Justin Garrison

You're going to go... point the iPhone 25 at this ground spots and like get this image back. It's going to transmit down. You see like a terabyte a day out of this. Like you're just taking pictures constantly. And then you process that a little bit more and then send them either raw data or whatever it is that they're looking for. Right. Like that's the general pipeline here.

You're going to go... point the iPhone 25 at this ground spots and like get this image back. It's going to transmit down. You see like a terabyte a day out of this. Like you're just taking pictures constantly. And then you process that a little bit more and then send them either raw data or whatever it is that they're looking for. Right. Like that's the general pipeline here.

What was the benefit there of not making the satellite a dumb client and putting intelligence in the satellite and on the ground? Cause it feels like you could put that either place and you, you chose the hardest decision to put it in both places. Like there has to be value that you're getting out of doing that process before.

What was the benefit there of not making the satellite a dumb client and putting intelligence in the satellite and on the ground? Cause it feels like you could put that either place and you, you chose the hardest decision to put it in both places. Like there has to be value that you're getting out of doing that process before.

I mean, if you're just sending a terabyte, like, I don't know, was that just a big antenna with a satellite dish up there? Just like beaming down death rays of pictures. Yeah.

I mean, if you're just sending a terabyte, like, I don't know, was that just a big antenna with a satellite dish up there? Just like beaming down death rays of pictures. Yeah.

Yep.

Yep.

How do you debug that? Like, is that only like you have a dev box on your desk and you're saying like, oh, I think this is what's happening, right? Like at some point when you debug something, you just have to kind of poke at it. But I can't imagine like that latency, you have a 90 minute window. I don't know how long that window lasts, but you're like, oh, I got a shell for 89 seconds.

How do you debug that? Like, is that only like you have a dev box on your desk and you're saying like, oh, I think this is what's happening, right? Like at some point when you debug something, you just have to kind of poke at it. But I can't imagine like that latency, you have a 90 minute window. I don't know how long that window lasts, but you're like, oh, I got a shell for 89 seconds.

Like I got to jump on the box and like poke at something.

Like I got to jump on the box and like poke at something.

I can only imagine the like constant TMUX session. That's like, oh, it's coming back around. Let me connect to it again. Hold on. That's just amazing.

I can only imagine the like constant TMUX session. That's like, oh, it's coming back around. Let me connect to it again. Hold on. That's just amazing.

Oh, and then your SSH hangs and you're like, dang.

Oh, and then your SSH hangs and you're like, dang.

That is exactly what I would hope to be.

That is exactly what I would hope to be.

There's so many challenges in this. What would you say is like one of the things that stood out to you as like something you didn't expect? Because I mean, you're going into this knowing this is going to be a hard thing to do. There's a lot of variables and things at play. What is something that surprised you about shipping software into Orbit that you're like, wow, I didn't see that one coming?

There's so many challenges in this. What would you say is like one of the things that stood out to you as like something you didn't expect? Because I mean, you're going into this knowing this is going to be a hard thing to do. There's a lot of variables and things at play. What is something that surprised you about shipping software into Orbit that you're like, wow, I didn't see that one coming?

I wonder what the culture was like in the 60s. Right. When it's like we are landing on the moon because that like they had to move faster. Like my grandfather actually worked on the Apollo missions, which is just like his pictures were absolutely amazing. And it was I never got to hear stories from him of like what the culture was like.

I wonder what the culture was like in the 60s. Right. When it's like we are landing on the moon because that like they had to move faster. Like my grandfather actually worked on the Apollo missions, which is just like his pictures were absolutely amazing. And it was I never got to hear stories from him of like what the culture was like.

But I can only imagine that like at some point you're just like, no, this has to happen this decade. Right. Yep.

But I can only imagine that like at some point you're just like, no, this has to happen this decade. Right. Yep.

someone's you know so someone said we're going to the moon and the fact that like so many people and so much funding and money was in place to do that and now on the opposite side where it's like no one told you to do this like no one told you this is the the thing we have to do and and so the initiatives are very different of like hey we see where we can add value to people that's

someone's you know so someone said we're going to the moon and the fact that like so many people and so much funding and money was in place to do that and now on the opposite side where it's like no one told you to do this like no one told you this is the the thing we have to do and and so the initiatives are very different of like hey we see where we can add value to people that's

maybe had to drive their truck for two days to go see this pipeline or something like that. Like, Hey, I got you in an hour and a half and you're going to get your images and they're gonna be processed and we'll see all that stuff that maybe you couldn't see before. And that's just pretty amazing to be able to add that value that quickly.

maybe had to drive their truck for two days to go see this pipeline or something like that. Like, Hey, I got you in an hour and a half and you're going to get your images and they're gonna be processed and we'll see all that stuff that maybe you couldn't see before. And that's just pretty amazing to be able to add that value that quickly.

What's the lifespan? We're talking like servers are like seven years, right? Like I can buy a server, put it in a rack and I hold it for seven years. You launch a spaceship and how, not a space, I don't know a technical term. It's obviously a satellite because there's no propulsion or anything. What is the lifespan of those first three satellites that you launch?

What's the lifespan? We're talking like servers are like seven years, right? Like I can buy a server, put it in a rack and I hold it for seven years. You launch a spaceship and how, not a space, I don't know a technical term. It's obviously a satellite because there's no propulsion or anything. What is the lifespan of those first three satellites that you launch?

Like Starlink, do you have satellite-to-satellite communication to help with that 90-minute delay? And will five satellites reduce that for you significantly?

Like Starlink, do you have satellite-to-satellite communication to help with that 90-minute delay? And will five satellites reduce that for you significantly?

All right, thank you so much, Andrew Gunther, for being on the show today. And today we're talking all about shipping in space. And so welcome to the show. And my first question is, when you have some code that's running in space on a rocket ship, and if it's a class that maybe is undeclared, is that an unidentified flying object?

All right, thank you so much, Andrew Gunther, for being on the show today. And today we're talking all about shipping in space. And so welcome to the show. And my first question is, when you have some code that's running in space on a rocket ship, and if it's a class that maybe is undeclared, is that an unidentified flying object?

would that be like the outro net?

would that be like the outro net?

I got the pun.

I got the pun.

Who's the jerks in space? Is Starlink, is that, they just litter everywhere and we can't see around them? Is there some other, these people don't have another country that's like, well, they're not working with FCC, so they just threw. If you can't answer it, that's fine, but I'm curious now, is there space beef between satellite vendors now?

Who's the jerks in space? Is Starlink, is that, they just litter everywhere and we can't see around them? Is there some other, these people don't have another country that's like, well, they're not working with FCC, so they just threw. If you can't answer it, that's fine, but I'm curious now, is there space beef between satellite vendors now?

How close is really close? Like, I think a space is like is like you're hundreds of miles away. But no, this is really close is probably close enough that somebody called, right?

How close is really close? Like, I think a space is like is like you're hundreds of miles away. But no, this is really close is probably close enough that somebody called, right?

But what's the heads up for that? Is that like you have 10 orbits and then you're done? Or is this like, hey, like 90 minutes?

But what's the heads up for that? Is that like you have 10 orbits and then you're done? Or is this like, hey, like 90 minutes?

I can just imagine you're like wiggling the camera, like trying to focus back and forth to like get out of the way. Like maybe we can move something.

I can just imagine you're like wiggling the camera, like trying to focus back and forth to like get out of the way. Like maybe we can move something.

I literally was up last night and I thought of that. Like I woke up and I was like, that's the joke. And I'm like, oh, I'm such a dad. Anyway.

I literally was up last night and I thought of that. Like I woke up and I was like, that's the joke. And I'm like, oh, I'm such a dad. Anyway.

But every time they're like, the call options have changed. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But every time they're like, the call options have changed. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So your satellite is forever. Norad always thinks your satellite is now.

So your satellite is forever. Norad always thinks your satellite is now.

Clerical, that was good. That was a pun. Yeah.

Clerical, that was good. That was a pun. Yeah.

So anyway, bad jokes aside, Andrew, tell us about yourself and what you were doing at Orbital Sidekick.

So anyway, bad jokes aside, Andrew, tell us about yourself and what you were doing at Orbital Sidekick.

Yeah. PCAP file, read it in and like parse the spinning, spinning those PCAPs.

Yeah. PCAP file, read it in and like parse the spinning, spinning those PCAPs.

