Charlie Brooker

No, I would never... No, I mean, I think that... I mean, that would be nice. If somebody wants to make that comparison, I'm not going to spend four hours trying to desperately talk them out of it. But no, I think he was probably a more astute political writer in many... I mean, I could list all his qualities. I'm being very British about it, aren't I? I'm being very British and self-deprecating.

No, I would never... No, I mean, I think that... I mean, that would be nice. If somebody wants to make that comparison, I'm not going to spend four hours trying to desperately talk them out of it. But no, I think he was probably a more astute political writer in many... I mean, I could list all his qualities. I'm being very British about it, aren't I? I'm being very British and self-deprecating.

No, I'm not fit to...

No, I'm not fit to...

I suppose it depends. What do you mean in terms of what do you mean? What do you mean by that? In that he wrote 1984 and it was.

I suppose it depends. What do you mean in terms of what do you mean? What do you mean by that? In that he wrote 1984 and it was.

Probably, I suppose, probably. And I'd probably be moaning that his show was doing better than mine or something. Yes, maybe. Maybe, I suppose. It's interesting because I do...

Probably, I suppose, probably. And I'd probably be moaning that his show was doing better than mine or something. Yes, maybe. Maybe, I suppose. It's interesting because I do...

it's generally it's an odd it's an odd black mirror is a weird show in that i i don't see it as the job of the show to like be a sort of warning i feel like 1984 was probably more felt like a warning more overtly wow a lot of people watch you uh i think watch these episodes and view it as a warning you don't view it that's interesting well i don't

it's generally it's an odd it's an odd black mirror is a weird show in that i i don't see it as the job of the show to like be a sort of warning i feel like 1984 was probably more felt like a warning more overtly wow a lot of people watch you uh i think watch these episodes and view it as a warning you don't view it that's interesting well i don't

I suppose maybe I don't explicitly set out to be a warning because I may... What it probably is, and a psychologist could probably... would probably be able to work out what it is better than me. It's probably, I'm a worrier. I'm quite an anxious and neurotic person, but I've also got a background in comedy. Right. Why often it's me kind of worrying out loud.

I suppose maybe I don't explicitly set out to be a warning because I may... What it probably is, and a psychologist could probably... would probably be able to work out what it is better than me. It's probably, I'm a worrier. I'm quite an anxious and neurotic person, but I've also got a background in comedy. Right. Why often it's me kind of worrying out loud.

Sometimes the episodes are kind of me worrying out loud. Sometimes I'm trying to Sometimes it's actually coming from a sort of really darkly comic place that we then play straight in the show itself. So I'm sort of, but predominantly I'm trying to entertain more than I'm trying to warn. And if I'm trying to warn, I'm not always, I wouldn't necessarily boil it down to a specific warning.

Sometimes the episodes are kind of me worrying out loud. Sometimes I'm trying to Sometimes it's actually coming from a sort of really darkly comic place that we then play straight in the show itself. So I'm sort of, but predominantly I'm trying to entertain more than I'm trying to warn. And if I'm trying to warn, I'm not always, I wouldn't necessarily boil it down to a specific warning.

The one thing that frustrates me is when people say it's a warning about technology, which I really don't think that the show is.

The one thing that frustrates me is when people say it's a warning about technology, which I really don't think that the show is.

No, it's a, what am I talking about? No, it's, no, it's, well, okay. So it definitely, it's, it's more about people. I think, I think because I think what the show, I'm actually impressed by technology in my everyday life. I think technology is amazing. And I used to be a video games journalist. I'm quite. So you're not at, you're not enough. You don't have a phobia.

No, it's a, what am I talking about? No, it's, no, it's, well, okay. So it definitely, it's, it's more about people. I think, I think because I think what the show, I'm actually impressed by technology in my everyday life. I think technology is amazing. And I used to be a video games journalist. I'm quite. So you're not at, you're not enough. You don't have a phobia.

I don't have a phobia about, I'm impressed and amazed by technology. And I tend to be an early adopter of, well, certainly like video game consoles and things like that. So I'm sort of like a tech enthusiast in many ways. And I think, but I, but like I say, I am a worrier and I think that I am often awestruck by what technology can do. And then that naturally leads you to worry about the,

I don't have a phobia about, I'm impressed and amazed by technology. And I tend to be an early adopter of, well, certainly like video game consoles and things like that. So I'm sort of like a tech enthusiast in many ways. And I think, but I, but like I say, I am a worrier and I think that I am often awestruck by what technology can do. And then that naturally leads you to worry about the,

implications of a powerful tool because it's a powerful tool and and we're we're amazing creatures because we created these tools, but we're also, there's loads of us and we can be clumsy. We can be, we've got faults, we've got flaws.

implications of a powerful tool because it's a powerful tool and and we're we're amazing creatures because we created these tools, but we're also, there's loads of us and we can be clumsy. We can be, we've got faults, we've got flaws.

And so we can, so it's sort of, so if there's any sort of parable going on, it's really usually in our stories, it's usually a sort of active human clumsiness or an active human impulsiveness or greed or jealousy or something like that, that actually is the downfall of the character.

And so we can, so it's sort of, so if there's any sort of parable going on, it's really usually in our stories, it's usually a sort of active human clumsiness or an active human impulsiveness or greed or jealousy or something like that, that actually is the downfall of the character.

Well, I mean, you could argue that that's cynical or unfortunately... True. Yes, realistic. And it's interesting that... where that story came about, that came about from me listening to a podcast. I heard this story. I'm glad you're telling it. I find it fascinating. Explain. Well, so I was listening to a podcast.

Well, I mean, you could argue that that's cynical or unfortunately... True. Yes, realistic. And it's interesting that... where that story came about, that came about from me listening to a podcast. I heard this story. I'm glad you're telling it. I find it fascinating. Explain. Well, so I was listening to a podcast.

I listen to a lot of podcasts, and when the host has to do an immediate pivot into a sales pitch, it always – it strikes me as – It's really quite weird when they go from talking very naturally into a slightly more robotic kind of sales.

I listen to a lot of podcasts, and when the host has to do an immediate pivot into a sales pitch, it always – it strikes me as – It's really quite weird when they go from talking very naturally into a slightly more robotic kind of sales.

Right here. And I think I'd listened to like a true crime podcast and the guy was sort of recounting some grisly, like terrible, terrible incident and then sort of had to suddenly pivot into pitching a sort of food delivery company, like kind of seamlessly. And this struck me as darkly hilarious. And so going into that podcast,

Right here. And I think I'd listened to like a true crime podcast and the guy was sort of recounting some grisly, like terrible, terrible incident and then sort of had to suddenly pivot into pitching a sort of food delivery company, like kind of seamlessly. And this struck me as darkly hilarious. And so going into that podcast,

I thought, okay, here's a, here's a, that's a very Black Mirror-y idea because I'd been thinking about, well, what if you had a service that could kind of stream part of your brain? Like, you know what I mean? If you lose part of your brain that was a backup, it can stream it to you, but you've got all these issues to do with coverage, cell coverage. Right.

I thought, okay, here's a, here's a, that's a very Black Mirror-y idea because I'd been thinking about, well, what if you had a service that could kind of stream part of your brain? Like, you know what I mean? If you lose part of your brain that was a backup, it can stream it to you, but you've got all these issues to do with coverage, cell coverage. Right.

And then the idea of adverts, that became a funny and quite dystopian thought. And so I approached that story thinking, this is going to be a comedy. And it is a comedy until it isn't. And I think that's why it's quite, um, I think obviously in that episode, I think it's a very powerful episode.

And then the idea of adverts, that became a funny and quite dystopian thought. And so I approached that story thinking, this is going to be a comedy. And it is a comedy until it isn't. And I think that's why it's quite, um, I think obviously in that episode, I think it's a very powerful episode.

I think, um, Chris and Rashida and Tracy who are starring it and Ali Panku, the director, I think everybody did an amazing job and it's like slightly wrong foot to you. Cause it looks like it's going to be a comedic story. Yeah. And then it, the logic of the cold logic of it gets more and more inescapable. Um,

I think, um, Chris and Rashida and Tracy who are starring it and Ali Panku, the director, I think everybody did an amazing job and it's like slightly wrong foot to you. Cause it looks like it's going to be a comedic story. Yeah. And then it, the logic of the cold logic of it gets more and more inescapable. Um,

And I think that's quite often, that's my, that's not my happy place, but that's my natural, I'm trying not to say wheelhouse. Don't like that phrase. I don't even know what wheelhouse is. What is a wheelhouse? I guess where they housed wheels.

And I think that's quite often, that's my, that's not my happy place, but that's my natural, I'm trying not to say wheelhouse. Don't like that phrase. I don't even know what wheelhouse is. What is a wheelhouse? I guess where they housed wheels.

Right, you're right. We've all been saying it and none of us know. So I quite like taking a premise that's sort of comic and then you find the sort of, sometimes the horror angle, sometimes we've done episodes that are more optimistic. But I suppose there, what am I saying, that I...

Right, you're right. We've all been saying it and none of us know. So I quite like taking a premise that's sort of comic and then you find the sort of, sometimes the horror angle, sometimes we've done episodes that are more optimistic. But I suppose there, what am I saying, that I...

it you realize then that you've got a story that is actually commenting on on lots of things the health care health care and um health care just general cost of living and the fairness of health care right like we we all know we we come up with these amazing cures or there's medicine out there but only for those that can afford it so Yeah, I obviously have a slightly different perspective.

it you realize then that you've got a story that is actually commenting on on lots of things the health care health care and um health care just general cost of living and the fairness of health care right like we we all know we we come up with these amazing cures or there's medicine out there but only for those that can afford it so Yeah, I obviously have a slightly different perspective.

I'm in the UK and I can't imagine. So I have, you know, we have the NHS here, which is free at the point of use, all of that. So Breaking Bad wouldn't have really worked here as a show. Like if you said it in the UK, because Walter White would go and get treatment. Now the NHS has all sorts of faults, but you would go and get... life-saving treatment very quickly.

I'm in the UK and I can't imagine. So I have, you know, we have the NHS here, which is free at the point of use, all of that. So Breaking Bad wouldn't have really worked here as a show. Like if you said it in the UK, because Walter White would go and get treatment. Now the NHS has all sorts of faults, but you would go and get... life-saving treatment very quickly.

