Josh Clark
👤 PersonPodcast Appearances
Hey, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and I'm not going to scream to start this off because I care about all of you listening.
Yeah, I was very surprised and impressed that it's one of those ones where you just think you know about it because you never really thought about it.
And when you dive into it, there's a lot more to it than you ever realized, although all of it makes sense anecdotally.
You're like, oh, yeah, oh, yeah, I've done that.
I've screamed and screamed and screamed again.
I guess human nature explained.
And there's a comma in there somewhere.
Yeah, and for dum-dums with sound like me, the higher the hertz, the higher the pitch.
So hertz is a measure of actual frequency.
Pitch is basically a measure or a description of how we experience that frequency.
No, I can't wait to explain it later because it's going to get flubbed all over the place.
But we're getting ahead of ourselves, Chuck.
Yeah, because if you think about screaming, I always think of someone screaming, usually in a horror movie or something like that.
I haven't heard too many, like, real deal screams in real life, which is nice.
But we're not the only animals that scream.
There's plenty of other animals in the animal kingdom that scream that we know of.
I'm quite sure there's plants that scream, too.
But birds scream, seals, marmots, mountain lions, and I didn't know giraffes scream.
The funniest scream of all is a goat screaming.
If you have never witnessed a goat scream,
go right now to YouTube and just look up goat screaming videos and they don't all scream the same way, but every once in a while, one of them is going to come along and scream like a man.
And it is like, you will, you can't not laugh out loud when you see it.
Every time I watched the same goat scream over and over again.
And I laughed out loud every time I watched it.
It does kind of sound like that.
Another one to look up real quick are two lynx in Ontario screaming at each other.
It's like right in their faces.
Yeah, and that loudness, I saw the Guinness record for the loudest scream is 129 decibels, which is one decibel under a jet engine and almost 10 times louder than a police siren.
I don't know, but man, I can't imagine that they did that too many times because as we'll see, screaming can really mess up your neck junk.
I've got a lot of neck junk, too.
It's like the one time where not screaming means that there's an issue.
And there's a lot of information in a baby's scream.
There's just a lot that makes a parent, because we're tuned to this kind of thing, especially if you're the parent of that baby.
Studies show that you respond to your own baby's cries or screams a lot more easily or quickly than somebody who is not the parent of that baby.
But you rush over there and you say, here's some food.
You just got all the phlegm out of your throat.
So now you can breathe normally.
I just, you know, I tried to bounce her on my knee faster and it did the opposite of help.
She got like hair in her mouth.
So there is a syndrome that's colloquially called, I think, cri du chat, cry of the cat in French.
And it has some similarities to Down syndrome.
But one of the defining characteristics of cri du chat is a larynx malformation so that babies, when they cry, like the loud screaming cry, make a very specific cry that sounds very much like a cat crying.
You can find a couple of videos on YouTube of people with their baby with crudishot crying, and it's really cute in a lot of ways.
But also you're like, that sounds a lot like a cat.
And it's so distinct that you can actually initially diagnose an infant with crudishot syndrome because of their cry.
I don't think we really need to describe fight or flight.
Okay, well, anyway, I'll take it from here, Chuck.
Because the reason you brought that up is screams activate fire flight mode in some really like basic ways, as we'll see.
And so a scream actually activates in you, a human who hears a scream, that readiness to like either spring into action or run like hell or freeze.
Or fawn is the other one now because the fight or flight syndrome has really come a long way since we last talked about it.
And fawn is the response that you want when a baby's crying.
You want to go over and be like, oh, it's okay.
Yeah, and it's a lot faster to basically activate us than the normal speech that we hear, right?
So when you talk, when you're making just talk, like I am right now, say, this is a good example.
I'm using this description as an example in real time, okay?
So I'm using my laryngeal motor cortex.
That's basically running the show right now, and that is a higher brain process, right?
I'm figuring out how my mouth should move, which also requires fine motor coordination.
I think from our internal dialogue episode, I'm doing a quick quality check right before I actually say the words.
Do I sound like a Muppet-y tenor?
And then this stuff is sent to the brainstem, which basically says, okay, larynx and vocal cords and lungs and abdominal muscles, let's talk.
And again, it requires a lot of higher brain processing.
Screaming uses a different set of equipment to to make itself happen.
It's nuts because you think screaming is a form of speech.
It's actually not, even though we use a lot of the same stuff, a lot of the same bait and tackle, say, like it's its own thing, which is I just find this is where I'm like, OK, this is super fascinating now.
Yeah, once the scream comes out of someone else, when we hear that scream, it puts us in fight-or-flight mode before we're even consciously aware that we have heard a scream.
That's how finely tuned we are to responding to screams.
Which, again, this is something you just think exists out there.
And then when you dig in, you're like, my God.
So there's like a whole set of processes that take place that, again, are different than how we would respond if we hear regular speech, right?
So it follows some of the same processes.
It hits the outer ear, goes through the ear canal.
The eardrum goes boom, boom, boom.
That is amplified in the middle ear, and that goes on to the cochlea, which triggers a wave along the basilar membrane, which says, I'm going to turn this into an electrical signal, sends it to the auditory nerve, which sends it to the brainstem, and then to the thalamus.
And the thalamus is the sensory clearinghouse.
It sends this to that and that to that.
All of your sensory information goes to the thalamus.
And here is where it diverges from normal speech.
And the reason why that happens is because when it hits that thalamus, it gets sent two different ways.
Like it gets sent the normal way to that higher brain processing.
And when it goes through that higher brain processing, that's when you become conscious of hearing that scream.
But what's happened even faster is it got sent to that amygdala and that sent in the fight or flight response.
And that happened before your higher brain finished processing, which is just, so there's this own pathway for just screams that the human brain has evolved to basically make you able to respond to a scream faster.
Screams only, essentially, is what it says.
And if your regular speech, you try to use that same expressway, it's got those tire bursting spikes.
That will just stop you cold right there.
And they'll send you back along the way you're supposed to go to the higher brain.
You go back to talk town, buddy.
And it's going to take you a while to get there because you don't have tires.
You're driving on just rims now.
Because you were dumb and you made a poor decision.
It's a little brain-breaking, but we'll get it.
I think it's one of those things where I just thought too hard about it, and I've made it brain-breaking.
So screams have something in common, and that is that they exist in a region of human perception that's called the roughness domain.
And if you take someone's voice.
My voice has a certain frequency.
You can recognize it as mine, but you can take my voice and make it modulate.
So like the British police car that goes doo doo doo doo doo doo.
So it has its own frequency, right?
But you're making it change pitch.
So that's a second frequency that it has.
And if that frequency is between 30 hertz and 150 hertz, that modulation between up and down
or left and right, however you want to look at it, that is that roughness area.
And it also seems to be reserved, as far as human sounds go, just for screams.
We usually edit the claps out.
I think we should leave that one in.
Is that the bad guys in Doctor Who?
I think a klaxon is the... Oh, those are terrible.
Like pull your credit card out of the card terminal?
I think they've kind of stopped, but it used to be really jarring.
Forget your credit card, melt down a nuclear facility, basically the same thing.
Well, okay, that was just part one of this study.
This is a really robust study.
So they analyzed recorded sounds and they found that screams were all in roughness and the only other sounds that were in there were alarms, right?
Then they got a bunch of volunteers, almost guaranteed NYU undergrads looking for extra credit.
And they said, we want you to make a bunch of sounds.
We want you to speak normally.
We want you to scream, speak normally.
and make a bunch of meaningless vocalizations, like yips, yammers, yelps, that whole thing, right?
And then they analyzed those just like they analyzed the recorded sounds, and they found that all of the scream sounds were in the roughness domain, and all of the non-scream sounds, including yips and yammersers, were not in the roughness domain whatsoever.
So they're really zeroing in, and yet there's more to this study.
So they're really drilling down here.
They actually took volunteers, probably the same ones who rated the scariness of the sounds,
And they scanned them while they were listening to scary sounds.
And not just screams, but also artificial alarms, too, and probably some of the nonsense sounds and musical sounds.
And as they were listening, the screams and the alarms were the only ones that caused spikes in the amygdala.
Remember, the amygdala is where that set-aside pathway for screams is.
And that the higher on the roughness scale, if you can call it that, that the screams or alarms were, the greater the amygdala activity.
And then the greater the amygdala activity that was shown in the scans, the higher those sounds had been rated for scariness by the volunteers previously.
And when they wrapped it up and put all this together, they were like, I forgot what we were studying in the first place.
Yes, and they think it's because the amygdala is tuned to that 30 to 150 hertz roughness band.
So the amygdala has its own route for getting you aroused, and not necessarily in the best way, when you hear a scream.
And it's also listening out to a specific band of modulation to that scream's existence.
So clearly, thanks to our NYU researchers back in 2015, screams are a really important and kind of overlooked part of human speech, right?
And they think also, Chuck, that not only have we evolved to develop this alarm system, which clearly is what it is, because not only are you saying help, you're also, depending on how nice or altruistic the people listening are, you're also saying, look out, there's danger.
And they may run away if they flee, or they might run to you to help you if they're ready to fight.
But they also have shown that screams have evolved in other ways, too.
Like we don't scream just out of an alarm system anymore.
There's actually at least six other screams that they discovered that correlate or correspond to six other separate emotions.
There's a Europe song called Scream of Anger.
And Europe, of course, is known for a different song.
Scream of Anger is even better.
The one I always associate with that is Tom Berenger telling that guy who got shot in the gut and platoon to eat the pain.
That guy was definitely screaming in pain.
So there's also, this one's great, Scream of Extreme Joy.
Yeah, like at a concert, maybe?
Or if you watch The Simpsons and go back and watch, I think, the Murder House episode where Marge is a real estate agent selling a murder house to Ned Flanders, you hear a terrible scream, and it turns out it's Ned Flanders screaming in joy because there's purple drapes in the house.
Next to that, I just have an ellipse.
I feel like this one may have just been mislabeled because I think you can make a case that what they're describing here is actually a scream of emotional pain, not physical pain, emotional pain.
I mean, maybe it's just me that was like, no, that's wrong.
A really good example of it as far as movies go is Toni Collette in Hereditary.
She finds out that her daughter has died.
Yeah, she's wrenching the man work she does like like, oh, my God, it's really tough to watch.
And of course, it's all over the Internet.
I've seen people here or there describe it as potentially the darkest dark comedy around.
And there's this one part that I think kind of supports it.
Do you remember the part where Stephen is in the classroom and he messes himself up pretty good?
Yeah, I mean, it's really good.
I've seen it, I think, just a couple of times.
But the second time I saw it was not too long ago.
But, Chuck, please, please watch St.
As far as A24 horror movies go, that's one of the more overlooked ones.
Yeah, and I don't think you watched it.
Because you would have definitely come back and been like, dude.
Like, this is not for kids, and there's, you know, really upsetting stuff throughout.
No, but we do think that some non-human primates scream out in grief, though.
I think that's a great way to end this section and start with the ab break.
This is like the comments section of my Instagram.
The Big Take podcast from Bloomberg News dives deep into one big global business story every weekday.
I know what you're talking about.
Well, me and everybody listening will definitely see it coming now.
Okay, so there's a name that's been kind of bestowed on some actresses over the years, which is Scream Queen.
I always associate that with Jamie Lee Curtis, who got that from Halloween and prom night.
It actually dates back like 50 plus years before Halloween with Fay Wray when she was in King Kong in 1933.
Apparently, I've not seen the original King Kong, but her screams are supposedly really terrifying.
And they did them all in post-production, like apparently American Movie.
And then they mixed them together to just make them as disturbing as possible.
But Fay Wray, the 1930s actress, was the original Scream Queen.
Yeah, he was just a legend, wasn't he?
So keep an eye on Donald Sutherland when you watch that movie for the first time.
Thomas Jane gives a really terrible scream at the end of The Mist, which has one of the most unsettling endings, I think, of any movie ever.
Maybe tied with it comes in the night.
which is another really unsettling A24 movie.
Bruce Campbell, he's a great man screamer.
And then Justin Long, he's been in way more horror movies than you would think.
But I'm pretty sure he screams pretty well in Barbarian.
And then also, I can't help but bring up, since I mentioned Justin Long, he's in a new movie called Coyotes, which is a horror comedy about coyotes going on a rampage.
And it just so happens that my niece Mila Harris is in that movie, too.
She plays his and Kate Bosworth's daughter.
Thanks for circling back like that.
And I would make an assertion that Mia Goth is the current Scream queen from the Maxine trilogy.
She's the one killing it right now.
He's such a good guy, too, man.
It's like his comedy is perfect.
Like he's it's I'm just really happy that he's so huge now.
Don't just check out that old movie crush.
Check out all the movie crushes because they are all priceless gems.
So did you mention death metal?
So, yeah, so the University of Utah conducted these tests where they took dynamic MRI.
So, like, you don't have to just be laying down still to get an MRI image of a person.
They took MRIs of a guy named Will Ramos, who's a death core singer for a band called Lorna Shore.
And he is extraordinarily talented.
Whether you like Death Core or can't stand Death Core, go look up to the Hellfire, the Lorna Shore video, and his range of the work he does with screaming, like Death Core screaming, you can't help but be impressed.
So they got a really good person to study because not only is he really good at screaming Death Core-wise or Death Metal-wise,
his vocal junk, his neck junk is like entirely intact.
He's been doing this for years and he hasn't done any damage.
So these University of Utah researchers are like, what are you doing?
Can we take MRIs of you singing?
And it's really cool because the one of him just singing normally
You can barely see any movement inside the neck, right?
When he screams, it just is chaos in there.
And apparently people who know what the anatomy is can look at him and be like, oh, my God, he's doing this.
And this is how he's keeping from ruining his vocal cords.
So they actually got pretty far with it.
But it's worth checking out that article because just for the MRI side by side.
The reason why they think that it does help with pain relief is because one of the hormones or one of the chemicals released in the fight or flight response is our endorphins, which can dull pain.
So it does make sense that screaming could help you with pain.
There's another clever use of screaming, if you ask me, than screaming in the emergency room, which is replacing the current paradigm for creating anxiety inside a lab to study anxiety for research, which is to threaten people with a shock.
And they've actually found that you can threaten people with a scream and generate anxiety just as reliably.
So people are like, we should stop threatening people with shocks because it's unethical.
And just start saying somebody's going to scream in a second or maybe two seconds.
And that can generate anxiety as well.
They'll be like, we want you to feel anxiety right now, please.
I'm sure the participant would be like, I feel anxiety all the time.
And actually, I think it's possible it can hurt in trauma therapy because screaming can arouse anxiety in the person screaming even too.
So not necessarily the best thing to do.
There's like one of those wicker chairs that people used to take prom pictures in.
There's definitely one of those in the office.
Yeah, I think Black Moses album cover, wasn't Isaac Hayes in one of those?
Was there like a panther laying at his feet too?
Probably, there should have been.
Okay, well obviously since we started talking about Isaac Hayes, I think we just unlocked listener mail, Chuck.
That was really, really sweet.
Thank you for taking the time to write all that.
And thank you for sharing our Sesame Street episode.
It's a pretty good one to share if you ask me.
And if you want to be like Leslie and send us a very nice email, we always love getting those.
You can send it off to stuffpodcast at iheartradio.com.
Put another way, are you high?
Josh, Chuck, Jerry, not Dave, but still Dave.
There's no way we didn't talk about that.
But this is definitely an exploded, expanded, really balloony version of that.
And that was Narcissus who had a tattoo, by the way.
So yeah, it was bad luck to see your reflection in water.
And that was pretty much the only place you could see your reflection if you were an ancient Greek, because it wasn't until the ancient Romans came along and they said, yeah, we basically believe the same thing, but we're also incredibly vain.
So we're going to invent mirrors.
And eventually the mirrors that they came up with at the beginning were highly polished metal surfaces.
So if you had like an old shield sitting around, don't throw it away.
You can upcycle it and do a terrific mirror.
Oh, I've always heard it as narcissist, but I like how you said it.
I'm not mocking you at all here, okay?
Okay, good.
Did they say Narcissus?
I'm quite sure that at least one or both of them studied Greek mythology at UGA at some point.
Oh, congratulations, Lucy.
That's awesome.
I think you told me that.
That's really cool.
And to keep everybody grounded, you know?
They're very well known for trashing hotel rooms, too.
And I bet they did not trash any of them because of Lucy Wainwright Roach's kid.
We were talking about shields as mirrors.
Those were the first mirrors.
Yeah, and if you believe that the reflection in the mirror, your reflection, is actually you're seeing your soul, if you break a mirror, you're breaking your soul, too.
And so there's a couple of ways that that could bring about misfortune, apparently.
One is that your soul couldn't protect your body any longer.
That's why all sorts of bad stuff befalls you for seven years.
Then also—
In some traditions, your soul is rather upset at having been broken, and now it's looking for revenge on you.
And sometimes it does that in the form of killing one of your loved ones.
It's not what you want.
I mean, you already broke your very nice mirror, and now your grandma died?
I like both of those.
So as far as the English language goes, Chuck, the first time anyone mentions breaking a mirror being bad luck was from 1777, where the author mentions that breaking a mirror is a very unlucky accident because mirrors were part of an ancient kind of divination formerly used by magicians and their superstitious and diabolical operations.
OK, so let's take a little break, as it were, and come back, try to put everything together by explaining what you can do to mitigate your bad luck if you do break a mirror.
So this is based on a HowStuffWorks article.
I love how they actually are serious about telling you how to throw away a broken mirror.
You dispose of the pieces in the trash by wrapping them in paper or placing them in a cardboard box.
Because sharp mirror pieces can cut through a plastic bag.
That has nothing to do with superstition.
That's just good household advice.
Another one, this automatically makes it ancient to me, is that you take the mirror pieces and you bury them.
And then what makes it even more ancient is that you're better off if you bury them in the light of a full moon.
But it seems to me you'd have to do a little weighing of cost-benefit of keeping the mirror pieces around until a full moon.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, if you especially if you broke your mirror on the new moon, then you're keeping these unlucky pieces around for a month.
I don't know, man.
I don't know if the full moon would mitigate that bad luck that you accrued over the month.
I think I would go two days max, too.
Take it to a party?
Works for everything.
So we're talking mirrors and mirrors are made from glass, but glass, non-mirrored glass, breaking it actually is used as good luck sometimes, although it can also be bad luck too.
Apparently in England, breaking a glass is a death omen.
Which means people would be dropping like flies around me because I break glasses a lot.
And then there's other mirror superstitions, too.
Like the mirror is just a superstition factory, apparently.
So there are traditions where if somebody passes away, you cover the mirrors in your house with something just to make it so no one can see the reflection.
And there's a few reasons to do this.
One is the person who's died, their soul is now wandering around until they're buried.
And apparently if they see the reflection in the mirror, they get sucked into the mirror and stuck there.
And you don't want that to happen to your poor grandma's soul.
Now, imagine, Chuck, if you broke your mirror.
It caused your grandma to die.
You replaced the mirror and your poor grandma saw her soul, saw herself in that new mirror and is trapped in it.
That's a lot of bad luck.
Because also grandma always just told you you weren't doing anything right.
There's also some marriage stuff, too.
In Edwardian Britain, which took place in the first decade of the 20th century, if you wanted to know what your future husband was going to be like or if you'd be married at all, you could sit down in front of a mirror with some candlelight.
And if you saw your husband show up in the mirror, I'll get if a grim specter appear, you would die before you got married.
That doesn't necessarily mean that you die at 20 or something like that.
It just means that you might die an old, unmarried person.
I don't know.
There's not much sweeter.
So I guess this Halloween season, we would say go out, kiss your mirror, and take very good care of it.
Don't you think that's good advice?
And of course, obviously, that means that the spooky short stuff is out.
Put another way, are you high?
Yeah.
Hey and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too.
And this is Stuff You Should Know.
And what we've got on our hands today, Chuck, is a hot potato of a real deal geological mystery.
I think I would only say it when it's preceded by hot.
I would only say it like, like I wouldn't say I'm going to have a baked potato.
Like you'd be out of your mind to say it like that.
Yeah, that is pretty square, isn't it?
Loosen up.
Loosen up.
Get the cardigan out from around your shoulders.
So that was obscure, but still.
So like I said, this is a mystery today.
And just to give a brief brush stroke overview with the widest brush, real lot of space in between bristles, just barely any paint on it.
That kind of overview.
What we're talking about is something called the Younger Dryas, which is a pretty, it's a pretty terrible name for this if you want to be catchy, right?
Right.
Well, let's just call it the YD if we're going to put initials on things.
How about that?
Or abbreviate things.
So the YD, the Younger Dryas, is this surprising, shocking period in Earth's history, fairly recent history, where we came out of the last ice age.
Everything was going smoothly.
And then bam, we got hit by another ice age out of nowhere.
That lasts for over a thousand years.
And then bam, it goes away just as fast as it came along.
And paleo geologists, paleo climatologists, all the paleos are perplexed as to what caused it and then why it stopped so suddenly too.
That's why I said it's a real deal geological mystery.
Right, and you call it a legit Earth because when it finally ended, and actually that period in between the last ice age and the YD, those are like really habitable for human beings.
Like we love those kinds of conditions so much so that after the YD ended, it became the age of humans.
Yeah.
Like this is the age where we began our civilizations, we started farming, we began to flourish as a species and basically take over the planet.
And what's interesting is this is the most recent ice age.
There have been seven in Earth's history.
And just as an aside, this was the Wisconsinian ice age that we're talking about.
The last one was 250 million years before, right?
So it's pretty significant that we just, geologically speaking, came out of an ice age because there's not that many.
And then, not coincidentally, when the second-to-last Ice Age ended, that opened the door for the dinosaurs to come along and take over the Earth.
So big things happen when an Ice Age changes.
So for it to switch back to an Ice Age all of a sudden and then switch back to nice and temperate for us humans, it is just very weird.
It was actually, I've seen it described as an extreme weather millennial event.
The second one.
Exactly.
That's exactly right.
So, yeah, that's a really anthropic way of looking at it.
Well.
Speaking of, I bought a copy of If Anyone Builds It, Everyone Dies, the Eliezer Yudkowsky Nate Soros book that just came out.
No, you do.
We remember I basically mischaracterized it in the Zizians episode and had.
Oh, yeah.
OK, that book right about building A.I.
And if anyone builds it, then we're all going to die.
Like just the existential threat of A.I.
It is really good.
You could read it in if you had a day that you could dedicate to reading it, you could read it in a day.
It's really popularly written.
Lots of really cool anecdotes.
It's just very good.
So I strongly recommend that book.
Great.
Okay.
So let's kind of just back it up a little bit and go to the previous Ice Age, the Wisconsinian Ice Age, and talk about what Earth looked like like that.
Mm-hmm.
Right, and so the last ice age started about 100,000 years ago, and it took about 80,000 years to reach its peak point.
So 20,000 years ago, it hit what's called the last glacial maximum, right?
So it took 80,000 years to get there, and then 10,000 years to basically melt.
It melted a lot faster than it developed.
And just like right after it peaked, it just started warming up.
And it took about 9,000 years.
And all of the ice sheets, all the glaciers, all the stuff that was covering Earth and keeping it in an ice age just basically went away.
And Earth just blossomed into a version that we like.
Is it really?
Yeah.
That's all it is.
Yeah.
So all of our Nordic friends, the circle with the forward slash through or the O with the forward slash through, that's an umlaut, right?
I think you nailed it.
Yeah, this was actually right before this was the point when people from Eurasia migrated into North America.
So this is the point where they were cut off.
They couldn't go back.
There's no going back.
They were in North and South America now because the Bering land bridge was covered up by those rising sea levels, which turned it into the Bering Sea.
And this time, so remember, we're talking about this little period after the end of the Ice Age, before the YD comes along, where everything seems to be going smoothly for humans.
This is where we started taking our first stabs at agriculture.
We're just like, let's try something new.
We just came out of an Ice Age.
Let's just get as funky as we can with it.
And we're going to basically take some of that energy and that time that we dedicate to hunting and gathering and put it into farming.
I just made that word up, but let's call it that from now on.
Yeah, where we basically said, that's a good-looking plant.
Let's just try to make that one grow as well as we can.
Yeah, I think by a hundred years, it was really like in full swing.
And then, yeah, 500 years is basically like the ice age is back.
Right.
No, just keep farming and be quiet.
We should also say, Kyle helped us with this, and he said that the younger Dryas came along and spoiled the party.
That's truer than you would think, because right before this, in that Boolean-Olerod interstadial, was when we started making beer, too.
So that got disrupted as well.
So another reason we would have wiped ourselves out in just one global bar fight, basically.
So this kicks off 1,300 years of really, really cold weather.
And then all of a sudden it just stops.
And it comes along, it like happened starting about 100 years, 500 years into it.
It was really basically back to ice age conditions in a lot of places.
But when it stopped, it swung back to nice and humid even faster.
And there's actual ice cores from Greenland that show that Greenland in 10 years, the average temperature increased by 18 degrees Fahrenheit, 10 degrees Celsius.
That is insane.
And for comparison, so the global warming that's going on today that scientists are quite concerned about and thinking people as well, that's a rise of two degrees Fahrenheit, not 18 degrees Fahrenheit, two degrees Fahrenheit in about 20 decades.
We're talking about 18 degree rise in one decade.
That's how fast this thing warmed up.
No, because you've got clay from melting glaciers above it and clay from melting glaciers below this flower.
And this flower thrives in temperatures where the glaciers are not melting at all.
So it was a huge mystery.
And then what made it even more mysterious is that it was confirmed by other clay deposits elsewhere in Scandinavia.
So there was definitely something weird going on.
And they named it Younger Dryas because there actually had been an Older Dryas before.
Yeah.
That was not nearly as much of a bizarre freak as the younger Dryas was.
Yeah, yay.
So, Chuck, we've been talking like pretty big shots, pretty confident here, right?
Exactly.
And the reason why we're doing that is because of ice core samples, a lot from Greenland, also from Antarctica, and sedimentation from high altitude European lakes.
That's why we're talking so tough right now.
Yeah, because constantly sediment is accumulating at the bottom of a lake and very similar stuff's getting trapped down there, like air bubbles, soot, pollen, all that stuff.
And it just gets deposited year after year.
And you can actually date that stuff.
You can take a sample of a lake bottom and date that and then see what was going on around the lake at that time too.
And lakes are advantageous because they're all over the world.
Ice shelves and glaciers are not all over the world.
So
You're limited from where you can take ice cores.
And then also lakes can last like thousands of years, whereas if you're reading tree rings, you're reading maybe decades, maybe a century or two worth.
A lake, it's going to give you way more than that.
So it's pretty clever the way that they can take this stuff, not only figure out when this sediment deposit or this ice deposit was put down,
But also what like a lack of pollen or what type of pollen means for like the world at large at the time.
I just think that's pretty cool that humans are able to do that.
And they don't seem to just be making this up.
That's super nerdy.
I think that would actually offset the be dumb and happy one that you got generated.
And they'll just silently walk past you and give you the high five and the low five without stopping.
Or they lock fingers with you on the lo-fi and you guys keep trying to go in different directions.
It's so weird.
Has she ever done that?
I think she likes to raise people's hands like they just won a boxing match or something.
Oh, I don't know.
Depends on whether you say potato or patata.
Yeah, and even if you weren't living in an iced-over area, basically due south of that was tundra.
So Western Europe, which is nice and verdant and lush right now, was tundra at the time.
You've got grasses, maybe a fox or two if you're lucky and you're bored just looking around because it's not the most pleasant landscape to look at.
Remember, humans are running around at this time.
I think we shrunk tremendously as a population down to maybe the highest estimate I saw was around 10 million people across the entire planet at this time.
That sounds nice, actually.
Talk about elbow room.
But all the plants and animals that had started to thrive in the middle, in between the Ice Age and the YD, they died back.
And all the animals and plants that had died back during that interstadial period, they came roaring back.
And they were like, we love the YD.
We're happy again.
Yeah.
Right.
And from that, you can also infer that there was probably less rain because trees help generate clouds and they also help keep the planet warm.
So it was obviously a lot colder and a lot drier.
That was the two characteristics of the YED.
And then, like you said, the Southern Hemisphere experienced something radically different.
Right.
So remember, Northern Europe is covered in ice again.
It's tundra right below that.
And then if you go down to Antarctica, they basically hand you like a lei and a Hawaiian shirt and like a Mai Tai.
Yeah, but you also mentioned earlier that it didn't happen.
There were weird pockets here and there, which also goes to underscore how bizarre the Younger Dryas was.
Like, there's a basin around Venezuela, and it actually had temperatures drop.
So this is the southern hemisphere, right?
It saw a temperature drop of 3 degrees Celsius, 5.5 degrees Fahrenheit.
And every time I see something like that, I'm like, so?
Like, that's not that big of a deal.
It turns out it is a really big deal, even though to you, an average winter temperature of 55 going down to 50 doesn't sound all that bad.
But climatologically speaking, any change in temperature, even by half degrees,
has really huge weather consequences over, say, the course of a year.
So in this case, dropping by 3 degrees Celsius or 5.5 degrees Fahrenheit, it might not have seen that much temperature-wise over an average winter, but it also opened up the door for way more freak weather.
So they might have gone from like no blizzards whatsoever, maybe one blizzard a year to three blizzards a year.
And that definitely impacts local conditions in the life there.
So it makes a really big difference even when you see little changes to average temperatures.
Yeah, and the evidence that people, the human population contracted, meaning there was a lot of die-off, shows up in archaeological sites like the Herrensberg culture in present-day Germany, Austria, and Belgium.
During the YD, the archaeological sites dropped by half
Compared to what they had been just before the YD, which suggests that there are a lot fewer people making a lot fewer camps or villages.
And then also significantly in North America, this is when the very famous Clovis culture just disappears from the record.
Clovis.
We did a whole episode on the Clovis.
Yeah, they used to pop up a bunch.
Remember the whole Clovis first police and all that stuff?
It really does.
So this is when they disappeared.
And they don't think that the Clovis all just died off, but they think that these weather conditions and hardships for living basically dispersed them and they started forming the prototypes to the bands of Native Americans that we see today.
Yes, and it was quite an innovation because the arrowheads they were using before were made of dandelion heads.
Yeah, shoot one of those my way.
I could use a laugh.
Right.
And then also, Chuck, it really helps that there were people dabbling in agriculture before the YD came along because it seems to have given the people related to them a bit of a leg up.
Like they didn't have to figure out agriculture from scratch under these conditions.
So in pockets where there was vegetation and a decent amount of game, people did settle down again in those areas.
There's a place called the Zagros region, which is in modern Iran.
which shows settlements that were basically probably not just hunting camps.
They were probably permanent or semi-permanent settlements.
So people did like sit down where they could and set up shop.
And as a matter of fact, some people say, OK, people were kind of dabbling in agriculture before, but it was just dabbling.
And in fact, that culture might not have been passed along.
It is possible that the Younger Dryas did force humans to basically adopt agriculture because, again, remember, conditions are so terrible that whatever leg up you, a human, can give to this plant that you're going to eat later is invaluable.
So that's basically what agriculture is, is helping plants along to make them grow better.
Yeah.
Yeah, like imagine being the guy who is watching the other guy pour water out of his gazelle flask.
Yeah.
Onto like a little.
The ground.
Yeah, like some wheat.
Yeah.
What are you doing?
And they'd say, just watch.
Just give me a couple thousand years and you're going to be blown away.
Right.
And then it magically turns into beer.
I think we shall, Chuck.
The Big Take
Thank you.
Yeah, specifically in the North Atlantic, which has this thing that you mentioned, the thermohaline circulation, which is where warm water warmed by surface air on top of the ocean falls down into the deep water.
And as it does it, it displaces the cold water, which comes up to the top and gets warmed itself.
Then it sinks and the cycle just keeps going on and on, right?
This is how warmth
is delivered to the northern hemisphere, right?
It moves northward, so the warmer seawater is always moving toward the north, so it's delivering warmth.
And at the same time, that cold water upwells in the southern hemisphere, so it delivers cold to the southern hemisphere, which is why, under normal conditions with the thermohaline circulation, Antarctica is cold, and comparatively speaking, the northern hemisphere is warmer.
Yeah.
And so fresh water is less dense than seawater.
And so a bunch of fresh water mixed in with seawater makes it less dense than it normally would be.
And it needs to be dense to fall down to the deep ocean.
which makes the other deeper water come back up, right?
Yeah.
So that means that the thermohaline circulation is interrupted.
And if you have an interruption in the thermohaline circulation, it just stops moving like that.
You would expect to see the northern hemisphere get cold because there's warmth is not being delivered there any longer.
You'd also expect to see Antarctica warm up because that cold, deep ocean water is not welling up around the very southern, southern hemisphere.
And that's exactly what you see with the Younger Dryas.
It's a really beautiful, elegant explanation that I think was hypothesized in 1982.
And up until very, very recently, you were a fringy nut if you believed anything besides that as the explanation for where the Younger Dryas came from.
Yeah, basically the same exact result, but just it was different things that got us there.
Right.
So there's evidence for this that most people point to is like this is pretty good evidence.
There's something called a black mat, which is a layer of carbon matter that seems to be a soot deposit that you find all over North America and in parts of Europe.
And all that suggests that there were wildfires going on on different continents at the same time, which would suggest like some sort of massive comet or meteorite bursting and setting off this thermal pulse.
So the fact that those things coincide on two different continents with the onset of the Younger Dryas,
has definitely made the impact hypothesis much more popular than it was before.
One thing detracting from it that probably makes some legitimate scientists wary of embracing it publicly right now is the writer and science contrarian Graham Hancock latched onto the impact hypothesis because he has this theory, I guess you could call it that, that there was an ancient apocalypse happening
around the time that the Younger Dryas happened that wiped out massively advanced civilizations that we don't even know really existed and reset humanity.
And then we had to rebuild from there.
And there's not a lot of evidence, if any, for this stuff.
It's really, really fascinating.
But the evidence we do have, the scientific evidence we do have, doesn't set that up.
But anyway, he basically said, see, this impact hypothesis supports my idea that there was an ancient apocalypse.
And scientists tend not to agree with Graham Hancock much.
Yeah, which makes sense.
It's basically like handing an olive branch from one hypothesizer to another, you know.
Let's work together.
Also, as an aside, remember our Gobleki Tepe episode?
It's been a while.
I don't remember exactly how to pronounce it.
We talked about how there was this guy who also kind of fringely concluded that some astronomical engravings at the site recorded the comet or the meteorite burst that happened at this time, which is kind of cool.
But again, there's not a lot of evidence to support it.
Moving on, there's a couple of other explanations that don't have nearly as much traction, but they do make sense.
One is a supernova explosion.
Supposedly, a star went supernova in the Vela constellation at the right time that could have affected Earth by burning away its ozone layer, which would cool the upper stratosphere, which is the second most layer above Earth.
which would prevent it from holding much water vapor.
Water vapor is a greenhouse gas, and without a very strong greenhouse gas in the atmosphere, heat would just go out into space much more easily from Earth, and it would get cooler as a result.
The problem with this one that I have is wouldn't that happen all over the planet if the ozone layer was burned away by a supernova?
So I'm going to toss that one, okay?
Well, it's landlocked, yes.
That's cubic kilometers.
No, 6.3 cubic kilometers.
To the third power, though.
No, so that's what makes it cubic.
So if you took a kilometer of land and you made it square and you did that 6.3 times, and then you also made it a kilometer tall, a cube that's 6.3 kilometers on each side just of magma got released from that volcano.
It was a massive eruption.
Well, finally, you did.
I'm the one who does it all the time.
Yes.
And so the volcanic eruption hypothesizers frequently say, hey, how about this?
A volcano erupted and attracted a comet that blew up over North America, which kicked off the melting of the ice caps, which caused the thermohaline circulation problem.
Yeah.
And then the supernova person's like, what about me?
And they're like, sorry, you're not invited.
Exactly.
Yeah, the beginnings of our era all find its roots in this time.
Like this is where agriculture developed.
This is where civilization first developed.
Writing came along a few thousand years later.
I mean, all of this happened in a really short period of time.
Like essentially everything that has to do with like human civilization began in the 10,000 years immediately following the Younger Dryas.
Yeah, and that's actually one reason why it's difficult to track what humans were doing during the Younger Dryas, because the settlements that they had that were closer to the coastline then are now under hundreds of feet of ocean water and are probably just totally destroyed.
So we lost a lot of archaeological sites because of that sea level rise.
But it was a tradeoff because, again, we have writing.
Yeah.
And really, is there anything more you need to prove that humans have reached peak civilization than that?
Okay.
Well, I guess that's it for the YD, right, Chuck?
Well put.
And because Chuck said, who knows what's ahead?
Truly.
It's time for Listener Mail.
Hot patata.
Awesome, Patrick.
Thank you for that.
Patrick and his wife, Christine, right?
Yep.
So thanks to you both.
And Patrick, I have to say, if you're going to have a birthmark that's not in the shape of Abraham Lincoln...
The place that you have it is about as cool as it can be.
Agreed.
If you want to be like Patrick and Christine and let us know how long you've been listening to us and what you think, hopefully it's generally positive, you can send us an email too.
Send it off to stuffpodcast at iheartradio.com.
Put another way, are you high?
And for this week's Select, I've chosen our 2015 episode on ESP.
It's a really good one.
We talk about all sorts of things about ESP, including the science.
And I know what you're thinking.
You're thinking science and ESP?
And that's one of the things that makes this episode so cool.
So I hope you will open your mind, tune in, turn on, drop out, keep on trucking, and enjoy this episode.
hey and welcome to the podcast i'm josh clark there's charles w chuck bryant and jerry's over there i didn't even have to look why i just knew uh yes and dudes and dudettes we are in our new studio yeah can you tell does it sound different it's the very first one and um it's tiny wait what do you mean it's the very first one
Very, very first podcast that we've recorded in here.
I was going to say, I said tiny, but it's not tiny.
It's cozy, but it is all ours.
Everybody else at How Stuff Works doesn't really know that yet, but they will.
Yeah, because when we actually have butt detection, when someone sits down in these seats that aren't us, they get a shock.
Yeah, and plus an alarm goes off at our desks.
Yeah, what's that called, DMR?
I feel like this is fancy.
This is our first real studio.
No, I'm trying to remember.
The last one was, no.
But it's not a utility closet.
It's not a lactation room.
It's not a murder room.
It's not like an office with like desk, like office furniture.
It's a studio that was built out for the specific purpose of recording podcasts.
All we have to do is put up our Aaron Cooper originals, the artwork.
Got a couple of those waiting to come.
And we got to work on the lighting in here a little bit.
Jerry said she's going to hang some china balls for us.
Yeah, she keeps pushing the china balls.
So anyway, enough about that.
We just wanted to say we're super excited to be in our new office and our new studio.
Kudos for that intro.
I'm not going to say that I knew you were going to say that.
Yeah, I was going to say that too.
I knew that you were thinking of saying that, Chuck.
Do you believe in ESP?
What do you think it is?
Because surely, I mean, just about anyone could agree that humans have some sort of ability somehow to make good guesses or to predict the future, whatever you want to call it.
Do you agree or do you think it's strictly just us selectively paying attention to random instances over others?
And as we'll talk about, I think it's just the nature of coincidence is going to happen because so many things happen every day that something is bound to seem like something you dreamed about the night before at some point in your life.
But the other millions of dreams you have that don't, I think those are the ones that are the tell.
I spent so many years of my life believing in stuff like that and wanting to go to Duke University to study at their parapsychology department.
Yeah, believing in ghosts and all this.
That's how I spent my childhood, just reading about stuff like that voraciously.
So Ghostbusters really did a number on you.
Yeah, when that came along, I was like, this was made for me.
But as an adult, it's not so much that I believe in ESP.
It's more that I refuse to just utterly disbelieve in the possibility of it.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, I got you there because we don't know everything about everything yet.
But, yeah, I'm in the other camp.
And I'm not even going to say the skeptic camp because those people just bug me.
Has a bad name due to some bad apples.
But there are some that are horses' asses.
All right, well, let's talk about, and I thought this was interesting because I never knew that ESP is just a big collective term for all manner of paranormal phenomena, which you could also call Psy.
Yeah, and so a dude named J.B.
Rhine, who we'll talk about later, he coined ESP.
And then in the 40s, another guy coined the term Psy, and Psy is a Greek letter, and it's equated with psyche or the soul.
And the reason that the guy chose psi is because he felt ESP suggested it was something supernatural.
And psi, he felt, suggested that this is a normal part of humanity.
We just don't understand it.
It sounds like science.
But there are several categories of ESP.
And this is the one I never knew the actual definitions for these.
I sort of just threw them all in a bag together.
You have telepathy, and that's when you're over there reading my thoughts.
Like Chuck is really not happy to be in the new studio.
He'd rather be at home on the couch.
I'm reading your thoughts right now, and I know that you like this place.
Well, you're a telepath.
Clairvoyance, which is the ability to see events or things, objects, happening somewhere else at the same time.
So are you clairvoyant?
I'm seeing your couch right now, and I'm seeing it's not that comfy.
So you're not missing that much at the moment.
I know somewhere Jonathan Strickland is waxing his head.
That's just a logical assumption.
Then we have our precogs, precognition.
That's when you see into the future.
Retrocogs, retrocognition, you can see into the distant past.
That's a widely accepted definition of retrocognition.
Like seeing, you know, a cave... Like Tuk-Tuk running around with the dinosaurs like you do.
Which I guess never would have happened.
But there's another term for retrocognition, whereas...
Something in the future affects something in the past.
So a decision you make in the future affects your past.
An example given is that you have a dream about a dinosaur.
Let's say a spotted dog.
And then the first thing the next morning you go outside to water your lawn and the same spotted dog or a similar spotted dog walks by.
The idea isn't that that was very coincidental or that you had ESP in your dreams, but that you seeing that dog in the morning affected your dream the night before.
So that's another definition that's emerging for retrocognition.
That's getting a lot of traction because of the stuff we're finding on the quantum scale.
Just weirdness like that.
All right, then you have your mediumship, and that's Miss Cleo, who can channel dead spirits.
Yeah, I forgot about her.
I wonder how much money that woman grossed in the 90s.
She made a lot of dough.
I mean, she was working hard.
She had a finite window of opportunity, and she worked that whole time.
She didn't buy a sailboat and sail around the world after her first million.
So you're not in the camp of she's taking people's money and taking advantage of people.
I also see if people want to spend their money on that and they get something out of it, knock yourself out.
And then you have psychometry, which is the ability to read info about a person, place by touching information.
The person or object.
And that's what I like to call the dead zone.
Christopher Walken, he would place his hands on you and he would see something.
Man, I think we talked about it recently about how that movie holds up still.
It's such a good movie.
Yeah, it really is good.
There's another one, Chuck, called telekinesis, which is like Uri Geller stroking a spoon and it bending.
Like being able to manipulate matter just using a light touch of your mind.
But there is no spoon.
Yeah, wasn't that from Matrix?
All right, so basically, like you said, J.B.
Ryan is the granddaddy of all this, and he actually started studying.
I mean, he was a legitimate scientist.
He wasn't some quack.
And this was in the 1930s, where he started at Duke University studying...
parapsychology, basically.
And he wasn't the first.
He was one of the first laboratory experimenters in academia to really study psi, right?
Before him, probably about 40 or so years before him, William James and some of his pals at the Society for Psychical Research really laid the groundwork for applying the scientific method to the study of paranormal phenomenon.
And they did two things.
outed frauds, like fraudulent mediums, like very famously Madame Blavatsky.
But then they also investigated ones like they approached them typically with like an open mind.
And if they found somebody that they just couldn't explain, they studied them.
So they were studying each one with an open mind, and the ones they figured out were frauds, they outed as frauds.
The ones they figured out or couldn't quite explain, they sought to investigate scientifically rather than just saying, oh, they're a fraud somehow.
So that was the groundwork of the study of Psy.
What was Madame Blavatsky's deal of the Coney Island Blavatsky's?
She was... She actually... She was almost a cult leader.
You could argue she was.
She created... Oh, man.
It's called, like, Theodism, I think.
It was almost a cult.
It was a huge movement in the 19th century where like you go to like a seance and there was a medium there and they would channel like the spirits of the dead, relatives of people who were there holding hands in the circle and stuff like that.
And she gained a lot of power and wealth and prestige until she was outed as a fraud.
And I don't remember the – it's theosophy.
That's what it is, not theoism.
Theo-ism has to do with Theo Huxtable.
Did you see The Source Family, by the way?
I saw the icon on Netflix and never clicked.
And it's awesome, actually.
I recommend everyone see it.
It's one of those where they interview a lot of them today and...
They weren't like, you know, they didn't commit suicide.
Like, everyone was like, it was pretty great.
Yeah, they're all fine.
They're all just a bunch of hippies still.
They were out in L.A.?
Yeah, yeah, right in Hollywood.
There was one in, there was a documentary I saw about a cult in Miami.
And they were, like, super fundamentalist Christian.
But they also were, the basis of their religion was formed on pot, too.
Well, that's what the source family was.
I wonder if they were related.
Well, it was the 70s.
There were a lot of pot cults, I bet.
But did they turn into huge pot dealers?
No, I don't think so.
They had a band, though.
You know, I can't remember the name of the band, but it's pretty interesting to listen to.
It's a really good documentary, though.
It's just funny to see all these people now.
They're like, it was awesome.
Had a lot of sex and smoked a lot of weed.
Yeah, that's kind of what this one did, too.
These guys didn't seem to have a lot of sex, though.
They were, like, real, like, compartmentalized gender-wise.
And, like, male dominance and all that.
But they just smoked a ton of pot all the time, including their little kids.
Oh, well, that's not good.
Like four-year-olds smoking pot.
It was in the documentary.
I don't remember what it's called.
I lost everybody there in that documentary.
All right, so back to this ESP thing.
Well, basically, there's a lot of different outlooks on what ESP might be.
Some people think that everyone's got it, but some people, it just pops up every now and then.
Like, I might have a dream that comes true or whatever.
Other people think that only certain people have it, the gift, as they say.
And that they have to be in this special, like, you know, mental state to access it.
the shitting and then other folks say that everyone has that potential but um some people are just like in tune with it and some people aren't right and you fall into none of those three camps yes um so we'll talk a little more about um some ideas of what esp is right after this
So, Chuck, you said that basically how people see ESP is either everyone has it, some people have it, or no one has it, basically, whether you're a skeptic or a believer.
If you are a believer in ESP and somebody comes to you and says, okay, explain ESP.
There's actually a couple of very common suggestions or proposals.
One made sense for a while before we knew a little more about the brain.
And that was that ESP was some form or fashion of the electromagnetic spectrum that we were receiving information from outside of our usual senses.
Yeah, and like you said, it fell out of favor because...
Basically, it didn't explain anything about how it moves through time or you didn't pick up on some special part of your brain that like receives this message.
And there was a – did you see that study I sent you that was I think from 2010 where they put people in an MRI and then showed them –
different pictures or whatever.
And they did, they showed, like, I put you in the wonder machine.
And now I'm showing you a picture of the flower.
It's lovely, except it sounds like a German rave.
But that would be the non-ESP stimuli, the control group.
To test ESP and to see if the brain reacted differently and then to see if there was a part of the brain that's picking up on ESP, I would show you the flower.
And then in the other room, I would also show Emily that flower.
And have her think about it.
And send you the thought of that flower.
So you're getting ESP stimuli and then non-ESP stimuli.
And from the MRI, they showed that the brain didn't react differently.
So it suggests that there isn't a sensory organ or region of the brain that's responsible for picking up ESP, which doesn't...
debunk the possibility of ESP, it just undermines the idea that there's a region of our brain that would be responsible for picking that up.
Plus, if Emily's over there, my first guess is going to be dog every time.
Well, it wasn't about guessing.
It was just to see, like, showing you the ESP version and then the non-ESP version of the same thing.
So you weren't guessing.
I would have guessed dog or wine.
There wasn't guessing.
I still would have guessed.
Emily thinks she has the gift a little bit, so she would have been disappointed.
Yeah, a little, she thinks.
But I think she's just super observant and intuitive.
Well, that's definitely one explanation for it.
Yeah, which we'll get to, of course.
So these days, there are other theories, one of which is that it's called spillover, that there's basically another...
dimension that we that doesn't you know have our laws here and our dimension yeah and that sometimes stuff just sort of spills over from that and we see uh the future or the past yeah and if you're a skeptic you probably just pulled a decent sized clump of your hair out of the side of your head at that one yeah because this is something you can't prove obviously it's like completely um
And, of course, they'll say it exactly.
Yeah, and I think I got the impression from this article that they were making that point, like science is just chasing its tail and trying to explain ESP because it's not currently capable.
And science goes, it doesn't work like that.
At least with the electromagnetic spectrum explanation, it was pointing to something that we already know exists, right?
It's just that there's no way to show that we would be getting – how we would be getting information from it.
Because the electromagnetic explanation, it basically says –
If you compare it to other findings from ESP, it makes even less sense.
Because with ESP, one of the hallmarks of it is that no matter whether you're out there outside of the studio thinking about wine or a dog or something, and I'm picking up on it, or if you're in China and I'm here...
and we're doing the same thing, the signal doesn't weaken at all.
Yeah, and that just flies in the face of all we know about electromagnetic waves.
So there's a lot of things wrong with the proposals of what ESP is.
Yeah, but the reason why people still believe in this stuff is because of either hearing a story about their friend who said, listen to this crazy thing happen, or experiencing it themselves in some way.
way or another, having a dream that something similar happened, and all of a sudden you're like, hmm, I might have the gift.
Or it popped up in me, you know, briefly, at least.
And there's a, I mean, there's a lot of evidence of strange and unusual...
occurrences that support the idea of ESP.
This article gives a really good one about an 1898 book called Futility that was written by a guy named Morgan Robertson, right?
And in it, the guy details this boat called the Titan.
Which is sailing across the Atlantic and hits an iceberg at night and sinks, and a bunch of people die because there weren't enough lifeboats.
This is 1898, and if that sounds familiar, the Titanic did the same exact thing.
The Titanic, not the Titan, did the same exact thing 14 years later.
Yeah, there are a bunch of similarities.
The Titan struck an iceberg in the book on the starboard side on an April night in the North Atlantic off the coast of Newfoundland, and the real Titanic struck an iceberg on the starboard side in April in the North Atlantic off the coast of Newfoundland.
On a starless night?
I don't know about that.
They were both said to be unsinkable.
More than half of the passengers of the Titanic perished and more than half of the passengers and crew on the Titan perished.
So there's all these things in there, but you do a little more digging and you realize
find out that Robertson was a seaman and he knew a bunch of this stuff and it's not unreasonable to think at the time they wanted to build the biggest ships and the word Titan would be a great name back then for a super big ship and that sailing route was a common one and there were icebergs and April might have been a common month for that kind of
So all of it can be explained away kind of.
But it is definitely something you look at and go, ooh, interesting.
It is interesting, and it's an amazing coincidence, and it focuses the attention and captures the imagination.
But then, yeah, once you hear about Robertson's background, it becomes slightly less impressive.
So then kind of to –
over the years that little kernel got erased and added to it was that this idea for this book came to him in a trance, which bolsters the ESP thing.
Yeah, is that true or has that just been added?
I'm sure it was added over the years.
Which is a big problem with this kind of anecdotal evidence is that, you know, it gets embellished and there's flourishes added.
And it's just, it's not enough that this is a really interesting, unique circumstance or coincidence or whatever.
There has to be this extra layer of proof like it came to him in a trance.
He did some, like I said, in the 1930s, he started studying this stuff.
With one of my favorite inventions by his colleague, Carl Zinner.
Of course, if you've seen Ghostbusters, he was using a version of Zinner cards.
The shapes weren't all exact.
I think there was one that was different.
in Ghostbusters, but the original Zinner cards were, it was a deck of 25 plain white cards with, each of them had one of five symbols, a circle, a plus sign, a square, a star, five-pointed star, and the three wavy lines.
Like water, a river.
Is that what that is?
And the idea is that just like in Ghostbusters, you hold it up and ask the, you know, not showing them the card, obviously, not the symbol, and say, what do you see?
And they say what they see, and then you record after the deck how many they got right.
Right, but the person holding the card is supposed to be thinking about what they're seeing.
So that the other person, the target, the receiver, can pick it up.
telepathically yeah and I did they have these online I took the test yesterday and I went through the 25 deck and I only got 6 out of 25 and at the end it just said
You are not a psychic.
Yeah, I thought it was kind of funny.
Statistically speaking, for just one trial, that is more than chance.
You did better than chance, so maybe you do have a touch.
Six of what would chance be, I guess?
Chance would be if there's five different ones.
And so this was six of 24 would be... Is it...
No, that's... No, no, no.
So 5 of 25 would be Chance.
Well, and I think like...
three of the first eight or so, or six I got, and I was like, oh, I've got the gift.
But I didn't know, like, it's randomly generated, so it's not like someone was on the other side thinking of that card.
So I literally, I was like, what do I do?
I was like, I'm just guessing.
So that brings up some interesting stuff.
Like, there's evidence that when a machine is involved, there is no telepathy.
There would only be clairvoyance.
right yeah so i mean if if telepathy is you picking up what's in someone else's mind and the computer is mindless then you shouldn't be able what you were saying like you should it shouldn't you should not be able to know what zener card it's going to pick next right
But there have been investigations using computers and using machines that show above chance that there is some sort of weird interaction.
Like random number generators?
So Princeton University has a department called the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research Department, PAIR, right?
And PAIR has been doing studies for a couple of decades.
They've done millions of trials.
And basically they'll say this is a random number generator or this machine operates randomly or whatever.
We want you to think of a number, and we want to see if you can influence the numbers that this computer spits out.
Oh, so you're thinking of the number, then you're, okay, that makes sense.
Like the human is trying to affect the output, the behavior of the computer.
Of course, if you're sitting across the room or in another room thinking about a number that a random generator should put out.
It should have zero effect whatsoever.
Yeah, it's a computer.
The weird thing is, is what Princeton has found, is that, yes, over enough trials, there is a slight, very slight, but measurable effect that human thought has on a random number generator.
It's on Princeton's website.
This is stuff that, like, is apparently accepted in the scientific community, that the trials that they are running...
are so widespread in so repeatable and have been done so many times that the data that they're coming up with this is its significant well Ryan with his inner card experiments in the thirties did find that some people I'm
got what they thought were pretty impressive results, like a few, I can't remember their names.
What was his percentage?
He had one where he got, remember how you got three in a row and you were like, oh, my God.
He got 25 in a row once.
He was also documented as selecting 558 correct out of 1,850, which is the odds of that happening by chance were 22 billion to one.
Now, were these the early experiments?
Okay, because I did read that, and this seems like, I can't believe he didn't check this, but apparently the early cards were a little translucent.
Yeah, some of them were, and then he corrected for that, and the percentages went down.
And then they, I know other scientists said that you are somehow influencing with your body tell.
Basically, you don't have a good enough poker face.
Yeah, in the earliest Ryan experiments with the Zenner cards, he would hold the card up, and he'd be making eye contact.
right the guy yeah the guesser would be like is it the wavy line yeah he starts shaking his head almost imperceptibly um but he uh he that's called sensory leakage where you the person who is um holding the card knows what the card is somehow there's some
detail about your face that when you do a thousand trials with somebody yeah they start to pick up on and it affects their guests it influences their guests so to um correct for that to control for that what's it called a sensory leakage gross isn't that gross yeah um they they came up with something called the gansfield experiment ah yes there's a german gansfeld right
that means whole field in German, and that is when they started putting people, they would start depriving their other senses, basically.
They would be in a dimly lit room with red lighting, and they would have white noise, and they would have their eyes covered with these special glasses.
Or ping pong balls cut in half, like Kermit the Frog.
I guess later on they said, we should just make some glasses.
We've got the funding.
So basically the idea was let's rule out any of that gross sensory leakage.
Right, which smells.
So, yeah, apparently later on in Ryan's experiments, after he started controlling for stuff, the percentages started to drop of correct guesses.
Yeah, and he got sad.
He's generally a respected researcher for a couple of reasons.
One, whenever evidence of some sort of bias or fraud or something was brought to him, he corrected for it.
Yeah, he wore glasses and a white coat.
Right, that was another one.
But also he was daring enough to stake his entire career on a field of study that will get anybody mocked.
Publicly, privately can really shut down a lot of opportunities for you.
This guy and his wife, Louisa Ryan, both dedicated their careers to establishing the field of parapsychology and really studying it rather than just walking away from it.
Yeah, I don't think he was like, I really want to prove this is true, was he?
That was a huge criticism of him.
He was a definite believer.
He was quoted by... I don't know what the guy's deal was, but one day he was visited by one person, and the interviewer who went on to write a paper, I think, in Scientific American to expose him, he said he kept a file of people, of the results of tests, where...
people he suspected were purposefully getting things wrong because they didn't like him to mess with his data.
He just took those and never published them.
He didn't include them in the results, which would definitely affect the number of correct hits, right?
That was a huge criticism.
That's not good science at all.
But he was definitely a believer, which was another criticism of him.
But he was daring, and he did.
There was another story where it's called The Levy Affair.
where a guy named Levy, who was an electrical engineer working in the lab, unplugged, I guess, a sensor that would correct negative hits for a little while during a trial so that all that were recorded for a little bit were positive hits.
And then he plugged it back in.
Well, this one guy saw what the guy was doing and went to Ryan, and Ryan went to the guy, Levy, and said, did you do this?
He's like, you're fired.
and just like threw the results away and all that so he wasn't like he was a true believer but he wasn't just some like outright fraud right right but he was and still is under the microscope as much as probably any researcher in all of academia ever has been all right well right after this break we'll talk a little bit about what skeptics say about ESB
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All right, Josh, one thing you'll hear skeptics say a lot is extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
And I have to agree with them.
And it is an extraordinary claim here.
And so far there hasn't been extraordinary evidence.
And one of the things I pointed to earlier that I think is what's going on, if you look at statistics, you look at 6 billion people on planet Earth and them thinking a gazillion things each day,
And that is scientific, by the way.
At some point, somebody is going to think something that mirrors something that happens in the near future, and it's just chance and coincidence.
I have a great example of that, man.
It happened this very morning.
I was at the printer.
You know, we just moved offices.
And I was at the printer, and I had, like, an extra piece of paper that I didn't need, and I realized, like, we have no paper recycling here.
So on my way back – Not yet, that is.
Everyone out there is like, what kind of office would not have recycling?
We just said we have a 55-gallon drum that we throw stuff into.
Yeah, and then we send it out to sea.
We have a burning drum.
That's what it's called.
No, we're getting those soon.
Right, and we are getting them soon.
I know this because on my way back to my desk, I popped into Izzy, the IT guy who's also the head of all recycling and stuff here.
I was like, Izzy, we need paper recycling bins by the printer.
And he goes, I'm writing an email right now to everybody about that very thing.
You almost did your Izzy impression.
Um, and so like I thought about it.
That's pretty amazing.
You know, but it was about nine in the morning and this is a company wide email.
So it'd be something that Izzy would probably knock out about that time.
The reason I was thinking of is cause I was just at the printer.
We just moved into this office, and we didn't have bins yet, so it was still a potential thing for somebody to be thinking about or doing or writing an email about.
And so there's all these different really overlooked variables or factors to this whole thing that you don't think of.
Instead, it just seems like an amazing coincidence or ESP.
To me, the really significant thing was that I happened to be researching ESP while this happened.
That's what really kind of stood out to me.
But if you really kind of look at it like there's a finite amount of things that people could think about in any given day, in any given context, in an office or something like that.
Like had I been a goat at a petting zoo and I went over and talked to the cow and the cow was writing the email about recycling bins.
But we're in an office.
I'm talking to the guy about recycling bins.
There's just a lot of stuff that you kind of, once you take that into account, it becomes less amazing.
Like the guy writing the Titan, Titanic book.
Yeah, you know what used to happen to me now that I think of it?
I used to, and it's weird, it was only with phone landlines.
It hadn't happened with a cell phone.
But I used to know the phone was going to ring right before it rang.
Like almost go to reach for it.
I mean, it's not like it happened all the time, but it happened enough times where I was like, huh, that's weird.
I know what you're talking about.
But that was all it was to me.
I was not like, I have the gift.
But think about it in that respect, too.
You know 15, 20 people.
So was it you knew who was calling or just that the phone was about to ring?
No, just that it was about to ring.
Oh, yeah, that is weird.
You definitely do have ESP.
Or maybe, I don't know, maybe the phone made a little tick noise right before it rang that I didn't pick up on, but only subconsciously, you know.
Well, that's another explanation for it.
There is subliminal stuff in the environment that is just too weak in nature for us to pick up on consciously, but our unconscious does or subconscious does, which frankly opens up a whole other can of worms as far as how real is that kind of thing.
But probably a little closer to reality is the idea that our attention isn't focused on everything that we're picking up at all times.
Like I see your beard and I see your shirt and everything, but I'm still also picking up like sensory information from like Jerry's computer that I can see in my peripheral vision or whatever.
My attention isn't focused on it, but my brain is still receiving information.
So the idea that our brains can put it together, all this information that we're not aware consciously that we're receiving.
but we're still getting impressions from it, that could be a great explanation for ESP as well.
Yeah, and you know what?
Now that I think about it, the fact that it's never happened with my cell phone sort of makes sense because maybe it was a mechanical function, a landline ringing.
Yeah, like you said, a click or a tick, but I think you meant like a click.
And it wasn't even the newer model.
This was back in the day when it was like a ringing bell.
So maybe that does explain it.
I've got another good example that I came across in researching this.
Let's say that you and I are hanging out.
And you're humming, baby, I'm a firework, right?
Just over and over again.
I don't know that song.
But I'm reading... Yes, you do.
I don't know Katy Perry.
Although I will have to say I did love that halftime show.
Well, it was hysterical.
What's up with the sharks being a meme now?
I didn't think they were really significant.
Did she look like she worked at Corndog on a Stick?
I don't know what that is.
I thought all corndogs were on sticks.
No, it's that place in the – or Hot Dog on a Stick maybe it was called.
That place in the mall where they wore those.
Big, giant, pinwheel-colored cat.
No, I don't know anything about Katy Perry, but it was the funniest, most, like, the crazy just kept coming and coming and coming.
And I was like, this is the best thing I've ever seen.
So, in this universe, you're well aware of Katy Perry and her song Firework, and you're humming it to yourself.
But I'm sitting there reading The New Yorker, and I'm engrossed in it.
And I don't notice that.
You get up to go make some nachos, and you come back in, and you catch my attention because you're coming back in with some nachos, and they smell awesome.
And now my attention is directed to you, and you're still humming firework, right?
I was just thinking about that song Firework.
I had that in my head.
We must be connected.
I didn't realize that you had been humming it earlier.
And beneath my awareness, I picked it up.
Although once I became aware that you were humming it, it seemed to me like I had ESP.
Well, yeah, and that ties into another explanation is that people who do seem to have that gift are just really, really hyper observant.
on minute details, like the same people that can pick up on microexpressions, they might feel like they have the gift because they're just really in tune to what's going on around them and not just, you know, like a big lunkhead walking around.
So a lot of people who believe in ESP say, yes, we agree with that, especially parapsychology researchers.
And there are still plenty of respected ones out there.
There's a guy named Daryl Bemm.
Yeah, I saw that thing you sent.
He's been doing this for a while now.
We should talk about him.
But to button up that point, there is a lot of parapsychologists or even just plain old psychologists who are researching ESP who say, yes, that definitely most likely accounts for almost all of it.
And that's good for us to be thinking about that.
And that in and of itself deserves like academic inquiry and research, right?
But there are still some experiments that are being produced by guys like Darryl Bem that are showing some weird results that go beyond this kind of explanation.
Yeah, and one of the problems, well, we'll talk about the problems with even this research, about it being reproducible in a second, but he did a couple of experiments.
Yeah, Krolwich wrote this.
Yeah, from Radiolab.
These are the two that he pointed out.
He did nine different experiments, but the two that he highlighted was at Cornell, which is where BIM does his work, right?
Yeah, and he's, again, a very respected psychologist.
And this study of these experiments was published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, which is a respected journal.
So the first one was a computer quiz.
They took 100 students, 50 males and 50 women.
And basically they showed a computer screen with two little curtains on it side by side and said behind one is nothing, a brick wall.
And behind the other is something sexy.
Some kind of, you know, I was about to call it pornographic, but who knows, maybe it's art.
Does that just make you feel like your dad's saying it or something?
Yeah, well, this room's too small for you to say this.
So basically he would say, you tell me what you think you're going to see.
And they were all hooked up to machines to read what's going on in their body, of course.
And you would think it would be a 50-50 result, but they actually got a 53.1% result for what Krolwich calls erotic stimuli.
And basically they...
they think, or at least that's what Bim thinks, is that
One possibility is if they think they're going to see something erotically stimulating, then it got passed back through time.
Yeah, that's kind of his position is that retrocognition thing.
That somehow their future selves who saw the erotic image was stimulated enough that that stimulation traveled backwards three seconds and influenced their choice.
Because they would be slightly stimulated physiologically, right, before they guessed.
And he said before the computer even chose which one to show.
They were making their choices often correct before the computer chose to show an erotic or non-erotic image.
And 53%—it doesn't sound like much, but Krolwich points out a couple of things.
One, that when there was a control group that was shown just non-erotic pictures, they did 49.8% correct, which is chance.
And they were all not happy.
They're like, I don't want to be the control.
They're like, can we get a little steamier in here?
And he also pointed out that 53%, 53.1 to be specific, doesn't sound like much, but apparently that's a 0.2% chance where on a scale between 0 and 1, where 0 is it's not going to happen and 1 is that it's definitely going to happen.
And apparently as far as correlation goes or links between two things, something affecting another, a 0.2 is about the same as the link between aspirin and heart attack prevention, the link between calcium intake and bone mass, the link between secondhand smoke and lung cancer.
So things that are touted is like pay attention to this.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So stuff that we accept is like, yeah, if you're around secondhand smoke, you can get cancer from that.
But this is probably poo-pooed.
And later on, a meta-analysis of BEMS experiments, some other experiments that were carried out afterward, and then some other experiments all grouped together, a meta-analysis showed that they weren't
And it wasn't statistically significant if you took all of the existing body of literature of these experiments.
But it was a New Scientist article, and it was pretty cool.
In the comment section, somebody said, yeah, it's not reproducible, but...
A lot of science isn't reproducible, and it reminded me of our scientific method episode where apparently a lot of trials that pharmaceuticals are based on aren't reproducible.
Wasn't it like 50% of them or something like that?
Yeah, which doesn't surprise me, of course.
All right, and then there was this other experiment that I need you to explain to me because I didn't understand it.
Like, I got the first part, but it didn't make sense to me.
Because it's a little mind-blowing.
So you know how, like, if you are studying something and you write it down, it gets in your brain a little more?
So that when you're tested on it later, you will recall it more easily, right?
Yeah, that's a common study method, write something down.
Okay, so Bem carried out a very simple experiment that did the opposite of that.
First, he showed some people a bunch of words, 48 random words, I think nouns like tree or something like that.
Yeah, and he told them to visualize it though, right?
Right, so they saw all 48 words and thought about them.
Not visualize the letters, but visualize the thing.
Like see the tree in your head.
Yeah, just to kind of try to memorize all 48 words.
Then the computer randomly selected 24 of those words.
And then after they'd done that, BEM gave them a test of recall to see how many they recalled, right?
So the people had to type out the words they recalled.
Then after that, the computer randomly selected 24 of the 48 words for the people to type after they'd already taken the test of recall.
And those 24 words are the ones that people more consistently got right on the earlier test.
So it's another example of that retrocognition, that these people getting the words in their heads after the test somehow went backward and influenced their recall and memory for the test that they took before they learned them.
That makes more sense.
Yeah, it is a little.
But, see, time travel melts my brain, too.
So this guy published this stuff in, like, 2010.
And, like, it made a huge, huge splash, huge criticism.
The academic journal was criticized, and Ben was, you know, pilloried and all that.
But he still, you know, put out these very reproducible, understandable, simple exercises that still showed, statistically speaking, there were some significant results that went beyond chance.
So when it comes to debunking ESP, one thing that you're not going to, you know, you said fraud, you're not going to see a lot of people call researchers outright frauds because that's just sort of a dangerous thing to say.
But there are people out there who I guess are criticized for, you know, basically trying to call out, and this is something completely different, but these onstage psychic shows.
Like Crossing Over with John Edwards.
Yeah, like it's easy to pick those people out and say you're a big fraud and this is not true, of course, and all you're doing is cold reading.
Cold reading we talked about in the animal pet psychics episode.
That's basically when you get up on stage and you say, sir, I'm sensing...
Someone, you're having some trouble with another man in your life with the name of J or is it H or O?
Maybe P. Or maybe it's P. Yes, P, my boss.
And that's all a cold reading is, is throwing out these really broad things that anyone can latch on to.
So it's really easy to call those people out.
um sort of a guy famous for doing that his name is um james randy and he's famous for his offer of one million dollars right to anyone that can prove their psychic ability which of course no one stepped up to do that but then he gets poo-pooed a little bit like you're just making a mockery of
trying to legitimately disprove something.
And mockery is absolutely the right word.
And to me, the presence of mockery indicates the absence of objectivity.
So, like, what you're dealing with then with a guy like that is a set of beliefs, a belief system running up against another belief system.
Just like a couple of religions or something like that.
It's not objectivity against fraud or anything like that.
It's belief against belief or something.
And, yeah, the idea of lumping together John Edwards with Daryl Bem is just – that's fraudulent in and of itself.
Yeah, that's just – they call that theatrics just like the onstage theatrics of a stage psychic.
And I totally agree.
I think there's a definite room for healthy scientific inquiry into just about anything, whether –
Skeptics believe in it or not.
If you can get some funding for it, who cares?
You got anything else on ESP?
I've got one more thing I found.
I came across a 1995 Nightline with Ted Koppel where the news broke that the CIA had been studying ESP and trying to do remote viewing, what Ronson was talking about in The Men Who Stare at Goats.
Oh, yeah, John Ronson.
When it finally became declassified in 1995, Ted Koppel did like a 20-minute Nightline segment on it.
Totally worth watching.
It's some pretty softball questions, but Robert Gates, who would later become the head of defense, he's on there just basically trying as politely as possible to show that he does not believe in any of this, even though he was the former CIA director.
Plus you get to watch Koppel again.
He was great news, man.
Yeah, I miss those dudes.
I was just thinking yesterday about Brokaw.
I was always a Brokaw man.
I liked Peter Jennings.
All of them were great.
I don't even have any idea who does Nightly News now.
I don't watch it anymore.
It was Brian Williams until about a day ago.
He, like, got... I know the whole kerfuffle, but he didn't get fired for that, did he?
I'm using my ESP to predict that by the time this comes out, he will not be there anymore.
I think this is getting big quick.
Yeah, Twitter's involved.
The Twitter takedown.
If you want to know more about ESP, the Internet was virtually set up for you to go find out more about it.
You can start by typing ESP in the search bar at HowStuffWorks.com.
