Jay Young
Appearances
Dateline NBC
A mom's desperate search to find her daughter. Tears and fury in an Ohio courtroom. And the latest in the Karen Read case.
Hi, Andrea. Thanks for having me.
Dateline NBC
A mom's desperate search to find her daughter. Tears and fury in an Ohio courtroom. And the latest in the Karen Read case.
Well, you have that absolutely right, Andrea. We're talking about eight murder victims, four crime scenes. It's just, it boggles the mind.
Dateline NBC
A mom's desperate search to find her daughter. Tears and fury in an Ohio courtroom. And the latest in the Karen Read case.
The Wagners are a large family that lives not too far away from the rodents. In fact, they were friends, by all counts, of the rodents.
Dateline NBC
A mom's desperate search to find her daughter. Tears and fury in an Ohio courtroom. And the latest in the Karen Read case.
Jake Wagner had a relationship with... one of the children of the rodents, Hannah Mae. And together they had a child, Sophia. Jake and Hannah Mae quickly became estranged after Sophia was born. Hannah Mae moved out and took Sophia with her. Jake wasn't happy about that. Nor were the Wagners happy about that.
Dateline NBC
A mom's desperate search to find her daughter. Tears and fury in an Ohio courtroom. And the latest in the Karen Read case.
In the course of the investigation, investigators learned that the Wagners feared young Sophia was being abused by a member of the Rodin family. Jake testified that the Wagners decided something needed to be done. They wanted Sophia back. They decided that they would not just kill the mother of Sophia, Hannah Mae, but they were going to kill everyone else in the family.
Dateline NBC
A mom's desperate search to find her daughter. Tears and fury in an Ohio courtroom. And the latest in the Karen Read case.
So there were no other survivors to seek retribution.
Dateline NBC
A mom's desperate search to find her daughter. Tears and fury in an Ohio courtroom. And the latest in the Karen Read case.
It's beyond unbelievable.
Dateline NBC
A mom's desperate search to find her daughter. Tears and fury in an Ohio courtroom. And the latest in the Karen Read case.
Yeah, there was really no evidence of it.
Dateline NBC
A mom's desperate search to find her daughter. Tears and fury in an Ohio courtroom. And the latest in the Karen Read case.
There were multiple crime scenes, but there was very little physical evidence. But they did find foot impressions in the blood. I hate to say it. They were able to determine that the footprints were from a shoe that was sold at Walmart. and they were able to determine the size.
Dateline NBC
A mom's desperate search to find her daughter. Tears and fury in an Ohio courtroom. And the latest in the Karen Read case.
And lo and behold, after they conducted a search warrant on the Wagners' property, they discovered a receipt for shoes from a Walmart. And they ultimately were also able to seize the Wagners' computers. And one of the interesting things they found was a screenshot of a conversation that Hannah Mae had with someone months before the massacre. She says, the Wagners want to take custody of my child.
Dateline NBC
A mom's desperate search to find her daughter. Tears and fury in an Ohio courtroom. And the latest in the Karen Read case.
If they want custody, they're going to have to kill me first.
Dateline NBC
A mom's desperate search to find her daughter. Tears and fury in an Ohio courtroom. And the latest in the Karen Read case.
Well, ultimately what they were able to get from Jake Wagner is he led investigators to the location of the murder weapons on the Wagner property. That was incredibly incriminating evidence, obviously. And he outlined in great detail how the massacre unfolded.
Dateline NBC
A mom's desperate search to find her daughter. Tears and fury in an Ohio courtroom. And the latest in the Karen Read case.
You had Angela Wagner herself and Jake Wagner.
Dateline NBC
A mom's desperate search to find her daughter. Tears and fury in an Ohio courtroom. And the latest in the Karen Read case.
Yeah, the mother of one of the victims gave an incredibly impassioned victim impact statement.
Dateline NBC
A mom's desperate search to find her daughter. Tears and fury in an Ohio courtroom. And the latest in the Karen Read case.
Jake Wagner did take the opportunity to speak to the Roden family. He looked at them in the eye.
Dateline NBC
A mom's desperate search to find her daughter. Tears and fury in an Ohio courtroom. And the latest in the Karen Read case.
The victim's families present in the courtroom didn't want to hear any of it. In fact, they walked out as Jake was speaking.
Dateline NBC
A mom's desperate search to find her daughter. Tears and fury in an Ohio courtroom. And the latest in the Karen Read case.
Angela was sentenced to 30 years. And for many, it was a shock to hear that Jake Wagner, who everyone anticipated would receive a life sentence without the possibility of parole, suddenly was presented with the opportunity to get parole. So he'll serve 32 years, and then he'll be eligible for parole.
Dateline NBC
A mom's desperate search to find her daughter. Tears and fury in an Ohio courtroom. And the latest in the Karen Read case.
Well, the judge has ruled in favor of a change of venue in Billy Wagner's trial. What's happening now is that the prosecution is appealing the judge's decision.
