Eran Galperin
Appearances
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
Yeah. I mean, that's definitely the part of building this company that took me the longest to figure out. I do have some background in writing. So I have written a lot over the years, mostly technical writing, but eventually moved into, I wrote about startups, going through accelerators, stuff like that. So I had that in my back pocket. Also some experience with technical SEO and
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
So I thought for sure with SEO, I could drive some leads to the product. Turns out that was also naive. It took me quite a while to figure out the SEO for this company. But now I have such a good handle on it that I advise other SaaS companies on this particular topic. I just had a call with one of the tiny seed companies where I analyzed their entire SEO structure and gave them actionable items.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
It just... This is one of the things, it's not like this with every marketing channel. Maybe it is, I haven't figured it out yet. But specifically with organic traffic, you can approach it almost like an engineering challenge and kind of really figure out a plan to attack it. And we built a really structured, repeatable process there to expand and also retain the land that we acquire in SEO.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
Because to keep your rankings it's very difficult in a competitive market it took me i want to say five years to really figure that out in 2021 when we hired the first full-time employee that was a content marketing editor because i knew this is our strongest channel And this is our best writer. And I want to just keep investing in this channel. And it paid off.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
We still drive most of our leads through SEO. I think it's over 60, 70% of our leads come through that channel. And they're all extremely qualified leads. It's a channel with a lot of buying intent. So yeah, it's definitely something I had to work on. But just persistence, like with everything else, trying and failing, trying and failing and figuring it out. That's how we did it.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
I follow some people on Twitter that literally what they do is they build a tiny SaaS product and they give it a couple months and then they sell it for peanuts on microacquire.com. I think it's just acquire.com now. And just move on to the next. And they keep hoping that one of those will blow up. But that's not how it works.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
If you're going to only stay with it for a few months, it's never going to happen.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
When it started, I initially, first of all, the language that they use in a lot of this inbound is very vague. I didn't think it was about buying the company. I thought it was venture investment, basically. They talk about growth equity, like we said at the beginning. At that time, I didn't know exactly what that meant. It's like, oh, are you interested in growth investment into your company?
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
I'm like, no, you know, I'm bootstrapped. Not interested in that. Eventually, one of them actually used direct language. And I'm like, okay, interesting. I think we're too small, but let's talk and see where it's at. And we were too small at that time, but I started to get a sense of how things might go.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
And between 2021 and 2023, I must have taken close to 40 calls with different private investors, search funds, all sorts of different constellations. And I really got a pretty good lay of the land as to what a potential outcome might look like and at what revenue numbers it would make sense to sell. And I started having this kind of mental funnel in my head.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
It's like, okay, if we hit those benchmarks, maybe it's time to start thinking about running a process.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
That's definitely an option. And some people do this, but I started to feel some burnout. Even in 2021, I ran the company with a bootstrappers mindset, always hiring maybe a couple of steps later than I really should have because I'm optimizing for profits. It's really hard to disconnect the revenue going into the company from your own finances, right?
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
At the end of the day, anything that's left over in the company is your revenue personally. And I was doing a lot, just maybe doing too much. I was feeling burnout. And at some point, it's like, you know what? I would be happy to take a step back and let somebody else run the company.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
There's also, you know, when you're at a smaller scale and you self-select for the customers, everybody is nice and it's a pleasure to work with. But as you hit a certain scale, the small percentage of people that, I can't think of a better word, just nasty people, and you have to deal with them,
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
And it gets to the point, those people are above the level of even, you know, a full time customer service person to handle. It leaves a dent in you. You know, it always feels like they're going to ruin your company's reputation. We had people like trash us and all the social media channels for the pettiest stuff. I have stories that just make my blood boil when I think about it.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
And it's like, I just don't. want to deal with it. There's this emotional connection as a founder CEO that maybe a professional CEO would not have because they didn't build the company. They don't feel it in their bones when somebody is just saying nasty things about them online. And yeah, I just wanted to kind of remove myself a little bit from that.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
It's surprisingly a large feeling of relief. It was the end of a very grueling, even though not long, maybe in comparative terms, but for me, long process of three months where basically every day I doubted that this would actually end up well. And many times, as sort of a psychological trick, I would kind of let myself feel, so what if it falls apart? It's all good.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
So because we received so much inbound interest, I did really have a lot of insight into where an optimal result might happen. And it did seem to really funnel around female in an ARR. That's where a lot of the bigger players that can actually pay the big multiples start getting interested. At the lower ARR, it's... There's definitely interest, but people would try for bargain.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