Since I said that, it's time for Listener Mail.
Yeah, before we do Listener Mail, I just want to give a quick shout-out to my buddy Isaac McNary.
If you remember, I did a Judge John Hodgman episode with Emily in which I did a bad home renovation.
And this dude, Stuff You Should Know listener from Kansas, Carpenter, Master Carpenter, said, Hey, man, I'll come and stay with you and help you do your project there right.
And I said, This sounds crazy.
And he actually came and did it.
And it looks awesome.
And he's a super cool guy.
And if you're in Kansas, near El Dorado, Kansas...
There's no better guy to hire.
The fabled city of El Dorado, Kansas?
It's El Dorado, actually.
But not only is he a great carpenter and a cool guy, but he works with a nonprofit called Outreach Program, and you can find it at outreachprogram.org, where they're basically feeding the world.
They package food, and they get people together in a room and package these mass quantities of food to send
to other countries and feed the hungry.
And he's just a really good dude.
So thanks to Isaac for that.
And my kitchen is looking good.
So again, for his nonprofit, that is outreachprogram.org.
And if you need a great carpenter and you're in Kansas, check out Retrofit Remodeling.
All right, listener mail.
I'm going to call this pronunciation help.
Hey, guys, I'm a botanist and just wanted to throw you a rope to help you out with pronouncing plant family names.
All plant family names end in A-C-E-A-E.
I thought I got that wrong.
It is a mess of vowels, guys.
When you read it, you should just imagine you are spelling A-C-E as in A-C-E.
So when you read a plant family name, just break off the A-C-E and read the first part and then spell A-C-E.
So the plant family for poison oak is Anacardia C-E.
So it's just Anacardia C-E.
I remember it by imagining the aneurysm and cardiac arrest I would have if I fell into it.
Well, she spelled out Anacardi.
The first two first letters from each of those words.
Anyway, guys, I love your podcast.
Find it endearing when you two puzzle out on pronunciations.
That's good to know.
So, love you bunches.
And that is from Jane.
In Europe, they pronounce plant families completely differently.
Other parts of the U.S.
Other parts of the U.S.
might have other conventions, but the above pronunciation is standard in California.
If you want to let us know something that we should have known before we even recorded, but you're generous enough with your time and effort to correct us, I guess is a way to put it.
That was very helpful.
If you want to be like Jane, in other words, you can send us an email to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.
Put another way, are you high?
You might know me as that guy from Twin Peaks, Sex and the City, or just The Internet Stand.
I have a new podcast called What Are We Even Doing?
where I embark on a noble quest to understand the brilliant chaos of youth culture.
Each week, I invite someone fascinating to join me to talk about navigating this high-speed rollercoaster we call reality.
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Hey, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and this is Stuff You Should Know, the adult contemporary edition.
Yeah, did you remember that's what the VH stood for?
Yeah, and I think they ran that little thing I just did.
I think that was their thing.
I don't know if I just made that up or not, but I feel like that's something that's stuck in my brain from the old days.
Well, yeah, from what this research showed, that's exactly the kind of thing they would have run for like the first 10 years.
And this is on VH1, of course, and it's going to be a great warm-up for the long-awaited Judas Priest show tonight that I'm going to.
Whoa, is that tonight?
I hope you have a bitchin' time.
Yeah, it should be some fun people watching and some good music.
Are you going to smoke PCP in the parking lot like that documentary?
Oh, you know it, baby.
I ordered some PCP online, and it came in a box labeled PCP.
And I opened it up and it said, take two PCPs for best results.
That sounds legit to me.
Yeah, I think I'm all set.
Well, have a great time.
Did you get in touch with Nita Strauss?
She may not be a Stuff You Should Know person anymore.
Well, try waving to her from the audience.
Maybe when you're on PCP, you'll just crawl onto stage.
I'm going to take the recommended two, so who knows what's going to happen.
So we're talking about VH1, which is basically the opposite of PCP.
As everyone knows who's ever seen VH1, especially if you were around when it debuted back in 1985, it's just like the older...
mellower, more, well, again, adult contemporary version of MTV.
And it bears a striking resemblance because it was launched by the same company that launched MTV, that whole Warner Brothers Amex weirdness.
And one of the big reasons they launched VH1 is because they really wanted to put one of their competitors, Ted Turner's cable music channel, in the ground permanently.
Yeah, and I guess this was before, you know, because they eventually bought them out, if you remember from the MTV episode.
I was talking to your listener, but that's okay.
When I address you, I address you as your leader.
So this is before they bought them out clearly because they were essentially saying, hey, cable companies, if you want another music video station, don't go buy Turner's thing.
Just take VH1 for free.
If you're getting MTV, we'll just throw it in.
Before video hits one, it was value add hits one.
And honestly, what got me about researching this was they follow similar paths as far as music videos turned into original programming.
But I dare say that VH1 did a better job and stayed more relevant in the long run.
I mean, you can make a case it's still quite relevant.
It's definitely changed its mission dramatically, but MTV changed its mission as well.
And yeah, it's VH1 still relevant.
There's no better word to put it.
Yeah, I think they ended up having much bigger shows when they started doing their original shows than MTV had.
And as we'll see every once in a while, MTV likes to still poach them because even though VH1 is more relevant, I get the impression that MTV is still more powerful in that company.
Yeah, I'm curious with the dynamic there.
Anyone who works at MTV or VH1, let us know.
But like you said, it started out just a few years later and was, you know, they launched with Marvin Gaye singing the national anthem and then Diana Ross and the very mellower.
Well, I guess you've lost that love and feeling was always mellow.
But I feel like Daryl Hall and John Oates even made it even sort of cornier.
Oh, you want to hear corny?
I was listening to some beautiful music on YouTube this morning as I was studying.
And I heard a instrumental Muzak version of Gordon Lightfoot's Sundown.
And I was like, Chuck would love this one.
Yeah, I probably would have.
Because every time I hear that song, I hear you doing your impression of it, where you're just like mumbling the words.
Boy, that's when Canada turned against me personally.
So, yeah, it was actually a pretty solid lineup.
The fourth video that they showed was John Lennon's Nobody Told Me.
So that's not a bad way to kick off a new video channel.
And I was looking through the rest of the, I think, first 10 or 20 or whatever, and it was just hit after hit.
And the VJs that they had, again, this is the older sibling or maybe even like parent group.
Yeah, like people in their 30s watched VH1.
People that David Bowie clearly said you couldn't trust any longer.
That was who the VJs were.
They were untrustworthy former radio vets like Don Imus.
Yeah, Imus was there, Frankie Crocker, Bowser from Sha Na Na.
Yeah, the best VJ, I think, of all.
There's also a guy named Scott Shannon, who we can thank for creating the Morning Zoo radio show format.
Yeah, I think his headstone, if he's still around, it will eventually say, sorry.
Yeah, and it just has a fart machine that you can press.
That's not a bad idea.
That's really not, actually.
So one of the other things that differentiated VH1 from MTV is that pretty much out of the gate, you can tell from the first two videos, it was much more...
willing to put black artists on its airwaves, right?
Like we talked about MTV being like almost flat out accused of racism by the head of CBS records within a couple of years of its launch.
I don't know if they learned the lesson or if they were just more into music made by black artists than MTV.
But from the outset, there was a place where you could see more black artists for sure.
Yeah, and also a place for comedy.
You know, MTV, we lauded some of the sort of sketch shows and the remote control funny game show, but Rosie O'Donnell actually got her start as a VJ on VH1 in 1985, and a few years later,
The pretty good stand up show Stand Up Spotlight was on.
And this was, you know, three or four years before the comedy channel launch, which would eventually become Comedy Central.
So there wasn't, you know, HBO was doing some stuff, but there wasn't a lot of stand up on television until VH1.
No, but apparently there already was the half-hour comedy hour on MTV, which I had totally forgotten about.
But do you remember that?
Half-hour comedy hour.
And then I guess HBO already still had some stuff, too.
But for the most part, it wasn't crowded at all.
Rosie O'Donnell was an innovator in that sense, for sure.
And then their first sort of big original show.
I mean, Stand Up Spotlight did pretty well.
But My Generation, I remember in 1989 with Peter Noon of Herman's Hermits hosting.
And it was, you know, it was just him DJing and spinning records, but also sort of talking about trivia, kind of like a Turner Classic movies for boomers.
Um, and I was like Herman's Hermits.
I know for a fact, I know that band, but I can't remember what their big hit was.
So I was looking all over YouTube.
I found one of their greatest hits albums and I just had to skip through all the songs.
Never heard that one before.
I don't know who would like this one.
And then it finally got to something tells me I'm into something good.
I knew where your head is.
And I know that one from the romantic montage in Naked Gun.
And that's my Herman's Hermit story.
You know, these videos that they were playing on My Generation, a lot of them were just old sort of when they did promotional videos before the true music video format came out.
But they also played new stuff.
There was plenty of Michael Bolton.
And crossover stuff that also was playing on MTV, the VH1 would, you know, plenty of Rod Stewart, obviously.
Rod Stewart, turns out, was to music videos what Enya is to crossword puzzles.
Like perennial, right?
She just popped up again this week in the crossword.
It just keeps happening.
I love this ride for her.
Yes, that was kind of a problem, though, is because some of these acts were already past their prime when they were showing videos on VH1.
They hadn't made videos.
Their prime came before that whole marketing tool that we talked about in the MTV episode.
So they would have to piece together things like concert footage.
Or like you said, maybe even like TV appearances or something like that and just basically make like an edited version to make a music video for a particular song.
VH1 was kind of hamstrung in a lot of ways right out of the gate.
Yeah, and that's all because Peter Noon demanded it.
Yes, he was quite a tyrant.
You don't even have to know the song Something Tells Me I'm Into Something Good to know that Peter Noon was a tyrant.
Uh, mid nineties, they found themselves floundering a bit though, because they never really got an identity outside of being sort of the, you know, I, you know, if you were an MTV kid, you thought VH1 was kind of boring and it was like stuff your parents might be into kind of a little more square, but, and that's not an identity.
No, I know, but that's not an identity that you want to claim.
So they had like a mishmash of different shows going on.
They had a show called Archives that was just kind of rebroadcasting old TV interviews that they, I guess, had rights to.
And so, you know, they just lacked an identity aside from being square.
And they also had the same pressures that MTV had when with competition coming in.
And so much so that cable operators were like, I don't like I don't want to even though it's free, I don't want it anymore.
So they were trying to get rid of VH1, you know, actively.
I think the biggest cable operator in the country at the time, Telecommunications Inc., they were like, I don't even want this free thing.
Actually, it was a dude named John Sykes who essentially saved VH1.
Also, I heard media executive.
Well, congratulations, John Sykes, because he definitely turned VH1 around.
He was what you would call a good hire.
Because in 1994, they brought him on.
And he so changed VH1 for the better that in 1995, their subscriber base was 49 million households.
Three years later, it was up to 62 million households.
That's what they call the Sykes effect.
And he'd walk out of the room and say, you got psyched.
They started new original music programming and that that was really part of the big rebranding effort that was so successful.
Top 10 countdown in 94, eventually top 20 countdown in.
was sort of the big first one.
But in 1996, they really, really hit it big pop-culturally with a little show called Pop-Up Video.
I remember watching this, and it was one of the things about it.
So Pop-Up Video, if you've never seen it, they would just show music videos, but then there were these little kind of like cartoon word bubbles would pop up with some random fact about the artist, right?
maybe a little trivia, something about music history, or, and this is I think what captured everybody, some sort of juicy little bit of gossip or random weirdness that had to do with that specific video.
And the two guys who were behind it, Woody Thompson and Ted Lowe,
And apparently they got pushback from the parent company because the parent company also owned Blockbuster and they knew from owning Blockbuster foreign films didn't go anywhere because people didn't like subtitles.
So they were like, no one's going to want to read anything.
But they were very wrong because in large part, Thompson and Lowe were good writers.
So this kind of became known for being a much smarter show than you would guess it would be.
Yeah, it was very clever and a huge, huge hit.
I remember watching it.
I don't remember setting my calendar to sit around and make sure I knew when it was on.
But I definitely found myself watching it quite a bit.
Storytellers came out in 1996, which was...
Clearly aimed at the kind of, you know, younger boomer, maybe older Gen X generation, because they just had classic rock artists after classic rock artists in an intimate setting, singing songs, telling stories about the writing of those songs.
Very, very popular show.
And anytime I think of storytellers, I think of the Saturday Night Live skit with Neil Diamond.
I don't think I saw that.
Oh, it was Will Ferrell as Neil Diamond.
And he is just off the rails.
At one point, he says he's on some dynamite pills that his keyboardist Kenny gave him.
And at one point, he said, I will smack you in the mouth.
And it was just bizarre that he made this Neil Diamond character.
But the ironic part of it is Neil Diamond was never on Storytellers.
Well, maybe that's how they got away with it.
It's worth going back and seeing, man.
It's an all-time great sketch.
Better than Robert Goulet?
A hundred times, maybe.
Legends was another big show that came out that same year in 1996.
This was just straight up rock doc stuff.
Pretty, you know, straightforward one hour documentary style.
Again, you know, artists like Bowie and Aretha Franklin and, you know, The Clash was in there.
I mean, you know, still aimed at that audience.
They knew what their bread and butter was, but they started making kind of good shows to support it.
Yeah, and one reason that John Sykes kind of brought it back to music videos and then made all this original music programming is the boomers to start, and then eventually Gen X followed in their footsteps, they kept buying new music.
Like they kept listening to music into their 30s and 40s.
Previous generations hadn't done that.
Like apparently you were done with music when you turned 30 because life sucked and it was serious and you were in black and white.
And if you were a woman, you wore an apron all day.
If you were a man, you just drank scotch all day.
You just didn't listen to music after a certain point and that changed.
So it made sense that you would kind of target those generations because they also had the most pocket money or spending money too.
I mean, new music, that is.
The Mad Men guys listen to the...
whatever Artie Shaw or the whatever orchestra, but there were no guys in the 1950s in their 30s saying like, what's new out there?
What can you turn me on to?
I remember one of the more disappointing moments I've ever had in relation to my father was going through his old record collection and the artist he had the most 45s of was Jackie Gleason somehow.
At least your dad had records.
My dad didn't even listen to music hardly.
Your dad made his own music in his Jeep on a CB.
I had a weird family.
He had a whole convoy soundtrack going.
I think I mentioned he would get obsessed with a song, and that's it.
And he'd say, hey, Scott, go record that like 17 times in a row on a tape for me.
So he could listen to the same song.
Here's your tape of Hot Blooded 17 times.
Uh, 97 was when it really hit the big time with behind the music.
Um, I think Olivia helped us out with this one along with the MTV article and she aptly calls it legends, uh, evil twin because these were one hour documentaries, but they were, it got known very quickly for being very melodramatic and very juicy with like the dirt, uh, the stories about what happened, you know, the real gossipy stuff.
Lurid even, I think, in a lot of ways.
And it ran for a long time.
97 to, I think, 2014.
One of the ones, one of the very famous episodes, but they had a ton of episodes from bands from Megadeth.
To Bette Midler, to Notorious B.I.G.
One of the ones that really kind of infiltrated pop culture, though, was Leif Garrett.
He was like a teen idol in the 70s.
And he was reunited in his behind the music with a friend who had become paralyzed from a car crash that Leif Garrett caused when he was drunk.
And it was very melodramatic and very kind of drippy.
And it just kind of made it out as a meme eventually.
I saw Brian on Family Guy.
They started one of the episodes.
He was just sitting there, I guess, watching behind the music and mouthing along word for word with the dialogue between Leif Garrett and his friend.
Shall we take a break?
I didn't expect that, but you know what?
I love that you surprised me, so sure.
We'll be back to jump back in time a bit and then go forward in time a bit.
That is where the big take from Bloomberg podcast comes in to connect the dots.
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We promised to jump back in time and we have to because 97 was behind the music.
But in 95, VH1 got into the fashion biz as well as MTV had done with Cindy Crawford.
And when they started, they partnered up with Vogue magazine to start hosting annual fashion awards.
And that is well, it's well known because they did a pretty good job with that as far as the ratings go.
But that's also where Derek Zoolander, who we just mentioned, I think, in the MTV episode, he appeared for the first time at the fashion awards.
It was like a pre-taped little bit, one or two minute bit.
But in the movie Zoolander, he faces his greatest public humiliation at the VH1 Fashion Awards.
So they showed up in the movie, which I just watched.
I watched recently and it holds up, man.
It's still pretty funny.
I bet Ruby would like that.
I would definitely show it to her.
It's just her kind of silly, I think.
It is a very silly movie.
97, they launched Save the Music.
John Sykes, he was principal for a day at a school in Brooklyn that had no music program or couldn't get funding.
And that still exists.
So that's sort of a feather in their cap as the Save the Music Foundation.
Yeah, I read that they've donated 2.8 million recorders to schools across the country.
Now, are you kidding?
Are you mocking the recorder?
Hey, if you're a recorder maestro out there, just keep on doing it.
Don't listen to Josh.
No, don't listen to me.
In fact, listen to me for this part.
If you would make us a music bumper for our ad, that would be awesome.
Well, if you can get it, well, it'll be.
I wish we could put the call out before this episode came out so we could put it in this episode.
Yeah, maybe I'll do it on the Instagram page and see what happens.
All right, moving on.
Yeah, apparently Bill Clinton was a big VH1 viewer, and he donated one of his old saxophones to the Save the Music program.
And they also, I guess, in return, made a documentary about him.
Bill Clinton, colon, rock and roll president.
This was 1997, don't forget.
And they also got into the live business with their very, very successful series of Divas concerts.
The first one was in 1998.
I remember this being a very big deal because they got Aretha Franklin, Mariah Carey, Shania Twain, Gloria Estefan, Carole King, and who else?
You can't have a Divas concert in 98 without Celine Dion pounding her chest.
No, that's a murderer's row of Divas.
So even despite all of this reprogramming, very, very successful and popular programming, you could argue that if this wasn't the golden era of VH1, it was certainly one of the golden eras.
Cable operators were still dropping VH1.
I guess they hadn't gotten the news yet, right?
So VH1 kind of organizes something similar to I Want My MTV that MTV had used before it started getting picked up by cable operators.
And they actually staged a protest in Denver because I guess the cable operator there had dropped VH1.
And they got Don Henley and John Mellencamp and Jewel to fly out there and protest.
And I guess en route, they were in the air and the cable operator got word of what was about to happen and they agreed to pick VH1 back up.
They're like, Don Henley's coming.
You don't want to mess with the hen.
You definitely don't want to mess with Don Henley.
They were pretty successful in getting, like you said, all those viewers back in to the delight of ad salespeople because they had that 18 to 49 year old demographic that is so juicy.
And everyone knows those are the people that have all the bucks or at least back then they did.
And so they, you know, they were able to land some big ad dollars as a result and were seemingly thriving.
Yeah, and it didn't hurt that there were plenty of like new artists who were making the kind of music that would make a little more sense on VH1 than say MTV.
Like Natalie Merchant, Celine Dion, as you mentioned, was enormous at this time.
You probably would not see a Celine Dion video on MTV, but she was right at home on VH1.
Yeah, Michael Bolton.
Alanis probably straddled the two.
Same with like the Wallflowers or Goo Goo Dolls or something like that.
And these are real deal.
I watched some VH1 blocks to come up with some examples.
So all of those had videos on VH1, everybody.
That's the kind of research you can expect from stuff you should know.
Yeah, I think like before dad rock was a term that was probably the angle.
I've not heard that before.
So what does it cover?
Dad rock is kind of like I know Wilco gets thrown in there a lot as like, you know, kind of dudes my age that like used to go to all the shows.
But now just so I could get out to Wilco like every year and, you know, that kind of thing.
I saw this meme on Instagram where it's this girl sitting in like a stadium seat and she has a very unhappy look on her face.
And it says anyone over 40 when the third opening band starts to set up at 9 p.m.
It just starts too late.
Shows are starting earlier, though, I feel like.
Like these legacy shows that I'm seeing, all these olds, they're getting up on stage at like, you know, opening band at 7, regular band at 8, out by 9.30, 9.45.
Hey, we start at 7 promptly.
If we ever start later.
Yeah, if we start later than 7, it's the venue itself saying, please let us hold because we're making mad cash at the bar.
Yeah, it's actually the audience's fault.
Because they're like, they're not in yet.
They're just getting here.
There's a lot of traffic.
It's actually traffic's fault.
And some towns are worse for it than others.
Some towns are just like, we know you're not going to start while we're getting liquor.
But like with MTV, they would, you know, start sort of changing things and rebranding.
These are companies that just seemingly changed the channels, not literally, but changed their programming a lot.
And like the names of the channel change a lot.
Like, you know, MTV to MTV2 and MTV Classic and VH1 kind of did the same.
They had VH1 Soul, which is now BET Soul.
VH1 Smooth, which was more like Kenny G kind of stuff.
But then they're like, who wants that?
Let's change that to VH1 Classic Rock and then just VH1 Classic.
And now it's MTV Classic.
It's quite a ride for that channel.
Yeah, VH1 Smooth, I can't believe that ever made it outside of the initial meeting.
So VH1, just like MTV, is like, okay, if we can't hold people's attention from video to video, we got to come up with a different kind of show.
And so they stopped playing videos.
It dropped almost by 50% from 1999 to 2012.
And remember, it had been relaunched in 94 as VH1 Music First, and it just wasn't sustainable at the turn of the millennium, right?
So they started getting into countdown shows.
They figured out how they could keep showing videos.
They just needed to adjust it, put them in a certain kind of package that would hold your attention a little more.
Nothing does that better than a countdown.
And they kicked it off in grand style with the 100 Greatest Artists of Rock and Roll, hosted by none other than Kevin Bacon.
And this kicked off their whole The Greatest Countdowns format, which started in 98, 99, sorry, and ran to 2012.
Yeah, which, you know, I was kind of thinking about it.
They ended up – the last episode was 40 Greatest Pranks Part 4.
So – and I was like, what a weird kind of thing.
But that was right in the middle of the listicle revolution.
That was going on online.
And this is kind of the same version of that because I was like, oh, man, I remember when you and I were –
writers for How Stuff Works back in the day, we were sort of fighting up against that because it seems like that was what the internet became for a period of years was just lists, top 10 lists, lists, lists, lists, lists.
I mean, where do you think our 10 dumb criminals episode came from?
And that's one reason why we don't do a lot of those anymore is because people aren't writing that kind of stuff anymore.
I like to think we changed with the time.
Yeah, plus also they can be kind of thin.
Every once in a while, though, it's a good one.
I can't think of any off the top of my head, but we've done some good top tens.
Yeah, I mean, they're pretty breezy, which I think people enjoy from time to time.
So the luridity kind of really started to show itself a little more with Where Are They Now, a 1999 show that basically said, where are one-hit wonders and former child stars?
What are they doing now?
Let's just peek in on their sad lives and see what's what.
Yeah, they got into movies.
One thing we didn't mention was MTV Films, which had some pretty successful movies that they were putting out.
I think I remember the movie Election from Alexander Payne, one of my favorite movies.
I think that was an MTV film.
But VH1 didn't fare as well on the movie front.
But they did have one sort of noteworthy one called Two of Us.
Which was which was OK.
It was a fictionalized story about when Paul McCartney and John Lennon were hanging out in 1976, the night that Lorne Michaels on SNL on air said that the Beatles come down here, I'll pay you.
It was like a million bucks or something.
I saw three thousand dollars.
Was that what it was?
That's what I saw, which I was like, even in 1976, that wasn't that much money.
I mean, you can watch the clip on YouTube and see him say it with his own mouth.
I just didn't have a chance.
But at any rate, it was a fictionalized version of them hanging out that night, which is supposedly a true story.
That they were going to come down and play on SNL.
Like, it wasn't that far from the Dakota.
Supposedly, they were too stoned.
That's as the story goes, at least.
And by stoned, you mean on heroin, probably.
No, I think they each took two PCPs.
As per the instructions.
So by this time, they finally dropped pretense.
This would be VH1 we're talking about again.
And they just stopped using the music first tagline because it was just a boldface lie at this point.
Pop-up videos ended.
And it was time for a new shakeup because John Sykes had done his work.
And so MTV Networks hired a new guy named Brian Graydon.
And he said, we're going to shift more toward pop culture, right?
We're not even going to show blocks of videos anymore and countdowns.
And he hired a guy named Jeff Old, who was new.
And he became executive vice president for programming and production.
And the thing that Old brought to this whole thing, following the marching orders to make more pop culture relevant shows,
is for, he gave his producers free reign to just, you got an idea, put it on air.
And if it works, awesome.
If it doesn't, whatever.
It's called the agile format of project management where you just do a bunch of stuff.
Some of it fails and you just keep going.
I mean, not a bad idea.
And the other thing about it, too, is that kind of stuff like green lighting, a really easy show idea quickly usually means you can make it very cheaply.
And that was what they did.
They made very, very inexpensive shows that still were very, very popular because the concepts were so good.
And I Love the 80s was the first big, big hit out of that camp that premiered in 2002.
It was not a show I watch much, but it was one that was almost kind of hard to avoid somehow.
I feel like I remember just seeing Michael Ian Black on my screen a lot here and there.
He was one of the comedians.
He was on like a million episodes of it, I think.
Yeah, he did great with that.
But it was comedians and celebrities just sort of, you know, it was like kind of quick clip stuff of them sitting talking head style, talking and reminiscing about whatever the decade was.
So it was a clip show of talking heads and it would frequently end up on TalkSoup, which was a clip show of talking heads.
So TalkSoup would be covering another clip show, but it worked.
Yeah, I enjoyed Talk Soup.
I Love the 80s was based on a BB show that was definitely a little more serious and sort of recounting the decade.
But it was a big hit, again, in the 1849 demographic.
And so they did the I Love the 70s, I Love the 90s.
They did I Love the New Millennium, which only covered through 2007 because it debuted in 2008.
And I think in 2014, I Love the 2000s was the last one in the series that ran.
Another great show was called Best Week Ever and then eventually Best Week Ever with Paula Tompkins.
Because friend of the show and our pal, Paul was the host where they recounted the last week.
And this was a big launching pad for a lot of like great, great comedians.
It was a spinoff from I Love the 80s.
Tompkins was one of the comedians, one of the frequently recurring comedians on that show.
You want me to list out some comedians who started there?
I would love that, Chuck.
And I'm not saying that they were not doing anything, but certainly were not the household names they are now.
Paul Scheer, Doug Benson, Rob Hubel.
A little comedian named John Mulaney, the wonderful Jessica St.
Clair, Michael Shea, Michael Ian Black, Patton Oswalt.
And I was watching some of Best Week Ever this morning.
And Paul's wonderful wife, who we've spoken about, Janie Haddad Tompkins, was in one of the little bits.
And I had no idea Janie was ever on there.
So I took a screenshot and I'm going to text it to her later.
So if it was launched in 2004, those people's careers did start to take off around that time or after that.
So it must have been a huge launching pad for them for sure.
Yeah, it was a fun show.
But it also goes to show you all of those names were pretty much recognizable today.
That also is a testament to just how popular Best Week Ever and I Love the 80s was.
So VH1 was doing a pretty good job shifting away from music, right?
But they still hadn't gotten into what we would call reality yet, right?
And it's about here that you'll notice we stop talking about music pretty much altogether and get into the world of reality TV.
I guess that means a break.
We'll be right back.
That is where the Big Take from Bloomberg podcast comes in to connect the dots.
So, Chuck, we talked about how VH1 is transitioning into reality shows, and they didn't invent reality shows.
They were a really early contributor, and they had a lot of reality shows over the years, still do.
But they came up with the term celeb-reality.
And I did not know this, but so celeb-reality is usually minor celebrities in a reality show, sometimes big celebrities.
But the whole thing that kicked it off, I didn't know this, was Ted Nugent's celebrity reality show, Surviving Nugent.
Yeah, I remember that being on.
But that was, you know, Ted Nugent had people out to do what Ted Nugent does, which is shoot guns and shoot arrows and do things that the Nuge was into.
Yeah, it was like a competition reality show.
And he would have, he was the arbiter of who stayed or went.
And competitions would be like them carrying manure with their bare hands or climbing under an electrified fence.
And it was real enough that at one point, Ted Nugent suffered a chainsaw cut to his leg, self-inflicted, that required 40 stitches.
That's a lot of stitches.
But this was not, so again, this was kind of contemporaneous to the Osbournes, which beat Surviving Nugent by a year in the same time as The Simple Life.
So this was definitely, it was in the air that people wanted to see celebrities acting bizarrely in real life.
And I just made such air quotes that I actually just jammed one of my fingers.
The Surreal Life became a big hit for them after they co-opted it from the WB a couple of years after it debuted.
It was a much bigger hit on VH1.
And that eventually led to maybe, I mean, I don't know, I was about to say unlikely, but maybe not because Flavor Flav has so much charisma and personality.
I was always so into Public Enemy from like high school on.
They were probably my favorite hip hop group of all time.
And so it was a little weird for me all of a sudden to see Flav like doing his thing on a reality show.
But the the Flavor of Love was a tremendous hit.
It was only around for a few years, but it was like it invaded the zeitgeist in a big way.
Yeah, and so he became a reality TV star thanks to The Surreal Life.
I think he was in season three.
And one of the other shows he was on was Strange Love, which followed his relationship with Brigitte Nielsen.
who is a good two feet taller than him, striking blonde, who they fell in love when they met on The Surreal Life.
And they shared quarters with Charo, Dave Coulier, Jordan Knight from New Kids on the Block.
And so that spawned Strange Love and Flavor of Love.
And then Flavor of Love spawned I Love New York, starring Tiffany New York Pollard, who is one of the contestants on Flavor of Love.
Flavor of Love also inspired Rock of Love, which featured Bret Michaels from Poison replacing the Flavor Flav as the Bachelor, right?
Yeah, still the only show like that I've ever watched.
I did watch Rock of Love.
I don't know why I started, but I started and I couldn't stop.
That's the sign of a VH1 reality show right there, buddy.
So whoever was pulling the strings, you know, you know, after the surreal life was on and Flav was on there, there was some there was some guy kind of square in the office.
It was like, who's this guy with a clock?
We got to get him his own show.
It's nuts, but it worked for sure.
There were two other big offshoots from The Surreal Life.
I mean, there were a cavalcade of them, but there were some other big shows that came from it.
One was My Fair Brady, which followed Christopher Knight and Adrian Curry.
Christopher Knight was Peter Brady.
And Adrian Curry and their unlikely relationship, they met on Surreal Life as well.
She was a Playboy model.
And then Salt-N-Pepa had their own show, because I guess they were on The Surreal Life.
They were reuniting, or thinking about reuniting.
I guess Pepa was trying to talk Salt into it.
But Salt had had a religious conversion and was hesitant to take up the hip-hop life again.
Well, it sort of filled a void, as Livia sort of aptly pointed out, that...
You know, there was a big boom for sitcoms about black families in the 90s and even in the early 2000s.
But then there was sort of a dearth of those for a little while.
So this kind of, you know, filled that void.
And VH1 took notice and started sort of delivering content to black America and still do.
And they can take some guff for it sometimes.
In part, I saw it best explained on The Root by Danielle C. Belton.
And she basically says they broadcast for Black Americans, but they're not at all beholden to Black Americans.
So they can do basically whatever they want.
And they very frequently feature stereotypes of Black women.
It's like angry and violent and prone to yelling and stuff like that.
So it's like a mixed bag.
But however you approach it, back in 2014, I didn't see any more recent statistics, but in 2014, VH1 was the number one network in African-American households, followed by BET and the Oprah Winfrey Network.
So they were definitely doing something that black America liked.
They beat Oprah out.
Yeah, that says a lot.
Another show that got them a lot of flack eventually was Celebrity Rehab with Dr. Drew Pinsky.
That premiered in 2008.
There's a critic that Livia found named Kaylee Donaldson called it perhaps the most evil reality TV series of all time.
You probably know Dr. Drew from Loveline with Adam Carolla early on.
And he Dr. Drew is was and is, I guess.
a real therapist and trained at treating addiction.
So he wasn't just some pretty face that they put on TV.
And he claimed that he wanted to make it like a real meaningful show where it was like an antidote to the cruel tabloid depictions of these people that were suffering through addiction.
But he, you know, he also had to deliver an entertaining show.
And those two things could be at odds.
And it got a lot of flack because, like, people started dying from their addictions.
Yeah, by 2024, 12 of, by my count, about 45 rehab patients on the show had died.
A lot of them from, like, overdosing or direct complications from their addictions, like brain aneurysms.
which is a little more than a quarter, which apparently is actually in line with the success rate of traditional rehab.
It's just much, much, much more visible.
But it was also, again, the L word, lurid, to just show people's, you know, low points and rock bottom after rock bottom on TV for money, for ad money, you know?
And speaking of Lurid, we're loathe to mention Diddy, but there was a show called I Want to Work for Diddy in 2008.
And a silver lining of that is that it launched the career of Laverne Cox and also just launched the sort of
normalization of trans people on TV.
A couple of years after that show, Laverne Cox and fellow trans women, Jamie Clayton and Nina Poon, got their own VH1 show called Transform Me.
It's kind of a queer eye for the straight guy kind of thing, but for cis women.
And it was one of the first shows with trans stars.
And you put all this together, and VH1 had its highest Nielsen ratings ever in this era.
The aughts, as we who lived through it call them.
And then tragedy struck, and the publicity was so searingly bad that VH1 essentially threw the company that had been cranking out hit after hit for them under the bus.
And it centered around the murder by a man named Ryan Jenkins, who had been a contestant on not one or had been featured on not one but two VH1 reality shows.
He murdered his wife, Jasmine Fiore.
Yeah, he was a real estate developer.
He was a, you know, they got rich guys to be contestants on a dating show called Megan Wants to Be, or I'm sorry, Megan Wants a Millionaire.
And 51 Minds was the name of this company that was like churning out these shows.
After the show ended,
He married Jasmine Fiore, and he got on I Love Money 3, another VH1 show.
And they said 51 Months is like, hey, in retrospect, I remember this storyline we had.
It was going to revolve around him calling his new wife a lot and seemingly obsessive and jealous and very suspicious.
And he ended up murdering her in August of 2009.
Yeah, it got even worse than that.
He tried to prevent her from being identified.
So he removed her fingers and her teeth.
He put her, folded her up in a suitcase and dumped the suitcase in a dumpster.
And I read that it almost worked, but they identified her.
They had to identify her through the serial numbers on her breast implants.
And so all this comes out, and it's very clear that Ryan Jenkins was to blame.
He hung himself in a motel room, and in his note even, he blames Jasmine Fiore for him killing himself.
It doesn't take any responsibility whatsoever for killing her.
I remember that now.
That wasn't familiar, but as soon as you said that, I kind of remember that storyline.
And all of this happens in one month in 2009.
And if you are pumping out lurid reality show after lurid reality show, your viewership is going to be highly interested in this story.
It's going to get out and it's going to get out to the rest of America is going to make a bunch of noise about how terrible these reality shows are.
And here's evidence of it, because also that Ryan Jenkins guy, it turned out that he had been convicted in Canada of assaulting his girlfriend and it didn't show up on or he had been arrested.
I'm sorry of assaulting his girlfriend in Canada hadn't shown up on a background check.
So people were like, this stuff is terrible.
And VH1 said, you know what?
It's all that company that sent us these shows.
We didn't even want them.
We didn't even ask for them.
This company, 51 Minds, they just made us run these shows.
And they really threw them under the bus and made it look like they were turning their back on the whole concept.
And they did, largely.
There was a huge shift.
But there were still shows like Dating Naked that was on from 2014 to 2016.
And a lot of their existing reality shows continued on past this scandal.
But they did shift a little more to reality TV that was made by Black creators.
They kind of moved away from the more lurid stuff to a little more engrossing Black-created shows.
RuPaul's Drag Race has been a big hit, sort of a niche hit, but very, very popular show.
It's, you know, it's RuPaul.
It's a parody of reality competition that launched in 2009 on Logo, but then moved to VH1 in 2017 and then eventually MTV in 2023.
Yeah, Love & Hip Hop has been a very big show created by Mona Scott Young.
It started out with kind of being about Jim Jones, the rapper, and then eventually shifted over to his girlfriend, Chrissy Lampkin, and just the hip hop scene in New York, in their world.
Same with Basketball Wives by Shaquille O'Neal's ex-wife, Shawnee Henderson.
It just had its 12th season.
And then Nick Cannon Presents Wild N' Out, which is an improv competition show about
And they're still making new episodes.
It started out on MTV and then moved to VH1 in 2019.
And very much like Ridiculousness, reruns of Wild N' Out are carrying VH1 right now, apparently, with Fresh Prince of Bel-Air and My Wife and Kids reruns.
I never saw Dating Naked.
What was that about?
It was exactly what it sounds like.
It needs no explanation whatsoever.
Oh, man, you got me, buddy.
I think we're even for all time now.
Well, Chuck said, okay, good.
And we don't have anything more to say about VH1 except go watch some VH1.
And that means it's time for Listener Mail.
By the way, I was not bagging on Wilco.
I hope it didn't come across that way.
They are sort of thrown in that dad rock category, but I always loved Wilco.
I read all of Jeff Tweedy's books.
Was big into Uncle Tupelo, so I'm not bagging on Wilco.
Jeff Tweedy's The Spymaster and The Tinkerer?
And The Tinkerer, too, is really good.
Hey, Chuck, Josh, and Jerry.
I've been a listener for a few years and used to do the sandwich method for listening to the episodes, but recently decided to work all my way through and catch up to the present.
I find this is a better method, personally, since listener mail and references from past shows don't really make sense when listening to newer episodes before listening to the episodes that came before.
Anywho, this is not why I'm writing it.
I'm not sure if you're aware, but Chuck Stradamus struck again.
The episode April 26, 2018, Does Pyromania Actually Exist?
Josh brings up John Leonard Orr, convicted serial arsonist, mass murdered, former firefighter, arsonist, investigator.
And Chuck, around 34, 39, says, that's a movie waiting to happen.
Seven years later, Apple TV releases Smoke, a TV show based on John Leonard Orr.
If you haven't watched the show, I definitely recommend watching, even though I've spoiled the plot.
Keep up the good work, guys.
PS, is Chuck's ability a gift or a crazy coincidence?
That is Brenda S. from Dallas, Texas.
I love that you're getting my back as Chuck Stradamus because my past predictions of Hugh Jackman playing P.T.
Barnum and most notably that I thought Jared from Subway was a creep long before his truth came out.
Don't forget predicting Sharknado.
That might be the feather in the cap.
But in this case, I don't know if you can really claim Chuck Stradama's territory if it's just like, hey, that would make a good movie, and it became a movie.
I feel like you really just burst Brenda's bubble.
No, I'm bursting my own bubble.
Can I get a ruling from you, dear leader?
I will allow it as one of Chuck Stradamus' predictions that came true.
We're not wilding out here.
If you want to get in touch with us like Brenda and try your luck at having us burst your bubble and have a lot of alliteration as we do, you can send us an email to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.
You might know me as that guy from Twin Peaks, Sex and the City, or just The Internet Stand.
I have a new podcast called What Are We Even Doing?
where I embark on a noble quest to understand the brilliant chaos of youth culture.
Each week, I invite someone fascinating to join me to talk about navigating this high-speed rollercoaster we call reality.
Join me and my delightful guests every Thursday and let's get weird together in a good way.
Listen to What Are We Even Doing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hey, and welcome to the short stuff.
I'm Josh and there's Chuck.
It's just us, but Jerry and Dave are here in spirit.
And speaking of spirits, we've got a pretty spooky real life Halloween adjacent episode, even though it's a real deal custom over in China.
So we're going to go, Chuck, today to the Zhangji region.
There's no way you can't say region like that.
Of Hunan province.
That's in south central China.
And if you go there, local custom will tell you that if somebody dies, if someone dies away from their home, especially their birthplace, they have to return back to it to be buried.
Because if they don't, they will have a restless spirit that vexes the living, maybe even possessing them.
The thing is, sometimes people do die away from home.
And there's a remedy for this that the people in Hunan province have come up with.
And that is to walk the corpse back home to be buried.
Yeah, the Qing Dynasty apparently is where it finds its roots.
And the idea that they were doing this in the 60s potentially even is pretty interesting.
But apparently it was Mao who stamped it out because it was superstitious and therefore counter-revolutionary.
I don't know if it still goes on in little random pockets, although it's much easier to get a corpse back home these days.
Yeah, traditionalists might do it.
You never know.
Maybe, maybe so.
But traditionally, speaking of tradition, it was the Taoist priests who were responsible for walking corpses back home.
And to do this, Chuck, they basically had two options available.
One was much more efficient than the other.
The first one was corpse walking, which is essentially what it sounds like.
The thing is, we should say this here.
Like, I don't know if we've emphasized this enough.
This was a magical event where a Taoist priest basically reanimated a corpse enough to have it walk behind him.
to be led by the Taoist priest back home to be buried.
This dead person would walk back home with the Taoist priest.
That's corpse walking.
They would be like, yo-ho, yo-ho, we got a pothole coming up on the right.
And the corpse would kind of like walk around the pothole, right?
And there was one other thing you would see in addition to this priest leading this tall corpse dressed in a black robe back home.
You would probably see a black cat running along with them.
They essentially did not ever travel without a black cat because this is how the corpse was reanimated every day.
Or I should say every night when the priest and the corpse took their journey back up.
The black cat would rub itself all over the corpse several times.
And the idea was the static electricity from the cat's fur was what reanimated the corpse to move again.
Oh, my gosh, Chuck.
That is a wonderful story.
That's awesome.
Well, welcome to the family, Olivia.
So Chuck, I said that there were two ways for a Taoist priest to lead a corpse back home.
The first one was corpse walking, which we just talked about.
It was a priest and a corpse.
The much more efficient version is corpse herding.
And it's very much like how today, if somebody's transporting a car for an owner, they're going to transport more than one at a time, and they're going to group the cars together on the back of a truck by the region that they're all going to.
This was basically the concept behind corpse herding.
There's essentially nothing more hilarious that you can see than that.
This was instead of them being on either side of the priest, they would be in a single file line all following behind the lead priest.
And then there'd be priests on either side kind of corralling them in because you didn't want walking corpses to kind of wander off and, you know, try to possess somebody or steal their chi.
And it did bear some similarities to what you're talking about.
We'll see that in a second.
But I want to talk about a Chinese-American writer named Louise Hung, who wrote an account, a really interesting account of her grandfather's experience way back in the day when he was a young boy.
She posted it on the Order of the Good Death website, which we've talked about them a million times over the years.
But just to kind of summarize, if I may.
Her grandfather and his brother lived in a town where a corpse procession walked through, and they heard the gong coming, and they were hiding with everybody else in town, just keeping out of sight.
But they were brave enough to kind of peek out.
And they saw, she says, a line of corpses lurching, hopping, swaying through the streets to the beat of the gong.
They saw white cloths covering the heads of the dead, faces positioned up and forward, supposedly looking toward their final resting place.
And so like this happened, like this is not like this, like there weren't like legends of corpse walking.
These happened in real life.
And if you say, I don't really believe in magic, Taoist or otherwise, I don't really think a black cat's static electricity could reanimate a corpse.
If this actually happened, guys, guys, what was going on, guys?
Yeah, which is probably something you had to watch out for.
That's why the corpses that were in a single corpse walking procession always were very tall.
That's right.
Because they were on the back of another priest who was hiding.
And just to be clear, they didn't like impale the dead person on the bamboo pole.
It was like tied to them.
So the way that they did this was they could see kind of through the black robe, they could see the lantern enough to be led.
And remember, the priest in front would be like, there's a pothole coming up on the right.
Yo-ho, yo-ho.
So they would do this and then obviously they would switch off night to night who would carry the corpse and who would do the processing.
That was how corpse walking worked.
Corpse herding also used bamboo poles, but they used them horizontally, kind of like you were talking about with the basketball halftime guy.
They can't all be homemade.
Yeah, or make one.
How hard could that be?
I'm sure there's a halftime basketball dancer being like, yeah, you'll find out, pal.
It's really hard.
Can you reveal your idea on this episode?
Okay, awesome.
Oh, so wait, hold on one second about the bamboo poles.
There would be two of them, one running under each arm of the corpses.
So basically they were hanging the corpses by their arms.
by bamboo poles.
Then the poles would be, the ends of the poles would be carried by a priest in front and back on their shoulders.
And the way that those two priests would walk, it would get telegraphed through the bamboo poles, which would make the corpses look like they were just kind of bouncing around.
Their feet would probably hit the ground and touch it here or there.
So it looked like they were walking in line behind the Taoist priests.
Isn't that nuts?
And they would say, MBA, it's fantastic.
I don't think there's anything that could top that, Chuck.
So I say short stuff is out.
Hey, and welcome to The Short Stuff.
I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's here too.
And we are coming to you from inside your house.
Yeah, this takes a real hard left all of a sudden.
Plus also Sean Van Horn on Collider and the good folks on the Straight Dope message board.
That's right.
So the call is coming from inside the house is also often called the babysitter and the man upstairs.
And just the quick sketch of it, this is an urban legend that probably dates back to the 60s and essentially says that there is a usually a young teen tween girl alone at home or more often that she is alone babysitting some kids who are younger than her.
And she keeps getting calls from some mysterious stranger who asks her, have you checked on the kids who are ostensibly asleep upstairs?
And she just hangs up.
She thinks it's a prank call.
And as time goes on, these calls get more and more sinister.
Yep.
And one of the things that makes it so creepy, too, is that when this, you know, was passed around, this urban legend, like you couldn't really call your own phone number.
Yeah.
And if you had two lines in the house, maybe only the richest of your friends had two lines in their house.
There's a whole urban legend surrounding how you could call your own line if you did certain things.
That's neither here nor there, it turns out.
But the fact that it's coming from inside the house means that it's the last place you'd expect somebody to be calling from, which made it even scarier for the viewer who had no idea or the listener, I guess, for the urban legend who had no idea it was coming.
Yeah.
Did you have that little legends that it was like you could you could do something, you know, like tap thing, tap like the receiver or whatever to call your own line?
Or was it just like you just can't do that?
But yeah.
Yeah.
So the fact that it was coming from inside the house when it's really not supposed to have been able to happen just made it that much scarier.
And it makes it a little harder to understand or grasp in the age of cell phones where you can call somebody from inside the house.
Like it's entirely possible the call was coming from inside the house.
No.
Did he say we cause holes in teeth?
Oh, crazy.
That was a good one.
A drip drop maniac.
Nice.
You want to take a break so I can kind of recollect myself after that terrifying story?
Oh, I don't already.
I've gotten better in my older age, but if I'm watching like a particularly a good ghost movie, horror movie.
At night and you, me and Momo have already gone to bed and I have to turn out all the lights.
I will basically run down the hall to the bedroom like.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I try not to and I just can't not.
I'm also one of those people who if you jump out and scare them, I go up like both feet off of the ground and make like a sound kind of thing.
Like you can really get me if you.
Oh, I think it's great.
After like about 30 seconds afterward, I think it's hilarious and wonderful, but it takes me a second.
You had framed pictures on your wall in college?
Oh, you know.
That's impressive.
Yeah.
Have I ever told you my being scared from the closet story?
I was just sitting there in my room.
I was probably like 14 or something.
I was just reading in bed.
And I noticed that the closet door was cracked just a little bit, which was unusual.
I didn't usually do that.
And I even made like a little joke to myself, like, oh, it's probably something in the closet.
And I looked over a minute or two later and the door was open further than it had been.
And I just immediately jumped up and started running for the door.
Like I didn't go to look.
I didn't say like, oh, that's weird.
I immediately jumped up.
Right.
I would totally survive a horror movie.
And my dad came barreling out of the closet like rawr.
And I just basically flipped on my back like a turtle and started screaming.
Even after he was, like, standing over me, like, are you okay?
I was just looking at him.
I couldn't stop screaming.
My mom had time to make it upstairs and into my room and say, what'd you do to him?
And I'm looking at them, like, talking, screaming still on my back.
Like, he got me that good.
Like, he definitely shortened my life.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, 13-year-old girl in Missouri.
1950, Missouri, I can see that being pretty standard procedure.
Yeah.
He also very wisely said, do not open this door until you at least turn on the porch light to see who it is knocking on the door, right?
So you would think that little Janet was probably going to be just fine.
I mean, it was probably going to be an uneventful night anyway.
Yeah.
But she had also been equipped with a shotgun by the people she was babysitting for.
The thing that gets me is that she had chosen to babysit rather than go to a school party because she had recently bought a dress on installment and needed the money to pay for a dress like a responsible little 13 year old.
So she shouldn't have even been there.
I think at some point around 1030, the police in her town got a call from a girl just shouting, come quick.
And then the line suddenly was cut off.
The police didn't have anything like tracing calls or anything like that at the time.
This is 1950 in Missouri.
And they had no idea who it was, but it turned out it was Janet, sadly.
Yeah.
Yes.
And the reason why that porch light seems to be important is that the Romacks and Janet's family believed that a man that was known to her was the person who murdered her, a guy named Robert Muller.
He was a friend of Ed Romacks.
And he also knew Janet because Janet had babysat for Robert Muller's children before.
And he had actually asked her to babysit that night.
And she said, I can't.
I'm babysitting for the Romacks already.
And he was a he was an odd duck, to say the least, and enough of a creep, essentially, from how the Romacks and Janet's family put it, that he was always suspected by them.
No, but there were some reasons why they suspected him.
One, he apparently had groped Mrs. Romack just a few days before the murder.
Mrs. Romack was like, I'm not really down with that guy.
Sure.
He also had told Mr. Romack that he liked Janet.
And later on, after the murder, he had told Mr. Romack that he could have murdered Janet and then just forgotten about it.
So it was some weird stuff.
And like they yeah, he died in 2006.
We'll never know.
Yeah.
Janet's murder has never been solved and probably never will at this point.
No, I saw the first instance of it on film, though, was a 1973 movie called The Severed Arm.
But it wasn't like a plot driver.
It was just one of the ways a person was murdered.
The call was coming from inside, like I think the studio they were working in.
For sure.
For sure.
One other thing real quick, though.
When a Stranger Calls Back, the sequel to When a Stranger Calls, is one of the finest riff tracks you can see.
Oh, really?
So if you're looking for a riff track to start with, start with that one.
That's it, I guess, for the trope of the call coming from inside the house, right?
That's right.
I think it means short stuff is out.
First, RIP Janet Christman.
For sure.
This is an iHeart Podcast.
Listen to The Big Take from Bloomberg News every weekday afternoon on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Put another way, are you high?
Hey, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Josh.
There's Chuck.
There's Jerry.
And we are practically perfect in every way here on Stuff You Should Know.
That's right.
I'm just a bill.
Only a bill.
Oh, yeah?
Yeah.
Have you ever been to Capitol Hill?
Oh, I'm just sitting here on Capitol Hill.
Do you remember we did a whole episode on Schoolhouse Rock once and you had Bob Nastanovich on?
Yeah, of Pavement, who, by the way, I finally met him in real life.
Oh, yeah?
Yeah.
Yeah, I was at a hard quartet show, the new super group with Matt Sweeney and Stephen Malkmus and Emmett Kelly and Jim White and in Atlanta.
And I turned around in the Variety Playhouse lobby and Stanovich comes strolling in.
And I was like, hey, man, I was like, and I'm sure he gets hey manned a lot.
So he had his, you know, his guard up.
Actually, he didn't.
He was nice.
But I was like, hey, it's Chuck from Stuff You Should Know.
It's good to finally meet you in person.
And he's like, oh, hey, man.
And we chatted for a minute.
And it was great.
Oh, that's cool.
He remembered you, huh?
Yeah, yeah.
We've emailed and texted here and there.
Oh, gotcha.
Wow, that's great, Chuck.
So that's my Bob Nastanovich story.
That's a great one.
That's about as good as a Bob Nastanovich story gets.
Yeah.
I mean, I got to meet a pavement guy.
So that was like bucket list complete.
So...
I guess I can't think of a segue from Bucket List.
I mean, I guess it would be an uncrossed off thing on my bucket list to build a time machine and go back to 1983 and watch Saturday morning cartoons again.
How's that?
Yeah.
I mean, what was your routine in your house?
Yeah.
Let's hear it.
I don't ever recall having to worry about my sisters trying to change the channel.
Like when it was Saturday morning cartoons, it was all me.
That whole morning.
Yeah.
It was great.
So they weren't watching.
No.
No.
Amanda's five years older than me.
Karen was 13 years older than me.
Neither one of them had much interest in Saturday morning cartoons when I did.
The interest didn't overlap.
Yeah, we were close enough.
Scott's three years older, Michelle's six, so we overlapped a bit.
And our routine was there was, you know, Saturday morning cartoons, but it was always a race to the big yellow chair to see who could claim that first.
Did you sit in a chair?
I sat like three feet from the TV on the ground, cross-legged in front of it.
Yeah, you were one of those guys.
Because you weren't blocking anybody.
No, it was totally cool.
It was just me.
I love it.
Yeah, with my E.T.
cereal.
Yeah, parents sleeping in.
Yep, for sure.
Actually, I can't say what anyone else in the house was doing during 8 a.m.
to 12 p.m.
every Saturday morning.
Yeah, I don't remember watching them like the whole block, but maybe I did.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I did, except I know we've talked about it before.
I don't remember what episode.
But Thundar the Barbarian, I would miss it.
I would get to watch like the first seven, eight minutes.
And then my mom would be like, it's time to leave for swimming lessons.
And it was such a bummer.
And I know I've talked about it before on the show because a listener was so kind that they bought the complete episode.
series of Thundar the Barbarian and mailed it to me so that I could see it.
Yeah.
That's amazing.
Yeah.
Was it VHS?
No, DVD, man.
They've styled me out, so thank you.
That's amazing.
So, all right, let's get into this because I'm sure we're going to pepper our own favorite cartoons that we watched throughout this, right?
I might mention a cartoon or two.
You never know.
Okay.
I mean, you were into this, right?
For years and years, you spent Saturday mornings watching cartoons, right?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, as you've reminded me over and over through our lives, I'm a bit older than you.
So there will be some overlap, but also, you know, as evidenced by like your love of like the G.I.
Joe stuff.
That was a little bit after when I was into that kind of thing.
So there'll be some misses here and there, too.
I'm sorry you left out the adjective superior G.I.
Joe stuff.
Yeah.
This is a fun trip down memory lane, though.
And big thanks to Julia for this.
Yeah, for sure.
So for those of you who were born after the mid-90s or even the early 90s, I guess, because it took a few years to come to realize that there was such a thing as Saturday morning cartoons and then get into them.
you might not really get what we're talking about.
Maybe you've heard of Saturday morning cartoons, like Gen Xers love to talk about it all the time, clearly.
But it was a very special thing, like a point in time every week where essentially every child in America
And I've read also Australia had their own.
The UK had their own to an extent.
Canada, other countries in Asia had like Saturday morning cartoons.
And you came and you sat down and you watched four straight hours of cartoons.
Yeah.
Peppered with ads directed to you, a 5, 6, 7, 8, 9-year-old, and loved life.
And that was like your time in the week because, like you said, parents tended to sleep in during that time.
They were totally happy with their kids amusing themselves for the first four hours of the morning, watching TV and eating sugary cereal.
And like it's there was a real loss when it went away.
Like I was well out of watching Saturday morning cartoons by the time it went away.
Same.
But I remember feeling like a real like sense of like younger kids and like subsequent generations like really missing out on something that we were in retrospect really lucky to have.
Yeah, and I'm sure the counter to that could be like, yeah, bruh, but we can watch anything we want, whenever we want, all the time, including Saturday morning.
And not to say like, oh, things are better then, but there was something special about a block when you didn't have choice like that, dedicated to you, aimed squarely at you for a certain amount of time, saying we see you kids and we want to sell you things.
It's true.
Like when I read about, you know, just how shamefully bad the commercialism was in the 80s.
I still am like, I don't I don't care.
Like I loved all I loved every minute of it.
Yeah.
And the commercials, as we'll see, were not that much different than the content.
And I saw this in action when when Ruby was younger and she would watch commercials with the same fervor.
And I'll be like, yeah, I guess I did the same thing, you know.
I remember when we first started podcasting with ads, the whole idea was, yeah, just all of a sudden start talking about the product so no one gets that you're giving an ad.
And we were both like, we're not doing that at all.
And that's where the idea for the fan-submitted jingles came about was to make sure everybody knew an ad is coming.
We're not just suddenly going to start talking about how great our Casper mattress is.
Right.
Because I love cartoons and I love printer ink now that you mention it.
Yeah.
Yeah, I do too.
And, you know, I've got one of those Epson printers and they have like a tankless or a bottomless tank where you just refill the cartridges.
You don't even have to go buy new cartridges.
Do they?
Yeah, Epson.
I wonder if people are going to suspect that's real and not a bit.
No, it's a bit, everybody.
They should send you some dough, though, you know.
Yeah.
But what we're talking about is a span of time of a few decades, about 65 to 2000-ish, although you will see there was some one straggler, at least, beyond 2000.
Uh, and cartoons had been around, but they had mainly been in, in movie theaters.
Like they would play them before, uh, like you go to like a fancy movie theater and there'll be like an organ player and you would see a cartoon and maybe a newsreel.
Uh, the first sort of regular running TV cartoon was something called Crusader Rabbit in 1950.
Uh, just ran for a couple of years, but the first big breakout, uh,
was the Mighty Mouse Playhouse.
Mighty Mouse had been around since 1942, but it made its big Saturday morning television debut in 1955 on CBS.
Yeah, and that changed everything because prior to this, there was Saturday morning programming, apparently all the way back to the days of radio.
If you were a kid, you would tune in either after school or on Saturday mornings to hear your favorite program.
So they were well aware that this is when kids listened and then eventually watched
But if you were a kid on Saturday morning, you were probably watching like some clubhouse style show where some local dude who might or might not be dressed as a sad clown is interacting with puppets.
And the studio audience is nothing but kids.
There's a single camera.
It's produced by your local TV station.
And like that's what you watch because they were so dirt cheap to make.
And then when Mighty Mouse came along, it basically showed these things are maybe a little more expensive than that clubhouse style show, but they're way cheaper than like the Lone Ranger or our gang or some of the other stuff we're showing on Saturday mornings.
And there's something else that's really, really important to remember.
We talked about it, I think, in our political cartoons episode.
Cartoons are a super stimuli.
They hit our brains differently than watching Alfalfa or the Lone Ranger or that sad clown who are live action, real life people.
They hit us differently.
They capture our attention differently.
And so Mighty Mouse essentially showed like, hey...
You want to, like, get into a kid's brain and sell them stuff?
This is the way to do it.
Cartoons are the wave of the future.
Yeah, way to get a load of Droopy.
Droopy was great, wasn't it?
Yeah, although I don't remember stuff like that Saturday morning.
I remember stuff like Droopy more of, like, afternoon, after school kind of hours.
But cartoons became a big deal shortly after they hit the small screen.
And in 1960...
And this is one of those little weird factoids that I think some people might not realize is that Flintstones is actually a primetime show.
A lot of people do know that, but a lot of people don't.
So was the Bugs Bunny show at first, the Jetsons, and the New Adventures of Johnny Quest.
They were all primetime, you know, major network, which is to say either ABC, CBS, or NBC.
This was pre-Fox even.
There were only three.
Right.
And not too long after, 1967, was when they said, you know what, we got to consolidate all this stuff to Saturday morning.
And that was it.
It was a new thing.
And like you said, it was pretty cheap to make, especially, I mean, some of the cartoons were better than others.
There were some that were really cheap and kind of poorly made, where like just the mouths moved and stuff like that.
And it was the same person voicing every character, like kind of clearly different.
And they were like, hey, what we can do here is we've got these kids.
We've got this captive audience, tons and tons of kids named Josh Clark sitting three feet in front of their TV, crisscross applesauce.
And that means we can sell them toys and sugar.
Yes.
And they were already doing this.
I mean, those clubhouse style TVs, the guy would do like what the original podcast ads were supposed to.
He'd just suddenly be talking about a brand new toy that he loves.
Yeah.
Right.
So they've been doing this before.
But again, cartoons, they just were operating on a different plane.
And I think 1966 was a pivotal year, according to I found a pretty good article about this by a guy named Paul F.P.
Pogue.
It's a great name on Encyclopedia.com.
And he basically says 1966 was the it was the year because that was the first year where all three networks showed cartoon blocks on Saturday mornings.
And from that moment on until I would argue the late 90s, really.
was a golden age for cartoons on Saturday mornings.
Yeah, for sure.
And you, you know, you didn't have DVRs or TiVo or anything like that to record stuff, obviously.
You didn't really even have VCRs to record things.
Right.
You probably just had the one TV at least until kind of mid to late 70s is when multiple TVs really started showing up a little bit more unless you were, you know, like the rich kid.
And so you had to figure out and debate with your siblings if they were around what to watch by reading most.
You know, a lot of people got TV guide, but we did not pay for that because we didn't pay for extra things in our family.
Sure.
But, you know, we had the local paper, which had the TV listings.
And so you pour through some made arguments that, you know, it had kids reading on Saturday morning as a result.
And you would you know, sometimes there were real Sophie's choices to be made on what to watch.
Right, and the reason why, and this is what's hard to understand if you're like Gen Z or even like a late millennial, there was no...
choice in what you were watching.
When you sat down on Saturday mornings, the networks that you were watching were showing you the shows that they decided they wanted to run.
So a show you watched was on a specific time, on a specific network, on a specific day, in this case, Saturday morning.
So you just sat down and I think there was something about not having that choice that made it even more enjoyable so long as the stuff was good.
Yeah.
I mean, they were serving us exactly what we wanted.
I never had any complaints.
Did you?
The only complaint I had is that I didn't have three TVs that I could watch them all at the same time or even better sequentially.
Yeah, for sure.
And while this is all, you know, kind of fun and games are not all fun and games, mostly fun and games.
There are people out there, you know, kind of smarty pants people who have made arguments for things like, hey, it introduced a new generation to the Beatles, because I certainly remember watching that Beatles cartoon when I was a kid.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, it came out in 65.
But by, you know, it was still running somewhere because I watched it.
And that's where I kind of got my love of the Beatles.
It introduced kids to, you know, concepts like what might happen in the future with the Jetsons.
There's a historian named Joel Rhodes.
who said that the cartoons perform what the scholars call the bardic function.
Yeah.
As in, like, medieval bards, and people would sit around and listen to the stories, and it would give kids on the playground, like, they knew the same jokes.
They had the same reference points.
It bonded a generation.
Because they were all watching the same thing on the same day at the same time.
So, yes, that was the culture for kids.
That's where you got your culture, largely.
I mean, not entirely.
There was Mad Magazine, after all.
But, like, that was because there wasn't choice.
Because you couldn't be like, hey, have you seen Black Dub?
No, I haven't seen that.
But have you seen Time Crimes?
It's a great movie.
Right.
Those conversations didn't happen.
It was some kid yelled out like, exit stage left.
And every kid on the playground just cracked up because they knew exactly what they were talking about.
And if you don't know what I'm talking about, just look up cartoon exit stage left.
Yeah, that's right.
Was that Snagglepuss?
Okay.
I get some of those confused sometimes.
No, you nailed it, buddy.
You nailed Snagglepuss.
We also hammered this home in the Schoolhouse Rock episode, but we do have to mention that how pivotal Schoolhouse Rock was in literally teaching kids things about history and about politics and civics and government and math and English, like you name it.
It was all there and like real learning, like legitimate, awesome learning, awesome stuff.
Yeah, that was a good episode.
I remember I cracked myself up and we almost like had to take a longer break.
Yeah, if I remember correctly.
Do you remember the joke?
I think I did some weird impression of Chuck Jones, the Looney Tunes guy.
Oh, man.
I've got to listen to this one now.
Maybe we should put Schoolhouse Rock as our select on Saturday.
Oh, that's a great idea.
When this one comes out.
Good idea.
Yeah.
That's a wonderful idea, Chuck.
Jerry, make a note of that.
And then now I'm doing the Flintstones hammering something into a stone tablet.
Oh, man.
I looked up the Great Gazoo because anytime I hear Flintstones, I think Great Gazoo.
Yeah.
And did you know he was an alien who was banished from his planet for creating a doomsday device?
I don't remember that part.
I didn't either.
I remember him floating around, but yeah, that's about it.
Right, and being extremely condescending.
Yeah, for sure.
He was a real jerk.
The dum-dum.
Shall we take a break?
Yeah, let's take a break.
All right.
Whenever you call me a dum-dum, that means I have to go reset.
We'll be right back.
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Chuck, there's one other thing that one other place you could find out what was running at what time on what network.
Saturday morning cartoons.
It was the annual ad full page ad in the comic books in the fall that announced like the Saturday morning cartoon lineup.
Yes.
I didn't know that.
Yeah.
Well, I was going to say go look them up because they're very nostalgic, but they're just awesome.
They're just so great.
And they would tell you what time it was on.
And then it was all starting in two short weeks and you just couldn't wait.
Well, and how sweet that you could publish a one-time thing and that was the lineup.
Right, exactly.
It's like it's not changing.
No, for sure.
Although apparently they would change lineups in spring for shows that weren't working.
But more often than not, you were seeing largely the same shows.
Yeah.
So, yeah, I remember that when things would change sort of mid-season.
That was always disconcerting.
Yeah, and one other thing I just barely touched on, there was a subtext to it.
All this started right after summer ended.
So you had all of summer to have a great time.
Summer stops, school starts, and then Saturday morning cartoon kicks off a new season.
I love it.
The fall TV season.
Yeah.
But the lines started to blur in the 1970s between content and advertising in such a way.
It was sort of like the beginning of, in fact, I'm curious when people started using words like IP, intellectual property, because now we would just call it IP.
Back then, it was like, hey, we got the Jackson 5.
They're a successful musical group.
Let's give them a cartoon.
We got the Osmonds.
Kids love the Brady Bunch.
Let's do the Brady Bunch kids.
We got the Flintstones.
Hey, let's give them a cereal.
And things started just kind of crossing streams such where, yeah, like we would just call that IP today.
It's like, let's take a thing and exploit it in as many different ways and sell it in as many different ways as we can.
Right.
Yes, exactly.
It was they were cartoons starting, like you said, in the 70s became marketing tools.
And at first it was to basically extend the advertising power of an existing TV show like all the ones you listed.
Right.
And more.
Yeah.
But then they started saying like, hey, we have this line of greeting cards.
The Care Bears started out as a greeting cards line.
So did shirt tails, as a matter of fact.
Yeah.
And they would say like, people are going crazy for these mugs with these adorable characters on them.
Because Care Bears did have the loveliest animation potentially of all time, of all Saturday morning cartoons.
Yeah, I think so.
And then they said, OK, mugs are not enough.
Greeting cards are not enough.
Let's like really blow out this this IP, if they were calling it that, and turn it into a kid's show and then start selling like dolls and figures of these cartoons to the kids watching these shows.
And you could take something like the Care Bears as a greeting card line and turn them into a hot property.
Yeah, I mean, we'll read through a few of these.
There was a Pac-Man TV show, of course.
That was good.
Which was an arcade game, of course.
There was a Dungeons & Dragons cartoon.
That was pretty good.
Role-playing game.
I don't think I ever saw that.
There was, let me see here, obviously the Transformers.
Yeah.
Long before they were not-so-great Michael Bay movies.
They were toys, and then...
A cartoon, and as you'll see, some of these things kind of, it's hard to remember which one came before the other or if they were like developing toys just to sell a cartoon or developing a cartoon just to sell toys.
It kind of, except for, you know, Rambo and Chuck Norris, which were actual shows in 1986.
Rambo, The Force of Freedom and Chuck Norris, Karate Commandos, double K. I think the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles was the one that started out as a show just to sell the toys, right?
Yeah.
They were basically co-developed at the same time as part of a grand scheme.
I know Jim and the Holograms was a cartoon before the toys, about a year before the toys.
Okay.
There were Smurfs.
When the Smurfs came out, that was a big deal.
Yeah.
Because there was like, was it 100 or 101 Smurfs with Papa Smurf?
Yeah.
And they made little, like really collectible size action, well, not action figures because they weren't action at all, but just little figures of the Smurfs.
You remember those?
Yeah, you could Smurf them all.
Yes, exactly.
I'm pretty sure they had like a hundred different ones that you could collect.
And people went bonkers on those things because they were just so cute.
And you could put them on your desk or you could play with them or do whatever.
The Smurfs came first.
And I think that they really kind of helped kick off that idea
That genuine, like, we can really market the heck out of these cartoons if we make figures based on these.
Yeah, see, that's a slight divide.
I was a little bit old for Smurfs.
A little bit old for Smurfs.
Full stop.
Smurfs is still pretty good.
Hey, they're still making those movies, man.
That was one out last year, wasn't there?
I have not seen the, you mean like the CGI movies?
Yeah, yeah.
I've not seen them, but yeah, I think they've got several out.
Yeah, I think it's the same thing.
They're still smurfing at the box office.
That's great.
And then there were other ones like Strawberry Shortcake, My Little Pony, where, like you said, the lines between, did the cartoon come first?
Did the toys come first?
It really doesn't matter because they were all part of the same package by this point.
We're well into the 80s, which not coincidentally was the deregulation-minded Reagan era.
And cartoons at this point had evolved into half hour essentially commercials for the actual toy.
And in the most pronounced cases, the actual commercials were for the toys in the cartoon that the toys were based on.
Yeah, I've got some stats here because in the late 70s, the FTC, and we're going to talk about the FCC and the FTC quite a bit, because parents and the government started to get a little upset, basically.
They saw the writing on the wall.
And in the late 70s, they released numbers by the FTC that highlighted
What they called it like a real health problem for this programming companies every year.
And this was back then in the 70s, spent 500 to 600 million dollars on ads targeted to children of all the foods being advertised to kids.
Two thirds.
I'm surprised it wasn't more than this, honestly, were highly sugared products.
It was.
By my Josh math calculations, it was over 95%.
Okay.
That feels about right.
Yeah, for real.
Because of all the foods.
But even of all the ads, Chuck, most of them were for sugared foods.
There was that study or that trade commission study looked at some data that looked at nine months of 1975, not even the whole year, looked at 7,515 ads.
7,182 of those ads were for sugary foods.
95.7%.
Was there anything for good food?
Yes, actually.
There were four ads over nine months, four different ads for meats, vegetables, milk, or cheese.
And milk, cheese, and I think meats maybe had zero.
So vegetables somehow was basically carrying that.
And I would guess all four of those were different V8 ads or fruit juice ads.
Who was the guy?
It was like the...
The Dairy Council or something?
The guy that danced around and sang about cheese?
I think it was Time for Timer.
Was he like a big circle with real long skinny legs in the cowboy?
That was Timer.
Okay, yeah.
What was that?
Was that the Dairy Council?
No, he was actually a response to the government actually doing something in the late 70s, which we'll talk about, which was PSAs to kind of counteract this stuff.
Yeah, it was a good thing.
Okay.
