even worse than that. Then everyone would reject me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Everyone would reject me because I'd be so worthless.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I would be the most worthless person, but then I would also then be miserable forever.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
If that were true.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah, yeah. I was... trying to create a very realistic sample of what it's like to go through this process of an uncovering technique to arrive at the self-defeating beliefs. And I think that that went really well, and I agreed with all of those points.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
that Rhonda and you named, I summarized it as, I must be successful, accomplished, productive, and popular, or I'm worthless and will be miserable forever. That I require all those things in order to be worthwhile and happy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Well said, David. I really appreciate that also.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
That's cool. I have a response to your question about a Buddhist way of thinking about self-defeating beliefs, too. I'm not a Buddhist, but I like— There are no Buddhists at the time in the United States. Is that right? Yeah. I'm just sort of beginning as a Buddhist. But the—
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I think a thought like, you know, I need this or that or this other thing before I could approve of myself and love myself or be happy or feel worthwhile is, like Jason said, it's this concept of attachment. I need these things before I could be okay. I think the Buddha pointed out that that is a common thing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
problem that people have that they don't want to be happy right now they want all these other things first and that if we let if we're willing to sacrifice and let go of those requirements then we can be happy right here right now yeah and if we're not if we're attached if we're demanding we have to have these other things then we simply cannot be happy in that moment i i i love that um
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And the acceptance paradox. Yes. We've probably demonstrated that a hundred times, but we could always do it again for one of these self-defeating beliefs.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
The achievement addiction? Yeah. I'm worthless. Maybe I could play, do you want me to play the negative thought in a role play?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
My worth is my work. OK, my achievements, I have to be really successful in order to be worthwhile.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah, David, I'm your negative thoughts, and I just wanted to let you know that you're getting older, you're less successful, you're not accomplishing as much. And I just wanted you to know that that means that you're worthless.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah. I think that was a good example of the counterattack.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah, definitely. I've been looking forward to meeting up with you again.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
So many. So many. I don't even know all of them.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I'm not, though. And that's another flaw that I have is that I have such low standards that I just go around approving of myself for no reason at all.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Someone should write a book called Feeling Good.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I like that idea a lot, David. I didn't hear all the thoughts. They went by kind of quickly.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I would be willing to try that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I definitely feel nervous and kind of worried about the talk. But I think even if I really mess it up, that most people are really kind and forgiving. And I could just ask them for feedback and connect with them even if I really mess it up. I think I've also done a good job practicing and preparing. And I know a lot about the topic.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
So I bet I can actually do a pretty good job even if I'm just winging it. And either way, I'm going to be satisfied with the outcome.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I think I won that one.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Large or huge? I think it was pretty huge. There might be room for something else in there.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Let's try that again.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
It felt huge to me. I'm going to say that was huge.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Well, you'll probably outshine me, Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Go for it, David.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I think you should.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
You can hit me with that, Rhonda, if you'd like.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I did. I was thinking the same thing. I was thinking, oh, my gosh, what am I talking about? I'm not making any sense here at all, and I was feeling kind of anxious and worried. I'm such a relief to talk to you about it. I'd love to get your thoughts on it, and I just so admire you for being a straight shooter. Oh, yeah, thanks. Your opinion on my talk.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Well, I've always thought that you're a really awesome, important human being, and I'm really glad for the feedback. If you have any specific pointers for where I could improve, I'd be delighted to hear about that. But I don't want to hold you up. It looks like they're kind of waiting for you over there.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I felt good about that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I do, David, and I've also got some other thoughts that might be helpful for this person.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah. Right. So you're pointing out that maybe it's not so much the anxiety that's the problem but the shame around it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah. And so I, I agree. I think one of the best, uh, antidotes is to start talking about the feelings openly. And that's, uh, and there are multiple other social exposure exercises that people, uh, with social anxiety can do, uh, that can relieve.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Self-disclosure. Right. Yeah. You know, I noticed I'm feeling a little anxious right now. Um, and then, uh, positive reframing can be helpful too. Like we get anxious because we care a lot about this project that we're doing in this audience and we want to give something really meaningful to people. And to remind ourselves of that can be helpful.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I'll sometimes use the magic dial on myself, like how anxious do I need to feel right now to make sure everything goes perfectly.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I have a couple of other comments. I love what Jason and David and Rhonda have already said about this. One concern I have is that sometimes people with anxiety are hoping that the anxiety will go away first, and then they'll face their fears. But my experience has always been the opposite, that if I'm facing my fears on a regular basis, then my anxiety goes away.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And so it may just be that there's kind of a process resistance and that one of the best techniques this person could do is just to keep giving public speeches and more frequently and longer speeches and get more involved in that. And then I suspect their anxiety, in fact, would kind of go away over time.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
All right. I'm happy to say a few things about it. Maybe to clear up one point quickly is that, in fact, you can work with a self-defeating belief the same way you would any other negative thought in the team model. In fact, if you've learned other ways to defeat negative thoughts, you can just apply that to your self-defeating belief.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
That was a little fantasy right there. Yeah, exactly. Acceptance.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I think it might be useful just to define what a self-defeating belief is. I noticed that I struggle a little bit to define exactly what a self-defeating belief is. I might use words like a summary of or composite of negative thoughts. It's...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
It's tempting to use words like core or a central thought, and it seems almost – I imagine like a fire and little sparks coming out from it and kind of igniting other negative thoughts. And I've put up an example of how to find your self-defeating beliefs in the show notes using uncovering techniques. Okay. And so what is an uncovering technique?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Maybe I'll leave that as a new thing to define and someone else can talk for a little bit.