David Navarro
Appearances
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
you kind of, you get eligible to get a tag and come out three months early. But I think that was, if I'm not wrong, I think that was under four years at the time. Yeah. So now this is like five years and under. So they've changed it a little bit, but there's been loads of schemes for people to come out three months early.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
I think we're making such a big deal out of this, you know, because so much people was released at one time. I think we're making such a big deal out of it for political reasons. I think the actual thing is, prisoners were going to get released anyways before Christmas.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
And also, I'm still unlicensed, by the way. It runs out next year. But my probation told me that they get an extended license. So if they do 40% in prison, they do 60% outside here. So they've come out of prison early, but their sentence hasn't been shortened. So in that 60% of time, they can still get recalled.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
Yeah. And it's like Pia said, It could be anything. You know, I've known people to like miss an appointment or like, you know, be in the wrong car without telling them that I'm going to be in this car. Or I didn't tell that person that I'm going to be in Newcastle today or like another part of the country.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
And then they get stopped and it's like, all right, you're recalled because you didn't tell us you was going there. It's very strict probation. Yeah.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
Yeah, the state of prisons is obviously a shambles. I agree with what you're saying. I feel like if you want to deal with the crisis that's going on, you need to put more into rehabilitation rather than just locking people up and kind of what they're doing.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
And me and Pia were speaking about this earlier, that if you look at places like Norway, Holland and these places that put a lot into rehabilitation, the re-offending rate is the least in Europe. But then if you look at England, I think we have the highest like re-offending rates. We have the highest like
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
lifers and stuff like that in this country like we love to lock people up and if you look at like America they love to do it as well and they're such a bigger country and they give big sentences out like more than your lifetime they'll give out them sentences but that hasn't stopped the offending or the re-offending but then if you look at countries where it's working I feel like we should follow those countries rather than following America or do you know what I mean or like the old way of doing things I think that that's
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
No. So my answer to that is like, you have different types of people, but the person that's most prone to going to prison, like, you know, someone that doesn't really like authority, they, while they're younger, they don't respond well to punishment, if that makes sense. Like, you know, as a child, I used to get slapped or whatever. And I never ever responded well to that.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
I didn't stop doing what I was doing because I would get a slap kind of thing. I just tried to be smart. And some people do get that smack and then they're just like, oh, I don't want to get smacked again. But I think a lot of the people that are prone to go in prison, more troubled kids, they don't respond well to punishment.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
Furthermore, like they'll be sat in prison and they'll be getting even more angry at society, even more like, you know, and they're making more links. It's like university or crime prison. So they're coming out even worse. Yeah, I reckon.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
It's just giving you more time, I guess. If you built another prison, it'll give you just enough time until that gets filled up. Yeah.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
what's the reason what's going on there is you've got like there's something called IPP this was a a law that was made and then the person that made the law is now like campaigning against it oh wow David Blunkett yeah and it got It got stopped. I don't know the word for it, but it got stopped in 2012. But the people that was originally sentenced on IPP are still in.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
And it was like, basically, there's people that I know that, you know, are in for stealing like a pedal bike. Yeah. But they've been in for 16 years because they haven't been able to get their parole.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
A lot of them don't get parole on their first time, you know, and then because you don't have a release date, what people are not realising, these prisoners that don't have a release date, they're stressed so they end up on drugs in prison or they might hold phones or, do you know what I'm saying?
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
And then these prisoners that are on long licence, because IPPs are life licence, so these prisoners that
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
are there for a long time are just trapped in a cycle because they're getting in trouble in prison, not getting their parole, and then it just happens over and over again, you know, and I feel like there's less crime, like you said, but there's prisoners still doing their sentence when they should have been out a long time ago, you know, especially IPPs.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
A lot of people that haven't been in the system or don't understand it, they think like criminals are just monsters and they're just bad people. But a lot of the time when you're actually in there, you're like, oh, well, his mum and dad were both like drug users and he didn't really have a right upbringing. He didn't or she didn't know how to navigate through life.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
And, you know, these people need intervention. And, you know, we should look at the circumstances or what led up to this. You know, in my podcast, I always ask, like, what led up to the crime?