He talked about eating proteins and stuff rather than sugar.
God, what a very weird.
He looks like Twinkie the Kid a little bit.
Yeah.
I couldn't put my finger on it, Chuck.
You're absolutely right.
That's who it was.
All right.
So the writing's on the wall.
These studies are coming out and people are saying like, really?
Four ads for good food and 7000 plus for sugary stuff.
And so people started getting upset, not just about the ads, though, but about the content.
Cartoon violence is a real thing.
Every time there was an adult in a cartoon, they were buffoons and morons.
Or they had like an evil plot that the kids had to foil.
Yeah, for sure.
Like they were bad people.
Like Scooby-Doo kids, they were always foiling the adult's evil plan.
Exactly.
They were never going against fellow whatever.
I mean, how old were they even?
They were late teens, maybe even post high school.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think it was right before college.
Okay.
Consumerism, of course, was very much glorified in the cartoons and the ads.
And by the late 60s, you know, jumping back a bit, there were groups that were forming.
The Action for Children's Television got together.
They were lobbying the FCC.
Obviously, they regulate the media on not cable, as we'll see, but just regular TV.
And they were saying like, hey, this is this stuff is we got to pull this back some like we're getting out of hand with what we're feeding children four hours at a time every Saturday.
Yeah.
Yeah.
This was, like you said, the late 60s.
It started to really kind of pick up in the 70s because the reason why is more and more research was funded studying what effect television had on kids.
And Saturday morning cartoons were a deep focus of those studies, too.
There was a 1975 study from the National Science Foundation.
It was a meta analysis.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They said Saturday morning cartoons are creating conflict within families.
Yeah.
Because kids are going to their parents saying, I want this.
The parents say no.
And the kid gets upset and starts arguing.
And that's internal family conflict, familial conflict.
And one of the surveys found that kids, I think a third of kids reported arguing sometimes when their parents said no.
A sixth of them argued, quote, a lot.
So the reason why Saturday morning cartoons in particular were causing this conflict is because there were so many ads for so many kids' products that kids saw every Saturday that it increased the frequency of kids asking for stuff, which increased the frequency of being told no, which increased the frequency of arguing and conflict.
Yeah, for sure.
Parents didn't like that, of course.
They also didn't like that they learned that and they did, you know, studies on this too.
And they found that young kids or kids in general basically couldn't tell the difference between cartoons and ads because sometimes it was the literal characters from the cartoon selling you something.
Sometimes it was kids playing with toys and showing you the action of the toys and kids just love watching that.
Right.
And the younger you were, you really couldn't tell the difference.
Once you got a little bit older, you could tell the difference just by the length and be like, well, those are the short cartoons.
Right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Because these ads were all like there would be a mini cartoon within the ad, you know, like Frankenberry would almost fall into a pit or something like that.
And Count Chocula would have to come turn into a bat and rescue him or something like that.
And then they both end up eating their cereal that like if you're a little kid, you're like, this is great.
This is some weird short that they just put in the middle of the show.
But it's not an ad.
And I'm hungry all of a sudden for that cereal.
Mom, I want some Count Chocula.
That was actually captured really well in a Simpsons, just as almost an aside, where Itchy and Scratchy are up for a cartoon award.
And one of the other cartoons in the running for best writing in a cartoon series was Action Figure Man, the How to Buy Action Figure Man episode, where it just shows a little kid and goes, Mommy, I want it.
He's pointing to the action figure.
Like, not even an ad.
That was the episode.
That's really funny.
Yeah, they nailed it on that.
They nailed it like snagglepuss.
They always do.
So the long and short of all of this past few minutes is that kids didn't know that they were being sold things.
And parents didn't like that.
I think the authors of the paper were fairly kind when they said, certainly most advertisers do not deliberately set out to confuse or mislead children, nor to promote unsafe, unhealthy or socially undesirable behavior, which is very naive, I think.
But maybe they were just trying to soft sell it.
Right.
So you put all this together that, again, started in the 60s as kind of agitation.
And also this is where this is the climate that Sesame Street grew out of and probably made Saturday morning cartoons look even worse because it showed you could make kid shows that didn't poison their minds.
And then it picked up in the 70s.
And by 1978, the Federal Trade Commission said, hey, we need to do something about this.
We're not going to do anything about it.
But we're going to make some recommendations through their staff report on television advertising to children.
They said we should ban all television advertising for any product whatsoever that's directed at very young children.
That's a big one.
Right.
So you can kiss my buddy goodbye, right?
Ban advertising directed to older children for sugared products, which makes sense.
But the thing they predicated this concern on just cracks me up because those things can pose serious dental health risks.
Like that was the extent of the concern with sugary products back then.
You could rot your teeth.
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, that's what you heard.
That'll rot your teeth.
Not like just eating tons of sugar is not good for you.
Right.
I remember having like a we did a module that included a play and some other stuff in third grade that was sponsored by Crest.
There's a big Crest like cut out stand up.
And like we just in class, we just did this whole thing about brushing your teeth with Crest brand toothpaste.
It was like that pervasive.
We make holes in teeth.
Do you remember that?
Yeah, I do, but I can't place it.
It was, oh, man.
I mean, I think it was Crest, but it was, again, a cartoon that Crest was running, and it was the cavity something that they had to fight.
And that was what they would chant, we make holes in teeth.
Yeah, that might have been one of the things that kicked this off.
Yeah, probably so.
And then the final requirement was advertisements directed to older kids for other sugared products that they could, you know, put on TV would be balanced by ads for other nutritional products or health disclosures at the end of the sugared product ad.
That's where Timer came from.
Yeah, okay.
I gotcha.
That's also where Bod Squad came from, Don't Drown Your Food.
Remember that one?
Oh, yeah.
The cool thing about Schoolhouse Rock is they'd already been doing this for half a decade by the time other networks started to do something about it by running these cute little cartoon PSAs.
So essentially, they were 10, 15, maybe up to 30 second commercials that the networks had to run that were cartoons, too.
So they appealed to kids, but they rather than telling kids to buy Fruity Pebbles, they were telling kids to brush your teeth or to exercise your chompers with things like carrots and apples, that kind of stuff.
Right.
Should we take a break?
Let's talk about the rest of these.
There's some other stuff that you just kind of take for granted.
I didn't realize came out of an actual deal between the networks and the FTC.
Yeah, there was also and all this stuff I didn't remember necessarily in the moment.
But once I started reading about it and studying it and obviously watching on YouTube, it like washed over me.
NBC had one to grow on from 83 to 89.
And that was just usually some famous person sort of giving some life lesson advice.
And they'd be like, well, that's one to grow on.
What else?
Well, Nancy Reagan, of course, and just say no to drugs.
You can forget that.
Yeah, Betty White taught you who to call in an emergency.
Yeah, call Betty White.
Right, exactly.
Because Betty White could handle basically anything.
She was just that kind of person.
There was also The More You Know with the star that went over your head.
That was the 90s on NBC and all of the NBC stars at the time.
Because remember, NBC ruled the airwaves with must-see TV Thursdays.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, real like kind of rugged and raw stuff here or there, but presented in these vignettes that kind of got through to kids, although you can tell they were geared towards slightly older kids.
Yeah, for sure.
And then, of course, your beloved G.I.
Joe talked about stranger danger and always finished with the famous line.
Now, you know, and knowing is half the battle.
And you've seen those parody videos of that before, right?
I don't think so.
Oh, there's about 30 or so, maybe more parody videos that are just totally off the wall, but hilarious where they just take out the sound and put in their own sound and vocals and, um, edit the stuff up, kind of mix it up so that they're just, it's just amazing.
Look up GI Joe PSA parody videos and you'll thank me later.
Or just watch probably any episode of the family guy.
Yeah, probably.
He did a lot of this stuff.
Yeah, he did.
Shall we take a break?
Yes.
All right.
We'll be right back with more on Saturday Morning Cartoons.
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Here we go.
Look, the world can seem pretty scary right now because it is.
Oh, by the way, I remembered it was the Cavity Creeps.
Oh, great memory.
Yeah, it just popped back.
So before we left, we talked about, you know, some of these things they were doing to offset the effect of cartoons.
It's called pro-social programming, and it came about because of an actual deal that was made.
There was an FTC hearing in 1978 where Kenneth Mason of Quaker Oats was up there because, you know, they were like, hey, Captain Crunch is rotting our kids' teeth out, and you make it.
And he actually, like, he didn't think they were the problem.
He thought the content was the problem, but he did come out and had a statement basically where, like, he said, you know, I think we do need to change what's going on in our cartoons and change the way our society is using this medium to communicate with kids.
Yeah.
It took a lot of nerve, I think, for that guy to say that, but he didn't blame the ads, like I said.
So they struck a deal, basically, hey, you can keep these ads if you add this other programming that we were talking about before.
Yeah, and apparently the way that I took it, it was a very crafty thing to do by blaming the content because it took the onus off the sugary product advertisers and everybody started looking at the cartoons themselves.
And the cartoons were probably like, hey, hey, we're not nearly as bad as Fruity Pebbles, but okay, we'll start doing something about it.
And I guess cartoons themselves started to get a little more pro-social.
Like this is where Fat Albert came from, I believe.
Yeah.
But then also those PSAs that we were talking about.
That was the advent of them.
Yeah, for sure.
But this is late 70s.
I think that was 77, 78.
Ronald Reagan would come along in the 1980s and sort of just deregulate the United States as a whole and said, FCC, stand down and don't worry about this stuff.
They didn't officially.
I mean, there were recommendations anyways and not laws.
So a recommendation is only good if you sort of follow up on that.
The FCC started not to in the 80s.
They kind of didn't try in some cases.
I think between 1980 and 1990, they actually saw a rise in the number of violent acts per hour on Saturday morning cartoons from 18.6 to 26.4 per hour.
Which is pretty nuts, but it gets even more nuts when you compare it to what was on primetime, what the adults were watching.
Oh, yeah.
Between 1980 and 1990, it pretty much held steady at just five to six acts of violence per hour, as opposed to the 26 per hour on cartoons.
Yeah.
And, you know, it's cartoon violence, but it's still it's not all Roadrunner falling off a cliff.
Like a lot of it was, you know, depiction like, you know, there was a Rambo cartoon, like I mentioned.
Right.
Yeah, but there is research and I'm not taking a position on either way because people have said like violent video games cause violence.
Right.
This is like the predecessor to all that stuff.
Violent cartoons cause violent kids.
One of the, I guess, arguments of that is that even if it was cartoon violence like Roadrunner, it still desensitized kids to the consequences of violent acts.
Right.
Because there was accompanied with humor.
Yeah, for sure.
So the 80s are kind of the most unchecked time, it seems like.
And the 90s come along and finally they were like, all right, we got to do something.
Congress steps back in and the Children's Television Act of 1990 required the FCC to enforce those original FTC's recommendations in 1978.
and said, you've got to reinstate restrictions on advertising during children's television and enforce the obligations of broadcasters to meet the educational and informational needs of the child audience.
And a couple of years later, NBC was like, all right, I'm done.
It's not even worth it anymore.
Forget this.
Yeah.
Although one good thing that came out of this is this was the origin of Saved by the Bell because NBC went all in on slightly older kids, teen programming on Saturday mornings and the flagship of it was Saved by the Bell.
So much they showed two episodes of it at morning, new ones.
Yeah.
And I mean, this is also where you got things like the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers.
And of course, Pee Wee's Playhouse was a little bit before this.
Or was it in the 90s?
Was that the German pronunciation?
What'd I say?
Pee-wee's play-hoss.
Did I?
Pee-wee's play-hoss.
Perfect.
Yeah, I think that was like 85 or something like that.
Okay.
I never watched Pee Wee's Playhouse.
I know we've talked about this, but I guess I was 14 by then.
Not that you, I mean, I could watch it today and probably really love it because Pee Wee defies age groups, but it was just one of those things that maybe at the time I didn't know about it and didn't think it was for me or something.
I don't know.
I have no excuse.
Yeah.
I wasn't into him either, for sure.
But I did get to see his live version of the Pee Wee's Playhouse.
Oh, you went to that?
Yeah.
Amazing.
Amazing.
So there were a few other consequences of this, but the big one, the upshot was that the government, Congress, essentially nanny-stated Saturday morning cartoons out of existence.
Because of these rules, they just weren't profitable anymore.
There were certain restrictions on advertising.
You could only show so many ads during kids' programming.
There was just a lot that took away the profit drive.
that made Saturday morning cartoons so attractive, right?
Yeah.
There were a lot of other factors, too, that put the writing on the wall, not the least of which was the rise of cable TV, which you mentioned was outside of the purview of the FCC for a long time.
And from what I could tell, even today, networks are required to show three hours of broadcast
educational programming geared toward geared to kids.
So if you ever are up on a Saturday or a Sunday and you were watching say by the bell reruns, like, I don't know, some people do, um, there, it would say, uh, it would flash like a logo that says E I, and it would say this program has been labeled educational and informative.
That's because of the government mandate that they have to run three hours of shows, uh, educational shows, I guess a day.
Yeah.
Maybe.
Maybe a week, because I only remember seeing it on certain times of certain days.
But there were mandates that said you have to show educational programming, and that's why you see that today.
But cable, that didn't apply to.
And so not only did cable not have to show and take up valuable real estate with educational programming that nobody wanted to watch, unless it was saved by the bell, but
There were also cable networks that were geared exclusively to kids that wasn't just on Saturday mornings.
These were 24-hour-a-day children's programmings like Nickelodeon and the beginning, the first iteration of the Disney Channel.
Yeah, and stuff like the WB and CW2, those weren't exclusively kids, but I feel like most of that was through teen years, basically.
You also had the rise of, even though I love my Atari and stuff like that, it wasn't anything like what was to come with at-home gaming.
That certainly put a dent in things because now kids could just get up on Saturday morning and play whatever new system was out.
DBRs came along, and then...
You know, so you didn't have to crowd around the TV at a certain time together.
They all just started getting out of it.
I think I mentioned NBC got out in 92.
CBS got out in 97.
And ABC, wow.
ABC hung on to Saturday morning cartoons till 2010.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
Not bad.
No, I think WB and Fox had only stopped just a couple of years before.
But again, it seems like the whole thing peaked and ended by the late 90s, very early 2000s.
And from what I saw, the last Saturday morning cartoon block,
shown in the United States happened on September 27th, 2014 on the CW.
And the last cartoon show that was shown in the history of Saturday morning cartoons was Yu-Gi-Oh!
Zexal, which is nothing I was ever into, but I know there are a lot of kids who just like drooled with nostalgia.
And that was the last Saturday morning cartoon ever shown.
There's a little piece of trivia for you.
Wow.
Did they have a lone bugler play taps afterward?
They should have for sure.
Man, what an end of an era for sure.
Yeah.
But it also, I mean, when I look back and look at all of this info and I'm like, I was smack dab in the most manipulative stretch of Saturday morning cartoons.
And it makes me wonder, like, what had I been watching in the early 70s or had I been watching in the 90s or 2000s after like all of these restrictions?
How different would I be?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like I can recite a specific Fruity Pebbles ad that they used to show around Christmas.
Oh, yeah?
Yes.
So I think Fred, no, Barney was pretending to be Santa because he wanted to slide down the chimney and get Fred's Fruity Pebbles.
And he said, ho, ho, ho, I'm hungry.
And then he slid down and he found Santa was already there.
And he goes, Santa, my pebbles.
And Fred goes, your pebbles, Barney.
And...
This would like get in my head as an earworm.
And it does still sometimes today where like for days, it'll just be going on a loop in my head.
That's so funny.
And I can even top that, Chuck.
Okay.
As I was thinking about it today, I was highlighting my notes for today, and I started drooling.
So that's the Pavlovian response that was chained to me for Fruity Pebbles, thanks to Saturday Morning Cartoons in the 80s.
Oh, I love Fruity Pebbles.
Not as good as Captain Crunch peanut butter to me.
That's my all-time favorite.
But boy, I love some Fruity Pebbles.
Did you ever have that AT cereal that I mentioned earlier?
I don't think I ever had that.
I mean, we didn't get a lot of that stuff.
If you could afford Captain Crunch peanut butter, you could afford E.T.
Yeah, but Captain Crunch peanut butter was a rarity, and oftentimes it was the generic brands of all that stuff.
So instead of Fruity Pebbles, it was like Fruit Stones or whatever.
Yeah.
Fruit tonsil stones.
Yeah, exactly.
Gross.
Yeah.
As far as peanut butter cereals go, E.T.
was the best, I think.
Oh, it was peanut butter.
Yes.
And it was not peanut butter and chocolate.
It was just peanut butter.
Because remember, Reese's Pieces were E.T.
's favorite candy.
Oh, of course.
And it had like a glossy coating to it, too, that somehow made it even more sweet peanut butter.
It was so good.
Was it E.T.
's head or something?
No, I don't remember what it was, but it was, I don't think it was.
I was just about to ask if it was E's and T's.
It may have been, but on the box, it was obviously just a big picture of E.T.
I bet you they could bring that back and people would like it.
I would buy all of it.
I think it, I'm looking now, buddy.
I think it's E's and T's.
It's so good, Chuck.
I, I, it was so good that, and remember the lemon lime bubble yum, where it was like a lemon center wrapped in lime outside.
Yeah.
Those two things are like, that was the pinnacle of my childhood as far as eating stuff goes.
Yeah, I was a grape Hubba Bubba guy generally.
I found that they had the best tensile strength or the biggest bubbles.
For sure.
But I would also do Hubba Bubba or Bubblicious and Bubble Yum too.
Yeah, Bubble Yum probably had the least bubble blowing ability.
Hubba Bubba definitely had everybody else beat.
Yeah.
One last question.
Did you have a license plate that you got out of a honeycomb box that you put on your bike?
Oh, you bet your sweet bippy I did.
Me too, buddy.
Yeah.
I don't remember what it said, but I'll bet it was bitchin' and pro-America.
Yeah, I didn't even like honeycomb cereal so that they got you to buy stuff just because you wanted the prize.
That's awesome.
And I'm sure you learned all about the license plate being in the box of honeycombs on Saturday morning cartoons.
Yeah.
And man, the nostalgia is coming hard now.
But if you weren't sitting down for Saturday morning cartoons, you would just have your bowl in front of you.
Of course, if you're at the kitchen table eating cereal, what were you doing?
Reading the back of the cereal box.
You got it.
So good, which is probably another ad for something else too.
Yeah, or like a puzzle or a word finder or something.
Yeah, if you're lucky.
Yeah.
We should probably stop because I'm getting dizzy.
I'm about to faint.
I'm drooling now.
If you want to know more about Saturday morning cartoons, I have a great little piece of advice for you.
Some saintly humans have put entire three, four hour blocks of Saturday morning cartoons complete with ads, the original broadcasts on YouTube and all sorts of other video playing sites.
And if you want to just lose yourself, go watch some of it.
You will love it.
Amazing.
Chuck said amazing, which means it's time for listener mail.
I'm going to call this grossest cockroach story ever.
Hey, guys, not to be a one-upper, but I believe I might have the worst cockroach story on earth.
Yikes.
A few years ago, I let my little three-legged best friend trip.
He's got a little tripod dog.
I love those.
Out on the front porch because he loves laying on the porch at night to listen to the bugs.
He's the best dog one could dream for.
But on this night, he let me down for the first time ever for not protecting me.
As I opened the door to let him out, as I turned around to walk back inside, I felt something hit my head and start crawling, quickly ripped off my hoodie and threw it to the ground.
I searched and searched, but ultimately couldn't find the culprit.
After a few minutes of searching, I decided to open the front door to see if Trip wanted to come back in.
Right as I began to call out for him to come inside, a roach the size of a Milano cookie buzzed around from inside the house and flew directly into my mouth.
Oh my goodness.
Yes, all the way into my mouth, I quickly spit it out and tried my best to smash this thing into oblivion, but saliva only made him stronger, I guess, as he evaded me with ease and flew off into the warm summer night sky.
I think about this far too often and wouldn't doubt if it only added to my ongoing anxiety.
He had mentioned at the beginning that
we help with anxiety for Buck, and that his wife appreciates that.
So part of the reason for Buck's anxiety might be recounting this roach story.
For real.
Again, thank you guys for the years of joy, knowledge, and laughs.
May your mouths be free of Paraplaneta Americana for forever and longer.
Nice.
Thanks, Buck.
That was a good email.
Yeah, good writer.
I can imagine that there are some people out there listening that are like, what does he mean a flying cockroach?
Yes, indeed, there are flying cockroaches.
We call them palmetto bugs, and they're giant, and they're flying, and they're cockroaches.
And apparently, if you're Buck and you got your mouth open, a Milano-sized cookie cockroach is going to find its way right into that gaping hole.
I think I already said thanks again, Buck, but that was such a good email, it's worth saying again.
So thanks again, Buck.
And if you want to be like Buck and send us an email, send it off to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.
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You may not know this, but the original purpose of Stuff You Should Know was to change people's minds about mail order marriages.
And we certainly did with this episode.
We were so successful that we decided to keep the podcast going.
I'm just kidding for those of our listeners who have trouble detecting that kind of thing.
What is true is that it's a surprisingly interesting episode and it may very well change your mind about mail order marriages.
I was serious just now for those of our listeners who always think I'm kidding.
How about we all just enjoy this episode, shall we?
Hey, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's here too.
And this is stuff you should know about mail-order marriages.
The murky waters.
Yeah, really.
Yeah, this is one of those where we researched and researched and read and read.
And I think it's one of those deals for me that's like, and this is just my opening statement.
Where it can be a positive thing, like a dating service in some ways, but there is certainly a darker side to the whole situation.
I already know how you feel about it, and I feel like it's coming through clearly.
Yeah, I mean, it's just, it's very, it's one of those really murky things where sometimes you hear these really great stories about people that do find, are looking for love and find love with someone from another country.
And it works out for everybody.
And then sometimes you hear about stories where it's sort of what the National Organization for Women's Sonia Osorio calls a softer version of human trafficking.
Or even worse, occasionally someone turns up murdered.
I mean, that's the truest dark side.
So that's just me level setting, and we can talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly.
I think that was a great level setting.
I generally agree with it, but for me, the jury is still out in thinking about it as a whole because there's so little hard data on this stuff.
Almost everything is anecdotal.
And when like you condemn something based on anecdotal data, what you've got there is a moral panic, not necessarily something in reality.
So I'm a little hesitant to go all the way.
The jury's still out for me, but I definitely recognize the same stuff you do for sure.
It's definitely there.
It exists.
It's just for me the question is how much does it exist and does the good outweigh the bad?
And I don't know.
So we should probably like –
Actually define what we're talking about here, because most people, I would guess, are familiar with mail order brides.
They're more more recently.
They've come to be called mail order marriages because they've been extended to same sex couples in the United States.
But then also, like even more generally, it's called international marriage brokerage.
I mean, there's a full industry built around this with thousands of websites and agencies that are brokering these marriages.
And, you know, from looking into it, it seems like there are some really above board ones that kind of act like.
An international dating surface in some ways where they group, you know, match like people together.
And then it seems like there are a lot of really sketchy ones that charge people a ton of money and aren't looking out for the men or the women.
Yeah, none of that money is sunk back into making their website look at all non-Kluge.
I saw some really, really bad websites.
I mean, so bad, man.
Like, I think I saw Comic Sans at one point.
Yeah, it's hard to see those and not think, well, A, this is a scam, or B, this is a front for some sort of seedy trafficking operation.
Right, yeah.
It is tough not to think like that.
But what we are talking about generally is a marriage –
where the husband and the wife are generally unknown to each other, maybe have met once, but if they did, it's possible it was just a day or two before.
Or maybe they've met once or twice and have done some correspondence back and forth for an extended period of time.
But that's pretty new.
And the classical definition is they're generally unknown to one another.
And one of them, usually the bride, travels a very long distance from home to move to the husband's home and make a life there and be married.
That's not the Webster's definition.
There's a lot more stumbling in my definition, but I think that generally gets it across.
Yeah, and the classic thing that you think of is
lonely American man who has a little bit of money in his forties or fifties can't find American woman, uh,
and ends up getting a young, beautiful young Ukrainian woman who doesn't speak much English and would love to live in the United States and fall in love with an American man.
And that's sort of, and you know, of course it happens from all countries, but a lot of times you think of Russia and the Ukraine or maybe in Southeast Asia or something like that.
That is sort of, I feel like when people say that term, most people, that's probably what pops into their head.
Yeah, or I think you're being rather generous.
I think a lot of people would be like, you know, some sad sack who can't find a woman in America has to go look elsewhere to get really judgy about it.
And I think people are really judgy about mail-order marriages.
I think there's a long-standing tradition in the United States of considering people who—
who go outside the traditional channels of marriage and basically take it into their own hands, like through mail-order marriage, they're very much judged harshly and criticized.
Maybe fairly, maybe not.
But I think there's another component too, especially these days, is that the men who are looking for mail-order brides,
are also dominant, domineering, possibly abusive, and they're looking for docile women who will do whatever they say because they're the husband.
So they have to go to other cultures where that might be more prevalent and where they can select from women who might respond to that kind of thing a lot better than an American woman who wouldn't put up with his guff.
Yeah, I mean, that is certainly a part of what happens sometimes.
And some of these agencies...
promote that, the submissive nature.
There was one that literally said that these young women are, quote, unspoiled by feminism.
And you have potential homemaking savings of $150 a week because you're essentially getting sort of a live-in domestic servant.
Good Lord.
So that's the underbelly and the dark side.
But I did find some that do seem very above board and people that do genuinely look like they're looking for love and have struck out at home.
So they're looking elsewhere.
So I said, Chuck, and we should also say one other thing, too.
Like, you know, it's pretty like it's a pretty well-known thing in America.
It's not like on everybody's lips.
You don't hear it in every monologue on the late night talk shows or anything like that.
But like generally people in America are.
familiar and know about mail-order marriages.
But it turns out it's even bigger in other countries, like Taiwan and South Korea have huge mail-order marriage industries that may even dwarf the United States.
And it's pretty, I don't want to say it's huge in the United States, but it's not like just some small speck of sliver of like an arcane group of people.
Like it's bigger than you'd think, but it's even bigger in some other Asian countries as well.
Yeah, and Dave Ruse helped us put this together, and this was a tough assignment for him.
But he used a lot of information from a book by a legal professor, originally from the University of South Carolina, named Marcia Zug, called Buying a Bride, insert colon music, Jerry.
An Engaging History of Mail Order Matches, where it seems like she gives a –
A fair but fairly full-throated defense of its history through the ages as far as – and we'll get into this.
But as far as an opportunity for a lot of women to gain more agency and to gain more rights at a time when they might not have any.
All the way up through today where she still defends it to a certain degree and and says, you know, like, sure, these situations can be bad.
But what's really bad is what undocumented immigrants have to suffer through in this country because they have no legal rights.
They can't go to the police.
they can't leave their spouse or their partner for fear of deportation.
And it's an interesting take, I think.
And I'm glad that Dave found this book, you know, because I'm not sure that I would have been as fair.
Yeah, yeah.
No, she definitely almost, I get the impression that she is defensive on behalf of the industry just because of how mistreated it's been, and in her opinion, unfairly in large part.
Yeah, because, you know, I think it very much has an anti-feminist rap for good reason.
But she does make some compelling arguments that throughout history, it wasn't that way at all.
And I guess we can go ahead and dive into some of that.
In the early days of male order marriages in the American colonies.
There was a lack of women problem in the early colonies.
I mean, like the earliest colonies.
We're talking like Jamestown here.
Yeah, like, you know, the Puritans and pilgrims, they may have come over with their families, but there are a lot of single men that came over.
And a lot of them, some of them may like run off with an indigenous woman and live with among her tribe and be like, you know what, I'm kind of done building things for Jamestown.
I'm out of here.
So that's no good if they're looking for young men to kind of help build up these young colonies.
And then other ones were just lonely and said, hey, there are no women over here.
What are we supposed to do?
So very early on, they started –
sort of advertising and bringing women, you know, supposedly volunteers over who wanted to come to the colonies and sort of have maybe even more rights than they had back home.
And this is a really good example of kind of like a thread that ran through the first couple centuries of America's founding, which was government sanctioned and supported mail order marriages in order to help build more stable communities.
So the legislatures did things like create laws that made it more attractive for a woman to
to become a mail-order bride in this area.
Like apparently in England, if you became a widow, you got a third of the estate and that was it.
And in places like Virginia and I think Maryland as well, they set up laws that basically said, hey, you're going to keep a lot more than that.
You can run your own business afterward.
Like being a widow is going to rock.
And did we mention also the men are dropping dead like flies over here.
Your husband's probably going to die pretty quick.
So if you don't like him, who cares?
You still get to keep all this inheritance and you get to keep the business and you can't do quite that well for yourself under those circumstances back in England.
So that attracted people.
And that was like the government saying, like, please come over here and marry these strangers that you've never met before.
And, you know, it made sense for a lot of these young women because many of them were, you know, they were from like the servant class, let's say.
So they were looking at years of servitude in England.
And then they basically were like, well, hey, forget all that.
Why don't you just come over here, get married?
And like you said, I think the stat is even one in three marriages lasted 10 years.
So they did kind of sell him on the fact that, yeah, it's not so great.
He'll probably be dead soon enough.
And then you can have his stuff.
Yeah, and it actually, I mean, like that actually did like attract some women.
I think at least, I don't know if we have the number, but there definitely were what they called tobacco wives who came to marry new tobacco planters who were setting up their own fortune.
And I actually had to prove that they were a financial means by donating 150 pounds of gold leaf tobacco to the Virginia company to take part in this, right?
And so that lasted as long as it lasted or as long as it needed to.
And as the eastern colonies started to become more self-sufficient, became less rowdy, became more family-oriented as far as the Europeans were concerned, the need for those mail-order schemes kind of went away.
But then as America kind of expanded further and further west—
the frontier kept recreating itself in different places.
So, you know, it went from the eastern colonies to, you know, along the Mississippi and then further and further out west.
And every time it did that, this new iteration of the frontier was settled by rowdy men and they would have to figure out a way to get women, to attract women to come out to marry the rowdy men so they would stop beating each other up in bar fights and become more productive citizens.
And that kept going on throughout the
the 18th and 19th centuries in the United States.
And, you know, if you're already thinking, guys, this already sounds terrible, these marriages based on these financial arrangements.
And, you know, despite these promises of a better life, like that's kind of what we're talking about.
Like welcome to marriage in the 17th and 18th century.
Don't be so naive.
That's not – that's kind of what it was.
And Dave made a good point.
The notion of marrying for true love, that's a very much like a 20th century proposition.
Even if it wasn't a mail order bride situation, it was someone's dowry or parents sort of arranging marriages and saying this family should marry this family, which still goes on today, I should point out, among like the blue chip and the high society.
Like Arthur had to marry Susan.
You know, let's not forget that.
Everybody with a Habsburg jaw was in an arranged marriage, I'm guessing.
He couldn't marry Liza Minnelli, the young waitress from Queens.
I didn't realize you were making the movie reference.
I thought you were using like Biff and Muffy, like blue blood names.
I got it now.
I got it.
But the point is that marriage was a financial arrangement many and most times back then.
I'm not saying no one ever married because they were in love.
I'm sure that happened.
But it had to tick a lot of boxes back then.
So it was just sort of the way it was.
And so this solved problems for early settlers and for westward expanders.
They made things really attractive in California for women.
They made it easier to divorce your husband if you wanted to.
They made it easier to – or just legal to own and sell – buy and sell land, which is not something you could do at other places in the country.
So they were trying to make it an attractive situation for women to move west because they needed men and women out there.
And I think between 1850 and 1860, the –
The population of women in California increased from 3% to 19% of the total population.
So it was working.
Yeah, it was.
And it wasn't just California, but Washington State also participated.
I think Oregon may have as well.
And there would be these schemes.
And I don't mean scheme like, you know, like dastardly scheme, but like a plan.
A good scheme.
Where like a guy would go around to the bachelors out in like Washington territory and be like, give me a hundred bucks or I think 300 bucks, which is about five grand today.
And I will bring you a suitable wife.
And at least one guy did this.
Asa Mercer was a marriage broker and he would go back east, say, hey, there's like this great place.
booming economy out west.
Why don't you come with me?
And like he would return with like 100 women and some of them would get married immediately.
Some would wait.
But it was like another it was another thing where there was a need for women to stabilize an out of control male population.
And, you know,
Zug points out very fairly in her book that some of these Mercer girls from – they were called from Asa Mercer's operation – became abolitionists.
Some became women's rights advocates and social reformers.
One of them's name was – it was a great name – Mehitable Haskell Elder.
And she organized the 1871 Women's Rights Conference in Olympia, Washington, and recruited one Susan B. Anthony as the territory delegate for the National Women's Suffrage Association Convention.
So, you know, in a lot of cases, these women did find agency and they did get out of a better situation than they were in back east.
Hey, so you want to take a break and then we'll talk about probably what was the real birth of mail-order marriages?
We'll be right back.
The forces shaping the world's economies and financial markets can be hard to spot.
That is where the Big Take from Bloomberg podcast comes in to connect the dots.
Katie, you told me that ETFs are your favorite thing.
Explain that.
Why is that the case?
And unpack what it means for you.
When you start weaponizing outer space, things can potentially go really wrong.
All right, Chuck.
So we've been talking to this point about basically like government sanctioned schemes to kind of stabilize male populations.
There was also at the same time, beginning in the 19th century, I think starting in England, actually in the 18th century, that was kind of simultaneously unfolding.
And that was the matrimonial advertisement industry, which
which to me is like the real birth of the mail order marriage industry that we understand today.
But it was basically the personal ads.
Yeah, it was the birth of personal ads, the birth of dating services.
It's really interesting in that women would put ads in London and then later on in the United States, ads in the paper basically saying, you know, hi, this is who I am.
This is what I'm looking for.
I mean, much like you would see these days in like a dating profile.
And it was a way for them to, you know, to take some agency over avoiding the arranged marriage that their parents had set up for them and maybe get a little bit of choice of suitors.
And I mean, like that is like taking control of your own of your own marriage prospects.
And it was I guess radical is probably a pretty good word, but it picked up.
It caught on, especially in the U.S.
by the end of the 19th century.
It really started to catch on to where there were like magazines that were like dedicated just to matrimonial advertisements.
Like there was the matrimonial news, which is actually the most straight ahead of all of them.
Yeah, I like Cupid's Messenger.
That sounds like a cute one.
What about Heart and Hand?
Heart and Hand.
And then to me, this one, I guess they were just trying to play it really safe.
The Standard Correspondence Club.
Good day to you.
Exactly.
So, yeah, so these things were like kind of popular by the end of the 19th century.
But then it's like you said earlier, by the end of the 19th century, the beginning of the 20th century, our ideas about what constituted marriage or the reasons for marriage had transitioned from financial arrangements into love in America, right?
And so there was simultaneously a popularity of matrimonial advertisements and people taking control of their own marriage prospects, right?
And at the same time, a criticism and a like society generally looking down upon people who did that kind of thing.
So there would be stories in the paper of people like sad sack bachelors or lonely heart widows getting conned or swindled or getting catfished basically is what you'd call it today.
And people love to read that kind of stuff and laugh at their misfortune and look down on these people.
And that's where like the root of what people still do today to the mail-order marriage industry, at least in America, really finds its roots in the 20th century.
Yeah, and this is when things started transitioning to overseas, when American men started bringing in women from foreign countries.
And that's when—
I think that's when it became a bit more of an industry.
And this is when Congress got kind of full-on racist in trying to control this thing.
Because there was, you know, there were women saying, I don't want these women coming into our country and disrupting our feminist agenda that we're trying to push.
There were men saying, we don't want this people from China or Japan coming in here
And, you know, they can have babies once a year.
And they, like, there were senators literally saying these things.
And so they would enact laws like, you know, we're going to be overrun, basically.
So they would enact laws like the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 to ban Chinese immigration.
There was a loophole for Japan with the 1907 Gentleman's Agreement, which basically said if you –
that a Japanese woman and their kids could come over if they were married.
So there were Japanese single men already in the United States that immigrated over here that would get married sight unseen from like a catalog basically in order to gain immigration status for the Japanese women.
And then that ultimately got shut down in 1924 with the Immigration Act, and they just said no Japanese immigration of any kind now after that.
So there was a huge anti-Asian thread from the late 19th century and the early 20th century based on immigration, and a lot of that kind of centered on mail-order marriages.
But then one of the other things that—
really kind of cropped up as a result of mail-order marriages going from, like, women back East or women coming from Europe to women coming from Asia to marry white American men, was there was this idea that the women were nothing more than, like, looking for,
a green card, basically, American citizenship, trying to escape their own country.
And you run into that criticism today, I mean, just as much as you would have back in 1924 when they passed the Immigration Act against Japanese people.
Oh, yeah, because, you know, and this is from Zug's book.
She talks about, you know, Mexican women, Greek women, Asian women, Jewish women, Italian women.
They were much more likely to be deported under an LPC charge, which is a person that is likely to become a public charge, basically, like to come over and sort of live off the government.
If they were from these countries and a way around that was to get married and get that green card.
So that criticism like came pretty straight away, I think.
And then the other one is that that they were basically all just sex workers in disguise coming over under the guise of being mail order brides.
But really, they were coming over here to prostitute themselves and behave immorally.
And again, this is another accusation that you see today, except the the.
The onus has or the focus, the empathy, I guess, has evolved from being put on society, being attacked by these immoral women to the women themselves being trafficked by international criminals.
But it's still generally the same accusation.
It's just been it's just altered itself some, you know what I'm saying?
Yeah, absolutely.
And, you know, that sort of anti-feminist charge from American women saying that, you know, these women from other countries are coming over here and they they do whatever their husbands tell them.
And this is setting us back.
They would say the same thing, though, about war brides.
If you were a soldier in Korea or Vietnam and brought a woman back over.
They would have that same kind of charge levied against them saying the only reason you're bringing these women back is because of the power imbalance that is now gained.
And that can be fair to a certain degree.
There is –
It's really hard to talk about marriage like this without talking about inequity and a power imbalance from the beginning.
Not to say that that doesn't change and that there aren't great success stories where both partners are equal and they both contribute and they both respect one another's viewpoints.
But anytime you are...
in a situation where you are bringing someone over from another country that is escaping a bad situation and looking for a more prosperous situation, and you can provide that and you are paying the money to the service for linking you, there's a power imbalance there from the beginning.
Yeah, well, there's a power imbalance in that, like, you probably don't speak the language as the mail-order bride.
You don't have any friends.
You don't have any family.
You don't have any social structure to depend on.
The only person you have to depend on is your husband.
And if he's not very nice to you or even worse, abusive toward you—
You're in big trouble.
And then it's also, like you said, if you are escaping poverty back home, you might show up with basically no money.
And so if you just found out that this guy is not all he's cracked up to be or he is abusive or he's actually got a terrible criminal record or terrible credit or all sorts of stuff that you wouldn't have otherwise come over for, you're stuck here.
And according to some human trafficking groups, that is a broad definition of human trafficking, where a person is moved from one place to another for financial means and then ends up becoming dependent financially in a situation that they otherwise wouldn't want to be in.
They would not have chosen to put themselves in.
That's as much human trafficking in a broad definition as somebody being kidnapped and forced into sex work.
Yeah, and even if there is no...
you know, no literal violence or abuse, that doesn't mean that it's an equitable situation because someone can essentially be almost a captive in their own home.
Like you said, if they don't speak the language, they have no advocates over here for themselves or friends to help them and speak up for them.
And you can see why it gets a bad rap for sure.
So on the flip side, though...
There have to be men out there who just struck out consistently with America or American women or men and took matters into their own hands and looked abroad.
And the best way to do that is a marriage broker.
And there's plenty of places you can do that.
And then also the other problem with just basically characterizing mail-order brides as –
nothing but like victims ripe for exploitation is to really miss the personalities of a lot of them where to put yourself out there as a mail order bride shows a, um, or demonstrates like a lot of initiative compared to just staying back home and making do with your lot in life.
Like if you're a widow in some countries and you have kids and,
You might not be remarriable.
There might not be anybody who wants to marry you.
And so you're doomed to a life of solitude and single motherhood, whether you like it or not.
So if you just say, OK, well, that's my lot in life.
That's what I'm doing.
OK, fine.
But if you say, you know what?
No, there's another way out.
And it might not be the most tasteful thing that I would have chosen for myself before.
But I really want to make sure my kids are taken care of.
And I'm going to go seek a husband elsewhere.
That shows that demonstrates a lot of self-starter-ness, I guess, that I think kind of undermines a lot of the view of mail-order brides as these kind of like simple-minded, docile women that can't fend for themselves or stick up for themselves.
Yeah, and it's also a real slippery slope to judge.
I mean, we all think like, oh, you should only fall in love with love at first sight, and that should be all it is, and that should be what marriage is based on, full stop.
It's a real slippery slope to judge.
to judge someone else's situation if it's working out for both of them.
If it is a rich old guy in his 60s who is like, you know what, I want to live out the last 15 years of my life with a partner.
And there's a beautiful young Ukrainian woman who's like, you know what, I've got nothing going on over here.
I don't have a lot of prospects.
My country is not, you know, doing me any favors.
And so I'm going to go over and marry some rich guy
and they travel and they do take cruises and they have a good time together like it's a real slippery slope for someone to come in and say well no that's wrong because you guys just didn't meet and fall in love like you know meeting in a bar drunk one night like all Americans again and again that seems to be a long standing criticism that stretches back at least a century here in America too
For sure.
Okay, so enough of that.
Enough of that.
I feel like we should talk about some of the nuts and bolts of the mail-order marriage industry.
Let's do it.
Well, let's start.
So I found this contemporary journalism from 1986.
Oh, you and your...
You're CJ.
In the New York Times.
And they basically just checked in with the mail order marriage industry at the time.
And it gave a really good snapshot of how things used to be.
One of the reasons why mail order brides were called mail order brides because time was that you would find a mail order marriage service.
You would subscribe to that service.
The New York Times says anywhere between $50 to $500 a year.
Well, that was for a catalog.
Annual subscription was $50 to $500.
And then every month or every couple months or maybe twice a month, probably not twice a month, you would get a catalog that was clearly made by somebody who didn't major in catalog making in college.
Of pictures of like a prospective bride, her stats, physical stats, her likes, her dislikes, that kind of thing.
Basically a blurb.
And you'd flip through a catalog and you'd get back in touch with the subscription service and say, I like number 8972.
And I also like thirty seven fifty five.
And you just give them a list of of women that you wanted them to reach out to on your behalf.
And all of a sudden you would start exchanging letters little by little.
You would narrow down the women that you were talking to.
And then you would eventually probably go over and meet one.
And maybe in that trip.
marry them, like have your wedding like the day you meet them or the day after you met them.
And that was pretty standard for the 70s and 80s as far as mail order goes.
And I think into the 90s as well.
Yeah, and of course, it's all online now, and depending on which agency you go through, and like I said, there are thousands, they offer a range of services to bleed you of as much money as they can in the process, whether it's subscription fees or we'll write your first letters for you and translate them for a fee, or if you want to video chat or have phone calls, we can arrange that for a fee.
Everything has a fee.
I think this one – and this is from an Anti-Trafficking International website article.
They said that estimates show people spend about $6,000 to $10,000.
Each client spends about $6,000 to $10,000.
And I think this is for the –
I guess, more high end, more reputable ones.
I think I think some of those places are happy if they get like 500 bucks out of you and then you leave.
Well, I think you can be like a skinflint husband and just do it strictly online and then go meet them and marry them.
But there are ones that offer like tours for like five grand.
Which, depending on the country, may or may not be legal.
Like if you went to Vietnam, it would be illegal.
In Vietnam, mail order marriages, the whole industry is illegal, but it's also rampant there.
And there are like whole hotels where a woman goes and stays and then tours of like guys from Taiwan or South Korea or the United States come through and meet them.
And I think human trafficking people are like, and do God knows what else for money.
And if you hit it off with one, maybe you like start talking to them a little more or you marry them on the spot, that kind of thing.
But there's like there's tours you can go on.
And depending on your view of the mail order marriage industry, it's either a tour where you're going and meeting a lot of prospective brides or it's basically a sex tour to Vietnam.
And they also will do things where it's really hard to not read as a man sort of buying a woman where they say like, well, you know, we'll put them up in this hotel and we'll have them go checked out by our doctors and our psychologists.
They'll have a psychological evaluation and all of this information will be sent to you, the man with the money, to make your decision on whether or not you're going to
sort of pay for this bride.
And it's, it's really hard to look at that any other way than that.
Like you really got to stretch your mind.
And, but then you will read a story about a couple that, that are deeply in love for 20 years on and who had kids in America and who had a great life together.
Uh, and it, and they were like, no, it was really more like an international dating service.
Uh, and they just sort of matchmaked, um, or matchmated, uh,
Made matched.
Matched, made.
I love it.
So it's like, it's just, I don't know if we've ever had a topic where I was so like, all right, well, this doesn't sound too bad.
And like, oh my God, this sounds terrible.
Yeah, I got you.
Yeah, I can't remember.
And that may be the industry, you know.
I think it can be both those things.
Yeah, it makes you—yes.
And it surely is both of those things.
Again, the question is, is one way more than the other?
And if so, which way is it lopsided?
And if so, do we need to, like, follow Vietnam's footsteps and outlaw the marriage, the mail-order marriage industry?
You know what I'm saying?
It's like—
That may be a really big red flag.
Like why did Vietnam outlaw an entire industry that's totally like fine and legal here in the United States?
So – Should we take a break?
Yeah, I think we should take a break.
And we'll talk about mail order marriages in the internet age because things have changed a little bit.
Yeah, and some of the laws.
All right.
We'll be right back.
The forces shaping the world's economies and financial markets can be hard to spot.
Katie, you told me that ETFs are your favorite thing.
Explain that.
Why is that the case?
When you start weaponizing outer space, things can potentially go really wrong.
All right.
Really quickly, this – the great article I found from the Anti-Trafficking International site, they did kind of talk a little bit about what it means for your immigration status and how –
Because they have no recourse.
But even if you do come over as a mail-order bride, and here's basically what happens.
The Immigration Marriage Fraud Amendment, which was enacted in 86, is basically the husband will apply for a spouse or a fiancé visa –
And then the bride has to marry the husband within three months upon arrival in the U.S.
So there's a three-month sort of try-it-out period.
But the bride only has conditional resident status for two years.
So in that two-year period –
um, at the end of which they have to apply jointly for her permanent status as a resident in that conditional two year period.
That is the, the dodgy territory where they're basically like the bride is completely dependent on the husband.
He holds all the cards, uh,
They're very vulnerable at this point.
They may have linguistic isolation and or cultural isolation.
They may not have that social network that we were talking about or be completely economically dependent on the husband.
And they might be afraid that he'll be like, you know what?
It's in that two-year frame.
I can still have you sent home.
So you better be nice.
And this is basically where they're saying this is just sort of a softer version of trafficking.
Even though, and there is real trafficking attached to this.
We're not talking about that.
We're talking about women who do come over voluntarily.
But they still see that as a sort of a softer version of that.
So in that power dynamic and the one where you mentioned where the men were supplied with all the information, where the mail-order brides had basically none about the men, that's changed in the last few years thanks to the Internet and thanks to things like video chat and texting and Facebook and Skype.
And now women are able, just through the simple tools of the Internet—
to be much more discerning and discriminating in the men they choose.
It's not just like I'm going to put myself in a catalog and cross my fingers.
They're putting themselves out there much more, at least ones that are members of legitimate mail-order marriage brokerages, right?
Yeah, and there were very sadly a couple of high-profile murders leading up to –
the International Marriage Broker Regulation Act in 2005.
And this is where things really kind of changed as far as at least trying to help adjust that power dynamic in that if you are a legitimate brokerage agency, you're required to
provide these women with a lot of information now about the men, whether or not they're on state or national sex offender registries, background on their like financials.
They're given information on domestic violence and like
what that looks like, you know, and how to go to the police and stuff like that and that you can do stuff like that.
Arrest history, marital history, residence history, if they have kids.
That's a big one.
All kinds of stuff now that these agencies have to provide about the men for the women.
Yeah, and so...
People who are like, hey, that's not cool, man.
If you were an American woman just dating an American man, you wouldn't have access to that kind of information.
That's really invasive.
It is true.
It's also almost basically a straw man argument because—
An American woman is not going to be in the kind of isolated, completely dependent situation that a mail-order bride is going to be in.
And so the mail-order bride needs a lot more safeguards than just an average American woman is going to need.
So nice try, but that argument doesn't hold water at all.
Yeah, I agree.
You talked earlier at the beginning about a lack of data and statistics.
They don't even really know how often this is happening, much less how many are successful and how many times they end poorly or in abuse and things like that.
There are a few numbers out there.
I think the – how do you pronounce that?
I want to say Tahiri.
Tahiri Justice Center, they estimate between 11,000 and 16,000 women immigrate each year through a marriage broker.
The INS has it more like four to 6,000.
So you kind of can't really tell how much this is even going on.
So it's really hard to, you know, like you said, if you don't have the data for noobs like us, it's kind of hard to form a hard opinion.
Right, but it's not just noobs like us who don't have the data.
Like, no one has the data.
So it's like, you know, no one can form a hard opinion.
And in that case, you have to treat it on like a case-by-case basis.
And like, if you have nothing but anecdotal data or evidence...
You can't just say like, yes, the mail order marriage industry is just a front for human trafficking and sex trafficking.
That is a moral panic that you've just started right there.
So we have to go out and get the data.
But at the same time, that doesn't mean you can't simultaneously offer support to women who might be suffering from that.
Like what if it turns out to be true?
Like, yeah, it's all just a big front for human trafficking and these women need help.
So roll out the red carpet, like get those services broadcast, like figure out how to get them help if they need it and see if anybody comes out of the woodwork in the meantime while you're conducting those studies to come up with that data one way or another.
Can't hurt.
It's just money.
And that's a pretty good thing to spend money on if you ask me.
Yeah, I agree.
There are some studies that show spousal abuse rates are about three times higher.
But this is just for immigrant women married to U.S.
husbands.
I think that includes all immigrant women.
I don't think it's just mail order situations.
That's right.
So that's data that doesn't exactly help.
But it does shine a light on that power dynamic as a whole, I think.
Yeah, and I couldn't tell.
Dave mentioned that there were three murdered women, mail-order brides in the United States, I think between 2010 and 2020 maybe.
And if using the high number that the Tahiri Justice Center uses for how many came over every year, you get 160,000 of them.
So three murders out of 160,000 population is, I think, 0.18%.
But out of all the married women in America, it's like 64 million married women, 17,250 on average died, were murdered by their partner in that same time, which is 2.6%.
So I probably got the math wrong, but if it is right, then that means you're actually less likely to be murdered by your husband as a mail-order bride than you are just as an American woman who was married and just part of the general population.
So that's great.
That's one of the stats you can't feel good about.
No, exactly.
That's a great, that is an excellent point for sure, Chuck.
I mean, I think it shines a light that we need to basically do away with spousal murder.
I think we can all get behind that, right?
Yeah, what it does, though, again, is it makes you think maybe let's concentrate on the real problems.
And if that's not – if the mail-order bride situation isn't the real problem, then we just – and we all know this, but we have a real domestic violence problem in this country anyway.
Yeah, it's the same thing.
What was the last one we talked about?
Oh, the stranger danger, where it was like, oh, no, actually –
Your cousin is going to, like, rape and murder you way more frequently than just some strangers, but let's all concentrate on the stranger.
Your spouse is possibly going to murder you, but let's ignore that and concentrate on mail-order brides being murdered instead, even if it's just much less of a chance.
Like, that's the definition of a moral panic, and you've got to sort those out because they obfuscate important things.
Yeah, and, you know, at the beginning of the episode, you mentioned LGBTQ rights.
That's why we call it mail-order marriages now, because in 2013, with the Supreme Court striking down parts of the Defense of Marriage Act, it allowed, and there has been, you know, since then, sort of a big-time rise in LGBTQ people doing the exact same thing.
And a lot of times, these people in other countries are literally forced
fleeing for their life because they have no rights in their own country as a person from that community.
So that's one of those where you look at and you're like, they could literally be saving someone's life by getting them out of their country over here.
Yeah, that's right.
And men do it too.
I saw there was a – I was curious about mail-order husbands and if that was even a thing.
And apparently Ireland –
in recent years has got some of this going on where these Irish men are putting themselves out there and saying, hey, I'm a strapping young Irish man and I'm happy to come marry you and live in your country.
Very nice.
That's a thing in Ireland.
Did not know that.
I had no idea either, but leave it to Ireland to just try something new.
So good for you, Ireland.
Good for you.
You got anything else on mail order marriages?
I got nothing else.
I can take off my roller skates now.
This one was danger at every turn.
I thought you did great.
I thought we did great.
It's good.
I'm pretty sure.
Oh, God, I hope so.
Well, if you want to know more about mail-order marriages, go check it out and see what you think for yourself.
Don't take our words for it.
And since I said don't take our words for it, it's time for Listener Mail.
Listener mail, this is a sad case, so a bit of a trigger warning here, especially if you lost a family member to COVID.
But I've had a back and forth with this gentleman, and he really felt strongly about reading this on the air in the name of getting people vaccinated.
Hey, guys, haven't written in quite some time.
Been listening since 2008.
You've been around for so many personal milestones, even though we've never met, even though I did ask you the best question ever at your live show in Phoenix.
My father taught me how to play guitar.
I've been playing for nearly 30 years because of his influence.
There's never been a question of Gibson or Fender in my family.
It's always been clear we're a Fender family.
He played a Strat and I played a Tele.
This last Tuesday, I said goodbye to my father.
COVID had done its job and completely overtaken his body.
After he passed later that day, I went into my truck and took a few minutes and decided I needed some Josh and Chuck.
to get my mind off of things, and I was absolutely shocked.
On that day, Leo Fender and Les Paul came through in my feed.
My father and I did not have anything we bonded over more than our love of music and playing guitar, an affinity for Fender, and a dislike of all things Gibson.
Sorry, Chuck.
There could not have been more perfect topic to help me through one of the hardest days of my life.
I look forward to someday when I might be able to shake your hands after a good hand washing and sanitization.
And just thank you for being with me through so many good days and so many bad days.
And he included a song that he gave his father that he wrote for him.
It's great.
And this is from Eddie.
And Eddie said...
Please read this on the air.
He said, my mother decided to get vaccinated because of this and they were not vaccinated.
And he said, just please send the message out to people that it can happen to you and your family and just go out there and get that vaccination already.
Thanks for that, Eddie.
And definitely our condolences on your father's passing.
I'm really sorry to hear that.
But I'm glad we could bring you a little measure of comfort at a terrible time.
So thank you for letting us know about that.
And also thank you for telling everybody to get vaccinated because it's a pretty good thing to use your position for.
So I think like Eddie said, go get vaccinated.
Yeah, we said it.
Go get vaccinated.
And in the meantime, if you want to get in touch with us, you can send us an email to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.
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Hey, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's here too.
And this is a good old-fashioned stuff you should know medical mystery episode.
Look at Jerry over there.
She's just sitting there.
And what you can do is, I don't know if you know this, Josh, if you walk over to Jerry and take her hand off the keyboard and raise it above her head, she'll just keep it there until you move it back down.
Well, Chuck, it sounds a lot to me like Jerry might have chronic encephalitic lethargica.
I think you might be right.
I might be right.
I might be partially right.
I think I would have been more right if I had called it encephalitis lethargica.
But that's probably what she has if those are her symptoms.
That's right.
File this under medical mysteries and also file it under a Julia jam.
But we're basically going to call it EL or encephalitis lethargica here and there.
It was also known as the sleepy sickness, sometimes the sleeping sickness, although there's a new sleeping sickness that is not to be confused with the previous one.
No, it's spread by the tsetse fly and it's epidemic.
I don't think it's endemic yet in Africa.
And it has got a couple of similar symptoms, but they're in no way related from what I understand.
That's right.
We're talking about an outbreak that happened in the early 20th century in Europe, starting in about 1916.
wherein all of a sudden people would kind of out of nowhere, they would lose mobility.
Some people would fall into like a coma-like state or a sleep-like state.
Many, many people would die within days.
And it reached epidemic proportions in at least four continents by 1919, killed hundreds of thousands of people.
And it's a medical mystery because we still don't know exactly why.
why it happened or why it just kind of suddenly went away.
Yeah, where it came from, what caused it, nothing.
We don't know almost anything about it.
They just kind of know the symptoms enough that when you see the very, very, very rare case come along these days, you can say, I think this actually is encephalitis lethargica.
And there was something you said about people being struck into like a coma or sleep like state.
The people who are struck with encephalitis lethargica, they weren't like laying there like Sleeping Beauty on their backs with like their hands crossed over their chest.
Like it was like you're saying, like they might have their hand in the air and their mouth open and like a silent scream and their eyes were open.
They just weren't moving.
And they were just sitting like that.
That's the kind of like horrible symptom that you could suffer from for decades.
Like once that started, it might just keep going on for the rest of your life, even though this happened to you in childhood.
Yeah, exactly.
And there's a bit of a reveal that we're going to hang on to here.
But we're going to start off with not a reveal, because that's not how you do things in the three-act structure.
Not in the podcast biz.
We're going to start out in 1916 with a Dr. Konstantin von, is it Economo or Economo?
I like the first one.
That's like saying, is it economy or economy?
This sounds to me like a Cosmo Kramer alias.
Why don't you just tell me the name of the movie you want to see?
I'll never not laugh at that bit.
No, it's a good one.
So he was a doctor at the University of Vienna's Psychiatric Neurological Clinic.
And he started seeing some some strange cases come through his office in 1916 where the symptoms were, you know, they had diagnoses on the charts, things like meningitis or MS or delirium.
But the symptoms weren't matching these things or anything else that he could think of.
And the first thing he did was ruled out neurological toxins, infections and neurological disorders, and then was like, all right, I'm open here.
Let's like no one knows what this is and we need to figure it out.
So let's sort of put our minds to this thing.
Yeah, he dove in.
He started describing it.
He wasn't actually the first one to describe it.
I think he was actually beaten by a couple of days, even though some people say it was the opposite way around, by a French physician named Dr. René Crouchet.
The difference was Dr. Crouchet's take was that this was maybe a behavioral disorder.
And Dr. Economo, Von Economo said, no, this is like clearly some sort of infection or something like that.
It's an epidemic.
It's transmissible.
So that's why this is sometimes called Von Economo encephalitis.
It was essentially named after him because he was the guy who said, this is what's going on.
This is what I think is going on.
Check out these nutso symptoms.
Not so nuts at first, because when people would come in at first, they had basically looked like the flu.
You know, fever, coughing, you know, kind of what you would think of.
Everyone's had the flu, right?
I don't have to.
Yeah, there you go.
I watched Zoolander recently.
You know, a picture is worth a thousand words.
A Josh impression of the flu is worth at least 20 of my words.
All right, thanks.
Was that part of Zoolander?
Yeah, he had the black lung.
When he went back home to mine coal with his dad.
Oh, I love that dumb movie.
It is a really great dumb movie.
I was like, this is pretty great still.
So flu-like symptoms at first, then just a huge array of neurological symptoms that were really inconsistent among the patients, the severity of which was pretty inconsistent.
Sometimes it varied widely from one to another.
But one of the most common threads of these neurological symptoms was something called hypersomnolence.
which is just really, really sleepy, like feeling really sleepy.
And then eventually it could lead to that coma-like state where you're just sort of locked in.
So here's the thing.
So the sleep, the type of sleep, though, that is common among people struck with encephalitis lethargica is not what you would consider sleep.
They're not getting rest.
You can wake them very easily.
They are probably semi-aware of what was going on around them the whole time they were sleeping.
But they couldn't not fall asleep.
Another thing that sometimes gets chalked up under this hypersomnolence is freezing mid-action.
Like maybe they're taking a bite of broccoli.
That's a bad example because they probably are like, I can't make myself eat this broccoli.
It's so disgusting.
But let's say they're eating like a delicious animal cracker and they stopped mid-bite.
They're they might not move again or they might like hear a song or something like that.
And all of a sudden they start eating the the the animal cracker again.
Yeah, it's not.
The point is, it's called the sleeping sickness.
It's not sleep as you would understand it.
That's good to clear that up.
Because sleeping sickness sounds pretty good to me right about now.
It kind of does.
Half of these cases is pretty wide age range.
About half of them were in people age 10 to 30.
Like I said, a lot of the patients died.
Sometimes they died within like a week or two after onset of symptoms.
There was one case of a girl who was walking home from a concert, suddenly experienced a paralysis, fell asleep within about a half hour and died less than two weeks later.
There was also some weird stuff, as we'll see, that had to do with psychiatric symptoms, where sometimes people would be fine after suffering from this for a couple of weeks, but their personality would have changed.
There was one report of, I guess a study found four reports of people who developed kleptomania after having suffered this and then ostensibly were cured from it.
So it could really mess with your head, essentially, in just about any way your head can be messed with.
Did Winona Ryder claim that?
Remember when she was stealing stuff?
Oh, yeah, I remember.
It was a big deal.
She came back pretty strong, which I'm glad.
I like Winona Ryder.
She does a great job in Stranger Things.
Oh, she's awesome in everything she's ever been in.
Heather's Dude is one of the all-time great movies.
She was great in Mermaids.
And then, yeah, all the way through to Beetlejuice.
I'm not going to say Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, but definitely Beetlejuice.
And then Stranger Things, sure.
Yeah, and a great crush of much of Gen X.
Both dudes and chicks.
You got that straight.
We're talking Gen X. You still say dudes and chicks?
Gen X says that.
Yeah, they do.
All right, so Von Economo was studying all these people.
He was studying corpses of these people.
He finally breaks it down into its subgroups, the first of which is acute EL.
That is the initial sickness that you're going to get.
We talked about the flu-y kind of stuff that you get and all these neurological symptoms that are going to follow.
Then he broke those down into three forms, from most common to least common, starting with the most common, somnolent ophthalmologic symptoms.
How would you say that?
Ophthalmologic?
Ophthalmoplegic.
That's what I'm going with.
That's the most deadly form.
More than half the patients die when they have this form.
This is a really overwhelming sleepiness.
But like you said, you're aware, you're easy to wake up.
The optimal part is ocular paralysis.
So you're not moving your eyes.
So if people come and they wave their hand in front of your face, your eyes aren't moving or anything like that.
And also those neuropsychiatric symptoms that you were talking about, like delirium sometimes, confusion, catatonia, stupor, stuff like that.
There was also the worst report that I saw.
And like, I didn't see anything like this, but I checked and it does seem to have been a case report of a girl from the 30s who basically had a psychotic break because of it.
And she pulled out all of her own teeth and gouged out both of her eyes.
A little girl did because of this.
And again, it's just some weird outlier symptom.
But as you see, we get further and further into this.
It's just the brain getting eaten up somehow, some way in some fairly predictable region.
So it's creating this whole cascade or galaxy of different symptoms that are just the worst things that can happen to your brain happening.
The next subgroup, the next least common, or I guess the next most common, depending on which way you're looking at it, is hyperkinetic.
That is mania, basically, is the big part of this one.
You have a manic phase, involuntary vocalizations and kind of herky-jerky movements, and then a hypomanic phase where there's a lot of fatigue, a lot of weakness.
You can hallucinate.
You can have nerve pain in your limbs and in your face.
And this is one of the odder symptoms is your sleep pattern will flip from day to night or, I guess, night to day if you were a factory worker or something.
And there's another thing with that sleeping sickness part, you know, like your sleep is messed up.
I also saw, Chuck, that in at least one of these, people might also be super sleepy but not be able to fall asleep no matter how hard they try, which sounds worse to me than most of the other stuff.
There's a third one that he said is the least common, but it's also a way that it can present.
It's called amniostatic akinetic, which is you can't move, akinesis.
And this is kind of what the classic idea of what encephalitis lethargica looks like, where you're just sitting there with like, yeah, your right arm's in the air, your left arm's
A little further down, your mouth's open.
You're basically a statue, essentially, is how it's described.
You're frozen in place, and you're not going to move until somebody maybe puts some slight pressure on your arm, and then maybe you'll move it down.
But it's not like they're just going to put pressure on your arm for a second, and then you move your arm down.
They have to move your arm down.
And this is what's called waxy flexibility.
You can pose somebody in this state,
any way that you want them to.
So you have to be very kind when you're dealing with patients like this.
I could not help but think that Waxy Flexibility sounds like an album title.
Like guided by voices or somebody.
Is that a real band?
Yeah, they're Funky Town people.
Oh, Waxy Flexibility.
Guided by Voices.
What was I thinking?
This is the biggest part to me that's, I guess, part of all of this because of the sleeping part.
The people suffering this, including the people who are wax figures frozen in place for years or decades, potentially, are
are there mentally.
They're not like locked in, as in locked in syndrome, where they know every single thing that's going on around them at all times.
But they're essentially in the same boat where they're aware of stuff.
They're aware of time passing.
There are people coming and going and interacting with them.
They cannot...
They can't speak.
They can't change their position of their eyes.
They can't focus their attention.
They can't do anything that would suggest to anyone that they are there in any way, shape or form.
And it wasn't until a genuine medical miracle took place that we understood, oh my God, these people have been there in their heads the whole time.
They're not just like comatose, like just completely out of consciousness.
They're conscious.
Yeah, for sure.
And, you know, earlier I said like they're locked in.
I didn't mean the literal locked in syndrome.
I just meant sort of, you know, look like they're locked in.
I didn't take it like that.
But I think people might have.
Well, come on, guys.
We don't know how many cases there were.
It was a legitimate pandemic, though.
It's one of those things that was hard to diagnose.
They think it was underdiagnosed and reported.
Estimates run from 500,000 to more than a million.
But they think that maybe half of the cases weren't even reported.
So who knows how many it could have been.
And about a third of them died.
A third survived and were kind of OK.
And then a third survived and then got it again later on.
And that is acute EL.
So maybe we should take a break and talk about chronic EL after this.
We'll be right back.
Chicago, a white woman's murder, a black man behind bars for a crime he didn't commit.
A corrupt detective.
A snitch and a life stolen.
Where I embark on a noble quest to understand the brilliant chaos of youth culture.
Daddy's looking good.
Each week I invite someone fascinating to join me.
Actors, musicians, creatives, highly evolved digital life forms.
Like when a kid says brah to me.
Join me and my delightful guests every Thursday, and let's get weird together in a good way.
Listen to What Are We Even Doing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Okay, Chuck, so a lot of the stuff I was talking about, about people being frozen in place as if they were statues, they had waxy flexibility, mutism, catatonia, they weren't able to respond or move or anything.
When I said for like years or decades,
More accurately, I would have been referring to the chronic form of encephalitis lethargica because it was essentially, it seems to me, kind of like amniostatic akinetic, but for years and years.
The scariest part about all this was that you had gone through the standard case of encephalitis lethargica, one of those three that we just talked about.
and got better.
You may have died.
You may have gotten better, but maybe you had like behavior changes, like you turned into a kleptomaniac or something like that.
Or you got better and thought everything was fine, but then you suddenly suffered from being just a ton of bricks being dropped on you.
And all of a sudden you can't move for the rest of your life, even though it's been 10 years since you had that case of encephalitis lethargica.
Yeah, for sure.
The chronic is much the same as the earlier, but with a few added symptoms, one of which is very, very strange.
You can have mood swings, pretty normal.
Feelings of euphoria and maybe even an increased libido, which is not the weirdest thing.
Psychosis in about 30% of patients, again, not the most abnormal thing in the world, but excessive silliness and the use of puns was an actual symptom that they saw over and over again in acute cases.
Isn't that bizarre?
Or not acute in chronic cases.
But again, the defining trait, the one that people would point to and be like, oh, that person has chronic encephalitis lethargica, is that statue thing that I was talking about.
And that's more clinically called rather than that statue thing.
Doctors tend to call it post-encephalitic Parkinsonism.
And Parkinsonism is one of those difficult things to grasp until you just stop trying to think too hard about it.
It's essentially a bunch of movement and neurological symptoms and dysfunctions.
And Parkinson's includes Parkinsonism, but not all Parkinsonism is Parkinson's disease.
That's right.
It took me way longer than I care to admit to finally just nail that down and stop running in circles trying to figure it out.
Yeah, I mean, I think they even, one of the reasons they call it post-encephalitic Parkinsonism, Parkinsonism?
Parkinsonism.
Jeez, that's a tough one.
Or PEP is to distinguish it from Parkinson's, which isn't exactly the same thing.
Yeah, and one of the big things that distinguish it, because that shares a lot of symptoms, but one of the things that distinguishes post-encephalitic Parkinsonism and Parkinson's disease is that Parkinson's disease progresses gradually in a predictable pattern.
Post-encephalitic Parkinsonism, like I said, it can come out of the blue.
You could be, again, sitting there eating an animal cracker, and all of a sudden, you never finish eating that animal cracker for the rest of your life.
It just can suddenly come out of nowhere.
And you're just living your normal life.
And then all of a sudden you're in an institution and you're bound never to move again unless you happen to be in the right place at the right time in the late 1960s.
That's right, and this is the big reveal.
If you were hearing these symptoms and you think, hey, that sounds awfully familiar, I think I saw a movie about that, then you're correct.
This is the movie from the book Awakenings, based on neurologist Oliver Sacks' book of the same name, about his work with EL patients in the 1960s.
I think there were 80 chronic EL patients he worked with at Beth Abraham Hospital in the Bronx, New York, in 1966.
So when this came around and Oliver Sacks was in there, EL had gone away, basically.
It was a medical footnote.
And not a lot of people in the 1960s even knew much about it because it was one of those things that, like, they never figured out what it was or how it started or how to cure it or anything.
It kind of just went away.
So all the doctors were like, all right, thank God.
I guess we don't have to worry about that anymore.
And they just moved on to their other work.
There was a 1985 NPR interview where he was talking about motionless figures who were transfixed in strange postures, sometimes rather dramatic postures, sometimes not, with an absolute absence of motion without any hint of motion.
So everything looked frozen.
And that was, you know, Robert De Niro's character in the movie Awakenings.
And all the others that he eventually grabbed together.
And assembled.
When's the last time you saw Awakenings?
It's been a while.
I think I remember thinking it was a pretty good movie back then, though.
It's a great movie.
I watched it last night.
Who directed that?
Do you know?
Oh, was that Penny Marshall?
She did a great job.
It was great.
I mean, like, I don't remember if De Niro got an Oscar or not, but if he didn't, that's one of the all-time great snubs.
He did amazing.
I forgot how wonderful Robin Williams is, too.
Just, man, what a great guy that dude was.
I was watching a thing with him this morning and very, very sad stuff.
What were you watching?
It was an Instagram post of him with his mother and his mother making him laugh.
And I think the whole point of the post was like, you rarely got to hear Robin Williams like genuine laugh.
And I heard it and I was like, yeah, I don't know if I really ever heard that.
And his mom made him laugh that hard.
It was really sweet.
Can you do an impression?
It was kind of a ha ha ha thing.
Oh, I mean, not like that, but yeah.