Andrew, thank you so much for coming on the show. This conversation has been a rocket of a ride. I had to get one in. It's all right. And I learned so much. Justin, you're killing me. Where, where can people find you to, to ask more questions or, I mean, I know orbital sidekick.com is the website for the company, but I know you're available or at least somewhat social online.

Andrew, thank you so much for coming on the show. This conversation has been a rocket of a ride. I had to get one in. It's all right. And I learned so much. Justin, you're killing me. Where, where can people find you to, to ask more questions or, I mean, I know orbital sidekick.com is the website for the company, but I know you're available or at least somewhat social online.

Where should people reach out and find you?

Where should people reach out and find you?

So today on the show, we have Anita Zhang from Meta. And Anita, you are a engineer D, manager D is your title. Is that correct? Yep. I think that's fabulous as a Linux user and a long time restarter of services. Tell us about what you're responsible for at Meta.

So today on the show, we have Anita Zhang from Meta. And Anita, you are a engineer D, manager D is your title. Is that correct? Yep. I think that's fabulous as a Linux user and a long time restarter of services. Tell us about what you're responsible for at Meta.

So you're the kernel of Meta's infrastructure?

So you're the kernel of Meta's infrastructure?

One layer above that. So describe the infrastructure, describe the Sforces. I've been following what Facebook and Meta have been doing for a long time as a Red Hat user at other places and seeing the upstream contributions. But I know many people to this podcast may not know what that infrastructure looks like and what you actually do.

One layer above that. So describe the infrastructure, describe the Sforces. I've been following what Facebook and Meta have been doing for a long time as a Red Hat user at other places and seeing the upstream contributions. But I know many people to this podcast may not know what that infrastructure looks like and what you actually do.

I don't know anything off the shelf that's going to do a million hosts.

I don't know anything off the shelf that's going to do a million hosts.

And what does that look like for what you're doing on the fleet level? You're provisioning the OS or have some tooling to provision the OS. And from talks that you've given that I've watched, you had a great talk at scale, by the way. If anyone wants to see that talk, it's on the scale websites. But you're doing upgrades.

And what does that look like for what you're doing on the fleet level? You're provisioning the OS or have some tooling to provision the OS. And from talks that you've given that I've watched, you had a great talk at scale, by the way. If anyone wants to see that talk, it's on the scale websites. But you're doing upgrades.

If I want to upgrade a million hosts, I was like, hey, I need to roll out a new version of the operating system. that's going to take a little while. There's a lot of process and there's a lot of risk there, right? Because like you could be causing other things to fail. So how do you do that in a safe way and at that size?

If I want to upgrade a million hosts, I was like, hey, I need to roll out a new version of the operating system. that's going to take a little while. There's a lot of process and there's a lot of risk there, right? Because like you could be causing other things to fail. So how do you do that in a safe way and at that size?

Describe Fedora ELN. Like why is that different than what you're running?

Describe Fedora ELN. Like why is that different than what you're running?

Basically like the Rawhide equivalent of like, hey, this is a rolling kind of new thing. Yeah. But eventually that gets cut down. How does that relate? Or I'm actually really curious, like CentOS Stream, right? When they moved to this rolling release style of distribution, how did that affect how you're doing those releases and doing upgrades for those hosts?

Basically like the Rawhide equivalent of like, hey, this is a rolling kind of new thing. Yeah. But eventually that gets cut down. How does that relate? Or I'm actually really curious, like CentOS Stream, right? When they moved to this rolling release style of distribution, how did that affect how you're doing those releases and doing upgrades for those hosts?

Because you have to at some point say like, this is the thing we're rolling out, but the OS keeps going.

Because you have to at some point say like, this is the thing we're rolling out, but the OS keeps going.

The repo syncing, I had a project at Animation where we had RHEL that we would sync all the repos internally. It all sits on NFS. And then we mount everything to NFS to pull in repos. And I forget, it was like a Jenkins tree of syncing jobs that would all run to register a system and pull down. It was like 300 or something repos that we would sync every night.

The repo syncing, I had a project at Animation where we had RHEL that we would sync all the repos internally. It all sits on NFS. And then we mount everything to NFS to pull in repos. And I forget, it was like a Jenkins tree of syncing jobs that would all run to register a system and pull down. It was like 300 or something repos that we would sync every night.

And I'm like, OK, let's fetch all the files now. Oh, yeah. And then squirrel those away somewhere on a drive and then host them so that everyone else can can sync to it and then have it roll out to the testing fleet.

And I'm like, OK, let's fetch all the files now. Oh, yeah. And then squirrel those away somewhere on a drive and then host them so that everyone else can can sync to it and then have it roll out to the testing fleet.

It's a lot of data and it's a lot of stuff that just have to, as packages get removed from upstream and you're using them in places, I'm assuming you have some isolation there because as far as I know, most of your workloads are containerized on the Twine, on TW shared as the base infrastructure, right?

It's a lot of data and it's a lot of stuff that just have to, as packages get removed from upstream and you're using them in places, I'm assuming you have some isolation there because as far as I know, most of your workloads are containerized on the Twine, on TW shared as the base infrastructure, right?

Is that an update for the base container layer or whatever they're building on top of?

Is that an update for the base container layer or whatever they're building on top of?

Can you describe TW Shared for the audience as well? Because that's one of the things that I think is really fascinating that you have your own container scheduler. And as far as I know, all those containers are running directly with system D, right? Like you're not having like a shim of like an agent. I mean, you have agents, but go ahead and describe it.

Can you describe TW Shared for the audience as well? Because that's one of the things that I think is really fascinating that you have your own container scheduler. And as far as I know, all those containers are running directly with system D, right? Like you're not having like a shim of like an agent. I mean, you have agents, but go ahead and describe it.

And that's systemd inside the container?

And that's systemd inside the container?

How does that work with the sidecar? I would assume, I've never really actually done this side, like systemd inside the container running on systemd. So if I log into a host, not the container, I see just services all the way down. They just look like standard systemd units. They're just isolated from each other. Is that right?

How does that work with the sidecar? I would assume, I've never really actually done this side, like systemd inside the container running on systemd. So if I log into a host, not the container, I see just services all the way down. They just look like standard systemd units. They're just isolated from each other. Is that right?

And that was the question I actually had. It was like, I assumed that JournalD would handle the unit logging, but you say there's a sidecar that I'm assuming is like getting that logs out to JournalD on the host or at least some way so that you don't lose those logs inside the container.

And that was the question I actually had. It was like, I assumed that JournalD would handle the unit logging, but you say there's a sidecar that I'm assuming is like getting that logs out to JournalD on the host or at least some way so that you don't lose those logs inside the container.

That's cool. At that point, it's just native system D, really. We're just using every feature of system D to isolate and run those jobs. And then you have an overarching scheduler, resource allocator, all that stuff.

That's cool. At that point, it's just native system D, really. We're just using every feature of system D to isolate and run those jobs. And then you have an overarching scheduler, resource allocator, all that stuff.

One of the things that I found super interesting in the white paper was host profiles, where different workloads, you basically virtually allocate clusters, I guess, for lack of better, entitlements is what you call them, for like, hey, this job gets this set of hosts, and then you can dynamically switch those hosts to needing different kernel parameters, file systems, huge pages.

One of the things that I found super interesting in the white paper was host profiles, where different workloads, you basically virtually allocate clusters, I guess, for lack of better, entitlements is what you call them, for like, hey, this job gets this set of hosts, and then you can dynamically switch those hosts to needing different kernel parameters, file systems, huge pages.

And you have a resource allocator that does that, as far as I understood. How does that affect what you're doing? You have a set of host profiles. You say, hey, you can pick from a menu. And then we know how to switch between them. How does that typically work?

And you have a resource allocator that does that, as far as I understood. How does that affect what you're doing? You have a set of host profiles. You say, hey, you can pick from a menu. And then we know how to switch between them. How does that typically work?

And hopefully not physical fires. I mean, these are spaceships and rockets.

And hopefully not physical fires. I mean, these are spaceships and rockets.

How does that affect you as the OS team? Like, is there anything that you're doing specifically for that?

How does that affect you as the OS team? Like, is there anything that you're doing specifically for that?

Yeah, they had them at scale and I was very jealous because they're cool. And this is an audio podcast, so no one knows what we're talking about. But basically, it's a bunch of little small tuxes inside the hood of the hoodie.