The multiples are lower. The terms are not as good. And I saw a very direct line to that number. With our growth numbers, I was running this kind of projection P&L where If we continue at the same pace that we've been growing and add a little bit to it every few months, and it ended up being almost to the dollar accurate all the way up to 3 million.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
So as long as I was continuing with the trend that I built there, I'm like, you know what? I'm good. I don't need to sell now unless I see like crazy warning signs. And by the way, those crazy customers, those were the warning signs. Like, is this it? Is this where I'm like taking a... Tumbled down the death row for the company.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
That did make me wonder, maybe it's time to sell now before I really run into that customer that tries to ruin our business. But yeah, as long as we kept on that trend, I'm like, I could see the path. It didn't seem too long. So if it was like five years into the future, I would not be able to do it. But it was about two years into the future.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
I'm like, I think I can hold on for that and have a life-changing outcome there.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
Yeah, the process was much more stressful than I anticipated. And it's mostly psychological in its core. First of all, it's a very technical process. That's another thing that I didn't anticipate. Everybody reads about due diligence. It seems like a very straightforward thing. You just provide the documents for the company. You let them look at your code base. And you're done. And it's all great.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
But it's actually so technical and complicated. There were times during due diligence, and it's mostly around stuff like taxes and company structure, that the other side's legal team would just disappear for like three, four days a week looking into something. And I'm like, is this a big problem? Is this a small problem? Is this taking down the deal? I just have no idea.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
And this kind of like ambiguity where you have no idea if
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
things are going well or not for weeks at a time it really gets to you eventually and it's a lot very minute things written in some contract from three years ago and it's like is this a problem it looks so minor is this really a problem and they're like we don't know we're gonna need more time to find out it's like sounds bad you know but you just stick with it eventually you get food due diligence and then you have the purchase agreement aspect
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
I thought once we're done with due diligence, like we're done, you know, we just need to sign the contracts and get on with our lives. But hell no, that was just half of the process. It was crazy.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
Yeah, you just don't know those things. Luckily, I had Einar to provide some emotional support. He told me that basically his role once the process starts is to be therapist for the founders. And it pretty much ended that way. Every time I would go to him, it's like, how big is this issue? It's like, don't worry, it happens in every sale process.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
And when the money actually hit the bank account, actually, it happened very fast. We closed the deal on a Friday, 30 minutes before the wire cut off time. And the funds were in the bank account the same day. I did not expect that before the weekend. And I'm just like, I guess it's over. I guess it's done. I can have a real night's sleep today and maybe the entire weekend.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
Like, okay, if Einar says it happens every time, it's fine.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
Okay. So he would calm me down and this would happen a lot. Him and my lawyer, I want to give credit, Kaiser, just did an amazing job, especially during the purchase agreements. Every word in those agreements can have... such a long-term effect on your life. And you're like, I don't even know what any of this means.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
So having a really good lawyer that is patient and kind enough to explain it in a way that you can understand is so important. And still there, we would get hung up on things where us and the buyer had some sort of disagreement on and like, is this solvable? I don't know. And again, days would go by, weeks would go by. From my end, this is the only thing going on in my life, right?
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
Other than running the business. But they're dealing with multiple deals at the same time. So I don't know if they're just ghosting me or actually busy. Is this a tactic that they're using to get me to come to their side? Yeah, it's super stressful. I usually consider myself a very even-keeled person, and I was taken aback by how stressed I got near the end of the deal.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
Even though we had all this inbound interest, I felt like if this deal falls apart and we go back to market, we will be able to get a really good outcome regardless. But I just didn't, once you get too deep into it, you hate so much to go back to the beginning and do the due diligence again. It's like, oh my God, to go for that will be a nightmare.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
So yeah, near the end of the process, I literally got insomnia. I would lie down in my bed, refreshing, looking for emails from the lawyer that I felt like, okay, I have to get out of bed, respond to this now. Otherwise, I'm going to stop this deal for the weekend because it's a Friday. And it got to the point where once I turned the phone off and I'm trying to go to sleep,
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
I just can't fall asleep. So it's like, OK, it's 8 a.m. I'm just getting up. I didn't sleep today. I'll just keep going. And what do you know? Another email came in from the lawyer. So good thing I didn't go to sleep and just stayed like that for the last couple of weeks of the process.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
As I mentioned, one of the reasons for selling the company was due to burnout. And when I was talking about the terms with the buyer, I mentioned that I would like to step down as CEO after the company is sold, and probably over the course of maybe a year or two, eventually walk away from the company, or at least have the ability to do that. So currently I'm still the CEO.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