It was exuberant, but it was like, ha, ha, ha, ha.
Not like my goofy childish laugh.
So good movie.
And it was 100% based on this.
So much so that it's funny.
They went to the trouble of changing the names of the changed names that Oliver Sacks had in the book.
So Awakenings actually is pretty...
And in a lot of ways, I mean, there's a lot of like movie stuff, literary license in there.
But for the most part, it's pretty faithful to Oliver Sacks book.
And again, it's nonfiction like Sacks is a neurologist or he was a great neurologist and a great writer, too.
So he didn't take a lot of literary license as far as I understand.
So the movie being close to the book means the movie was fairly close to real life.
And one of the tests that Oliver Sacks conducted was he would demonstrate that these people had demonstrated what's called paradoxical kinesia, where
Somebody who seemingly can't move and hasn't moved for days, months, however long it was since the last time somebody moved them could suddenly move in a way that they just should not be able to.
And the way that he demonstrates it in the movie, and I believe in the book he did this too, was he would toss them a ball.
And all of a sudden somebody who's just sitting there with their hands in the air and their face frozen in this mask, this expressionless mask, just suddenly moves their hand without even moving their eyes and catches the ball.
And that was, I think, again, at least in the movie, I haven't read the book.
how he identified people in this, what they call the chronic hospital that he worked at in the Bronx by finding somebody who kind of fit these symptoms and then tossing a ball at them.
And there's a very cute, funny part where he does it to one person and she gets hit in the face and is like, ow, why'd you do that?
She clearly didn't have encephalitis lethargica.
It's pretty cute.
It sounded a couple of minutes ago, like you said, Oliver's sex.
I know, and I didn't correct myself.
You're an all-time great conversation analyst, though, for noticing that.
Well, I just, I mean, that's a different movie altogether.
Yeah, also called Awakening, so.
God, was that a couple minutes ago?
Have I been talking that much?
Oh, I have no sense of time.
It might have been 10 seconds.
That was amazing, Chuck.
You've been killing it with the jokes lately.
One of the things you mentioned there is like they could catch a ball or something.
Another thing that would happen, like he said, that if there was an emergency, like another patient falls on the floor, all of a sudden somebody who like previously has not moved for days or weeks or months might just leap up out of their wheelchair and assist them and then sit back down and go back to their statue pose.
And that phenomenon that you're talking about is that's the big key difference between PEP and Parkinson's disease is called kinesioparadoxical, where you're switching, you know, between mobility and immobility.
And that is not something that happens generally in Parkinson's.
No, but I saw that it does some.
So, yeah, but I think for the most part, it's more associated with chronic encephalitis lethargica, right?
So this original thing, where this disease, this mysterious disease, encephalitis lethargica, suddenly appeared out of nowhere in 1915-16, ravaged the world for 10 years, and then just vanished.
And like you said, led a whole generation of neurologists off the hook for having to explain what it was.
Like, they really tried.
Like, people like Von Economo really tried to figure this out.
I think 9,000 papers were written during this epidemic.
And there were some things that they kind of were able to pin down.
But the big, big questions were just left unanswered.
We just don't know.
Like, one of the big ones is, how do you even catch this terrible disease?
Like, is it contagious or not?
They still didn't have a definitive answer at the end of their study on that.
Evidence on transmission was really, really mixed.
There were a couple of anecdotal cases that kind of illustrate that.
One of them that was among seven members of a family in a small apartment.
Only one family member got sick.
Another case, there was a girl living at something called the Derby and Derbyshire Rescue and Training Home.
showed signs of EL, and then very soon, within two weeks, 12 of the 21 residents got sick.
So, you know, both cases, like one looks clearly contagious.
The other one doesn't look like it's at all contagious.
So they didn't know.
Maybe they thought some people might be immune.
Maybe there were different strains that were contagious or had different levels of contagiousness.
Or maybe it's just something that they never figured out.
And I was wondering, too, if the 12 of the 21 residents getting sick at that one home was maybe just a case of mass hysteria or something like that.
Interesting.
No, I think half of the people who got sick died within 10 days of falling ill.
So they were not.
Yeah, that was not mass hysteria.
So that is just a genuine mystery, right?
Like, this just doesn't make any kind of sense whatsoever.
So they started trying to rule out things they thought it wasn't.
One was environmental causes.
So that would make it toxic encephalitis.
And I don't even know if we said at the outset, did you think that encephalitis is swelling of the brain and spinal cord?
I didn't say that.
It's good to know.
The thing is, is encephalitis is not just specific to encephalitis lethargica.
A lot of different things can make your brain and central nervous system swell.
A disturbing amount of things can make that happen, actually, if you stop and think about it.
And one of those things is environmental toxins.
So that's toxic encephalitis.
And that got ruled out very quickly because there just was no pattern whatsoever where everybody was exposed to, you know...
Like a Tesseract made of kryptonite or something like that for our nerd fans.
Yeah, that's good.
I tried to touch you guys' bone and just screwed it up royally.
So I'm sorry.
I think I may have just conflated DC and Marvel.
I'm dead, dude.
No, I love it.
I love it, man.
You should meld those.
Superman meets Thanos.
I want to see those dudes fight.
Oh, that'd be great.
I'm sure that would be a really interesting fight to watch.
Somebody's going to write in and say, actually, guys, it happened in 1987 when...
You know, some dude put out a comic.
I suspect that those people aren't going to speak to us any longer.
I think you're right.
So, like you said, they rule that out, the toxic exposure.
Then they move on to an infectious kind of possibility, infectious encephalitis, in fact.
And that can be, you know, infectious encephalitis is a thing.
So it's not like we think it's that.
That was already a thing.
It can be secondary to bacterial or fungal or viral or parasitic infection.
It's usually a virus.
It's the most common type of encephalitis.
It could be like from the herpes virus or maybe measles or West Nile even, influenza.
And considering how this
went on during the Spanish flu initially, which happened in 1918, and there were flu-like symptoms, they thought that, you know, this probably, early on at least, was an influenza-led infectious encephalitis.
And that was, I think, Von Economo's leading theory, which makes a lot of sense because they tracked with one another, like you said, at least the start.
So was this just some horrible strain of Spanish flu that managed to continue on for years after Spanish flu?
And I think that was incontrovertibly proven incorrect because actually when I did The End of the World, I talked about this guy who went up and dug up the corpse of an Inuit woman who had died from Spanish flu to get enough of the genome of it to bring the Spanish flu back to life to study it.
It's one of the most...
breathtakingly arrogant moments in all of science for somebody to do that.
But the reason we know that encephalitis lethargica wasn't caused by the Spanish flu is because we had the Spanish flu genome and we couldn't find any Spanish flu RNA in collections of tissue samples of brains of people who definitely died from encephalitis lethargica.
Spanish flu wasn't there.
Ergo, it wasn't Spanish flu.
And because Josh is always too humble to say so after an end of the world reference, everyone, if you don't know, Josh had a great solo album, a eight part or 10 part.
It was a 10 part subtitled Waxy Flexibility.
The End of the World with Josh Clark, wherein he, one episode at a time, examined 10, I can't think of the word.
Existential risks.
Existential risks that could face humanity, some of which are currently underway.
Thanks a lot, Chuck.
I appreciate that.
That was really nice of you.
It's very great.
You got to be a smarty pants.
But even if you're not a smarty pants, you should still give it a shot, I think.
Because I gave it a shot and I'm not a smarty pants.
Hey, you are a smarty pants, but yes, smarty pants or no, I think everybody can be equally scared by this.
Yeah, you did live shows too.
So if you have a time machine on your hands, go back and see one of those while you're at it.
And come talk to us if you have an actual working time machine as well.
That'd be pretty neat.
Streptococcal infection was another possibility at one point.
There was some data that showed infection with streptococcal bacteria was in front of some of these cases of EL.
And in 1931, our old pal, Dr. Yvonne Economo, did an experiment and streptococcus vaccination actually led to an EL-like condition in dogs.
It's just sad, but... Yeah.
The thing is, the thing that makes it even more sad is it wasn't definitive.
They weren't like, oh, it's a strep infection.
It was like, I guess it could have been.
There was another group called the Matheson Commission that studied encephalitis lethargica because a guy, ostensibly by the last name of Matheson, I couldn't find out who it was.
He was a wealthy businessman from America who had been struck down by encephalitis lethargica.
I believe he had gotten better, but not fully.
And so he used some money to try to get to the bottom of this and funded this commission for 13 years.
They put out four different reports and basically at the end said, maybe herpes?
We don't know.
And he said, your funding's cut off.
I've gotten into Sherlock Holmes societies.
At the end of all that dough for that many years, you come back with maybe herpes?
Are you kidding me?
At the very least, give me herpes too.
That reminds me when I was a kid, I'll never forget one of the first headlines that ever sunk in with me because I was a Who's the Boss fan a little bit at the time.
It had to be the Enquirer or something, but it was Tony Danza gave me herpes.
And I looked like just yesterday to see if Tony Danza actually had ever given anyone herpes.
And it does not seem to be the case.
I don't believe Tony Danza has herpes.
So that headline was totally made up.
And I hope Tony Danza got some money from that for suing the Enquirer.
Oh, we should issue that correction, too.
You got that Tony Danza band name wrong.
In the metal episodes.
Do you know what the correct one was?
Well, what do you what did you call it?
I think I call it the Tony Danza tap dance experience.
Is that not it?
I think if that's what you said, I think it was a tap dance extravaganza.
Or it's the other way around.
Whichever one you said was wrong.
That's fine.
I can live with that.
Yeah, yeah, we had a few metal people write in about that.
So can't, you know, can't not correct the Tony Danza tap dance extravaganza.
I'll bet they were nice, though.
Like, to a person, pretty much, all the metal fans that wrote in said, even the ones correcting us were like, that was great.
Yeah, that's the metal way.
All right, shall we take our other break?
All right, we'll be right back.
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So we mentioned some people studying, you know, different causes back in the day.
They never could find anything out, like we said.
And for about 30 years, they just kind of left it there.
And it was in the late 1960s when neurology researchers that were working on Parkinson's
really hit on it when they developed L-DOPA, or levodopa, which is a substitute for dopamine, which is the missing neurotransmitter, and Parkinson's disease.
And it was released in 1967, and it brought akinetic Parkinson's disease patients back to life.
And if you've seen the movie Awakenings, that's basically a big storyline.
That's where it picks up is when Oliver Sacks scores some L-DOPA.
Off a guy selling it on the corner below Beth Abraham Hospital.
So he finally starts with Leonard Lowe, who's Robert De Niro, not the patient's real name, obviously.
But there's just this amazing transformation where all of a sudden these people, again, who are these frozen statue like people and have been for decades.
of their lives suddenly like are like aware and talking and like focusing their attention on you.
And one guy's playing the piano and they're like going out on field trips now.
It's like they were just completely brought out of it.
And that supposedly was very much the case with people with actual Parkinson's disease.
Like they responded beautifully to L-DOPA.
But one of the reasons, one of the indicators that post-encephalitic Parkinsonism and Parkinson's disease are different is that the people in awakenings, the people with encephalitis lethargica, they responded well for a little while and then they started to show other symptoms that really kind of...
For some of them, it basically meant you can't take L-DOPA anymore.
And incredibly sadly, like one of the most sad things I can think of, they were left to just go back to the frozen statue state again.
And don't forget, there is a great level of consciousness within them when they're in the state.
So they came out of that state in which they were conscious, came to full consciousness and full interactivity, and maybe even left the hospital on a field trip and then had to go back
To their frozen statue state, again, conscious of this whole experience.
Yeah, very heartbreaking to see in that movie.
There was one case of a woman who, is this the Rose of which you spoke of to me privately?
Yeah, that was Rose.
And then Lucy was her name in the movie for some reason.
OK, well, this woman, just one of the cases of Oliver Sacks, she she came out of it and she basically described like being aware of everything that was happening for decades and understanding what was happening, but just not feeling a connection to it.
Like there was this weird disconnect.
She knew about Pearl Harbor.
She described knowing about the assassination of Kennedy, John F., that is.
And she said that it just didn't seem real.
She said, nothing has seemed real since 1926 when I got the encephalitis and came to a stop.
I know I'm 64 now, and this is 1969, and that I'm an elderly woman in a bizarre situation in a chronic hospital, but I feel like I'm 21, and I feel like it's 1926.
Man, can you imagine?
Yeah, and very sadly, she was one of the ones who did not have her symptoms with L-DOPA were too extreme to continue on taking L-DOPA.
And some people, you know, came out and were just overjoyed and elated with this kind of thing, obviously.
And some people came out and obviously you could also see had a very hard time with lost decades.
It could not have been an easy thing to accept either way.
The movie that there is good news.
There is a bit of a silver lining because the movie does not cover the fact that.
that after this, a lot of the patients finally regulated with the L-DOPA and were able to leave, at least lead compared to sort of their previous life, a somewhat healthy life, like they weren't in that statuesque locked-in state.
They might not have fully recovered, but they led an okay life.
And they do mention that at the end.
In one of those, I guess, epilogues or postscripts where they talk about how they continued on experimenting and some people it kind of worked out with a little bit.
But they don't show it in the movie.
The movie is all sad at the end.
It's so sad.
Just go watch Awakenings again.
I accidentally watched Patch Adams first, and I wanted to watch Awakening so bad, I still watched it after Patch Adams, after Zoolander, and then I finally watched Awakening.
I was up until like four in the morning today, last night.
I never saw Patch Adams.
Oh, it's not good.
That was sex, too, though, right?
No, it was just Robin Williams, too.
It was no Awakenings, I'll tell you that.
Yeah, I need to check that out.
It's funny, I met a guy named Leonard Lowe one time years ago, and the only thing I could think in my head was, my name is Leonard Lowe.
Like, I just remember De Niro saying that.
You didn't say that to him?
No, because I figured, you know, like our listener Robert Paulson, he's probably tired of those jokes.
I never stop saying that to Robert Paulson.
I can't help myself.
So what about these days?
What do we think about EL, medically speaking?
Well, so one of the things that we did learn that we still don't fully understand but was something that they recognized with L-DOPA and the study of the patients before they were administered L-DOPA is that while you're in this frozen state, like I said earlier, somebody throws a ball at you or like you said, somebody sees an emergency, they can suddenly move like normal and then they go back to that frozen state afterward.
They found that it's not just, like, an emergency, like a ball coming at you or your friend laying on the floor because they fell down, but things like music, human touch, even, like, obnoxious sounds like a siren or something can basically prompt the person to start moving again and, like, come back out of that frozen catatonia or mutism.
And that was one of the things that they found people could do on L-DOPA too.
Like even with the extreme tremors or inability to control the movement of your mouth or eyes, those could be tamed by the same thing, by stimulating your brain in some other way.
And there was this story of a guy who was a cobbler by trade before he had gotten sick.
And after L-DOPA came along, he asked for like a cobbler's bench and the hospital staff got him one.
And when he was working at his cobbler's bench, he was able to like hold like nails in his teeth and like nail the heel of the shoe with these little tiny nails and just work and control the symptoms because there's something in the brain that was overriding the symptoms.
We have no idea why.
We just know that that was part of this whole thing.
There's some way that these problematic symptoms can be overridden by some other region of the brain taking importance or precedence over that, which is just bizarre.
Like from start to finish, this is one of the most bizarre diseases in history.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Did you also watch Tremors by accident?
No, that would have been very pleasant.
That's one of my favorite movies.
All of a sudden the sun's coming up and you still haven't seen Awakenings.
So getting back to the modern perspectives and what we think medically these days, in the last 75 years, like I said, it completely went away.
They kind of don't know.
In the last 75 years, there's only been about 80 case reports where it looks like it might be EL.
They call it like an EL-like presentation.
You know, the hypersomnolence, maybe ocular paralysis, maybe some of those neuropsychiatric symptoms.
But they're really not sure because, you know, the cases are pretty varied and the symptoms are pretty varied.
And, again, you know, all they have is sort of these case studies from before.
They never landed on anything.
So it's hard to tell if this is still going on at all or not.
There's no, like, effective treatment.
You know, they still use L-DOPA, I think, right?
Isn't that still on the scene?
So for the tremors and rigidity and stuff like that, sometimes ECT for if you have like pretty extreme psychiatric symptoms.
But for Von Economo's work, he got he never won, but he was nominated three times for a Nobel Prize.
Pretty good.
Yeah, for sure.
And remember, he also originally suspected that it was some sort of infection.
He thought Spanish flu wasn't Spanish flu.
But they do think that it's probable now that it is the result of an autoimmune disorder triggered by an infection.
So what that would amount to is that you are infected by maybe it is strep, maybe it is herpes, maybe it is influenza.
We don't know.
But something that resembles proteins found in different regions of your brain.
It trains your body to attack those proteins in your brain.
So it triggers an autoimmune disorder.
And those proteins are only found in specific regions of the brain that when you step back and look at what those regions do, they control the symptoms that you see in people with encephalitis lethargica.
I just sounded like Tim Curry in Rocky Horror Picture Show.
Get on the slab.
Oh, that was good.
I forgot how good your impression is of Dr. Frankenfurter.
Oh, well, you know, I met the man.
He held my cat.
Oh, that's right.
He said your cat was naughty, right?
I said he had dramatic ears.
But also naughty.
Get on the slab, Laurent.
I got nothing else.
I guess I got nothing else either.
We don't we don't know the answer to all of this.
And I don't know when we ever will.
But it's just it's so fascinating that you have to stop and remind yourself like this actually happened to people.
And then you realize how terrifying the whole thing really is.
Well, Chuck said, yeah, twice within seven seconds, which automatically means, oh, well, no, he derailed it.
You have to say, yeah, one more time, hurry.
Okay, now we're back on to listener mail.
This is, you're going to like this one, Josh, I think.
Hey, guys, this is about the 8-tracks.
I always learn something from you, sometimes unexpectedly, you guys.
In the 8-track short stuff, you talked about cart being short for cartridge and sparked a memory.
I'm from Buffalo, you see, and I used to listen to a radio announcer called Iron Mike Benson.
He famously had what he called, and Jamie says sorry to you specifically, Josh, about this.
Where Iron Mike Benson would say that he had the heinous anus fart cart.
And he would use it to play various fart sounds and strategically place them over the top of whatever songs happened to be getting played on the air at the moment.
I always imagined the word cart at the time was referring to like a basket on wheels that contained a bunch of separate tapes.
Of fart sounds.
Now it all makes sense.
It was a tape recording.
But because it was a looped tape with multiple tracks on it, he could cue whatever selection he wanted much quicker than you could with a linear cassette tape.
So it was the analog way to do that sort of thing before a digital soundboard was used and invented.
Thank you for all the useless interest grabbing information.
And useless is in quotes, by the way.
That is only useless until you can relate it to something else.
Podcasts have come and gone, but your show is the one I haven't gotten tired of.
And my sister Ashley agrees.
Keep it up, boys.
That is Jamie Lynn Baer.
Thank you, Jamie Lynn.
And thank you to your sister Ashley, who ostensibly listens as well.
And the whole Baer clan.
How about that?
The clan of the cave bear.
I thought that as well.
If you want to be like the clan of the cave bear and write in to let us know how much you like our show and or we triggered some memory in you that helped you put things together and or whatever else you want to say, we love that kind of thing.
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Hey, and welcome to The Short Stuff.
I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and there's Jerry, sitting in for Dave, and this is Stuff You Should Know.
Yes, and I'm psyched.
But I think that's where its origin was along the border of Texas and Mexico.
But I saw also it spread, Chuck, to places like Argentina and Cuba.
They have their own versions.
But Valachusa is a, I think somewhere around a seven foot owl with the face of a woman, 15 foot wingspan and a bad attitude.
That's so creepy.
Can you imagine a seven foot owl woman with a 15 foot wingspan mimicking a baby's cries?
I don't like that.
Also, some of the other stuff that said about her is that if you see her near your house, it means it's she she's portending that something bad is about to happen to somebody in your house, maybe a piece of furniture in your house.
I don't know.
She's also been accused of being an emissary of Satan himself.
That's right.
And one of the things you said is that she's often described as being vengeful because of something that happened in her past or to her kid.
Usually that's chalked up to either her child was killed for a crime they didn't commit.
And so now she's stealing other people's kids in return or that her child was killed by a drunk man.
And that's actually one group that she seems to target.
And modern tellings are drunk dudes stumbling out of bars and walking home alone at night.
And then 15 foot wingspan comes out of nowhere and the talons just sink into their head and carry them off by their scalp.
And if they're lucky, their scalp will rip off of their head and they'll fall to the ground and die on impact.
And if they're unlucky, they'll be carried by their scalp all the way back to La La Chuza's lair and bad things are going to happen to them there.
Yeah, I guess in the La La Chuza fact off, there's that whole idea that this is a woman, owl woman, who is actually some sort of spirit or familiar or something like that, means that there is an actual person involved in this elsewhere.
Often a member of the community secretly preying on the rest of the community as La La Chuza.
And that when La La Chuza is out doing her thing, that person is unconscious back home in some room until she comes back and re-inhabits their body.
So either they're possessed by her or they're using her or their special ability to enact vengeance and terrorize a community.
And there's actually supposedly, I looked all over for it, I couldn't find it, but there's supposedly some sort of incantation or prayer or something that a community can use to
that will reveal the person who is actually La La Chuza, and then ostensibly they get their scalp taken.
OK, Chuck, and we've been using the name La Lechuza without explaining to non-Spanish speakers that Lechuza is actually the word for owl.
Which makes a lot of sense.
And this was we said that this whole thing kind of came from the Texas-Mexico border.
That seems to be the origin of it.
And they think essentially that this is just like any other bit of folklore, that it was used to explain unbearable things like the disappearance of children or probably more likely it was used to keep kids on the straight and narrow like fairy tales were in Western Europe.
Same thing if you're out messing around and, you know, spray painting somebody's brick wall or something like that.
Lalocheese is going to come out of nowhere and snatch you up.
So you better be good kind of thing.
Yeah, I thought this was really interesting because a lot of the gods in Mesoamerican cultures were animal-human hybrids, right?
So an owl woman may have been some ancient or eldritch deity, right?
And was in no way, shape or form evil.
But the Spaniards came along as Christians and went to that Christian playbook and basically said, your gods are now Christianity's demons.
So stop worshiping them.
And that is a great explanation for where something like Lechuza came from.
Have you seen the movie based on La Llorona?
I don't think I saw that.
That was it was kind of scary.
That is the Latino urban legend.
And it was OK.
I take that back then because I don't want to ruin my streak.
Yeah, there's a song called El Parajo Gigante de Robe, which is by a group called Los Campeones de Raul Ruiz.
And the de Robe is actually talking about a specific town called Robstown, Texas, along the borders near Corpus Christi.
there was an outbreak of sightings of La La Chuza in 1975 and 76.
And it was a big deal.
This whole town was like, credible people are like, I saw La La Chuza with my own eyes.
And it turned out that there was a group of teens from town who had created a pretty convincing La La Chuza dummy, like a life-size one, and was just running it around town, scaring the bejesus out of people.
So that's where that inspired that song as far as I can tell.
Oh, Spirit Halloween.
Have you been to Home Depot lately, dude?
They've gone off the chain.
Oh, yeah.
They have like 10, 12 foot tall scary monsters now.
It's crazy, like their Halloween thing.
But it's the same issue that you don't want, which is somebody two doors down is going to have the same thing.
Good plan.
There was one other thing, too, and I kind of touched on it, that La La Chuza has survived into modern day and that the most modern interpretations tend to kind of drill into the kind of gender norm or flip-flop gender norms that the fable or the urban legend actually kind of gets into, which is there's a vengeful woman who is big enough and powerful enough and angry enough to punish bad men.
And that not just men who stumble home drunk from the bar are targeted, but men who are known to, like, abuse their wives or children are her favorite, like, prey now.
So it's interesting how she kind of evolved into a bit of, like, an avenger for women and children.
Yeah, hats off, Layla Chusa.
That is true, Chuck.
That is true.
Anything else?
I got nothing else.
Well, then, short stuff is out.
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Hey, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and we're just goose-stepping to Jerry's orders like usual here on Stuff You Should Know.
No, no, no.
Thank you.
I'm glad you cleared that up for the new listeners who are like, oh, these guys are Nazis?
I hadn't realized.
No, I really enjoyed studying this one because I, as you know, am not the biggest student of war.
So I never sat around and watched the History Channel, and this one is very much a History Channel type of episode.
So I feel like I have a much better understanding of the lead up to World War II.
And also, it's amazing how much this reflects modern times and what's going on with Russia and Ukraine.
For real.
For real.
I kept going like, oh, oh, oh.
I mean, there's a very clear line you can draw between what the...
allies did to appease hitler and what a lot of people are concerned that the west is doing to appease putin right now and yeah you can also see though i think there's another lesson to be learned too where um once you kind of understand what the allies did pre-world war ii and why they were trying to appease hitler which in retrospect from our position here in history seems like the dumbest most cowardly thing you could have done yeah
If you understand what their actual reasoning was for that and also that they didn't have the benefit of hindsight, then you can kind of understand a little more like what a weird position we're in right now, you know, or why people would even consider doing that to Putin now.
Yeah, for sure.
So I guess broadly, we should just say that appeasement was an official policy leading up to World War, or, you know, they didn't know there was going to be a World War II.
But looking back, once again, leading up to World War II, that the Western allies took were...
In a nutshell, they were basically like, you know what, let's sort of let Germany, and we need to point out, we're going to over and over, that they did not know Hitler was the madman we know him now.
No, they mistook him terribly.
Yeah, they were like, let's let Germany, I think Hitler just wants to kind of get Germany back on footing after World War I and after the Treaty of Versailles kind of wrecked Germany.
And we need a strong Germany in Europe and like, let's give him what he wants.
And he says he'll stop there.
And we believe him.
And like you said, they took Hitler to be just like any other statesman leading a European power, which was that he was a patrician colonizer who at the end of the day answered to the aristocracy of his country.
And that really he was more a threat to Europe.
Other people, lesser people throughout the world whose lands he wanted to turn into colonies.
And we just needed to bring him into the normal European way of doing things and Germany will be back on its feet again.
That was the kind of the darker explanation of appeasement.
Another explanation was they had just been through World War I a dozen years before when all this really kind of started.
And no one was in the mood for a second world war.
So appeasement was the official policy by the UK and France and then some of their supporters over time that said, if we give you the stuff you're asking for now, we're hoping that eventually you're going to reach your limit.
You're going to get what you wanted and you're just going to be
And everything's going to be cool from that point on.
We won't have to get in your way militarily.
Thus, we'll avoid a war.
So let's try this instead.
So ultimately, it was a way to prevent World War II.
That was the entire point of appeasement, really, from the outset.
Well, yeah, because I mean, at the time, like you said, after World War I, none of these countries, what would end up being the Western allies, were in a great position.
They were still trying to build up armaments, some slower than others.
Germany wasn't in a great position.
So it's kind of interesting at the end, we're going to go over a couple of like alternate histories of different texts that could have played out or different plans that they could have taken.
And who knows how it would have worked out.
But I guess we should start with the Treaty of Versailles, right?
Yeah, for sure.
So this is after World War One and the Treaty of Versailles came along and was signed and it really it really pounded Germany.
And some historians even say like it went too far as far as being punitive.
Germany had to reduce their army from 1.9 million troops to 100,000.
They had to get rid of most of their navy, and they had to hand back territories that it had taken over the last hundred years and then pay hundreds of billion dollars in reparations.
So not only was it like financially strapping them.
Remember, this is the time when German hyper-reinflation happened during the Weimar Republic, which is between World War I and II.
This is why.
And then also it was like demoralizing.
It was meant to basically smack Germany down and be like, you're lesser now.
We're punishing you.
And so I saw a quote, I forgot to send it to you.
I don't remember who said it, but essentially they said, this is not a treaty.
This is an armistice for 20 years.
And it was somebody who looked at this in 1919 and 20 years later, World War II broke out because it was so punitive.
There was no way that the German people were not going to eventually rise up in retaliation for this.
And we were going to have a second world war.
So a lot of people point to that treaty as being the thing that
Didn't necessarily directly lead to World War II, but it laid all the groundwork to create a populace that was in a vengeful mood that would be willing to support somebody like with such nationalistic fervor as Hitler.
And that's what Hitler was cooking up from the beginning.
He was basically like, hey, we we want to get Germany back together.
We need to get all of our rightful lands basically where any Germanic peoples are and where anybody is speaking German.
And also, as we'll see, help out any German minorities to our east, you know, which is Russia and the Soviet Union at the time, because they're going to come into play.
And he whipped up this nationalistic fervor that everyone in Germany got behind.
And that's, you know, what eventually would, of course, lead to World War II.
But I guess we should take it sort of chronologically because there were a series of appeasements starting in 1935, kind of one after the other until finally, you know, they could take no more.
And just bear this in mind while you're hearing all of these high points of how we moved toward World War II thanks to Germany.
Hitler followed this awareness or this belief by the UK and France that what Germany really wanted to do was climb back out from under the Treaty of Versailles and just get back to where they were before.
So Hitler followed that to a T. All of his demands, all of the aggressions that he made were based on the Treaty of Versailles.
And yet in retrospect, now we realize now these were, he was always going to try to go way further than that.
He was just playing upon the suppositions of the allies at the time.
Oh, God.
I mean, after studying all this stuff, he played them for such suckers.
He did.
And what makes it a little worse, though, too, is he wrote all this stuff out in 1925.
In Mein Kampf, it's all laid out.
That push to the east you're talking about where he wants to make more room for German nationals that are outside of Germany, the Lebensraum, which basically says we're going to Russia eventually.
Like they knew this for 10 years before he really became a huge problem and everybody just ignored it.
Oh, yeah.
He's like, I wrote a book about it.
And I guess you guys don't read German because I basically said what I was going to do.
All right.
So 1935 was the first sort of wave of appeasement.
And this was the Anglo-German Naval Agreement, basically where Britain said,
you know what, we know that you're breaking the Treaty of Versailles because we know you're building up your navy, even though you were supposed to scuttle your navy, and go ahead and build a new fleet.
A lot of people saw that as just sort of an initial surrender to what Hitler wanted, but
Britain knew that they were cheating already.
They had MI6 on the ground, specifically an agent named Carl Kruger in their U-boat design office, which was, you know, a secret program at the time.
And they thought, hey, maybe we can get them to...
build fewer U-boats by endorsing them building these really big, expensive battleships that cost a lot of money and a lot of raw materials.
And it'll kind of kill their U-boat program.
It didn't exactly work.
They were supposed to build 72 submarines and ended up building 54.
But I don't know if they were like, you know, hooray about that.
So, yeah, that in and of itself is a problem.
Like this grand policy of like making them spend resources, it really didn't lead to that big of a reduction.
But geopolitically speaking, it basically said the UK was endorsing now Germany breaking the Treaty of Versailles by agreeing with them that Germany could build its navy back up.
There was also another thing that had nothing to do with Germany, but really played into this later on.
France was led by a couple of different appeasement, pro appeasement prime ministers or premiers during this time, and they were good friends with Italy.
And Italy invaded Ethiopia, as you'll remember from our Haile Selassie episode in 1935.
And France said, you know what?
Go with it, Italy.
We don't care about that.
Just promise us that if things go down, if the S hits the fan or Le S hits le fan, you will be on our side against Germany.
And Italy said, yes, definitely.
You got it 100%.
And then they just went and ravaged Ethiopia.
Yeah, and we all know how that turned out in the end.
Exactly.
So in 1936, those first two were 35.
In 1936, Germans west, the Rhineland, they wanted to re-militarize that area.
That, again, went against the Treaty of Versailles because that was supposed to be a buffer zone, the western part of Germany.
And there was a chance here to forcefully respond here because they had Czechoslovakia and Romania saying, like, hey, you know,
We got your back if you want to do anything, but France and Britain basically did nothing.
Again, France just kind of said, nah, we're kind of busy with our own stuff as we'll see, right?
And a lot of people also who were heading the politics in Western Europe at the time were like, yeah, good on them.
Germany, they got that taken away from them in the Treaty of Versailles.
Let them have it back.
That's Germany, you know?
There was also the Anschluss, which was a different category after the remilitarization of the Rhineland because this was where they annexed Austria.
Austria was a sovereign nation.
It was not a part of Germany before World War I.
As far as I know, please, God, don't let me be wrong about that one.
And Germany just said, Austria, you're now part of Germany.
You guys are Germanic by heritage.
So you're just part of Germany now.
And the world just turned their heads and said, yeah, I guess that's fine, too.
You know, Germany's doing its Germanic thing.
And, you know, we're going to talk a little bit about public opinion here and there.
But at the time, this was March 1938.
And this was Neville Chamberlain as PM in Britain.
And the Brits didn't want to get involved.
There was about 25 percent in a survey were in favor of, you know, a determined policy.
So, you know, I guess it's not aggression, but determined.
Yeah, most people were in favor of continuing to just kind of go along with Germany, re-stabilizing or regaining what it had before the Treaty of Versailles.
Because again, this is what people are thinking.
But if you'll notice, we've started to pick up speed a little bit here, like bigger things are starting to happen.
That was March of 1938 when they took over Austria.
And then in September...
And Hitler had been basically making speeches where he was saying, hey, there's this part, he called it the rump of Czechoslovakia, that butts up against Germany.
That's really actually Germany.
It's called the Sudetenland.
And it's just basically this mountain range.
Czechoslovakia doesn't care about it, but we care about it because we're reuniting Germany again.
So we want that.
And we're going to go take it whether you want us to or not.
And Neville Chamberlain and P.M.
Edouard de Dallier...
all ran to Munich to meet with Hitler on his own ground and said, here, what do you want?
Well, let's make a deal.
And Hitler said, well, I've told you what I want.
I want this northwestern part of Czechoslovakia.
We call it the Sudetenland.
And they said, all right, you can have that, but you got to promise, like, you know, put your hand on this Bible, raise your right hand.
Mm-hmm.
And you've got to promise you're not going to do anything else in Czechoslovakia.
That's it.
It stops there.
And this is where things are really, I feel like, echoing what's going on in Ukraine.
Like, hey, Putin, you know, eventually you're going to get this stuff that you've conquered, but you're going to stop there, right?
And that's what happened back then.
The Czechs were an ally to France and Britain at the time.
They were not even invited to the summit, again, echoing things that we see going on today.
And at the time, there were even some German generals that thought like early on in September of 38, when this happened, they were like, hey, listen, if the Allies get behind Czechoslovakia here, we could be in trouble.
So there was some kind of bluff calling happening, basically.
But Britain kind of said, no, let's let them do this.
And they steered France to do the same and pressure Czechoslovakia to submit.
And that's what happened.
Yeah, and Czechoslovakia is like, fine, they can have the Sudetenland.
We weren't even invited, but we'll go along with it because our ally, France, is telling us to.
Keep in mind, an ally is not just like, we're friends with you, we think you're pretty cool.
An ally means like you usually have some sort of documents or treaties saying like if somebody...
tries to take part of your country, we're going to come back you up militarily.
And when the chips came down, France said no because Great Britain was steering them.
And one other point about all this that's kind of hidden in there, Great Britain was in a position to steer France because you could make an argument that it was still the world's superpower.
The empire was on the wane, but...
But still by the 30s, 25% of the global population and 20% of the Earth's landmass were under British control.
So Britain was in a global position to basically set the stage of how to deal with Germany.
And the UK decided appeasement was the way to go.
So everybody else kind of followed along.
All right.
So that's September of 38.
They give them that, you know, they say you can have this portion of Czechoslovakia as long as you promise not to go in.
Seven months later, in March of 1939, he went into the rest of Czechoslovakia, just like he wrote in his book, basically.
So, you know, Hitler reneged on that promise, of course, to leave Czechoslovakia, the rest of it alone.
And that was like the real decisive moment, because I think I feel like that's when Hitler was probably like, man, these guys are cowards.
And they're letting me do whatever I want.
And very quickly thereafter, that was March of 39.
September of 39 is when he invaded Poland.
And then it was on.
And even before he invaded Poland, once he reneged on the Czechoslovakian deal, the Munich Agreement.
He showed the world, like, I'll tell you whatever you want to hear.
I'm not going to back it up.
So he immediately destroyed the policy of appeasement.
Like appeasement policy had about as much traction as like yesterday's non-winning lotto ticket that you'd find in the gutter covered in gum and maybe a little bit of blood from somewhere.
Like that was appeasement after the invasion of Czechoslovakia.
I got there eventually.
But, you know, Poland was invaded and that's really what kicked off like the beginnings of World War II.
Hitler tried to provoke war with Poland by saying, hey, I want Danzig, not the band,
No, but still.
The city of Danzig and Prussian territory that was granted to you in 1919 after World War I that we feel like is ours.
And Britain and France, you know, they made guarantees to Poland at the time.
But in August, it was pretty shocking at the time.
The Nazis and the Soviets signed a pact to partition Poland out and basically said, you come in from the east, we'll come in from the west, and Poland is ours.
And two days later, Britain and France declared war on Germany.
And I think that is a great place to stop.
Boy, what a robust setup.
We'll be right back.
Here we go.
Hey, I'm Cal Penn, and on my new podcast, Here We Go Again, we'll take today's trends and headlines and ask, why does history keep repeating itself?
You may know me as the second hottest actor from the Harold and Kumar movies, but I'm also an author, a White House staffer, and, as of like 15 seconds ago, a podcast host.
Along the way, I've made some friends who are experts in science, politics, and pop culture.
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So, Chuck, where we left off, Hitler had just invaded Poland and the U.K.
and France declared war on Germany.
That's right.
It took a lot.
What that showed everybody was that appeasement was dead.
The whole policy had just shifted now to either containment or out and out war now that they had declared war.
But this was like there was a lot of reasons for appeasement to have been tried.
We talked about some of them.
But a big one was the UK was really holding on to that world's greatest superpower status as hard as they could.
And another world war put that in like real jeopardy and put him in a precarious position.
Yeah, I mean, they were, you know, everybody was trying to rearm themselves, like I said earlier, since World War I, some a little quicker than others.
I think the United States, as we'll learn, wasn't making the greatest rearmament effort because Congress was kind of chilling the purse strings back when they could do stuff like that.
But the...
The writing was on the wall for the U.K.
They were like, we're not in any position, even though we're supposedly the world's greatest superpower, to fight Germany, Japan and Italy all at the same time to prevent them from expanding their territories.
Like, that's just not a possibility.
And we might have to enter an alliance with the U.S.
If worse comes to worse, we might have to enter into an alliance with the USSR and
That's going to lessen their stance and their power worldwide if they have to do stuff like that.
With their prestige or power lessened on the world stage, that's the kind of thing that can spark decolonization movements.
So they were worried about Jamaica.
They were worried about India.
They were worried about Nigeria, all of a sudden being like, the UK has overextended itself.
Now's the time to declare independence from the UK.
And not just the prestige that was lost, but more to the point, the resources, the raw materials, all the stuff that Great Britain extracted from these colonies, that would be lost as well.
So what Great Britain wanted was no war, please, at least in part to preserve its empire.
But other people who were in the British parliament and government basically said, we're going to have to go to war.
It's inevitable.
But we're supporting appeasement right now because we need to stall for time to rearm ourselves, like you were saying.
Right.
Which, as we'll see, also allowed Germany to do the same.
Either through rearmament by building things or by storming Czechoslovakia.
And all of a sudden they had all their stuff.
But appeasement was popular for a long time.
Throughout most of the 1930s, the public didn't want to go to war.
Again, they were shaking off a World War I hangover still.
No one wanted to go to a war that was more technologically advanced, like pretty rapidly since the end of World War I. For a second World War, I think in 1937, 62% of British men
said they wouldn't volunteer, and 78% of women said they would not urge their husbands to go fight.
And even after the Munich Agreement, when Czechoslovakia was left hanging out to dry, 75% still approved of appeasement in Great Britain.
And so there was like a lot of anti-war anxiety.
Apparently people had died by suicide.
There were mental health problems.
All of the appeasement, pro-appeasement sentiment was also bolstered by The Times.
And I believe the BBC, too, which portrayed Hitler as a moderate, basically saying like it could get way worse than this guy.
Let's just deal with this guy.
Right.
And then the reason why this matters is because at the time, Britain had recently enfranchised its women, like more and more people were voting.
So the public opinion about stuff mattered more and more to the people calling the shots politically.
And we'll also see that also turned the politicians' views against appeasement as public opinion changed on appeasement, too.
Yeah, for sure.
And, you know, there was a string of PMs that were all for it.
Neville Chamberlain was the third British PM.
He was in there from 37 to 40 during this time of appeasement.
So it wasn't just Chamberlain.
I think he's kind of there's two things I feel like from Great Britain that are remembered is and, you know, it depends on how you want to look at it.
But I think a lot of people eventually frame Neville Chamberlain as a coward because
and Winston Churchill as a hero because he was one of the only ones that was like, this guy Hitler, like, I don't think you guys see the writing on the wall here.
He's not gonna stop and this appeasement thing is no good.
Yeah, and he also, I mean, he stood alone basically in his party.
The conservatives were like, yeah, we're all pro-appeasement, at least at the time.
So he definitely stood on his own.
In France, France also had lost a lot of people and a lot of money in World War I and was not very eager to do a redo of it.
But they were still anti-Germany, like France was not a friend of Germany.
They did not want to be friends with Germany.
Their alliances were against Germany.
But ultimately, and this is what's crazy to me, it was wracked by far right and far left internal political conflict at the time.
Yeah, yeah.
They were kind of inter-stalemate almost.
Right.
And so they were, whether they wanted to be or not, they were fairly drawn into domestic affairs rather than foreign affairs.
And it wasn't until Edouard Deladier...
who became prime minister, that they really started to branch back out into foreign affairs.
But even then, they were pretty pro-appeasement.
So they didn't really have much of a stomach for going into a Second World War, understandably, but they didn't feel like they were in a place to do anything.
So essentially, they just went on the defense.
They weren't going to go into a policy of containment or anything like that.
As far as the U.S.
goes at the time, we had FDR in there.
Roosevelt was in there and he endorsed appeasement like officially he endorsed the Munich agreement.
They were into isolationism at the time and trying to stay neutral.
And we were also in no position militarily because, like I mentioned, we were kind of, you know, we were also depleted by World War One and moving along a little slower than even other eventual allied countries because Congress was kind of pulling those purse strings a little tight as far as building the military back up.
Yeah, and I think that you can make a case that any country that was involved in World War I really lost its appetite for war after that.
To an amazing degree.
Understandably.
For sure.
And then there was another group of pro-appeasers who was Britain's aristocracy.
And the reason why is because they wanted things to just basically, let's just go back to where we colonize other places and really it's the aristocracy running things and we're all related and I'm your cousin and you're my cousin and we're all three somehow married, but we all run everything, we're all just crazy rich.
Let's keep doing that.
And they saw Hitler as somebody who could help keep that kind of status quo or get back to that kind of status quo
The group that was opposed to Hitler, though, they were the Soviets and they were communists.
And the aristocrats who enjoy wealth inequality do not typically like communism or communists.
So they wanted to steer Britain away from any kind of alliances with the USSR that could support communists or socialists in Britain and their causes and more toward Hitler because Hitler's policies kind of jobbed with the aristocracy's views a little more.
And I mean, they were sort of actively courting one another because they saw Hitler as somebody who could, you know, like you were saying, kind of let them keep their their lifestyle in check.
Right.
And Hitler in Germany did nothing to make them think otherwise.
You know, they were playing on the spears of communism for sure.
Like, you know, you got a lot of dough.
You know what happens when communism happens and that, you know, send a chill through the British aristocratic scene.
Yeah, they were known to say Crikey.
Break time?
Or shall we go on with Churchill?
Give me a break, Chuck.
Break me off a piece of that ad break bar.
Oh, boy.
We'll be right back.
Chicago, a white woman's murder, a black man behind bars for a crime he didn't commit.
Here we go.
Hey, I'm Cal Penn, and on my new podcast, Here We Go Again, we'll take today's trends and headlines and ask, why does history keep repeating itself?
You may know me as the second hottest actor from the Harold and Kumar movies, but I'm also an author, a White House staffer, and as of like 15 seconds ago, a podcast host.
Along the way, I've made some friends who are experts in science, politics and pop culture.
And each week, one of them will be joining me to answer my burning questions.
Like, are we heading towards another financial crash like in 08?
Is non-monogamy back in style?
And how come there's never a gate ready for your flight when it lands like two minutes early?
We've got guests like Pete Buttigieg, Stacey Abrams, Lilly Singh and Bill Nye.
When you start weaponizing outer space, things can potentially go really wrong.
Look, the world can seem pretty scary right now because it is.
But my goal here is for you to listen and feel a little better about the future.
Listen and subscribe to Here We Go Again with Cal Penn on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hey there, I'm Kyle MacLachlan.
I have a new podcast called What Are We Even Doing?
where I embark on a noble quest to understand the brilliant chaos of youth culture.
Daddy's looking good!
Each week I invite someone fascinating to join me.
Actors, musicians, creatives, highly evolved digital life forms.
And we talk about what they love.
Sometimes I'll drizzle a little honey in there too if I'm feeling sexy in the morning.
What keeps them going.
Join me and my delightful guests every Thursday, and let's get weird together in a good way.
Listen to What Are We Even Doing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
All right, so that might have been the best ad segue ever.
With the all right soap?
I didn't see an allusion to Kit Kat happening in this episode.
Thanks.
All right, so we mentioned Churchill sort of briefly before.
Churchill was, like we said, one of the sort of few outspoken dudes that was like, no, we can't do this.
He visited Germany in 1932, and he was like, these Nazis mean business.
I don't think you guys understand what's happening here.
And he said, if we concede to Hitler –
Things are going to get much worse.
We have to rearm ourselves, you know, quicker and get those factories to work.
But, you know, that's the kind of thing that can wreck an economy.
So that's if people are wondering, like, well, why didn't they all just rearm as fast as they could?
It's because it costs a ton of money and people.
So it's not great for the economy to have to build that war machine back up.
So but he was pounding the drum to do so.
Yeah, and his whole take on Hitler, including the Munich Agreement, which he called a total and unmitigated defeat.
This is where the Allies went to Hitler and said, we'll let you have part of Czechoslovakia, just don't invade the rest of Czechoslovakia.
When Neville Chamberlain came back to the UK, he was basically waiving the agreement and saying he had negotiated a peace for our time.
that essentially like aggression from Germany was done.
We were all going to live in peace again.
And it lasted a year before we were at war with Germany.
So it made Chamberlain look pretty bad.
It made Churchill look like very foresightful and exactly the kind of guy that you would want to fight Hitler.
So essentially after they got rid of Chamberlain, the UK went to Churchill and said, you don't like Hitler.
We understand that.
We don't like Hitler anymore now.
And so you're up.
And, you know, a lot of people said that was his aim was to increase his political profile.
And, you know, who knows if that was his aim, but it worked.
He took over as PM in 1940 after Chamberlain, like you said, and he wanted he basically later on was like, hey, if we would have had a policy of deterrence instead of appeasement, we might have prevented this war to begin with.
You know, Britain and France should have strengthened our relationship.
And that was our best hope was maybe to form what he called the Grand Alliance with the Soviet Union even and Eastern European countries.
But the Soviet, you know, there was a lot of distrust of the Soviet Union, especially, you know, like we mentioned, the aristocracy who wanted to hang on to their pounds.
And, of course, what Stalin was doing, you know, they didn't trust that either.
he was not going to get support from the British or the French to sort of be tougher.
No, but as we'll see later, it was not a bad plan.
Could have changed things dramatically.
One of the other things that made Churchill such a strident voice about opposing Germany is that he had intelligence.
I guess as a minister of parliament, he had men on the inside.
And he had an intelligence report from somebody in Germany saying that Germany had a mean spirit of revenge, brutality amounting in many cases to bestiality and complete ruthlessness.
No way.
And this is at a time when Chamberlain and Deladier are basically saying, like, Hitler's our friend.
We just need to keep negotiating with him.
He's getting reports about how they're just brutal and ruthless.
And those panned out to be true.
We mentioned FDR in the U.S.
earlier that officially they supported appeasement because they would not, you know, sign any kind of formal agreement with the U.K.
or France.
But on the inside, the administration was definitely trying to kind of say, hey, U.K., you got to you got to change your stance here.
You got to like Hitler means business and only your military can support.
can deter this guy at this point.
But on the outside, they were, you know, officially like, hey, we're not involved.
This appeasement sounds pretty good to us.
And like we said, you know, the people of Britain were largely for it.
And most of the people were...
Didn't want to go back to war until the Kristallnacht on November 1938.
That's when Germany, you know, for the first time attacked its own citizens and destroyed Jewish businesses and synagogues, killed about 100 Jews and arrested about 100,000.
And that's when the public at large kind of all around the world was like, oh, OK, that's what this guy's about.
This cannot stand.
Right.
And remember now with the UK having all of these new voters, their opinion mattered.
So that helped change things too.
I wish I knew how to say too late in German.
You don't?
You didn't learn that in high school?
I was trying to think if I could think of that.
Can you sound it out letter by letter?
Oh, wait, you'd have to know the word to do that.
No, I remember what Knutson the mouse did at Hans Peter's house because I remember reading that chapter over and over and over.
What did he do?
I really don't remember.
But my friend Rad, the cartographer in Montana, he'll be the only person in the world that gets that joke.
Because it was just a lot of stuff about Knutson the mouse and his owner, Hans Pater.
It was, you know, that German textbook stuff.
Was that like the German high school class's equivalent of the little prince in the French class?
Gotcha.
I understand exactly what you mean.
Yeah, it's fun on a big show like this to make a joke for one human.
So I hope Brad listens.
No, why not?
So there's one other group, Chuck, that we didn't talk about what they thought of appeasement, and that was the Nazis themselves and Hitler.
They loved it.
Yeah, probably not a big surprise.
They saw it as a clear sign of weakness by the world's leading powers that Hitler and Germany could do whatever it wanted, and France and the U.K.
were just going to bow their knees and their heads in front of
Hitler and the people of the of Germany itself also picked up on this, too.
Like Hitler had remember he'd taken power.
It wasn't like, you know, he wasn't fully supported yet.
There was like a courtship period that was still things were up in the air.
But when he came back and said, I got back the Rhineland, I got back Sudetenland, I got his Austria back.
what's next, you know?
And I did it all without a single shot fired.
Like these guys just gave it back to us because that's what they think of Germany with me leading it.
The German people just went nuts.
And Hitler was, was the guy.
He was Der Fuhrer.
That was the day Hitler became Der Fuhrer.
That's it, man.
You just walked off of a history channel show.
You dropped, you dropped the mic in the sound studio and left.
One thing we can say is that appeasement did achieve the aim of rearmament.
That was kind of one of the goals, like we said a few times, is that, you know, everyone was trying to put this off so they could build back up their war stock or whatever.
And that happened.
Britain spent less on arms than Germany did from 1935 to 1939, but...
They had the highest proportion of their GDP devoted to building up their armaments in 1940.
And in 1930s, they rebuilt the Navy to the, you know, once again, the world's strongest Navy.
Shout out to British Sea Power, one of my favorite bands.
And early on, you know, they had outpaced Germany.
And, you know, we're going to talk about the alternate histories here shortly, like what if they had done something.
They're in a pretty good position.
They between Britain and France, their coalition had a five to one argument.
armament superiority over germany early on and france uh the fall of france in 1940 apparently and i don't know enough about this stuff but from what i've read it wasn't because they were unprepared and didn't have enough bombs and things apparently it was about poor leadership at that point yeah i i couldn't find enough by that myself to speak confidently on it all i know is that france did not put up much of a fight from what i remember from the history books
But let's talk about that, Chuck.
Let's talk about those alternate histories, especially with the view of armament.
Because Neville Chamberlain, he basically couldn't get a coalition government together anymore after Hitler reneged on the Munich Agreement.
And he was replaced, like we saw, by Winston Churchill in 1940.
That same year, he died of cancer after Chamberlain was removed.
But he spent that time basically saying, like,
I bought us time.
Appeasement bought us time to rearm.
And he's right.
Like you showed, like Britain did have a chance to rearm.
But there is a really critical window that we know about now where that policy of appeasing in order to rearm didn't make sense.
And that was about 1938 to 1939.
And the reason was, is because France and the UK were rearming at a rate close to Germany and were actually even overtaking it a little bit.
And they could have put up a fight against Germany and probably won, especially together, combining their stuff.
In 1938.
By 1939, things had changed.
Germany had gone even further overdrive into war production.
But more to the point, they had taken over Czechoslovakia.
Czechoslovakia had all sorts of munitions factories.
Czechoslovakia had all sorts of people you could conscript into free labor, a.k.a.
slave labor.
There's all sorts of stuff that happened when they took over Czechoslovakia.
And it tipped the balance.
Whoop.
way up in favor of Germany's military after that.
So that period, 1938 to 1939, appeasement did the exact opposite.
And it made the war way worse than it would have been had the UK and France said, this is as good as it's going to get.
We got to go now.
Well, yeah, and, you know, it also possibly made the war worse, and a lot of people say it definitely made the war worse than it would have been, because in 1940, Britain's holding out against Germany, and they're both seeking resources all around the world that you needed to get to win a world war.
And that just expanded the war, basically.
It made it into a global thing, a much larger thing than it might have been otherwise.
Right.
So deterrence might have avoided all of that.
If they would have formed a grand alliance and bonded their powers early on, you know, because I mentioned earlier, there were even generals within Germany.
It's kind of a bluffing game, like, hey, if these guys get together, like, we're not in the best position right now.
And so while they were buying time, it helped Germany increase their war chest.
And, yeah, the rest is history.
Right.
But speaking of alternate histories, there were other options that the UK had on the table.
And now speaking about them, like in retrospect, it's mind boggling to even think.
But the first one's a little more understandable or palatable.
Had the UK simply just not declared war after Germany invaded Poland, that was an option to them on the table.
They didn't have to do it.
France had already set the precedent of not backing up Czechoslovakia when it was taken over by Germany.
the UK could have just not done that too.
And one thing that could have backed this up, that could have supported actually that position in the UK, just sit back and let it play out on its own, is that it was inevitable essentially for the USSR and Germany to clash because of that Lebensraum policy, that policy of the East actually belongs to Germany and we're going to go take it, right?
And, you know, that played out by eventually with Operation Barbarossa, the invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941.
Some people say like, and, you know, of course, this sounds completely ridiculous to think of now with hindsight.
But some people are like, you know, the UK could have allied with Germany early on.
I mean, I think one of the reasons they didn't, it's not because they knew this Hitler guy was a madman.
Again, that came later.
It was because of the colonies that you were talking about that they had all over the world.
Germany also had colonies all over the world and they had a conflict.
I think Britain wasn't going to say here, why don't you why don't you take our African colonies?
And Germany definitely didn't like the way Britain looked at at race.
Right.
They had a pretty different idea on that.
And so if they had any kind of alliance, they would have had surrendered their their liberal imperialism and they really weakened their status as an international superpower.
Yeah, they would have had to fall in line with basically the way Germany viewed the world.
Yeah, just wrapping your mind around that is not easy to do, like the UK doing that.
And Kyle, who's our man on the inside in the UK.
Yeah, he's our MI6 agent.
Exactly.
He pointed something out that I thought was pretty interesting, too.
He basically said the fact that Kristallnacht is...
And the news of what Germany had done to its own Jewish citizens, how that turned British public opinion, just basically showed, like, even if Britain did try to ally with Germany, it was never going to work out.
That's probably the least likely of all of it.
And then also, Chuck, you can't help us being Americans to wonder, could America have sat out World War II?
You know, we declared war after Pearl Harbor on Imperial Japan that followed or following that Germany declared war on us in December 1941.
And, you know, maybe we could have evaded getting involved in the European theater.
Uh, we definitely got mired in the Pacific theater with Japan.
Um, we weren't really, it's not like the U S wasn't on the Nazis radar, but we weren't really a big part of their foreign policy in the 1930s yet.
Um, cause again, isolationism was kind of our bag at the time.
Our army wasn't very big.
We had in 1940, we had five divisions compared to Germany's 141.
And, uh, Congress definitely was not going to like get behind Roosevelt, uh,
entering the European theater at the time.
So there were a lot of reasons why it looked like the U.S.
maybe could have avoided that mess.
Yeah, but historians say probably we were going to get drawn in one way or another because, like you said, Germany did declare war on the U.S.
essentially to show Japan, like, hey, we're in this together.
You guys just handle the U.S.
So that was going to happen whether we tried to stay out of it or not.
And then he also knew that we were a threat and that we would eventually be online armament-wise to really make a significant contribution.
He predicted by 1942.
I think we started before then.
And then even more than that, Roosevelt was already giving permission for U.S.
battleships to shoot U.S.
and destroy U-boats that were operating in the Atlantic because they had started targeting American shipping.
And Hitler was not very happy about that.
So the U.S.
is probably not going to be able to stay out of World War II.
Yeah, for sure.
The alternate history, I guess, that gets me, Chuck, was the earliest when Germany re-militarized the Rhineland.
In flagrant violation of the Treaty of Versailles, had the UK and France intervened, this is 1936.
I mean, imagine if they had just done something then and contained Hitler then.
And remember, there was this courtship period or whatever where, you know, Germany hadn't really...
wasn't really sure about Hitler at the time.
Had he been undermined that thoroughly on the international stage, who knows what would have happened to him as the leader of Germany, right?
And they could have done something because at the time, France had 100,000 troops near the border with Rhineland.
Germany only moved 35,000 troops into the area.
France could have easily repelled that and been like, it's your move, Germany.
What are you going to do?
And Germany might not have done anything.
And even if Hitler had done something, it probably would have been against the advice of his military advisors.
So now he would have personally been taking Germany to war.
That's a lot to stake your reputation on.
And that one thing in 1936 could have completely avoided the death of tens of millions of people
They didn't do it because of internal left-right politics.
Oh, man.
That was good stuff.
Like, this is my favorite kind of stuff you should know when 45 minutes later, like, I know probably 100% more than I knew before about World War II.
Very nice, Chuck.
Yeah, I didn't know almost any of this either.
I love that stuff, too.
And I know we just talked about the U.S.
and the U.K.
and France's alternate history.
But if you want to come up with an alternate history for World War II in your country, let us know.
Hit the history textbooks and come back with what you got.
And we'd love to get that kind of thing.
In the meantime, while we're waiting for your listener mail, we'll listen to Chuck with a new listener mail.
Yeah, somebody just sends this man in the high castle.
No plagiarism, please.
Which I never saw or read.
I didn't either, but it's supposed to be pretty good.
Maybe I'll check that out at some point.
It sounds like it'd be right up my alley.
It's just too depressing for me, that kind of stuff.
That and things that normalize billionaires can't take it anymore.
Like Dee Snider.
All right, what is this?
This is from Chris.
Oh, yeah, this is just a nice thing.
Hey, guys, wanted to write in for a while now.
First of all, I always appreciate the wide variety of topics you cover, especially the ones born of your own natural curiosities.
As a former middle school science teacher, I saw my primary role as instilling curiosity in my students and modeling for them how to chase those curiosities, and your approach really resonates with me.
But the one thing I didn't pay enough attention to back when I was in the classroom was the art of communication that you guys display in every episode.
If I still had a classroom full of students, I would use your show not only for the content, but also for lessons in respectful communication.
So much discourse we hear today is loud and angry and doesn't give people space to express themselves without being interrupted, mocked, or refuted.
Somehow you guys seamlessly pass the baton of communication to one another without speaking over one another, contradicting each other's incomplete thoughts.
or negotiating the communication flow through general awkwardness.
Even when one of you have a follow-up comment that may provide a differing or correcting perspective, you always give space for the other to finish their thought before weighing in, and the follow-up comments are thoughtfully delivered and received.
Thanks so much for all you do.
I appreciate your authentic, respectful delivery of interesting content.
You guys keep my brain awake and smiling.
And that is from Chris, Christine Sewell in Bloomington, Illinois.
And Chris, one of the reasons is because we almost always agree with each other on this stuff.
I disagree.
So it makes it kind of easy.
Yeah, no, for sure.
And that's something that still kind of surprises me to this day where, like, just our common view is so in step with one another.
Where, I mean, like, there's just so many things that are different about us.
Like our personalities are pretty different.
Wildly different.
Yeah, I would say wildly sure.
I'll go with that.
But when you come down to like, what do you think about this?
What do you think about this?
What do you think about that?
It's generally in the same, not even ballpark, in the same hot dog stand of the same ballpark.
Yeah, I don't think the show would have worked for so long if you and I just were sort of at odds over every little thing.
And I think that stuff that Christine is talking about, too, is so much of media today is set up to do that because that gets ratings, I guess.
So they'll pit people that they know have differing viewpoints and put them down in chairs next to each other.
And that's just like, bleh.
Yeah, but it's like The Simpsons taught us.
If you just don't look, it'll eventually go away.
So if you don't like that kind of media, just don't watch it.
Yeah, agreed.
Well, thank you, Chris.
That was really, really nice.
We love hearing that kind of stuff.
That's just a really kind email, and we thank you for it.
If you want to be like Chris and send us a kind email, we are always open to receiving one of those.
You can send it off to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.
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Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's here too, and we're just hanging out feeling irie here on Stuff You Should Know.
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's here too, and we're just hanging out feeling irie here on Stuff You Should Know.
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's here too, and we're just hanging out feeling irie here on Stuff You Should Know.
I never subscribed. I was way too paranoid to do something like that. But yes, I read it. I looked at the pictures.
I never subscribed. I was way too paranoid to do something like that. But yes, I read it. I looked at the pictures.
I never subscribed. I was way too paranoid to do something like that. But yes, I read it. I looked at the pictures.
Yeah. I mean, it was legitimately cool during a certain period of life. Yeah. Like if you were 50 doing that, it's kind of sad. But if you're like 20 or 19 or 21 or 20 and a half, let's say, then, yeah, I get it.
Yeah. I mean, it was legitimately cool during a certain period of life. Yeah. Like if you were 50 doing that, it's kind of sad. But if you're like 20 or 19 or 21 or 20 and a half, let's say, then, yeah, I get it.
Yeah. I mean, it was legitimately cool during a certain period of life. Yeah. Like if you were 50 doing that, it's kind of sad. But if you're like 20 or 19 or 21 or 20 and a half, let's say, then, yeah, I get it.
Yeah, it's true. But, I mean, do they have it on their coffee table?
Yeah, it's true. But, I mean, do they have it on their coffee table?
Yeah, it's true. But, I mean, do they have it on their coffee table?
I think that's the thing that's getting me.
I think that's the thing that's getting me.
I think that's the thing that's getting me.
Yeah. And also one of the other things, too, I was going to say you could sense it, but no, it was just really overt, was they had an agenda in every single one of their articles. There was a way they wanted you to think, which is their position on it. And they would like mock the other position on it, typically the government's position on like legalization or something like that.
Yeah. And also one of the other things, too, I was going to say you could sense it, but no, it was just really overt, was they had an agenda in every single one of their articles. There was a way they wanted you to think, which is their position on it. And they would like mock the other position on it, typically the government's position on like legalization or something like that.
Yeah. And also one of the other things, too, I was going to say you could sense it, but no, it was just really overt, was they had an agenda in every single one of their articles. There was a way they wanted you to think, which is their position on it. And they would like mock the other position on it, typically the government's position on like legalization or something like that.
Over time, though, I mean, it became it's an iconic magazine.
Over time, though, I mean, it became it's an iconic magazine.
Over time, though, I mean, it became it's an iconic magazine.
Pretty much everybody's heard of High Times. If you've never even picked one up, there's a good chance you've heard of High Times or somebody referencing High Times. It's like it insinuated itself into American pop culture. And the reason why it became iconic is it survived all sorts of.
Pretty much everybody's heard of High Times. If you've never even picked one up, there's a good chance you've heard of High Times or somebody referencing High Times. It's like it insinuated itself into American pop culture. And the reason why it became iconic is it survived all sorts of.
Pretty much everybody's heard of High Times. If you've never even picked one up, there's a good chance you've heard of High Times or somebody referencing High Times. It's like it insinuated itself into American pop culture. And the reason why it became iconic is it survived all sorts of.
Drug culture transitions like like throughout all these different like ways of thinking and looking at drugs and different drugs people were doing high times managed to just keep plodding along and stay relevant, I guess, is the best way to put it. I didn't think I was going to say that out loud, but here we are.
Drug culture transitions like like throughout all these different like ways of thinking and looking at drugs and different drugs people were doing high times managed to just keep plodding along and stay relevant, I guess, is the best way to put it. I didn't think I was going to say that out loud, but here we are.
Drug culture transitions like like throughout all these different like ways of thinking and looking at drugs and different drugs people were doing high times managed to just keep plodding along and stay relevant, I guess, is the best way to put it. I didn't think I was going to say that out loud, but here we are.
I agree. I agree. So High Times was founded by a guy named Thomas King Forsad. And I just realized I didn't look up any videos of people pronouncing his name, but I'm pretty sure that's how it's spelled.
I agree. I agree. So High Times was founded by a guy named Thomas King Forsad. And I just realized I didn't look up any videos of people pronouncing his name, but I'm pretty sure that's how it's spelled.
I agree. I agree. So High Times was founded by a guy named Thomas King Forsad. And I just realized I didn't look up any videos of people pronouncing his name, but I'm pretty sure that's how it's spelled.
Well, I've seen the little French version of the umlaut, the little devil's tail coming off of the bottom of the sea.
Well, I've seen the little French version of the umlaut, the little devil's tail coming off of the bottom of the sea.
Well, I've seen the little French version of the umlaut, the little devil's tail coming off of the bottom of the sea.
And that indicates a sound, if my high school French doesn't fail me. So I think his name was Thomas King Fursaad.
And that indicates a sound, if my high school French doesn't fail me. So I think his name was Thomas King Fursaad.
And that indicates a sound, if my high school French doesn't fail me. So I think his name was Thomas King Fursaad.
I was going to say, it looks like the Allman Brothers satanic advisor.
I was going to say, it looks like the Allman Brothers satanic advisor.
I was going to say, it looks like the Allman Brothers satanic advisor.
Yeah, and you know that same 50-year-old who's upset because I said something about high times on his coffee table? He's pretty much a wavy gravy lookalike, too.
Yeah, and you know that same 50-year-old who's upset because I said something about high times on his coffee table? He's pretty much a wavy gravy lookalike, too.
Yeah, and you know that same 50-year-old who's upset because I said something about high times on his coffee table? He's pretty much a wavy gravy lookalike, too.
Right. So this guy, Thomas King Farsad, it's a pretty cool name. And if it sounds made up, it is made up. His real name was Gary Goodson. And it's not because his name was Gary Goodson that he ditched that name in favor of Thomas King for sod. He was actually a big, big time pot dealer.
Right. So this guy, Thomas King Farsad, it's a pretty cool name. And if it sounds made up, it is made up. His real name was Gary Goodson. And it's not because his name was Gary Goodson that he ditched that name in favor of Thomas King for sod. He was actually a big, big time pot dealer.
Right. So this guy, Thomas King Farsad, it's a pretty cool name. And if it sounds made up, it is made up. His real name was Gary Goodson. And it's not because his name was Gary Goodson that he ditched that name in favor of Thomas King for sod. He was actually a big, big time pot dealer.
Like not only did he sell literal tons of pot in like the I think starting in the late 60s and going well into past the time he was had started publishing High Times. He smuggled it himself. He flew planes and he went to Mexico, he went to Jamaica, and he smuggled pot, tons of pot at a time, into the United States.
Like not only did he sell literal tons of pot in like the I think starting in the late 60s and going well into past the time he was had started publishing High Times. He smuggled it himself. He flew planes and he went to Mexico, he went to Jamaica, and he smuggled pot, tons of pot at a time, into the United States.
Like not only did he sell literal tons of pot in like the I think starting in the late 60s and going well into past the time he was had started publishing High Times. He smuggled it himself. He flew planes and he went to Mexico, he went to Jamaica, and he smuggled pot, tons of pot at a time, into the United States.
Tell them about the issue with the peace sign in the bullet hole.
Tell them about the issue with the peace sign in the bullet hole.
Tell them about the issue with the peace sign in the bullet hole.
Yeah, he shot bundles of stacks wrapped together with a Colt .45 handgun to really kind of drive the point home.
Yeah, he shot bundles of stacks wrapped together with a Colt .45 handgun to really kind of drive the point home.
Yeah, he shot bundles of stacks wrapped together with a Colt .45 handgun to really kind of drive the point home.
That is an underground zine right there. If it has a bullet hole in it that the publisher put there, that's really something. Yeah, it's like with real blood. Right.
That is an underground zine right there. If it has a bullet hole in it that the publisher put there, that's really something. Yeah, it's like with real blood. Right.
That is an underground zine right there. If it has a bullet hole in it that the publisher put there, that's really something. Yeah, it's like with real blood. Right.
You said something that I think is really worth pointing out, because there's a whole camp of people who tell this origin story of high times and Thomas King facade that is like just some money making scheme or just a lark or something like that. This guy in actuality was a dedicated First Amendment warrior, like dedicated.
You said something that I think is really worth pointing out, because there's a whole camp of people who tell this origin story of high times and Thomas King facade that is like just some money making scheme or just a lark or something like that. This guy in actuality was a dedicated First Amendment warrior, like dedicated.
You said something that I think is really worth pointing out, because there's a whole camp of people who tell this origin story of high times and Thomas King facade that is like just some money making scheme or just a lark or something like that. This guy in actuality was a dedicated First Amendment warrior, like dedicated.
And also he was very committed to the counterculture, not just because he sold tons of weed, but he genuinely believed in legalizing marijuana, that that was a crucial thing to do in the United States. And he put his money where his mouth is. And like you said, he started with underground zines. And then he took up – I saw that he joined or he founded. I couldn't tell which one was correct.
And also he was very committed to the counterculture, not just because he sold tons of weed, but he genuinely believed in legalizing marijuana, that that was a crucial thing to do in the United States. And he put his money where his mouth is. And like you said, he started with underground zines. And then he took up – I saw that he joined or he founded. I couldn't tell which one was correct.
And also he was very committed to the counterculture, not just because he sold tons of weed, but he genuinely believed in legalizing marijuana, that that was a crucial thing to do in the United States. And he put his money where his mouth is. And like you said, he started with underground zines. And then he took up – I saw that he joined or he founded. I couldn't tell which one was correct.
Well, it's basically like an associated press for underground magazines. It was called the Underground Press Syndicate. And I think it changed its name to something else, right?
Well, it's basically like an associated press for underground magazines. It was called the Underground Press Syndicate. And I think it changed its name to something else, right?
Well, it's basically like an associated press for underground magazines. It was called the Underground Press Syndicate. And I think it changed its name to something else, right?
But we'll just call it that. But it was, like I said, the AP where you could you could like get all sorts of news about drug busts or about, you know, some spectacular pot harvest or something to do with underground culture. And you could just print it in your your local mag. And the people in Phoenix are reading the same thing as the people in Denver. But they don't know that.