Yeah, they had them at scale and I was very jealous because they're cool. And this is an audio podcast, so no one knows what we're talking about. But basically, it's a bunch of little small tuxes inside the hood of the hoodie.

That's something you have to wait for it though, right? Like you're like, we're going to write this internally. We're going to hope this gets upstreamed. And then we have to either wait for the release to consume it, or we're just going to keep running it. But then if upstream needs changes, you have to kind of like merge back to it.

That's something you have to wait for it though, right? Like you're like, we're going to write this internally. We're going to hope this gets upstreamed. And then we have to either wait for the release to consume it, or we're just going to keep running it. But then if upstream needs changes, you have to kind of like merge back to it.

How does release frequently and a million hosts go together? Because you mentioned that it takes about a year to basically roll out an update to every host. But if you're pushing out updates to the OS every month, then you have 12 different stages of things that are going through release. And that makes it really hard to debug and predict, oh, what version are you on?

How does release frequently and a million hosts go together? Because you mentioned that it takes about a year to basically roll out an update to every host. But if you're pushing out updates to the OS every month, then you have 12 different stages of things that are going through release. And that makes it really hard to debug and predict, oh, what version are you on?

Did we fix that bug somewhere else? How do you manage that?

Did we fix that bug somewhere else? How do you manage that?

You mentioned an AI fleet. From what I've heard, Zuckerberg talk about is like, Meta has more GPUs than anyone else in the world, basically. How do you manage that? Not only are how the drivers installed, because Linux and NVIDIA aren't always known to be the best friends, but then how do you isolate those things and roll out those changes?

You mentioned an AI fleet. From what I've heard, Zuckerberg talk about is like, Meta has more GPUs than anyone else in the world, basically. How do you manage that? Not only are how the drivers installed, because Linux and NVIDIA aren't always known to be the best friends, but then how do you isolate those things and roll out those changes?

Under TW Shared, do they just show up as a host profile? Or is that like, do I get an entitlement that says I need GPUs for this type of workload?

Under TW Shared, do they just show up as a host profile? Or is that like, do I get an entitlement that says I need GPUs for this type of workload?

The title.

The title.

Okay, that's interesting. One thing I found fascinating about some of the talks you've given and information is the fact that Meta is still notably an on-prem company. You have your own data centers, you have your own regions, you have machines, and it doesn't seem like you try to hide that from people. You don't try to abstract it away.

Okay, that's interesting. One thing I found fascinating about some of the talks you've given and information is the fact that Meta is still notably an on-prem company. You have your own data centers, you have your own regions, you have machines, and it doesn't seem like you try to hide that from people. You don't try to abstract it away.

At least I haven't ever seen a reference to like, it's our internal cloud. No, it's like it's a pool of machines and people run stuff on the machines. And the...

At least I haven't ever seen a reference to like, it's our internal cloud. No, it's like it's a pool of machines and people run stuff on the machines. And the...

software and the applications running on top of it are very much like a this is this is just like system b unit you're just running it containerized what other types of services do you have internally that people need i mean i saw references to things like sharding for like hey we need just fast disk places and we need some storage and databases externally but like what are the pieces that you find that are like common infrastructure for people to use

software and the applications running on top of it are very much like a this is this is just like system b unit you're just running it containerized what other types of services do you have internally that people need i mean i saw references to things like sharding for like hey we need just fast disk places and we need some storage and databases externally but like what are the pieces that you find that are like common infrastructure for people to use

Right, how those shards, making sure enough of the data replicas are available.

Right, how those shards, making sure enough of the data replicas are available.

Typical DBAs. What would you say are some of the challenges you're facing right now on the OS team or just in general in the infrastructure?

Typical DBAs. What would you say are some of the challenges you're facing right now on the OS team or just in general in the infrastructure?

And you mentioned that as far as moving more things out of something, traditional configuration management like Chef and moving it into more of a host native binary that can manage things, I don't want to say more flexibly, but I guess more predictively. I think you mentioned that where it's just like, yeah.

And you mentioned that as far as moving more things out of something, traditional configuration management like Chef and moving it into more of a host native binary that can manage things, I don't want to say more flexibly, but I guess more predictively. I think you mentioned that where it's just like, yeah.

You also mentioned in the, again, referencing the paper, because I just recently read it. All of your hosts are the same size, right? It's all one CPU socket. And I think it was like 64 gigs of RAM or something like that.

You also mentioned in the, again, referencing the paper, because I just recently read it. All of your hosts are the same size, right? It's all one CPU socket. And I think it was like 64 gigs of RAM or something like that.

Okay. So the majority of TW shared is like, we have one size and you're just like, everyone fit into this one size and we will see how we can make that work. Right. Cause you, you can control the workloads or at least help them optimize in certain ways to say, cause like not all AI jobs or big data jobs are going to fit inside of that envelope.

Okay. So the majority of TW shared is like, we have one size and you're just like, everyone fit into this one size and we will see how we can make that work. Right. Cause you, you can control the workloads or at least help them optimize in certain ways to say, cause like not all AI jobs or big data jobs are going to fit inside of that envelope.

So yeah, it's more of like a, a bin packing approach and saying like, Hey, maybe we do have some large hosts for, especially for, I'm assuming for the jobs that do need like, Hey, I don't fit in 64 gigs of Ram and I don't, you know, local NVMe isn't fast enough for whatever reason, or it's going to cause the job to run longer.

So yeah, it's more of like a, a bin packing approach and saying like, Hey, maybe we do have some large hosts for, especially for, I'm assuming for the jobs that do need like, Hey, I don't fit in 64 gigs of Ram and I don't, you know, local NVMe isn't fast enough for whatever reason, or it's going to cause the job to run longer.

Yeah, I suppose once you have any sort of specialized compute or interface, whether that's network, some fabric adapters, you always have snowflakes in some way. It was like, hey, this is different than the general compute stuff.

Yeah, I suppose once you have any sort of specialized compute or interface, whether that's network, some fabric adapters, you always have snowflakes in some way. It was like, hey, this is different than the general compute stuff.

How has that affected your global optimization around things? So I know, again, the paper was old now. It's like 2020, I think, is when it was published, which is probably looking at 2019, 2018 data. But in general, it was something like 18% overall total cost optimization because of moving to single size hosts, because you're just like, hey, our power draw was less overall globally.

How has that affected your global optimization around things? So I know, again, the paper was old now. It's like 2020, I think, is when it was published, which is probably looking at 2019, 2018 data. But in general, it was something like 18% overall total cost optimization because of moving to single size hosts, because you're just like, hey, our power draw was less overall globally.

And something like, I think it was the web tier was like 11%. I should have had it up in front of me. 11% more performance by switching to host profiles and allowing them to customize the host. Have you had things like that over the past four years with these either optimizations in specialized computes that have allowed you to even gain more global optimization?

And something like, I think it was the web tier was like 11%. I should have had it up in front of me. 11% more performance by switching to host profiles and allowing them to customize the host. Have you had things like that over the past four years with these either optimizations in specialized computes that have allowed you to even gain more global optimization?

Because a million hosts, like a 10% gain in efficiency or lower power requirements is huge. That's like megawatts of savings.

Because a million hosts, like a 10% gain in efficiency or lower power requirements is huge. That's like megawatts of savings.

That's fascinating.

That's fascinating.

Have you been enabling that through like FPGAs that you allow people to program inside the fleet? Or how does that like, how do you come out of like, hey, we have an ASIC now and it does some specialized computing task for us?

Have you been enabling that through like FPGAs that you allow people to program inside the fleet? Or how does that like, how do you come out of like, hey, we have an ASIC now and it does some specialized computing task for us?

And at some point they have like, here's a chip, go install it for us. And you need, here's a driver for it, right? Like they need to give that to you as a host team.

And at some point they have like, here's a chip, go install it for us. And you need, here's a driver for it, right? Like they need to give that to you as a host team.

Yeah, I really want to see an org chart now. I was like, there's so many of these teams that just keep popping up of like, oh yeah, no, we have a team that does that.

Yeah, I really want to see an org chart now. I was like, there's so many of these teams that just keep popping up of like, oh yeah, no, we have a team that does that.

And you've been there for a little while now, right?

And you've been there for a little while now, right?

What are you looking forward to working on in the next year? Are there big projects or big initiatives that you would like to tackle or even things in the open source or like things that you want to give back and make sure other people know about?

What are you looking forward to working on in the next year? Are there big projects or big initiatives that you would like to tackle or even things in the open source or like things that you want to give back and make sure other people know about?