We closed the deal two and a half months ago. We're in the process of recruiting a professional CEO to come in and take over for me. I literally had an interview just before this call, an hour-long interview. By the way, it's been a fascinating process, interviewing for the CEO position.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
I'm talking to really incredible people, and I'm super excited to potentially work with those people, with me taking a smaller role in the company, mainly focusing on product. That's where I feel I can make the most impact at the company. I've been doing well in the other aspects, but those are definitely not my strong suits.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
And I literally slept like 14 hours a day for the entire weekend. That made me just a massive feeling of relief. Like all this weight just washed down.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
So going back to focusing on product and over time, reducing my involvement in the company, I still hold some minority stake in the company. So I wanted to do well, but maybe more on a consultancy basis eventually.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
The main thing for me right now, and I already started doing that, is I'm looking to help mentor other B2B SaaS founders from that zero to one and a potential sale process and also do some angel investing in that same realm. So I'm talking to a few founders already. Those conversations actually are incredibly invigorating for me.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
Yeah, I just incredibly happy to talk about those topics. It's like I have somebody who also understands what I'm talking about and having those conversations, kind of like what we're doing right now.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
Yeah, so I have my personal website. It's IranGalperin.com. If you just Google my name, you'll find it. You can contact me through there. Also, I'm on Twitter and LinkedIn. Easy to find. Feel free to reach out if you want to talk. I'm super excited to talk to founders about B2B SaaS. It's kind of my thing right now.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
Yeah, it always gets me worked up to talk to founders in the early stages and hearing about what they're doing. It's like, wow, that's so exciting. So yeah, I love having those calls.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
Thank you so much, Rob. Been a pleasure.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
It's kind of a mix of both. So I didn't really have an idea for things to buy, but I already had in my head a financial plan of how I'm going to deploy this. I'm a proponent of the FHIR methodology, if you heard of it. Financial independence retire early, and it basically revolves around investing in fund indexes that return a very stable amount every year.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
And with this amount of money, I'm basically set for life if I follow this approach. So I knew I was going to do that. I ended up upgrading my car to basically the same model, but newer and higher trim. because I really like that car. And now we're in the process of, we bought a piece of land here in Tokyo where I live, and we're building a house on it. So that's super exciting.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
Not something that I actually planned, but like a month after the sale was completed, it's like, you know what, we should start looking into it. And we're now in the process. Yeah, those are the major things.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
So now I have an Audi RS3 for people who are into that kind of stuff. It's a nice car. It's still compact, which fits with the very narrow streets of Tokyo. But it's just a slight upgrade from the previous car, which was an S3. Basically exactly the same car on the inside, but a small upgrade that I felt like was well-deserved.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
Yeah, so our investor is a private equity firm, and they did a majority acquisition of the company. They bought the majority stake of the company. I'm left with a minority stake in it, and some of the funds are going to be used to grow the company. The majority of it is for them to acquire the controlling stake of the company, and this is what the amount that is on the public statement is for.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
Most of our customers just refer to us as MA on Rails or just MAOR for some reason. I hated that acronym, but a lot of them used it and I just ran with it. So yeah, at the time, I just winded down a previous company, a VC-backed company called BinPress that raised a seed round and just didn't grow enough to raise another round. And I was kind of burnt out on the VC model.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
I felt that company had potential But because it didn't fit the VC timeline, it had to shut down. So I wanted to go in a different direction. Me and my co-founder kind of split paths. He moved to the dark side and became a VC partner. And I started a bootstrap company back then that was called Martial Arts on Rails.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
I wanted to combine my hobby of many years, which was training in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, nine years at the time, with my professional skills in software development. I did a lot of market research. Initially, I kind of tried avoiding going into the vertical we ended up going in, which is business management software. Because there's some very entrenched players in this space.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
Now I know that that's actually an advantage. They do a lot of the customer education for us. There's obviously a lot of potential revenue to be had because they're so big. But back then it looked very intimidating. Eventually, I did decide to go that route just because everybody I talked to in this space said the current incumbents were just so awful.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
So I don't want to name any names, but anybody in this space knows exactly who they are. And I felt with my experience in user experience and software development, I could bring something better to the market. We launched in 2016, and me being a technical founder in every stop previously, I was the CTO or some kind of engineering leader.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