But we'll just call it that. But it was, like I said, the AP where you could you could like get all sorts of news about drug busts or about, you know, some spectacular pot harvest or something to do with underground culture. And you could just print it in your your local mag. And the people in Phoenix are reading the same thing as the people in Denver. But they don't know that.
But we'll just call it that. But it was, like I said, the AP where you could you could like get all sorts of news about drug busts or about, you know, some spectacular pot harvest or something to do with underground culture. And you could just print it in your your local mag. And the people in Phoenix are reading the same thing as the people in Denver. But they don't know that.
They just think it's like part of your magazine.
They just think it's like part of your magazine.
They just think it's like part of your magazine.
No, it's not that. I just think that guy's gotten more than enough of his spotlight. But, yes.
No, it's not that. I just think that guy's gotten more than enough of his spotlight. But, yes.
No, it's not that. I just think that guy's gotten more than enough of his spotlight. But, yes.
You know what, then? Forget it. Okay. Wow. I didn't think I was going to talk you out of that one.
You know what, then? Forget it. Okay. Wow. I didn't think I was going to talk you out of that one.
You know what, then? Forget it. Okay. Wow. I didn't think I was going to talk you out of that one.
Yeah, because if you take out the O. And no, if you change the O to an A and take out the R, you've got facade, like the front of a building. So I'm making an educated guess here.
Yeah, because if you take out the O. And no, if you change the O to an A and take out the R, you've got facade, like the front of a building. So I'm making an educated guess here.
Yeah, because if you take out the O. And no, if you change the O to an A and take out the R, you've got facade, like the front of a building. So I'm making an educated guess here.
That's OK. I was reading the High Times archives and I guess they had some like sixth grade trained AI scan and alter or turn all of their magazine photos into text. And boy, they came up with some creative ways of spelling that guy's name.
That's OK. I was reading the High Times archives and I guess they had some like sixth grade trained AI scan and alter or turn all of their magazine photos into text. And boy, they came up with some creative ways of spelling that guy's name.
That's OK. I was reading the High Times archives and I guess they had some like sixth grade trained AI scan and alter or turn all of their magazine photos into text. And boy, they came up with some creative ways of spelling that guy's name.
There's few things that are funner, but also more shocking than looking at vintage cocaine paraphernalia ads that appeared in the likes of High Times and other magazines. Yeah. And there was one that I pointed out to you that was just... Like this thing should be in the Smithsonian. It was a metal, probably like a gold plated Coke tube.
There's few things that are funner, but also more shocking than looking at vintage cocaine paraphernalia ads that appeared in the likes of High Times and other magazines. Yeah. And there was one that I pointed out to you that was just... Like this thing should be in the Smithsonian. It was a metal, probably like a gold plated Coke tube.
There's few things that are funner, but also more shocking than looking at vintage cocaine paraphernalia ads that appeared in the likes of High Times and other magazines. Yeah. And there was one that I pointed out to you that was just... Like this thing should be in the Smithsonian. It was a metal, probably like a gold plated Coke tube.
So you put one end in the Coke and you put the other end up your nose and you sniff. Right. Just in case you didn't know how to ingest cocaine.
So you put one end in the Coke and you put the other end up your nose and you sniff. Right. Just in case you didn't know how to ingest cocaine.
So you put one end in the Coke and you put the other end up your nose and you sniff. Right. Just in case you didn't know how to ingest cocaine.
It's shaped like an old school vacuum cleaner. And so the Coke goes into the bottom of the vacuum cleaner and comes out the handle, which is up in your nose. They call it the Hoover instead of the Hoover. Like whoever came up with this is just, that's dedication right there. Because that's the kind of idea you'd just be like, man, we should totally make this.
It's shaped like an old school vacuum cleaner. And so the Coke goes into the bottom of the vacuum cleaner and comes out the handle, which is up in your nose. They call it the Hoover instead of the Hoover. Like whoever came up with this is just, that's dedication right there. Because that's the kind of idea you'd just be like, man, we should totally make this.
It's shaped like an old school vacuum cleaner. And so the Coke goes into the bottom of the vacuum cleaner and comes out the handle, which is up in your nose. They call it the Hoover instead of the Hoover. Like whoever came up with this is just, that's dedication right there. Because that's the kind of idea you'd just be like, man, we should totally make this.
But then the person actually went and made it and sold it.
But then the person actually went and made it and sold it.
But then the person actually went and made it and sold it.
Exactly. And if you knew what you were doing, you could clip the ends off of all those prizes and use them as Coke straws.
Exactly. And if you knew what you were doing, you could clip the ends off of all those prizes and use them as Coke straws.
Exactly. And if you knew what you were doing, you could clip the ends off of all those prizes and use them as Coke straws.
Yeah. Who was the chairman of that committee on obscenity and pornography? Right.
Yeah. Who was the chairman of that committee on obscenity and pornography? Right.
Yeah. Who was the chairman of that committee on obscenity and pornography? Right.
Yeah, it was a form of protest that picked up really quick. I mean, there's few things you can do to somebody publicly that is more disrespectful and humiliating, but also non injurious. Then pie him in the face. But he did that.
Yeah, it was a form of protest that picked up really quick. I mean, there's few things you can do to somebody publicly that is more disrespectful and humiliating, but also non injurious. Then pie him in the face. But he did that.
Yeah, it was a form of protest that picked up really quick. I mean, there's few things you can do to somebody publicly that is more disrespectful and humiliating, but also non injurious. Then pie him in the face. But he did that.
He was called to testify. And not only did he say that censorship is the true obscenity, he said F censorship and F you. And then he pied the guy in the face in a congressional hearing. This is what he did. This is just the kind of person he was. Like he wasn't somebody who just talked a big game. Like this guy followed through on the stuff that he really believed in.
He was called to testify. And not only did he say that censorship is the true obscenity, he said F censorship and F you. And then he pied the guy in the face in a congressional hearing. This is what he did. This is just the kind of person he was. Like he wasn't somebody who just talked a big game. Like this guy followed through on the stuff that he really believed in.
He was called to testify. And not only did he say that censorship is the true obscenity, he said F censorship and F you. And then he pied the guy in the face in a congressional hearing. This is what he did. This is just the kind of person he was. Like he wasn't somebody who just talked a big game. Like this guy followed through on the stuff that he really believed in.
Hey, everybody. It's Chuck and Josh here to talk to you about Squarespace. Squarespace makes it easy to build the website of your dreams and do whatever you like with it.
Hey, everybody. It's Chuck and Josh here to talk to you about Squarespace. Squarespace makes it easy to build the website of your dreams and do whatever you like with it.
Hey, everybody. It's Chuck and Josh here to talk to you about Squarespace. Squarespace makes it easy to build the website of your dreams and do whatever you like with it.
Yeah, and when it's time to collect that money, Squarespace offers an easier way to collect payments so you can focus on growing your business. You can invoice clients and get paid for your services, turn leads into clients with proposals, estimates, and contracts, and simplify your workflow and manage your service business on one platform. What else could you possibly ask for?
Yeah, and when it's time to collect that money, Squarespace offers an easier way to collect payments so you can focus on growing your business. You can invoice clients and get paid for your services, turn leads into clients with proposals, estimates, and contracts, and simplify your workflow and manage your service business on one platform. What else could you possibly ask for?
Yeah, and when it's time to collect that money, Squarespace offers an easier way to collect payments so you can focus on growing your business. You can invoice clients and get paid for your services, turn leads into clients with proposals, estimates, and contracts, and simplify your workflow and manage your service business on one platform. What else could you possibly ask for?
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Yep, know you're getting the best products for you without doing all the research yourself. So let NerdWallet do the heavy lifting for your finances this year and head over to their 2025 Best of Awards at nerdwallet.com slash awards to find the best financial products today. Well, it's officially too cold to do anything, Chuck.
Yep, know you're getting the best products for you without doing all the research yourself. So let NerdWallet do the heavy lifting for your finances this year and head over to their 2025 Best of Awards at nerdwallet.com slash awards to find the best financial products today. Well, it's officially too cold to do anything, Chuck.
Yep, know you're getting the best products for you without doing all the research yourself. So let NerdWallet do the heavy lifting for your finances this year and head over to their 2025 Best of Awards at nerdwallet.com slash awards to find the best financial products today. Well, it's officially too cold to do anything, Chuck.
But the upside is that you can cocoon yourself in Bombas socks, slippers and underwear all winter long.
But the upside is that you can cocoon yourself in Bombas socks, slippers and underwear all winter long.
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Later on, he followed the Sex Pistols around and co-produced a documentary on them called DOA.
Later on, he followed the Sex Pistols around and co-produced a documentary on them called DOA.
Later on, he followed the Sex Pistols around and co-produced a documentary on them called DOA.
Right. Exactly. Michael Kennedy, who was for Saad's personal attorney and then came on as High Times legal counsel from like the beginning until I think 2016 when he died. He explained it that High Times was meant to be a way to use free speech to teach people how to grow pot.
Right. Exactly. Michael Kennedy, who was for Saad's personal attorney and then came on as High Times legal counsel from like the beginning until I think 2016 when he died. He explained it that High Times was meant to be a way to use free speech to teach people how to grow pot.
Right. Exactly. Michael Kennedy, who was for Saad's personal attorney and then came on as High Times legal counsel from like the beginning until I think 2016 when he died. He explained it that High Times was meant to be a way to use free speech to teach people how to grow pot.
And that like they basically had found a loophole, thanks to the First Amendment, that they could disseminate all of this information as far and as wide as they possibly could. And in teaching people to grow their own pot, That would eventually change attitudes about pot and potentially lead to legalization. And as we'll see that they were successful in that quest that they started back in 1974.
And that like they basically had found a loophole, thanks to the First Amendment, that they could disseminate all of this information as far and as wide as they possibly could. And in teaching people to grow their own pot, That would eventually change attitudes about pot and potentially lead to legalization. And as we'll see that they were successful in that quest that they started back in 1974.
And that like they basically had found a loophole, thanks to the First Amendment, that they could disseminate all of this information as far and as wide as they possibly could. And in teaching people to grow their own pot, That would eventually change attitudes about pot and potentially lead to legalization. And as we'll see that they were successful in that quest that they started back in 1974.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, that's right.
Right. Or illicit drug versus illicit drug. Like at the time. Well, the Controlled Substances Act of 1970 had just been passed thanks to Richard Nixon and marijuana. which, by the way, I read is not at all racist. There was a Latino, I think, historian who researched it. And he's like, that's actually myth.
Right. Or illicit drug versus illicit drug. Like at the time. Well, the Controlled Substances Act of 1970 had just been passed thanks to Richard Nixon and marijuana. which, by the way, I read is not at all racist. There was a Latino, I think, historian who researched it. And he's like, that's actually myth.
Right. Or illicit drug versus illicit drug. Like at the time. Well, the Controlled Substances Act of 1970 had just been passed thanks to Richard Nixon and marijuana. which, by the way, I read is not at all racist. There was a Latino, I think, historian who researched it. And he's like, that's actually myth.
So good for him that it was a schedule one, which I think it still was until like this year, which means that it has, according to the government, No medicinal value whatsoever and the high potential for abuse. And both of those are just absolute lies. They're just not correct. They're not true.
So good for him that it was a schedule one, which I think it still was until like this year, which means that it has, according to the government, No medicinal value whatsoever and the high potential for abuse. And both of those are just absolute lies. They're just not correct. They're not true.
So good for him that it was a schedule one, which I think it still was until like this year, which means that it has, according to the government, No medicinal value whatsoever and the high potential for abuse. And both of those are just absolute lies. They're just not correct. They're not true.
They knew this back in 1970 and that this Controlled Substances Act kicked off the war on drugs, which in retrospect, most people now agree was misguided and a huge waste of money and killed a lot of people. Right. And this was the era that – And incarcerated. Yes, incarcerated. It's a big one too.
They knew this back in 1970 and that this Controlled Substances Act kicked off the war on drugs, which in retrospect, most people now agree was misguided and a huge waste of money and killed a lot of people. Right. And this was the era that – And incarcerated. Yes, incarcerated. It's a big one too.
They knew this back in 1970 and that this Controlled Substances Act kicked off the war on drugs, which in retrospect, most people now agree was misguided and a huge waste of money and killed a lot of people. Right. And this was the era that – And incarcerated. Yes, incarcerated. It's a big one too.
But it was in this era, the beginning of this era, that high times started to kind of become not just an idea but an actuality. So they wanted to fight that, which was part of the reason they were willing to like – use mockery or just all of their articles had a slant to it because they felt like they were taking on liars.
But it was in this era, the beginning of this era, that high times started to kind of become not just an idea but an actuality. So they wanted to fight that, which was part of the reason they were willing to like – use mockery or just all of their articles had a slant to it because they felt like they were taking on liars.
But it was in this era, the beginning of this era, that high times started to kind of become not just an idea but an actuality. So they wanted to fight that, which was part of the reason they were willing to like – use mockery or just all of their articles had a slant to it because they felt like they were taking on liars.
And that's a legitimate way to respond to liars is through mockery or really kind of pushing your agenda against them. But that was a huge, I think, impetus for creating High Times for sure.
And that's a legitimate way to respond to liars is through mockery or really kind of pushing your agenda against them. But that was a huge, I think, impetus for creating High Times for sure.
And that's a legitimate way to respond to liars is through mockery or really kind of pushing your agenda against them. But that was a huge, I think, impetus for creating High Times for sure.
Well, yeah, they threw a launch party at the Gramercy Park Hotel in New York and invited like a bunch of media and just got them messed up. Like straight button down media types, journalists, some like TV news people showed up and were like giving brownies and like, here, try nitrous oxide. And have you ever had cocaine? Yeah.
Well, yeah, they threw a launch party at the Gramercy Park Hotel in New York and invited like a bunch of media and just got them messed up. Like straight button down media types, journalists, some like TV news people showed up and were like giving brownies and like, here, try nitrous oxide. And have you ever had cocaine? Yeah.
Well, yeah, they threw a launch party at the Gramercy Park Hotel in New York and invited like a bunch of media and just got them messed up. Like straight button down media types, journalists, some like TV news people showed up and were like giving brownies and like, here, try nitrous oxide. And have you ever had cocaine? Yeah.
And I read a quote from Michael Kennedy, the legal counsel for High Times. He said that he remembers three or four lawsuits being brought against High Times from people who got so wasted for the first time in their lives that they decided to sue the magazine for it.
And I read a quote from Michael Kennedy, the legal counsel for High Times. He said that he remembers three or four lawsuits being brought against High Times from people who got so wasted for the first time in their lives that they decided to sue the magazine for it.
And I read a quote from Michael Kennedy, the legal counsel for High Times. He said that he remembers three or four lawsuits being brought against High Times from people who got so wasted for the first time in their lives that they decided to sue the magazine for it.
The first one, I would take issue with the idea that it was beautiful. It was a 20-pound brick of schwag, just brown and compressed and ugly. But at the time, it was like their premier weed, Colombian. And just another aside, I'm sorry about this, but... I wonder.
The first one, I would take issue with the idea that it was beautiful. It was a 20-pound brick of schwag, just brown and compressed and ugly. But at the time, it was like their premier weed, Colombian. And just another aside, I'm sorry about this, but... I wonder.
The first one, I would take issue with the idea that it was beautiful. It was a 20-pound brick of schwag, just brown and compressed and ugly. But at the time, it was like their premier weed, Colombian. And just another aside, I'm sorry about this, but... I wonder.
So I've always wondered in Hey 19, the Steely Dan song, when he says the Cuervo gold and the fine Colombian, is he talking about cocaine or is he talking about pot? And I went and researched this and I stumbled into like a longstanding argument.
So I've always wondered in Hey 19, the Steely Dan song, when he says the Cuervo gold and the fine Colombian, is he talking about cocaine or is he talking about pot? And I went and researched this and I stumbled into like a longstanding argument.
So I've always wondered in Hey 19, the Steely Dan song, when he says the Cuervo gold and the fine Colombian, is he talking about cocaine or is he talking about pot? And I went and researched this and I stumbled into like a longstanding argument.
Yeah, I read an explanation from one person, and it sounded pretty legit. They said it's 100% pot that they were talking about. That's what you called really good pot. Back in the 70s, it was Colombian. And it wouldn't have referred to cocaine in the first place because at that time, most of the cocaine came from Peru. Colombian farmers hadn't really taken up coca production.
Yeah, I read an explanation from one person, and it sounded pretty legit. They said it's 100% pot that they were talking about. That's what you called really good pot. Back in the 70s, it was Colombian. And it wouldn't have referred to cocaine in the first place because at that time, most of the cocaine came from Peru. Colombian farmers hadn't really taken up coca production.
Yeah, I read an explanation from one person, and it sounded pretty legit. They said it's 100% pot that they were talking about. That's what you called really good pot. Back in the 70s, it was Colombian. And it wouldn't have referred to cocaine in the first place because at that time, most of the cocaine came from Peru. Colombian farmers hadn't really taken up coca production.
And so most people, if you were aware of cocaine, you were like, this is some fine Peruvian. You wouldn't say this is some fine Colombian. So it seems like that guy settled it, at least in my mind.
And so most people, if you were aware of cocaine, you were like, this is some fine Peruvian. You wouldn't say this is some fine Colombian. So it seems like that guy settled it, at least in my mind.
And so most people, if you were aware of cocaine, you were like, this is some fine Peruvian. You wouldn't say this is some fine Colombian. So it seems like that guy settled it, at least in my mind.
I guess it does. Sure.
I guess it does. Sure.
I guess it does. Sure.
No. It's pretty good. Like about the people who came up with Yacht Rock?
No. It's pretty good. Like about the people who came up with Yacht Rock?
No. It's pretty good. Like about the people who came up with Yacht Rock?
Oh, okay. So, like, it goes back to the 70s and 80s?
Oh, okay. So, like, it goes back to the 70s and 80s?
Oh, okay. So, like, it goes back to the 70s and 80s?
Well, there's a band called Yacht Rock that kicked it all off, and I don't know.
Well, there's a band called Yacht Rock that kicked it all off, and I don't know.
Well, there's a band called Yacht Rock that kicked it all off, and I don't know.
Could have been going on tour with them. Yeah.
Could have been going on tour with them. Yeah.
Could have been going on tour with them. Yeah.
Have you seen the limited series Black Doves?
Have you seen the limited series Black Doves?
Have you seen the limited series Black Doves?
It's a British spy thriller, like eight or ten episode show.
It's a British spy thriller, like eight or ten episode show.
It's a British spy thriller, like eight or ten episode show.
It's really good.
It's really good.
It's really good.
No, I'm with you. No, just go watch it. I recommend it.
No, I'm with you. No, just go watch it. I recommend it.
No, I'm with you. No, just go watch it. I recommend it.
Just text me and be like, what was the thing with the thing? I don't know what you're talking about.
Just text me and be like, what was the thing with the thing? I don't know what you're talking about.
Just text me and be like, what was the thing with the thing? I don't know what you're talking about.
I don't have my phone on me. It's on the charger.
I don't have my phone on me. It's on the charger.
I don't have my phone on me. It's on the charger.
Well, but also rightfully so. The FBI and possibly even the CIA was infiltrating the counterculture and planting informants. And there was a time where he was like, there's an informant here, the high time staff, and I don't know which one of you it is. There may have been. Yeah, it's possible.
Well, but also rightfully so. The FBI and possibly even the CIA was infiltrating the counterculture and planting informants. And there was a time where he was like, there's an informant here, the high time staff, and I don't know which one of you it is. There may have been. Yeah, it's possible.
Well, but also rightfully so. The FBI and possibly even the CIA was infiltrating the counterculture and planting informants. And there was a time where he was like, there's an informant here, the high time staff, and I don't know which one of you it is. There may have been. Yeah, it's possible.
Like he had reason to be paranoid at the very least, but it was definitely fueled to extremes through his drug use for sure.
Like he had reason to be paranoid at the very least, but it was definitely fueled to extremes through his drug use for sure.
Like he had reason to be paranoid at the very least, but it was definitely fueled to extremes through his drug use for sure.
Yeah. I mean, that's like some heavyweight underground stuff right there that they got into their pages for sure. And yeah, I think the latest thing you mentioned was 1978 with Truman Capote and Andy Warhol. So this is all in like the first four years that they're cramming all this stuff in there.
Yeah. I mean, that's like some heavyweight underground stuff right there that they got into their pages for sure. And yeah, I think the latest thing you mentioned was 1978 with Truman Capote and Andy Warhol. So this is all in like the first four years that they're cramming all this stuff in there.
Yeah. I mean, that's like some heavyweight underground stuff right there that they got into their pages for sure. And yeah, I think the latest thing you mentioned was 1978 with Truman Capote and Andy Warhol. So this is all in like the first four years that they're cramming all this stuff in there.
So, yeah, right out of the gate, it was it was very successful in part, Chuck, because there was nothing like this in existence before. I mean, aside from some underground zines that 50 people read before High Times, it became a national magazine. A national magazine about pot and people who love pot and love drugs and want to see them legalized.
So, yeah, right out of the gate, it was it was very successful in part, Chuck, because there was nothing like this in existence before. I mean, aside from some underground zines that 50 people read before High Times, it became a national magazine. A national magazine about pot and people who love pot and love drugs and want to see them legalized.
So, yeah, right out of the gate, it was it was very successful in part, Chuck, because there was nothing like this in existence before. I mean, aside from some underground zines that 50 people read before High Times, it became a national magazine. A national magazine about pot and people who love pot and love drugs and want to see them legalized.
And here's how you do it and here's how you grow this stuff. And today it seems like it's not a really big thing to talk about pot or to find an article about people smoking pot in Newsweek or whatever.
And here's how you do it and here's how you grow this stuff. And today it seems like it's not a really big thing to talk about pot or to find an article about people smoking pot in Newsweek or whatever.
And here's how you do it and here's how you grow this stuff. And today it seems like it's not a really big thing to talk about pot or to find an article about people smoking pot in Newsweek or whatever.
And that is because High Times existed and laid the groundwork for it.
And that is because High Times existed and laid the groundwork for it.
And that is because High Times existed and laid the groundwork for it.
Yeah, that's crazy.
Yeah, that's crazy.
Yeah, that's crazy.
That always reminds me of that episode from Six Feet Under where the daughter finds some actors who are snorting their co-star's ashes. I don't remember that one. She OD'd on cocaine or something like that and died. I can't remember the daughter's name from Six Feet Under, but she finds them doing this. Claire. Claire. She just goes bonkers on them. Like, what is wrong with you? It's really good.
That always reminds me of that episode from Six Feet Under where the daughter finds some actors who are snorting their co-star's ashes. I don't remember that one. She OD'd on cocaine or something like that and died. I can't remember the daughter's name from Six Feet Under, but she finds them doing this. Claire. Claire. She just goes bonkers on them. Like, what is wrong with you? It's really good.
That always reminds me of that episode from Six Feet Under where the daughter finds some actors who are snorting their co-star's ashes. I don't remember that one. She OD'd on cocaine or something like that and died. I can't remember the daughter's name from Six Feet Under, but she finds them doing this. Claire. Claire. She just goes bonkers on them. Like, what is wrong with you? It's really good.
It's very satisfying. Yeah.
It's very satisfying. Yeah.
It's very satisfying. Yeah.
She was so morally offended by what she was seeing that she just unleashed on them. It was weird for her, but it fit the moment.
She was so morally offended by what she was seeing that she just unleashed on them. It was weird for her, but it fit the moment.
She was so morally offended by what she was seeing that she just unleashed on them. It was weird for her, but it fit the moment.
I don't think she was there yet. I think she was younger.
I don't think she was there yet. I think she was younger.
I don't think she was there yet. I think she was younger.
Right. And so, I mean, the DEA had tried to take down High Times many times. This is the one they almost got them with because it took out their advertisers. Their advertisers went to jail or were run out of business. And all of a sudden, a huge amount of High Times regular advertising dollars just vanished, like overnight, because of Operation Green Merchant. Something smoked?
Right. And so, I mean, the DEA had tried to take down High Times many times. This is the one they almost got them with because it took out their advertisers. Their advertisers went to jail or were run out of business. And all of a sudden, a huge amount of High Times regular advertising dollars just vanished, like overnight, because of Operation Green Merchant. Something smoked?
Right. And so, I mean, the DEA had tried to take down High Times many times. This is the one they almost got them with because it took out their advertisers. Their advertisers went to jail or were run out of business. And all of a sudden, a huge amount of High Times regular advertising dollars just vanished, like overnight, because of Operation Green Merchant. Something smoked?
It went up in smoke. That's right. Sorry. No, it was worth it for sure. And I read a quote there. They were saying, like, at this point, High Times was on the verge of bankruptcy. The DA almost got them, but they managed to kind of slowly climb their way back and get back into it. In the 90s, this is when I started reading High Times, it was saved by hip-hop.
It went up in smoke. That's right. Sorry. No, it was worth it for sure. And I read a quote there. They were saying, like, at this point, High Times was on the verge of bankruptcy. The DA almost got them, but they managed to kind of slowly climb their way back and get back into it. In the 90s, this is when I started reading High Times, it was saved by hip-hop.
It went up in smoke. That's right. Sorry. No, it was worth it for sure. And I read a quote there. They were saying, like, at this point, High Times was on the verge of bankruptcy. The DA almost got them, but they managed to kind of slowly climb their way back and get back into it. In the 90s, this is when I started reading High Times, it was saved by hip-hop.
Because before Dr. Dre's The Chronic album came out, Pot was just viewed as like, you know, people who listen to like hippies or burnouts like Judas Priest fans, stuff like that. That's who smoked pot. And they were just as likely to sniff glue at the same time. Right.
Because before Dr. Dre's The Chronic album came out, Pot was just viewed as like, you know, people who listen to like hippies or burnouts like Judas Priest fans, stuff like that. That's who smoked pot. And they were just as likely to sniff glue at the same time. Right.
Because before Dr. Dre's The Chronic album came out, Pot was just viewed as like, you know, people who listen to like hippies or burnouts like Judas Priest fans, stuff like that. That's who smoked pot. And they were just as likely to sniff glue at the same time. Right.
Then the chronic came along and it was it just exploded like overnight. Pot was totally in fashion again. And a whole new generation just got into it like really quickly.
Then the chronic came along and it was it just exploded like overnight. Pot was totally in fashion again. And a whole new generation just got into it like really quickly.
Then the chronic came along and it was it just exploded like overnight. Pot was totally in fashion again. And a whole new generation just got into it like really quickly.
Right. For sure. And the one other impact that it had, too, is they helped instruct people how to set up your home grow system. So it's like hydroponic systems started kind of going from a thing you had to put together by going to 50 different stores. Like you can buy this entire hydroponic system through the pages of High Times. They help people learn how to do that along the way.
Right. For sure. And the one other impact that it had, too, is they helped instruct people how to set up your home grow system. So it's like hydroponic systems started kind of going from a thing you had to put together by going to 50 different stores. Like you can buy this entire hydroponic system through the pages of High Times. They help people learn how to do that along the way.
Right. For sure. And the one other impact that it had, too, is they helped instruct people how to set up your home grow system. So it's like hydroponic systems started kind of going from a thing you had to put together by going to 50 different stores. Like you can buy this entire hydroponic system through the pages of High Times. They help people learn how to do that along the way.
And as a result, pot just started at the same time when it became fashionable again in the early 90s. It got exponentially better than it had been leading up to that. It was like somebody threw a switch and all of a sudden pot was what you see or think of it now. Like just sticky buds and gorgeous, like beautiful flowers and all that stuff. Like that really was much more potent.
And as a result, pot just started at the same time when it became fashionable again in the early 90s. It got exponentially better than it had been leading up to that. It was like somebody threw a switch and all of a sudden pot was what you see or think of it now. Like just sticky buds and gorgeous, like beautiful flowers and all that stuff. Like that really was much more potent.
And as a result, pot just started at the same time when it became fashionable again in the early 90s. It got exponentially better than it had been leading up to that. It was like somebody threw a switch and all of a sudden pot was what you see or think of it now. Like just sticky buds and gorgeous, like beautiful flowers and all that stuff. Like that really was much more potent.
Like that happened at about the exact same time as like the Chronic and Snoop Dogg coming out and all that. Like 92, 93 is when it really changed.
Like that happened at about the exact same time as like the Chronic and Snoop Dogg coming out and all that. Like 92, 93 is when it really changed.
Like that happened at about the exact same time as like the Chronic and Snoop Dogg coming out and all that. Like 92, 93 is when it really changed.
It wasn't the 64, was it? Super Nintendo? Yeah, the 64. Was it 64? Okay.
It wasn't the 64, was it? Super Nintendo? Yeah, the 64. Was it 64? Okay.
It wasn't the 64, was it? Super Nintendo? Yeah, the 64. Was it 64? Okay.
I know the mascot of USA Olympics.
I know the mascot of USA Olympics.
I know the mascot of USA Olympics.
Oh, that was a good documentary, too, by the way.
Oh, that was a good documentary, too, by the way.
Oh, that was a good documentary, too, by the way.
I didn't know that. Did I?
I didn't know that. Did I?
I didn't know that. Did I?
That's crazy. I believe it, though. There's probably, like, felt scraps everywhere and half-de-boned chicken and things like that just sitting around.
That's crazy. I believe it, though. There's probably, like, felt scraps everywhere and half-de-boned chicken and things like that just sitting around.
That's crazy. I believe it, though. There's probably, like, felt scraps everywhere and half-de-boned chicken and things like that just sitting around.
Yeah, like they moved that Overton window and made just the concept of legal weed something. They took it from something like a dorm room conversation to this is how you would do it. Here's a path to legalization in the States, you know? Yeah, yeah. And they just made it like a potential— thing, like a real concept. They brought it into existence and helped push it along.
Yeah, like they moved that Overton window and made just the concept of legal weed something. They took it from something like a dorm room conversation to this is how you would do it. Here's a path to legalization in the States, you know? Yeah, yeah. And they just made it like a potential— thing, like a real concept. They brought it into existence and helped push it along.
Yeah, like they moved that Overton window and made just the concept of legal weed something. They took it from something like a dorm room conversation to this is how you would do it. Here's a path to legalization in the States, you know? Yeah, yeah. And they just made it like a potential— thing, like a real concept. They brought it into existence and helped push it along.
I should say they covered the people who were out there like coming into or bringing it into existence or really thinking about it. But through covering them and exposing them to millions of people every month, that kind of got the whole idea out there.
I should say they covered the people who were out there like coming into or bringing it into existence or really thinking about it. But through covering them and exposing them to millions of people every month, that kind of got the whole idea out there.
I should say they covered the people who were out there like coming into or bringing it into existence or really thinking about it. But through covering them and exposing them to millions of people every month, that kind of got the whole idea out there.
Yeah, Thomas Forsyth helped bankroll them in their early days. The National Organization for the Rethinking of Marijuana Legislation? Reform of marijuana legislation.
Yeah, Thomas Forsyth helped bankroll them in their early days. The National Organization for the Rethinking of Marijuana Legislation? Reform of marijuana legislation.
Yeah, Thomas Forsyth helped bankroll them in their early days. The National Organization for the Rethinking of Marijuana Legislation? Reform of marijuana legislation.
Yeah, reform.
Yeah, reform.
Yeah, reform.
You were sitting amid a sea of brass bowls with, like, the tie-dye little plastic middles that you would hold on to?
You were sitting amid a sea of brass bowls with, like, the tie-dye little plastic middles that you would hold on to?
You were sitting amid a sea of brass bowls with, like, the tie-dye little plastic middles that you would hold on to?
That's a little weird. That's so Atlanta.
That's a little weird. That's so Atlanta.
That's a little weird. That's so Atlanta.
Yes. And yet at the same time, especially in like the magazine industry, they're just dismissed as, you know, they're just stoners. They're potheads. Right. And they don't care. They don't seem to to they don't go after awards. They don't like submit their their their writers work for awards and stuff like that. They genuinely don't seem to care about that kind of stuff.
Yes. And yet at the same time, especially in like the magazine industry, they're just dismissed as, you know, they're just stoners. They're potheads. Right. And they don't care. They don't seem to to they don't go after awards. They don't like submit their their their writers work for awards and stuff like that. They genuinely don't seem to care about that kind of stuff.
Yes. And yet at the same time, especially in like the magazine industry, they're just dismissed as, you know, they're just stoners. They're potheads. Right. And they don't care. They don't seem to to they don't go after awards. They don't like submit their their their writers work for awards and stuff like that. They genuinely don't seem to care about that kind of stuff.
Because they're off doing like their own thing and they're actually doing it. But I saw a citation of how popular culture thinks of High Times. They cited a Saturday Night Live skit featuring Jack Black. And he played High Times top reporter. And he was like, I think at a press conference or whatever.
Because they're off doing like their own thing and they're actually doing it. But I saw a citation of how popular culture thinks of High Times. They cited a Saturday Night Live skit featuring Jack Black. And he played High Times top reporter. And he was like, I think at a press conference or whatever.
Because they're off doing like their own thing and they're actually doing it. But I saw a citation of how popular culture thinks of High Times. They cited a Saturday Night Live skit featuring Jack Black. And he played High Times top reporter. And he was like, I think at a press conference or whatever.
And he would stand up to ask a question and then he would forget what he was going to say every time.
And he would stand up to ask a question and then he would forget what he was going to say every time.
And he would stand up to ask a question and then he would forget what he was going to say every time.
Oh, I thought it was hilarious. I didn't even.
Oh, I thought it was hilarious. I didn't even.
Oh, I thought it was hilarious. I didn't even.
Right. But I could not find it anywhere. And it's I just read about it like all the other stuff I'm talking about. I didn't experience it firsthand. I've just read about it.
Right. But I could not find it anywhere. And it's I just read about it like all the other stuff I'm talking about. I didn't experience it firsthand. I've just read about it.
Right. But I could not find it anywhere. And it's I just read about it like all the other stuff I'm talking about. I didn't experience it firsthand. I've just read about it.
Yeah. And I think Jack Black himself was as well.
Yeah. And I think Jack Black himself was as well.
Yeah. And I think Jack Black himself was as well.
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Thanks to the ease and convenience of Amazon One Medical and Amazon Pharmacy, healthcare just got less painful. OK, Chuck, so we were talking about how Stephen Hager guided high times through like a really prolific era. This is like in the 90s, I feel like. And I don't maybe I'm just talking because that was the time I came in contact with it.
Thanks to the ease and convenience of Amazon One Medical and Amazon Pharmacy, healthcare just got less painful. OK, Chuck, so we were talking about how Stephen Hager guided high times through like a really prolific era. This is like in the 90s, I feel like. And I don't maybe I'm just talking because that was the time I came in contact with it.
Thanks to the ease and convenience of Amazon One Medical and Amazon Pharmacy, healthcare just got less painful. OK, Chuck, so we were talking about how Stephen Hager guided high times through like a really prolific era. This is like in the 90s, I feel like. And I don't maybe I'm just talking because that was the time I came in contact with it.
It feels like that's when it really transitioned into like an iconic thing that was never really going to go away, even if it went away. You know what I'm saying?
It feels like that's when it really transitioned into like an iconic thing that was never really going to go away, even if it went away. You know what I'm saying?
It feels like that's when it really transitioned into like an iconic thing that was never really going to go away, even if it went away. You know what I'm saying?
So in 2004, as I understand it, I believe Hager retired in 2003. And so the replacement they brought in for editor in chief, as far as I know, I think we've both seen conflicting stuff, right?
So in 2004, as I understand it, I believe Hager retired in 2003. And so the replacement they brought in for editor in chief, as far as I know, I think we've both seen conflicting stuff, right?
So in 2004, as I understand it, I believe Hager retired in 2003. And so the replacement they brought in for editor in chief, as far as I know, I think we've both seen conflicting stuff, right?
Oh, gotcha. OK, so Richard Stratton came in as the editor in chief and he had bona fides. He served eight years in federal prison for dealing pot.
Oh, gotcha. OK, so Richard Stratton came in as the editor in chief and he had bona fides. He served eight years in federal prison for dealing pot.
Oh, gotcha. OK, so Richard Stratton came in as the editor in chief and he had bona fides. He served eight years in federal prison for dealing pot.
No, he didn't have those. That was the other thing. He was a journalist. He'd reinvented himself as a journalist. I think he had some books under his belt. He wasn't like a bad pick. He made a bad pick. He was very good friends with Norman Mailer. And in fact, one of the reasons he went to prison is he refused to implicate Norman Mailer in his pot dealing activities.
No, he didn't have those. That was the other thing. He was a journalist. He'd reinvented himself as a journalist. I think he had some books under his belt. He wasn't like a bad pick. He made a bad pick. He was very good friends with Norman Mailer. And in fact, one of the reasons he went to prison is he refused to implicate Norman Mailer in his pot dealing activities.
No, he didn't have those. That was the other thing. He was a journalist. He'd reinvented himself as a journalist. I think he had some books under his belt. He wasn't like a bad pick. He made a bad pick. He was very good friends with Norman Mailer. And in fact, one of the reasons he went to prison is he refused to implicate Norman Mailer in his pot dealing activities.
And when he became editor in chief of High Times, he hired Norman Mailer's son, John Buffalo Mailer, who was 25 at the time.
And when he became editor in chief of High Times, he hired Norman Mailer's son, John Buffalo Mailer, who was 25 at the time.
And when he became editor in chief of High Times, he hired Norman Mailer's son, John Buffalo Mailer, who was 25 at the time.
Hired him as executive editor. And yeah, I like his name. John Buffalo Mailer had zero publishing experience whatsoever. And the whole thing, it was just this is a bad time for High Times.
Hired him as executive editor. And yeah, I like his name. John Buffalo Mailer had zero publishing experience whatsoever. And the whole thing, it was just this is a bad time for High Times.
Hired him as executive editor. And yeah, I like his name. John Buffalo Mailer had zero publishing experience whatsoever. And the whole thing, it was just this is a bad time for High Times.
Yeah, and they brought Steve Hager back in to kind of right the ship again.
Yeah, and they brought Steve Hager back in to kind of right the ship again.
Yeah, and they brought Steve Hager back in to kind of right the ship again.
And he did. Like this, High Times started the idea that we should legalize marijuana, worked at it ceaselessly for decades. And finally was still around when that change started happening. And states started talking about actually legalizing pot. Not decriminalizing, but legalizing pot.
And he did. Like this, High Times started the idea that we should legalize marijuana, worked at it ceaselessly for decades. And finally was still around when that change started happening. And states started talking about actually legalizing pot. Not decriminalizing, but legalizing pot.
And he did. Like this, High Times started the idea that we should legalize marijuana, worked at it ceaselessly for decades. And finally was still around when that change started happening. And states started talking about actually legalizing pot. Not decriminalizing, but legalizing pot.
Like you said, not just for medicinal purposes, but hey, if you're an adult and you want to smoke pot, go ahead and smoke pot. You're not going to get in trouble because we don't have any laws against it anymore. Like this was starting to happen. And High Times was right there, totally poised to just...
Like you said, not just for medicinal purposes, but hey, if you're an adult and you want to smoke pot, go ahead and smoke pot. You're not going to get in trouble because we don't have any laws against it anymore. Like this was starting to happen. And High Times was right there, totally poised to just...
Like you said, not just for medicinal purposes, but hey, if you're an adult and you want to smoke pot, go ahead and smoke pot. You're not going to get in trouble because we don't have any laws against it anymore. Like this was starting to happen. And High Times was right there, totally poised to just...
just step up and accept its kudos and its huge rise to prominence as this new changed culture around pot was about to just explode. And around this time, private equity got involved and everything went down the toilet.
just step up and accept its kudos and its huge rise to prominence as this new changed culture around pot was about to just explode. And around this time, private equity got involved and everything went down the toilet.
just step up and accept its kudos and its huge rise to prominence as this new changed culture around pot was about to just explode. And around this time, private equity got involved and everything went down the toilet.
Again, because private equity got involved. That's right. There's a really good Politico article called The Long Fall of High Times by Ben Schreckinger.
Again, because private equity got involved. That's right. There's a really good Politico article called The Long Fall of High Times by Ben Schreckinger.
Again, because private equity got involved. That's right. There's a really good Politico article called The Long Fall of High Times by Ben Schreckinger.
And it's really worth the read. It's very long, but it's good. And that article puts the blame on Adam Levin, who ran Oreva Capital. He's the one who came in as the private equity guy and made all of these terrible decisions, did shady stuff like the announcements for, you know, some of these business ventures like they would announce them publicly.
And it's really worth the read. It's very long, but it's good. And that article puts the blame on Adam Levin, who ran Oreva Capital. He's the one who came in as the private equity guy and made all of these terrible decisions, did shady stuff like the announcements for, you know, some of these business ventures like they would announce them publicly.
And it's really worth the read. It's very long, but it's good. And that article puts the blame on Adam Levin, who ran Oreva Capital. He's the one who came in as the private equity guy and made all of these terrible decisions, did shady stuff like the announcements for, you know, some of these business ventures like they would announce them publicly.
And then the other company involved would have to come out publicly and be like, they haven't even approached us about this. What they just said is not true. So that's not a good thing to do. That IPO was a big deal too, because if you have investors, they want you to go public and then they can really start making money off the company.
And then the other company involved would have to come out publicly and be like, they haven't even approached us about this. What they just said is not true. So that's not a good thing to do. That IPO was a big deal too, because if you have investors, they want you to go public and then they can really start making money off the company.
And then the other company involved would have to come out publicly and be like, they haven't even approached us about this. What they just said is not true. So that's not a good thing to do. That IPO was a big deal too, because if you have investors, they want you to go public and then they can really start making money off the company.
He just couldn't get it together to get the IPO out the door. Yet, that didn't keep them from selling pre-sale shares at $11 a piece to High Times readers, promising them they were getting in on the bottom floor before the IPO even happened. Just shady stuff.
He just couldn't get it together to get the IPO out the door. Yet, that didn't keep them from selling pre-sale shares at $11 a piece to High Times readers, promising them they were getting in on the bottom floor before the IPO even happened. Just shady stuff.
He just couldn't get it together to get the IPO out the door. Yet, that didn't keep them from selling pre-sale shares at $11 a piece to High Times readers, promising them they were getting in on the bottom floor before the IPO even happened. Just shady stuff.
And so this lasted for just a couple of years before the magazine, the whole brand, went into receivership, meaning that there was a corner-pointed person who was in charge of their assets who would try to figure out how to help them get out of bankruptcy or how to help them get out of a hole without going into bankruptcy while at the same time paying off their creditors.
And so this lasted for just a couple of years before the magazine, the whole brand, went into receivership, meaning that there was a corner-pointed person who was in charge of their assets who would try to figure out how to help them get out of bankruptcy or how to help them get out of a hole without going into bankruptcy while at the same time paying off their creditors.
And so this lasted for just a couple of years before the magazine, the whole brand, went into receivership, meaning that there was a corner-pointed person who was in charge of their assets who would try to figure out how to help them get out of bankruptcy or how to help them get out of a hole without going into bankruptcy while at the same time paying off their creditors.
And I guess it didn't really work because in, I guess, May of last year, the receiver said, hey, we're going to have a fire sale. Everybody step up, get out your checkbooks. Let's do this thing.
And I guess it didn't really work because in, I guess, May of last year, the receiver said, hey, we're going to have a fire sale. Everybody step up, get out your checkbooks. Let's do this thing.
And I guess it didn't really work because in, I guess, May of last year, the receiver said, hey, we're going to have a fire sale. Everybody step up, get out your checkbooks. Let's do this thing.
I hope that that ends up being like your Sharknado thing or like the Jared from Subway thing or like your Hugh Jackman Greatest Showman thing. I hope that comes true thanks to you.
I hope that that ends up being like your Sharknado thing or like the Jared from Subway thing or like your Hugh Jackman Greatest Showman thing. I hope that comes true thanks to you.
I hope that that ends up being like your Sharknado thing or like the Jared from Subway thing or like your Hugh Jackman Greatest Showman thing. I hope that comes true thanks to you.
It's possible. He's been on the cover a bunch, but he might not be paying attention, you know?
It's possible. He's been on the cover a bunch, but he might not be paying attention, you know?
It's possible. He's been on the cover a bunch, but he might not be paying attention, you know?
So I read a great quote from Pot Culture magazine. So High Times has just stopped. They put out their last published issue in 2024. And the fact that they were still putting out a print magazine actually says how strong the brand was at one point.
So I read a great quote from Pot Culture magazine. So High Times has just stopped. They put out their last published issue in 2024. And the fact that they were still putting out a print magazine actually says how strong the brand was at one point.
So I read a great quote from Pot Culture magazine. So High Times has just stopped. They put out their last published issue in 2024. And the fact that they were still putting out a print magazine actually says how strong the brand was at one point.
Because they went right through that time where magazines were just folding. Print anything was just folding left and right. And yet they still had the print magazine. And they had a pretty heavyweight website too, hightimes.com. It had their whole archive, all the magazines on it. And yet the website hasn't been updated since June 2024. The last issue was September 2024. Yeah.
Because they went right through that time where magazines were just folding. Print anything was just folding left and right. And yet they still had the print magazine. And they had a pretty heavyweight website too, hightimes.com. It had their whole archive, all the magazines on it. And yet the website hasn't been updated since June 2024. The last issue was September 2024. Yeah.
Because they went right through that time where magazines were just folding. Print anything was just folding left and right. And yet they still had the print magazine. And they had a pretty heavyweight website too, hightimes.com. It had their whole archive, all the magazines on it. And yet the website hasn't been updated since June 2024. The last issue was September 2024. Yeah.
If you go onto the site, none of the images work. They're all grayed out, rectangles.
If you go onto the site, none of the images work. They're all grayed out, rectangles.
If you go onto the site, none of the images work. They're all grayed out, rectangles.
It's very disappointing. And Pot Culture Magazine put it that the once mighty Hightimes.com is gone, reduced to an error message that is reminiscent of finding your favorite uncle dead on the floor. I saw that quote. I don't think anybody could have put it better than that.
It's very disappointing. And Pot Culture Magazine put it that the once mighty Hightimes.com is gone, reduced to an error message that is reminiscent of finding your favorite uncle dead on the floor. I saw that quote. I don't think anybody could have put it better than that.
It's very disappointing. And Pot Culture Magazine put it that the once mighty Hightimes.com is gone, reduced to an error message that is reminiscent of finding your favorite uncle dead on the floor. I saw that quote. I don't think anybody could have put it better than that.
Sure. It would be for sure. But I think that the things have evolved so much that you're fine. Okay. Okay. Good. So yeah, Snoop, Martha, please do buy High Times because it's such an ignominious and is that the right word? Or was I just deleterious to my own vocabulary?
Sure. It would be for sure. But I think that the things have evolved so much that you're fine. Okay. Okay. Good. So yeah, Snoop, Martha, please do buy High Times because it's such an ignominious and is that the right word? Or was I just deleterious to my own vocabulary?
Sure. It would be for sure. But I think that the things have evolved so much that you're fine. Okay. Okay. Good. So yeah, Snoop, Martha, please do buy High Times because it's such an ignominious and is that the right word? Or was I just deleterious to my own vocabulary?
No. Such an unclassy end.
No. Such an unclassy end.
No. Such an unclassy end.
It's just like that magazine deserves better than that.
It's just like that magazine deserves better than that.
It's just like that magazine deserves better than that.
No, I'm with you. I think Martha Stewart has that much laying under in piles under her hodgepodge bottles that we were talking about, you know?
No, I'm with you. I think Martha Stewart has that much laying under in piles under her hodgepodge bottles that we were talking about, you know?
No, I'm with you. I think Martha Stewart has that much laying under in piles under her hodgepodge bottles that we were talking about, you know?
Okay. Well, that's it about High Times. If you want to know more about it, there's tons of tribute articles all over the web to read that are kind of fun. And while you're doing that, it's time for Listener Mail.
Okay. Well, that's it about High Times. If you want to know more about it, there's tons of tribute articles all over the web to read that are kind of fun. And while you're doing that, it's time for Listener Mail.
Okay. Well, that's it about High Times. If you want to know more about it, there's tons of tribute articles all over the web to read that are kind of fun. And while you're doing that, it's time for Listener Mail.
But why do you suck so much?
But why do you suck so much?
But why do you suck so much?
That was a great reminder. We love, love, love being reminded when it's pointed out to us that we fed into something that we were just totally unaware of, especially if it's unjust, you know?
That was a great reminder. We love, love, love being reminded when it's pointed out to us that we fed into something that we were just totally unaware of, especially if it's unjust, you know?
That was a great reminder. We love, love, love being reminded when it's pointed out to us that we fed into something that we were just totally unaware of, especially if it's unjust, you know?
Of course they are. That's right. That should be a t-shirt.
Of course they are. That's right. That should be a t-shirt.
Of course they are. That's right. That should be a t-shirt.
Well, thanks a lot, Rosalie. We appreciate that big time. And if you want to be like Rosalie and send us an email like that, you can send it off to stuffpodcast at iheartradio.com.
Well, thanks a lot, Rosalie. We appreciate that big time. And if you want to be like Rosalie and send us an email like that, you can send it off to stuffpodcast at iheartradio.com.
Well, thanks a lot, Rosalie. We appreciate that big time. And if you want to be like Rosalie and send us an email like that, you can send it off to stuffpodcast at iheartradio.com.
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Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. And Jerry's here, as always, so it's stuff you should know. Stuff you should know.
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. And Jerry's here, as always, so it's stuff you should know. Stuff you should know.
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. And Jerry's here, as always, so it's stuff you should know. Stuff you should know.
It's stuff you should know, eh?
It's stuff you should know, eh?
It's stuff you should know, eh?
Remember the Arrested Development little subplot where Charlize Theron was thought to be a British spy? Oh, yeah. What was... For British eyes only.
Remember the Arrested Development little subplot where Charlize Theron was thought to be a British spy? Oh, yeah. What was... For British eyes only.
Remember the Arrested Development little subplot where Charlize Theron was thought to be a British spy? Oh, yeah. What was... For British eyes only.
Mr. F. Mr. F. That's right. That's right.
Mr. F. Mr. F. That's right. That's right.
Mr. F. Mr. F. That's right. That's right.
I don't know. I just assume. Oh, okay. Oh. This is off to a great start. It's unusual, odd even, you could say that you suggested I say the intro in a British accent because we're talking about foreign accents today, Chuck. That's right. It was coy. I see. Now it makes sense.
I don't know. I just assume. Oh, okay. Oh. This is off to a great start. It's unusual, odd even, you could say that you suggested I say the intro in a British accent because we're talking about foreign accents today, Chuck. That's right. It was coy. I see. Now it makes sense.
I don't know. I just assume. Oh, okay. Oh. This is off to a great start. It's unusual, odd even, you could say that you suggested I say the intro in a British accent because we're talking about foreign accents today, Chuck. That's right. It was coy. I see. Now it makes sense.
Yeah. Yeah. So... So this is from what I understand, this is the point, right? So our accents are extremely personal. They're part of like us individually, but they also signal our membership in different groups, right? So like a farmer is going to talk differently from a stockbroker and a farmer from Georgia is going to talk a lot differently than a stockbroker from Portland, Oregon, right? Okay.
Yeah. Yeah. So... So this is from what I understand, this is the point, right? So our accents are extremely personal. They're part of like us individually, but they also signal our membership in different groups, right? So like a farmer is going to talk differently from a stockbroker and a farmer from Georgia is going to talk a lot differently than a stockbroker from Portland, Oregon, right? Okay.
Yeah. Yeah. So... So this is from what I understand, this is the point, right? So our accents are extremely personal. They're part of like us individually, but they also signal our membership in different groups, right? So like a farmer is going to talk differently from a stockbroker and a farmer from Georgia is going to talk a lot differently than a stockbroker from Portland, Oregon, right? Okay.
Because that's the other stock market seat. You thought I was going to say New York? I did. So when we code switch, when we meet other people and take on their way of talking...
Because that's the other stock market seat. You thought I was going to say New York? I did. So when we code switch, when we meet other people and take on their way of talking...
Because that's the other stock market seat. You thought I was going to say New York? I did. So when we code switch, when we meet other people and take on their way of talking...
it's called code switching and i think it's a way of signaling hey i we have something in common i don't want you to be distracted yeah it's a welcoming thing yeah my my overalls with no shirt on are distracting enough i don't want you to be distracted by my accent too so i think it is a way of saying like hey i'm i'm i'm we have something in common the thing is is
it's called code switching and i think it's a way of signaling hey i we have something in common i don't want you to be distracted yeah it's a welcoming thing yeah my my overalls with no shirt on are distracting enough i don't want you to be distracted by my accent too so i think it is a way of saying like hey i'm i'm i'm we have something in common the thing is is
it's called code switching and i think it's a way of signaling hey i we have something in common i don't want you to be distracted yeah it's a welcoming thing yeah my my overalls with no shirt on are distracting enough i don't want you to be distracted by my accent too so i think it is a way of saying like hey i'm i'm i'm we have something in common the thing is is
Accents are such a part of group identity that if you do that in front of some other members of your group, whether it's your family or your friends or whatever. They're going to tease you. They are going to tease you, guaranteed. And one of the reasons why is because what they're doing consciously or otherwise is maintaining the borders of their own group's identity.
Accents are such a part of group identity that if you do that in front of some other members of your group, whether it's your family or your friends or whatever. They're going to tease you. They are going to tease you, guaranteed. And one of the reasons why is because what they're doing consciously or otherwise is maintaining the borders of their own group's identity.
Accents are such a part of group identity that if you do that in front of some other members of your group, whether it's your family or your friends or whatever. They're going to tease you. They are going to tease you, guaranteed. And one of the reasons why is because what they're doing consciously or otherwise is maintaining the borders of their own group's identity.
They're saying, don't put on airs. Don't think you're fancy. Don't think you're just like that guy. You're one of us. And making fun of somebody who adopts someone else's accent is a way of doing that. It's a way of maintaining group divisions and borders.
They're saying, don't put on airs. Don't think you're fancy. Don't think you're just like that guy. You're one of us. And making fun of somebody who adopts someone else's accent is a way of doing that. It's a way of maintaining group divisions and borders.
They're saying, don't put on airs. Don't think you're fancy. Don't think you're just like that guy. You're one of us. And making fun of somebody who adopts someone else's accent is a way of doing that. It's a way of maintaining group divisions and borders.
Where really, when you do kind of adopt someone else's accent, I think one of the things that you are doing is trying to make the foreigner, the stranger, feel more comfortable. And having met your mom, I guarantee that's what she was doing.
Where really, when you do kind of adopt someone else's accent, I think one of the things that you are doing is trying to make the foreigner, the stranger, feel more comfortable. And having met your mom, I guarantee that's what she was doing.
Where really, when you do kind of adopt someone else's accent, I think one of the things that you are doing is trying to make the foreigner, the stranger, feel more comfortable. And having met your mom, I guarantee that's what she was doing.
Did you guys make fun of her in front of the woman?
Did you guys make fun of her in front of the woman?
Did you guys make fun of her in front of the woman?
Sure.
Sure.
Sure.
Right, and then talk to each other like the kids in Escape from Witch Mountain.
Right, and then talk to each other like the kids in Escape from Witch Mountain.
Right, and then talk to each other like the kids in Escape from Witch Mountain.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Wow, that took a really serious turn at the end there.
Wow, that took a really serious turn at the end there.
Wow, that took a really serious turn at the end there.
And then Jesse always shoots his gun off at the end. Yeah.
And then Jesse always shoots his gun off at the end. Yeah.
And then Jesse always shoots his gun off at the end. Yeah.
Right. That's super rare for sure.
Right. That's super rare for sure.
Right. That's super rare for sure.
And what makes it different from somebody taking on the affect or dialect or accent of somebody else... Someone taking the piss. Right. This is where you can't stop. It's involuntary.
And what makes it different from somebody taking on the affect or dialect or accent of somebody else... Someone taking the piss. Right. This is where you can't stop. It's involuntary.
And what makes it different from somebody taking on the affect or dialect or accent of somebody else... Someone taking the piss. Right. This is where you can't stop. It's involuntary.
And, you know, it sounds weird and exotic. It's an affliction. And you just want to, like, poke the person who's doing that in the neck to be like, what are you doing there? But if you really start to dig into the actual cases... It's sad in a lot of cases. Oh, yeah. Because, again, your accent, what you sound like, makes up a part of your personality.
And, you know, it sounds weird and exotic. It's an affliction. And you just want to, like, poke the person who's doing that in the neck to be like, what are you doing there? But if you really start to dig into the actual cases... It's sad in a lot of cases. Oh, yeah. Because, again, your accent, what you sound like, makes up a part of your personality.
And, you know, it sounds weird and exotic. It's an affliction. And you just want to, like, poke the person who's doing that in the neck to be like, what are you doing there? But if you really start to dig into the actual cases... It's sad in a lot of cases. Oh, yeah. Because, again, your accent, what you sound like, makes up a part of your personality.
So if it changes on you involuntarily, it can be quite traumatic for some people. You could have an identity crisis of sorts.
So if it changes on you involuntarily, it can be quite traumatic for some people. You could have an identity crisis of sorts.
So if it changes on you involuntarily, it can be quite traumatic for some people. You could have an identity crisis of sorts.
And she's like, right, bloody hell. Wait, wait, I need our British listeners to write in and tell me how good my British accent is, okay? Okay.
And she's like, right, bloody hell. Wait, wait, I need our British listeners to write in and tell me how good my British accent is, okay? Okay.
And she's like, right, bloody hell. Wait, wait, I need our British listeners to write in and tell me how good my British accent is, okay? Okay.
Well, they're cartoonish and stereotypical, but they're really, really good cartoonish, stereotypical versions of accents.
Well, they're cartoonish and stereotypical, but they're really, really good cartoonish, stereotypical versions of accents.
Well, they're cartoonish and stereotypical, but they're really, really good cartoonish, stereotypical versions of accents.
Yeah, she'd never been to England. She apparently probably had seen British people on TV kind of thing. But her case actually is the opposite of what I was saying. She was apparently quite shy before. And now she has something to talk about, a conversation opener, I guess. She's a little more chatty than before.
Yeah, she'd never been to England. She apparently probably had seen British people on TV kind of thing. But her case actually is the opposite of what I was saying. She was apparently quite shy before. And now she has something to talk about, a conversation opener, I guess. She's a little more chatty than before.
Yeah, she'd never been to England. She apparently probably had seen British people on TV kind of thing. But her case actually is the opposite of what I was saying. She was apparently quite shy before. And now she has something to talk about, a conversation opener, I guess. She's a little more chatty than before.
Yeah, it is. It's the opposite of some other people who have really experienced a crisis as a result. She's like, well, I sound British now. I guess I should talk more than before. So she sounds like a drunk Cockney chimney sweep. Pretty much. And she does sound Cockney to me.
Yeah, it is. It's the opposite of some other people who have really experienced a crisis as a result. She's like, well, I sound British now. I guess I should talk more than before. So she sounds like a drunk Cockney chimney sweep. Pretty much. And she does sound Cockney to me.
Yeah, it is. It's the opposite of some other people who have really experienced a crisis as a result. She's like, well, I sound British now. I guess I should talk more than before. So she sounds like a drunk Cockney chimney sweep. Pretty much. And she does sound Cockney to me.
So, yeah, we should say, you know, this is kind of like optical illusions. It's one thing to talk about it. You need to actually go see and hear these people talking. If you just look up Lisa Alamia, A-L-A-M-I-A, and you will find plenty of interviews with her. And she's, like you said, fairly recent.
So, yeah, we should say, you know, this is kind of like optical illusions. It's one thing to talk about it. You need to actually go see and hear these people talking. If you just look up Lisa Alamia, A-L-A-M-I-A, and you will find plenty of interviews with her. And she's, like you said, fairly recent.
So, yeah, we should say, you know, this is kind of like optical illusions. It's one thing to talk about it. You need to actually go see and hear these people talking. If you just look up Lisa Alamia, A-L-A-M-I-A, and you will find plenty of interviews with her. And she's, like you said, fairly recent.
There's one that's quite a famous case, maybe the most famous, because it was the one that put foreign accent syndrome on the map, even though it was before the term was coined.
There's one that's quite a famous case, maybe the most famous, because it was the one that put foreign accent syndrome on the map, even though it was before the term was coined.
There's one that's quite a famous case, maybe the most famous, because it was the one that put foreign accent syndrome on the map, even though it was before the term was coined.
Right.
Right.
Right.
No, because the Germans were occupying Norway at the time, right?
No, because the Germans were occupying Norway at the time, right?
No, because the Germans were occupying Norway at the time, right?
So people she didn't really know were like, oh, hey, German spy.
So people she didn't really know were like, oh, hey, German spy.
So people she didn't really know were like, oh, hey, German spy.
You want some milk? No milk for you.
You want some milk? No milk for you.
You want some milk? No milk for you.
It didn't, but as we'll see, he kind of nailed what the problem was. Yeah. Because, you know, the non-grammatical parts of speech, the porosity, are what is affected. When you have foreign accent syndrome, you have what appears to be a foreign accent, but you're... Usually, your vocabulary, your syntax, your grammar remains unchanged.
It didn't, but as we'll see, he kind of nailed what the problem was. Yeah. Because, you know, the non-grammatical parts of speech, the porosity, are what is affected. When you have foreign accent syndrome, you have what appears to be a foreign accent, but you're... Usually, your vocabulary, your syntax, your grammar remains unchanged.
It didn't, but as we'll see, he kind of nailed what the problem was. Yeah. Because, you know, the non-grammatical parts of speech, the porosity, are what is affected. When you have foreign accent syndrome, you have what appears to be a foreign accent, but you're... Usually, your vocabulary, your syntax, your grammar remains unchanged.
It's all the little nuances that make up your accent or your intonation or the rhythm of your speech that are affected and has changed. So, dysprosity is actually like the perfect name for the syndrome.
It's all the little nuances that make up your accent or your intonation or the rhythm of your speech that are affected and has changed. So, dysprosity is actually like the perfect name for the syndrome.
It's all the little nuances that make up your accent or your intonation or the rhythm of your speech that are affected and has changed. So, dysprosity is actually like the perfect name for the syndrome.
Right. And he was a neurolinguist who did some pretty serious research into foreign accent syndrome. He actually came up with a four-point criteria for diagnosing it. And the number one is that the accent has to be considered by the patient, the people the patient knows, and the researcher, the doctor, to sound like a foreign accent, right?
Right. And he was a neurolinguist who did some pretty serious research into foreign accent syndrome. He actually came up with a four-point criteria for diagnosing it. And the number one is that the accent has to be considered by the patient, the people the patient knows, and the researcher, the doctor, to sound like a foreign accent, right?
Right. And he was a neurolinguist who did some pretty serious research into foreign accent syndrome. He actually came up with a four-point criteria for diagnosing it. And the number one is that the accent has to be considered by the patient, the people the patient knows, and the researcher, the doctor, to sound like a foreign accent, right?
Yeah, well, that's number two. It has to be different from the patient's former porosity. Sure. Noticeably different. Number three, it has to be related to central nervous system damage. And this one has come under fire under the last few years. And then four, it can't be related to a patient's ability to speak a foreign language already, right? So there's actually a condition.
Yeah, well, that's number two. It has to be different from the patient's former porosity. Sure. Noticeably different. Number three, it has to be related to central nervous system damage. And this one has come under fire under the last few years. And then four, it can't be related to a patient's ability to speak a foreign language already, right? So there's actually a condition.
Yeah, well, that's number two. It has to be different from the patient's former porosity. Sure. Noticeably different. Number three, it has to be related to central nervous system damage. And this one has come under fire under the last few years. And then four, it can't be related to a patient's ability to speak a foreign language already, right? So there's actually a condition.
It's astounding to me. It's called bilingual aphasia, or there's also polyglot aphasia. And apparently, if you suffer a stroke or brain injury or some other trauma or insult to your central nervous system, and you know more than one language, you may completely lose the ability to speak one language and completely retain the ability to speak the other.
It's astounding to me. It's called bilingual aphasia, or there's also polyglot aphasia. And apparently, if you suffer a stroke or brain injury or some other trauma or insult to your central nervous system, and you know more than one language, you may completely lose the ability to speak one language and completely retain the ability to speak the other.
It's astounding to me. It's called bilingual aphasia, or there's also polyglot aphasia. And apparently, if you suffer a stroke or brain injury or some other trauma or insult to your central nervous system, and you know more than one language, you may completely lose the ability to speak one language and completely retain the ability to speak the other.
That's how decentralized our language process is in the brain.
That's how decentralized our language process is in the brain.
That's how decentralized our language process is in the brain.
Oh, right, right. Yeah, exactly. You're not slurring your speech. You just sound different, like a foreign person saying the same words would, right?
Oh, right, right. Yeah, exactly. You're not slurring your speech. You just sound different, like a foreign person saying the same words would, right?
Oh, right, right. Yeah, exactly. You're not slurring your speech. You just sound different, like a foreign person saying the same words would, right?
Oh, gotcha. Okay. So there's this four-point diagnosis criteria that's kind of been deconstructed over the years. But the problem with foreign accent syndrome, it's like you said, there's been 100, maybe 150 cases. So it's just totally up in the air as to like how to diagnose it, what qualifies as it. And we'll talk a little bit about how scientists have dug into it thus far after this break.
Oh, gotcha. Okay. So there's this four-point diagnosis criteria that's kind of been deconstructed over the years. But the problem with foreign accent syndrome, it's like you said, there's been 100, maybe 150 cases. So it's just totally up in the air as to like how to diagnose it, what qualifies as it. And we'll talk a little bit about how scientists have dug into it thus far after this break.
Oh, gotcha. Okay. So there's this four-point diagnosis criteria that's kind of been deconstructed over the years. But the problem with foreign accent syndrome, it's like you said, there's been 100, maybe 150 cases. So it's just totally up in the air as to like how to diagnose it, what qualifies as it. And we'll talk a little bit about how scientists have dug into it thus far after this break.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast, too. Thanks, Capital One bank guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank.
Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast, too. Thanks, Capital One bank guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank.
Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast, too. Thanks, Capital One bank guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank.
Capital One N.A. Member FDIC. Hey everybody, it's Chuck and Josh here to talk to you about Squarespace. Squarespace makes it easy to build the website of your dreams and do whatever you like with it.
Capital One N.A. Member FDIC. Hey everybody, it's Chuck and Josh here to talk to you about Squarespace. Squarespace makes it easy to build the website of your dreams and do whatever you like with it.
Capital One N.A. Member FDIC. Hey everybody, it's Chuck and Josh here to talk to you about Squarespace. Squarespace makes it easy to build the website of your dreams and do whatever you like with it.
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Yeah, and when it's time to collect that money, Squarespace offers an easier way to collect payments so you can focus on growing your business. You can invoice clients and get paid for your services, turn leads into clients with proposals, estimates, and contracts, and simplify your workflow and manage your service business on one platform. What else could you possibly ask for?
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That's right, Chuck. Andrew Moyes, VP of Fan Expo HQ, had this to say about Orlando. Often, we will bring our entire team to Orlando for the event, and that includes our executive-level team members as well, and we're able to give them a great experience with luxury hotels, special restaurants, all those key things to feed into the proper executive experience.
That's right, Chuck. Andrew Moyes, VP of Fan Expo HQ, had this to say about Orlando. Often, we will bring our entire team to Orlando for the event, and that includes our executive-level team members as well, and we're able to give them a great experience with luxury hotels, special restaurants, all those key things to feed into the proper executive experience.
That's right, Chuck. Andrew Moyes, VP of Fan Expo HQ, had this to say about Orlando. Often, we will bring our entire team to Orlando for the event, and that includes our executive-level team members as well, and we're able to give them a great experience with luxury hotels, special restaurants, all those key things to feed into the proper executive experience.
He also said that Orlando's easy airport access and close proximity to hotels and transportation make it a top choice for hosting major events.
He also said that Orlando's easy airport access and close proximity to hotels and transportation make it a top choice for hosting major events.
He also said that Orlando's easy airport access and close proximity to hotels and transportation make it a top choice for hosting major events.
So, Chuck, foreign accent syndrome, it's kind of all over the place right now, right? Yes. You've got Lisa Alamia who woke up from jaw surgery with it. Apparently, people who have strokes can suffer from foreign accent syndrome. And I actually saw one case where your foreign accent syndrome in one patient who suffered a stroke was cured by a second stroke elsewhere in the brain.
So, Chuck, foreign accent syndrome, it's kind of all over the place right now, right? Yes. You've got Lisa Alamia who woke up from jaw surgery with it. Apparently, people who have strokes can suffer from foreign accent syndrome. And I actually saw one case where your foreign accent syndrome in one patient who suffered a stroke was cured by a second stroke elsewhere in the brain.
So, Chuck, foreign accent syndrome, it's kind of all over the place right now, right? Yes. You've got Lisa Alamia who woke up from jaw surgery with it. Apparently, people who have strokes can suffer from foreign accent syndrome. And I actually saw one case where your foreign accent syndrome in one patient who suffered a stroke was cured by a second stroke elsewhere in the brain.
So we have, like, it's very tough to predict what's going to happen when foreign accent syndrome does come about. And, you know, there's been people from Japan who've developed Korean accents, or there have been people from Scotland who developed South African accents. It's kind of everywhere and all over.
So we have, like, it's very tough to predict what's going to happen when foreign accent syndrome does come about. And, you know, there's been people from Japan who've developed Korean accents, or there have been people from Scotland who developed South African accents. It's kind of everywhere and all over.
So we have, like, it's very tough to predict what's going to happen when foreign accent syndrome does come about. And, you know, there's been people from Japan who've developed Korean accents, or there have been people from Scotland who developed South African accents. It's kind of everywhere and all over.
Right. Because remember that Harry Whitaker 1982 criteria specifically says it has to be related to central nervous system damage.
Right. Because remember that Harry Whitaker 1982 criteria specifically says it has to be related to central nervous system damage.
Right. Because remember that Harry Whitaker 1982 criteria specifically says it has to be related to central nervous system damage.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Yeah, so they developed, first it was neurogenic, then they developed psychogenic, and then there's actually a third one now. It's mixed. So apparently it can actually be from a psychological issue that possibly could arise from, say, a brain lesion. So it's both of them together working to create this foreign accent syndrome.
Yeah, so they developed, first it was neurogenic, then they developed psychogenic, and then there's actually a third one now. It's mixed. So apparently it can actually be from a psychological issue that possibly could arise from, say, a brain lesion. So it's both of them together working to create this foreign accent syndrome.
Yeah, so they developed, first it was neurogenic, then they developed psychogenic, and then there's actually a third one now. It's mixed. So apparently it can actually be from a psychological issue that possibly could arise from, say, a brain lesion. So it's both of them together working to create this foreign accent syndrome.
And definitely the psychogenic version of foreign accent syndrome differs tremendously from the neurogenic version. in a lot of ways, and number one is the psychogenic tends to clear up. It accompanies, say, like a psychotic break or a manic episode or something like that, and as the episode wanes or goes away or clears up, so too does the foreign accent syndrome.
