Chris Stokel-Walker
Appearances
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
And the challenge we have, unfortunately, Coco, is that these tools are already out there. And people can make money by producing AI dross-generated cookbooks and selling them on Amazon for a couple of quid's profit every single time. And even if the tech companies were responsible actors in a way of saying, we should limit this use, and even if there was regulation by government...
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
The tools are now out there in people's hands. And so if you take a principled stand and you say, I'm not going to buy these cookbooks, I'm not going to use AI to just ask inane questions because of the environmental impact, unfortunately, other people will.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
Yeah, weird U-turn, isn't it? Yeah, we had the Splechley Park Summit around about 18 months ago, where we were told the Terminator is coming to life and we should all prepare for it. And now, suddenly, everything is rosy. AI safety has turned into AI opportunities, but let's also really quietly whisper about the jobs that are going to be displaced. And we should all embrace it.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
We're going to become AI junkies, according to the government. We were meant to be mainlining AI into our veins as a country or something weird like that. So we're going to be shambling from one thing to another, seeking the next buzz from artificial intelligence, it seems.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
Yeah, sorry, I was busy making jokes to actually not answer the question, which is... I'm normally too busy making jokes to ask the question, Chris.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
We'll share the load across all three of us. Yeah, basically what happened was back in July-ish last year, the government commissioned this guy called Matt Clifford, who is this venture capitalist. He's kind of the go-to tech person when the government wants to solve the problem. Because obviously one of the issues that we have is government works incredibly slow. It is incredibly expensive.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
sclerotic, it doesn't necessarily always get to grips with the latest technologies. So they have to bring in people who do understand this and are at the cutting edge of this. So they asked Matt Clifford to basically come up with a plan. They said, we don't currently have a plan for what to do about AI. We've heard about ChatGPT.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
We know that AI is going to be this huge technology that is going to change our lives. And we know that other countries around the world are making big inroads on this, but we're kind of stuck. So give us a plan for what we can do to try and meet this moment to adopt this technology and to benefit and kind of become one of the best in the world.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
We're already around about number three by most rankings in the world in terms of AI behind the US and China, which isn't bad, by the way, for a country of our size. So Matt Clifford goes away. He pulls together this plan, and it has 50 recommendations that were published before mid-January this year that were almost fully adopted.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
We're spending vastly more on mental health now than we did a few years ago. And it's hard to see what the objective reasons for that are. And if we're not careful, we get into a position where people, life has its ups and downs and everybody experiences those. And you've got to be careful of encouraging people to think they've got some sort of condition other than
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
simply confronting the challenges of life.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
And the idea is basically that we're going to go full bore into supporting AI, using its benefits to all of our society. And the government has kind of just gone through a checkbox exercise that said, yep, we'll do this, we'll do that, we'll do this. So basically all the recommendations have been adopted in full.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
Yeah, this is where we get really kind of complicated, Coco, which is that things have changed enormously, but the government wants to say they haven't. We can't go through a kind of 180-degree turn from AI is going to kill us all to AI is going to save us all without asking those questions. And the government really doesn't want to talk about it.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
Not necessarily in terms of the safety of the existential risk. Truthfully, the idea of the Terminator, even, frankly, of her becoming a reality... is very much science fiction. But there is, I think, a kind of set of other concerns that we have to be aware of, including the environmental impact, including societal impact, including this job displacement that we're going to see.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
And also for people like us who are in the creative industries, a real concern around copyright. Actually, of those 50 recommendations, 47 were fully accepted as kind of just, yep, we agree about There were three that weren't. One didn't have a comment on it, which was a kind of one around copyright.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
One had a partially agree, which was another one around how do we deal with the copyright regime in the UK? Because data that we produce is being used to train these AI models and often without any sort of semblance of acceptance of copyright law. Then the other one was about how do we get international talent into the country around kind of
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
relaxing the visa rules to ensure that we can get the best in the world to come here, which many Brexity people do not like, of course. So there were huge announcements unveiled at the same time as the AI opportunities plan for new bits of infrastructure. Truthfully, lots of these were already in place and in progress before the plan.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
So we're getting kind of new AI data zones where there will be high-tech clusters of Bits of infrastructure, many of them actually already focused around Oxford, which is where we already see large numbers of AI startups emanating from.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
Yeah, probably not in time for the next election dish. I think that is one of the issues that they have. And it was one of the things that was really interesting to pick up on in the immediate aftermath of those words that we heard from Keir Starmer.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
He gave his speech and then obviously opens it up to questions and lobby correspondents from across Westminster then peppered him with questions of, yeah, but there's no money here. And we know there's no money. And You're not going to be able to find the money to do things like improve the NHS, to help social care, to do all of the other things that we need.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