Um, and you wouldn't be bankrupted for that here. So, um, so, so, um, so, so sometimes you, you realize, oh, I'm commenting on that. I didn't, I didn't realize when I, when I walked into this sort of room narratively, I didn't realize that it was also full of all of this stuff. And so you kind of realize you're in quite a rich, um, environment in a way.

Um, and you wouldn't be bankrupted for that here. So, um, so, so, um, so, so sometimes you, you realize, oh, I'm commenting on that. I didn't, I didn't realize when I, when I walked into this sort of room narratively, I didn't realize that it was also full of all of this stuff. And so you kind of realize you're in quite a rich, um, environment in a way.

So, so you can, and you can comment on lots of things. And also that episode is, am I allowed to, what, what's the language like on this web, on this podcast? We don't, we don't. Well, it's not, it's not a massively offensive word. Have you heard the word in shitification? In shitification. I have heard that. Yeah.

So, so you can, and you can comment on lots of things. And also that episode is, am I allowed to, what, what's the language like on this web, on this podcast? We don't, we don't. Well, it's not, it's not a massively offensive word. Have you heard the word in shitification? In shitification. I have heard that. Yeah.

So that's, it's not my friend, Corey Doctorow, who's this writer who coined this phrase in shitification. And I was thinking also of that, which is the process by which platforms or services, the experience for the user degrades over time because the company has to make a profit. It's the story of everything.

So that's, it's not my friend, Corey Doctorow, who's this writer who coined this phrase in shitification. And I was thinking also of that, which is the process by which platforms or services, the experience for the user degrades over time because the company has to make a profit. It's the story of everything.

Yeah. Kind of and well, and kind of sort of everything, sort of everything. And it's hard to leave. As a user, it's hard to leave. So actually, it's a bit like because you remember this. You're right, because you also remember when it was good. Yeah. It's like being trapped in a loveless marriage. It's sort of like it's like you're trapped in this. You entered into it. It was fun.

Yeah. Kind of and well, and kind of sort of everything, sort of everything. And it's hard to leave. As a user, it's hard to leave. So actually, it's a bit like because you remember this. You're right, because you also remember when it was good. Yeah. It's like being trapped in a loveless marriage. It's sort of like it's like you're trapped in this. You entered into it. It was fun.

I don't know what you're talking about. My wife doesn't know what I'm talking about. No, but as a metaphor, it's like a... Not what you thought you were getting into at the start, and you can't see... social media, all sorts of platform. You can't see a way you're addicted to it now as well. Or smoking, smoking as well. It's like, no, it's bad. Yeah. No, it's bad. And it's, it's more ish.

I don't know what you're talking about. My wife doesn't know what I'm talking about. No, but as a metaphor, it's like a... Not what you thought you were getting into at the start, and you can't see... social media, all sorts of platform. You can't see a way you're addicted to it now as well. Or smoking, smoking as well. It's like, no, it's bad. Yeah. No, it's bad. And it's, it's more ish.

Um, yeah.

Um, yeah.

So my career path is weird. And again, it sort of slightly makes sense in retrospect. So I was a cartoonist, first of all. I was a cartoonist. Then I was a video games journalist. Then I was sort of doing a website. Then I was working in comedy, and I was writing for The Guardian. But I was doing, like, TV reviews. And I never considered myself a journalist.

So my career path is weird. And again, it sort of slightly makes sense in retrospect. So I was a cartoonist, first of all. I was a cartoonist. Then I was a video games journalist. Then I was sort of doing a website. Then I was working in comedy, and I was writing for The Guardian. But I was doing, like, TV reviews. And I never considered myself a journalist.

I would write columns, and I would write TV reviews. But I always considered myself a bit of a clown, really. Do you know what I mean? Like, I was attempting to do comedy bits. I was always writing... comedy. And then I'd had an idea for, we did a show. I had an idea for a show in the UK, which took a comic premise and then played it straight. It was a zombie show.

I would write columns, and I would write TV reviews. But I always considered myself a bit of a clown, really. Do you know what I mean? Like, I was attempting to do comedy bits. I was always writing... comedy. And then I'd had an idea for, we did a show. I had an idea for a show in the UK, which took a comic premise and then played it straight. It was a zombie show.

And the premise was that there's a series of the TV show, the season of Big Brother, the reality show, which at the time was absolutely massive in the UK. And the premise was there was a season of Big Brother.

And the premise was that there's a series of the TV show, the season of Big Brother, the reality show, which at the time was absolutely massive in the UK. And the premise was there was a season of Big Brother.

And what if there was a zombie apocalypse broke out during this and the people in the Big Brother house who had been chosen by producers to argue and fight and not get along are sort of the only people left alive in the whole of Britain. And then I thought the other fun thing was I was a fan of sort of horror and zombie things.

And what if there was a zombie apocalypse broke out during this and the people in the Big Brother house who had been chosen by producers to argue and fight and not get along are sort of the only people left alive in the whole of Britain. And then I thought the other fun thing was I was a fan of sort of horror and zombie things.

I thought, well, what if we, and then what if we play it straight was the other sort of the idea. And we did that and it went down,

I thought, well, what if we, and then what if we play it straight was the other sort of the idea. And we did that and it went down,

um really well it was like really successful and then so the chat it was channel four in the uk said well what else would you like to do and i'd always been an admirer of the twilight zone and we had a show in the uk tales of the unexpected which was short role doll stories the bbc often used to when i was growing up they put out these really bizarre sort of one-off plays sometimes about you couldn't kind of you'd go into school the next day like did

um really well it was like really successful and then so the chat it was channel four in the uk said well what else would you like to do and i'd always been an admirer of the twilight zone and we had a show in the uk tales of the unexpected which was short role doll stories the bbc often used to when i was growing up they put out these really bizarre sort of one-off plays sometimes about you couldn't kind of you'd go into school the next day like did

you see that thing? Well, man fell in love with a tree or whatever, you know, it's like crazy sort of avant-garde place. And then really terrifying films about nuclear war and stuff like this. And, um, and so I, I, I, so I sort of, that was what I pitched. And it was originally the idea. It didn't have the technological focus so much the original pitch. It was more, um,

you see that thing? Well, man fell in love with a tree or whatever, you know, it's like crazy sort of avant-garde place. And then really terrifying films about nuclear war and stuff like this. And, um, and so I, I, I, so I sort of, that was what I pitched. And it was originally the idea. It didn't have the technological focus so much the original pitch. It was more, um,

I was interested in... I read about Rod Serling, who created the Twilight Zone. Yes. And I read... So I read a sort of biography about him. And I didn't... I hadn't appreciated... The Twilight Zone was always niche in the UK. You had to see it. It was like late at night. It was like 10.30 p.m. or 11 p.m. like tucked away on a channel at random times. And...

I was interested in... I read about Rod Serling, who created the Twilight Zone. Yes. And I read... So I read a sort of biography about him. And I didn't... I hadn't appreciated... The Twilight Zone was always niche in the UK. You had to see it. It was like late at night. It was like 10.30 p.m. or 11 p.m. like tucked away on a channel at random times. And...

but it would still really stand up and speak to me. And I hadn't appreciated that Rod Serling was a, I'd only known him as the guy from the Twilight Zone, that he was, when the Twilight Zone was first announced, people were going, why on earth is he debasing himself doing a show? He's a serious playwright. He's a serious writer.

but it would still really stand up and speak to me. And I hadn't appreciated that Rod Serling was a, I'd only known him as the guy from the Twilight Zone, that he was, when the Twilight Zone was first announced, people were going, why on earth is he debasing himself doing a show? He's a serious playwright. He's a serious writer.

Why is he doing a silly show about, it looks like this is going to be about UFOs and little green men and aliens and different dimensions. And, of course, it was because it meant he could talk about the issues of the day without being censored because he could address things as metaphor. But also to a kid watching it, it was just, that's cool.

Why is he doing a silly show about, it looks like this is going to be about UFOs and little green men and aliens and different dimensions. And, of course, it was because it meant he could talk about the issues of the day without being censored because he could address things as metaphor. But also to a kid watching it, it was just, that's cool.

Like a chilling sort of story where it's got a mind-mangling twist and that's just really cool. And so that was the impetus, was to do something that was a bit like that, but about now. And then I kind of... the more I thought about it, I thought, well, what would Rod Serling be writing about now?

Like a chilling sort of story where it's got a mind-mangling twist and that's just really cool. And so that was the impetus, was to do something that was a bit like that, but about now. And then I kind of... the more I thought about it, I thought, well, what would Rod Serling be writing about now?

Well, it would be technology and it would be, but again, at the time, at the time it was, so I, at the time the show first, at the time the show was first conceived, the view of technology was very, very positive. Very positive.

Well, it would be technology and it would be, but again, at the time, at the time it was, so I, at the time the show first, at the time the show was first conceived, the view of technology was very, very positive. Very positive.

I think generally we thought these iPhones and smartphones were brilliant and social media had helped bring about the Arab Spring and it was going to wash her in a new era of diplomacy and democracy. And we're all going to talk to each other.

I think generally we thought these iPhones and smartphones were brilliant and social media had helped bring about the Arab Spring and it was going to wash her in a new era of diplomacy and democracy. And we're all going to talk to each other.

And the biggest complaint anyone had about social media was that it was full of people posting photos of their breakfast and talking about my issue in their life and being a little narcissistic, not unhinged enough. It wasn't this sort of unhinged vortex of anger and hatred.

And the biggest complaint anyone had about social media was that it was full of people posting photos of their breakfast and talking about my issue in their life and being a little narcissistic, not unhinged enough. It wasn't this sort of unhinged vortex of anger and hatred.

But because it seemed so rosy, the portrayal of it seemed so rosy and it made me... The anxious, neurotic person in me was immediately distrustful and scared, if you see what I mean. Because you kind of think...

But because it seemed so rosy, the portrayal of it seemed so rosy and it made me... The anxious, neurotic person in me was immediately distrustful and scared, if you see what I mean. Because you kind of think...

I'm probably more of a boring centrist in a way, in terms of like, so I can worry, again, like I can, I have a natural tendency to worry about anything. I can leap over five lily pads over to immediate destruction and the apocalypse very quickly. You could show me a spoon and I would worry about terrible things that someone could do with that spoon.