That was one of my best claims of fame at Disney+, was I disabled rsyslog. I was like, no, we don't have it. It was just journald. I was like, we're just doing journald now. And it saved us so much just like I-O throughput on the disks and everything. And there was a lot of problems with it, too. Maybe we weren't ready to do that. But I was like, no, we can't ship Disney+, until rsyslog's off.

That was one of my best claims of fame at Disney+, was I disabled rsyslog. I was like, no, we don't have it. It was just journald. I was like, we're just doing journald now. And it saved us so much just like I-O throughput on the disks and everything. And there was a lot of problems with it, too. Maybe we weren't ready to do that. But I was like, no, we can't ship Disney+, until rsyslog's off.

It was great. It was a great feeling one day where I'm like, I don't need this anymore. I don't need our syslog.

It was great. It was a great feeling one day where I'm like, I don't need this anymore. I don't need our syslog.

Is that for resizing the like container, like the C group and saying like you, how much memory they have available or is that something different?

Is that for resizing the like container, like the C group and saying like you, how much memory they have available or is that something different?

Interesting. It's a little like, get back in line. You don't get that memory.

Interesting. It's a little like, get back in line. You don't get that memory.

Have you been doing anything with immutable file systems or read-only, or AB switching hosts? Fedora has Silverblue. I use a distro called Bluefin, which is built on top of that, which does AB switching for upgrades to do reboots every time. It sounds like you're doing rolling updates, so you would still be writing packages to disk instead of flipping between partitions.

Have you been doing anything with immutable file systems or read-only, or AB switching hosts? Fedora has Silverblue. I use a distro called Bluefin, which is built on top of that, which does AB switching for upgrades to do reboots every time. It sounds like you're doing rolling updates, so you would still be writing packages to disk instead of flipping between partitions.

And I was asking that because leading into you saying you want more systemd stuff, and I'm curious if you're trying to use things like systemd system extensions or sysx or whatever it's called that are like layering different things on top of systemd, which is typically for an immutable file system, but still allow changes to happen.

And I was asking that because leading into you saying you want more systemd stuff, and I'm curious if you're trying to use things like systemd system extensions or sysx or whatever it's called that are like layering different things on top of systemd, which is typically for an immutable file system, but still allow changes to happen.

I'm just thinking of Nvidia drivers now. And I'm like, oh, like that's the worst, like trying to like on a Linux embedded system. Well, how are you?

I'm just thinking of Nvidia drivers now. And I'm like, oh, like that's the worst, like trying to like on a Linux embedded system. Well, how are you?

Yeah. It's one of those things that looks really interesting, especially if you try to move more into immutable file system layers. Like, hey, I still need to configure this. And how do I do that in a composable, immutable way?

Yeah. It's one of those things that looks really interesting, especially if you try to move more into immutable file system layers. Like, hey, I still need to configure this. And how do I do that in a composable, immutable way?

Well, Anita, this has been great. I'm just nerding out because I'm trying to learn all of the things that I've done in the past and still doing in the future.

Well, Anita, this has been great. I'm just nerding out because I'm trying to learn all of the things that I've done in the past and still doing in the future.

I think it's great that Meta is not only doing this at just a core level of just like, hey, we just have SystemD and things running in that, but also giving back upstream with the SystemD builds and all the stuff that you've been publishing, not only white papers, which Autumn and I were reading, and talks, but also just the open source work. So I think that's fascinating.

I think it's great that Meta is not only doing this at just a core level of just like, hey, we just have SystemD and things running in that, but also giving back upstream with the SystemD builds and all the stuff that you've been publishing, not only white papers, which Autumn and I were reading, and talks, but also just the open source work. So I think that's fascinating.

because that's a whole other topic.

because that's a whole other topic.

I find it fascinating because Meta is one of the few places that doesn't sell the things that they talk deeply technically about, where it's like a lot of Amazon and Google and Microsoft are like, hey, we built this amazing thing. Now go buy it from us. And at Meta, it's like, no, we're solving our own problem and we're just giving it back to you.

I find it fascinating because Meta is one of the few places that doesn't sell the things that they talk deeply technically about, where it's like a lot of Amazon and Google and Microsoft are like, hey, we built this amazing thing. Now go buy it from us. And at Meta, it's like, no, we're solving our own problem and we're just giving it back to you.

Yeah. Yeah. I've been running Llama. I haven't done Llama 3 yet though, but it's on my list of things to play with. Awesome.

Yeah. Yeah. I've been running Llama. I haven't done Llama 3 yet though, but it's on my list of things to play with. Awesome.

Anita, thank you so much. And we'll reach out, I'm sure, in the future with more things, maybe in the future, talk about eBPFs and ASICs and more work that you're doing on the OS layer, because that's just a fun thing and seeing how it grows.

Anita, thank you so much. And we'll reach out, I'm sure, in the future with more things, maybe in the future, talk about eBPFs and ASICs and more work that you're doing on the OS layer, because that's just a fun thing and seeing how it grows.

Thank you so much, Gina Hoiska, for joining us on the show today. And can you tell us about yourself and how you got started with creating Octoprint?

Thank you so much, Gina Hoiska, for joining us on the show today. And can you tell us about yourself and how you got started with creating Octoprint?

That's awesome.

That's awesome.

That's one of those success stories of open source and crowdfunding, right? Because that's not a common thing for it's like, oh, one person started a project and now you can actually make your living off of this hobby or originally hobby sort of thing. And that's really awesome just to hear that it's the community around it has come together to be able to support such a cool project.

That's one of those success stories of open source and crowdfunding, right? Because that's not a common thing for it's like, oh, one person started a project and now you can actually make your living off of this hobby or originally hobby sort of thing. And that's really awesome just to hear that it's the community around it has come together to be able to support such a cool project.

What printer was even available 2012? That's like the CNC cupcake machine.

What printer was even available 2012? That's like the CNC cupcake machine.

Yeah, no one even knew what to do there.

Yeah, no one even knew what to do there.

So in 10 years of Octoprint, how many printers do you support? It seems like it grows every time I check it out.

So in 10 years of Octoprint, how many printers do you support? It seems like it grows every time I check it out.

Yeah, I switched off from an Ender Pro to a Bamboo, and the Bamboo is pretty much self-contained. Closed source. Yeah, closed source. And it was like... I had such a hard time because I had so many printers in the past that I always wanted them to be open source and I wanted them to work certain ways. And I always spent more time fiddling with them than using them and printing.

Yeah, I switched off from an Ender Pro to a Bamboo, and the Bamboo is pretty much self-contained. Closed source. Yeah, closed source. And it was like... I had such a hard time because I had so many printers in the past that I always wanted them to be open source and I wanted them to work certain ways. And I always spent more time fiddling with them than using them and printing.

And so I saw recommendations for the bamboo and I'm like, I'm going to try it. I'm going to go with this one. I know it's closed source. They have a whole ecosystem of stuff. And I think the problem is going to be when, when things break and I can't fix a problem or I can't troubleshoot and find, you know, Find a community around like, hey, how does this work?

And so I saw recommendations for the bamboo and I'm like, I'm going to try it. I'm going to go with this one. I know it's closed source. They have a whole ecosystem of stuff. And I think the problem is going to be when, when things break and I can't fix a problem or I can't troubleshoot and find, you know, Find a community around like, hey, how does this work?

It's all just going to be like, oh, well, here's a janky fix we have that shows you how to do something.

It's all just going to be like, oh, well, here's a janky fix we have that shows you how to do something.

Really?

Really?

License changes.

License changes.

Now back to Octoprint for a bit. I saw you had a release last week. What does that release process look like? Because you have this huge system that supports all of these printers and you have these plugins and all of these features. How do you actually go about releasing and testing that to say like this is a new release of OctoPrint?

Now back to Octoprint for a bit. I saw you had a release last week. What does that release process look like? Because you have this huge system that supports all of these printers and you have these plugins and all of these features. How do you actually go about releasing and testing that to say like this is a new release of OctoPrint?

Yeah. Long-term support has a different meaning when it's flying around the world. Yeah.

Yeah. Long-term support has a different meaning when it's flying around the world. Yeah.

Well, that's what I've been doing. No, this sounds fascinating. I didn't even know you could have an SD card on one end. It's connected to the USB on the other side, and you can switch it back and forth.