And definitely the psychogenic version of foreign accent syndrome differs tremendously from the neurogenic version. in a lot of ways, and number one is the psychogenic tends to clear up. It accompanies, say, like a psychotic break or a manic episode or something like that, and as the episode wanes or goes away or clears up, so too does the foreign accent syndrome.
And definitely the psychogenic version of foreign accent syndrome differs tremendously from the neurogenic version. in a lot of ways, and number one is the psychogenic tends to clear up. It accompanies, say, like a psychotic break or a manic episode or something like that, and as the episode wanes or goes away or clears up, so too does the foreign accent syndrome.
That is not the case with neurogenic. With neurogenic, they have no cure whatsoever, and basically the only treatment that they can come up with is through speech therapy, where a speech-language pathologist basically retrains you to talk the way you did before.
That is not the case with neurogenic. With neurogenic, they have no cure whatsoever, and basically the only treatment that they can come up with is through speech therapy, where a speech-language pathologist basically retrains you to talk the way you did before.
That is not the case with neurogenic. With neurogenic, they have no cure whatsoever, and basically the only treatment that they can come up with is through speech therapy, where a speech-language pathologist basically retrains you to talk the way you did before.
Right.
Right.
Right.
One of the more famous cases that kind of demonstrated that psychogenic FAS was an actual thing happened here in America. There's a woman in her mid-30s who had a history of schizophrenia in her family, and she was brought to the ER after attacking her mom's landlady.
One of the more famous cases that kind of demonstrated that psychogenic FAS was an actual thing happened here in America. There's a woman in her mid-30s who had a history of schizophrenia in her family, and she was brought to the ER after attacking her mom's landlady.
One of the more famous cases that kind of demonstrated that psychogenic FAS was an actual thing happened here in America. There's a woman in her mid-30s who had a history of schizophrenia in her family, and she was brought to the ER after attacking her mom's landlady.
And she believed the landlady was practicing voodoo on her against her. And she attacked the woman. And throughout all this, during this episode, she had taken on a British accent. And taking a family history, they found that, number one, she had schizophrenia in her family. She was diagnosed with schizophrenia as a result of this incident. But that she had had similar instances before.
And she believed the landlady was practicing voodoo on her against her. And she attacked the woman. And throughout all this, during this episode, she had taken on a British accent. And taking a family history, they found that, number one, she had schizophrenia in her family. She was diagnosed with schizophrenia as a result of this incident. But that she had had similar instances before.
And she believed the landlady was practicing voodoo on her against her. And she attacked the woman. And throughout all this, during this episode, she had taken on a British accent. And taking a family history, they found that, number one, she had schizophrenia in her family. She was diagnosed with schizophrenia as a result of this incident. But that she had had similar instances before.
And during these, she had spoken with a British accent. Yeah.
And during these, she had spoken with a British accent. Yeah.
And during these, she had spoken with a British accent. Yeah.
I don't believe so. That's not what I took from it.
I don't believe so. That's not what I took from it.
I don't believe so. That's not what I took from it.
Yeah. Well, I mean, remember, I think we've done one on schizophrenia before, haven't we? I don't know. Have we? We definitely did one on dissociative personality disorder. Yeah. Which is just absolutely fascinating. But I was like you. I kind of noticed like, hey, what about multiple personalities? It doesn't it seems like something that would be right up that alley.
Yeah. Well, I mean, remember, I think we've done one on schizophrenia before, haven't we? I don't know. Have we? We definitely did one on dissociative personality disorder. Yeah. Which is just absolutely fascinating. But I was like you. I kind of noticed like, hey, what about multiple personalities? It doesn't it seems like something that would be right up that alley.
Yeah. Well, I mean, remember, I think we've done one on schizophrenia before, haven't we? I don't know. Have we? We definitely did one on dissociative personality disorder. Yeah. Which is just absolutely fascinating. But I was like you. I kind of noticed like, hey, what about multiple personalities? It doesn't it seems like something that would be right up that alley.
I'm sure they've looked into that. But apparently that's not part of it.
I'm sure they've looked into that. But apparently that's not part of it.
I'm sure they've looked into that. But apparently that's not part of it.
Right, right. So she sounds like a native, I think Mandarin speaker is probably what we're thinking of, who is speaking English. And if you weren't looking, like you would expect to see, say, maybe like a middle-aged Chinese woman when you looked at the video. Yeah. And no, it's like, I don't know, late to mid-30s Caucasian woman. Yeah.
Right, right. So she sounds like a native, I think Mandarin speaker is probably what we're thinking of, who is speaking English. And if you weren't looking, like you would expect to see, say, maybe like a middle-aged Chinese woman when you looked at the video. Yeah. And no, it's like, I don't know, late to mid-30s Caucasian woman. Yeah.
Right, right. So she sounds like a native, I think Mandarin speaker is probably what we're thinking of, who is speaking English. And if you weren't looking, like you would expect to see, say, maybe like a middle-aged Chinese woman when you looked at the video. Yeah. And no, it's like, I don't know, late to mid-30s Caucasian woman. Yeah.
Native-born English speaker, and she's who I was thinking of when I was saying for some people it's a really big problem because it's presented a big crisis for her identity. She said that she can't look in the mirror while she's speaking any longer. She just doesn't feel like herself anymore, and it's really hit her hard.
Native-born English speaker, and she's who I was thinking of when I was saying for some people it's a really big problem because it's presented a big crisis for her identity. She said that she can't look in the mirror while she's speaking any longer. She just doesn't feel like herself anymore, and it's really hit her hard.
Native-born English speaker, and she's who I was thinking of when I was saying for some people it's a really big problem because it's presented a big crisis for her identity. She said that she can't look in the mirror while she's speaking any longer. She just doesn't feel like herself anymore, and it's really hit her hard.
Good Lord. From migraines.
Good Lord. From migraines.
Good Lord. From migraines.
It is. And from what I gather, she'd be like, yeah, well, imagine how strange it feels coming out of you.
It is. And from what I gather, she'd be like, yeah, well, imagine how strange it feels coming out of you.
It is. And from what I gather, she'd be like, yeah, well, imagine how strange it feels coming out of you.
Yeah, it is. I mean like it's bad enough You've got migraines and then to have a crisis of identity. Yeah, it's yeah, not fair. I
Yeah, it is. I mean like it's bad enough You've got migraines and then to have a crisis of identity. Yeah, it's yeah, not fair. I
Yeah, it is. I mean like it's bad enough You've got migraines and then to have a crisis of identity. Yeah, it's yeah, not fair. I
Right, because it can't do a lot for you. We don't know how to treat strokes very well. And once damage has occurred in the brain, it can be pretty tough, if not impossible, to reverse that damage, right, if it's permanently damaged. So, yeah, the idea that you've now gotten a foreign accent, they're probably like, that's kind of the least of your worries.
Right, because it can't do a lot for you. We don't know how to treat strokes very well. And once damage has occurred in the brain, it can be pretty tough, if not impossible, to reverse that damage, right, if it's permanently damaged. So, yeah, the idea that you've now gotten a foreign accent, they're probably like, that's kind of the least of your worries.
Right, because it can't do a lot for you. We don't know how to treat strokes very well. And once damage has occurred in the brain, it can be pretty tough, if not impossible, to reverse that damage, right, if it's permanently damaged. So, yeah, the idea that you've now gotten a foreign accent, they're probably like, that's kind of the least of your worries.
You just had a massive stroke or a huge head injury or something like that. But what it's revealed to them is not that there's this huge mystery. And we have kind of played into it a little bit by not revealing this from the outset. But you as a patient with foreign accent syndrome, you didn't hit your head and wake up with the foreign accent. It's all in the ear of the beholder.
You just had a massive stroke or a huge head injury or something like that. But what it's revealed to them is not that there's this huge mystery. And we have kind of played into it a little bit by not revealing this from the outset. But you as a patient with foreign accent syndrome, you didn't hit your head and wake up with the foreign accent. It's all in the ear of the beholder.
You just had a massive stroke or a huge head injury or something like that. But what it's revealed to them is not that there's this huge mystery. And we have kind of played into it a little bit by not revealing this from the outset. But you as a patient with foreign accent syndrome, you didn't hit your head and wake up with the foreign accent. It's all in the ear of the beholder.
The whole idea that there is a foreign accent syndrome as the way that it's stated is false, right? And we'll talk about that after this break. Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way.
The whole idea that there is a foreign accent syndrome as the way that it's stated is false, right? And we'll talk about that after this break. Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way.
The whole idea that there is a foreign accent syndrome as the way that it's stated is false, right? And we'll talk about that after this break. Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way.
He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast, too. Thanks, Capital One bank guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One N.A. Member FDIC.
He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast, too. Thanks, Capital One bank guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One N.A. Member FDIC.
He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast, too. Thanks, Capital One bank guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One N.A. Member FDIC.
Yes. Well, Amazon understands, which is why they created Amazon One Medical and Amazon Pharmacy. They're designed to remove these pain points from health care. With Amazon One Medical, you get 24-7 virtual care so you can see a provider within minutes and avoid those long, annoying waits.
Yes. Well, Amazon understands, which is why they created Amazon One Medical and Amazon Pharmacy. They're designed to remove these pain points from health care. With Amazon One Medical, you get 24-7 virtual care so you can see a provider within minutes and avoid those long, annoying waits.
Yes. Well, Amazon understands, which is why they created Amazon One Medical and Amazon Pharmacy. They're designed to remove these pain points from health care. With Amazon One Medical, you get 24-7 virtual care so you can see a provider within minutes and avoid those long, annoying waits.
Thanks to the ease and convenience of Amazon One Medical and Amazon Pharmacy, healthcare just got less painful.
Thanks to the ease and convenience of Amazon One Medical and Amazon Pharmacy, healthcare just got less painful.
Thanks to the ease and convenience of Amazon One Medical and Amazon Pharmacy, healthcare just got less painful.
Andrew Moyes, VP of Fan Expo HQ, had this to say about Orlando. Often, we will bring our entire team to Orlando for the event, and that includes our executive-level team members as well, and we're able to give them a great experience with luxury hotels, special restaurants, all those key things to feed into the proper executive experience.
Andrew Moyes, VP of Fan Expo HQ, had this to say about Orlando. Often, we will bring our entire team to Orlando for the event, and that includes our executive-level team members as well, and we're able to give them a great experience with luxury hotels, special restaurants, all those key things to feed into the proper executive experience.
Andrew Moyes, VP of Fan Expo HQ, had this to say about Orlando. Often, we will bring our entire team to Orlando for the event, and that includes our executive-level team members as well, and we're able to give them a great experience with luxury hotels, special restaurants, all those key things to feed into the proper executive experience.
He also said that Orlando's easy airport access and close proximity to hotels and transportation make it a top choice for hosting major events.
He also said that Orlando's easy airport access and close proximity to hotels and transportation make it a top choice for hosting major events.
He also said that Orlando's easy airport access and close proximity to hotels and transportation make it a top choice for hosting major events.
Well, it's officially too cold to do anything, Chuck. But the upside is that you can cocoon yourself in Bombas socks, slippers and underwear all winter long.
Well, it's officially too cold to do anything, Chuck. But the upside is that you can cocoon yourself in Bombas socks, slippers and underwear all winter long.
Well, it's officially too cold to do anything, Chuck. But the upside is that you can cocoon yourself in Bombas socks, slippers and underwear all winter long.
Yeah, and Bama's knows that the little things really do make a big difference. So they removed all the itchy tags, fixed the annoying toe seam, and perfected the fit of everything. No more socks that slip down or underwear that rides up. Just perfect comfort.
Yeah, and Bama's knows that the little things really do make a big difference. So they removed all the itchy tags, fixed the annoying toe seam, and perfected the fit of everything. No more socks that slip down or underwear that rides up. Just perfect comfort.
Yeah, and Bama's knows that the little things really do make a big difference. So they removed all the itchy tags, fixed the annoying toe seam, and perfected the fit of everything. No more socks that slip down or underwear that rides up. Just perfect comfort.
So try Bombas now. Head over to bombas.com slash S-Y-S-K and use code S-Y-S-K for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash S-Y-S-K. Code S-Y-S-K at checkout. Okay, Chuck, we're back.
So try Bombas now. Head over to bombas.com slash S-Y-S-K and use code S-Y-S-K for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash S-Y-S-K. Code S-Y-S-K at checkout. Okay, Chuck, we're back.
So try Bombas now. Head over to bombas.com slash S-Y-S-K and use code S-Y-S-K for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash S-Y-S-K. Code S-Y-S-K at checkout. Okay, Chuck, we're back.
So I thought I heard you drawing a breath right before we broke.
So I thought I heard you drawing a breath right before we broke.
So I thought I heard you drawing a breath right before we broke.
Did you have something to say?
Did you have something to say?
Did you have something to say?
So there have actually been studies where they've played a video clip of, or an audio clip of a person with foreign accent syndrome to different people. Yeah. And said, you know, where do you think this person's from? And the same person will get tens of different answers out of tens of different people.
So there have actually been studies where they've played a video clip of, or an audio clip of a person with foreign accent syndrome to different people. Yeah. And said, you know, where do you think this person's from? And the same person will get tens of different answers out of tens of different people.
So there have actually been studies where they've played a video clip of, or an audio clip of a person with foreign accent syndrome to different people. Yeah. And said, you know, where do you think this person's from? And the same person will get tens of different answers out of tens of different people.
Right. Well, no, no, no. She definitely doesn't sound British, but that's the point. She sounds Chinese, but she's not actually speaking in a Chinese accent. She didn't hit her head and wake up with a Chinese accent. What happened was she got these series of migraines, probably had some sort of stroke.
Right. Well, no, no, no. She definitely doesn't sound British, but that's the point. She sounds Chinese, but she's not actually speaking in a Chinese accent. She didn't hit her head and wake up with a Chinese accent. What happened was she got these series of migraines, probably had some sort of stroke.
Right. Well, no, no, no. She definitely doesn't sound British, but that's the point. She sounds Chinese, but she's not actually speaking in a Chinese accent. She didn't hit her head and wake up with a Chinese accent. What happened was she got these series of migraines, probably had some sort of stroke.
And a region of her brain that controls the really intricate process of prosody, of making your tongue do certain things to intonate and accent certain words in certain ways that make up your accent and your dialect overall, that got damaged. And so now she can't control it in the way she used to before. It comes out sounding differently.
And a region of her brain that controls the really intricate process of prosody, of making your tongue do certain things to intonate and accent certain words in certain ways that make up your accent and your dialect overall, that got damaged. And so now she can't control it in the way she used to before. It comes out sounding differently.
And a region of her brain that controls the really intricate process of prosody, of making your tongue do certain things to intonate and accent certain words in certain ways that make up your accent and your dialect overall, that got damaged. And so now she can't control it in the way she used to before. It comes out sounding differently.
And to you, somebody who has heard people speak in a Chinese accent before, it sounds like a Chinese accent.
And to you, somebody who has heard people speak in a Chinese accent before, it sounds like a Chinese accent.
And to you, somebody who has heard people speak in a Chinese accent before, it sounds like a Chinese accent.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Yeah, if you say ah instead of a, or you substitute consonants like R for L, right? So you're, you know, what's that? What were they singing? Jingle bells on... Oh, no, Deck the Halls on A Christmas Story. A Christmas Story. Fa-ra-ra-ra-ra, right? Yeah.
Yeah, if you say ah instead of a, or you substitute consonants like R for L, right? So you're, you know, what's that? What were they singing? Jingle bells on... Oh, no, Deck the Halls on A Christmas Story. A Christmas Story. Fa-ra-ra-ra-ra, right? Yeah.
Yeah, if you say ah instead of a, or you substitute consonants like R for L, right? So you're, you know, what's that? What were they singing? Jingle bells on... Oh, no, Deck the Halls on A Christmas Story. A Christmas Story. Fa-ra-ra-ra-ra, right? Yeah.
So if you were a Caucasian English speaker and you damaged your brain in a way that the part of your brain responsible for forming L's now formed R's instead. Right. To other English speakers who'd heard...
So if you were a Caucasian English speaker and you damaged your brain in a way that the part of your brain responsible for forming L's now formed R's instead. Right. To other English speakers who'd heard...
So if you were a Caucasian English speaker and you damaged your brain in a way that the part of your brain responsible for forming L's now formed R's instead. Right. To other English speakers who'd heard...
native Chinese speakers you would sound like you had a Chinese accent because that's what people who speak Chinese do when they're speaking English right so you didn't actually adopt a Chinese accent you just creating sounds in the same way that somebody who was a native Chinese speaker would yeah I mean I see what they're getting at with all this to me it's a little bit splitting hairs
native Chinese speakers you would sound like you had a Chinese accent because that's what people who speak Chinese do when they're speaking English right so you didn't actually adopt a Chinese accent you just creating sounds in the same way that somebody who was a native Chinese speaker would yeah I mean I see what they're getting at with all this to me it's a little bit splitting hairs
native Chinese speakers you would sound like you had a Chinese accent because that's what people who speak Chinese do when they're speaking English right so you didn't actually adopt a Chinese accent you just creating sounds in the same way that somebody who was a native Chinese speaker would yeah I mean I see what they're getting at with all this to me it's a little bit splitting hairs
think that's what i'm trying to say i think the difference is this chuck with your at your accent your native accent your native dialect is the result of your exposure to your environment right lifelong all the people around you all the stuff you've learned all the things you've heard it creates your dialect right when you suffer foreign accent syndrome
think that's what i'm trying to say i think the difference is this chuck with your at your accent your native accent your native dialect is the result of your exposure to your environment right lifelong all the people around you all the stuff you've learned all the things you've heard it creates your dialect right when you suffer foreign accent syndrome
think that's what i'm trying to say i think the difference is this chuck with your at your accent your native accent your native dialect is the result of your exposure to your environment right lifelong all the people around you all the stuff you've learned all the things you've heard it creates your dialect right when you suffer foreign accent syndrome
Your dialect your brain is damaged so that you can't produce that anymore, and you just kind of haphazardly producing something else Yeah, you don't actually follow so like if you took Sarah Cal call wills language and and had her read a passage from a book. And then you had a native Chinese speaker, typical accented Mandarin speaker, read that same passage. It would not be the exact same thing.
Your dialect your brain is damaged so that you can't produce that anymore, and you just kind of haphazardly producing something else Yeah, you don't actually follow so like if you took Sarah Cal call wills language and and had her read a passage from a book. And then you had a native Chinese speaker, typical accented Mandarin speaker, read that same passage. It would not be the exact same thing.
Your dialect your brain is damaged so that you can't produce that anymore, and you just kind of haphazardly producing something else Yeah, you don't actually follow so like if you took Sarah Cal call wills language and and had her read a passage from a book. And then you had a native Chinese speaker, typical accented Mandarin speaker, read that same passage. It would not be the exact same thing.
There'd be all sorts of derivations and deviations from that normal Mandarin accent because Sarah Caldwell's brain was damaged in a certain way that makes it a totally unique accent.
There'd be all sorts of derivations and deviations from that normal Mandarin accent because Sarah Caldwell's brain was damaged in a certain way that makes it a totally unique accent.
There'd be all sorts of derivations and deviations from that normal Mandarin accent because Sarah Caldwell's brain was damaged in a certain way that makes it a totally unique accent.
You're not letting this one go, are you?
You're not letting this one go, are you?
You're not letting this one go, are you?
Right.
Right.
Right.
I don't think so, no. I think it sounds off to them, and I think it's probably distressing because they're like, wait, let me say that again, and they still say it what they perceive as the wrong way. Because apparently one of the hallmarks of foreign accent syndrome is the errors or the differences that they make in their porosity is predictable.
I don't think so, no. I think it sounds off to them, and I think it's probably distressing because they're like, wait, let me say that again, and they still say it what they perceive as the wrong way. Because apparently one of the hallmarks of foreign accent syndrome is the errors or the differences that they make in their porosity is predictable.
I don't think so, no. I think it sounds off to them, and I think it's probably distressing because they're like, wait, let me say that again, and they still say it what they perceive as the wrong way. Because apparently one of the hallmarks of foreign accent syndrome is the errors or the differences that they make in their porosity is predictable.
Which makes it like an accent. I mean, that's what an accent is, is you're going to drop your T's or replace the T with the, T-H with a D. Right. Just about every time or add the R when you say wash. Wash? Yeah, exactly. Like that's, it's a predictable thing. And that's part of foreign accent syndrome. It starts to happen in predictable ways too. Yeah.
Which makes it like an accent. I mean, that's what an accent is, is you're going to drop your T's or replace the T with the, T-H with a D. Right. Just about every time or add the R when you say wash. Wash? Yeah, exactly. Like that's, it's a predictable thing. And that's part of foreign accent syndrome. It starts to happen in predictable ways too. Yeah.
Which makes it like an accent. I mean, that's what an accent is, is you're going to drop your T's or replace the T with the, T-H with a D. Right. Just about every time or add the R when you say wash. Wash? Yeah, exactly. Like that's, it's a predictable thing. And that's part of foreign accent syndrome. It starts to happen in predictable ways too. Yeah.
So I would guess, yeah, it sounds off to them as well.
So I would guess, yeah, it sounds off to them as well.
So I would guess, yeah, it sounds off to them as well.
Right. That's like the psychogenic version. I know. It's just so confusing. Well, it almost makes me think like, so before there was nothing but neurogenic foreign accent syndrome, right? Everything else was, you're just crazy. Now they recognize that there's psychogenic FAS as well.
Right. That's like the psychogenic version. I know. It's just so confusing. Well, it almost makes me think like, so before there was nothing but neurogenic foreign accent syndrome, right? Everything else was, you're just crazy. Now they recognize that there's psychogenic FAS as well.
Right. That's like the psychogenic version. I know. It's just so confusing. Well, it almost makes me think like, so before there was nothing but neurogenic foreign accent syndrome, right? Everything else was, you're just crazy. Now they recognize that there's psychogenic FAS as well.
I think what's going to happen with more and more study, they're going to just diverge into two totally different syndromes now.
I think what's going to happen with more and more study, they're going to just diverge into two totally different syndromes now.
I think what's going to happen with more and more study, they're going to just diverge into two totally different syndromes now.
You know, I think they're going to be like, that's actually not the same thing. That's something totally different. Neurogenic foreign accent syndrome is its own thing, and psychogenic is something else entirely as well.
You know, I think they're going to be like, that's actually not the same thing. That's something totally different. Neurogenic foreign accent syndrome is its own thing, and psychogenic is something else entirely as well.
You know, I think they're going to be like, that's actually not the same thing. That's something totally different. Neurogenic foreign accent syndrome is its own thing, and psychogenic is something else entirely as well.
Which one?
Which one?
Which one?
It would have to be psychogenic because neurogenic has basically that original Harry Whitaker criteria in 1982.
It would have to be psychogenic because neurogenic has basically that original Harry Whitaker criteria in 1982.
It would have to be psychogenic because neurogenic has basically that original Harry Whitaker criteria in 1982.
Well, it has to not be related to the patient's ability to speak a foreign language.
Well, it has to not be related to the patient's ability to speak a foreign language.
Well, it has to not be related to the patient's ability to speak a foreign language.
So, like, she would be technically canceled out from neurogenic for that one. And it would also, it didn't have anything to do with central nervous system damage.
So, like, she would be technically canceled out from neurogenic for that one. And it would also, it didn't have anything to do with central nervous system damage.
So, like, she would be technically canceled out from neurogenic for that one. And it would also, it didn't have anything to do with central nervous system damage.
Which is, again, that's why I think it's going to end up being its own thing.
Which is, again, that's why I think it's going to end up being its own thing.
Which is, again, that's why I think it's going to end up being its own thing.
It is.
It is.
It is.
That's all I've got, man. Isn't that enough? I think so. Man, any language stuff, anytime we talk about language in the brain, I guess neurolinguistics, I turn to goo. It's so interesting to me.
That's all I've got, man. Isn't that enough? I think so. Man, any language stuff, anytime we talk about language in the brain, I guess neurolinguistics, I turn to goo. It's so interesting to me.
That's all I've got, man. Isn't that enough? I think so. Man, any language stuff, anytime we talk about language in the brain, I guess neurolinguistics, I turn to goo. It's so interesting to me.
That's what happens when something interests me. I turn to goo. If you want to turn to goo and learn more about foreign accent syndrome, you can type those words in the search bar at HowStuffWorks.com. And since I said that, it's time for Chuck.
That's what happens when something interests me. I turn to goo. If you want to turn to goo and learn more about foreign accent syndrome, you can type those words in the search bar at HowStuffWorks.com. And since I said that, it's time for Chuck.
That's what happens when something interests me. I turn to goo. If you want to turn to goo and learn more about foreign accent syndrome, you can type those words in the search bar at HowStuffWorks.com. And since I said that, it's time for Chuck.
How was that? That was great, man. So, Chuck.
How was that? That was great, man. So, Chuck.
How was that? That was great, man. So, Chuck.
We've got some more people to thank for sending us some nice stuff.
We've got some more people to thank for sending us some nice stuff.
We've got some more people to thank for sending us some nice stuff.
Oh, that's good.
Oh, that's good.
Oh, that's good.
Very nice. I think you handled that foreign accent very well. Thank you. I want to say thanks big time to Robert Combs from Whitetail Coffee for the amazing coffees. Especially, like seriously, this is a really good coffee. Especially the Ladaris and La Morella. And that's Whitetail, T-A-L-E, coffee. It's just an amazing coffee subscription service that you should check out.
Very nice. I think you handled that foreign accent very well. Thank you. I want to say thanks big time to Robert Combs from Whitetail Coffee for the amazing coffees. Especially, like seriously, this is a really good coffee. Especially the Ladaris and La Morella. And that's Whitetail, T-A-L-E, coffee. It's just an amazing coffee subscription service that you should check out.
Very nice. I think you handled that foreign accent very well. Thank you. I want to say thanks big time to Robert Combs from Whitetail Coffee for the amazing coffees. Especially, like seriously, this is a really good coffee. Especially the Ladaris and La Morella. And that's Whitetail, T-A-L-E, coffee. It's just an amazing coffee subscription service that you should check out.
Can't wait to go grab them.
Can't wait to go grab them.
Can't wait to go grab them.
Nice.
Nice.
Nice.
Nice. Thanks a lot, guys.
Nice. Thanks a lot, guys.
Nice. Thanks a lot, guys.
That's a good place to be. But we're not going to have diabetes, my friend. No. Doug Fuchs sent us a beautiful illustrated card. Thanks for that, Doug. Thanks for saying hi.
That's a good place to be. But we're not going to have diabetes, my friend. No. Doug Fuchs sent us a beautiful illustrated card. Thanks for that, Doug. Thanks for saying hi.
That's a good place to be. But we're not going to have diabetes, my friend. No. Doug Fuchs sent us a beautiful illustrated card. Thanks for that, Doug. Thanks for saying hi.
Yeah, from everybody listening to you, Chuck, we send our condolences to you.
Yeah, from everybody listening to you, Chuck, we send our condolences to you.
Yeah, from everybody listening to you, Chuck, we send our condolences to you.
Yeah. Let's see. Preston Pope, he sent us some amazing chocolates, Chuck, from V Chocolates. V, just the letter V, chocolates.com. Seriously, it's good stuff. I feel bad. I feel like I'm running around on Little Bit Sweets. Oh.
Yeah. Let's see. Preston Pope, he sent us some amazing chocolates, Chuck, from V Chocolates. V, just the letter V, chocolates.com. Seriously, it's good stuff. I feel bad. I feel like I'm running around on Little Bit Sweets. Oh.
Yeah. Let's see. Preston Pope, he sent us some amazing chocolates, Chuck, from V Chocolates. V, just the letter V, chocolates.com. Seriously, it's good stuff. I feel bad. I feel like I'm running around on Little Bit Sweets. Oh.
Oh, it's so good.
Oh, it's so good.
Oh, it's so good.
Chuck, you may never go back to American Mayo again.
Chuck, you may never go back to American Mayo again.
Chuck, you may never go back to American Mayo again.
This afternoon?
This afternoon?
This afternoon?
It's subtle, but you'll notice. You'll say, wow, this is actually really, really good mayonnaise.
It's subtle, but you'll notice. You'll say, wow, this is actually really, really good mayonnaise.
It's subtle, but you'll notice. You'll say, wow, this is actually really, really good mayonnaise.
Thanks a lot to Tim and Joe from Primer Stories. I don't know if you remember, but our animal rights double parter tied into an essay I wrote on PrimerStories.com. And they sent T-shirts to say thanks for that. So thanks back for you guys' support.
Thanks a lot to Tim and Joe from Primer Stories. I don't know if you remember, but our animal rights double parter tied into an essay I wrote on PrimerStories.com. And they sent T-shirts to say thanks for that. So thanks back for you guys' support.
Thanks a lot to Tim and Joe from Primer Stories. I don't know if you remember, but our animal rights double parter tied into an essay I wrote on PrimerStories.com. And they sent T-shirts to say thanks for that. So thanks back for you guys' support.
Yes. Thanks a lot. Don Kent, who last gave us some Pliny the Elder before, which was nice, also sent us a bunch of Soylent. And thank you also to Soylent itself, the company, who heard our Soylent episode and said, you guys haven't tried Soylent? Here, here's some Soylent. And thank you for that, Soylent. That was very nice.
Yes. Thanks a lot. Don Kent, who last gave us some Pliny the Elder before, which was nice, also sent us a bunch of Soylent. And thank you also to Soylent itself, the company, who heard our Soylent episode and said, you guys haven't tried Soylent? Here, here's some Soylent. And thank you for that, Soylent. That was very nice.
Yes. Thanks a lot. Don Kent, who last gave us some Pliny the Elder before, which was nice, also sent us a bunch of Soylent. And thank you also to Soylent itself, the company, who heard our Soylent episode and said, you guys haven't tried Soylent? Here, here's some Soylent. And thank you for that, Soylent. That was very nice.
So is he like a trained optometrist who can like?
So is he like a trained optometrist who can like?
So is he like a trained optometrist who can like?
So he just gave you a piece of glass that's going to ruin your eye over time?
So he just gave you a piece of glass that's going to ruin your eye over time?
So he just gave you a piece of glass that's going to ruin your eye over time?
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, for sure.
I'm going to use it. Your new nickname is Pringles Guy. Okay. I've got someone else, Pringles Guy. Janelle Samara sent us a copy of her book, Our Only Hope. Thank you and congratulations on writing a book.
I'm going to use it. Your new nickname is Pringles Guy. Okay. I've got someone else, Pringles Guy. Janelle Samara sent us a copy of her book, Our Only Hope. Thank you and congratulations on writing a book.
I'm going to use it. Your new nickname is Pringles Guy. Okay. I've got someone else, Pringles Guy. Janelle Samara sent us a copy of her book, Our Only Hope. Thank you and congratulations on writing a book.
Francis de la Paz. So, you know, there's like a whole group of people out there who believe in writing letters, beautiful letters with fountain pens and all that. Yeah. And Francis de la Paz is one of them, sent us a beautiful handwritten letter. And you also apparently customarily send what's called a flat gift. And they sent a postcard, the sad life of sad clown, which is great.
Francis de la Paz. So, you know, there's like a whole group of people out there who believe in writing letters, beautiful letters with fountain pens and all that. Yeah. And Francis de la Paz is one of them, sent us a beautiful handwritten letter. And you also apparently customarily send what's called a flat gift. And they sent a postcard, the sad life of sad clown, which is great.
Francis de la Paz. So, you know, there's like a whole group of people out there who believe in writing letters, beautiful letters with fountain pens and all that. Yeah. And Francis de la Paz is one of them, sent us a beautiful handwritten letter. And you also apparently customarily send what's called a flat gift. And they sent a postcard, the sad life of sad clown, which is great.
I think sad clowns are great.
I think sad clowns are great.
I think sad clowns are great.
Oh, okay.
Oh, okay.
Oh, okay.
Right. We got some other ones, too, Chuck. We got a Lighthouse postcard from Big Sable Point from Teresa. We got a couple of Christmas cards from the Johnson-Alleman family and Tess Sullivan and her family. And I guess in part because of National, what is it, National Writing Month or Letter Writing Month? International Correspondence Writing Month. Exactly. Noel Verosa. No, sorry. Noel Versoza.
Right. We got some other ones, too, Chuck. We got a Lighthouse postcard from Big Sable Point from Teresa. We got a couple of Christmas cards from the Johnson-Alleman family and Tess Sullivan and her family. And I guess in part because of National, what is it, National Writing Month or Letter Writing Month? International Correspondence Writing Month. Exactly. Noel Verosa. No, sorry. Noel Versoza.
Right. We got some other ones, too, Chuck. We got a Lighthouse postcard from Big Sable Point from Teresa. We got a couple of Christmas cards from the Johnson-Alleman family and Tess Sullivan and her family. And I guess in part because of National, what is it, National Writing Month or Letter Writing Month? International Correspondence Writing Month. Exactly. Noel Verosa. No, sorry. Noel Versoza.
Right. Noel Verizosa.
Right. Noel Verizosa.
Right. Noel Verizosa.
I got it that last time. Noel Verizosa wrote us a nice handwritten letter in fountain pens.
I got it that last time. Noel Verizosa wrote us a nice handwritten letter in fountain pens.
I got it that last time. Noel Verizosa wrote us a nice handwritten letter in fountain pens.
banjo one for cello and it's got these cool pictures and then you can download these songs and kind of figure it's I mean it says for all ages but it seems like it'd be great to give a kid right so check that out it's very worthwhile I've got two more to finish them to one Austin Doyle sent me an amazing oil crayon painting which I assume will inflate in value very rapidly once Austin dies
banjo one for cello and it's got these cool pictures and then you can download these songs and kind of figure it's I mean it says for all ages but it seems like it'd be great to give a kid right so check that out it's very worthwhile I've got two more to finish them to one Austin Doyle sent me an amazing oil crayon painting which I assume will inflate in value very rapidly once Austin dies
banjo one for cello and it's got these cool pictures and then you can download these songs and kind of figure it's I mean it says for all ages but it seems like it'd be great to give a kid right so check that out it's very worthwhile I've got two more to finish them to one Austin Doyle sent me an amazing oil crayon painting which I assume will inflate in value very rapidly once Austin dies
Yeah, he's a great guy. I mean like when he dies of old age. I just plan to outlive him. Oh, okay. So I can cash in on the painting he made me. And then Ben and Aaron Gibson sent us the Japanese car magnets that signify an elderly driver or a teen driver, which we've talked about before. Oh, yeah, yeah. I remember those. Thanks, dudes.
Yeah, he's a great guy. I mean like when he dies of old age. I just plan to outlive him. Oh, okay. So I can cash in on the painting he made me. And then Ben and Aaron Gibson sent us the Japanese car magnets that signify an elderly driver or a teen driver, which we've talked about before. Oh, yeah, yeah. I remember those. Thanks, dudes.
Yeah, he's a great guy. I mean like when he dies of old age. I just plan to outlive him. Oh, okay. So I can cash in on the painting he made me. And then Ben and Aaron Gibson sent us the Japanese car magnets that signify an elderly driver or a teen driver, which we've talked about before. Oh, yeah, yeah. I remember those. Thanks, dudes.
Nice.
Nice.
Nice.
I got a lot of stuff to carry out of here.
I got a lot of stuff to carry out of here.
I got a lot of stuff to carry out of here.
Or a radio flyer. Ooh, I got one of those for my kid.
Or a radio flyer. Ooh, I got one of those for my kid.
Or a radio flyer. Ooh, I got one of those for my kid.
Oh, yeah? Yeah, the old red wagon. Like the real one? The radio flyer? Yeah, they still make them. Nice. Well, thank you again to everybody who sent us so much great stuff. We appreciate it big time. And if you want to get in touch with us, you can send us both an email to stuffpodcasts at howstuffworks.com. And as always, join us at our home on the web, stuffyoushouldknow.com.
Oh, yeah? Yeah, the old red wagon. Like the real one? The radio flyer? Yeah, they still make them. Nice. Well, thank you again to everybody who sent us so much great stuff. We appreciate it big time. And if you want to get in touch with us, you can send us both an email to stuffpodcasts at howstuffworks.com. And as always, join us at our home on the web, stuffyoushouldknow.com.
Oh, yeah? Yeah, the old red wagon. Like the real one? The radio flyer? Yeah, they still make them. Nice. Well, thank you again to everybody who sent us so much great stuff. We appreciate it big time. And if you want to get in touch with us, you can send us both an email to stuffpodcasts at howstuffworks.com. And as always, join us at our home on the web, stuffyoushouldknow.com.
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Well, it's officially too cold to do anything, Chuck. But the upside is that you can cocoon yourself in Bombas socks, slippers and underwear all winter long.
Well, it's officially too cold to do anything, Chuck. But the upside is that you can cocoon yourself in Bombas socks, slippers and underwear all winter long.
Well, it's officially too cold to do anything, Chuck. But the upside is that you can cocoon yourself in Bombas socks, slippers and underwear all winter long.
Yeah, and Bama's knows that the little things really do make a big difference. So they removed all the itchy tags, fixed the annoying toe seam, and perfected the fit of everything. No more socks that slip down or underwear that rides up. Just perfect comfort.
Yeah, and Bama's knows that the little things really do make a big difference. So they removed all the itchy tags, fixed the annoying toe seam, and perfected the fit of everything. No more socks that slip down or underwear that rides up. Just perfect comfort.
Yeah, and Bama's knows that the little things really do make a big difference. So they removed all the itchy tags, fixed the annoying toe seam, and perfected the fit of everything. No more socks that slip down or underwear that rides up. Just perfect comfort.
So try Bombas now. Head over to bombas.com slash S-Y-S-K and use code S-Y-S-K for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash S-Y-S-K. Code S-Y-S-K at checkout.
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Hello, friends. It's Josh. And for this week's Select, I've chosen our September 2020 episode on Frances Perkins. If you haven't heard of her, that's okay. She's one of the most unsung Americans ever and was even left out of the history books for a while, all because she was a woman. Check out this episode where Frances Perkins gets her due.
Hello, friends. It's Josh. And for this week's Select, I've chosen our September 2020 episode on Frances Perkins. If you haven't heard of her, that's okay. She's one of the most unsung Americans ever and was even left out of the history books for a while, all because she was a woman. Check out this episode where Frances Perkins gets her due.
Hello, friends. It's Josh. And for this week's Select, I've chosen our September 2020 episode on Frances Perkins. If you haven't heard of her, that's okay. She's one of the most unsung Americans ever and was even left out of the history books for a while, all because she was a woman. Check out this episode where Frances Perkins gets her due.
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. And this is Stuff You Should Know, the amazing unsung woman edition, volume two at least. No, more than two. What number would you say then?
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. And this is Stuff You Should Know, the amazing unsung woman edition, volume two at least. No, more than two. What number would you say then?
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. And this is Stuff You Should Know, the amazing unsung woman edition, volume two at least. No, more than two. What number would you say then?
I know. I'm not a big fan anyway.
I know. I'm not a big fan anyway.
I know. I'm not a big fan anyway.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Totally agree. Had never heard her name before. Had never even known she existed. But, yeah, the more you dig into her, the more you're just like, it was almost a crime that this woman was virtually written out of the history books.
Totally agree. Had never heard her name before. Had never even known she existed. But, yeah, the more you dig into her, the more you're just like, it was almost a crime that this woman was virtually written out of the history books.
Totally agree. Had never heard her name before. Had never even known she existed. But, yeah, the more you dig into her, the more you're just like, it was almost a crime that this woman was virtually written out of the history books.
That's right. And every single person who's getting a check as measly as they've gotten lately is getting one because of this system that Frances Perkins set up. And what's really, I think, worth noting, too, is this is exactly the kind of situation that she got this passed for, that she helped design this for. Totally. Totally.
That's right. And every single person who's getting a check as measly as they've gotten lately is getting one because of this system that Frances Perkins set up. And what's really, I think, worth noting, too, is this is exactly the kind of situation that she got this passed for, that she helped design this for. Totally. Totally.
That's right. And every single person who's getting a check as measly as they've gotten lately is getting one because of this system that Frances Perkins set up. And what's really, I think, worth noting, too, is this is exactly the kind of situation that she got this passed for, that she helped design this for. Totally. Totally.
Because there's a quote, I can't remember exactly what a quote was, but to paraphrase it, it's basically like we need to always keep our eye on the long term and plan for the worst case scenario. While, yes, there's a lot of immediate needs that we need, but there's always going to be something that comes down the road. And if we have planned for it, we're way better off.
Because there's a quote, I can't remember exactly what a quote was, but to paraphrase it, it's basically like we need to always keep our eye on the long term and plan for the worst case scenario. While, yes, there's a lot of immediate needs that we need, but there's always going to be something that comes down the road. And if we have planned for it, we're way better off.
Because there's a quote, I can't remember exactly what a quote was, but to paraphrase it, it's basically like we need to always keep our eye on the long term and plan for the worst case scenario. While, yes, there's a lot of immediate needs that we need, but there's always going to be something that comes down the road. And if we have planned for it, we're way better off.
Just imagine how disastrous it would be on top of the current disaster if there wasn't such a thing as unemployment insurance. And this is how we found out that we really kind of need it.
Just imagine how disastrous it would be on top of the current disaster if there wasn't such a thing as unemployment insurance. And this is how we found out that we really kind of need it.
Just imagine how disastrous it would be on top of the current disaster if there wasn't such a thing as unemployment insurance. And this is how we found out that we really kind of need it.
Yeah. So if you have gotten your unemployment insurance check and it has helped you, thank Francis Perkins somehow.
Yeah. So if you have gotten your unemployment insurance check and it has helped you, thank Francis Perkins somehow.
Yeah. So if you have gotten your unemployment insurance check and it has helped you, thank Francis Perkins somehow.
After she turned that essay in, you bet your bippy she did.
After she turned that essay in, you bet your bippy she did.
After she turned that essay in, you bet your bippy she did.
Right. They're like, oh, we don't need to help her put on airs. Well, then just like, you know, I don't ask, I don't tell, I just don't, whatever.
Right. They're like, oh, we don't need to help her put on airs. Well, then just like, you know, I don't ask, I don't tell, I just don't, whatever.
Right. They're like, oh, we don't need to help her put on airs. Well, then just like, you know, I don't ask, I don't tell, I just don't, whatever.
I want to say also before the residents of Newcastle bust a vein in their forehead, she's also cited as a native of Newcastle, Maine. Oh, okay. And they're right across the Damariscotta River from one another. I think she's from Newcastle.
I want to say also before the residents of Newcastle bust a vein in their forehead, she's also cited as a native of Newcastle, Maine. Oh, okay. And they're right across the Damariscotta River from one another. I think she's from Newcastle.
I want to say also before the residents of Newcastle bust a vein in their forehead, she's also cited as a native of Newcastle, Maine. Oh, okay. And they're right across the Damariscotta River from one another. I think she's from Newcastle.
Maybe. Maybe, except imagine if neither town knew what shoes were. I think that would be a pretty accurate analogy. Oh, boy. I love the Mainers. So she came from really dyed-in-the-wool Yankee stock. Her family came over, I think, in the 1680s. Her family had built an outpost during the French-Indian War.
Maybe. Maybe, except imagine if neither town knew what shoes were. I think that would be a pretty accurate analogy. Oh, boy. I love the Mainers. So she came from really dyed-in-the-wool Yankee stock. Her family came over, I think, in the 1680s. Her family had built an outpost during the French-Indian War.
Maybe. Maybe, except imagine if neither town knew what shoes were. I think that would be a pretty accurate analogy. Oh, boy. I love the Mainers. So she came from really dyed-in-the-wool Yankee stock. Her family came over, I think, in the 1680s. Her family had built an outpost during the French-Indian War.
Her grandmother, who had more of an influence on her, she said, than anybody, had a cousin who she was close to who founded Howard University and fought for the rights of newly freed African-Americans. She came from like a long line of people who like cared about other people. Yeah. And yet, surprisingly, her parents were very conservative.
Her grandmother, who had more of an influence on her, she said, than anybody, had a cousin who she was close to who founded Howard University and fought for the rights of newly freed African-Americans. She came from like a long line of people who like cared about other people. Yeah. And yet, surprisingly, her parents were very conservative.
Her grandmother, who had more of an influence on her, she said, than anybody, had a cousin who she was close to who founded Howard University and fought for the rights of newly freed African-Americans. She came from like a long line of people who like cared about other people. Yeah. And yet, surprisingly, her parents were very conservative.
They were in favor of, you know, helping the poor, but not mingling with them helping them. Like, helping them by, like, you know, sending some money or something like that. Okay. And they produced a child, Fanny Francis. She changed her name, I think, in, I don't know, her 20s or 30s. She was the opposite way. She was like, no, like...
They were in favor of, you know, helping the poor, but not mingling with them helping them. Like, helping them by, like, you know, sending some money or something like that. Okay. And they produced a child, Fanny Francis. She changed her name, I think, in, I don't know, her 20s or 30s. She was the opposite way. She was like, no, like...
They were in favor of, you know, helping the poor, but not mingling with them helping them. Like, helping them by, like, you know, sending some money or something like that. Okay. And they produced a child, Fanny Francis. She changed her name, I think, in, I don't know, her 20s or 30s. She was the opposite way. She was like, no, like...
People are people, and they all deserve help, and there's a lot of injustice in this world, and I want to change it myself. And she's one of those people who actually did enact tremendous change for all the right reasons.
People are people, and they all deserve help, and there's a lot of injustice in this world, and I want to change it myself. And she's one of those people who actually did enact tremendous change for all the right reasons.
People are people, and they all deserve help, and there's a lot of injustice in this world, and I want to change it myself. And she's one of those people who actually did enact tremendous change for all the right reasons.
She said people are people, so why should it be? You and I should get along so awfully.
She said people are people, so why should it be? You and I should get along so awfully.
She said people are people, so why should it be? You and I should get along so awfully.
I gotcha.
I gotcha.
I gotcha.
Depeche Mode was before New Order, huh? Yes. I mean, technically, if you count New Order as an outcropping of Joy Division, then they were first. Oh, so, well, Joy Division was different, though. It was pretty different. Different enough that they might as well be two different bands.
Depeche Mode was before New Order, huh? Yes. I mean, technically, if you count New Order as an outcropping of Joy Division, then they were first. Oh, so, well, Joy Division was different, though. It was pretty different. Different enough that they might as well be two different bands.
Depeche Mode was before New Order, huh? Yes. I mean, technically, if you count New Order as an outcropping of Joy Division, then they were first. Oh, so, well, Joy Division was different, though. It was pretty different. Different enough that they might as well be two different bands.
You know who we need to give us the judgment call? Who? Is Frances Perkins, who apparently would not have enjoyed our banter. She was very much known as like a dour, serious woman. But from what I can tell, that's actually a public persona that she wore to get men to take her seriously. Yeah.
You know who we need to give us the judgment call? Who? Is Frances Perkins, who apparently would not have enjoyed our banter. She was very much known as like a dour, serious woman. But from what I can tell, that's actually a public persona that she wore to get men to take her seriously. Yeah.
You know who we need to give us the judgment call? Who? Is Frances Perkins, who apparently would not have enjoyed our banter. She was very much known as like a dour, serious woman. But from what I can tell, that's actually a public persona that she wore to get men to take her seriously. Yeah.
And apparently she had made it all the way through college. And in her senior year, I think she attended an economics lecture by Florence Kelly, who was a huge wage justice crusader. And that just changed her life.
And apparently she had made it all the way through college. And in her senior year, I think she attended an economics lecture by Florence Kelly, who was a huge wage justice crusader. And that just changed her life.
And apparently she had made it all the way through college. And in her senior year, I think she attended an economics lecture by Florence Kelly, who was a huge wage justice crusader. And that just changed her life.
What did she do there?
What did she do there?
What did she do there?
And we should say like she's getting all of this schooling, but at the same time, she's also set herself off on a what's that like learn while you work program called? Internship. Internship. I guess so. That's not exactly what I'm looking for. But yeah, I mean, it makes sense. So she set herself up on a real world internship program.
And we should say like she's getting all of this schooling, but at the same time, she's also set herself off on a what's that like learn while you work program called? Internship. Internship. I guess so. That's not exactly what I'm looking for. But yeah, I mean, it makes sense. So she set herself up on a real world internship program.
And we should say like she's getting all of this schooling, but at the same time, she's also set herself off on a what's that like learn while you work program called? Internship. Internship. I guess so. That's not exactly what I'm looking for. But yeah, I mean, it makes sense. So she set herself up on a real world internship program.
So while she was in Philly working for that bureau, she was investigating those fake employment rackets. Like she was on the ground doing this stuff, like carrying out these inspections, investigating factories, like taking notes. In her early 20s. Yeah, basically, yeah.
So while she was in Philly working for that bureau, she was investigating those fake employment rackets. Like she was on the ground doing this stuff, like carrying out these inspections, investigating factories, like taking notes. In her early 20s. Yeah, basically, yeah.
So while she was in Philly working for that bureau, she was investigating those fake employment rackets. Like she was on the ground doing this stuff, like carrying out these inspections, investigating factories, like taking notes. In her early 20s. Yeah, basically, yeah.
While she's studying this stuff, she's also out doing and seeing the stuff firsthand that she's learning about, which, from what I can tell, she really kind of digested and held on to, and it just kept driving her for the rest of her life what she saw. I think that's called the School of Hard Knocks.
While she's studying this stuff, she's also out doing and seeing the stuff firsthand that she's learning about, which, from what I can tell, she really kind of digested and held on to, and it just kept driving her for the rest of her life what she saw. I think that's called the School of Hard Knocks.
While she's studying this stuff, she's also out doing and seeing the stuff firsthand that she's learning about, which, from what I can tell, she really kind of digested and held on to, and it just kept driving her for the rest of her life what she saw. I think that's called the School of Hard Knocks.
It is, but she enrolled in the Wharton School and the School of Hard Knocks at the same time, which is pretty impressive.
It is, but she enrolled in the Wharton School and the School of Hard Knocks at the same time, which is pretty impressive.
It is, but she enrolled in the Wharton School and the School of Hard Knocks at the same time, which is pretty impressive.
But there's—she did—this is one of the things she did. There's very few more depressing words than these strung together. She improved working conditions for children.
But there's—she did—this is one of the things she did. There's very few more depressing words than these strung together. She improved working conditions for children.
But there's—she did—this is one of the things she did. There's very few more depressing words than these strung together. She improved working conditions for children.
That was one of the things she did. I know. And that was at the Consumers League of New York. And she got there and was like, yes, I've achieved one of my first goals, which is working directly with the same Florence Kelly who gave the economics lecture that changed her life years before Mount Holyoke. That's right. Yeah.
That was one of the things she did. I know. And that was at the Consumers League of New York. And she got there and was like, yes, I've achieved one of my first goals, which is working directly with the same Florence Kelly who gave the economics lecture that changed her life years before Mount Holyoke. That's right. Yeah.
That was one of the things she did. I know. And that was at the Consumers League of New York. And she got there and was like, yes, I've achieved one of my first goals, which is working directly with the same Florence Kelly who gave the economics lecture that changed her life years before Mount Holyoke. That's right. Yeah.
So she was one of those ones who said, I want to do this and then would do it and then would move on to the next thing.
So she was one of those ones who said, I want to do this and then would do it and then would move on to the next thing.
So she was one of those ones who said, I want to do this and then would do it and then would move on to the next thing.
Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
I think it's an NYU building now.
I think it's an NYU building now.
I think it's an NYU building now.
Let's see. 727. Wait, I can't do math out loud.
Let's see. 727. Wait, I can't do math out loud.
Let's see. 727. Wait, I can't do math out loud.
No, no. It was way more than that. 12 times 7 equals 84. Yeah, that's what I said. 84 hours a week. But like even that doesn't sound that big. 12-hour days, seven days a week just to keep your job.
No, no. It was way more than that. 12 times 7 equals 84. Yeah, that's what I said. 84 hours a week. But like even that doesn't sound that big. 12-hour days, seven days a week just to keep your job.
No, no. It was way more than that. 12 times 7 equals 84. Yeah, that's what I said. 84 hours a week. But like even that doesn't sound that big. 12-hour days, seven days a week just to keep your job.
Which was not good even back then.
Which was not good even back then.
Which was not good even back then.
Right, in front of Frances Perkins. She didn't jump to her death. No, no, no. So she's literally witnessing one of the turning points in history. As it happens, seeing women, teenage girls jump out of the ninth floor of this building because it's on fire. And not only is she witnessing a fire that will change history, she is one of the people that will force history to change because of this fire.
Right, in front of Frances Perkins. She didn't jump to her death. No, no, no. So she's literally witnessing one of the turning points in history. As it happens, seeing women, teenage girls jump out of the ninth floor of this building because it's on fire. And not only is she witnessing a fire that will change history, she is one of the people that will force history to change because of this fire.
Right, in front of Frances Perkins. She didn't jump to her death. No, no, no. So she's literally witnessing one of the turning points in history. As it happens, seeing women, teenage girls jump out of the ninth floor of this building because it's on fire. And not only is she witnessing a fire that will change history, she is one of the people that will force history to change because of this fire.
The... the fate or the destiny that put her a block away from this fire when it happened is... It's just astounding to me that she was there because she went on to be one of the people who said, this is never going to happen again. And under her watch... It basically didn't. It was the worst that it ever got.
The... the fate or the destiny that put her a block away from this fire when it happened is... It's just astounding to me that she was there because she went on to be one of the people who said, this is never going to happen again. And under her watch... It basically didn't. It was the worst that it ever got.
The... the fate or the destiny that put her a block away from this fire when it happened is... It's just astounding to me that she was there because she went on to be one of the people who said, this is never going to happen again. And under her watch... It basically didn't. It was the worst that it ever got.
And it never got that bad again because of the safeguards she forced the state and then later on other states and the federal government to adopt.
And it never got that bad again because of the safeguards she forced the state and then later on other states and the federal government to adopt.
And it never got that bad again because of the safeguards she forced the state and then later on other states and the federal government to adopt.
Yeah, we need to do an entire episode on that. At the very least, just to shame the two owners who were just totally responsible for all those deaths.
Yeah, we need to do an entire episode on that. At the very least, just to shame the two owners who were just totally responsible for all those deaths.
Yeah, we need to do an entire episode on that. At the very least, just to shame the two owners who were just totally responsible for all those deaths.
Yeah, it was. But at the same time, those guys were particularly nasty examples of the system. They weren't average by any means from what I understand. Yeah.
Yeah, it was. But at the same time, those guys were particularly nasty examples of the system. They weren't average by any means from what I understand. Yeah.
Yeah, it was. But at the same time, those guys were particularly nasty examples of the system. They weren't average by any means from what I understand. Yeah.
She did. She was appointed to the New York Committee on Safety under the recommendation of Teddy Roosevelt, which says a lot because that means she'd already made a name for herself in her 20s in New York City politics to the point where Teddy Roosevelt would say, like, you really kind of need this woman on there.
She did. She was appointed to the New York Committee on Safety under the recommendation of Teddy Roosevelt, which says a lot because that means she'd already made a name for herself in her 20s in New York City politics to the point where Teddy Roosevelt would say, like, you really kind of need this woman on there.
She did. She was appointed to the New York Committee on Safety under the recommendation of Teddy Roosevelt, which says a lot because that means she'd already made a name for herself in her 20s in New York City politics to the point where Teddy Roosevelt would say, like, you really kind of need this woman on there.
And then let's not forget the fact that the operative word here was woman as far as society was concerned at the time. And this legislation that she got passed through in New York or that she helped get passed through in New York, like I was saying, it became a model for other states and then eventually the federal fire codes. Right. because of this, largely because of her efforts.
And then let's not forget the fact that the operative word here was woman as far as society was concerned at the time. And this legislation that she got passed through in New York or that she helped get passed through in New York, like I was saying, it became a model for other states and then eventually the federal fire codes. Right. because of this, largely because of her efforts.
And then let's not forget the fact that the operative word here was woman as far as society was concerned at the time. And this legislation that she got passed through in New York or that she helped get passed through in New York, like I was saying, it became a model for other states and then eventually the federal fire codes. Right. because of this, largely because of her efforts.
And she made a name for herself. She'd already made a name for herself, but this really kind of helped cement her name. And she started working closely with a guy named Alfred E. Smith, who was an assemblyman from New York. But she won his respect pretty easily. I think they worked on this New York Committee on Safety together. And so when he became governor, she kind of rose along with him.
And she made a name for herself. She'd already made a name for herself, but this really kind of helped cement her name. And she started working closely with a guy named Alfred E. Smith, who was an assemblyman from New York. But she won his respect pretty easily. I think they worked on this New York Committee on Safety together. And so when he became governor, she kind of rose along with him.
And she made a name for herself. She'd already made a name for herself, but this really kind of helped cement her name. And she started working closely with a guy named Alfred E. Smith, who was an assemblyman from New York. But she won his respect pretty easily. I think they worked on this New York Committee on Safety together. And so when he became governor, she kind of rose along with him.
She was appointed by him to New York State's Industrial Commission, which made her the first woman to be appointed to a state government position in the country. And with her $8,000 salary, she was the highest paid woman to hold any office in the United States at the time. So she became important pretty quick. But she became important, everybody. This is really important to remember.
She was appointed by him to New York State's Industrial Commission, which made her the first woman to be appointed to a state government position in the country. And with her $8,000 salary, she was the highest paid woman to hold any office in the United States at the time. So she became important pretty quick. But she became important, everybody. This is really important to remember.
She was appointed by him to New York State's Industrial Commission, which made her the first woman to be appointed to a state government position in the country. And with her $8,000 salary, she was the highest paid woman to hold any office in the United States at the time. So she became important pretty quick. But she became important, everybody. This is really important to remember.
By hard work and heart, which is just a wonderful combination. Like amazing things happen from people who have that combination.
By hard work and heart, which is just a wonderful combination. Like amazing things happen from people who have that combination.
By hard work and heart, which is just a wonderful combination. Like amazing things happen from people who have that combination.
And not just works harder. She was known as a policy expert about worker safety and wage justice by this time, too.
And not just works harder. She was known as a policy expert about worker safety and wage justice by this time, too.
And not just works harder. She was known as a policy expert about worker safety and wage justice by this time, too.
No, we're not kidding at all, Chuck.
No, we're not kidding at all, Chuck.
No, we're not kidding at all, Chuck.
So like you were saying, she first kind of rose to prominence with Alfred E. Smith, who, from what I could tell, I didn't get to research him very much. But the stuff that I ran across the references to him, he seemed like a genuine, like, true believer, crusader in justice, social justice as well. So they were like a good pair. And he made it as far as New York governor.
So like you were saying, she first kind of rose to prominence with Alfred E. Smith, who, from what I could tell, I didn't get to research him very much. But the stuff that I ran across the references to him, he seemed like a genuine, like, true believer, crusader in justice, social justice as well. So they were like a good pair. And he made it as far as New York governor.
So like you were saying, she first kind of rose to prominence with Alfred E. Smith, who, from what I could tell, I didn't get to research him very much. But the stuff that I ran across the references to him, he seemed like a genuine, like, true believer, crusader in justice, social justice as well. So they were like a good pair. And he made it as far as New York governor.
He ran for president and didn't win. And when he didn't win, he, I guess, lost the governorship and was succeeded by Franklin Delano Roosevelt. And so Roosevelt came into power in New York as the governor of New York. And Francis Perkins was already there and had already built up a reputation. And Roosevelt recognized... the kind of person she was pretty quickly.
He ran for president and didn't win. And when he didn't win, he, I guess, lost the governorship and was succeeded by Franklin Delano Roosevelt. And so Roosevelt came into power in New York as the governor of New York. And Francis Perkins was already there and had already built up a reputation. And Roosevelt recognized... the kind of person she was pretty quickly.
He ran for president and didn't win. And when he didn't win, he, I guess, lost the governorship and was succeeded by Franklin Delano Roosevelt. And so Roosevelt came into power in New York as the governor of New York. And Francis Perkins was already there and had already built up a reputation. And Roosevelt recognized... the kind of person she was pretty quickly.
Because a lot of people are, you know, you can give a lot of credit or a lot of vilification to Roosevelt for his New Deal policies, depending on your political stripes. But if you, you know, if you admire him for it, as I think most people should, he... It wasn't just him.
Because a lot of people are, you know, you can give a lot of credit or a lot of vilification to Roosevelt for his New Deal policies, depending on your political stripes. But if you, you know, if you admire him for it, as I think most people should, he... It wasn't just him.
Because a lot of people are, you know, you can give a lot of credit or a lot of vilification to Roosevelt for his New Deal policies, depending on your political stripes. But if you, you know, if you admire him for it, as I think most people should, he... It wasn't just him.
One of his great talents was to recognize talent in others and to bring those people together and then enact policies based on their expertise and their recommendations. And one of those people was Francis Perkins, starting when he was governor of New York and then also when he became president, too.
One of his great talents was to recognize talent in others and to bring those people together and then enact policies based on their expertise and their recommendations. And one of those people was Francis Perkins, starting when he was governor of New York and then also when he became president, too.
One of his great talents was to recognize talent in others and to bring those people together and then enact policies based on their expertise and their recommendations. And one of those people was Francis Perkins, starting when he was governor of New York and then also when he became president, too.
They really did. I mean, like she was the first cabinet, first woman to serve as a cabinet member. I mean, women had just gotten the right to vote about 13, 12 or 13 years before.
They really did. I mean, like she was the first cabinet, first woman to serve as a cabinet member. I mean, women had just gotten the right to vote about 13, 12 or 13 years before.
They really did. I mean, like she was the first cabinet, first woman to serve as a cabinet member. I mean, women had just gotten the right to vote about 13, 12 or 13 years before.
I know. Isn't that crazy? And yet she held public appointed offices and still couldn't vote.
I know. Isn't that crazy? And yet she held public appointed offices and still couldn't vote.
I know. Isn't that crazy? And yet she held public appointed offices and still couldn't vote.
Right, exactly, yeah. So it was a really big deal that FDR appointed a woman to a cabinet position, and an important cabinet position, too. I mean, like, it's not like there's any necessarily unimportant cabinet positions, but Secretary of Labor is pretty big. Yeah, especially then. Yeah, especially then, right?
Right, exactly, yeah. So it was a really big deal that FDR appointed a woman to a cabinet position, and an important cabinet position, too. I mean, like, it's not like there's any necessarily unimportant cabinet positions, but Secretary of Labor is pretty big. Yeah, especially then. Yeah, especially then, right?
Right, exactly, yeah. So it was a really big deal that FDR appointed a woman to a cabinet position, and an important cabinet position, too. I mean, like, it's not like there's any necessarily unimportant cabinet positions, but Secretary of Labor is pretty big. Yeah, especially then. Yeah, especially then, right?
And especially, you know, at a time when this emerging superpower took a huge punch in the face and got knocked on its butt like the rest of the world by the Great Depression. This was important stuff that they were trying to figure out on the fly. But he chose a really great person who wasn't really accepted at first, not just by the public, but by virtually anybody.
And especially, you know, at a time when this emerging superpower took a huge punch in the face and got knocked on its butt like the rest of the world by the Great Depression. This was important stuff that they were trying to figure out on the fly. But he chose a really great person who wasn't really accepted at first, not just by the public, but by virtually anybody.
And especially, you know, at a time when this emerging superpower took a huge punch in the face and got knocked on its butt like the rest of the world by the Great Depression. This was important stuff that they were trying to figure out on the fly. But he chose a really great person who wasn't really accepted at first, not just by the public, but by virtually anybody.
The labor unions weren't happy she was there because she had a background in social work and policy, not labor.
The labor unions weren't happy she was there because she had a background in social work and policy, not labor.
The labor unions weren't happy she was there because she had a background in social work and policy, not labor.
Yes, but she eventually won them over just by virtue of what she did. Like the labor movement was on the ropes at the time. The progressive era ran from... I think 1890 to about 1920. So by the time 1929, 1930 comes around, it's dying off the labor movement. But under her leadership as the Department of Labor secretary, she revived it.
Yes, but she eventually won them over just by virtue of what she did. Like the labor movement was on the ropes at the time. The progressive era ran from... I think 1890 to about 1920. So by the time 1929, 1930 comes around, it's dying off the labor movement. But under her leadership as the Department of Labor secretary, she revived it.
Yes, but she eventually won them over just by virtue of what she did. Like the labor movement was on the ropes at the time. The progressive era ran from... I think 1890 to about 1920. So by the time 1929, 1930 comes around, it's dying off the labor movement. But under her leadership as the Department of Labor secretary, she revived it.
And by the time she either died or left office, I can't remember, I think a third of all Americans were members of unions, right?
And by the time she either died or left office, I can't remember, I think a third of all Americans were members of unions, right?
And by the time she either died or left office, I can't remember, I think a third of all Americans were members of unions, right?
It did, and it also helped reinforce and build out America's infrastructure too because they had all this labor that the government was putting to work doing it, right?
It did, and it also helped reinforce and build out America's infrastructure too because they had all this labor that the government was putting to work doing it, right?
It did, and it also helped reinforce and build out America's infrastructure too because they had all this labor that the government was putting to work doing it, right?
So she was in charge of overseeing that. And one of the other, I guess the next big thing, I think it was before Social Security, was something called the Wagner Act.
So she was in charge of overseeing that. And one of the other, I guess the next big thing, I think it was before Social Security, was something called the Wagner Act.
So she was in charge of overseeing that. And one of the other, I guess the next big thing, I think it was before Social Security, was something called the Wagner Act.
The Wagner-Wagner Act, depending on your persuasion. It gave workers the right to unionize and the right to collectively bargain. And one of her roles was to go out and promote this stuff, not just to, you know, other members of the government or members of industry, but to individual Americans, too.
The Wagner-Wagner Act, depending on your persuasion. It gave workers the right to unionize and the right to collectively bargain. And one of her roles was to go out and promote this stuff, not just to, you know, other members of the government or members of industry, but to individual Americans, too.
The Wagner-Wagner Act, depending on your persuasion. It gave workers the right to unionize and the right to collectively bargain. And one of her roles was to go out and promote this stuff, not just to, you know, other members of the government or members of industry, but to individual Americans, too.
So in 1933 alone, she gave 100 different policy speeches in just that one year on New Deal projects, promoting them. And one of the speeches she gave, I don't know if it was in that year or not, but she went to Homestead, Pennsylvania, right across the river from Pittsburgh, where Carnegie Steel was headquartered.
So in 1933 alone, she gave 100 different policy speeches in just that one year on New Deal projects, promoting them. And one of the speeches she gave, I don't know if it was in that year or not, but she went to Homestead, Pennsylvania, right across the river from Pittsburgh, where Carnegie Steel was headquartered.
So in 1933 alone, she gave 100 different policy speeches in just that one year on New Deal projects, promoting them. And one of the speeches she gave, I don't know if it was in that year or not, but she went to Homestead, Pennsylvania, right across the river from Pittsburgh, where Carnegie Steel was headquartered.
And she was going to inform these workers about their newly won rights through the Wagner Act. And Carnegie Steel and the local government would not give her any place to hold this meeting. They wouldn't give the secretary of labor a place to talk to voters. So she, and there's apparently a famous picture of her leading all of these steel workers on foot to a post office.
And she was going to inform these workers about their newly won rights through the Wagner Act. And Carnegie Steel and the local government would not give her any place to hold this meeting. They wouldn't give the secretary of labor a place to talk to voters. So she, and there's apparently a famous picture of her leading all of these steel workers on foot to a post office.
And she was going to inform these workers about their newly won rights through the Wagner Act. And Carnegie Steel and the local government would not give her any place to hold this meeting. They wouldn't give the secretary of labor a place to talk to voters. So she, and there's apparently a famous picture of her leading all of these steel workers on foot to a post office.
She's like, oh, I can think of a place where I can assemble legally, and that is the post office. So she gave her speech on the grounds of the Homestead Post Office to thousands of steel workers, informing them that they could legally unionize and bargain collectively for workers' rights.
She's like, oh, I can think of a place where I can assemble legally, and that is the post office. So she gave her speech on the grounds of the Homestead Post Office to thousands of steel workers, informing them that they could legally unionize and bargain collectively for workers' rights.
She's like, oh, I can think of a place where I can assemble legally, and that is the post office. So she gave her speech on the grounds of the Homestead Post Office to thousands of steel workers, informing them that they could legally unionize and bargain collectively for workers' rights.
Yeah, mostly the second one.
Yeah, mostly the second one.
Yeah, mostly the second one.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Okay, Chuck, so we were saying at the outset that if you got an unemployment check, thank Frances Perkins. Or if you ever get an unemployment check, if you even like the idea of the fact that an unemployment insurance policy is out there for you in case you ever need it, thank Frances Perkins.
Okay, Chuck, so we were saying at the outset that if you got an unemployment check, thank Frances Perkins. Or if you ever get an unemployment check, if you even like the idea of the fact that an unemployment insurance policy is out there for you in case you ever need it, thank Frances Perkins.
Okay, Chuck, so we were saying at the outset that if you got an unemployment check, thank Frances Perkins. Or if you ever get an unemployment check, if you even like the idea of the fact that an unemployment insurance policy is out there for you in case you ever need it, thank Frances Perkins.
And the reason you thank Frances Perkins is because she basically oversaw the creation of the legislation that became the Social Security Act of 1935. And when I say oversaw the creation of that legislation, like she, that was it. She was the head of this cabinet level committee that was assigned the task of coming up with a social insurance policy, a social safety net for the country.
And the reason you thank Frances Perkins is because she basically oversaw the creation of the legislation that became the Social Security Act of 1935. And when I say oversaw the creation of that legislation, like she, that was it. She was the head of this cabinet level committee that was assigned the task of coming up with a social insurance policy, a social safety net for the country.
And the reason you thank Frances Perkins is because she basically oversaw the creation of the legislation that became the Social Security Act of 1935. And when I say oversaw the creation of that legislation, like she, that was it. She was the head of this cabinet level committee that was assigned the task of coming up with a social insurance policy, a social safety net for the country.
And they came up with this within six months successfully. this full policy report. And within two days of delivering the report, FDR turned around and unveiled the Social Security program idea to Congress. And another six months or so later, maybe eight, it passed into law.
And they came up with this within six months successfully. this full policy report. And within two days of delivering the report, FDR turned around and unveiled the Social Security program idea to Congress. And another six months or so later, maybe eight, it passed into law.
And they came up with this within six months successfully. this full policy report. And within two days of delivering the report, FDR turned around and unveiled the Social Security program idea to Congress. And another six months or so later, maybe eight, it passed into law.
I agree. I think we have, man. I'm almost positive. Yeah, it really rings a bell.
I agree. I think we have, man. I'm almost positive. Yeah, it really rings a bell.
I agree. I think we have, man. I'm almost positive. Yeah, it really rings a bell.
Who is it? Tommy Chong?
Who is it? Tommy Chong?
Who is it? Tommy Chong?
Yeah. While we're reading these emails, while we're having to sweep up the studio. Yeah.
Yeah. While we're reading these emails, while we're having to sweep up the studio. Yeah.
Yeah. While we're reading these emails, while we're having to sweep up the studio. Yeah.