I'm probably more of a boring centrist in a way, in terms of like, so I can worry, again, like I can, I have a natural tendency to worry about anything. I can leap over five lily pads over to immediate destruction and the apocalypse very quickly. You could show me a spoon and I would worry about terrible things that someone could do with that spoon.

And so I can totally, with AI, I can absolutely understand all the terrifying implications and it's the unknown, isn't it, really? We don't know. But you can also see Okay, there's myriad opportunities. It is an amazing tool. And we're not going to – we can't really put the genie back in the bottle. We've invented this. Yes, I worry about, you know, if you're in a kind of AI arms race, then –

And so I can totally, with AI, I can absolutely understand all the terrifying implications and it's the unknown, isn't it, really? We don't know. But you can also see Okay, there's myriad opportunities. It is an amazing tool. And we're not going to – we can't really put the genie back in the bottle. We've invented this. Yes, I worry about, you know, if you're in a kind of AI arms race, then –

obviously there's an impetus to, and people start thinking that guardrails are slowing them down and there's a reason to, you know, dismantle any guardrails that there are. I think kind of like anything, the printing press was an amazing, like one of the most amazing inventions in history, caused all sorts of, upheaval because suddenly you had this way that ideas could be disseminated.

obviously there's an impetus to, and people start thinking that guardrails are slowing them down and there's a reason to, you know, dismantle any guardrails that there are. I think kind of like anything, the printing press was an amazing, like one of the most amazing inventions in history, caused all sorts of, upheaval because suddenly you had this way that ideas could be disseminated.

Obviously, no one would say the printing press was a bad invention.

Obviously, no one would say the printing press was a bad invention.

No, and actually, that's a good example of a extremely, in a way, very positively disruptive technology that probably obviously clearly did a lot more harm than good. You can bet somebody put on a pair of eyeglasses and went, right, I don't like that guy over there. Oh, man, I didn't realize how much I didn't like. Yeah, it ended a lot of marriages. I don't like my neighbor. Yeah, so...

No, and actually, that's a good example of a extremely, in a way, very positively disruptive technology that probably obviously clearly did a lot more harm than good. You can bet somebody put on a pair of eyeglasses and went, right, I don't like that guy over there. Oh, man, I didn't realize how much I didn't like. Yeah, it ended a lot of marriages. I don't like my neighbor. Yeah, so...

But I guess with AI, you can see that the potential is incredible. The potential for it as a tool is incredible. The obvious worry I think that we all have is, is that guy going to take my job? Is that guy going to take my job? And then is that guy going to... run things from that. Is that guy going to be my boss? Not just take my job, but going to be my boss.

But I guess with AI, you can see that the potential is incredible. The potential for it as a tool is incredible. The obvious worry I think that we all have is, is that guy going to take my job? Is that guy going to take my job? And then is that guy going to... run things from that. Is that guy going to be my boss? Not just take my job, but going to be my boss.

And how, how do we manage that if that's the case? And I don't know, I don't, I think like any writer, you, you look at, uh, like something like chat GPT and you are, it's worrisome. It's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a worry. And you worry about, um, If we end up replacing... I'm talking creatively.

And how, how do we manage that if that's the case? And I don't know, I don't, I think like any writer, you, you look at, uh, like something like chat GPT and you are, it's worrisome. It's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a worry. And you worry about, um, If we end up replacing... I'm talking creatively.

If you end up replacing... If any creative work is one human attempting to communicate with other humans, if you take the human out of one end of that pipe, I don't know what... You've got a different... I think you've got a different form. You've got a different thing that I don't know what that is.

If you end up replacing... If any creative work is one human attempting to communicate with other humans, if you take the human out of one end of that pipe, I don't know what... You've got a different... I think you've got a different form. You've got a different thing that I don't know what that is.

I think if you start replacing writers in your, well, weirdly, we don't actually have a writing room on Black Mirror. We sometimes have written- Yeah, what do you do?

I think if you start replacing writers in your, well, weirdly, we don't actually have a writing room on Black Mirror. We sometimes have written- Yeah, what do you do?

Well, no, it's just I'm walking around. Occasionally, so I've collaborated with, right, so there's two of the episodes this season are co-written, but we don't have like a formal writing room where people are sort of pitching ideas and stuff. Usually what's happening is I'm wandering around thinking – I've got nuggets of idea and then they'll sort of coalesce at some point.

Well, no, it's just I'm walking around. Occasionally, so I've collaborated with, right, so there's two of the episodes this season are co-written, but we don't have like a formal writing room where people are sort of pitching ideas and stuff. Usually what's happening is I'm wandering around thinking – I've got nuggets of idea and then they'll sort of coalesce at some point.

If that makes it like, or suddenly I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll think, Oh, I know I want to do a story about this and I want to do a story with, and I, and here's a cool scene. I've got this, or here's a moment I want to do, but I don't, I don't know what the story is. And then I'll see something else or I'll think of something. And that will pause me to knit those ideas together.

If that makes it like, or suddenly I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll think, Oh, I know I want to do a story about this and I want to do a story with, and I, and here's a cool scene. I've got this, or here's a moment I want to do, but I don't, I don't know what the story is. And then I'll see something else or I'll think of something. And that will pause me to knit those ideas together.

Now, whether I could do, regurgitate all those ideas into AI and go, can you see connections between them? I probably could do that. Would it... Would it, that's a scary, again, there's a good Roald Dahl story about that, about an automated writing machine with pedals for, that's a scary, are you hastening your own demise by doing that?

Now, whether I could do, regurgitate all those ideas into AI and go, can you see connections between them? I probably could do that. Would it... Would it, that's a scary, again, there's a good Roald Dahl story about that, about an automated writing machine with pedals for, that's a scary, are you hastening your own demise by doing that?

Certainly I can see, obviously when ChatGPT first launched, the first thing I did was you say to it, go on then, tell me a Black Mirror type idea. And it started coming out with something that initially you go, oh God, that's, Okay, that sounds plausible. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Certainly I can see, obviously when ChatGPT first launched, the first thing I did was you say to it, go on then, tell me a Black Mirror type idea. And it started coming out with something that initially you go, oh God, that's, Okay, that sounds plausible. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It sounded plausible, but it was also the more, so you get immediate, as you're watching the sentences come in, you have an immediate, like, Jesus Christ, you know, oh my God, this is, I'm watching myself get dismantled in real, I'm watching the death of my career in real life. And then you go, actually, oh, actually, no, this isn't that good. This is very, this is generic and it's formulaic.

It sounded plausible, but it was also the more, so you get immediate, as you're watching the sentences come in, you have an immediate, like, Jesus Christ, you know, oh my God, this is, I'm watching myself get dismantled in real, I'm watching the death of my career in real life. And then you go, actually, oh, actually, no, this isn't that good. This is very, this is generic and it's formulaic.

Oh, and I see this feels like, a lukewarm, not very interesting pitch that actually is just hobbled together from fragments of... Because it's a bit like the... It doesn't work.

Oh, and I see this feels like, a lukewarm, not very interesting pitch that actually is just hobbled together from fragments of... Because it's a bit like the... It doesn't work.

I think so, but I hope so. And I think that we'll always want it. That's the other thing. I think we'll always want that.

I think so, but I hope so. And I think that we'll always want it. That's the other thing. I think we'll always want that.

How will you know you're talking to a human? That's the problem at the moment. It's because you get, well, at the moment, it's because you get the equivalent of a sort of novelty experience. e-fob that makes four sound effects. When they're rubbish and you're talking to one and it's just going, I'm sorry to hear that you feel that you're cross. Have you tried looking up on our website?

How will you know you're talking to a human? That's the problem at the moment. It's because you get, well, at the moment, it's because you get the equivalent of a sort of novelty experience. e-fob that makes four sound effects. When they're rubbish and you're talking to one and it's just going, I'm sorry to hear that you feel that you're cross. Have you tried looking up on our website?

It's a sort of chat bot. That's frustrating. When you've got one But by next year, you'll probably have one that within six minutes, you'll be telling it your deepest, darkest secrets and confiding in it. Because, I mean, they're basically like Eliza, which was the first sort of AI chatbot was this thing, Eliza, wasn't it? That was the 60s, late 60s, something like that.

It's a sort of chat bot. That's frustrating. When you've got one But by next year, you'll probably have one that within six minutes, you'll be telling it your deepest, darkest secrets and confiding in it. Because, I mean, they're basically like Eliza, which was the first sort of AI chatbot was this thing, Eliza, wasn't it? That was the 60s, late 60s, something like that.

And it was designed to be a sort of... to just do what a basic psychologist would do. And it would just mirror back what you said to it. And there's a sort of famous anecdote about the guy who created Eliza, asked his secretary to test it out. And within about 20 minutes, she asked him to leave the room because she was telling it things that were private.

And it was designed to be a sort of... to just do what a basic psychologist would do. And it would just mirror back what you said to it. And there's a sort of famous anecdote about the guy who created Eliza, asked his secretary to test it out. And within about 20 minutes, she asked him to leave the room because she was telling it things that were private.

And all that was was a very basic bit of code that would go, hello, what's your name? And you'd say, my name's Charlie. And it would say, how are you feeling today? And you'd go, quite sad. And it would go, oh, Charlie, why are you feeling quite sad? And then before you know it, you're regurgitating your soul. And so they'll probably get to that point where you'll pay not to speak to a human.

And all that was was a very basic bit of code that would go, hello, what's your name? And you'd say, my name's Charlie. And it would say, how are you feeling today? And you'd go, quite sad. And it would go, oh, Charlie, why are you feeling quite sad? And then before you know it, you're regurgitating your soul. And so they'll probably get to that point where you'll pay not to speak to a human.

And you'll be speaking to her. You'll be sharing your deepest secrets with an AI therapist who's available 24 hours a day.

And you'll be speaking to her. You'll be sharing your deepest secrets with an AI therapist who's available 24 hours a day.

I think you're right, but also like people get shocked when I say I've got like, we've got like an Amazon Alexa device in the house. No, you're right.

I think you're right, but also like people get shocked when I say I've got like, we've got like an Amazon Alexa device in the house. No, you're right.