Well, that's what I've been doing. No, this sounds fascinating. I didn't even know you could have an SD card on one end. It's connected to the USB on the other side, and you can switch it back and forth.

Does it have pictures?

Does it have pictures?

I need to find that so we can add it.

I need to find that so we can add it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

How many core maintainers are on OctoPrint? Is it just you? It's just me. What software were you writing before OctoPrint?

How many core maintainers are on OctoPrint? Is it just you? It's just me. What software were you writing before OctoPrint?

There you go. So you went Java to Python, basically.

There you go. So you went Java to Python, basically.

And you said you've been crowdfunded for eight years now. Yeah.

And you said you've been crowdfunded for eight years now. Yeah.

I do find it interesting that the commercialized spin wasn't even an option for you there. You could have tried to raise money and say, this is going to be a product. I'm going to make a new business out of it. And you have this open core model, paid plugins, whatever you want to do. So many companies do that.

I do find it interesting that the commercialized spin wasn't even an option for you there. You could have tried to raise money and say, this is going to be a product. I'm going to make a new business out of it. And you have this open core model, paid plugins, whatever you want to do. So many companies do that.

And that's how they get started because it was a side project or it was something they're interested in. And for you, it was like, I either abandon it or I do it all community. And that's awesome.

And that's how they get started because it was a side project or it was something they're interested in. And for you, it was like, I either abandon it or I do it all community. And that's awesome.

Now, I don't know if you can go into details, but where does your funding come from? Is that from like recurring businesses that say, hey, we want to pay for you to... No, that's mostly users.

Now, I don't know if you can go into details, but where does your funding come from? Is that from like recurring businesses that say, hey, we want to pay for you to... No, that's mostly users.

Do you know how many installs you have, or roughly how many?

Do you know how many installs you have, or roughly how many?

First of all, that's really cool when I think about like 30 people, three satellites, right? Like 10 people per satellite in space, you're going to have a couple more. And like, that's like the opposite scaling of what I think of for like running systems where it's like one sysadmin can do a hundred machines. It's like, but like a spaceship, like it's literally a satellite.

First of all, that's really cool when I think about like 30 people, three satellites, right? Like 10 people per satellite in space, you're going to have a couple more. And like, that's like the opposite scaling of what I think of for like running systems where it's like one sysadmin can do a hundred machines. It's like, but like a spaceship, like it's literally a satellite.

Yeah, I was gonna say 150,000 opted in. Yeah, that is that is usually a very small percentage of people that are like, yes, I will let you get this information. That's awesome.

Yeah, I was gonna say 150,000 opted in. Yeah, that is that is usually a very small percentage of people that are like, yes, I will let you get this information. That's awesome.

Right. Well, yeah. So if you estimate 10 times more, that's 1.5 million. I could see that. That's totally not even out of realm.

Right. Well, yeah. So if you estimate 10 times more, that's 1.5 million. I could see that. That's totally not even out of realm.

It takes so much time and process. What does that actually look like for you of... We're going to make another, you know, satellites. It's going to go out next year. Like how, what is that lead time for like your, what you're writing today? What, what decisions you're making about around libraries and code? And then like, how do you get feedback for that?

It takes so much time and process. What does that actually look like for you of... We're going to make another, you know, satellites. It's going to go out next year. Like how, what is that lead time for like your, what you're writing today? What, what decisions you're making about around libraries and code? And then like, how do you get feedback for that?

Enterprise Java helping people? I don't know. Sorry, Autumn, no shade.

Enterprise Java helping people? I don't know. Sorry, Autumn, no shade.

A lot of stuff does. When you mix those two words of enterprise and Java, I don't have any good memories.

A lot of stuff does. When you mix those two words of enterprise and Java, I don't have any good memories.

Well, that's just because your variable names aren't sentence long, right?

Well, that's just because your variable names aren't sentence long, right?

So where do you want to bring Octoprint from here? Like, what's the next thing that you would like to do? What is the next sort of like big, like, it's not just, you know, more printers are fine. I mean, I still think that you have influenced that standard of communication by having this early project so long that was be able to, you know, talk to all these printers. You have this plugin system.

So where do you want to bring Octoprint from here? Like, what's the next thing that you would like to do? What is the next sort of like big, like, it's not just, you know, more printers are fine. I mean, I still think that you have influenced that standard of communication by having this early project so long that was be able to, you know, talk to all these printers. You have this plugin system.

What's the next thing you want to do? What's the next cool thing that you're like, I would love if Octoprint could do this.

What's the next thing you want to do? What's the next cool thing that you're like, I would love if Octoprint could do this.

How do you make sure that like that thing that you think is going to be accurate next year gives you any kind of feedback loop?

How do you make sure that like that thing that you think is going to be accurate next year gives you any kind of feedback loop?

Only after it breaks.

Only after it breaks.

Yeah, they need to.

Yeah, they need to.

You talked about some things you'd want to make changes in the future. Looking back of more than 10 years of building this project, what do you wish you would have done differently?

You talked about some things you'd want to make changes in the future. Looking back of more than 10 years of building this project, what do you wish you would have done differently?

How do you... Because a lot of that comes from just learning, either scaling the projects and needs to change over time, or you didn't know how it worked back then and you just learned a new way of doing it now. How would you go back in time and teach yourself, oh, you should do it this way instead? Is there a way?

How do you... Because a lot of that comes from just learning, either scaling the projects and needs to change over time, or you didn't know how it worked back then and you just learned a new way of doing it now. How would you go back in time and teach yourself, oh, you should do it this way instead? Is there a way?

The curse of knowledge.

The curse of knowledge.

Yeah. That, that is the real wisdom of this podcast right now is like, people say like, don't push on Friday. And you're like, no, no, don't push after Wednesday. Like if you're, if you're pushing on Thursday or Friday, you're just asking for it.

Yeah. That, that is the real wisdom of this podcast right now is like, people say like, don't push on Friday. And you're like, no, no, don't push after Wednesday. Like if you're, if you're pushing on Thursday or Friday, you're just asking for it.

Someone else to try and then call you. And that is like, they need a day.

Someone else to try and then call you. And that is like, they need a day.

It's like test with users.

It's like test with users.

Or they have like some crazy workflow where you're just like, what? Like, would you do what? Like, oh yeah, no, I drop to the web console every time and I type my commands manually in JavaScript. You're like,

Or they have like some crazy workflow where you're just like, what? Like, would you do what? Like, oh yeah, no, I drop to the web console every time and I type my commands manually in JavaScript. You're like,

It's only the weird use cases.

It's only the weird use cases.

Well, not always, right? I mean, you can spend the whole week automating something that you do once a year. And in this case, you're like, oh no, this, this taste went from a day to an hour is a good use of automation. Yeah.

Well, not always, right? I mean, you can spend the whole week automating something that you do once a year. And in this case, you're like, oh no, this, this taste went from a day to an hour is a good use of automation. Yeah.

This has been a fantastic conversation and thank you so much for coming and sharing all about OctoPrint and what you do for anyone that's listening. If you're not familiar, if you have a 3d printer, go check it out, run it on a Raspberry Pi three, donate to the project. Cause this is one of those successful open source projects that has been around for a while. I'm, I was a user for a long time.

This has been a fantastic conversation and thank you so much for coming and sharing all about OctoPrint and what you do for anyone that's listening. If you're not familiar, if you have a 3d printer, go check it out, run it on a Raspberry Pi three, donate to the project. Cause this is one of those successful open source projects that has been around for a while. I'm, I was a user for a long time.

I am also a donator. So I, you know, Encourage everyone else to go out there. And it's great having an integrated GitHub sponsorships and all those things that you have for the project make it really easy. Just say like, oh yeah, here's $10, here's a recurring buck or two.

I am also a donator. So I, you know, Encourage everyone else to go out there. And it's great having an integrated GitHub sponsorships and all those things that you have for the project make it really easy. Just say like, oh yeah, here's $10, here's a recurring buck or two.

All those things go a long way to help promote the work and really promote the idea behind successful open source that can be community run and community funded is an awesome success story.

All those things go a long way to help promote the work and really promote the idea behind successful open source that can be community run and community funded is an awesome success story.

possible. Thank you so much, Gina.

possible. Thank you so much, Gina.

The attack surface is a little different than what a typical server might have.

The attack surface is a little different than what a typical server might have.

Fundamentally, a customer comes to you and says, I need you to look at something on the ground. You're not running customer code in space, right? They're giving you a job to say, like, coordinates, please send me this data, right?