And I feel like it really shows in the podcast.
And I feel like it really shows in the podcast.
And I feel like it really shows in the podcast.
Self-deprecation, Chuck. That's our specialty. That's right. That's right.
Self-deprecation, Chuck. That's our specialty. That's right. That's right.
Self-deprecation, Chuck. That's our specialty. That's right. That's right.
Right. That's the brilliance of the whole thing is it's a transfer payment system to where you are directly funding the people who have retired now. But it's on the premise that people behind you are going to fund into this to support you later on. Right. It's beautiful. It's a genius idea.
Right. That's the brilliance of the whole thing is it's a transfer payment system to where you are directly funding the people who have retired now. But it's on the premise that people behind you are going to fund into this to support you later on. Right. It's beautiful. It's a genius idea.
Right. That's the brilliance of the whole thing is it's a transfer payment system to where you are directly funding the people who have retired now. But it's on the premise that people behind you are going to fund into this to support you later on. Right. It's beautiful. It's a genius idea.
And apparently FDR sent her, Frances Perkins, to study the British system of unemployment insurance even before he was president, back when he was governor of New York. And he became the first public official to commit to developing an unemployment insurance plan. And it was at the persistent behest of Frances Perkins that he did that.
And apparently FDR sent her, Frances Perkins, to study the British system of unemployment insurance even before he was president, back when he was governor of New York. And he became the first public official to commit to developing an unemployment insurance plan. And it was at the persistent behest of Frances Perkins that he did that.
And apparently FDR sent her, Frances Perkins, to study the British system of unemployment insurance even before he was president, back when he was governor of New York. And he became the first public official to commit to developing an unemployment insurance plan. And it was at the persistent behest of Frances Perkins that he did that.
Well, yeah, that's the thing. A lot of people say, like, if it weren't for her, no joke, this stuff probably wouldn't exist. Certainly not in the form that it does now. And that's not necessarily fair. There are, like, there were programs that had, like, Social Security-type programs among the states, including unemployment programs, but they were ad hoc. They were patchwork.
Well, yeah, that's the thing. A lot of people say, like, if it weren't for her, no joke, this stuff probably wouldn't exist. Certainly not in the form that it does now. And that's not necessarily fair. There are, like, there were programs that had, like, Social Security-type programs among the states, including unemployment programs, but they were ad hoc. They were patchwork.
Well, yeah, that's the thing. A lot of people say, like, if it weren't for her, no joke, this stuff probably wouldn't exist. Certainly not in the form that it does now. And that's not necessarily fair. There are, like, there were programs that had, like, Social Security-type programs among the states, including unemployment programs, but they were ad hoc. They were patchwork.
Most states didn't have them. And it's kind of the... the beauty of the federal program is they're basically like, okay, states do this, but we're going to oversee it and organize it and help fund it.
Most states didn't have them. And it's kind of the... the beauty of the federal program is they're basically like, okay, states do this, but we're going to oversee it and organize it and help fund it.
Most states didn't have them. And it's kind of the... the beauty of the federal program is they're basically like, okay, states do this, but we're going to oversee it and organize it and help fund it.
Yes, and that was like her whole thing. Like we do need to make sure that people get peanut butter sandwiches because their families are going to starve. Like, yes, these immediate needs have to be met, but we also simultaneously have to plan for the future too. It was just this persistent drum that she beat. Like we're going to continue to have problems. Let's plan for them now.
Yes, and that was like her whole thing. Like we do need to make sure that people get peanut butter sandwiches because their families are going to starve. Like, yes, these immediate needs have to be met, but we also simultaneously have to plan for the future too. It was just this persistent drum that she beat. Like we're going to continue to have problems. Let's plan for them now.
Yes, and that was like her whole thing. Like we do need to make sure that people get peanut butter sandwiches because their families are going to starve. Like, yes, these immediate needs have to be met, but we also simultaneously have to plan for the future too. It was just this persistent drum that she beat. Like we're going to continue to have problems. Let's plan for them now.
Like the level of visionariness – In this person was, you just don't see that. I can't think of too many other people who've come and gone in the federal government, in the United States at least, that had that level of, I guess, awareness of looking down the line that far rather than just, you know, four years out or to the next election. Yeah.
Like the level of visionariness – In this person was, you just don't see that. I can't think of too many other people who've come and gone in the federal government, in the United States at least, that had that level of, I guess, awareness of looking down the line that far rather than just, you know, four years out or to the next election. Yeah.
Like the level of visionariness – In this person was, you just don't see that. I can't think of too many other people who've come and gone in the federal government, in the United States at least, that had that level of, I guess, awareness of looking down the line that far rather than just, you know, four years out or to the next election. Yeah.
And you can make the case, Chuck, that she is the woman who gave America's kids the concept of a childhood.
And you can make the case, Chuck, that she is the woman who gave America's kids the concept of a childhood.
And you can make the case, Chuck, that she is the woman who gave America's kids the concept of a childhood.
At the very least, she extended it by many, many years.
At the very least, she extended it by many, many years.
At the very least, she extended it by many, many years.
I've got another amazing fact about her. She, I believe, is the first cabinet member who Congress ever sought to impeach. Oh, really? Yes. I'm almost positive that's correct. I know that they did try to impeach her and they failed in the impeachment, not just the conviction. They couldn't get enough support for articles of impeachment.
I've got another amazing fact about her. She, I believe, is the first cabinet member who Congress ever sought to impeach. Oh, really? Yes. I'm almost positive that's correct. I know that they did try to impeach her and they failed in the impeachment, not just the conviction. They couldn't get enough support for articles of impeachment.
I've got another amazing fact about her. She, I believe, is the first cabinet member who Congress ever sought to impeach. Oh, really? Yes. I'm almost positive that's correct. I know that they did try to impeach her and they failed in the impeachment, not just the conviction. They couldn't get enough support for articles of impeachment.
But it was because she refused to deport an Australian longshoreman who'd successfully organized a general strike in San Francisco. And the anti-communist elements in Congress suspected that this guy was a communist and wanted him out. And she said, you know, I don't think very highly of this guy. I don't really agree with a lot of what he stands for.
But it was because she refused to deport an Australian longshoreman who'd successfully organized a general strike in San Francisco. And the anti-communist elements in Congress suspected that this guy was a communist and wanted him out. And she said, you know, I don't think very highly of this guy. I don't really agree with a lot of what he stands for.
But it was because she refused to deport an Australian longshoreman who'd successfully organized a general strike in San Francisco. And the anti-communist elements in Congress suspected that this guy was a communist and wanted him out. And she said, you know, I don't think very highly of this guy. I don't really agree with a lot of what he stands for.
But I don't think that you have really good evidence. And I think this is all retaliation for the strike you organized. So I'm not going to deport him. And you might say, well, what did this lady have to do with deporting? Apparently, back in the day, the immigration system the power of immigration or control of immigration was up to the Department of Labor.
But I don't think that you have really good evidence. And I think this is all retaliation for the strike you organized. So I'm not going to deport him. And you might say, well, what did this lady have to do with deporting? Apparently, back in the day, the immigration system the power of immigration or control of immigration was up to the Department of Labor.
But I don't think that you have really good evidence. And I think this is all retaliation for the strike you organized. So I'm not going to deport him. And you might say, well, what did this lady have to do with deporting? Apparently, back in the day, the immigration system the power of immigration or control of immigration was up to the Department of Labor.
So the Secretary of Labor was also in charge of immigration, which really kind of gives you an idea of where America's immigration policies, you know, where their mind was at.
So the Secretary of Labor was also in charge of immigration, which really kind of gives you an idea of where America's immigration policies, you know, where their mind was at.
So the Secretary of Labor was also in charge of immigration, which really kind of gives you an idea of where America's immigration policies, you know, where their mind was at.
That it was about importing, you know, good workers or also controlling who came in to keep competition for jobs down.
That it was about importing, you know, good workers or also controlling who came in to keep competition for jobs down.
That it was about importing, you know, good workers or also controlling who came in to keep competition for jobs down.
So she was in charge of immigration, which, as we'll see later on, she used to great effect.
So she was in charge of immigration, which, as we'll see later on, she used to great effect.
So she was in charge of immigration, which, as we'll see later on, she used to great effect.
Yeah, I think so. Okay. That's a good idea. It's the kid with the last question in Q&A.
Yeah, I think so. Okay. That's a good idea. It's the kid with the last question in Q&A.
Yeah, I think so. Okay. That's a good idea. It's the kid with the last question in Q&A.
Yeah, which is kind of a bummer. Some people might say it's a bummer. Some people might say good. Sure. She also played drums for Dokken for a brief time. For a little bit. She did it all. And all while wearing a frumpy tricornered hat. Yeah.
Yeah, which is kind of a bummer. Some people might say it's a bummer. Some people might say good. Sure. She also played drums for Dokken for a brief time. For a little bit. She did it all. And all while wearing a frumpy tricornered hat. Yeah.
Yeah, which is kind of a bummer. Some people might say it's a bummer. Some people might say good. Sure. She also played drums for Dokken for a brief time. For a little bit. She did it all. And all while wearing a frumpy tricornered hat. Yeah.
Yes, there are a couple of other things to throw in too. Both her husband and her daughter suffered from what we today call bipolar disorder. She cared for them their entire lives. That little thing. Yeah, right.
Yes, there are a couple of other things to throw in too. Both her husband and her daughter suffered from what we today call bipolar disorder. She cared for them their entire lives. That little thing. Yeah, right.
Yes, there are a couple of other things to throw in too. Both her husband and her daughter suffered from what we today call bipolar disorder. She cared for them their entire lives. That little thing. Yeah, right.
No, while she's doing all this other stuff, she made sure that they were cared for, took care of them directly herself. And one of the other things I think is worth mentioning, too, that before FDR became president, while she was working in New York, she was already known publicly as,
No, while she's doing all this other stuff, she made sure that they were cared for, took care of them directly herself. And one of the other things I think is worth mentioning, too, that before FDR became president, while she was working in New York, she was already known publicly as,
No, while she's doing all this other stuff, she made sure that they were cared for, took care of them directly herself. And one of the other things I think is worth mentioning, too, that before FDR became president, while she was working in New York, she was already known publicly as,
before she became secretary of labor, because she was the first, uh, public official to call Hoover out on his BS when he was downplaying, uh, joblessness numbers and unemployment figures. Um, and just general terrible economic news and pretending things were way better than they were, she was the first person to step up and publicly contradict him and made national news for that. Wow.
before she became secretary of labor, because she was the first, uh, public official to call Hoover out on his BS when he was downplaying, uh, joblessness numbers and unemployment figures. Um, and just general terrible economic news and pretending things were way better than they were, she was the first person to step up and publicly contradict him and made national news for that. Wow.
before she became secretary of labor, because she was the first, uh, public official to call Hoover out on his BS when he was downplaying, uh, joblessness numbers and unemployment figures. Um, and just general terrible economic news and pretending things were way better than they were, she was the first person to step up and publicly contradict him and made national news for that. Wow.
And, you know, again, this is a woman doing this in, like, 1930, so just that alone makes national news, but she was also calling him out on his BS. And one thing that we have to say before you finish with the cherry on top, Chuck, is she had guys figure it out. She had a folder called, called Notes on the Male Mind.
And, you know, again, this is a woman doing this in, like, 1930, so just that alone makes national news, but she was also calling him out on his BS. And one thing that we have to say before you finish with the cherry on top, Chuck, is she had guys figure it out. She had a folder called, called Notes on the Male Mind.
And, you know, again, this is a woman doing this in, like, 1930, so just that alone makes national news, but she was also calling him out on his BS. And one thing that we have to say before you finish with the cherry on top, Chuck, is she had guys figure it out. She had a folder called, called Notes on the Male Mind.
And she would just take notes on guys and men that she worked with and just kind of try to get an understanding of them. And she realized that the way to get male colleagues to treat you normally or maybe even respect you is to remind them of their mother. Wow. That's what it takes apparently to get a guy to treat a woman with respect at work.
And she would just take notes on guys and men that she worked with and just kind of try to get an understanding of them. And she realized that the way to get male colleagues to treat you normally or maybe even respect you is to remind them of their mother. Wow. That's what it takes apparently to get a guy to treat a woman with respect at work.
And she would just take notes on guys and men that she worked with and just kind of try to get an understanding of them. And she realized that the way to get male colleagues to treat you normally or maybe even respect you is to remind them of their mother. Wow. That's what it takes apparently to get a guy to treat a woman with respect at work.
It almost seems malicious in a weird way. Like, I like to think that that's not the case, but what other explanation is there?
It almost seems malicious in a weird way. Like, I like to think that that's not the case, but what other explanation is there?
It almost seems malicious in a weird way. Like, I like to think that that's not the case, but what other explanation is there?
It's weird.
It's weird.
It's weird.
Yes, she made sure that about at least 55,000 Jewish German immigrants made their way into the United States through these Department of Labor immigration quotas. And another, I think, 200,000 people in general were rescued from Europe as World War II was starting to develop over there because of her.
Yes, she made sure that about at least 55,000 Jewish German immigrants made their way into the United States through these Department of Labor immigration quotas. And another, I think, 200,000 people in general were rescued from Europe as World War II was starting to develop over there because of her.
Yes, she made sure that about at least 55,000 Jewish German immigrants made their way into the United States through these Department of Labor immigration quotas. And another, I think, 200,000 people in general were rescued from Europe as World War II was starting to develop over there because of her.
Just on top of everything else, she also saved a bunch of tens of thousands of Jewish people from Hitler in World War II. Amazing. Amazing Chuck. I guess that's it for Frances Perkins, huh? That's it. Well, if you want to know more about Frances Perkins, go start reading about her because there's even more detail to her life than we captured here. And she's worth reading about.
Just on top of everything else, she also saved a bunch of tens of thousands of Jewish people from Hitler in World War II. Amazing. Amazing Chuck. I guess that's it for Frances Perkins, huh? That's it. Well, if you want to know more about Frances Perkins, go start reading about her because there's even more detail to her life than we captured here. And she's worth reading about.
Just on top of everything else, she also saved a bunch of tens of thousands of Jewish people from Hitler in World War II. Amazing. Amazing Chuck. I guess that's it for Frances Perkins, huh? That's it. Well, if you want to know more about Frances Perkins, go start reading about her because there's even more detail to her life than we captured here. And she's worth reading about.
Very admirable person. And since I said admirable, it's time for Listener Mail.
Very admirable person. And since I said admirable, it's time for Listener Mail.
Very admirable person. And since I said admirable, it's time for Listener Mail.
Nice.
Nice.
Nice.
Well, yeah. Okay. If she wasn't talking about Tommy Chong, I'll tell you that.
Well, yeah. Okay. If she wasn't talking about Tommy Chong, I'll tell you that.
Well, yeah. Okay. If she wasn't talking about Tommy Chong, I'll tell you that.
Oh, that's cool.
Oh, that's cool.
Oh, that's cool.
Go to them, and they will help you.
Go to them, and they will help you.
Go to them, and they will help you.
It's kind of like if you're afraid of flying, watch the flight attendants, and as long as they're not freaking out, you're fine. It's the exact same thing. He's saying when the S goes down, there's people helping, so that's always good. God bless Mr. Rogers and you, Tony. Oh, man, man. Yep, thanks a lot.
It's kind of like if you're afraid of flying, watch the flight attendants, and as long as they're not freaking out, you're fine. It's the exact same thing. He's saying when the S goes down, there's people helping, so that's always good. God bless Mr. Rogers and you, Tony. Oh, man, man. Yep, thanks a lot.
It's kind of like if you're afraid of flying, watch the flight attendants, and as long as they're not freaking out, you're fine. It's the exact same thing. He's saying when the S goes down, there's people helping, so that's always good. God bless Mr. Rogers and you, Tony. Oh, man, man. Yep, thanks a lot.
I couldn't tell if you were just putting a little mustard on the Tony. No, like Tawny Katane. Sure, yeah, from the Whitesnake videos. That cultural icon. Well, thanks a lot, Tawny. I apologize for Chuck calling you Tawny Katane. Okay. Can I apologize for you, Charles? Sure. Okay. Well, I'm going to do that. If you want to get me to apologize for Charles, let's see if you can do it.
I couldn't tell if you were just putting a little mustard on the Tony. No, like Tawny Katane. Sure, yeah, from the Whitesnake videos. That cultural icon. Well, thanks a lot, Tawny. I apologize for Chuck calling you Tawny Katane. Okay. Can I apologize for you, Charles? Sure. Okay. Well, I'm going to do that. If you want to get me to apologize for Charles, let's see if you can do it.
I couldn't tell if you were just putting a little mustard on the Tony. No, like Tawny Katane. Sure, yeah, from the Whitesnake videos. That cultural icon. Well, thanks a lot, Tawny. I apologize for Chuck calling you Tawny Katane. Okay. Can I apologize for you, Charles? Sure. Okay. Well, I'm going to do that. If you want to get me to apologize for Charles, let's see if you can do it.
You can send us an email. Wrap it up, spank it on the bottom, and send it off to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.
You can send us an email. Wrap it up, spank it on the bottom, and send it off to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.
You can send us an email. Wrap it up, spank it on the bottom, and send it off to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.
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Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and Jerry's here, too. We're just rolling the dice and moving the pies. I call them pies, too. Yeah, because, I mean, it was like a pie piece. Yeah, I can't think of anything else you would call them. I think some people call them wedges, but they're clearly sickos.
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and Jerry's here, too. We're just rolling the dice and moving the pies. I call them pies, too. Yeah, because, I mean, it was like a pie piece. Yeah, I can't think of anything else you would call them. I think some people call them wedges, but they're clearly sickos.
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and Jerry's here, too. We're just rolling the dice and moving the pies. I call them pies, too. Yeah, because, I mean, it was like a pie piece. Yeah, I can't think of anything else you would call them. I think some people call them wedges, but they're clearly sickos.
Well, I've seen the guys who invented the game, so.
Well, I've seen the guys who invented the game, so.
Well, I've seen the guys who invented the game, so.
Yeah. Oh, boy. We should probably tell everybody what we're talking about. First, this is stuff you should know. Second, we're talking about Trivial Pursuit, arguably one of the greatest board games ever created. And we're not just saying that because stuff you should know has its own Trivial Pursuit edition. It's because it legitimately is such a great game.
Yeah. Oh, boy. We should probably tell everybody what we're talking about. First, this is stuff you should know. Second, we're talking about Trivial Pursuit, arguably one of the greatest board games ever created. And we're not just saying that because stuff you should know has its own Trivial Pursuit edition. It's because it legitimately is such a great game.
Yeah. Oh, boy. We should probably tell everybody what we're talking about. First, this is stuff you should know. Second, we're talking about Trivial Pursuit, arguably one of the greatest board games ever created. And we're not just saying that because stuff you should know has its own Trivial Pursuit edition. It's because it legitimately is such a great game.
I'll bet. Yeah, looking at the board and pictures of the board and some of the question cards and all that. Like I was just overwhelmed with nostalgia because it was a huge thing in my family to playing Trivial Pursuit.
I'll bet. Yeah, looking at the board and pictures of the board and some of the question cards and all that. Like I was just overwhelmed with nostalgia because it was a huge thing in my family to playing Trivial Pursuit.
I'll bet. Yeah, looking at the board and pictures of the board and some of the question cards and all that. Like I was just overwhelmed with nostalgia because it was a huge thing in my family to playing Trivial Pursuit.
I love that game. Yeah, for sure. As it turns out. For sure. And what's funny is it indoctrinated us into everything that boomers like. Like it was a really like huge cultural transfer from one generation to the other in that way.
I love that game. Yeah, for sure. As it turns out. For sure. And what's funny is it indoctrinated us into everything that boomers like. Like it was a really like huge cultural transfer from one generation to the other in that way.
I love that game. Yeah, for sure. As it turns out. For sure. And what's funny is it indoctrinated us into everything that boomers like. Like it was a really like huge cultural transfer from one generation to the other in that way.
Yeah, and Spiro Agnew from Mad Magazine. Oh, yeah. So we should probably start at the start, and that actually goes long before Trivial Pursuit was created, but not as far back as you would think. Like, in the United States, we did a live episode on game shows. That was really cool, and we talked about this some.
Yeah, and Spiro Agnew from Mad Magazine. Oh, yeah. So we should probably start at the start, and that actually goes long before Trivial Pursuit was created, but not as far back as you would think. Like, in the United States, we did a live episode on game shows. That was really cool, and we talked about this some.
Yeah, and Spiro Agnew from Mad Magazine. Oh, yeah. So we should probably start at the start, and that actually goes long before Trivial Pursuit was created, but not as far back as you would think. Like, in the United States, we did a live episode on game shows. That was really cool, and we talked about this some.
But back as far back to the 30s on the radio and then later on TV, quiz shows were like all the rage. And America's had like fascinations with trivia and then got bored with it and then came and found it again and then got bored with it. And back in the 30s, that was one of the peaks where everybody was super into it.
But back as far back to the 30s on the radio and then later on TV, quiz shows were like all the rage. And America's had like fascinations with trivia and then got bored with it and then came and found it again and then got bored with it. And back in the 30s, that was one of the peaks where everybody was super into it.
But back as far back to the 30s on the radio and then later on TV, quiz shows were like all the rage. And America's had like fascinations with trivia and then got bored with it and then came and found it again and then got bored with it. And back in the 30s, that was one of the peaks where everybody was super into it.
Maybe. Yeah. Because you're not just talking about trivia. You're also poking fun at your own game. Like like you're putting all this effort into something that doesn't really matter in the end.
Maybe. Yeah. Because you're not just talking about trivia. You're also poking fun at your own game. Like like you're putting all this effort into something that doesn't really matter in the end.
Maybe. Yeah. Because you're not just talking about trivia. You're also poking fun at your own game. Like like you're putting all this effort into something that doesn't really matter in the end.
I took it seriously, too, for sure. I love Trivial Pursuit, too, but it was definitely in the vein of the people who invented this thing that kind of poke fun at themselves and even at you, the player, for playing it.
I took it seriously, too, for sure. I love Trivial Pursuit, too, but it was definitely in the vein of the people who invented this thing that kind of poke fun at themselves and even at you, the player, for playing it.
I took it seriously, too, for sure. I love Trivial Pursuit, too, but it was definitely in the vein of the people who invented this thing that kind of poke fun at themselves and even at you, the player, for playing it.
He and another guy named Dan Karlinsky wrote a book simply called Trivia. But he's credited as one of like the early people to spread the whole concept of being quizzed about inconsequential, usually pop culture questions to just show like how much you knew about your childhood. And that Edwin Goodgold thing, two things about him. He went on to become the manager of Sha Na Na.
He and another guy named Dan Karlinsky wrote a book simply called Trivia. But he's credited as one of like the early people to spread the whole concept of being quizzed about inconsequential, usually pop culture questions to just show like how much you knew about your childhood. And that Edwin Goodgold thing, two things about him. He went on to become the manager of Sha Na Na.
He and another guy named Dan Karlinsky wrote a book simply called Trivia. But he's credited as one of like the early people to spread the whole concept of being quizzed about inconsequential, usually pop culture questions to just show like how much you knew about your childhood. And that Edwin Goodgold thing, two things about him. He went on to become the manager of Sha Na Na.
Yeah. Oh, wow. And he wrote in Columbia University's, I guess, their newspaper. He was one of their writers. He wrote that this is that these trivia games that are like the hot new thing on campus are played by young adults who, on the one hand, realize they have misspent their youth. Yet, on the other hand, do not want to let go of it. And that was the whole idea.
Yeah. Oh, wow. And he wrote in Columbia University's, I guess, their newspaper. He was one of their writers. He wrote that this is that these trivia games that are like the hot new thing on campus are played by young adults who, on the one hand, realize they have misspent their youth. Yet, on the other hand, do not want to let go of it. And that was the whole idea.
Yeah. Oh, wow. And he wrote in Columbia University's, I guess, their newspaper. He was one of their writers. He wrote that this is that these trivia games that are like the hot new thing on campus are played by young adults who, on the one hand, realize they have misspent their youth. Yet, on the other hand, do not want to let go of it. And that was the whole idea.
It was about all the stuff that you learned in your childhood from reading Superman comic books and listening to like gangster or seeing like gangster TV shows just from being a kid. That's what the whole thing was based on. And that kind of became a tradition, too, that it was largely stuff in the past. A lot of it was pop culture.
It was about all the stuff that you learned in your childhood from reading Superman comic books and listening to like gangster or seeing like gangster TV shows just from being a kid. That's what the whole thing was based on. And that kind of became a tradition, too, that it was largely stuff in the past. A lot of it was pop culture.
It was about all the stuff that you learned in your childhood from reading Superman comic books and listening to like gangster or seeing like gangster TV shows just from being a kid. That's what the whole thing was based on. And that kind of became a tradition, too, that it was largely stuff in the past. A lot of it was pop culture.
Yeah, and I didn't see it anywhere, but I would put some serious money on the idea that Trivial Pursuit's success revived Jeopardy. Yeah, I bet it did. Because it was a huge, huge deal, as we'll see. Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, and I didn't see it anywhere, but I would put some serious money on the idea that Trivial Pursuit's success revived Jeopardy. Yeah, I bet it did. Because it was a huge, huge deal, as we'll see. Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, and I didn't see it anywhere, but I would put some serious money on the idea that Trivial Pursuit's success revived Jeopardy. Yeah, I bet it did. Because it was a huge, huge deal, as we'll see. Yeah, for sure.
But the whole thing starts all the way back in 1979, in December of 1979, appropriately, because Trivial Pursuit and Christmas, for its first few years of being out, were synonymous with one another, essentially. Yeah. Maybe synonymous isn't the right word, but they were. It was a big deal around Christmas time when it first came out about that.
But the whole thing starts all the way back in 1979, in December of 1979, appropriately, because Trivial Pursuit and Christmas, for its first few years of being out, were synonymous with one another, essentially. Yeah. Maybe synonymous isn't the right word, but they were. It was a big deal around Christmas time when it first came out about that.
But the whole thing starts all the way back in 1979, in December of 1979, appropriately, because Trivial Pursuit and Christmas, for its first few years of being out, were synonymous with one another, essentially. Yeah. Maybe synonymous isn't the right word, but they were. It was a big deal around Christmas time when it first came out about that.
For sure. And these two guys, they're two Canadians. I read an article about them that was contemporary to them in the Toronto Star. It said that they come off like the two original hosers. Like even bigger hosers than Bob and Doug McKenzie is what they were saying.
For sure. And these two guys, they're two Canadians. I read an article about them that was contemporary to them in the Toronto Star. It said that they come off like the two original hosers. Like even bigger hosers than Bob and Doug McKenzie is what they were saying.
For sure. And these two guys, they're two Canadians. I read an article about them that was contemporary to them in the Toronto Star. It said that they come off like the two original hosers. Like even bigger hosers than Bob and Doug McKenzie is what they were saying.
Yeah, I think they definitely did. They certainly covered it. One of them, Scott Abbott, was a sports reporter for the Canadian press who I think his focus was on hockey. The other guy was Chris Haney. He was a photo editor at the Montreal Gazette. So these are a couple of late 70s, early 80s journalist dudes who wear mustaches and drink beer during their interviews on the news. And smoke. Yeah.
Yeah, I think they definitely did. They certainly covered it. One of them, Scott Abbott, was a sports reporter for the Canadian press who I think his focus was on hockey. The other guy was Chris Haney. He was a photo editor at the Montreal Gazette. So these are a couple of late 70s, early 80s journalist dudes who wear mustaches and drink beer during their interviews on the news. And smoke. Yeah.
Yeah, I think they definitely did. They certainly covered it. One of them, Scott Abbott, was a sports reporter for the Canadian press who I think his focus was on hockey. The other guy was Chris Haney. He was a photo editor at the Montreal Gazette. So these are a couple of late 70s, early 80s journalist dudes who wear mustaches and drink beer during their interviews on the news. And smoke. Yeah.
Yeah, and smoke during them, too. Like, these were the guys who invented Trivial Pursuit.
Yeah, and smoke during them, too. Like, these were the guys who invented Trivial Pursuit.
Yeah, and smoke during them, too. Like, these were the guys who invented Trivial Pursuit.
Yeah, that's how I was born. They just realized how many times he bought a Scrabble game and they were like, we could do that. What a story. Yeah, these guys, that was the kind of thing that they would talk about doing is making a game because they realized that other people have made money off of it. Up to this point, their big claim to fame in their circle was having
Yeah, that's how I was born. They just realized how many times he bought a Scrabble game and they were like, we could do that. What a story. Yeah, these guys, that was the kind of thing that they would talk about doing is making a game because they realized that other people have made money off of it. Up to this point, their big claim to fame in their circle was having
Yeah, that's how I was born. They just realized how many times he bought a Scrabble game and they were like, we could do that. What a story. Yeah, these guys, that was the kind of thing that they would talk about doing is making a game because they realized that other people have made money off of it. Up to this point, their big claim to fame in their circle was having
carried out a pyramid scheme with a chain letter that was actually successful in that they made money off of it, and they never got caught for it either. So up to this point, so these were, that was these kind of guys, right? And this particular idea, though, kind of started to take shape really, really quickly. I think it was Chris Abbott or Scott Abbott,
carried out a pyramid scheme with a chain letter that was actually successful in that they made money off of it, and they never got caught for it either. So up to this point, so these were, that was these kind of guys, right? And this particular idea, though, kind of started to take shape really, really quickly. I think it was Chris Abbott or Scott Abbott,
carried out a pyramid scheme with a chain letter that was actually successful in that they made money off of it, and they never got caught for it either. So up to this point, so these were, that was these kind of guys, right? And this particular idea, though, kind of started to take shape really, really quickly. I think it was Chris Abbott or Scott Abbott,
Who was like, well, how about something with trivia? And remember at the time, like trivia was not a hot item. And also, as we'll see, board games were not a hot item. So these were like two bad ideas that these guys decided to put together and accidentally became a success or not accidentally. It ended up becoming a success. But it was like they figured it out really quickly, didn't they?
Who was like, well, how about something with trivia? And remember at the time, like trivia was not a hot item. And also, as we'll see, board games were not a hot item. So these were like two bad ideas that these guys decided to put together and accidentally became a success or not accidentally. It ended up becoming a success. But it was like they figured it out really quickly, didn't they?
Who was like, well, how about something with trivia? And remember at the time, like trivia was not a hot item. And also, as we'll see, board games were not a hot item. So these were like two bad ideas that these guys decided to put together and accidentally became a success or not accidentally. It ended up becoming a success. But it was like they figured it out really quickly, didn't they?
Right, not wedges.
Right, not wedges.
Right, not wedges.
Yes. Well put. I am not one for boasting typically, but I will say that I once confirmed won a game doing all the things you just said in 20 minutes. Wow. By yourself? Yeah. No, no, no, not by myself. I was playing a dude at work at the liquor store. No, no, no.
Yes. Well put. I am not one for boasting typically, but I will say that I once confirmed won a game doing all the things you just said in 20 minutes. Wow. By yourself? Yeah. No, no, no, not by myself. I was playing a dude at work at the liquor store. No, no, no.
Yes. Well put. I am not one for boasting typically, but I will say that I once confirmed won a game doing all the things you just said in 20 minutes. Wow. By yourself? Yeah. No, no, no, not by myself. I was playing a dude at work at the liquor store. No, no, no.
I mean, I guess if you were really honest, you could play by yourself, you know? You could sit around and read cards.
I mean, I guess if you were really honest, you could play by yourself, you know? You could sit around and read cards.
I mean, I guess if you were really honest, you could play by yourself, you know? You could sit around and read cards.
That's not honest. I'm saying you could roll, you could move, you could ask yourself questions, answer them, and if you got it wrong. Yeah, yeah.
That's not honest. I'm saying you could roll, you could move, you could ask yourself questions, answer them, and if you got it wrong. Yeah, yeah.
That's not honest. I'm saying you could roll, you could move, you could ask yourself questions, answer them, and if you got it wrong. Yeah, yeah.
No, good try, Chuck. Right. Great guess. You kind of ruined my 20-minute anecdote, frankly.
No, good try, Chuck. Right. Great guess. You kind of ruined my 20-minute anecdote, frankly.
No, good try, Chuck. Right. Great guess. You kind of ruined my 20-minute anecdote, frankly.
Yeah, yeah. It could take a while, especially if you just had a lot of people who, yeah, didn't know trivia. But yeah, it would usually take, yeah, 45 minutes, an hour, depending on how fast everybody was moving. Usually it took longer because the whole point was almost every question and answer would like generate a quick conversation or usually short conversation, sometimes longer.
Yeah, yeah. It could take a while, especially if you just had a lot of people who, yeah, didn't know trivia. But yeah, it would usually take, yeah, 45 minutes, an hour, depending on how fast everybody was moving. Usually it took longer because the whole point was almost every question and answer would like generate a quick conversation or usually short conversation, sometimes longer.
Yeah, yeah. It could take a while, especially if you just had a lot of people who, yeah, didn't know trivia. But yeah, it would usually take, yeah, 45 minutes, an hour, depending on how fast everybody was moving. Usually it took longer because the whole point was almost every question and answer would like generate a quick conversation or usually short conversation, sometimes longer.
Right. Exactly to that, too. But that was the point. And that's one of the reasons it became so popular is like it was really easy to have a party centered on trivial pursuits.
Right. Exactly to that, too. But that was the point. And that's one of the reasons it became so popular is like it was really easy to have a party centered on trivial pursuits.
Right. Exactly to that, too. But that was the point. And that's one of the reasons it became so popular is like it was really easy to have a party centered on trivial pursuits.
Yeah, that was typically how it was done. So you could argue and be mad at one another when the other one insisted on the wrong answer.
Yeah, that was typically how it was done. So you could argue and be mad at one another when the other one insisted on the wrong answer.
Yeah, that was typically how it was done. So you could argue and be mad at one another when the other one insisted on the wrong answer.
Yeah, that was always my weak one, too. And that was always the one that would get picked for me if I ever made it to the middle.
Yeah, that was always my weak one, too. And that was always the one that would get picked for me if I ever made it to the middle.
Yeah, that was always my weak one, too. And that was always the one that would get picked for me if I ever made it to the middle.
It was usually history or entertainment.
It was usually history or entertainment.
It was usually history or entertainment.
Yeah. My worst was definitely sports and leisure. And I would, yeah, geography was probably second.
Yeah. My worst was definitely sports and leisure. And I would, yeah, geography was probably second.
Yeah. My worst was definitely sports and leisure. And I would, yeah, geography was probably second.
Right. Only in the British version.
Right. Only in the British version.
Right. Only in the British version.
Oh, OK. Well, if that's the end of the intro, then, Chuck, I think we have to put an ad break in here.
Oh, OK. Well, if that's the end of the intro, then, Chuck, I think we have to put an ad break in here.
Oh, OK. Well, if that's the end of the intro, then, Chuck, I think we have to put an ad break in here.
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Yeah, you can challenge yourself anywhere, too, with Peloton's all-access membership. So you can work out where you need to, like at home on your bike, tread, or row. Or you can take your favorite classes on the go and at the gym with the app.
So Haney and Abbott, they were like, we're going to do this. And they came upon a great idea that they would visit a toy industry convention, like the big one in Canada. I think it was the Canadian Toy Manufacturers Trade Show. I can't remember what it was called. I looked it up. I couldn't find anything on it. But they went, remember, they were journalists.
So Haney and Abbott, they were like, we're going to do this. And they came upon a great idea that they would visit a toy industry convention, like the big one in Canada. I think it was the Canadian Toy Manufacturers Trade Show. I can't remember what it was called. I looked it up. I couldn't find anything on it. But they went, remember, they were journalists.
So Haney and Abbott, they were like, we're going to do this. And they came upon a great idea that they would visit a toy industry convention, like the big one in Canada. I think it was the Canadian Toy Manufacturers Trade Show. I can't remember what it was called. I looked it up. I couldn't find anything on it. But they went, remember, they were journalists.
So they went as reporters as if they were on an assignment to do a story on the toy industry, specifically the board game industry. So they used that cover to pick the brains of a bunch of people who were in the board game industry. And one of the, well, they found out a couple of things very quickly. They found out that the board game industry was in a slump.
So they went as reporters as if they were on an assignment to do a story on the toy industry, specifically the board game industry. So they used that cover to pick the brains of a bunch of people who were in the board game industry. And one of the, well, they found out a couple of things very quickly. They found out that the board game industry was in a slump.
So they went as reporters as if they were on an assignment to do a story on the toy industry, specifically the board game industry. So they used that cover to pick the brains of a bunch of people who were in the board game industry. And one of the, well, they found out a couple of things very quickly. They found out that the board game industry was in a slump.
They also found out that is a very, very closed industry. Where if you're a newcomer with an idea, just hit the bricks. They're not going to listen to you. That's not how the board game industry works. And they figured this out. So they decided that from going to this conference, they were going to have to do this themselves.
They also found out that is a very, very closed industry. Where if you're a newcomer with an idea, just hit the bricks. They're not going to listen to you. That's not how the board game industry works. And they figured this out. So they decided that from going to this conference, they were going to have to do this themselves.
They also found out that is a very, very closed industry. Where if you're a newcomer with an idea, just hit the bricks. They're not going to listen to you. That's not how the board game industry works. And they figured this out. So they decided that from going to this conference, they were going to have to do this themselves.
If they wanted to get this game out there, they couldn't just sell the idea. They had to make the game first. And that's what they set about doing.
If they wanted to get this game out there, they couldn't just sell the idea. They had to make the game first. And that's what they set about doing.
If they wanted to get this game out there, they couldn't just sell the idea. They had to make the game first. And that's what they set about doing.
Right. You know, very similar to that. Not quite as lucrative, but still pretty, pretty well. The people who bought several shares each were set for life basically after the game hit. Oh, yeah. But at the time, Chris Haney told his mom she shouldn't invest.
Right. You know, very similar to that. Not quite as lucrative, but still pretty, pretty well. The people who bought several shares each were set for life basically after the game hit. Oh, yeah. But at the time, Chris Haney told his mom she shouldn't invest.
Right. You know, very similar to that. Not quite as lucrative, but still pretty, pretty well. The people who bought several shares each were set for life basically after the game hit. Oh, yeah. But at the time, Chris Haney told his mom she shouldn't invest.
And this is his idea, his business venture. That's how much he believed in it, I guess. But there's a guy named Michael Wurstlin. And so this iconic, really elegant design for the package, the board itself, cards, all that stuff. It was Michael Wurstlin's work. He was 18 at the time.
And this is his idea, his business venture. That's how much he believed in it, I guess. But there's a guy named Michael Wurstlin. And so this iconic, really elegant design for the package, the board itself, cards, all that stuff. It was Michael Wurstlin's work. He was 18 at the time.
And this is his idea, his business venture. That's how much he believed in it, I guess. But there's a guy named Michael Wurstlin. And so this iconic, really elegant design for the package, the board itself, cards, all that stuff. It was Michael Wurstlin's work. He was 18 at the time.
And he didn't get a dime up front for it. He did this work for five shares of stock in the company of equity. And, yeah, it was very smart, as we'll see.
And he didn't get a dime up front for it. He did this work for five shares of stock in the company of equity. And, yeah, it was very smart, as we'll see.
And he didn't get a dime up front for it. He did this work for five shares of stock in the company of equity. And, yeah, it was very smart, as we'll see.
Yeah, we should explain because I've never understood it until I started researching this. It's called genus because genus, you know, like in taxonomy, genus is above species. So there's a bunch of different variations of this thing. Another way to interpret or another definition of it, it's general. It's not specific. And so the questions in here were not, they were very general.
Yeah, we should explain because I've never understood it until I started researching this. It's called genus because genus, you know, like in taxonomy, genus is above species. So there's a bunch of different variations of this thing. Another way to interpret or another definition of it, it's general. It's not specific. And so the questions in here were not, they were very general.
Yeah, we should explain because I've never understood it until I started researching this. It's called genus because genus, you know, like in taxonomy, genus is above species. So there's a bunch of different variations of this thing. Another way to interpret or another definition of it, it's general. It's not specific. And so the questions in here were not, they were very general.
You didn't have to be like a specialist in anything. To play Trivial Pursuit. And if you were, you're kind of handicapped because there was a bunch of other questions that had nothing to do with your specialist or special. Yes. Specialist. Specialism. What is the word I'm looking for? Specialty. There you go.
You didn't have to be like a specialist in anything. To play Trivial Pursuit. And if you were, you're kind of handicapped because there was a bunch of other questions that had nothing to do with your specialist or special. Yes. Specialist. Specialism. What is the word I'm looking for? Specialty. There you go.
You didn't have to be like a specialist in anything. To play Trivial Pursuit. And if you were, you're kind of handicapped because there was a bunch of other questions that had nothing to do with your specialist or special. Yes. Specialist. Specialism. What is the word I'm looking for? Specialty. There you go.
I think there's somebody behind me with a hammer.
I think there's somebody behind me with a hammer.
I think there's somebody behind me with a hammer.
Yeah. We were like, well, what about plastic? They're like, keep guessing.
Yeah. We were like, well, what about plastic? They're like, keep guessing.
Yeah. We were like, well, what about plastic? They're like, keep guessing.
That's brain damage if you play too much.
That's brain damage if you play too much.
That's brain damage if you play too much.
Yeah, we've said it before and we'll say it again. Like they were the greatest bunch of people that I've ever worked with as a group. Like as a group, they were as good as it comes. It was amazing.
Yeah, we've said it before and we'll say it again. Like they were the greatest bunch of people that I've ever worked with as a group. Like as a group, they were as good as it comes. It was amazing.
Yeah, we've said it before and we'll say it again. Like they were the greatest bunch of people that I've ever worked with as a group. Like as a group, they were as good as it comes. It was amazing.
Yeah, hugely consequential. And this was Christmas 1981. So this is the first Christmas that Trivial Pursuit comes out and makes a big splash because they sold out of those 1,100 games so quickly that by the time the next Christmas rolled around, they'd already sold 100,000 copies in Canada. And that's a lot.
Yeah, hugely consequential. And this was Christmas 1981. So this is the first Christmas that Trivial Pursuit comes out and makes a big splash because they sold out of those 1,100 games so quickly that by the time the next Christmas rolled around, they'd already sold 100,000 copies in Canada. And that's a lot.
Yeah, hugely consequential. And this was Christmas 1981. So this is the first Christmas that Trivial Pursuit comes out and makes a big splash because they sold out of those 1,100 games so quickly that by the time the next Christmas rolled around, they'd already sold 100,000 copies in Canada. And that's a lot.
And it turns out it's even more than you think it is, because at the time, a board game to be a bestseller sold about 10,000 copies. So this little this little independent. Yeah. A very independent game created by a couple of outsiders sold 10 times more than you would expect it to sell as a bestseller in this first year.
And it turns out it's even more than you think it is, because at the time, a board game to be a bestseller sold about 10,000 copies. So this little this little independent. Yeah. A very independent game created by a couple of outsiders sold 10 times more than you would expect it to sell as a bestseller in this first year.
And it turns out it's even more than you think it is, because at the time, a board game to be a bestseller sold about 10,000 copies. So this little this little independent. Yeah. A very independent game created by a couple of outsiders sold 10 times more than you would expect it to sell as a bestseller in this first year.
Reiter, yeah.
Reiter, yeah.
Reiter, yeah.
And I saw one hundred and twenty five today. Oh, really? Yeah, I put $40 in for 1983 in West Egg, and it said $125. It told me $90. Oh, God. Oh, no. All of our inflation calculations are now in question.
And I saw one hundred and twenty five today. Oh, really? Yeah, I put $40 in for 1983 in West Egg, and it said $125. It told me $90. Oh, God. Oh, no. All of our inflation calculations are now in question.
And I saw one hundred and twenty five today. Oh, really? Yeah, I put $40 in for 1983 in West Egg, and it said $125. It told me $90. Oh, God. Oh, no. All of our inflation calculations are now in question.
It must be having a bad day. This is the worst thing that's ever happened to us, our beloved West Egg.
It must be having a bad day. This is the worst thing that's ever happened to us, our beloved West Egg.
It must be having a bad day. This is the worst thing that's ever happened to us, our beloved West Egg.
Voluptuous, too. So you said heavy. Each game package weighed six pounds because they really pulled out the stops and the materials. And like, yeah, it was cardboard and yeah, it was plastic, but it was really, really well-made, well-manufactured, well-designed cardboard and plastic put together. And again, just the look of it had such an elegant look. It just didn't.
Voluptuous, too. So you said heavy. Each game package weighed six pounds because they really pulled out the stops and the materials. And like, yeah, it was cardboard and yeah, it was plastic, but it was really, really well-made, well-manufactured, well-designed cardboard and plastic put together. And again, just the look of it had such an elegant look. It just didn't.
Voluptuous, too. So you said heavy. Each game package weighed six pounds because they really pulled out the stops and the materials. And like, yeah, it was cardboard and yeah, it was plastic, but it was really, really well-made, well-manufactured, well-designed cardboard and plastic put together. And again, just the look of it had such an elegant look. It just didn't.
It did not look like other board games at the time. It was like Sorry or Trouble or something like that, you know, where it's like wacky and there's like a cartoon explosion or something like that. A bunch of kids rolling dice on there. And that was a big deal, too. There was no kid, no person anywhere on the box. The only person who showed up was the poet, the English poet Alexander Pope.
It did not look like other board games at the time. It was like Sorry or Trouble or something like that, you know, where it's like wacky and there's like a cartoon explosion or something like that. A bunch of kids rolling dice on there. And that was a big deal, too. There was no kid, no person anywhere on the box. The only person who showed up was the poet, the English poet Alexander Pope.
It did not look like other board games at the time. It was like Sorry or Trouble or something like that, you know, where it's like wacky and there's like a cartoon explosion or something like that. A bunch of kids rolling dice on there. And that was a big deal, too. There was no kid, no person anywhere on the box. The only person who showed up was the poet, the English poet Alexander Pope.
whose quote, what mighty contests arrive from trivial things, was on the box. So this whole thing is so highbrow that it just doesn't even make sense. And yet that made people want it all the more. It was a brand new thing. It was a revival of board games is what Trivial Pursuit was when it came out.
whose quote, what mighty contests arrive from trivial things, was on the box. So this whole thing is so highbrow that it just doesn't even make sense. And yet that made people want it all the more. It was a brand new thing. It was a revival of board games is what Trivial Pursuit was when it came out.
whose quote, what mighty contests arrive from trivial things, was on the box. So this whole thing is so highbrow that it just doesn't even make sense. And yet that made people want it all the more. It was a brand new thing. It was a revival of board games is what Trivial Pursuit was when it came out.
Yeah. And maybe make some extra allowance in the bargain.
Yeah. And maybe make some extra allowance in the bargain.
Yeah. And maybe make some extra allowance in the bargain.
So this was Christmas 1983 that it blew up in the United States. And when it blew up in the U.S., it really just changed everything. Like you said, that first year, they sold 1.3 million games. They sold 20 million the next year in 1984. Wow.
So this was Christmas 1983 that it blew up in the United States. And when it blew up in the U.S., it really just changed everything. Like you said, that first year, they sold 1.3 million games. They sold 20 million the next year in 1984. Wow.
So this was Christmas 1983 that it blew up in the United States. And when it blew up in the U.S., it really just changed everything. Like you said, that first year, they sold 1.3 million games. They sold 20 million the next year in 1984. Wow.
And by January of 1984, right after it started to come out in the United States, the New York Times reported that people in New York were trading cocktail parties for trivial pursuit parties. And I was thinking about it. Yeah, right. Yeah. I don't think there's anything more insufferable than the New York Times reporting on what cool New Yorkers are doing right now.
And by January of 1984, right after it started to come out in the United States, the New York Times reported that people in New York were trading cocktail parties for trivial pursuit parties. And I was thinking about it. Yeah, right. Yeah. I don't think there's anything more insufferable than the New York Times reporting on what cool New Yorkers are doing right now.
And by January of 1984, right after it started to come out in the United States, the New York Times reported that people in New York were trading cocktail parties for trivial pursuit parties. And I was thinking about it. Yeah, right. Yeah. I don't think there's anything more insufferable than the New York Times reporting on what cool New Yorkers are doing right now.
This was a great example of that, the 80s version, too.
This was a great example of that, the 80s version, too.
This was a great example of that, the 80s version, too.
Yeah, I've never seen that movie, but I do know that one of the characters lets her husband, I guess, impregnate, serve as like a surrogate sperm donor to her friend. Yeah. And the only reason I know that is because there is a great Saturday Night Live skit about it. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, I've never seen that movie, but I do know that one of the characters lets her husband, I guess, impregnate, serve as like a surrogate sperm donor to her friend. Yeah. And the only reason I know that is because there is a great Saturday Night Live skit about it. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, I've never seen that movie, but I do know that one of the characters lets her husband, I guess, impregnate, serve as like a surrogate sperm donor to her friend. Yeah. And the only reason I know that is because there is a great Saturday Night Live skit about it. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah.
And I guess did they show the the the wife who is like hanging out downstairs in the movie while they went upstairs or something like that?
And I guess did they show the the the wife who is like hanging out downstairs in the movie while they went upstairs or something like that?
And I guess did they show the the the wife who is like hanging out downstairs in the movie while they went upstairs or something like that?
So in the Saturday Night Live one, like she's just sitting there like reflecting, like drinking tea and like thinking about how great and just beautiful this is. The sound coming from upstairs, they're like really getting into it. And she's getting like more and more concerned and worried. I think I remember that. Yeah, I think it was Jan Hooks who was like the woman downstairs.
So in the Saturday Night Live one, like she's just sitting there like reflecting, like drinking tea and like thinking about how great and just beautiful this is. The sound coming from upstairs, they're like really getting into it. And she's getting like more and more concerned and worried. I think I remember that. Yeah, I think it was Jan Hooks who was like the woman downstairs.
So in the Saturday Night Live one, like she's just sitting there like reflecting, like drinking tea and like thinking about how great and just beautiful this is. The sound coming from upstairs, they're like really getting into it. And she's getting like more and more concerned and worried. I think I remember that. Yeah, I think it was Jan Hooks who was like the woman downstairs.
It was a great sketch.
It was a great sketch.
It was a great sketch.
Oh, nice. That was her pick, huh?
Oh, nice. That was her pick, huh?
Oh, nice. That was her pick, huh?
OK, so I should wait 10 years to see it.
OK, so I should wait 10 years to see it.
OK, so I should wait 10 years to see it.
I'll wait 10 years.
I'll wait 10 years.
I'll wait 10 years.
That became kind of an urban legend. Like your cousin's friend memorized all 6,000 questions. Yeah, that's funny. Yeah. And there were some other cute or interesting anecdotes, I guess, that kind of came out around the time. One was Ronald Reagan was reported on having played the game while he was waiting for the election results in 1984. And during the game, he got two questions about himself.
That became kind of an urban legend. Like your cousin's friend memorized all 6,000 questions. Yeah, that's funny. Yeah. And there were some other cute or interesting anecdotes, I guess, that kind of came out around the time. One was Ronald Reagan was reported on having played the game while he was waiting for the election results in 1984. And during the game, he got two questions about himself.
That became kind of an urban legend. Like your cousin's friend memorized all 6,000 questions. Yeah, that's funny. Yeah. And there were some other cute or interesting anecdotes, I guess, that kind of came out around the time. One was Ronald Reagan was reported on having played the game while he was waiting for the election results in 1984. And during the game, he got two questions about himself.
And you can relax, he got them correct, both of them.
And you can relax, he got them correct, both of them.
And you can relax, he got them correct, both of them.
One of the facts I saw bandied about in some of the reporting, that was a great Reagan, by the way, was that either Ronald Reagan signed Clark Gable's discharge papers from the Army or Clark Gable signed Ronald Reagan's. Oh, really? It depends on who you ask, yes.
One of the facts I saw bandied about in some of the reporting, that was a great Reagan, by the way, was that either Ronald Reagan signed Clark Gable's discharge papers from the Army or Clark Gable signed Ronald Reagan's. Oh, really? It depends on who you ask, yes.
One of the facts I saw bandied about in some of the reporting, that was a great Reagan, by the way, was that either Ronald Reagan signed Clark Gable's discharge papers from the Army or Clark Gable signed Ronald Reagan's. Oh, really? It depends on who you ask, yes.
No, no. Like they just happened to be like, that was just happened to be the luck of the draw as far as the arrangement went.
No, no. Like they just happened to be like, that was just happened to be the luck of the draw as far as the arrangement went.
No, no. Like they just happened to be like, that was just happened to be the luck of the draw as far as the arrangement went.
No, I think like let's say it was Clark Gable who signed them. He would have maybe been like a higher up to Ronald Reagan. Ronald Reagan was getting out. It happened to be Clark Gable rather than Colonel Joe Schmo. Yeah.
No, I think like let's say it was Clark Gable who signed them. He would have maybe been like a higher up to Ronald Reagan. Ronald Reagan was getting out. It happened to be Clark Gable rather than Colonel Joe Schmo. Yeah.
No, I think like let's say it was Clark Gable who signed them. He would have maybe been like a higher up to Ronald Reagan. Ronald Reagan was getting out. It happened to be Clark Gable rather than Colonel Joe Schmo. Yeah.
And so at each Christmas 1983, it was like you could not find that thing. Yeah. And 1984, same same deal. Like it was really hard to find. But this time, Selchow and Ryder had like learned their lesson and were like keeping up with supply a lot better than they were at the very beginning of this whole thing.
And so at each Christmas 1983, it was like you could not find that thing. Yeah. And 1984, same same deal. Like it was really hard to find. But this time, Selchow and Ryder had like learned their lesson and were like keeping up with supply a lot better than they were at the very beginning of this whole thing.
And so at each Christmas 1983, it was like you could not find that thing. Yeah. And 1984, same same deal. Like it was really hard to find. But this time, Selchow and Ryder had like learned their lesson and were like keeping up with supply a lot better than they were at the very beginning of this whole thing.
And so at the peak of this, I think it really peaked in 84, but that certainly continued on into 1985. Oh, yeah. In the spring of 1985, 15% of households in America had a Trivial Pursuit game in their house. I saw at some point it was 20%, one in five.
And so at the peak of this, I think it really peaked in 84, but that certainly continued on into 1985. Oh, yeah. In the spring of 1985, 15% of households in America had a Trivial Pursuit game in their house. I saw at some point it was 20%, one in five.
And so at the peak of this, I think it really peaked in 84, but that certainly continued on into 1985. Oh, yeah. In the spring of 1985, 15% of households in America had a Trivial Pursuit game in their house. I saw at some point it was 20%, one in five.
Oh, I believe that. Totally.
Oh, I believe that. Totally.
Oh, I believe that. Totally.
Yeah, I'm sure it's just a little bit frayed and the parts where it folded and the rest of it's just fine.
Yeah, I'm sure it's just a little bit frayed and the parts where it folded and the rest of it's just fine.
Yeah, I'm sure it's just a little bit frayed and the parts where it folded and the rest of it's just fine.
Nice. There's a little cocaine in the little folds and tequila stains on some of the spots. Yeah.
Nice. There's a little cocaine in the little folds and tequila stains on some of the spots. Yeah.
Nice. There's a little cocaine in the little folds and tequila stains on some of the spots. Yeah.
Yeah, and Worsland, the guy, the 18-year-old who did all the art, he founded a company called Worsland Group, all one word, that became pretty successful marketers in Toronto. And he used his money from his shares to start that. So it definitely paid off. And then, yeah, like you said, the Haney's and Chris Abbott or Scott Abbott were just mega rich from this.
Yeah, and Worsland, the guy, the 18-year-old who did all the art, he founded a company called Worsland Group, all one word, that became pretty successful marketers in Toronto. And he used his money from his shares to start that. So it definitely paid off. And then, yeah, like you said, the Haney's and Chris Abbott or Scott Abbott were just mega rich from this.
Yeah, and Worsland, the guy, the 18-year-old who did all the art, he founded a company called Worsland Group, all one word, that became pretty successful marketers in Toronto. And he used his money from his shares to start that. So it definitely paid off. And then, yeah, like you said, the Haney's and Chris Abbott or Scott Abbott were just mega rich from this.
I mean, this game made hundreds of millions of dollars in the 80s, like 80s money. God knows what West Egg would convert that to. Yeah. But it was there was a lot of money made off this. And you got to think back like these were just a couple of dudes who had an idea and went with it.
I mean, this game made hundreds of millions of dollars in the 80s, like 80s money. God knows what West Egg would convert that to. Yeah. But it was there was a lot of money made off this. And you got to think back like these were just a couple of dudes who had an idea and went with it.
I mean, this game made hundreds of millions of dollars in the 80s, like 80s money. God knows what West Egg would convert that to. Yeah. But it was there was a lot of money made off this. And you got to think back like these were just a couple of dudes who had an idea and went with it.
Although there were people who were like, yeah, that's questionable whether you had that idea like you kind of referred to earlier. Right.
Although there were people who were like, yeah, that's questionable whether you had that idea like you kind of referred to earlier. Right.
Although there were people who were like, yeah, that's questionable whether you had that idea like you kind of referred to earlier. Right.
Yeah. I mean, imagine being that guy. You're like, you owe me tens of millions of dollars. And then 10 years later, you owe them a million dollars. Like, yeah, this is just some guy. He wasn't some like high flying jet setter who had a bunch of money. I don't know what happened to him.
Yeah. I mean, imagine being that guy. You're like, you owe me tens of millions of dollars. And then 10 years later, you owe them a million dollars. Like, yeah, this is just some guy. He wasn't some like high flying jet setter who had a bunch of money. I don't know what happened to him.
Yeah. I mean, imagine being that guy. You're like, you owe me tens of millions of dollars. And then 10 years later, you owe them a million dollars. Like, yeah, this is just some guy. He wasn't some like high flying jet setter who had a bunch of money. I don't know what happened to him.
Yeah. But I mean, this is the one guy who said that. And like you said, he didn't come up with witnesses or any kind of supporting evidence. And yeah, it's just not clear what the deal was, whether he was just looking for a payday or if he did get ripped off. But as far as the court's concerned, he definitely did not get ripped off.
Yeah. But I mean, this is the one guy who said that. And like you said, he didn't come up with witnesses or any kind of supporting evidence. And yeah, it's just not clear what the deal was, whether he was just looking for a payday or if he did get ripped off. But as far as the court's concerned, he definitely did not get ripped off.
Yeah. But I mean, this is the one guy who said that. And like you said, he didn't come up with witnesses or any kind of supporting evidence. And yeah, it's just not clear what the deal was, whether he was just looking for a payday or if he did get ripped off. But as far as the court's concerned, he definitely did not get ripped off.
Well, if it was like a David and Goliath thing where Goliath won, that would be very sad indeed. Yeah, what about the other one? I can't imagine that. Yeah, we'll move on because this one's getting really sad. The other one is the story of a guy named Fred L. Wirth. And if you are into trivia, Fred Wirth is essentially your messiah.
Well, if it was like a David and Goliath thing where Goliath won, that would be very sad indeed. Yeah, what about the other one? I can't imagine that. Yeah, we'll move on because this one's getting really sad. The other one is the story of a guy named Fred L. Wirth. And if you are into trivia, Fred Wirth is essentially your messiah.
Well, if it was like a David and Goliath thing where Goliath won, that would be very sad indeed. Yeah, what about the other one? I can't imagine that. Yeah, we'll move on because this one's getting really sad. The other one is the story of a guy named Fred L. Wirth. And if you are into trivia, Fred Wirth is essentially your messiah.
He is the original trivia dude who's been writing books on trivia, books containing trivia for decades and decades now. I don't know if he's still alive, but if he is, he's probably still going strong. And he apparently had published a three-volume encyclopedia of trivia at some point. This was before Trivia Pursuit was launched. And he did something.
He is the original trivia dude who's been writing books on trivia, books containing trivia for decades and decades now. I don't know if he's still alive, but if he is, he's probably still going strong. And he apparently had published a three-volume encyclopedia of trivia at some point. This was before Trivia Pursuit was launched. And he did something.
He is the original trivia dude who's been writing books on trivia, books containing trivia for decades and decades now. I don't know if he's still alive, but if he is, he's probably still going strong. And he apparently had published a three-volume encyclopedia of trivia at some point. This was before Trivia Pursuit was launched. And he did something.
You know how we've talked about mapmakers, like, including, like, a fake town to basically protect their property, see if somebody ripped them off? Yeah. He did something with trivia question. He included a trick question in his stuff.
You know how we've talked about mapmakers, like, including, like, a fake town to basically protect their property, see if somebody ripped them off? Yeah. He did something with trivia question. He included a trick question in his stuff.
You know how we've talked about mapmakers, like, including, like, a fake town to basically protect their property, see if somebody ripped them off? Yeah. He did something with trivia question. He included a trick question in his stuff.
No, that was Beretta.
No, that was Beretta.
No, that was Beretta.
Yeah. I mean, they said that they used his book for creating these things. They didn't deny that at all. But yeah, I guess it was just their case was based on the idea that a fact's a fact. This guy, it's not a creation of his own.
Yeah. I mean, they said that they used his book for creating these things. They didn't deny that at all. But yeah, I guess it was just their case was based on the idea that a fact's a fact. This guy, it's not a creation of his own.
Yeah. I mean, they said that they used his book for creating these things. They didn't deny that at all. But yeah, I guess it was just their case was based on the idea that a fact's a fact. This guy, it's not a creation of his own.
He found it. Right. No, I get it. And I imagine Fred Worth probably thought that was like an iron proof defense. Like, yeah, I got these people into putting this question in there and it didn't work out. I'm sure he was astonished when that came along, that ruling.
He found it. Right. No, I get it. And I imagine Fred Worth probably thought that was like an iron proof defense. Like, yeah, I got these people into putting this question in there and it didn't work out. I'm sure he was astonished when that came along, that ruling.
He found it. Right. No, I get it. And I imagine Fred Worth probably thought that was like an iron proof defense. Like, yeah, I got these people into putting this question in there and it didn't work out. I'm sure he was astonished when that came along, that ruling.
But also just before we move on, Chuck, I just want to tell all of our hardcore Colombo fan listeners to just stop your emails right now. We know for a fact that Frank is not, as far as canon goes, Columbo's first name. Canonically, Columbo doesn't have a first name or else his first name is Lieutenant.
But also just before we move on, Chuck, I just want to tell all of our hardcore Colombo fan listeners to just stop your emails right now. We know for a fact that Frank is not, as far as canon goes, Columbo's first name. Canonically, Columbo doesn't have a first name or else his first name is Lieutenant.
But also just before we move on, Chuck, I just want to tell all of our hardcore Colombo fan listeners to just stop your emails right now. We know for a fact that Frank is not, as far as canon goes, Columbo's first name. Canonically, Columbo doesn't have a first name or else his first name is Lieutenant.
So Frank Columbo just happened to show up in a couple of screenshots that the producers of the show originally never intended anybody to be able to zoom in on. Right.
So Frank Columbo just happened to show up in a couple of screenshots that the producers of the show originally never intended anybody to be able to zoom in on. Right.
So Frank Columbo just happened to show up in a couple of screenshots that the producers of the show originally never intended anybody to be able to zoom in on. Right.
Oh, yeah, definitely.
Oh, yeah, definitely.
Oh, yeah, definitely.
Sure. Yeah, we got all kinds. Takes all kinds, Chuck.
Sure. Yeah, we got all kinds. Takes all kinds, Chuck.
Sure. Yeah, we got all kinds. Takes all kinds, Chuck.
So, yeah, probably.
So, yeah, probably.
So, yeah, probably.
Oh, so they're they're now the Brampton Battalion, but they were the North Bay Battalion, right? No, no, no.
Oh, so they're they're now the Brampton Battalion, but they were the North Bay Battalion, right? No, no, no.
Oh, so they're they're now the Brampton Battalion, but they were the North Bay Battalion, right? No, no, no.
Okay. I always get North Bay and Brampton confused. I do too. So Olivia dug up a pretty interesting article written by who, Chuck? A guy named Ron Rodriguez. No, it's Juan Rodriguez.
Okay. I always get North Bay and Brampton confused. I do too. So Olivia dug up a pretty interesting article written by who, Chuck? A guy named Ron Rodriguez. No, it's Juan Rodriguez.
Okay. I always get North Bay and Brampton confused. I do too. So Olivia dug up a pretty interesting article written by who, Chuck? A guy named Ron Rodriguez. No, it's Juan Rodriguez.
So, Mr. Rodriguez is what we're going to call him for now, because his name is really hard to say, it turns out. He wrote, I think, a daily quota of 40 trivial pursuit questions a day, obviously, and only about half would get picked. And we kind of went through that, too, because we helped out putting questions together for our version. And they asked for hundreds and hundreds of them.
So, Mr. Rodriguez is what we're going to call him for now, because his name is really hard to say, it turns out. He wrote, I think, a daily quota of 40 trivial pursuit questions a day, obviously, and only about half would get picked. And we kind of went through that, too, because we helped out putting questions together for our version. And they asked for hundreds and hundreds of them.
So, Mr. Rodriguez is what we're going to call him for now, because his name is really hard to say, it turns out. He wrote, I think, a daily quota of 40 trivial pursuit questions a day, obviously, and only about half would get picked. And we kind of went through that, too, because we helped out putting questions together for our version. And they asked for hundreds and hundreds of them.
And you're like, OK, well, we're done. They're like, OK, well, we're going to use about a third of those. So we're going to have to do this again a couple more times. And it was like, there weren't that many facts in all of the episodes of Stuff You Should Know, you guys. But we pulled it out. But I can feel Mr. Rodriguez's pain.
And you're like, OK, well, we're done. They're like, OK, well, we're going to use about a third of those. So we're going to have to do this again a couple more times. And it was like, there weren't that many facts in all of the episodes of Stuff You Should Know, you guys. But we pulled it out. But I can feel Mr. Rodriguez's pain.
And you're like, OK, well, we're done. They're like, OK, well, we're going to use about a third of those. So we're going to have to do this again a couple more times. And it was like, there weren't that many facts in all of the episodes of Stuff You Should Know, you guys. But we pulled it out. But I can feel Mr. Rodriguez's pain.
Yeah, I should say we weren't actually writing the questions. We were coming up with the source material for the questions from the podcast.
Yeah, I should say we weren't actually writing the questions. We were coming up with the source material for the questions from the podcast.
Yeah, I should say we weren't actually writing the questions. We were coming up with the source material for the questions from the podcast.
Yeah. There's some writer at Hasbro who's like, uh.
Yeah. There's some writer at Hasbro who's like, uh.
Yeah. There's some writer at Hasbro who's like, uh.
And then I think now, over the years, there's been about 300 editions published. Wow. And very early on, they stayed fairly generalist. Although, I mean, let me take that back. They went from genus to silver screen edition, baby boomers edition, and I think a sports edition. But compared to some of the editions that they've come out with now, those are still pretty generalist. Yeah.
And then I think now, over the years, there's been about 300 editions published. Wow. And very early on, they stayed fairly generalist. Although, I mean, let me take that back. They went from genus to silver screen edition, baby boomers edition, and I think a sports edition. But compared to some of the editions that they've come out with now, those are still pretty generalist. Yeah.
And then I think now, over the years, there's been about 300 editions published. Wow. And very early on, they stayed fairly generalist. Although, I mean, let me take that back. They went from genus to silver screen edition, baby boomers edition, and I think a sports edition. But compared to some of the editions that they've come out with now, those are still pretty generalist. Yeah.
So another one was Disney. Disney was the first tie in that they had in 1985. And that was still pretty general. It wasn't like Donald Duck facts specifically. Right. Weirdly, here's a piece of trivia for you. The second brand tie in that Trivial Pursuit released a game around was Fame, the TV show and movie. Oh, wow. Like I'm Going to Live Forever had its own Trivial Pursuit edition back in 1993.
So another one was Disney. Disney was the first tie in that they had in 1985. And that was still pretty general. It wasn't like Donald Duck facts specifically. Right. Weirdly, here's a piece of trivia for you. The second brand tie in that Trivial Pursuit released a game around was Fame, the TV show and movie. Oh, wow. Like I'm Going to Live Forever had its own Trivial Pursuit edition back in 1993.
So another one was Disney. Disney was the first tie in that they had in 1985. And that was still pretty general. It wasn't like Donald Duck facts specifically. Right. Weirdly, here's a piece of trivia for you. The second brand tie in that Trivial Pursuit released a game around was Fame, the TV show and movie. Oh, wow. Like I'm Going to Live Forever had its own Trivial Pursuit edition back in 1993.
That's a great question.
That's a great question.
That's a great question.
No, in that Slate article that you referred to, the author makes a case. They were basically saying, I think the whole premise was Trivial Pursuit lost its way. And this was written about 10 years ago or something.
No, in that Slate article that you referred to, the author makes a case. They were basically saying, I think the whole premise was Trivial Pursuit lost its way. And this was written about 10 years ago or something.
No, in that Slate article that you referred to, the author makes a case. They were basically saying, I think the whole premise was Trivial Pursuit lost its way. And this was written about 10 years ago or something.
And the premise or the thesis this author had was that it went from being general, where basically anybody could come along and try their hand at it, to increasingly more specific, to where now you had to know everything there is to know about Harry Potter. or everything there is to know about the Lord of the Rings, or Friends, or The Nightmare Before Christmas, or that kind of thing.
And the premise or the thesis this author had was that it went from being general, where basically anybody could come along and try their hand at it, to increasingly more specific, to where now you had to know everything there is to know about Harry Potter. or everything there is to know about the Lord of the Rings, or Friends, or The Nightmare Before Christmas, or that kind of thing.
And the premise or the thesis this author had was that it went from being general, where basically anybody could come along and try their hand at it, to increasingly more specific, to where now you had to know everything there is to know about Harry Potter. or everything there is to know about the Lord of the Rings, or Friends, or The Nightmare Before Christmas, or that kind of thing.
And that it just made it more and more narrow. It narrowed the pool, so you have to have more and more additions to appeal to as many people as possible. Whereas if you just made more generalist versions of the game, then you were always going to appeal to the most people possible.
And that it just made it more and more narrow. It narrowed the pool, so you have to have more and more additions to appeal to as many people as possible. Whereas if you just made more generalist versions of the game, then you were always going to appeal to the most people possible.
And that it just made it more and more narrow. It narrowed the pool, so you have to have more and more additions to appeal to as many people as possible. Whereas if you just made more generalist versions of the game, then you were always going to appeal to the most people possible.
That's awesome. I will be very disappointed if the Seinfeld edition doesn't have a question about who invaded Spain in the 900s and the answer is the moops. Right. It's got to. It has to.
That's awesome. I will be very disappointed if the Seinfeld edition doesn't have a question about who invaded Spain in the 900s and the answer is the moops. Right. It's got to. It has to.
That's awesome. I will be very disappointed if the Seinfeld edition doesn't have a question about who invaded Spain in the 900s and the answer is the moops. Right. It's got to. It has to.