No, people often think it's like me in a wooden shack with foil. Yeah, like you say, foil around. Always foil. There's always foil. Always foil. But if I was sitting there, my computers wouldn't work. I'd be so sad. And so, I mean, I wouldn't say... I mean, the problem is I don't think that... I really do worry.

No, people often think it's like me in a wooden shack with foil. Yeah, like you say, foil around. Always foil. There's always foil. Always foil. But if I was sitting there, my computers wouldn't work. I'd be so sad. And so, I mean, I wouldn't say... I mean, the problem is I don't think that... I really do worry.

I really worry about... Obviously, in the creative industries, I massively worry about what AI could do, as in terms of it's already a tight time. It's already a challenging environment, you might say, and it could wreak real human havoc very quickly. I can also see why... why it's going to be, do you know what I mean?

I really worry about... Obviously, in the creative industries, I massively worry about what AI could do, as in terms of it's already a tight time. It's already a challenging environment, you might say, and it could wreak real human havoc very quickly. I can also see why... why it's going to be, do you know what I mean?

Someone's going to do a movie that's using this generate, like when Toy Story came out and it was the first CGI animated cartoon and everyone went, oh, you can do that? Wow. Okay. And it sort of, you know, we didn't lose the art of hand-drawn animation, but it, it meant that the default for animated films became CGI.

Someone's going to do a movie that's using this generate, like when Toy Story came out and it was the first CGI animated cartoon and everyone went, oh, you can do that? Wow. Okay. And it sort of, you know, we didn't lose the art of hand-drawn animation, but it, it meant that the default for animated films became CGI.

It is, I suppose the worry comes when it's all jobs. That's the problem, but it's basically when it's all careers or jobs, or not all careers or jobs, because, again, I have no idea how this stuff will pan out. Do you know what I mean? I don't actually know, but it's how we find –

It is, I suppose the worry comes when it's all jobs. That's the problem, but it's basically when it's all careers or jobs, or not all careers or jobs, because, again, I have no idea how this stuff will pan out. Do you know what I mean? I don't actually know, but it's how we find –

it's beyond even the financial, obviously the financial impact and how you run like purpose, just what's our, how we find purpose and meaning in what we do. If a lot of what we do is, is, replicated tirelessly by a system. I don't really know what that does to us psychologically.

it's beyond even the financial, obviously the financial impact and how you run like purpose, just what's our, how we find purpose and meaning in what we do. If a lot of what we do is, is, replicated tirelessly by a system. I don't really know what that does to us psychologically.

So I think it's... And again, you could argue, well, maybe I'm only worrying about it now because I'm a writer and I feel like that's under threat. And again, I can see the value in it as a... Like you say, as a tool, I can see the value in... as a tool in a way that an artist would use.

So I think it's... And again, you could argue, well, maybe I'm only worrying about it now because I'm a writer and I feel like that's under threat. And again, I can see the value in it as a... Like you say, as a tool, I can see the value in... as a tool in a way that an artist would use.

So now it's not an American thing because in Britain. My kids, I remember them. They got taught so much about spelling and phrases. I didn't know what they'd come out and go, I've got to do this homework about trigraphs and digraphs.

So now it's not an American thing because in Britain. My kids, I remember them. They got taught so much about spelling and phrases. I didn't know what they'd come out and go, I've got to do this homework about trigraphs and digraphs.

I don't know that we are. I think we're probably not being taught all sorts of other things. British history or whatever. But you get my point.

I don't know that we are. I think we're probably not being taught all sorts of other things. British history or whatever. But you get my point.

And again, I'm- Well, it seems like a net loss that does, because you're probably, it means that you can, you're not, there'll be people who were held back by the fact that they were dyslexic or they just weren't good at one thing and they were excelled at something else. And now it levels the playing field a little more. So that's a good thing.

And again, I'm- Well, it seems like a net loss that does, because you're probably, it means that you can, you're not, there'll be people who were held back by the fact that they were dyslexic or they just weren't good at one thing and they were excelled at something else. And now it levels the playing field a little more. So that's a good thing.

But again, I think the problem is that we're sort of trained, we're naturally sort of analysed everything and think, is this good or bad? And the answer is it's kind of both, isn't it? So it's, so again.

But again, I think the problem is that we're sort of trained, we're naturally sort of analysed everything and think, is this good or bad? And the answer is it's kind of both, isn't it? So it's, so again.

A hammer is a powerful, very useful tool. It can also be a terrifying implement of death. Or a knife. A knife. I mean, you could list every tool in that wheelhouse. And the wheel, you know, someone could drive around your house and Hit the door in. So it is.

A hammer is a powerful, very useful tool. It can also be a terrifying implement of death. Or a knife. A knife. I mean, you could list every tool in that wheelhouse. And the wheel, you know, someone could drive around your house and Hit the door in. So it is.

It's just that it's the pace of it, the dizzying speed with which these things are coming along, I think, is the thing that makes people rightly anxious. But it's also... It is exciting, but it's also... Terrifying at the same time.

It's just that it's the pace of it, the dizzying speed with which these things are coming along, I think, is the thing that makes people rightly anxious. But it's also... It is exciting, but it's also... Terrifying at the same time.

It's often a darkly comedic, because one of the, I think... I mentioned the Twilight Zone. I mentioned sort of weird British TV shows. And I think one of the things that, and I've realized recently how much it influenced Black Mirror, Robocop. The 1980, like 87, was it? Like Robocop, the original Robocop.

It's often a darkly comedic, because one of the, I think... I mentioned the Twilight Zone. I mentioned sort of weird British TV shows. And I think one of the things that, and I've realized recently how much it influenced Black Mirror, Robocop. The 1980, like 87, was it? Like Robocop, the original Robocop.

way ahead of its time. It's a brilliant comedy as well. It's like a really dark comedy in a way that I... I loved it when I was like a teenager. I saw it and wore the VHS out watching it over and over again. And I think a lot of the... Actually, a lot of the comedy sailed over my head. But what I really... The...

way ahead of its time. It's a brilliant comedy as well. It's like a really dark comedy in a way that I... I loved it when I was like a teenager. I saw it and wore the VHS out watching it over and over again. And I think a lot of the... Actually, a lot of the comedy sailed over my head. But what I really... The...

sort of the dystopian commodification of everything that was going on, and that was excellently done. I have to say, as a Brit, it was fairly very heavily influenced by Judge Dredd, which was a British comic strip. What do you mean? Dystopian.

sort of the dystopian commodification of everything that was going on, and that was excellently done. I have to say, as a Brit, it was fairly very heavily influenced by Judge Dredd, which was a British comic strip. What do you mean? Dystopian.

Yes. So, but there's always been something, I think at heart, and again, this is not what I sit down thinking when coming up with a Black Mirror story. I don't think this is what I want to write about. It actually, it's looking back, you go, oh, that's what it's about. Almost every episode is about what's real and authentic in some way, you could argue.

Yes. So, but there's always been something, I think at heart, and again, this is not what I sit down thinking when coming up with a Black Mirror story. I don't think this is what I want to write about. It actually, it's looking back, you go, oh, that's what it's about. Almost every episode is about what's real and authentic in some way, you could argue.

Almost every episode we do, ultimately that's it. Whether it's a story where it's people passed into a sort of VR simulation of something or it's... you know, a character who is suddenly having to spout sales pitches in their everyday life. It's kind of always about what's authentic. And that's something that's kind of under assault all the time.

Almost every episode we do, ultimately that's it. Whether it's a story where it's people passed into a sort of VR simulation of something or it's... you know, a character who is suddenly having to spout sales pitches in their everyday life. It's kind of always about what's authentic. And that's something that's kind of under assault all the time.

No, we don't. I suppose it's because, again, it's usually, even when we've done stories where there's a hugely, you know, we're taking huge liberties with what is, you know, we're showing things that probably will never quite be possible, or we're showing people kind of uploading their stoles, or, you know. But you kind of always want to keep one foot on the ground. I think that's just my...

No, we don't. I suppose it's because, again, it's usually, even when we've done stories where there's a hugely, you know, we're taking huge liberties with what is, you know, we're showing things that probably will never quite be possible, or we're showing people kind of uploading their stoles, or, you know. But you kind of always want to keep one foot on the ground. I think that's just my...

personal taste is more the Robocop end of sci-fi than it is the Star Wars end of sci-fi, which is more space opera in a far-flung future. And it's more akin to fantasy. So I'm more sort of that kind of... Oh, this could happen at the end of my street. If things go badly wrong, I tend to respond more to that, I think as a viewer.

personal taste is more the Robocop end of sci-fi than it is the Star Wars end of sci-fi, which is more space opera in a far-flung future. And it's more akin to fantasy. So I'm more sort of that kind of... Oh, this could happen at the end of my street. If things go badly wrong, I tend to respond more to that, I think as a viewer.

And so that's probably why that's where we probably operate most strongly.

And so that's probably why that's where we probably operate most strongly.

It's predominantly me guessing. Basically, it's me guessing or extrapolating, or usually you're not even thinking of technology when you start thinking about it. You're thinking of... something else. And then you realize that you can use, you can give it's all, it would almost be a supernatural story, except you can, give it a sort of technological explanation.

It's predominantly me guessing. Basically, it's me guessing or extrapolating, or usually you're not even thinking of technology when you start thinking about it. You're thinking of... something else. And then you realize that you can use, you can give it's all, it would almost be a supernatural story, except you can, give it a sort of technological explanation.

We did an episode last season, we did an episode called Joan is Awful, where it's a woman called Joan, played by Annie Murphy, switches on the TV and sees the streaming platform that's showing a drama, a dramatization of her life starring Salma Hayek. And that's a very Twilight Zone story in many ways. In the Twilight Zone, it would have been like magic or it would have been the uncanny.

We did an episode last season, we did an episode called Joan is Awful, where it's a woman called Joan, played by Annie Murphy, switches on the TV and sees the streaming platform that's showing a drama, a dramatization of her life starring Salma Hayek. And that's a very Twilight Zone story in many ways. In the Twilight Zone, it would have been like magic or it would have been the uncanny.

We can sort of say it's AI deepfake video. It's that. So you're sort of coming at it from that angle. I probably should go and speak to more sort of tech. Because sometimes there's things like, sometimes there's things where I've put it in the episode thinking I'm being very clever here. And then you realize, oh, it's actually the honeybees. We did an episode in season...