Fundamentally, a customer comes to you and says, I need you to look at something on the ground. You're not running customer code in space, right? They're giving you a job to say, like, coordinates, please send me this data, right?

It had good properties, but it was not good for somebody who watched the original.

It had good properties, but it was not good for somebody who watched the original.

I love it. Okay, so they mean it when they say code breaks. Fix it faster with Sentry. More than 100,000 growing teams use Sentry to find problems fast, and you can too. Learn more at Sentry.io. That's S-E-N-T-R-Y.io. And use our code CHANGELOG. Get $100 off the team plan. That's almost four months free for you to try out Sentry. Once again, Sentry.io.

I love it. Okay, so they mean it when they say code breaks. Fix it faster with Sentry. More than 100,000 growing teams use Sentry to find problems fast, and you can too. Learn more at Sentry.io. That's S-E-N-T-R-Y.io. And use our code CHANGELOG. Get $100 off the team plan. That's almost four months free for you to try out Sentry. Once again, Sentry.io.

Yes, in my opinion, it was good. I'll answer that easily. I think the cinematography was phenomenal. The soundtrack was phenomenal. I think the acting was continuous from where it began to where it ended up. There was a lot of throwbacks and cuts between that connected. So they did a pretty good job, in my opinion. It was a solid movie. We'll count it. We'll say we thought of one. Oh, Dune.

Yes, in my opinion, it was good. I'll answer that easily. I think the cinematography was phenomenal. The soundtrack was phenomenal. I think the acting was continuous from where it began to where it ended up. There was a lot of throwbacks and cuts between that connected. So they did a pretty good job, in my opinion. It was a solid movie. We'll count it. We'll say we thought of one. Oh, Dune.

Oh, yeah. Dune is good.

Oh, yeah. Dune is good.

That one was kind of easy, though, honestly, don't you think? Kind of easy. We didn't say. I mean, it was so bad. It was so bad. It was so, like, cheeky bad. A lot of people like it, though, don't they? But I will agree. It definitely is a good. And the sequel. Mad Max Fury Road. Now we're on a roll here.

That one was kind of easy, though, honestly, don't you think? Kind of easy. We didn't say. I mean, it was so bad. It was so bad. It was so, like, cheeky bad. A lot of people like it, though, don't they? But I will agree. It definitely is a good. And the sequel. Mad Max Fury Road. Now we're on a roll here.

Oh, just that a part two was good. And you know, I think part two is actually potentially better than part one.

Oh, just that a part two was good. And you know, I think part two is actually potentially better than part one.

You know, there was a lot of good stuff in there. Part two of the same, of the new movie. Right, of the reboot. Part one was a lot of character development and buildup and backstory. I never saw the second half.

You know, there was a lot of good stuff in there. Part two of the same, of the new movie. Right, of the reboot. Part one was a lot of character development and buildup and backstory. I never saw the second half.

I did not read the books. I'm sorry. You're not proper nerds. No. I want to read the books. There's just so many of them. It's a lot. It's too much. I want to be the kind of person that read the books. I believe that Brett Cannon said.

I did not read the books. I'm sorry. You're not proper nerds. No. I want to read the books. There's just so many of them. It's a lot. It's too much. I want to be the kind of person that read the books. I believe that Brett Cannon said.

So I guess one thing for you, Jared, is the director of Dune Part 1 and 2 is also the director of Blade Runner 2049.

So I guess one thing for you, Jared, is the director of Dune Part 1 and 2 is also the director of Blade Runner 2049.

Oh, Arrival's good. Enemy, which stands out to my brain, but I'm not sure why.

Oh, Arrival's good. Enemy, which stands out to my brain, but I'm not sure why.

100%.

100%.

I'm not sure I would meet somebody to get it. You wouldn't use your money? No, I mean, I would buy it. I would, I would buy it from like eBay or something like that. I'm not sure if I would like meet locally to, to get it.

I'm not sure I would meet somebody to get it. You wouldn't use your money? No, I mean, I would buy it. I would, I would buy it from like eBay or something like that. I'm not sure if I would like meet locally to, to get it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I am with you on the Put Em In Plex part. You know, I feel like if it's not full res on Plex, it's not a movie. How about 480i for two bucks? You can go for that.

I am with you on the Put Em In Plex part. You know, I feel like if it's not full res on Plex, it's not a movie. How about 480i for two bucks? You can go for that.

If that's all it has. Yeah. If that's like the max resolution available, then sure.

If that's all it has. Yeah. If that's like the max resolution available, then sure.

Yeah, sorry.

Yeah, sorry.

Jared and I grew up in the era when you would watch, what was the movie? Give me a second.

Jared and I grew up in the era when you would watch, what was the movie? Give me a second.

I do not strap. We grew up in the era when you could watch Boys in the Hood, 1991. When you could watch it? Yeah, you could still watch it today, but we grew up when it came out. Oh, yeah. Right? It was 91. 91. Heck yeah. And so I learned strap probably from that movie there. I was wondering where he was going with that.

I do not strap. We grew up in the era when you could watch Boys in the Hood, 1991. When you could watch it? Yeah, you could still watch it today, but we grew up when it came out. Oh, yeah. Right? It was 91. 91. Heck yeah. And so I learned strap probably from that movie there. I was wondering where he was going with that.

Right. Yeah, that would be nice. Time travel. I would definitely time travel to do that kind of stuff.

Right. Yeah, that would be nice. Time travel. I would definitely time travel to do that kind of stuff.

pod here yeah I mean eventually we have to rename it but I want to I do want to throw one more thing in there just to close a loop I love it close it for us okay close the loop on 1995 I'm gonna just name some movies because these are the ones yeah okay okay Toy Story yeah the original Braveheart yeah amazing seven yeah wow The Usual Suspects yeah Apollo 13 nice Casino yes Heat Jumanji Okay.

pod here yeah I mean eventually we have to rename it but I want to I do want to throw one more thing in there just to close a loop I love it close it for us okay close the loop on 1995 I'm gonna just name some movies because these are the ones yeah okay okay Toy Story yeah the original Braveheart yeah amazing seven yeah wow The Usual Suspects yeah Apollo 13 nice Casino yes Heat Jumanji Okay.

Die Hard with a Vengeance. And Goldeneye. Vengeance was all right. Goldeneye was pretty good.

Die Hard with a Vengeance. And Goldeneye. Vengeance was all right. Goldeneye was pretty good.

Oh, what? Jurassic Park? Assuming no hallucination, that's accurate. Who's hallucinating?

Oh, what? Jurassic Park? Assuming no hallucination, that's accurate. Who's hallucinating?

You were thinking of The Lost World then because in 1995 The Lost World comes out, I think as a book though. Yeah. And you read books, so.

You were thinking of The Lost World then because in 1995 The Lost World comes out, I think as a book though. Yeah. And you read books, so.

I don't read books. I'm just saying. I read a lot of my fiction just, you know, not by reading it.

I don't read books. I'm just saying. I read a lot of my fiction just, you know, not by reading it.

Right. Well, he did write Twister the year after 1995. Now we're stretching. Just to close one more loop.

Right. Well, he did write Twister the year after 1995. Now we're stretching. Just to close one more loop.

Apparently it did.

Apparently it did.

Okay, friends, I'm here in the breaks with Annie Sexton over at Fly. Annie, you know we use Fly here at ChangeLog. We love Fly. It is such an awesome platform and we love building on it. But for those who don't know much about Fly, what's special about building on Fly?

Okay, friends, I'm here in the breaks with Annie Sexton over at Fly. Annie, you know we use Fly here at ChangeLog. We love Fly. It is such an awesome platform and we love building on it. But for those who don't know much about Fly, what's special about building on Fly?

So we use Tigress here at Changelog. Are they built on top of Fly? Is this one of those examples of being able to build on Fly?

So we use Tigress here at Changelog. Are they built on top of Fly? Is this one of those examples of being able to build on Fly?

very cool thanks annie so fly has everything you need over 3 million applications including ours here at changelog multiple applications have launched on fly boosted by global anycast load balancing zero configuration private networking hardware isolation instant wireguard vpn connections push button deployments that scale to thousands of instances it's all there for you right now

very cool thanks annie so fly has everything you need over 3 million applications including ours here at changelog multiple applications have launched on fly boosted by global anycast load balancing zero configuration private networking hardware isolation instant wireguard vpn connections push button deployments that scale to thousands of instances it's all there for you right now

Deploy your app in five minutes. Go to fly.io. Again, fly.io. And by our friends over at Paragon, useparagon.com. Check them out. Ship every SaaS integration your users need. With more than 100 plus pre-built connectors, you can add dozens of integrations to your app quickly and reliably. with their embedded iPaaS for developers. And I'm here with co-founder and CEO, Brandon Fu.