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
That's a good shot because let's say it was going to be like a five-year sentence. If it was five years suspended, then while you're outside, you know one mistake, I'm in jail for five years. Do you know what I mean? Rather than just, let's just put them in there. If you feel like there's something you can do to kind of help this person, put them on a, was it DRR?
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
I think that's what it's called, isn't it? Yeah, put them on a DRR, like a drug rehabilitation thing and then get them to kind of change before they...
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
If we can get some of these people straight into work with earning money and, you know...
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
that could that could be good because i never i was going in prison for about 10 years in total and i never really thought i didn't think i wasn't qualified so i never got university qualifications or anything like that so i thought i'm just it's going to be so hard to get a job and then when i came out i couldn't even do like a cscs course which is like the most basic easiest thing to do they didn't let me do it because of my crime so yeah i guess
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
A lot of people don't realise that, you know, there's jobs you can do and this will take you away from having to make money in other ways. Because obviously poverty breeds crime, you know. So I feel like if you just kind of helped in that department and made them feel like somebody responsible, then that's the person they're going to be.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
Sorry, go, Coco.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
I have immediate thoughts. I don't know if you want to start. So my immediate thoughts was, like I said, I've spent like 10 years of my life in prison and it wasn't until I came out when I was 30. So it wasn't until I was a lot older and I think men develop their frontal brain later.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
anyway please go on this is it like I I never had consequential thinking and stuff I used to think I knew about the consequences but I really didn't like now I've come out I'm a father of two now you know I'm I'm going forward in my life and now I think about sometimes I walk past I walk past like you know, the places where I've committed crimes. And I'm just like, I can't believe I did that.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
I was like a different person. Do you know what I mean? But it's because I hadn't developed that if I do this, I'm going to lose so much of my life. And then when I came out this time, my license was going to run out when I was 35. So I was like, I've been going to prison all my 20s. I've never had a 20th birthday, you know? And I was like,
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
if I don't change this now, I'm going to be an old man coming out at 35 with nothing, no kids, nothing. And I was just in a cycle of going back to prison until I caught quite a big sentence. And then while I was sitting down, I then was able to realise there's consequences to this stuff.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
Obviously, if you want to know more in depth about prisons... Go and check out my documentary on Channel 4, Secrets of UK Prisons, Untold Secrets of UK Prisons. Check it out.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
Thank you, Dave Navarro. I just had to plug myself in quickly.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
Reintegrating into society is a big one because when you're in prison, I feel like you're in a totally different world, different rules. And especially when you've done quite a long time, you come out and you have to reintegrate back into society. Then you've got like the housing, relationships. and then trying to take a different path rather than the path that you've been going down.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
I think that accounts for certain prisoners. Obviously at the present, between 20 and 30% of prisoners get recalled anyways. And I think some of the people that may have said, you know, I'm going to be back in there, they might be like drug addicts that haven't sorted out their addiction while they're in there. And I think they probably would have got recalled anyways.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
For like the people that actually want to change or feel like they want to change their life, we'll take this as an opportunity.
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
Yeah. I think it's positive as in, because the prisons are full, obviously. And I think we're kind of making a big deal out of it. Maybe, I think some of it's political, you know, trying to get at Labour a bit. Do you know what I mean? But I feel like,
Pod Save the UK
Inside out: How to fix the UK’s prison system + Labour embraces unpopularity
for the people that qualify for it, and I think the maximum time is five years, the earliest they can get out is three months early, which before this, there were schemes like HDC tag, which was like three months early you get out. What is that? Sorry, I just, we don't, it'd be good to explain. So HDC is home detention curfew. It's like a tag. And if you're well behaved in prison,