We can sort of say it's AI deepfake video. It's that. So you're sort of coming at it from that angle. I probably should go and speak to more sort of tech. Because sometimes there's things like, sometimes there's things where I've put it in the episode thinking I'm being very clever here. And then you realize, oh, it's actually the honeybees. We did an episode in season...

three um called hated in the nation which is where we first had these drone uh autonomous drone miniature honeybees that were going around replaced because i'd read something about honeybees dying out right and um colony collapse and then and and then i thought oh well what if you had little miniature drone ones that could fly around and um pollinate flowers and i thought i was being very clever and then discovered that i think that the experiment had been running for

three um called hated in the nation which is where we first had these drone uh autonomous drone miniature honeybees that were going around replaced because i'd read something about honeybees dying out right and um colony collapse and then and and then i thought oh well what if you had little miniature drone ones that could fly around and um pollinate flowers and i thought i was being very clever and then discovered that i think that the experiment had been running for

Well, the most unusual one. Well, there's definitely this. Okay, so there's an episode we did back in season two called Be Right Back, where it's Hayley Atwell and Donald Gleeson, and Hayley plays this woman called Martha whose husband dies in an accident. It's almost a companion piece to Common People this season. Yep. And anyway, she is off a date. She's missing him.

Well, the most unusual one. Well, there's definitely this. Okay, so there's an episode we did back in season two called Be Right Back, where it's Hayley Atwell and Donald Gleeson, and Hayley plays this woman called Martha whose husband dies in an accident. It's almost a companion piece to Common People this season. Yep. And anyway, she is off a date. She's missing him.

She's discovered she's pregnant. She's desperate to just be able to, if only he knew this, only she could talk to him. She's offered this service, which allows her to communicate with him from, and it's an AI that's based on his social media output. I didn't realize at the time, It felt to me like something that would become possible.

She's discovered she's pregnant. She's desperate to just be able to, if only he knew this, only she could talk to him. She's offered this service, which allows her to communicate with him from, and it's an AI that's based on his social media output. I didn't realize at the time, It felt to me like something that would become possible.

I didn't realize how closely that mimics what large language models and that's now a service.

I didn't realize how closely that mimics what large language models and that's now a service.

That's difficult, isn't it?

That's difficult, isn't it?

Because what you're describing there, that's what, that's the, that's the, that sounds like the high-tech equivalent of, it's almost like, it's like when you, you know, you could read the diaries of Samuel Pepys in the sort of whatever century and you get, and suddenly that period of history becomes alive and you feel, because you were hearing somebody's thoughts in the mind.

Because what you're describing there, that's what, that's the, that's the, that sounds like the high-tech equivalent of, it's almost like, it's like when you, you know, you could read the diaries of Samuel Pepys in the sort of whatever century and you get, and suddenly that period of history becomes alive and you feel, because you were hearing somebody's thoughts in the mind.

I can see that he's recounting what happened to him. If you're talking about rebuilt, like Steve Jobs, would you, would the, would he have left enough information behind for you to get his, how he would innovate ideas and how he would create things? I, don't know. I hadn't really thought about the educational uses of that as a platform, but it's quite fascinating.

I can see that he's recounting what happened to him. If you're talking about rebuilt, like Steve Jobs, would you, would the, would he have left enough information behind for you to get his, how he would innovate ideas and how he would create things? I, don't know. I hadn't really thought about the educational uses of that as a platform, but it's quite fascinating.

in their own life. Because what you see very quickly when people talk to chatbots, effectively AIs, is they get attached very quickly. They can become confidants very quickly.

in their own life. Because what you see very quickly when people talk to chatbots, effectively AIs, is they get attached very quickly. They can become confidants very quickly.

But isn't that a good thing that we're trusting? Isn't that nice about us? Yeah, as long as we're not being taken advantage of, yeah. Well, you don't want to become... Why am I saying you don't want to become too cynical? But it's... So I can... Again, it's... it's interesting that you can, that's interesting.

But isn't that a good thing that we're trusting? Isn't that nice about us? Yeah, as long as we're not being taken advantage of, yeah. Well, you don't want to become... Why am I saying you don't want to become too cynical? But it's... So I can... Again, it's... it's interesting that you can, that's interesting.

That's not, that's a use I haven't really thought about, but it's bringing history alive, bringing history alive and bringing and making it personal in a way that that feels to me like that's, yeah, that's, that's interesting. But again, how do you, there's so many things to navigate there and so many ways that could be kind of veer into places you didn't anticipate.

That's not, that's a use I haven't really thought about, but it's bringing history alive, bringing history alive and bringing and making it personal in a way that that feels to me like that's, yeah, that's, that's interesting. But again, how do you, there's so many things to navigate there and so many ways that could be kind of veer into places you didn't anticipate.

That's the sort of... You see, this is why tech companies, I think... like what you were saying, my, sometimes when, occasionally when I've like spoken at sort of events where there's a bit like my advice, whenever I'm asked, well, what should tech companies do? I think employ comedy writers is my advice.

That's the sort of... You see, this is why tech companies, I think... like what you were saying, my, sometimes when, occasionally when I've like spoken at sort of events where there's a bit like my advice, whenever I'm asked, well, what should tech companies do? I think employ comedy writers is my advice.

Employ neurotic comedy writers who are going to horror writers or just dramatic writers, employ them to sit in a room and work out the worst way. What are the worst ways that people write? Yeah. what was the worst that could happen? Because I think often people who, people who just, people who innovate in a different way, they probably have to blank that out when they're, do you know what I mean?

Employ neurotic comedy writers who are going to horror writers or just dramatic writers, employ them to sit in a room and work out the worst way. What are the worst ways that people write? Yeah. what was the worst that could happen? Because I think often people who, people who just, people who innovate in a different way, they probably have to blank that out when they're, do you know what I mean?

Like on some, like inventors probably have to not think about that too much in order to push forward.

Like on some, like inventors probably have to not think about that too much in order to push forward.

Flesh breaks on the wonderful digital utopia that they will usher in as if we could just shut up and lie down. Right. Let the, let the computer we steamroller just plow all over us. That's kind of losing sight of what the point of it all is, isn't it? Correct.

Flesh breaks on the wonderful digital utopia that they will usher in as if we could just shut up and lie down. Right. Let the, let the computer we steamroller just plow all over us. That's kind of losing sight of what the point of it all is, isn't it? Correct.

Yeah, some really great speculative, like, do you know what I mean? Like, just some great sort of, and tied to really patchy stories.

Yeah, some really great speculative, like, do you know what I mean? Like, just some great sort of, and tied to really patchy stories.

I mean, Jesus. Yes. I do. I think so. But it's – you can't – again, it's like I am not a Luddite. I can't embrace the – I'm not the – like I said, I'm probably a worried centrist when it comes to tech in the future in that I am –

I mean, Jesus. Yes. I do. I think so. But it's – you can't – again, it's like I am not a Luddite. I can't embrace the – I'm not the – like I said, I'm probably a worried centrist when it comes to tech in the future in that I am –

an admirer of technology i'm a i appreciate it i'm awestruck by it i like it i fear it and i fear the consequences of us clumsily misusing it but that's not a reason to not it's It's just really difficult. And the problem is we are, we're living in a, again, we're living through, if the printing press caused all sorts of ruptures, we're living through a sort of accelerated process of that.

an admirer of technology i'm a i appreciate it i'm awestruck by it i like it i fear it and i fear the consequences of us clumsily misusing it but that's not a reason to not it's It's just really difficult. And the problem is we are, we're living in a, again, we're living through, if the printing press caused all sorts of ruptures, we're living through a sort of accelerated process of that.

But again, it will feel normal. Is it like, it's about how long would you say things have felt dizzyingly futuristic? Yeah.

But again, it will feel normal. Is it like, it's about how long would you say things have felt dizzyingly futuristic? Yeah.

You've lost it. You haven't got the benefit of hindsight. Well, you haven't got the benefit of wisdom. You're just sort of setting your ways and cranking.

You've lost it. You haven't got the benefit of hindsight. Well, you haven't got the benefit of wisdom. You're just sort of setting your ways and cranking.

There's a day you wake up one day and that's happened to you.

There's a day you wake up one day and that's happened to you.

Like, you know, because, you know, it's like... This is like a Black Mirror concept you're outlining here. It's like one day, it's like you get, I'm sorry. What if you actually know what day it is?

Like, you know, because, you know, it's like... This is like a Black Mirror concept you're outlining here. It's like one day, it's like you get, I'm sorry. What if you actually know what day it is?

You know what? I've always been, I am that person and I've always been that person. I'm the person who has to get to the airport really, really early.

You know what? I've always been, I am that person and I've always been that person. I'm the person who has to get to the airport really, really early.

no you're not no because no because well i think it's because i i used to be a really nervous flyer and it was the one do you mean so i think it's that it's a control the acclimated you needed to get acclimated yeah one late i wanted to yes exactly so i needed to feel like it wasn't suddenly sprung on me that i had to run and and catch a plane but um no so i i again i i think that

no you're not no because no because well i think it's because i i used to be a really nervous flyer and it was the one do you mean so i think it's that it's a control the acclimated you needed to get acclimated yeah one late i wanted to yes exactly so i needed to feel like it wasn't suddenly sprung on me that i had to run and and catch a plane but um no so i i again i i think that

It feels like there's a sort of dizzying pace of change, and that's incredibly destabilizing. I have no idea how it's going to pan out. But yes, my kids, I've got a 13-year-old and an 11-year-old, both boys, and they- It's all normal to them. Take all of this in their stride. Yeah, they're totally like-

It feels like there's a sort of dizzying pace of change, and that's incredibly destabilizing. I have no idea how it's going to pan out. But yes, my kids, I've got a 13-year-old and an 11-year-old, both boys, and they- It's all normal to them. Take all of this in their stride. Yeah, they're totally like-

So they'll be much better at, you hope, this is the thing. So obviously, because the next, it feels like the next thing, apart from AI coming to take all our jobs. Or make a super bad one, like is, you know, a sort of huge wave of sort of misinformation, video, just dividing us even more than we are already, where there's already competing versions of reality.