Deploy your app in five minutes. Go to fly.io. Again, fly.io. And by our friends over at Paragon, useparagon.com. Check them out. Ship every SaaS integration your users need. With more than 100 plus pre-built connectors, you can add dozens of integrations to your app quickly and reliably. with their embedded iPaaS for developers. And I'm here with co-founder and CEO, Brandon Fu.

So Brandon, talk to me about the friction developers feel with integrations, SSO, dealing with rate limits, retries, auth, all the things.

So Brandon, talk to me about the friction developers feel with integrations, SSO, dealing with rate limits, retries, auth, all the things.

Okay. Paragon is built for product management. It's built for engineering. It's built for everybody. Ship hundreds of native integrations into your SaaS application in days. Or build your own custom connector with any API. Learn more at useparagon.com slash changelog. Again, useparagon.com slash changelog. That's U-S-E-P-A-R-A-G-O-N dot com slash changelog.

Okay. Paragon is built for product management. It's built for engineering. It's built for everybody. Ship hundreds of native integrations into your SaaS application in days. Or build your own custom connector with any API. Learn more at useparagon.com slash changelog. Again, useparagon.com slash changelog. That's U-S-E-P-A-R-A-G-O-N dot com slash changelog.

Like, oh, we're actually friends now. Okay. It's a different style of communication on the same device. It's like a DM in Twitter or X is still an app on your phone.

Like, oh, we're actually friends now. Okay. It's a different style of communication on the same device. It's like a DM in Twitter or X is still an app on your phone.

You always have to ask yourself, can I keep doing this? Whenever you're really in any position where you feel like strain, I suppose. I think so. Definitely during the pandemic. You know, there was a lot of pressure on a lot of sides of our lives. So I would say during the pandemic for sure. You know, can I keep going at this clip? Can I keep, is this what I'm doing today sustainable?

You always have to ask yourself, can I keep doing this? Whenever you're really in any position where you feel like strain, I suppose. I think so. Definitely during the pandemic. You know, there was a lot of pressure on a lot of sides of our lives. So I would say during the pandemic for sure. You know, can I keep going at this clip? Can I keep, is this what I'm doing today sustainable?

Or Slack, yeah. And then suddenly it's like literally in messages if you're an iPhone user, like I am. Like this is where my mom texts me. This is something real.

Or Slack, yeah. And then suddenly it's like literally in messages if you're an iPhone user, like I am. Like this is where my mom texts me. This is something real.

And if it isn't, how long do I need to keep doing it to get to the next lily pad?

And if it isn't, how long do I need to keep doing it to get to the next lily pad?

Yeah. I mean, I think that's kind of what life is, right? No matter what, you're just like looking for that next lily pad. That's my analogy at least, right? Like you want to be a frog above water. Sure. If you go underwater, you got crocs under there. You got things under there that can get you. Yeah, that's going pretty well.

Yeah. I mean, I think that's kind of what life is, right? No matter what, you're just like looking for that next lily pad. That's my analogy at least, right? Like you want to be a frog above water. Sure. If you go underwater, you got crocs under there. You got things under there that can get you. Yeah, that's going pretty well.

Yeah, I think that's spot on to try to do your best to maintain equilibrium until the next lily pad appears. Sure. Because it could be, you know, too far of a leap and you can land in the water.

Yeah, I think that's spot on to try to do your best to maintain equilibrium until the next lily pad appears. Sure. Because it could be, you know, too far of a leap and you can land in the water.

sure laundromats what was your other one laundromats storage businesses they say those just are less likely to fail they're recession proof things like that yeah they're more like investments than they are like yeah same thing with like you can translate storage units to like mailbox storage people don't want to change their address there's stress and change they don't change

sure laundromats what was your other one laundromats storage businesses they say those just are less likely to fail they're recession proof things like that yeah they're more like investments than they are like yeah same thing with like you can translate storage units to like mailbox storage people don't want to change their address there's stress and change they don't change

They hold off for at least one more year, and that might happen two years or three years. And by then, you've got enough recurring on that person that you're, as a business owner, you're kind of protected or insulated a little bit. There's lots of studies on those boring businesses. Laundromats is something that a lot of towns need. You don't know it until you know it, really.

They hold off for at least one more year, and that might happen two years or three years. And by then, you've got enough recurring on that person that you're, as a business owner, you're kind of protected or insulated a little bit. There's lots of studies on those boring businesses. Laundromats is something that a lot of towns need. You don't know it until you know it, really.

I mean, you've got a lot of people who are in between things and just need a place to wash their stuff. It's like, hey, I need to go to a laundromat and, you know, a high quality one could do a good job.

I mean, you've got a lot of people who are in between things and just need a place to wash their stuff. It's like, hey, I need to go to a laundromat and, you know, a high quality one could do a good job.

What's up, friends? I'm here with Kyle Carberry, CTO at Coder.com. So, Kyle, I've known Coder as the IDE in the cloud, and over time, you've iterated to become a fully open source cloud development environment, a CDE. How do you explain what Coder is and what it does?

What's up, friends? I'm here with Kyle Carberry, CTO at Coder.com. So, Kyle, I've known Coder as the IDE in the cloud, and over time, you've iterated to become a fully open source cloud development environment, a CDE. How do you explain what Coder is and what it does?

Okay, so what are teams coming to you for? Who's coming to you?

Okay, so what are teams coming to you for? Who's coming to you?

Let's laser focus in on the platform engineer. It is that team's job to provide the best infrastructure, the best platform for their given applications, for their teams. What are some signs or signals for platform engineers to think about when it might be time to consider a cloud development environment like Coder.com?

Let's laser focus in on the platform engineer. It is that team's job to provide the best infrastructure, the best platform for their given applications, for their teams. What are some signs or signals for platform engineers to think about when it might be time to consider a cloud development environment like Coder.com?

Well, it might be time to consider a cloud development environment. And open source is awesome. And Coder is fully open source. You can go to Coder.com, get a demo or try it right now or even start a 30-day trial of Coder Enterprise. Once again, Coder.com. That's C-O-D-E-R.com. Coder.com. I'm curious, though.

Well, it might be time to consider a cloud development environment. And open source is awesome. And Coder is fully open source. You can go to Coder.com, get a demo or try it right now or even start a 30-day trial of Coder Enterprise. Once again, Coder.com. That's C-O-D-E-R.com. Coder.com. I'm curious, though.

This idea of influencers on tap, I'm just on your homepage, so I'm just leveraging your headline.

This idea of influencers on tap, I'm just on your homepage, so I'm just leveraging your headline.

What was appealing about that to go from the, as you said, the big cloud jobs, this identity even to be like, wow, I can. Yeah. And then I can too.

What was appealing about that to go from the, as you said, the big cloud jobs, this identity even to be like, wow, I can. Yeah. And then I can too.

Like the idea is good and I'm capable.

Like the idea is good and I'm capable.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah. A 403 number, I believe. Is that what it was? 407.

Yeah. A 403 number, I believe. Is that what it was? 407.

Is that the Florida as well?

Is that the Florida as well?

It's Orlando.

It's Orlando.

In Orlando.

In Orlando.

All over the place. By the airport, by Universal. I think it was called Westlake or Westgate. Maybe Westgate. Does that ring a bell? West something. Near Full Sail for a little bit too. Yeah. So all over.

All over the place. By the airport, by Universal. I think it was called Westlake or Westgate. Maybe Westgate. Does that ring a bell? West something. Near Full Sail for a little bit too. Yeah. So all over.

Didn't the conference do that, though, where they generated some people? Yeah. Like, last year, wasn't it? What was that conference? They generated women speakers, right? It was women speakers, but it was the same idea, but it was, in that case, trying to slight the gender skew, so to speak. Yeah. But it was still the same premise.

Didn't the conference do that, though, where they generated some people? Yeah. Like, last year, wasn't it? What was that conference? They generated women speakers, right? It was women speakers, but it was the same idea, but it was, in that case, trying to slight the gender skew, so to speak. Yeah. But it was still the same premise.