Probably. They've come up with some other pretty cool ones, too. One's called X. It's much more adult, edgy questions. I think it's for 18 and up. And it's a stamp game where if you get it wrong, they stamp an X onto your forehead in ink. And once you get five stamps on your forehead, you're out. Interesting. It is interesting. And then the weirdest edition I found, Chuck, was the EMS edition.
Probably. They've come up with some other pretty cool ones, too. One's called X. It's much more adult, edgy questions. I think it's for 18 and up. And it's a stamp game where if you get it wrong, they stamp an X onto your forehead in ink. And once you get five stamps on your forehead, you're out. Interesting. It is interesting. And then the weirdest edition I found, Chuck, was the EMS edition.
Probably. They've come up with some other pretty cool ones, too. One's called X. It's much more adult, edgy questions. I think it's for 18 and up. And it's a stamp game where if you get it wrong, they stamp an X onto your forehead in ink. And once you get five stamps on your forehead, you're out. Interesting. It is interesting. And then the weirdest edition I found, Chuck, was the EMS edition.
Emergency Medical Services came out in 2012. Wow. And it had categories like trauma, illness, anatomy.
Emergency Medical Services came out in 2012. Wow. And it had categories like trauma, illness, anatomy.
Emergency Medical Services came out in 2012. Wow. And it had categories like trauma, illness, anatomy.
Yeah. I'd like to see some of those questions. I couldn't find them. And you can also play free online. There's a new version that came out this year called Trivial Pursuit Infinite. It uses generative AI to come up with questions. And if you are a TV watcher, you can watch the new Trivial Pursuit game on the CW that's hosted by the lovable LeVar Burton. Oh, we love LeVar. Everyone loves LeVar.
Yeah. I'd like to see some of those questions. I couldn't find them. And you can also play free online. There's a new version that came out this year called Trivial Pursuit Infinite. It uses generative AI to come up with questions. And if you are a TV watcher, you can watch the new Trivial Pursuit game on the CW that's hosted by the lovable LeVar Burton. Oh, we love LeVar. Everyone loves LeVar.
Yeah. I'd like to see some of those questions. I couldn't find them. And you can also play free online. There's a new version that came out this year called Trivial Pursuit Infinite. It uses generative AI to come up with questions. And if you are a TV watcher, you can watch the new Trivial Pursuit game on the CW that's hosted by the lovable LeVar Burton. Oh, we love LeVar. Everyone loves LeVar.
Who doesn't? No one.
Who doesn't? No one.
Who doesn't? No one.
Can you give an example of how it didn't hold up or a general example?
Can you give an example of how it didn't hold up or a general example?
Can you give an example of how it didn't hold up or a general example?
I thought you were going to say it was like deeply sexist or something like that.
I thought you were going to say it was like deeply sexist or something like that.
I thought you were going to say it was like deeply sexist or something like that.
Yeah. Pretty impressive stuff.
Yeah. Pretty impressive stuff.
Yeah. Pretty impressive stuff.
I love these Christmas episodes, the pre-Christmas special, usually Christmas toy episode.
I love these Christmas episodes, the pre-Christmas special, usually Christmas toy episode.
I love these Christmas episodes, the pre-Christmas special, usually Christmas toy episode.
So happy holidays to all of you out there. And the next time you see us, we're going to be on that ad-free holiday special. It's coming soon. Do you have a listener mail today?
So happy holidays to all of you out there. And the next time you see us, we're going to be on that ad-free holiday special. It's coming soon. Do you have a listener mail today?
So happy holidays to all of you out there. And the next time you see us, we're going to be on that ad-free holiday special. It's coming soon. Do you have a listener mail today?
Oh, great. Well, since Chuck answered in the affirmative when I asked him if he had a listener mail, it's time for listener mail.
Oh, great. Well, since Chuck answered in the affirmative when I asked him if he had a listener mail, it's time for listener mail.
Oh, great. Well, since Chuck answered in the affirmative when I asked him if he had a listener mail, it's time for listener mail.
Oh, they're not friends anymore?
Oh, they're not friends anymore?
Oh, they're not friends anymore?
Wowee. Yeah, so good to be back in touch with Chris. Yeah, thanks a lot, Chris. Thanks for getting back in touch. I think that that's no longer parasocial. That's just social.
Wowee. Yeah, so good to be back in touch with Chris. Yeah, thanks a lot, Chris. Thanks for getting back in touch. I think that that's no longer parasocial. That's just social.
Wowee. Yeah, so good to be back in touch with Chris. Yeah, thanks a lot, Chris. Thanks for getting back in touch. I think that that's no longer parasocial. That's just social.
Well, if you want to be like Chris and remind us that we've hung out with you before and also share some pretty great information and correct us for not shouting out an independent version of something we talked about, we love that kind of stuff. You can send us an email to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.
Well, if you want to be like Chris and remind us that we've hung out with you before and also share some pretty great information and correct us for not shouting out an independent version of something we talked about, we love that kind of stuff. You can send us an email to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.
Well, if you want to be like Chris and remind us that we've hung out with you before and also share some pretty great information and correct us for not shouting out an independent version of something we talked about, we love that kind of stuff. You can send us an email to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.
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Welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too for the present moment. And this is Stuff You Should Know.
Welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too for the present moment. And this is Stuff You Should Know.
Welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too for the present moment. And this is Stuff You Should Know.
Yes, I do. It was Thomas because this episode is tugboats for Thomas.
Yes, I do. It was Thomas because this episode is tugboats for Thomas.
Yes, I do. It was Thomas because this episode is tugboats for Thomas.
Yeah, I remember when he was at the mic asking the question or making the suggestion, he kept moving around because he still had his sea legs.
Yeah, I remember when he was at the mic asking the question or making the suggestion, he kept moving around because he still had his sea legs.
Yeah, I remember when he was at the mic asking the question or making the suggestion, he kept moving around because he still had his sea legs.
So, yeah, hopefully we'll do Thomas proud because we know a little bit about tugboats now after researching them for a little while. Big shout out to our friend Dave Ruse for helping us with this. You could do worse than going to check out Ruse's podcast, Bible Time Machine. And that has nothing to do with tugboats. But let's talk about that.
So, yeah, hopefully we'll do Thomas proud because we know a little bit about tugboats now after researching them for a little while. Big shout out to our friend Dave Ruse for helping us with this. You could do worse than going to check out Ruse's podcast, Bible Time Machine. And that has nothing to do with tugboats. But let's talk about that.
So, yeah, hopefully we'll do Thomas proud because we know a little bit about tugboats now after researching them for a little while. Big shout out to our friend Dave Ruse for helping us with this. You could do worse than going to check out Ruse's podcast, Bible Time Machine. And that has nothing to do with tugboats. But let's talk about that.
1320?
1320?
1320?
Nope, not that far. Oh, 2020. But one of the things that tugboats are that makes them like the workhorses of the sea, as you could put it, is that they have really impressive power to tonnage ratios. Yeah. So the size of the tugboat, the actual weight the tugboat weighs, compared to the amount of power output its engines can create, usually in horsepower, is really lopsided. Yeah.
Nope, not that far. Oh, 2020. But one of the things that tugboats are that makes them like the workhorses of the sea, as you could put it, is that they have really impressive power to tonnage ratios. Yeah. So the size of the tugboat, the actual weight the tugboat weighs, compared to the amount of power output its engines can create, usually in horsepower, is really lopsided. Yeah.
Nope, not that far. Oh, 2020. But one of the things that tugboats are that makes them like the workhorses of the sea, as you could put it, is that they have really impressive power to tonnage ratios. Yeah. So the size of the tugboat, the actual weight the tugboat weighs, compared to the amount of power output its engines can create, usually in horsepower, is really lopsided. Yeah.
so that these fairly comparatively light boats, compared to the horsepower they create, can pull, pull, pull. And they can push, push, push, and they can do all sorts of amazing stuff, which is why they can move these enormous, huge oil tankers and shipping container ships with just the mighty might of their little hearts. You'd think I would have practiced something like that.
so that these fairly comparatively light boats, compared to the horsepower they create, can pull, pull, pull. And they can push, push, push, and they can do all sorts of amazing stuff, which is why they can move these enormous, huge oil tankers and shipping container ships with just the mighty might of their little hearts. You'd think I would have practiced something like that.
so that these fairly comparatively light boats, compared to the horsepower they create, can pull, pull, pull. And they can push, push, push, and they can do all sorts of amazing stuff, which is why they can move these enormous, huge oil tankers and shipping container ships with just the mighty might of their little hearts. You'd think I would have practiced something like that.
It would have been way better.
It would have been way better.
It would have been way better.
It's making too much sense. I've never considered myself the tugboat of the lake. Can I be doing this with my teeth? Can I be holding the rope with my teeth? Because that'd be much cooler.
It's making too much sense. I've never considered myself the tugboat of the lake. Can I be doing this with my teeth? Can I be holding the rope with my teeth? Because that'd be much cooler.
It's making too much sense. I've never considered myself the tugboat of the lake. Can I be doing this with my teeth? Can I be holding the rope with my teeth? Because that'd be much cooler.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
We'll go do some third-league trials for it and figure out the one right way to pull a pontoon in a lake.
We'll go do some third-league trials for it and figure out the one right way to pull a pontoon in a lake.
We'll go do some third-league trials for it and figure out the one right way to pull a pontoon in a lake.
They do. And I've seen that often converted to tons. And it's the same thing. The more kilonewtons you have or the more tons you have, the more pulling power, towing power, pushing power that tugboat has. So there's this one boat that Dave found called the Island Victory. At least one article called it the most powerful boat in the world.
They do. And I've seen that often converted to tons. And it's the same thing. The more kilonewtons you have or the more tons you have, the more pulling power, towing power, pushing power that tugboat has. So there's this one boat that Dave found called the Island Victory. At least one article called it the most powerful boat in the world.
They do. And I've seen that often converted to tons. And it's the same thing. The more kilonewtons you have or the more tons you have, the more pulling power, towing power, pushing power that tugboat has. So there's this one boat that Dave found called the Island Victory. At least one article called it the most powerful boat in the world.
I saw other articles that named some other shipping container vessel. But this tugboat, say it's probably the most powerful tugboat around. The Island Victory has a bollard pull of 4,680 kilonewtons, which converts to 477 tons. A typical harbor tug, which is nothing to sneeze at, has a bollard pull between 500 and 600 kilonewtons. 600 kilonewtons converts to 61 tons.
I saw other articles that named some other shipping container vessel. But this tugboat, say it's probably the most powerful tugboat around. The Island Victory has a bollard pull of 4,680 kilonewtons, which converts to 477 tons. A typical harbor tug, which is nothing to sneeze at, has a bollard pull between 500 and 600 kilonewtons. 600 kilonewtons converts to 61 tons.
I saw other articles that named some other shipping container vessel. But this tugboat, say it's probably the most powerful tugboat around. The Island Victory has a bollard pull of 4,680 kilonewtons, which converts to 477 tons. A typical harbor tug, which is nothing to sneeze at, has a bollard pull between 500 and 600 kilonewtons. 600 kilonewtons converts to 61 tons.
So this is an enormously powerful boat. And that's the whole point. They're not fast. They aren't pretty. They're cute in a really weird way. But they can generate so much power that they can push a shipping container vessel around. More importantly, if you have a really high bollard pull, the reason that this rating is even there is to find out which tug you can connect to which vessel.
So this is an enormously powerful boat. And that's the whole point. They're not fast. They aren't pretty. They're cute in a really weird way. But they can generate so much power that they can push a shipping container vessel around. More importantly, if you have a really high bollard pull, the reason that this rating is even there is to find out which tug you can connect to which vessel.
So this is an enormously powerful boat. And that's the whole point. They're not fast. They aren't pretty. They're cute in a really weird way. But they can generate so much power that they can push a shipping container vessel around. More importantly, if you have a really high bollard pull, the reason that this rating is even there is to find out which tug you can connect to which vessel.
Because if a vessel is starting to go in the wrong direction and it's about to crash into, say, a bridge… Um, the tugboat has to be able to go from zero, not moving at all in the water to pulling that boat in the opposite direction away from that bridge in a moment's notice. And it has to have that much power. And they do, they do.
Because if a vessel is starting to go in the wrong direction and it's about to crash into, say, a bridge… Um, the tugboat has to be able to go from zero, not moving at all in the water to pulling that boat in the opposite direction away from that bridge in a moment's notice. And it has to have that much power. And they do, they do.
Because if a vessel is starting to go in the wrong direction and it's about to crash into, say, a bridge… Um, the tugboat has to be able to go from zero, not moving at all in the water to pulling that boat in the opposite direction away from that bridge in a moment's notice. And it has to have that much power. And they do, they do.
Yeah, it's just what they use, like you said, when they purposely or accidentally bump up against a larger ship. You can't just have the tugboat, like, crack up. So you have a fender. They're built to bump. They are built to bump. And some tugboats aren't necessarily built with a beard. They'll have tires strung along the side to use as a bumper as well.
Yeah, it's just what they use, like you said, when they purposely or accidentally bump up against a larger ship. You can't just have the tugboat, like, crack up. So you have a fender. They're built to bump. They are built to bump. And some tugboats aren't necessarily built with a beard. They'll have tires strung along the side to use as a bumper as well.
Yeah, it's just what they use, like you said, when they purposely or accidentally bump up against a larger ship. You can't just have the tugboat, like, crack up. So you have a fender. They're built to bump. They are built to bump. And some tugboats aren't necessarily built with a beard. They'll have tires strung along the side to use as a bumper as well.
Okay, fine. So one other thing that you're going to find about tugboats that we'll talk about more in depth later is that they're extremely nimble. They're agile. They can move in a different direction very quickly.
Okay, fine. So one other thing that you're going to find about tugboats that we'll talk about more in depth later is that they're extremely nimble. They're agile. They can move in a different direction very quickly.
Okay, fine. So one other thing that you're going to find about tugboats that we'll talk about more in depth later is that they're extremely nimble. They're agile. They can move in a different direction very quickly.
And that is a really important thing, too, because one of the big jobs that the tugboat plays in, say, like a shipping lane, like a port, is to help ships avoid other ships coming in or out. So they have to be able to move, not just pull a ship very easily, but they have to be able to move quickly and move that ship out of the way of, say, like another ship.
And that is a really important thing, too, because one of the big jobs that the tugboat plays in, say, like a shipping lane, like a port, is to help ships avoid other ships coming in or out. So they have to be able to move, not just pull a ship very easily, but they have to be able to move quickly and move that ship out of the way of, say, like another ship.
And that is a really important thing, too, because one of the big jobs that the tugboat plays in, say, like a shipping lane, like a port, is to help ships avoid other ships coming in or out. So they have to be able to move, not just pull a ship very easily, but they have to be able to move quickly and move that ship out of the way of, say, like another ship.
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Every holiday season starts with the best of intentions. Bake that homemade pie. Get all your holiday shopping done early. But then, life gets in the way. But don't feel bad. It happens to everyone. And luckily, you've got DoorDash.
Every holiday season starts with the best of intentions. Bake that homemade pie. Get all your holiday shopping done early. But then, life gets in the way. But don't feel bad. It happens to everyone. And luckily, you've got DoorDash.
Every holiday season starts with the best of intentions. Bake that homemade pie. Get all your holiday shopping done early. But then, life gets in the way. But don't feel bad. It happens to everyone. And luckily, you've got DoorDash.
Yep, and now through the 24th, DoorDash has big deals running for the holidays from Best Buy, Ulta Beauty, Wingstop, Aldi, and more. You can save money and the holidays all with DoorDash. Whether you tell people is up to you.
Yep, and now through the 24th, DoorDash has big deals running for the holidays from Best Buy, Ulta Beauty, Wingstop, Aldi, and more. You can save money and the holidays all with DoorDash. Whether you tell people is up to you.
Yep, and now through the 24th, DoorDash has big deals running for the holidays from Best Buy, Ulta Beauty, Wingstop, Aldi, and more. You can save money and the holidays all with DoorDash. Whether you tell people is up to you.
That's right. There was another problem, too, even for a ship that was nimble enough to kind of navigate its way into port, say like the mouth of a river in a harbor or something, right? Once it got in there, it had to wait for the wind to whip up again to set sail once more. And this was not something that happened every hour on the hour, even twice a day like the tide.
That's right. There was another problem, too, even for a ship that was nimble enough to kind of navigate its way into port, say like the mouth of a river in a harbor or something, right? Once it got in there, it had to wait for the wind to whip up again to set sail once more. And this was not something that happened every hour on the hour, even twice a day like the tide.
That's right. There was another problem, too, even for a ship that was nimble enough to kind of navigate its way into port, say like the mouth of a river in a harbor or something, right? Once it got in there, it had to wait for the wind to whip up again to set sail once more. And this was not something that happened every hour on the hour, even twice a day like the tide.
Sometimes you would have to wait for days or weeks for the right wind to come up that you could catch and ship back out to sea again. Also not at all efficient. So there was like a real need for tugboats to be invented. But what's nuts is tugboats were invented and then ignored for decades.
Sometimes you would have to wait for days or weeks for the right wind to come up that you could catch and ship back out to sea again. Also not at all efficient. So there was like a real need for tugboats to be invented. But what's nuts is tugboats were invented and then ignored for decades.
Sometimes you would have to wait for days or weeks for the right wind to come up that you could catch and ship back out to sea again. Also not at all efficient. So there was like a real need for tugboats to be invented. But what's nuts is tugboats were invented and then ignored for decades.
And then finally, the guy who invented them, who was just totally made fun of, as we'll see, for inventing tugboats, was vindicated. But I think he was dead already.
And then finally, the guy who invented them, who was just totally made fun of, as we'll see, for inventing tugboats, was vindicated. But I think he was dead already.
And then finally, the guy who invented them, who was just totally made fun of, as we'll see, for inventing tugboats, was vindicated. But I think he was dead already.
Yeah. Not only that, the people in his hometown of Gloucester, they wrote a song about him. They wrote a song. They wrote like they thought this guy was so terrible and just such a lousy inventor that there was a song. I'm guessing people would sing in pubs.
Yeah. Not only that, the people in his hometown of Gloucester, they wrote a song about him. They wrote a song. They wrote like they thought this guy was so terrible and just such a lousy inventor that there was a song. I'm guessing people would sing in pubs.
Yeah. Not only that, the people in his hometown of Gloucester, they wrote a song about him. They wrote a song. They wrote like they thought this guy was so terrible and just such a lousy inventor that there was a song. I'm guessing people would sing in pubs.
About him specifically, his name's in the song. Imagine sitting there nursing like you're mead while everybody around you is singing that song about you. You're not going to try? Whip up a melody. Oh, oh. Jonathan Holes with his patent skulls invented a machine to go against the wind and stream. You should finish.
About him specifically, his name's in the song. Imagine sitting there nursing like you're mead while everybody around you is singing that song about you. You're not going to try? Whip up a melody. Oh, oh. Jonathan Holes with his patent skulls invented a machine to go against the wind and stream. You should finish.
About him specifically, his name's in the song. Imagine sitting there nursing like you're mead while everybody around you is singing that song about you. You're not going to try? Whip up a melody. Oh, oh. Jonathan Holes with his patent skulls invented a machine to go against the wind and stream. You should finish.
You went with the Gilbert and Sullivan version.
You went with the Gilbert and Sullivan version.
You went with the Gilbert and Sullivan version.
They're like, get out of Gloucester.
They're like, get out of Gloucester.
They're like, get out of Gloucester.
So, yeah, Hulls was definitely ahead of his time, but it would be 60 years before the first steam powered tugboats. His invention were actually put into good use and they were deployed in Scotland and Yeah. And as we'll see, actually, Scotland was where the tugboat got its name. At the time, I'm not sure what they called them. Maybe still helper vessels. I don't know.
So, yeah, Hulls was definitely ahead of his time, but it would be 60 years before the first steam powered tugboats. His invention were actually put into good use and they were deployed in Scotland and Yeah. And as we'll see, actually, Scotland was where the tugboat got its name. At the time, I'm not sure what they called them. Maybe still helper vessels. I don't know.
So, yeah, Hulls was definitely ahead of his time, but it would be 60 years before the first steam powered tugboats. His invention were actually put into good use and they were deployed in Scotland and Yeah. And as we'll see, actually, Scotland was where the tugboat got its name. At the time, I'm not sure what they called them. Maybe still helper vessels. I don't know.
But one of the first things they did was to start pulling cargo along canals. Because at the time, if you wanted to move cargo easily over land, you did it over water that was cut into land. And you would do it with a donkey pulling your cargo along the shore. The donkey was walking on the shore with the line going from the donkey. to a little barge that was being pulled down a water-filled canal.
But one of the first things they did was to start pulling cargo along canals. Because at the time, if you wanted to move cargo easily over land, you did it over water that was cut into land. And you would do it with a donkey pulling your cargo along the shore. The donkey was walking on the shore with the line going from the donkey. to a little barge that was being pulled down a water-filled canal.
But one of the first things they did was to start pulling cargo along canals. Because at the time, if you wanted to move cargo easily over land, you did it over water that was cut into land. And you would do it with a donkey pulling your cargo along the shore. The donkey was walking on the shore with the line going from the donkey. to a little barge that was being pulled down a water-filled canal.
That was the state of the art at the time.
That was the state of the art at the time.
That was the state of the art at the time.
Yeah. Toledo has something called the Canal Experience or Historic Canal Experience. There's some canals running through part of the town from the early 19th century that you can walk along and you're like, wow, this is an old donkey path, huh?
Yeah. Toledo has something called the Canal Experience or Historic Canal Experience. There's some canals running through part of the town from the early 19th century that you can walk along and you're like, wow, this is an old donkey path, huh?
Yeah. Toledo has something called the Canal Experience or Historic Canal Experience. There's some canals running through part of the town from the early 19th century that you can walk along and you're like, wow, this is an old donkey path, huh?
Yeah. Oh, it's a donkey. Yeah.
Yeah. Oh, it's a donkey. Yeah.
Yeah. Oh, it's a donkey. Yeah.
Yeah, but still, like, it was working. That was the key.
Yeah, but still, like, it was working. That was the key.
Yeah, but still, like, it was working. That was the key.
Right. And you can bet that every donkey in Scotland was like, whew, thank God they invented these things, right? Yeah, probably. So there was also, as we talked about, one of the big problems with sailboats as shipping vessels was that they had trouble getting in and out of harbors. They had trouble navigating. They had to wait for the wind.
Right. And you can bet that every donkey in Scotland was like, whew, thank God they invented these things, right? Yeah, probably. So there was also, as we talked about, one of the big problems with sailboats as shipping vessels was that they had trouble getting in and out of harbors. They had trouble navigating. They had to wait for the wind.
Right. And you can bet that every donkey in Scotland was like, whew, thank God they invented these things, right? Yeah, probably. So there was also, as we talked about, one of the big problems with sailboats as shipping vessels was that they had trouble getting in and out of harbors. They had trouble navigating. They had to wait for the wind.
So very quickly, it seemed kind of obvious that you could, if you could get one of these boats into port, into harbor, which you could use a tugboat for, you could also pull it up river. It wouldn't have to navigate any longer because you could just pull it by a helper vessel into some of the cities that were not located on the coast, but they were located on a river.
So very quickly, it seemed kind of obvious that you could, if you could get one of these boats into port, into harbor, which you could use a tugboat for, you could also pull it up river. It wouldn't have to navigate any longer because you could just pull it by a helper vessel into some of the cities that were not located on the coast, but they were located on a river.
So very quickly, it seemed kind of obvious that you could, if you could get one of these boats into port, into harbor, which you could use a tugboat for, you could also pull it up river. It wouldn't have to navigate any longer because you could just pull it by a helper vessel into some of the cities that were not located on the coast, but they were located on a river.
One example I can think of is London and the Thames.
One example I can think of is London and the Thames.
One example I can think of is London and the Thames.
So, like I said, it was in Scotland that tugboats got their name back in 1817 in Dumberton. I think I'm saying that right.
So, like I said, it was in Scotland that tugboats got their name back in 1817 in Dumberton. I think I'm saying that right.
So, like I said, it was in Scotland that tugboats got their name back in 1817 in Dumberton. I think I'm saying that right.
Oh, well, how would you say it?
Oh, well, how would you say it?
Oh, well, how would you say it?
No, it's got to be Dumberton.
No, it's got to be Dumberton.
No, it's got to be Dumberton.
Okay. Well, we'll go with one of those two. How about that? Sure. Somebody built a steamship, a tugboat. They named tug. They weren't called tugboats until this time. And I guess that name stuck because it also makes sense practically. You're tugging a boat behind you. So that from henceforth on, they were known as tugboats.
Okay. Well, we'll go with one of those two. How about that? Sure. Somebody built a steamship, a tugboat. They named tug. They weren't called tugboats until this time. And I guess that name stuck because it also makes sense practically. You're tugging a boat behind you. So that from henceforth on, they were known as tugboats.
Okay. Well, we'll go with one of those two. How about that? Sure. Somebody built a steamship, a tugboat. They named tug. They weren't called tugboats until this time. And I guess that name stuck because it also makes sense practically. You're tugging a boat behind you. So that from henceforth on, they were known as tugboats.
It's a little anachronistic.
It's a little anachronistic.
It's a little anachronistic.
Yeah. Remember that Simpsons where Lenny goes little kid Lenny's like, oh, I just logged on to my Internet because he pooped his pants out of he pooped his bathing suit with the little Internet. So he said he logged on to his Internet. Oh, that's so good.
Yeah. Remember that Simpsons where Lenny goes little kid Lenny's like, oh, I just logged on to my Internet because he pooped his pants out of he pooped his bathing suit with the little Internet. So he said he logged on to his Internet. Oh, that's so good.
Yeah. Remember that Simpsons where Lenny goes little kid Lenny's like, oh, I just logged on to my Internet because he pooped his pants out of he pooped his bathing suit with the little Internet. So he said he logged on to his Internet. Oh, that's so good.
Right. And then the owners were like, well, we don't go on these boats. We just own them. So sure. I mean, that's fine. They can blow up. But yes, they were viewed skeptically, I think. Right. Like it was it was not just a done deal that these things were like going to save the industry or shipping.
Right. And then the owners were like, well, we don't go on these boats. We just own them. So sure. I mean, that's fine. They can blow up. But yes, they were viewed skeptically, I think. Right. Like it was it was not just a done deal that these things were like going to save the industry or shipping.
Right. And then the owners were like, well, we don't go on these boats. We just own them. So sure. I mean, that's fine. They can blow up. But yes, they were viewed skeptically, I think. Right. Like it was it was not just a done deal that these things were like going to save the industry or shipping.
But there was a proving ground. What ended up being a proving ground on the Tyne River that connected Newcastle to the North Sea. They were facing a problem, right? They had these barges that were called colliers, and they were sailboats, but they were coal movers because Newcastle was a huge coal producer. And these colliers could do a lot of damage because they were hard to navigate.
But there was a proving ground. What ended up being a proving ground on the Tyne River that connected Newcastle to the North Sea. They were facing a problem, right? They had these barges that were called colliers, and they were sailboats, but they were coal movers because Newcastle was a huge coal producer. And these colliers could do a lot of damage because they were hard to navigate.
But there was a proving ground. What ended up being a proving ground on the Tyne River that connected Newcastle to the North Sea. They were facing a problem, right? They had these barges that were called colliers, and they were sailboats, but they were coal movers because Newcastle was a huge coal producer. And these colliers could do a lot of damage because they were hard to navigate.
They had all the same problems that any sailing vessel had. So there was a guy named Joseph Price who in 1818 was like, I think I've got a solution to this. I'm going to buy some of these steamships that they're now being called tugboats. And I'm going to have them pull these colliers, these coal ships up and down the Tyne. And I think it's going to revolutionize shipping.
They had all the same problems that any sailing vessel had. So there was a guy named Joseph Price who in 1818 was like, I think I've got a solution to this. I'm going to buy some of these steamships that they're now being called tugboats. And I'm going to have them pull these colliers, these coal ships up and down the Tyne. And I think it's going to revolutionize shipping.
They had all the same problems that any sailing vessel had. So there was a guy named Joseph Price who in 1818 was like, I think I've got a solution to this. I'm going to buy some of these steamships that they're now being called tugboats. And I'm going to have them pull these colliers, these coal ships up and down the Tyne. And I think it's going to revolutionize shipping.
And Joseph Price was right on the money. The price was right.
And Joseph Price was right on the money. The price was right.
And Joseph Price was right on the money. The price was right.
Right. And these new towns that were getting coal for the first time were able to give up having to burn dried donkey poop that they scraped up off the donkey trails along the canals. It was huge for them.
Right. And these new towns that were getting coal for the first time were able to give up having to burn dried donkey poop that they scraped up off the donkey trails along the canals. It was huge for them.
Right. And these new towns that were getting coal for the first time were able to give up having to burn dried donkey poop that they scraped up off the donkey trails along the canals. It was huge for them.
So, yeah, Joseph Price proved to the world, like, no, these things are extraordinarily valuable, so much so that they're going to completely change shipping from this point on. And they definitely have. And they're still just as useful as ever. And they made a name for themselves so much that when the Royal Navy purchased their first steamships of any kind, they were tugboats.
So, yeah, Joseph Price proved to the world, like, no, these things are extraordinarily valuable, so much so that they're going to completely change shipping from this point on. And they definitely have. And they're still just as useful as ever. And they made a name for themselves so much that when the Royal Navy purchased their first steamships of any kind, they were tugboats.
So, yeah, Joseph Price proved to the world, like, no, these things are extraordinarily valuable, so much so that they're going to completely change shipping from this point on. And they definitely have. And they're still just as useful as ever. And they made a name for themselves so much that when the Royal Navy purchased their first steamships of any kind, they were tugboats.
The Comet and the Monkey. Comet and Monkey. And I can't decide whether it's a band name or a cartoon name.
The Comet and the Monkey. Comet and Monkey. And I can't decide whether it's a band name or a cartoon name.
The Comet and the Monkey. Comet and Monkey. And I can't decide whether it's a band name or a cartoon name.
Comet and Monkey.
Comet and Monkey.
Comet and Monkey.
So, yeah, they definitely proved their worth pretty early on. I mean, this is 1818, and the first ones were used shortly before that, right?
So, yeah, they definitely proved their worth pretty early on. I mean, this is 1818, and the first ones were used shortly before that, right?
So, yeah, they definitely proved their worth pretty early on. I mean, this is 1818, and the first ones were used shortly before that, right?
Sure. That's where they're most famous.
Sure. That's where they're most famous.
Sure. That's where they're most famous.
It's the exact same thing because those two paddle wheels were able to be moved independent of one another. And once you can do that, yes, you just start doing donuts to show off in the harbor, you know? Yeah. So the 19th century came and went and those paddle wheel tugs were replaced with screw propellers, which is another term for a propeller like you see on a ship.
It's the exact same thing because those two paddle wheels were able to be moved independent of one another. And once you can do that, yes, you just start doing donuts to show off in the harbor, you know? Yeah. So the 19th century came and went and those paddle wheel tugs were replaced with screw propellers, which is another term for a propeller like you see on a ship.
It's the exact same thing because those two paddle wheels were able to be moved independent of one another. And once you can do that, yes, you just start doing donuts to show off in the harbor, you know? Yeah. So the 19th century came and went and those paddle wheel tugs were replaced with screw propellers, which is another term for a propeller like you see on a ship.
Like that's just called a screw propeller. So like any ship, they were propelled by propellers. And then diesel engines came along, and that's when everything really kind of changed. Because when you have a diesel engine, you can get some amazing horsepower out of it, way more than steam. It's also less dangerous. I think we talked about all this in our Rudolph diesel episode.
Like that's just called a screw propeller. So like any ship, they were propelled by propellers. And then diesel engines came along, and that's when everything really kind of changed. Because when you have a diesel engine, you can get some amazing horsepower out of it, way more than steam. It's also less dangerous. I think we talked about all this in our Rudolph diesel episode.
Like that's just called a screw propeller. So like any ship, they were propelled by propellers. And then diesel engines came along, and that's when everything really kind of changed. Because when you have a diesel engine, you can get some amazing horsepower out of it, way more than steam. It's also less dangerous. I think we talked about all this in our Rudolph diesel episode.
And that's when the tugboats became, started to become the tugboats that we think of today. Okay.
And that's when the tugboats became, started to become the tugboats that we think of today. Okay.
And that's when the tugboats became, started to become the tugboats that we think of today. Okay.
You bet.
You bet.
You bet.
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Brought to you by the Capital One Venture X Card. Earn unlimited 2X miles on everything you buy and turn everyday purchases into extraordinary trips. Plus, receive premium travel benefits like access to over 1,300 airport lounges and a $300 annual credit for bookings through Capital One Travel. Unlock a whole new world of travel with the Capital One Venture X Card. What's in your wallet?
Brought to you by the Capital One Venture X Card. Earn unlimited 2X miles on everything you buy and turn everyday purchases into extraordinary trips. Plus, receive premium travel benefits like access to over 1,300 airport lounges and a $300 annual credit for bookings through Capital One Travel. Unlock a whole new world of travel with the Capital One Venture X Card. What's in your wallet?
Terms apply. Lounge access is subject to change. See CapitalOne.com for details. Every holiday season starts with the best of intentions. Bake that homemade pie. Get all your holiday shopping done early. But then, life gets in the way. But don't feel bad. It happens to everyone. And luckily, you've got DoorDash.
Terms apply. Lounge access is subject to change. See CapitalOne.com for details. Every holiday season starts with the best of intentions. Bake that homemade pie. Get all your holiday shopping done early. But then, life gets in the way. But don't feel bad. It happens to everyone. And luckily, you've got DoorDash.
Terms apply. Lounge access is subject to change. See CapitalOne.com for details. Every holiday season starts with the best of intentions. Bake that homemade pie. Get all your holiday shopping done early. But then, life gets in the way. But don't feel bad. It happens to everyone. And luckily, you've got DoorDash.
Yep, and now through the 24th, DoorDash has big deals running for the holidays from Best Buy, Ulta Beauty, Wingstop, Aldi, and more. You can save money and the holidays all with DoorDash. Whether you tell people is up to you.
Yep, and now through the 24th, DoorDash has big deals running for the holidays from Best Buy, Ulta Beauty, Wingstop, Aldi, and more. You can save money and the holidays all with DoorDash. Whether you tell people is up to you.
Yep, and now through the 24th, DoorDash has big deals running for the holidays from Best Buy, Ulta Beauty, Wingstop, Aldi, and more. You can save money and the holidays all with DoorDash. Whether you tell people is up to you.
So you mentioned tugboat strike, right?
So you mentioned tugboat strike, right?
So you mentioned tugboat strike, right?
Oh, well, there's a tugboat strike we have to talk about that really kind of demonstrates how important tugboats made themselves over the years. In New York Harbor in 1946, every single tugboat operator, there were 300 of them in the harbor at the time. They all went on strike.
Oh, well, there's a tugboat strike we have to talk about that really kind of demonstrates how important tugboats made themselves over the years. In New York Harbor in 1946, every single tugboat operator, there were 300 of them in the harbor at the time. They all went on strike.
Oh, well, there's a tugboat strike we have to talk about that really kind of demonstrates how important tugboats made themselves over the years. In New York Harbor in 1946, every single tugboat operator, there were 300 of them in the harbor at the time. They all went on strike.
And this was very quickly, it became evident how essential tugboats were for everything in New York, because there was coal coming from Lake Erie through the Erie Canal to the Hudson down to the harbor. And it would be spread all throughout Manhattan and all throughout New York. Food shipments came in by barge. Garbage went out by barge. New York operated on barges.
And this was very quickly, it became evident how essential tugboats were for everything in New York, because there was coal coming from Lake Erie through the Erie Canal to the Hudson down to the harbor. And it would be spread all throughout Manhattan and all throughout New York. Food shipments came in by barge. Garbage went out by barge. New York operated on barges.
And this was very quickly, it became evident how essential tugboats were for everything in New York, because there was coal coming from Lake Erie through the Erie Canal to the Hudson down to the harbor. And it would be spread all throughout Manhattan and all throughout New York. Food shipments came in by barge. Garbage went out by barge. New York operated on barges.
And if you're using barges, you need a tugboat to tow or push those barges. So when the tugboat stopped working, New York stopped working. And within 12 days, the tugboat operators got their demands fulfilled. Wow. Which turns out to have just been nicer hats from what I read.
And if you're using barges, you need a tugboat to tow or push those barges. So when the tugboat stopped working, New York stopped working. And within 12 days, the tugboat operators got their demands fulfilled. Wow. Which turns out to have just been nicer hats from what I read.
And if you're using barges, you need a tugboat to tow or push those barges. So when the tugboat stopped working, New York stopped working. And within 12 days, the tugboat operators got their demands fulfilled. Wow. Which turns out to have just been nicer hats from what I read.
Right. I said float, by the way, but gloat works even better.
Right. I said float, by the way, but gloat works even better.
Right. I said float, by the way, but gloat works even better.
Yeah. They were gloating while they were floating. Oh, okay. So there were some things that changed. Stuff you would not at all connect to why tugboats became less vital over the years. Still incredibly important. And you can make a case that world shipping would essentially just stop if tugboats stopped.
Yeah. They were gloating while they were floating. Oh, okay. So there were some things that changed. Stuff you would not at all connect to why tugboats became less vital over the years. Still incredibly important. And you can make a case that world shipping would essentially just stop if tugboats stopped.
Yeah. They were gloating while they were floating. Oh, okay. So there were some things that changed. Stuff you would not at all connect to why tugboats became less vital over the years. Still incredibly important. And you can make a case that world shipping would essentially just stop if tugboats stopped.
So they're really important, but just not in exactly the same ways as they were before, because we started getting our energy over things like pipelines. We started using things that weren't coal. Trucking and shipping containers became a much bigger thing than, say, barges over the years. So with each of those things, the tugboat became... Less and less able to do what it did in 1946.
So they're really important, but just not in exactly the same ways as they were before, because we started getting our energy over things like pipelines. We started using things that weren't coal. Trucking and shipping containers became a much bigger thing than, say, barges over the years. So with each of those things, the tugboat became... Less and less able to do what it did in 1946.
So they're really important, but just not in exactly the same ways as they were before, because we started getting our energy over things like pipelines. We started using things that weren't coal. Trucking and shipping containers became a much bigger thing than, say, barges over the years. So with each of those things, the tugboat became... Less and less able to do what it did in 1946.
And yet it's still so vital that you just can't do anything without them.
And yet it's still so vital that you just can't do anything without them.
And yet it's still so vital that you just can't do anything without them.
I saw that there's one called the E-Wolf, right?
I saw that there's one called the E-Wolf, right?
I saw that there's one called the E-Wolf, right?
It is awesome, and let's talk about why. Here's why, Chuck. Remember we said that these things generate crazy amounts of horsepower? Yes. Some harbor tugs are ocean-going tugs. generate 27,000 plus horsepower. Yeah. It's like having 27,000 horses just running at the back of this thing, like kicking their legs all at once. Right. Yeah.
It is awesome, and let's talk about why. Here's why, Chuck. Remember we said that these things generate crazy amounts of horsepower? Yes. Some harbor tugs are ocean-going tugs. generate 27,000 plus horsepower. Yeah. It's like having 27,000 horses just running at the back of this thing, like kicking their legs all at once. Right. Yeah.
It is awesome, and let's talk about why. Here's why, Chuck. Remember we said that these things generate crazy amounts of horsepower? Yes. Some harbor tugs are ocean-going tugs. generate 27,000 plus horsepower. Yeah. It's like having 27,000 horses just running at the back of this thing, like kicking their legs all at once. Right. Yeah.
And to do that, you, um, use a lot of fuel, a ton of diesel fuel. Um, Some of these boats can carry way more than they need in a day, like 30,000 gallons of diesel. But I saw that the average harbor tug, which is working almost constantly, will use about 3,000 gallons of diesel fuel a day. And that is a lot of fuel to use, right? So it's using this non-renewable resource.
And to do that, you, um, use a lot of fuel, a ton of diesel fuel. Um, Some of these boats can carry way more than they need in a day, like 30,000 gallons of diesel. But I saw that the average harbor tug, which is working almost constantly, will use about 3,000 gallons of diesel fuel a day. And that is a lot of fuel to use, right? So it's using this non-renewable resource.
And to do that, you, um, use a lot of fuel, a ton of diesel fuel. Um, Some of these boats can carry way more than they need in a day, like 30,000 gallons of diesel. But I saw that the average harbor tug, which is working almost constantly, will use about 3,000 gallons of diesel fuel a day. And that is a lot of fuel to use, right? So it's using this non-renewable resource.
It's also putting out crazy amounts of diesel emissions.
It's also putting out crazy amounts of diesel emissions.
It's also putting out crazy amounts of diesel emissions.
And that's just one tugboat using 3000 gallons of diesel a day.
And that's just one tugboat using 3000 gallons of diesel a day.
And that's just one tugboat using 3000 gallons of diesel a day.
The reason also I was like, why do they carry so much more than they need? Because doesn't that make the tugboat heavier and therefore you have to use more fuel to get more horsepower out of it?
The reason also I was like, why do they carry so much more than they need? Because doesn't that make the tugboat heavier and therefore you have to use more fuel to get more horsepower out of it?
The reason also I was like, why do they carry so much more than they need? Because doesn't that make the tugboat heavier and therefore you have to use more fuel to get more horsepower out of it?
And the reason that I came up with that I found was that time is of such value in a harbor at a port that it's more costly to stop what you're doing and go refuel than it is to carry around all that extra fuel. They have those capacities so that they take way longer in between refuelings. That's the point. That's how crazy important time is in ports. Yeah.
And the reason that I came up with that I found was that time is of such value in a harbor at a port that it's more costly to stop what you're doing and go refuel than it is to carry around all that extra fuel. They have those capacities so that they take way longer in between refuelings. That's the point. That's how crazy important time is in ports. Yeah.
And the reason that I came up with that I found was that time is of such value in a harbor at a port that it's more costly to stop what you're doing and go refuel than it is to carry around all that extra fuel. They have those capacities so that they take way longer in between refuelings. That's the point. That's how crazy important time is in ports. Yeah.
That's the motto.
That's the motto.
That's the motto.
I never thought that.
I never thought that.
I never thought that.
Yeah, isn't that amazing?
Yeah, isn't that amazing?
Yeah, isn't that amazing?
I also read about something called a tractor tug, which has basically two outboard motors, like those two side paddle wheels. And so you can move them independently. And they have a lot of power, too, just not as much as the azimuth, I think. But they're controlled by two joysticks. So it's hard enough. Just think about using one. Imagine using two to move a tugboat around like a huge ship.
I also read about something called a tractor tug, which has basically two outboard motors, like those two side paddle wheels. And so you can move them independently. And they have a lot of power, too, just not as much as the azimuth, I think. But they're controlled by two joysticks. So it's hard enough. Just think about using one. Imagine using two to move a tugboat around like a huge ship.
I also read about something called a tractor tug, which has basically two outboard motors, like those two side paddle wheels. And so you can move them independently. And they have a lot of power, too, just not as much as the azimuth, I think. But they're controlled by two joysticks. So it's hard enough. Just think about using one. Imagine using two to move a tugboat around like a huge ship.
that you're trying not to knock into other ships. It's just, I can't, it's got to be one of the more stressful jobs around piling a tugboat, right?
that you're trying not to knock into other ships. It's just, I can't, it's got to be one of the more stressful jobs around piling a tugboat, right?
that you're trying not to knock into other ships. It's just, I can't, it's got to be one of the more stressful jobs around piling a tugboat, right?
We'll have to ask Thomas.
We'll have to ask Thomas.
We'll have to ask Thomas.
uh that is gumming up the works um you're gonna send a tugboat in there to get those things out of there so we yeah we talked about that um the ship the ever given which uh blocked the suez canal for i think weeks which is a huge dent in global shipping right we talked about that in detail and i could not for the life of me remember what episode that was in do you
uh that is gumming up the works um you're gonna send a tugboat in there to get those things out of there so we yeah we talked about that um the ship the ever given which uh blocked the suez canal for i think weeks which is a huge dent in global shipping right we talked about that in detail and i could not for the life of me remember what episode that was in do you
uh that is gumming up the works um you're gonna send a tugboat in there to get those things out of there so we yeah we talked about that um the ship the ever given which uh blocked the suez canal for i think weeks which is a huge dent in global shipping right we talked about that in detail and i could not for the life of me remember what episode that was in do you
If we did, we didn't name it that.
If we did, we didn't name it that.
If we did, we didn't name it that.
I don't remember doing any canal episode.
I don't remember doing any canal episode.
I don't remember doing any canal episode.
I don't think so.
I don't think so.
I don't think so.
I think we just earlier talking about donkey paths and stuff did our canal episode. Hmm. Wait, wait, wait. I guess that's possible. We might have done one that included like the Panama Canal. Yes, I'll bet it was in the Panama Canal episode. I think we did that one.
I think we just earlier talking about donkey paths and stuff did our canal episode. Hmm. Wait, wait, wait. I guess that's possible. We might have done one that included like the Panama Canal. Yes, I'll bet it was in the Panama Canal episode. I think we did that one.
I think we just earlier talking about donkey paths and stuff did our canal episode. Hmm. Wait, wait, wait. I guess that's possible. We might have done one that included like the Panama Canal. Yes, I'll bet it was in the Panama Canal episode. I think we did that one.
Okay, there you go.
Okay, there you go.
Okay, there you go.
We did. A little different, but yeah. Also, by the way, the Navy just unveiled a whole new group of search and rescue ships. They're called Navajo-class tugboats, and they're pretty cool looking.
We did. A little different, but yeah. Also, by the way, the Navy just unveiled a whole new group of search and rescue ships. They're called Navajo-class tugboats, and they're pretty cool looking.
We did. A little different, but yeah. Also, by the way, the Navy just unveiled a whole new group of search and rescue ships. They're called Navajo-class tugboats, and they're pretty cool looking.
Yeah, they're called FIFIs. Cute. Either FIFI or FIFI. I've only seen it spelled out.
Yeah, they're called FIFIs. Cute. Either FIFI or FIFI. I've only seen it spelled out.
Yeah, they're called FIFIs. Cute. Either FIFI or FIFI. I've only seen it spelled out.
FIFI would be weird. Yeah, FIFI is not weird in the sea. Well, it's...
FIFI would be weird. Yeah, FIFI is not weird in the sea. Well, it's...
FIFI would be weird. Yeah, FIFI is not weird in the sea. Well, it's...
Let's try this out. Arrgh, look at that Fifi. Arrgh, look at that Fifi. I think Fifi wins the day. OK. Yeah. So what else?
Let's try this out. Arrgh, look at that Fifi. Arrgh, look at that Fifi. I think Fifi wins the day. OK. Yeah. So what else?
Let's try this out. Arrgh, look at that Fifi. Arrgh, look at that Fifi. I think Fifi wins the day. OK. Yeah. So what else?
Right. A tugboat just goes in between two people struggling to find something to talk about. And now all of a sudden they can talk about the tugboat that just went in between.
Right. A tugboat just goes in between two people struggling to find something to talk about. And now all of a sudden they can talk about the tugboat that just went in between.
Right. A tugboat just goes in between two people struggling to find something to talk about. And now all of a sudden they can talk about the tugboat that just went in between.
I hate this question so much.
I hate this question so much.
I hate this question so much.
There's also anchor handling. There's actually special tugboats called anchor handling tugs, appropriately enough. And the anchors they're talking about are oil platform tankers. And these are ocean-going tugs, the ones that carry 100,000 gallons of diesel fuel because they're out to sea for indefinite periods of time. And the anchors that they're pulling around are massive.
There's also anchor handling. There's actually special tugboats called anchor handling tugs, appropriately enough. And the anchors they're talking about are oil platform tankers. And these are ocean-going tugs, the ones that carry 100,000 gallons of diesel fuel because they're out to sea for indefinite periods of time. And the anchors that they're pulling around are massive.
There's also anchor handling. There's actually special tugboats called anchor handling tugs, appropriately enough. And the anchors they're talking about are oil platform tankers. And these are ocean-going tugs, the ones that carry 100,000 gallons of diesel fuel because they're out to sea for indefinite periods of time. And the anchors that they're pulling around are massive.
They're like keeping oil rigs out in the open ocean from floating away. So obviously they're really big anchors. But it's hard to get across how big they are unless you go look up photos of them. Try to find a photo of a human being standing or working near an oil rig anchor. And it'll really kind of drive home what these tugboats are pulling around. Makes it even more impressive. Yeah.
They're like keeping oil rigs out in the open ocean from floating away. So obviously they're really big anchors. But it's hard to get across how big they are unless you go look up photos of them. Try to find a photo of a human being standing or working near an oil rig anchor. And it'll really kind of drive home what these tugboats are pulling around. Makes it even more impressive. Yeah.
They're like keeping oil rigs out in the open ocean from floating away. So obviously they're really big anchors. But it's hard to get across how big they are unless you go look up photos of them. Try to find a photo of a human being standing or working near an oil rig anchor. And it'll really kind of drive home what these tugboats are pulling around. Makes it even more impressive. Yeah.
Yeah, I was reading an LA Times article about, remember the shipping shutdown, the cargo container backup in LA and Long Beach at the pandemic that just killed everything. The writer went out on a tugboat and he was just kind of chronicling like a morning in the life of this tugboat.
Yeah, I was reading an LA Times article about, remember the shipping shutdown, the cargo container backup in LA and Long Beach at the pandemic that just killed everything. The writer went out on a tugboat and he was just kind of chronicling like a morning in the life of this tugboat.
Yeah, I was reading an LA Times article about, remember the shipping shutdown, the cargo container backup in LA and Long Beach at the pandemic that just killed everything. The writer went out on a tugboat and he was just kind of chronicling like a morning in the life of this tugboat.
And they were talking about how recently two deckhands, one had been injured and one had been killed by a line tightening and pressing them up against the side of the tugboat. So- Oh, like Jaws. Yeah, exactly. But killed them. Yeah. Yeah.
And they were talking about how recently two deckhands, one had been injured and one had been killed by a line tightening and pressing them up against the side of the tugboat. So- Oh, like Jaws. Yeah, exactly. But killed them. Yeah. Yeah.
And they were talking about how recently two deckhands, one had been injured and one had been killed by a line tightening and pressing them up against the side of the tugboat. So- Oh, like Jaws. Yeah, exactly. But killed them. Yeah. Yeah.
So it was a I mean, you can just imagine like this is a three inch thick rope that just suddenly is, you know, thousands of kilonewtons pressing you against a metal, a big piece of metal, which is the inside of the ship. That's not it. It's not the place that you want to be. So it is being a deckhand, which is one of the jobs on the tugboat, is very dangerous. And as we'll see later.
So it was a I mean, you can just imagine like this is a three inch thick rope that just suddenly is, you know, thousands of kilonewtons pressing you against a metal, a big piece of metal, which is the inside of the ship. That's not it. It's not the place that you want to be. So it is being a deckhand, which is one of the jobs on the tugboat, is very dangerous. And as we'll see later.
So it was a I mean, you can just imagine like this is a three inch thick rope that just suddenly is, you know, thousands of kilonewtons pressing you against a metal, a big piece of metal, which is the inside of the ship. That's not it. It's not the place that you want to be. So it is being a deckhand, which is one of the jobs on the tugboat, is very dangerous. And as we'll see later.
Kind of the job you want to work your way up out of, I think.
Kind of the job you want to work your way up out of, I think.
Kind of the job you want to work your way up out of, I think.
That is too short. I mean, you're like, oh, six hour shift. That's not bad. But then you have to eat and sleep in the next six hours. That's yeah. I don't know why they do it like that. It seems like you would wear your crew out really fast with that schedule.
That is too short. I mean, you're like, oh, six hour shift. That's not bad. But then you have to eat and sleep in the next six hours. That's yeah. I don't know why they do it like that. It seems like you would wear your crew out really fast with that schedule.
That is too short. I mean, you're like, oh, six hour shift. That's not bad. But then you have to eat and sleep in the next six hours. That's yeah. I don't know why they do it like that. It seems like you would wear your crew out really fast with that schedule.
No, I think even eight hours, that extra two hours to unwind and eat and then get six hours sleep is adequate. Because, I mean, seriously, you think about it, you're like you're not doing six hours off and then you just fall over and sleep where you were just standing while you were working.
No, I think even eight hours, that extra two hours to unwind and eat and then get six hours sleep is adequate. Because, I mean, seriously, you think about it, you're like you're not doing six hours off and then you just fall over and sleep where you were just standing while you were working.
No, I think even eight hours, that extra two hours to unwind and eat and then get six hours sleep is adequate. Because, I mean, seriously, you think about it, you're like you're not doing six hours off and then you just fall over and sleep where you were just standing while you were working.
Now that you're off the clock, you're going to like unwind, you got to eat, you're going to just do whatever, shave, shower. And then you're going to get what, three and a half, four hours sleep if you're lucky, maybe five. I think that's a little whack, as they say.
Now that you're off the clock, you're going to like unwind, you got to eat, you're going to just do whatever, shave, shower. And then you're going to get what, three and a half, four hours sleep if you're lucky, maybe five. I think that's a little whack, as they say.
Now that you're off the clock, you're going to like unwind, you got to eat, you're going to just do whatever, shave, shower. And then you're going to get what, three and a half, four hours sleep if you're lucky, maybe five. I think that's a little whack, as they say.
Yeah, and I'm sure they're significant others like, oh, you're awake again, huh?
Yeah, and I'm sure they're significant others like, oh, you're awake again, huh?
Yeah, and I'm sure they're significant others like, oh, you're awake again, huh?
That's what I mean.
That's what I mean.
That's what I mean.
I don't know, man. It's a hard life. I'm sure Thomas can tell us.
I don't know, man. It's a hard life. I'm sure Thomas can tell us.
I don't know, man. It's a hard life. I'm sure Thomas can tell us.
Yeah, that one's fine. But I like the articulated tug barge or ATB. The sexiest link. It's an improved version of this, right? So the barge and the tugboat have like a notch and a corresponding like pointy part.
Yeah, that one's fine. But I like the articulated tug barge or ATB. The sexiest link. It's an improved version of this, right? So the barge and the tugboat have like a notch and a corresponding like pointy part.
Yeah, that one's fine. But I like the articulated tug barge or ATB. The sexiest link. It's an improved version of this, right? So the barge and the tugboat have like a notch and a corresponding like pointy part.
You put them together and put a pin through the two, and now you've got like one single machine, but the tugboat can still maneuver like fishtail and move that barge in all sorts of crazy hard angles, right? And I was like, why don't you just mechanize or motorize the barge And apparently, they use this mostly for oil tank, oil shipping. And you just get more oil out of it.
You put them together and put a pin through the two, and now you've got like one single machine, but the tugboat can still maneuver like fishtail and move that barge in all sorts of crazy hard angles, right? And I was like, why don't you just mechanize or motorize the barge And apparently, they use this mostly for oil tank, oil shipping. And you just get more oil out of it.
You put them together and put a pin through the two, and now you've got like one single machine, but the tugboat can still maneuver like fishtail and move that barge in all sorts of crazy hard angles, right? And I was like, why don't you just mechanize or motorize the barge And apparently, they use this mostly for oil tank, oil shipping. And you just get more oil out of it.
And the barges are cheaper because they don't have any self-propulsion. So it's kind of like a shipping container in a truck. Like the tractor is different than the trailer. And so you can hook all sorts of different trailers up to the same tractor time and time again, rather than just having to pilot that trailer all the time.
And the barges are cheaper because they don't have any self-propulsion. So it's kind of like a shipping container in a truck. Like the tractor is different than the trailer. And so you can hook all sorts of different trailers up to the same tractor time and time again, rather than just having to pilot that trailer all the time.
And the barges are cheaper because they don't have any self-propulsion. So it's kind of like a shipping container in a truck. Like the tractor is different than the trailer. And so you can hook all sorts of different trailers up to the same tractor time and time again, rather than just having to pilot that trailer all the time.
It made more sense to me when I was researching it than it is now that I'm explaining it.
It made more sense to me when I was researching it than it is now that I'm explaining it.
It made more sense to me when I was researching it than it is now that I'm explaining it.
Yeah, I think the expense, the added expense, I think they're cheaper because it's just a barge that is just basically a floating container that a tug can hook onto. Yeah.
Yeah, I think the expense, the added expense, I think they're cheaper because it's just a barge that is just basically a floating container that a tug can hook onto. Yeah.
Yeah, I think the expense, the added expense, I think they're cheaper because it's just a barge that is just basically a floating container that a tug can hook onto. Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
So I think it kind of, from what I understand, it bears a bit of a resemblance to like the shipping, like trucking industry, where somebody needs a tow or an escort or something like that in or out of the harbor. And you just contract with somebody then. I don't know if like you contract with one specific shipping company or you just kind of go back and forth depending on who needs what when.
So I think it kind of, from what I understand, it bears a bit of a resemblance to like the shipping, like trucking industry, where somebody needs a tow or an escort or something like that in or out of the harbor. And you just contract with somebody then. I don't know if like you contract with one specific shipping company or you just kind of go back and forth depending on who needs what when.
So I think it kind of, from what I understand, it bears a bit of a resemblance to like the shipping, like trucking industry, where somebody needs a tow or an escort or something like that in or out of the harbor. And you just contract with somebody then. I don't know if like you contract with one specific shipping company or you just kind of go back and forth depending on who needs what when.
Or it's a mixture of both. I'm not sure. But I know that back in the day, it used to be whoever got there first. So as a ship was coming in, tugboats would race out to meet them. And whoever got there first had that contract right there because they were the first ones on the scene. And they were the ones who were going to pull the ship into its berth.
Or it's a mixture of both. I'm not sure. But I know that back in the day, it used to be whoever got there first. So as a ship was coming in, tugboats would race out to meet them. And whoever got there first had that contract right there because they were the first ones on the scene. And they were the ones who were going to pull the ship into its berth.
Or it's a mixture of both. I'm not sure. But I know that back in the day, it used to be whoever got there first. So as a ship was coming in, tugboats would race out to meet them. And whoever got there first had that contract right there because they were the first ones on the scene. And they were the ones who were going to pull the ship into its berth.
Yeah. No, I don't think it's like that for sure. But I read another article. The AP did an article on the Francis Scott Key Bridge collapse in Baltimore last year, earlier this year. You remember when that ship ran into the bridge and the bridge collapsed in Baltimore?
Yeah. No, I don't think it's like that for sure. But I read another article. The AP did an article on the Francis Scott Key Bridge collapse in Baltimore last year, earlier this year. You remember when that ship ran into the bridge and the bridge collapsed in Baltimore?
Yeah. No, I don't think it's like that for sure. But I read another article. The AP did an article on the Francis Scott Key Bridge collapse in Baltimore last year, earlier this year. You remember when that ship ran into the bridge and the bridge collapsed in Baltimore?
So there was like heavy criticism because that ship wasn't being escorted by a tugboat. And everybody's like, where was the tugboat? Why was this allowed to happen? And the AP was explaining, that's just not how it works. Like the tugboat pulls the ship out of its berth and kind of gets it on its way. And then it goes back and attaches to another ship.
So there was like heavy criticism because that ship wasn't being escorted by a tugboat. And everybody's like, where was the tugboat? Why was this allowed to happen? And the AP was explaining, that's just not how it works. Like the tugboat pulls the ship out of its berth and kind of gets it on its way. And then it goes back and attaches to another ship.
So there was like heavy criticism because that ship wasn't being escorted by a tugboat. And everybody's like, where was the tugboat? Why was this allowed to happen? And the AP was explaining, that's just not how it works. Like the tugboat pulls the ship out of its berth and kind of gets it on its way. And then it goes back and attaches to another ship.
And then that ship has to find its way out of harbor, including navigating under and next to bridges and other stuff, right? And the reason why is money. It costs an extra 10 grand to pay a tugboat to pull you safely out into a harbor so you can make way. And the shipping industry holds the cards now.
And then that ship has to find its way out of harbor, including navigating under and next to bridges and other stuff, right? And the reason why is money. It costs an extra 10 grand to pay a tugboat to pull you safely out into a harbor so you can make way. And the shipping industry holds the cards now.
And then that ship has to find its way out of harbor, including navigating under and next to bridges and other stuff, right? And the reason why is money. It costs an extra 10 grand to pay a tugboat to pull you safely out into a harbor so you can make way. And the shipping industry holds the cards now.
Because if you start charging more at a port or you start, say, requiring ships to have a tugboat all the way out into the harbor, It's going to cost more money. And if another port nearby doesn't force you to do that, it's going to be less.
Because if you start charging more at a port or you start, say, requiring ships to have a tugboat all the way out into the harbor, It's going to cost more money. And if another port nearby doesn't force you to do that, it's going to be less.
Because if you start charging more at a port or you start, say, requiring ships to have a tugboat all the way out into the harbor, It's going to cost more money. And if another port nearby doesn't force you to do that, it's going to be less.
And so everybody's going to go to that port and all of your dock workers are going to lose their jobs and you're not going to get reelected as mayor of Baltimore. You see what I'm saying? Wow. Yeah. It's crazy how weirdly entrenched it is. And again, it's just so discouraging.
And so everybody's going to go to that port and all of your dock workers are going to lose their jobs and you're not going to get reelected as mayor of Baltimore. You see what I'm saying? Wow. Yeah. It's crazy how weirdly entrenched it is. And again, it's just so discouraging.
And so everybody's going to go to that port and all of your dock workers are going to lose their jobs and you're not going to get reelected as mayor of Baltimore. You see what I'm saying? Wow. Yeah. It's crazy how weirdly entrenched it is. And again, it's just so discouraging.
It seems like every episode we talk about, you can trace it back to some group of people who are cutting corners because of money. And then something bad happens and nobody does anything about it. I'm so sick of it.
It seems like every episode we talk about, you can trace it back to some group of people who are cutting corners because of money. And then something bad happens and nobody does anything about it. I'm so sick of it.
It seems like every episode we talk about, you can trace it back to some group of people who are cutting corners because of money. And then something bad happens and nobody does anything about it. I'm so sick of it.
It does. Okay.
It does. Okay.
It does. Okay.
Yeah, I'm all right now. Let me just apologize to Thomas. Sorry, Thomas.
Yeah, I'm all right now. Let me just apologize to Thomas. Sorry, Thomas.
Yeah, I'm all right now. Let me just apologize to Thomas. Sorry, Thomas.
Yep. Pretty neat.
Yep. Pretty neat.
Yep. Pretty neat.
There's some other stuff you can do too, but that's probably the best. Okay. Good. I'd like to do the best thing. Good. You got anything more on tugboats, Charles?
There's some other stuff you can do too, but that's probably the best. Okay. Good. I'd like to do the best thing. Good. You got anything more on tugboats, Charles?
There's some other stuff you can do too, but that's probably the best. Okay. Good. I'd like to do the best thing. Good. You got anything more on tugboats, Charles?
I was reading like a kid's maritime museum website about tugboats and they were trying to explain why everyone loves tugboats because it's true. Like there's nobody who doesn't like tugboats, especially if you have nothing to do with the industry, right? You're just watching them from afar. And they explained that they're very powerful and they're small, but they're also very helpful.
I was reading like a kid's maritime museum website about tugboats and they were trying to explain why everyone loves tugboats because it's true. Like there's nobody who doesn't like tugboats, especially if you have nothing to do with the industry, right? You're just watching them from afar. And they explained that they're very powerful and they're small, but they're also very helpful.
I was reading like a kid's maritime museum website about tugboats and they were trying to explain why everyone loves tugboats because it's true. Like there's nobody who doesn't like tugboats, especially if you have nothing to do with the industry, right? You're just watching them from afar. And they explained that they're very powerful and they're small, but they're also very helpful.
And I think they kind of nailed it on the head.
And I think they kind of nailed it on the head.
And I think they kind of nailed it on the head.
Okay. So Chuck gets it, and he mentioned beards twice in quick succession, which of course unlocks listener mail.
Okay. So Chuck gets it, and he mentioned beards twice in quick succession, which of course unlocks listener mail.
Okay. So Chuck gets it, and he mentioned beards twice in quick succession, which of course unlocks listener mail.
What? Sorry.
What? Sorry.
What? Sorry.
Oh, gotcha. I gotcha. Yeah. I got it now.
Oh, gotcha. I gotcha. Yeah. I got it now.
Oh, gotcha. I gotcha. Yeah. I got it now.
What did you think?
What did you think?
What did you think?
What?
What?
What?
Edward Scissorhands? Sleepy Hollow?
Edward Scissorhands? Sleepy Hollow?
Edward Scissorhands? Sleepy Hollow?
He's got a whole. I disagree. Sleepy Hall is one of my all time favorite movies. That's one of those ones I can watch like any time.
He's got a whole. I disagree. Sleepy Hall is one of my all time favorite movies. That's one of those ones I can watch like any time.
He's got a whole. I disagree. Sleepy Hall is one of my all time favorite movies. That's one of those ones I can watch like any time.
I understand what you're saying. I mean, the 1990 Batman, not the best. I would say that that's not a great movie, too, for sure.
I understand what you're saying. I mean, the 1990 Batman, not the best. I would say that that's not a great movie, too, for sure.
I understand what you're saying. I mean, the 1990 Batman, not the best. I would say that that's not a great movie, too, for sure.
I understand what you're saying. Fair enough.
I understand what you're saying. Fair enough.
I understand what you're saying. Fair enough.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes, I think Catherine O'Hara did great.
Yes, I think Catherine O'Hara did great.
Yes, I think Catherine O'Hara did great.
I keep forgetting to recommend a movie to you that I'll see it and remember how great it was. And then I forget to tell you about it again. It's called A Dark Song. Okay. It's about a woman who seeks revenge. So she finds an occultist to help her conjure demons to enact revenge.
I keep forgetting to recommend a movie to you that I'll see it and remember how great it was. And then I forget to tell you about it again. It's called A Dark Song. Okay. It's about a woman who seeks revenge. So she finds an occultist to help her conjure demons to enact revenge.
I keep forgetting to recommend a movie to you that I'll see it and remember how great it was. And then I forget to tell you about it again. It's called A Dark Song. Okay. It's about a woman who seeks revenge. So she finds an occultist to help her conjure demons to enact revenge.
I don't know how I found that one. I really don't remember. But it's on Amazon Prime, if I'm not mistaken. And it sounds like a hokey premise, but the research that the writers did is so dead on that it's entirely possible there's people out there who believe that you can do this exact thing that they're doing and conjure this exact demon. It's nuts. It's really a good movie. It's pretty rough.
I don't know how I found that one. I really don't remember. But it's on Amazon Prime, if I'm not mistaken. And it sounds like a hokey premise, but the research that the writers did is so dead on that it's entirely possible there's people out there who believe that you can do this exact thing that they're doing and conjure this exact demon. It's nuts. It's really a good movie. It's pretty rough.
I don't know how I found that one. I really don't remember. But it's on Amazon Prime, if I'm not mistaken. And it sounds like a hokey premise, but the research that the writers did is so dead on that it's entirely possible there's people out there who believe that you can do this exact thing that they're doing and conjure this exact demon. It's nuts. It's really a good movie. It's pretty rough.
I would not watch it with the kids. Um, but it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a very good art house horror film.
I would not watch it with the kids. Um, but it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a very good art house horror film.
I would not watch it with the kids. Um, but it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a very good art house horror film.
It's a little, there's a part in there that she should not see.
It's a little, there's a part in there that she should not see.
It's a little, there's a part in there that she should not see.
It is very convincing.
It is very convincing.
It is very convincing.
Yep. Uh, did you ever read the, um, listener mail?
Yep. Uh, did you ever read the, um, listener mail?
Yep. Uh, did you ever read the, um, listener mail?
I said that. You said something in quick succession, and you unlocked listener mail. Jerry already ran the chime.
I said that. You said something in quick succession, and you unlocked listener mail. Jerry already ran the chime.
I said that. You said something in quick succession, and you unlocked listener mail. Jerry already ran the chime.
I did tell you, and you didn't jump. And everything broke down as if the tugboat stopped tugging.
I did tell you, and you didn't jump. And everything broke down as if the tugboat stopped tugging.
I did tell you, and you didn't jump. And everything broke down as if the tugboat stopped tugging.
No. I'm going to lash you to the tugboats.
No. I'm going to lash you to the tugboats.
No. I'm going to lash you to the tugboats.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Oh, I know where this one's going.
Oh, I know where this one's going.
Oh, I know where this one's going.
That poor kid. I don't remember what island he was on.
That poor kid. I don't remember what island he was on.
That poor kid. I don't remember what island he was on.
Yeah, that was a sad story.
Yeah, that was a sad story.
Yeah, that was a sad story.
Great. And it was Fex, Subways of Your Mind. And who wrote in? Because, I mean, a million people wrote in. I don't think we've ever got more email about the same thing in less time than on this one. It was astounding. It was like when those post office workers come in at the end of Miracle on 34th Street and start dumping Santa letters onto the judge's bench. Right.
Great. And it was Fex, Subways of Your Mind. And who wrote in? Because, I mean, a million people wrote in. I don't think we've ever got more email about the same thing in less time than on this one. It was astounding. It was like when those post office workers come in at the end of Miracle on 34th Street and start dumping Santa letters onto the judge's bench. Right.
Great. And it was Fex, Subways of Your Mind. And who wrote in? Because, I mean, a million people wrote in. I don't think we've ever got more email about the same thing in less time than on this one. It was astounding. It was like when those post office workers come in at the end of Miracle on 34th Street and start dumping Santa letters onto the judge's bench. Right.
It was like that, but with emails about the most mysterious song on the internet.
It was like that, but with emails about the most mysterious song on the internet.
It was like that, but with emails about the most mysterious song on the internet.
Oh, dude, we'll be getting them for years, Chuck. We got an email from somebody this week, and the subject line was, Chuck predicted Sharknado. That is an old, old classic.
Oh, dude, we'll be getting them for years, Chuck. We got an email from somebody this week, and the subject line was, Chuck predicted Sharknado. That is an old, old classic.
Oh, dude, we'll be getting them for years, Chuck. We got an email from somebody this week, and the subject line was, Chuck predicted Sharknado. That is an old, old classic.
The greatest showman, yeah.
The greatest showman, yeah.
The greatest showman, yeah.
Thanks a lot, Michael. Very much appreciated. Thanks to everybody who wrote in. We don't mean to sound ungrateful. We're just joshing around.
Thanks a lot, Michael. Very much appreciated. Thanks to everybody who wrote in. We don't mean to sound ungrateful. We're just joshing around.
Thanks a lot, Michael. Very much appreciated. Thanks to everybody who wrote in. We don't mean to sound ungrateful. We're just joshing around.
Yep, thank you. Yeah, keep us informed as best you can all the time. And since I said that, and you want to be like Michael, I should tell you that you can send us an email. Send it off to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.
Yep, thank you. Yeah, keep us informed as best you can all the time. And since I said that, and you want to be like Michael, I should tell you that you can send us an email. Send it off to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.
Yep, thank you. Yeah, keep us informed as best you can all the time. And since I said that, and you want to be like Michael, I should tell you that you can send us an email. Send it off to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.