So they'll be much better at, you hope, this is the thing. So obviously, because the next, it feels like the next thing, apart from AI coming to take all our jobs. Or make a super bad one, like is, you know, a sort of huge wave of sort of misinformation, video, just dividing us even more than we are already, where there's already competing versions of reality.

And those are both now going to have 24-hour visuals to go with them. What do you blame for that? Yeah.

And those are both now going to have 24-hour visuals to go with them. What do you blame for that? Yeah.

Is it all right to blame everyone or both of them?

Is it all right to blame everyone or both of them?

I think it's not, because again, it wouldn't, it's, but again, will that mean that the next generation will it mean just that what happens when, because at the same time, also you're seeing videos where, you know, someone could, you could see a video where somebody turned into a plate of spaghetti and meatballs sort of thing.

I think it's not, because again, it wouldn't, it's, but again, will that mean that the next generation will it mean just that what happens when, because at the same time, also you're seeing videos where, you know, someone could, you could see a video where somebody turned into a plate of spaghetti and meatballs sort of thing.

So, you know, that things can be like, it can be surreal and strange, but completely photographically convincing, but you know, it couldn't have. So, so will the next generation just learn to not trust anything at all?

So, you know, that things can be like, it can be surreal and strange, but completely photographically convincing, but you know, it couldn't have. So, so will the next generation just learn to not trust anything at all?

How do they stay sane on a local basis?

How do they stay sane on a local basis?

That's terrifying, and I don't know... I don't know how that isn't... I hate to say likely, but I don't know how that...

That's terrifying, and I don't know... I don't know how that isn't... I hate to say likely, but I don't know how that...

Well, and there's already a lot of people who believe we're already there and that everything is a lie and that everything... So, yeah, I don't... No, that worries me. If there's no consensus on what is real or has been real, how do we cope with giant climate problems that are going to come our way? How do we cope with when there's a big problem?

Well, and there's already a lot of people who believe we're already there and that everything is a lie and that everything... So, yeah, I don't... No, that worries me. If there's no consensus on what is real or has been real, how do we cope with giant climate problems that are going to come our way? How do we cope with when there's a big problem?

You know, like I say, I'm an anxious sort of... I can be an anxious apocalyptic worrier. When the pandemic happened, I was sort of comparatively calm because... I thought we were handling it quite well.

You know, like I say, I'm an anxious sort of... I can be an anxious apocalyptic worrier. When the pandemic happened, I was sort of comparatively calm because... I thought we were handling it quite well.

Well, we all had a reclusive life.

Well, we all had a reclusive life.

That side of things was that we were all worried, and we all... You know, generally speaking, people were, it felt, looking out for each other. You had the young staying indoors to protect the elderly. You had sort of, you know, you had actually more. And there were some cranky people about it.

That side of things was that we were all worried, and we all... You know, generally speaking, people were, it felt, looking out for each other. You had the young staying indoors to protect the elderly. You had sort of, you know, you had actually more. And there were some cranky people about it.

It's, it's, it's, but it's, it's, it's, so in a way.

It's, it's, it's, but it's, it's, it's, so in a way.

In a way it was sort of like, it wasn't that it wasn't, you know what I mean? We, we, we, so you'd sort of hope that we, when Facebook, because we are, again, I'm not the voice of optimism, but you know, we are pretty incredible people. creatures.

In a way it was sort of like, it wasn't that it wasn't, you know what I mean? We, we, we, so you'd sort of hope that we, when Facebook, because we are, again, I'm not the voice of optimism, but you know, we are pretty incredible people. creatures.

We're so resilient. So we're just going to have to navigate that world. And so how we... I don't know how we counter... How we counter a sort of cynical destruction of all sort of consensus on what reality is, I don't know. You sort of have to hope that we won't just end up tearing each other's flesh and fighting in the streets sort of thing. You have to hope that.

We're so resilient. So we're just going to have to navigate that world. And so how we... I don't know how we counter... How we counter a sort of cynical destruction of all sort of consensus on what reality is, I don't know. You sort of have to hope that we won't just end up tearing each other's flesh and fighting in the streets sort of thing. You have to hope that.

And again, we didn't do... The pandemic could have been... Get load worse than we could have behaved in a much more venal way.

And again, we didn't do... The pandemic could have been... Get load worse than we could have behaved in a much more venal way.

Well, no, I think, well, no, don't get me wrong. I like, I can absolutely have total moments of complete and utter staring into the abyss sort of to awake at 4am. Right. You know, the sort of carnival of horrible thoughts going through your head and you worry desperately about your children and you worry desperately about the future and where are things going? So I can absolutely do all of that.

Well, no, I think, well, no, don't get me wrong. I like, I can absolutely have total moments of complete and utter staring into the abyss sort of to awake at 4am. Right. You know, the sort of carnival of horrible thoughts going through your head and you worry desperately about your children and you worry desperately about the future and where are things going? So I can absolutely do all of that.

And, and, And oddly, the more of us who are worried, the better. Oh, I agree. I agree with that. I think that was the thing with the pandemic that really struck me was I was one of these people who, as soon as the first reports, I remember I was on holiday over Christmas when that happened. There were reports of like, there's something going around. There's a virus.

And, and, And oddly, the more of us who are worried, the better. Oh, I agree. I agree with that. I think that was the thing with the pandemic that really struck me was I was one of these people who, as soon as the first reports, I remember I was on holiday over Christmas when that happened. There were reports of like, there's something going around. There's a virus.

There's something, respiratory illness in China and blah, blah, blah. And I thought, that's going to come. That's going to sweep. We're going to get that. I don't like the look of that. And I was really worried about it. At the point when everyone was worried about it, I can kind of...

There's something, respiratory illness in China and blah, blah, blah. And I thought, that's going to come. That's going to sweep. We're going to get that. I don't like the look of that. And I was really worried about it. At the point when everyone was worried about it, I can kind of...

the dread in me drops a little because there's nothing more scary than thinking everyone else is being blasé and complacent about something that's worrying you. It's the wasp at the picnic that no one else is... I'm the one who can't relax if there's one wasp at the picnic. And if everyone's worried about the wasp, you move the bloody picnic blanket somewhere else or someone catches it in a glass.

the dread in me drops a little because there's nothing more scary than thinking everyone else is being blasé and complacent about something that's worrying you. It's the wasp at the picnic that no one else is... I'm the one who can't relax if there's one wasp at the picnic. And if everyone's worried about the wasp, you move the bloody picnic blanket somewhere else or someone catches it in a glass.

And so you kind of have to hope that our survival instinct will... realize that we need more of us we need as many of us as possible to survive and that i don't know i don't know i don't know um are you uh are you gonna is this is this uh ever stop in your head do you think you'll always be show or this show the world um the i would i'd like to think it's something that can keep

And so you kind of have to hope that our survival instinct will... realize that we need more of us we need as many of us as possible to survive and that i don't know i don't know i don't know um are you uh are you gonna is this is this uh ever stop in your head do you think you'll always be show or this show the world um the i would i'd like to think it's something that can keep

can keep morphing, can keep... We've done... We keep... You know, I keep changing... I keep doing different types of episodes. We've done a sequel for the first time. We've done an interactive one a few years ago. You can do sort of feature-length ones and short ones. So I kind of think it's something that can be oddly... that can be very reactive to... what's going on.

can keep morphing, can keep... We've done... We keep... You know, I keep changing... I keep doing different types of episodes. We've done a sequel for the first time. We've done an interactive one a few years ago. You can do sort of feature-length ones and short ones. So I kind of think it's something that can be oddly... that can be very reactive to... what's going on.

Hopefully it's a weird, it's like I said, it's a very odd show to do. I'm aware that also it's a bit like being in a band where we did a load of punk singles early on. And so you get some sort of fans who just want you to do punk singles, but we also did some that are a bit more like big love ballads or something that were also really popular. And so now you're kind of trying to, so I have to not,

Hopefully it's a weird, it's like I said, it's a very odd show to do. I'm aware that also it's a bit like being in a band where we did a load of punk singles early on. And so you get some sort of fans who just want you to do punk singles, but we also did some that are a bit more like big love ballads or something that were also really popular. And so now you're kind of trying to, so I have to not,

I think my mental trick is to not think too much about what fans of the show expect and just write and write what I'm interested in.

I think my mental trick is to not think too much about what fans of the show expect and just write and write what I'm interested in.

We have. Because we don't tend to have the same characters from episode to episode. We have less of that in that people don't, like, usually, our characters are absolutely broken by the time the credits roll. So people don't quite... It's a different dynamic, I guess, from on a big, you know, like Game of Thrones or, you know, like some huge show like that.

We have. Because we don't tend to have the same characters from episode to episode. We have less of that in that people don't, like, usually, our characters are absolutely broken by the time the credits roll. So people don't quite... It's a different dynamic, I guess, from on a big, you know, like Game of Thrones or, you know, like some huge show like that.

As long as people will... as long as I can keep coming up with ideas and people keep wanting to look at them.

As long as people will... as long as I can keep coming up with ideas and people keep wanting to look at them.

And as long as I don't get out-competed by some AI, as long as they're not just staring into some holographic box in a few years, like just shouting, and that's just staring at them and looking at their facial expression and thinking, here's an image you'll like to see for the next two seconds.

And as long as I don't get out-competed by some AI, as long as they're not just staring into some holographic box in a few years, like just shouting, and that's just staring at them and looking at their facial expression and thinking, here's an image you'll like to see for the next two seconds.

And they're just sort of seeing some kind of constant deep fake three-dimensional TikTok that's being blasted at them. which is probably 95% certain to happen.

And they're just sort of seeing some kind of constant deep fake three-dimensional TikTok that's being blasted at them. which is probably 95% certain to happen.

Well, again, we did this thing, we did this thing, yeah, in the Common People episode, like Chris O'Dowd's character, Mike, has to pay, he has to try and pay for the subscription by kind of debasing himself on this online platform.

Well, again, we did this thing, we did this thing, yeah, in the Common People episode, like Chris O'Dowd's character, Mike, has to pay, he has to try and pay for the subscription by kind of debasing himself on this online platform.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's very cynical, but probably accurate.

That's very cynical, but probably accurate.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Yes. It was like a moonshot. It was like having to come up with ballpoint pens. And everybody had to come up with... Asteroids needed to be right in space. So... Yeah. And it made, yeah, it made all sorts of things. It was a big, but also I don't think we still unpacked actually psychologically what it did to us all.