Dateline NBC
A mom's desperate search to find her daughter. Tears and fury in an Ohio courtroom. And the latest in the Karen Read case.
It's difficult to say, and you can just imagine how difficult this is for the victim's family. They have to endure this even longer.
Dateline NBC
A mom's desperate search to find her daughter. Tears and fury in an Ohio courtroom. And the latest in the Karen Read case.
Thank you.
Dateline NBC
Verdict in the pharmacist poisoning trial. A deadly love triangle in paradise? And Bryan Kohberger is back in court.
Thanks for having me.
Dateline NBC
Verdict in the pharmacist poisoning trial. A deadly love triangle in paradise? And Bryan Kohberger is back in court.
It was palpable. You know, she took the stand. She was very quiet, very reserved in how she started off and how she described her father. And she painted quite a picture.
Dateline NBC
Verdict in the pharmacist poisoning trial. A deadly love triangle in paradise? And Bryan Kohberger is back in court.
Well, she testified, Michael was really into bodybuilding and how he appeared. And so he was an athlete and he took supplements to increase his muscle mass. And so she talked about how she would see her dad put basically a plate out and just dump a bunch of pills onto the plate and then take them every morning.
Dateline NBC
Verdict in the pharmacist poisoning trial. A deadly love triangle in paradise? And Bryan Kohberger is back in court.
She also talked about how toward 2017, this was a couple of years before he passed, that his health wasn't great and that his health was in decline. And she painted a picture of her dad as someone who wasn't his robust self.
Dateline NBC
Verdict in the pharmacist poisoning trial. A deadly love triangle in paradise? And Bryan Kohberger is back in court.
She noticed a big difference in his demeanor. She did testify about visiting him in the hospital, and this was in the fall of 2018, prior to his passing in February of 2019.
Dateline NBC
Verdict in the pharmacist poisoning trial. A deadly love triangle in paradise? And Bryan Kohberger is back in court.
That's right. He actually testified very specifically about a time he remembers. His mom was watching something on television and his father was on a computer. And he asked his dad what he was doing. And according to the son, he said his dad told him he was working on some contracts with the company that he and Natalie had started.
Dateline NBC
Verdict in the pharmacist poisoning trial. A deadly love triangle in paradise? And Bryan Kohberger is back in court.
So that was all to indicate that his dad was very involved in the minutia of the company.
Dateline NBC
Verdict in the pharmacist poisoning trial. A deadly love triangle in paradise? And Bryan Kohberger is back in court.
That's right. That's right. All along, the prosecution said the Ponzi scheme that ultimately was revealed was all Natalie's doing, and Michael had no idea what was going on.
Dateline NBC
Verdict in the pharmacist poisoning trial. A deadly love triangle in paradise? And Bryan Kohberger is back in court.
It was pretty hard to take. You know, I've seen a fair amount of crime scene photos over the years. And you heard Michael's mother sobbing after looking at the photographs. And it was a very disturbing moment, I think, for everyone in the courtroom.
Dateline NBC
Verdict in the pharmacist poisoning trial. A deadly love triangle in paradise? And Bryan Kohberger is back in court.
They concluded that the first autopsy, done seven months after Michael's passing, was in fact the correct ruling that the manner and cause of death could not be determined.
Dateline NBC
Verdict in the pharmacist poisoning trial. A deadly love triangle in paradise? And Bryan Kohberger is back in court.
Yeah, she did. She basically said, look, there's very little that we can determine from Michael's autopsy.
Dateline NBC
Verdict in the pharmacist poisoning trial. A deadly love triangle in paradise? And Bryan Kohberger is back in court.
Well, I think on the part of the prosecution, they wanted to demonstrate that Natalie had a motive. And Natalie's motive was that Michael was about to uncover the Ponzi scheme that she had created. And so what she decided to do was to kill her husband. And so...
Dateline NBC
Verdict in the pharmacist poisoning trial. A deadly love triangle in paradise? And Bryan Kohberger is back in court.
The defense tried to take the wind out of the prosecution's sail by saying, Michael knew it was a Ponzi scheme, so Natalie had no motive to kill him. And if you believe that Natalie didn't have motive, then the prosecution's case collapses.
Dateline NBC
Verdict in the pharmacist poisoning trial. A deadly love triangle in paradise? And Bryan Kohberger is back in court.
Yeah. I mean, I think no one knew what was going to happen. The prosecution made it very clear they had no direct evidence in this case. It was a circumstantial case. Now, they said that they had a mountain of circumstantial evidence, a blizzard of circumstantial evidence. But that was still going to be a stone that they had to get up the mountain. I think everybody was surprised at the outcome.
Dateline NBC
Verdict in the pharmacist poisoning trial. A deadly love triangle in paradise? And Bryan Kohberger is back in court.
Thanks for having me, Andrea.