I quickly realized that I had zero idea on how to acquire customers. And so began this kind of slow trial from zero to a livable wage over the course of three and a half years, during which I got a full-time job as initially a software engineer and eventually a CTO of an e-commerce company in LA. And only in 2019, I started working full time on the business.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
It was actually, it didn't feel quick to me. The last couple of years kind of went in a blur when we were growing pretty fast every year. But the first five were a slog for sure. Yeah.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
Yeah, I was around 35K. And by the time the program started, already 40. And I remember having chats with some of the founders and the meetup we had in Arizona. And they're like, you're at 40K. Why did you join TinySeed? And I had a different calculation than them in my mind because I had the same kind of dilemma when I was thinking about applying. It's like, we're doing pretty well.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
What can I get from TinySeed that I can't get by myself? And the framework that I use is if TinySeed helps increase the value of the company by more than the equity that they take, which was 10%, then it's worth it. And it ended up being... way worth it.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
So I think in that regard, it doesn't matter that we were at 35 because we came in from maybe different reasons than some of the other companies in the batch.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
A lot of it, well, it started with me following your content and startups for the rest of us, right? You know, I've talked to many investors. And I can tell when somebody actually knows what they're talking about. They're not just repeating stuff they read on somebody else's blog, listened to on a podcast. which is the case with a lot of the investors that I see.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
And I was coming in to get that kind of advice one-on-one. This is my first company that I'm building Bootstrap. First company that I got to a certain scale that I haven't been able to at previous companies. And I'm going into a lot of uncharted territory. I remember that we had pricing realignment engagement together. Me and you sat together and talked it over.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
That was a very scary process for me. We had a lot of, you know, long-term customers and I'm about to really ramp up the pricing on them. And it helps so much that I can do it with somebody that already ran this playbook. Also seen it fail at Amazon. other companies, even your own after acquisition, I guess.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
That really helped me do this confidently and it went super well and actually kick-started the next upward strand in our revenue growth. And there were multiple such instances. This is the main reason that I joined TinySeed.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
I think I can tell pretty accurately why we succeeded, and it's because we went against what everybody else in the market is doing. So we have the 900-pound gorilla, like you mentioned, and a lot of the similar competitors kind of copied our playbook. They have a product, and I think this has come in a lot of B2B verticals, that is very outdated and difficult to use.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
I guess the thinking is that business software doesn't need to be accessible or easy to use, and they just have a very strong sales motion. And a lot of our other competitors are pretty much the same. I mean, their products... started at different points in time. So you can kind of tell, oh, this one is from 08, this one is from 2011, but they never bothered updating it afterwards.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
When I started Gym Desk without any sales knowledge, the only thing I can do was just talk to customers and make the product better. I myself went through a transformation with this company where I used to be that technical person, that engineering lead that you would come to with customer complaints. And it's like, yeah, they're using it wrong. They're not very smart.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
I would say mean things like that. And with this product, I kind of realized it's actually the opposite. The dumber the feedback looks like, the more opportunity there is to make the product better. And I really took that to heart and through this endless feedback loop, made a product that just makes everything so much easier than our competitors.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
We might have a similar feature set, but the way those features and flows are implemented is completely different. And this is where I feel we really made our first kind of differentiation in the market. The other side of it is with the customer service. So anybody who works with me knows how responsive I am to emails.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
And it was the same with customers in the early going when I was the only one talking to them. And when I started hiring for customer service, I made sure that we stayed with that mentality. Somebody sends a report that something is not working, we have to get back to them as early as possible and resolve it as quickly as possible.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
not just issues, but also small feature requests where it seems like it's a no-brainer, we would roll those out sometimes the same day. You can find reviews of us on Keptera and other websites where the guy is like, yeah, I message customer service, I talk to the CEO, and on the same day I get a new feature that solves our use case. And you can't beat that kind of experience.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
So this is how we kind of build our brand in this space.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
I'm 100% optimized for self-serve. So it's maybe a bit ridiculous, but in the early days, I actually refused doing demos. I just hate getting on video calls with people I don't know. And people would email in, I want the demo. It's like, yeah, we don't do that. I'll be happy to answer your questions over email, which is the medium I'm comfortable with.
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
But yeah, for years, we just didn't do any demos. We do do demos now. We have a full team. They help with onboarding. But because we didn't have any demos and none of that motion at all, I really had to make the product shine in those aspects, right?
Startups For the Rest of Us
Episode 728 | Bootstrapping Gymdesk to a More Than $32.5M Exit
So every time people would say, oh, I can't do this in onboarding, it's like, okay, let me go back to the product and fix it like that instead of getting on a call and explaining to you how to do it.