Yes. It was like a moonshot. It was like having to come up with ballpoint pens. And everybody had to come up with... Asteroids needed to be right in space. So... Yeah. And it made, yeah, it made all sorts of things. It was a big, but also I don't think we still unpacked actually psychologically what it did to us all.

No, we're a bit better than... Again, it's like... The thing that struck me was how the number of times you'd see, and I've written a zombie movie where it's like, you know, society collapses within 20 minutes of this sort of calamity. And that isn't what happened. Like in the pandemic scenario, that isn't what happened.

No, we're a bit better than... Again, it's like... The thing that struck me was how the number of times you'd see, and I've written a zombie movie where it's like, you know, society collapses within 20 minutes of this sort of calamity. And that isn't what happened. Like in the pandemic scenario, that isn't what happened.

We were out in Britain, we were out banging saucepans every Thursday in support of the NHS. Although I did read somebody was saying, I think that was actually us banging the saucepans to sort of let other people know we were still there, which made me quite sad. When I read that, it was probably a more accurate read.

We were out in Britain, we were out banging saucepans every Thursday in support of the NHS. Although I did read somebody was saying, I think that was actually us banging the saucepans to sort of let other people know we were still there, which made me quite sad. When I read that, it was probably a more accurate read.

I hope so. I hope we'll always want messy humans in our creative soup. I don't know if that analogy makes sense, but that's what I've said.

I hope so. I hope we'll always want messy humans in our creative soup. I don't know if that analogy makes sense, but that's what I've said.

Good. Oh, thank you very much. Thank you, sir. That's very kind. Well, there you go.

Good. Oh, thank you very much. Thank you, sir. That's very kind. Well, there you go.

No, I would never... No, I mean, I think that... I mean, that would be nice. If somebody wants to make that comparison, I'm not going to spend four hours trying to desperately talk them out of it. But no, I think he was probably a more astute political writer in many... I mean, I could list all his qualities. I'm being very British about it, aren't I? I'm being very British and self-deprecating.

No, I'm not fit to...

I suppose it depends. What do you mean in terms of what do you mean? What do you mean by that? In that he wrote 1984 and it was.

Probably, I suppose, probably. And I'd probably be moaning that his show was doing better than mine or something. Yes, maybe. Maybe, I suppose. It's interesting because I do...

it's generally it's an odd it's an odd black mirror is a weird show in that i i don't see it as the job of the show to like be a sort of warning i feel like 1984 was probably more felt like a warning more overtly wow a lot of people watch you uh i think watch these episodes and view it as a warning you don't view it that's interesting well i don't

I suppose maybe I don't explicitly set out to be a warning because I may... What it probably is, and a psychologist could probably... would probably be able to work out what it is better than me. It's probably, I'm a worrier. I'm quite an anxious and neurotic person, but I've also got a background in comedy. Right. Why often it's me kind of worrying out loud.

Sometimes the episodes are kind of me worrying out loud. Sometimes I'm trying to Sometimes it's actually coming from a sort of really darkly comic place that we then play straight in the show itself. So I'm sort of, but predominantly I'm trying to entertain more than I'm trying to warn. And if I'm trying to warn, I'm not always, I wouldn't necessarily boil it down to a specific warning.

The one thing that frustrates me is when people say it's a warning about technology, which I really don't think that the show is.

No, it's a, what am I talking about? No, it's, no, it's, well, okay. So it definitely, it's, it's more about people. I think, I think because I think what the show, I'm actually impressed by technology in my everyday life. I think technology is amazing. And I used to be a video games journalist. I'm quite. So you're not at, you're not enough. You don't have a phobia.

I don't have a phobia about, I'm impressed and amazed by technology. And I tend to be an early adopter of, well, certainly like video game consoles and things like that. So I'm sort of like a tech enthusiast in many ways. And I think, but I, but like I say, I am a worrier and I think that I am often awestruck by what technology can do. And then that naturally leads you to worry about the,

implications of a powerful tool because it's a powerful tool and and we're we're amazing creatures because we created these tools, but we're also, there's loads of us and we can be clumsy. We can be, we've got faults, we've got flaws.

And so we can, so it's sort of, so if there's any sort of parable going on, it's really usually in our stories, it's usually a sort of active human clumsiness or an active human impulsiveness or greed or jealousy or something like that, that actually is the downfall of the character.

Well, I mean, you could argue that that's cynical or unfortunately... True. Yes, realistic. And it's interesting that... where that story came about, that came about from me listening to a podcast. I heard this story. I'm glad you're telling it. I find it fascinating. Explain. Well, so I was listening to a podcast.

I listen to a lot of podcasts, and when the host has to do an immediate pivot into a sales pitch, it always – it strikes me as – It's really quite weird when they go from talking very naturally into a slightly more robotic kind of sales.

Right here. And I think I'd listened to like a true crime podcast and the guy was sort of recounting some grisly, like terrible, terrible incident and then sort of had to suddenly pivot into pitching a sort of food delivery company, like kind of seamlessly. And this struck me as darkly hilarious. And so going into that podcast,

I thought, okay, here's a, here's a, that's a very Black Mirror-y idea because I'd been thinking about, well, what if you had a service that could kind of stream part of your brain? Like, you know what I mean? If you lose part of your brain that was a backup, it can stream it to you, but you've got all these issues to do with coverage, cell coverage. Right.

And then the idea of adverts, that became a funny and quite dystopian thought. And so I approached that story thinking, this is going to be a comedy. And it is a comedy until it isn't. And I think that's why it's quite, um, I think obviously in that episode, I think it's a very powerful episode.

I think, um, Chris and Rashida and Tracy who are starring it and Ali Panku, the director, I think everybody did an amazing job and it's like slightly wrong foot to you. Cause it looks like it's going to be a comedic story. Yeah. And then it, the logic of the cold logic of it gets more and more inescapable. Um,

And I think that's quite often, that's my, that's not my happy place, but that's my natural, I'm trying not to say wheelhouse. Don't like that phrase. I don't even know what wheelhouse is. What is a wheelhouse? I guess where they housed wheels.

Right, you're right. We've all been saying it and none of us know. So I quite like taking a premise that's sort of comic and then you find the sort of, sometimes the horror angle, sometimes we've done episodes that are more optimistic. But I suppose there, what am I saying, that I...

it you realize then that you've got a story that is actually commenting on on lots of things the health care health care and um health care just general cost of living and the fairness of health care right like we we all know we we come up with these amazing cures or there's medicine out there but only for those that can afford it so Yeah, I obviously have a slightly different perspective.

I'm in the UK and I can't imagine. So I have, you know, we have the NHS here, which is free at the point of use, all of that. So Breaking Bad wouldn't have really worked here as a show. Like if you said it in the UK, because Walter White would go and get treatment. Now the NHS has all sorts of faults, but you would go and get... life-saving treatment very quickly.

Um, and you wouldn't be bankrupted for that here. So, um, so, so, um, so, so sometimes you, you realize, oh, I'm commenting on that. I didn't, I didn't realize when I, when I walked into this sort of room narratively, I didn't realize that it was also full of all of this stuff. And so you kind of realize you're in quite a rich, um, environment in a way.

So, so you can, and you can comment on lots of things. And also that episode is, am I allowed to, what, what's the language like on this web, on this podcast? We don't, we don't. Well, it's not, it's not a massively offensive word. Have you heard the word in shitification? In shitification. I have heard that. Yeah.

So that's, it's not my friend, Corey Doctorow, who's this writer who coined this phrase in shitification. And I was thinking also of that, which is the process by which platforms or services, the experience for the user degrades over time because the company has to make a profit. It's the story of everything.

Yeah. Kind of and well, and kind of sort of everything, sort of everything. And it's hard to leave. As a user, it's hard to leave. So actually, it's a bit like because you remember this. You're right, because you also remember when it was good. Yeah. It's like being trapped in a loveless marriage. It's sort of like it's like you're trapped in this. You entered into it. It was fun.

I don't know what you're talking about. My wife doesn't know what I'm talking about. No, but as a metaphor, it's like a... Not what you thought you were getting into at the start, and you can't see... social media, all sorts of platform. You can't see a way you're addicted to it now as well. Or smoking, smoking as well. It's like, no, it's bad. Yeah. No, it's bad. And it's, it's more ish.

Um, yeah.

So my career path is weird. And again, it sort of slightly makes sense in retrospect. So I was a cartoonist, first of all. I was a cartoonist. Then I was a video games journalist. Then I was sort of doing a website. Then I was working in comedy, and I was writing for The Guardian. But I was doing, like, TV reviews. And I never considered myself a journalist.

I would write columns, and I would write TV reviews. But I always considered myself a bit of a clown, really. Do you know what I mean? Like, I was attempting to do comedy bits. I was always writing... comedy. And then I'd had an idea for, we did a show. I had an idea for a show in the UK, which took a comic premise and then played it straight. It was a zombie show.

And the premise was that there's a series of the TV show, the season of Big Brother, the reality show, which at the time was absolutely massive in the UK. And the premise was there was a season of Big Brother.

And what if there was a zombie apocalypse broke out during this and the people in the Big Brother house who had been chosen by producers to argue and fight and not get along are sort of the only people left alive in the whole of Britain. And then I thought the other fun thing was I was a fan of sort of horror and zombie things.

I thought, well, what if we, and then what if we play it straight was the other sort of the idea. And we did that and it went down,

um really well it was like really successful and then so the chat it was channel four in the uk said well what else would you like to do and i'd always been an admirer of the twilight zone and we had a show in the uk tales of the unexpected which was short role doll stories the bbc often used to when i was growing up they put out these really bizarre sort of one-off plays sometimes about you couldn't kind of you'd go into school the next day like did

you see that thing? Well, man fell in love with a tree or whatever, you know, it's like crazy sort of avant-garde place. And then really terrifying films about nuclear war and stuff like this. And, um, and so I, I, I, so I sort of, that was what I pitched. And it was originally the idea. It didn't have the technological focus so much the original pitch. It was more, um,

I was interested in... I read about Rod Serling, who created the Twilight Zone. Yes. And I read... So I read a sort of biography about him. And I didn't... I hadn't appreciated... The Twilight Zone was always niche in the UK. You had to see it. It was like late at night. It was like 10.30 p.m. or 11 p.m. like tucked away on a channel at random times. And...

but it would still really stand up and speak to me. And I hadn't appreciated that Rod Serling was a, I'd only known him as the guy from the Twilight Zone, that he was, when the Twilight Zone was first announced, people were going, why on earth is he debasing himself doing a show? He's a serious playwright. He's a serious writer.