Dateline NBC
An accused killer's surprising defense. A pharmacist on trial for poisoning. And a medical examiner's strategy for cracking cold cases.
Well, thank you for having me, Andrea. Really appreciate it.
Dateline NBC
An accused killer's surprising defense. A pharmacist on trial for poisoning. And a medical examiner's strategy for cracking cold cases.
The theory is that Natalie was concerned that Michael had discovered the Ponzi scheme and was going to come forward and expose her.
Dateline NBC
An accused killer's surprising defense. A pharmacist on trial for poisoning. And a medical examiner's strategy for cracking cold cases.
Thanks for having me.
Dateline NBC
An accused killer's surprising defense. A pharmacist on trial for poisoning. And a medical examiner's strategy for cracking cold cases.
Let me take you back to February of 2019. Michael Cochran suddenly becomes ill. He collapses at his home. And from all accounts, he is having a seizure. Ultimately, they get Michael to a hospital. Michael is subjected to a battery test. They are able to determine that he is hypoglycemic, which means his blood sugar levels are very low, dangerously low.
Dateline NBC
An accused killer's surprising defense. A pharmacist on trial for poisoning. And a medical examiner's strategy for cracking cold cases.
And then five days later, after he is sent to a hospice, he tragically dies.
Dateline NBC
An accused killer's surprising defense. A pharmacist on trial for poisoning. And a medical examiner's strategy for cracking cold cases.
Yeah. The medical examiner ruled the cause of death was natural.
Dateline NBC
An accused killer's surprising defense. A pharmacist on trial for poisoning. And a medical examiner's strategy for cracking cold cases.
people start to scratch their heads a little bit about Michael's death. Michael was 38 years old and he was in pretty good shape. And unrelated to Michael's death, investigators are getting wind of some problems that are associated with Michael and Natalie's business. Investors are starting to complain a little bit, wondering what's happening to their investments.
Dateline NBC
An accused killer's surprising defense. A pharmacist on trial for poisoning. And a medical examiner's strategy for cracking cold cases.
And so authorities, they start looking into this business. and then ultimately get a search warrant to search Michael and Natalie's house. And what they find was a vial of insulin in the kitchen refrigerator. And ultimately, investigators come up with a theory. Natalie poisoned Michael with insulin. Natalie was concerned that Michael had discovered
Dateline NBC
An accused killer's surprising defense. A pharmacist on trial for poisoning. And a medical examiner's strategy for cracking cold cases.
that the company was actually a fraud, was a Ponzi scheme. And Natalie was concerned Michael was going to come forward and expose her.
Dateline NBC
An accused killer's surprising defense. A pharmacist on trial for poisoning. And a medical examiner's strategy for cracking cold cases.
They were unable to find insulin in Michael's body when they exhumed it months later. Cut to 2023. The prosecution decides they want to exhume Michael's body again to test his remains with more sophisticated tests. And this time, the pathologist that the state hired to examine the remains ruled that Michael's manner of death was homicide.
Dateline NBC
An accused killer's surprising defense. A pharmacist on trial for poisoning. And a medical examiner's strategy for cracking cold cases.
Now, the state went even further and had an endocrinologist review some of the paperwork. And she determined that the cause of death was most likely due to insulin injections. So there was no trace evidence of insulin.
Dateline NBC
An accused killer's surprising defense. A pharmacist on trial for poisoning. And a medical examiner's strategy for cracking cold cases.
You know, Andrea, you've been through this so many times. I have, too. It's a very solemn occasion. Everybody's very quiet. Everyone is really deferential. The prospective jurors were sitting in the jury box, and then the prosecution enters, sits down at their desk, and then in comes Natalie Cochran. And you can see Natalie looking over at the prospective jurors.
Dateline NBC
An accused killer's surprising defense. A pharmacist on trial for poisoning. And a medical examiner's strategy for cracking cold cases.
You can only wonder what's going through her mind.
Dateline NBC
An accused killer's surprising defense. A pharmacist on trial for poisoning. And a medical examiner's strategy for cracking cold cases.
Yeah, that's exactly what the prosecution said. And by and large, the prospective jurors said, no, I'm OK. I understand that you have direct evidence and you have circumstantial evidence. And one is not more important than the other. That was the general consensus on the part of the prospective panel.
Dateline NBC
An accused killer's surprising defense. A pharmacist on trial for poisoning. And a medical examiner's strategy for cracking cold cases.
There's no question that the prosecution has to work with a case that does not have direct evidence. But what they do have is a defendant who is a convicted felon serving 11 years. And if she can defraud her family, loved ones, investors, there's no telling what she can do. That's going to be their argument.
Dateline NBC
An accused killer's surprising defense. A pharmacist on trial for poisoning. And a medical examiner's strategy for cracking cold cases.
They argue Michael was well aware of the fraudulent nature of the business. So Natalie would have no reason to want to kill him.