Like, let me generate somebody to seem credible so that we seem credible.

Like, let me generate somebody to seem credible so that we seem credible.

Right. And they almost got away with it.

Right. And they almost got away with it.

That's cool. I think we need more of this, honestly. I think that it is a challenge for brands. I feel bad for some of the brands out there. They want to have the ability. They don't know how to do it internally. Maybe they don't even have the resources to staff up or employ that person or persons.

That's cool. I think we need more of this, honestly. I think that it is a challenge for brands. I feel bad for some of the brands out there. They want to have the ability. They don't know how to do it internally. Maybe they don't even have the resources to staff up or employ that person or persons.

And sometimes you need somebody inside the company that can think holistically and say, well, this exists, but I've got to put the work in. I've got to go out and interview all these different places. I've got to ask them for proposals. I've got to essentially learn as much as I can about every potential channel or content source.

And sometimes you need somebody inside the company that can think holistically and say, well, this exists, but I've got to put the work in. I've got to go out and interview all these different places. I've got to ask them for proposals. I've got to essentially learn as much as I can about every potential channel or content source.

I hate to label people as these just widgets kind of thing, but that's the truth. We're in that regard as well. We get reached out to from folks. And for us, it's really about... Can we help them? And what is their, who are they trying to reach? Do we actually talk to the people they're trying to reach? Is their message clear? Are they in a mature state where that we can even apply help?

I hate to label people as these just widgets kind of thing, but that's the truth. We're in that regard as well. We get reached out to from folks. And for us, it's really about... Can we help them? And what is their, who are they trying to reach? Do we actually talk to the people they're trying to reach? Is their message clear? Are they in a mature state where that we can even apply help?

They need help, but maybe they need to change in order for our help to be. Yes.

They need help, but maybe they need to change in order for our help to be. Yes.

adequate you know like we can only give you attention we can't give you the guarantee like just one thing i can't guarantee this article goes somewhere you still have to do the work being you the brand your landing page your marketing your product who you are your actual literal brand not just your logo has to be where it needs to be to capture not just simply get pointed to yes

adequate you know like we can only give you attention we can't give you the guarantee like just one thing i can't guarantee this article goes somewhere you still have to do the work being you the brand your landing page your marketing your product who you are your actual literal brand not just your logo has to be where it needs to be to capture not just simply get pointed to yes

Hey friends, I'm here with Dave Rosenthal, CTO of Sentry. So Dave, I know lots of developers know about Sentry, know about the platform, because hey, we use Sentry and we love Sentry. And I know tracing is one of the next big frontiers for Sentry. Why add tracing to the platform? Why tracing and why now?

Hey friends, I'm here with Dave Rosenthal, CTO of Sentry. So Dave, I know lots of developers know about Sentry, know about the platform, because hey, we use Sentry and we love Sentry. And I know tracing is one of the next big frontiers for Sentry. Why add tracing to the platform? Why tracing and why now?

That's a good call to action.

That's a good call to action.

It was a good call to action. Yeah. I was with you too, Jared, though, on this idea that the fact that AI exists in this slop mannerism, it elevates the actual human. And I think the for now is potentially key. Sure. The human in me wants to believe that a human-to-human relationship will always be more valuable than a human-to-machine relationship, although I've seen the movie Her.

It was a good call to action. Yeah. I was with you too, Jared, though, on this idea that the fact that AI exists in this slop mannerism, it elevates the actual human. And I think the for now is potentially key. Sure. The human in me wants to believe that a human-to-human relationship will always be more valuable than a human-to-machine relationship, although I've seen the movie Her.

And I've seen how twisted people can get at some point in life. And you don't know you're twisted because you don't have perspective. You just live in a modern world and modern world is however modern world is. And so acceptability is skewed based on societal acceptability, not just simply morals. Although there's always that outlier or outliers that direct, you know, back to the moralistic ways.

And I've seen how twisted people can get at some point in life. And you don't know you're twisted because you don't have perspective. You just live in a modern world and modern world is however modern world is. And so acceptability is skewed based on societal acceptability, not just simply morals. Although there's always that outlier or outliers that direct, you know, back to the moralistic ways.

Yeah. But I'm happy because that you still require, you can have AI give you a plan. You can have AI give you a list. You can have AI give you slop and or tons of stuff to edit down. And I think for now, you can't have AI give you the humanity to initiate, engage, and be the human in the world.

Yeah. But I'm happy because that you still require, you can have AI give you a plan. You can have AI give you a list. You can have AI give you slop and or tons of stuff to edit down. And I think for now, you can't have AI give you the humanity to initiate, engage, and be the human in the world.

You still need someone to not just be like, oh, this is how you market, but more like this is how you connect the dots. And the dots are the problem sets with the people with the problem.

You still need someone to not just be like, oh, this is how you market, but more like this is how you connect the dots. And the dots are the problem sets with the people with the problem.

with understanding the pain and, and not just simply coming at it straight, but more like from a different angle that only humans can do because we think so multifaceted that we see a problem differently than it's not just like, Oh, here's, here's problem. Here's solution connect.

with understanding the pain and, and not just simply coming at it straight, but more like from a different angle that only humans can do because we think so multifaceted that we see a problem differently than it's not just like, Oh, here's, here's problem. Here's solution connect.

It's so much more unique than that in the way that you hear somebody's story or a brand story and where they're at and how to get them truly connected with an audience to make that authentic connection. It's such a, such a magic art to do. And it's such, it's so hard to do, but for some it's easy, but it's still so hard even when it's easy.

It's so much more unique than that in the way that you hear somebody's story or a brand story and where they're at and how to get them truly connected with an audience to make that authentic connection. It's such a, such a magic art to do. And it's such, it's so hard to do, but for some it's easy, but it's still so hard even when it's easy.

I've been long LinkedIn for a very long time.

I've been long LinkedIn for a very long time.

I've been diehard collecting friends, but really only people I know. So I've been hardcore about knowing somebody or having met somebody or want to be truly connected to them in some way, shape or form, like truly networking. And I don't mean that in that like I'm being posh or, you know, anything like that whatsoever.

I've been diehard collecting friends, but really only people I know. So I've been hardcore about knowing somebody or having met somebody or want to be truly connected to them in some way, shape or form, like truly networking. And I don't mean that in that like I'm being posh or, you know, anything like that whatsoever.

Just more like I wanted to be about people that I was trying to connect with in some way, shape or form or met literally face to face or virtually in meetings and stuff like that.

Just more like I wanted to be about people that I was trying to connect with in some way, shape or form or met literally face to face or virtually in meetings and stuff like that.

not really this like hey i want to follow you now they do have the follow mechanism but literally connecting that was what i was trying to do there so i feel like all my connections are pretty proper connections not just like you know randos on the internet that i'm a fan of right yeah or vice versa i like the thing where you can deny a connection and say i don't know this person that's right that's right it just feels like the right thing to do doesn't it it does i don't know

not really this like hey i want to follow you now they do have the follow mechanism but literally connecting that was what i was trying to do there so i feel like all my connections are pretty proper connections not just like you know randos on the internet that i'm a fan of right yeah or vice versa i like the thing where you can deny a connection and say i don't know this person that's right that's right it just feels like the right thing to do doesn't it it does i don't know

It takes all kinds. I don't mess around with tornadoes, man. I've seen the movie, both of them. Both of them. You see the new one? Trailers, at least, of the new one. Teasers.

It takes all kinds. I don't mess around with tornadoes, man. I've seen the movie, both of them. Both of them. You see the new one? Trailers, at least, of the new one. Teasers.

He got close enough to that.

He got close enough to that.

Let us know. Yeah. It's got good reviews. Yeah. I feel like it's many of them. Twisters. Yeah, they pluralized it.

Let us know. Yeah. It's got good reviews. Yeah. I feel like it's many of them. Twisters. Yeah, they pluralized it.

I can concur on that with Wonka.

I can concur on that with Wonka.

Seriously.

Seriously.

Yeah. I try to explain it to my kids. I'm like, it's not that that one was better. It was weird. I'm not sure I wanted more of the weird, but I didn't want a complete opposite story.

Yeah. I try to explain it to my kids. I'm like, it's not that that one was better. It was weird. I'm not sure I wanted more of the weird, but I didn't want a complete opposite story.

Like the origin story does not connect.

Like the origin story does not connect.

In my opinion.

In my opinion.