So why are we spending what little money we do have on this in the hope that in the long term we'll see benefits? I think we will see benefits. Many of... Those who have studied the potential impact of AI see productivity benefits. They see benefits to global GDP, 1.5 percentage points productivity increase in the next decade or so, according to Goldman Sachs and others like them.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
So I think what we will see perhaps is kind of short-term pain a little bit in terms of all of these job displacements and challenges that we'll have and the money that we're going to have to spend in order to get the long-term gain. And I don't know whether or not that will come in time for Keir Starmer to point and say,
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
This AI system that I decided on in January 2025 has magically improved our economy and our society.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
Yeah, I mean, I think it will make it more difficult because we already know that there are... really tough times out there to try and find jobs. And I think that this won't be made any better by AI because the whole premise of AI is that it's going to make us more efficient. And so we need fewer people to do stuff and we need to reskill in order to work with AI.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
I interviewed a guy called Jeffrey Hinton last month. He's commonly called one of the godfathers of AI. He's often asked, as someone who knows more than the average person about AI, what children should be doing, because obviously anxious parents are always worried. And he said, train as a plumber.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
So that's kind of the thing that I think we have to bear in mind is those manual labor jobs, I think will be more in demand at the same time as those kind of Traditionally, white-collar jobs will be less in demand. The IMF put out a recent study that said 40% of all jobs worldwide could be affected in some way by AI. Doesn't mean completely replaced, just means changed. But it said 40%.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
And most of those, ironically, compared to the Industrial Revolution, where it's a blue-collar displacement, will be white-collar jobs and will be in more economically developed countries, including the West and the Global North.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
I really do wonder whether when they were discussing and signing off this plan in cabinet, they just kind of locked Ed Miliband in a separate room. Because this is like, yes, you're right. There is a huge environmental impact towards AI. And one of the challenges that we have
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
is the AI companies hold the information about how much environmental impact there is, and they don't tell us at the minute. We have best guesses by academics, but they are just that, guesses. It doesn't take a genius to realize that if a company isn't willing to tell the whole truth about something, then perhaps there might be something that they want to hide a little bit there.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
One of the things I think that AI companies do say is, well, and this is a common refrain, we've talked about this already with jobs, is yes, there is a short-term environmental impact. But in the long term, if we get this right, then AI systems can find better, more economical, more environmentally friendly ways of powering our energy systems, of doing all of this stuff.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
We can better use the energy that we do have, provided that we use the AI technology that is currently draining. our energy system and causing such a demand on our water supplies and elsewhere. Whether you choose to believe that is kind of, I guess, your tolerance of belief in tech companies to do the right thing.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
I'm a tech skeptic tech reporter, and I speak to this really interesting expert called Sasha Luciani. She works for a company called Hugging Face. She's their AI and climate lead. She has tried constantly to get these numbers out of those companies, and they just won't give them. And that gives her real concerns in the long run.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
We do. And another stat that might be useful to try and bring it home to our listeners is that every time that you interact with ChatGPT and ask it 20 questions back and forth, that's equivalent of pouring a bottle of water that you would get from WH Smiths or whatever down the drain. The reason why this water usage is happening is because essentially
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
Every query that you make for a chat GPT or similar tool goes to what's called a data center. They produce heat and energy and they need to be cooled down so water constantly has to flow across them in order to try and take away the heat. Yes, you would hope that the government will take action on this. The problem, of course, is...
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
that if we take a stronger stance on the environmental impact, that other people will say, well, we'll have more lax regulation, come and work with us. And one of the things I think that was really interesting about the AI Opportunities Plan is almost the messaging behind it wasn't designed fully for us as individuals.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
It was actually Keir Starmer kind of standing up in front of glitzy robots behind him to try and signify new technology and saying, well, the world's investors, we are open for business. Come to us, we will welcome you. with open arms, we will potentially bend our rules a little bit and our principles perhaps as well in order to get you here. Because we know that this is the competition.
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
This is the race. One of the things that actually Keir Starmer said constantly in his speech, kept using this word race. And he kept saying, it is a race to be first. It is a race to get this interest. If we don't do it, someone else will. And in terms of the environment, he also kind of gave away the game a little bit when he used a kind of unfortunate,
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
image in terms of trying to produce a metaphor in his speech. Right near the end, he said that we have to grasp the nettle of AI. And I was like, why did he use nettle? Because nettle sting, right?
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
Yeah, and this is one of the problems is that big tech moves fast, government moves incredibly slow. One of the fundamental principles of big tech companies is a 2012 manifesto put out by Mark Zuckerberg, the owner of Meta, the parent company of Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, etc. It's called the hack away. And one of the things that was enshrined in that and is kind of
Pod Save the UK
Facts versus F-wits: how to fight the Alt Reich
a common mantra for basically every tech executive and anybody working in the tech industry now is a really simple phrase, move fast and break things. Now, that works fine if you're a tech company, But if you're a government, the last thing you want to do is break things. But you do need to move fast nowadays.