Why is he doing a silly show about, it looks like this is going to be about UFOs and little green men and aliens and different dimensions. And, of course, it was because it meant he could talk about the issues of the day without being censored because he could address things as metaphor. But also to a kid watching it, it was just, that's cool.

Like a chilling sort of story where it's got a mind-mangling twist and that's just really cool. And so that was the impetus, was to do something that was a bit like that, but about now. And then I kind of... the more I thought about it, I thought, well, what would Rod Serling be writing about now?

Well, it would be technology and it would be, but again, at the time, at the time it was, so I, at the time the show first, at the time the show was first conceived, the view of technology was very, very positive. Very positive.

I think generally we thought these iPhones and smartphones were brilliant and social media had helped bring about the Arab Spring and it was going to wash her in a new era of diplomacy and democracy. And we're all going to talk to each other.

And the biggest complaint anyone had about social media was that it was full of people posting photos of their breakfast and talking about my issue in their life and being a little narcissistic, not unhinged enough. It wasn't this sort of unhinged vortex of anger and hatred.

But because it seemed so rosy, the portrayal of it seemed so rosy and it made me... The anxious, neurotic person in me was immediately distrustful and scared, if you see what I mean. Because you kind of think...

I'm probably more of a boring centrist in a way, in terms of like, so I can worry, again, like I can, I have a natural tendency to worry about anything. I can leap over five lily pads over to immediate destruction and the apocalypse very quickly. You could show me a spoon and I would worry about terrible things that someone could do with that spoon.

And so I can totally, with AI, I can absolutely understand all the terrifying implications and it's the unknown, isn't it, really? We don't know. But you can also see Okay, there's myriad opportunities. It is an amazing tool. And we're not going to – we can't really put the genie back in the bottle. We've invented this. Yes, I worry about, you know, if you're in a kind of AI arms race, then –

obviously there's an impetus to, and people start thinking that guardrails are slowing them down and there's a reason to, you know, dismantle any guardrails that there are. I think kind of like anything, the printing press was an amazing, like one of the most amazing inventions in history, caused all sorts of, upheaval because suddenly you had this way that ideas could be disseminated.

Obviously, no one would say the printing press was a bad invention.

No, and actually, that's a good example of a extremely, in a way, very positively disruptive technology that probably obviously clearly did a lot more harm than good. You can bet somebody put on a pair of eyeglasses and went, right, I don't like that guy over there. Oh, man, I didn't realize how much I didn't like. Yeah, it ended a lot of marriages. I don't like my neighbor. Yeah, so...

But I guess with AI, you can see that the potential is incredible. The potential for it as a tool is incredible. The obvious worry I think that we all have is, is that guy going to take my job? Is that guy going to take my job? And then is that guy going to... run things from that. Is that guy going to be my boss? Not just take my job, but going to be my boss.

And how, how do we manage that if that's the case? And I don't know, I don't, I think like any writer, you, you look at, uh, like something like chat GPT and you are, it's worrisome. It's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a worry. And you worry about, um, If we end up replacing... I'm talking creatively.

If you end up replacing... If any creative work is one human attempting to communicate with other humans, if you take the human out of one end of that pipe, I don't know what... You've got a different... I think you've got a different form. You've got a different thing that I don't know what that is.

I think if you start replacing writers in your, well, weirdly, we don't actually have a writing room on Black Mirror. We sometimes have written- Yeah, what do you do?

Well, no, it's just I'm walking around. Occasionally, so I've collaborated with, right, so there's two of the episodes this season are co-written, but we don't have like a formal writing room where people are sort of pitching ideas and stuff. Usually what's happening is I'm wandering around thinking – I've got nuggets of idea and then they'll sort of coalesce at some point.

If that makes it like, or suddenly I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll think, Oh, I know I want to do a story about this and I want to do a story with, and I, and here's a cool scene. I've got this, or here's a moment I want to do, but I don't, I don't know what the story is. And then I'll see something else or I'll think of something. And that will pause me to knit those ideas together.

Now, whether I could do, regurgitate all those ideas into AI and go, can you see connections between them? I probably could do that. Would it... Would it, that's a scary, again, there's a good Roald Dahl story about that, about an automated writing machine with pedals for, that's a scary, are you hastening your own demise by doing that?

Certainly I can see, obviously when ChatGPT first launched, the first thing I did was you say to it, go on then, tell me a Black Mirror type idea. And it started coming out with something that initially you go, oh God, that's, Okay, that sounds plausible. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It sounded plausible, but it was also the more, so you get immediate, as you're watching the sentences come in, you have an immediate, like, Jesus Christ, you know, oh my God, this is, I'm watching myself get dismantled in real, I'm watching the death of my career in real life. And then you go, actually, oh, actually, no, this isn't that good. This is very, this is generic and it's formulaic.

Oh, and I see this feels like, a lukewarm, not very interesting pitch that actually is just hobbled together from fragments of... Because it's a bit like the... It doesn't work.

I think so, but I hope so. And I think that we'll always want it. That's the other thing. I think we'll always want that.

How will you know you're talking to a human? That's the problem at the moment. It's because you get, well, at the moment, it's because you get the equivalent of a sort of novelty experience. e-fob that makes four sound effects. When they're rubbish and you're talking to one and it's just going, I'm sorry to hear that you feel that you're cross. Have you tried looking up on our website?

It's a sort of chat bot. That's frustrating. When you've got one But by next year, you'll probably have one that within six minutes, you'll be telling it your deepest, darkest secrets and confiding in it. Because, I mean, they're basically like Eliza, which was the first sort of AI chatbot was this thing, Eliza, wasn't it? That was the 60s, late 60s, something like that.

And it was designed to be a sort of... to just do what a basic psychologist would do. And it would just mirror back what you said to it. And there's a sort of famous anecdote about the guy who created Eliza, asked his secretary to test it out. And within about 20 minutes, she asked him to leave the room because she was telling it things that were private.

And all that was was a very basic bit of code that would go, hello, what's your name? And you'd say, my name's Charlie. And it would say, how are you feeling today? And you'd go, quite sad. And it would go, oh, Charlie, why are you feeling quite sad? And then before you know it, you're regurgitating your soul. And so they'll probably get to that point where you'll pay not to speak to a human.

And you'll be speaking to her. You'll be sharing your deepest secrets with an AI therapist who's available 24 hours a day.

I think you're right, but also like people get shocked when I say I've got like, we've got like an Amazon Alexa device in the house. No, you're right.

No, people often think it's like me in a wooden shack with foil. Yeah, like you say, foil around. Always foil. There's always foil. Always foil. But if I was sitting there, my computers wouldn't work. I'd be so sad. And so, I mean, I wouldn't say... I mean, the problem is I don't think that... I really do worry.

I really worry about... Obviously, in the creative industries, I massively worry about what AI could do, as in terms of it's already a tight time. It's already a challenging environment, you might say, and it could wreak real human havoc very quickly. I can also see why... why it's going to be, do you know what I mean?

Someone's going to do a movie that's using this generate, like when Toy Story came out and it was the first CGI animated cartoon and everyone went, oh, you can do that? Wow. Okay. And it sort of, you know, we didn't lose the art of hand-drawn animation, but it, it meant that the default for animated films became CGI.

It is, I suppose the worry comes when it's all jobs. That's the problem, but it's basically when it's all careers or jobs, or not all careers or jobs, because, again, I have no idea how this stuff will pan out. Do you know what I mean? I don't actually know, but it's how we find –

it's beyond even the financial, obviously the financial impact and how you run like purpose, just what's our, how we find purpose and meaning in what we do. If a lot of what we do is, is, replicated tirelessly by a system. I don't really know what that does to us psychologically.

So I think it's... And again, you could argue, well, maybe I'm only worrying about it now because I'm a writer and I feel like that's under threat. And again, I can see the value in it as a... Like you say, as a tool, I can see the value in... as a tool in a way that an artist would use.

So now it's not an American thing because in Britain. My kids, I remember them. They got taught so much about spelling and phrases. I didn't know what they'd come out and go, I've got to do this homework about trigraphs and digraphs.

I don't know that we are. I think we're probably not being taught all sorts of other things. British history or whatever. But you get my point.

And again, I'm- Well, it seems like a net loss that does, because you're probably, it means that you can, you're not, there'll be people who were held back by the fact that they were dyslexic or they just weren't good at one thing and they were excelled at something else. And now it levels the playing field a little more. So that's a good thing.

But again, I think the problem is that we're sort of trained, we're naturally sort of analysed everything and think, is this good or bad? And the answer is it's kind of both, isn't it? So it's, so again.

A hammer is a powerful, very useful tool. It can also be a terrifying implement of death. Or a knife. A knife. I mean, you could list every tool in that wheelhouse. And the wheel, you know, someone could drive around your house and Hit the door in. So it is.

It's just that it's the pace of it, the dizzying speed with which these things are coming along, I think, is the thing that makes people rightly anxious. But it's also... It is exciting, but it's also... Terrifying at the same time.

It's often a darkly comedic, because one of the, I think... I mentioned the Twilight Zone. I mentioned sort of weird British TV shows. And I think one of the things that, and I've realized recently how much it influenced Black Mirror, Robocop. The 1980, like 87, was it? Like Robocop, the original Robocop.

way ahead of its time. It's a brilliant comedy as well. It's like a really dark comedy in a way that I... I loved it when I was like a teenager. I saw it and wore the VHS out watching it over and over again. And I think a lot of the... Actually, a lot of the comedy sailed over my head. But what I really... The...

sort of the dystopian commodification of everything that was going on, and that was excellently done. I have to say, as a Brit, it was fairly very heavily influenced by Judge Dredd, which was a British comic strip. What do you mean? Dystopian.

Yes. So, but there's always been something, I think at heart, and again, this is not what I sit down thinking when coming up with a Black Mirror story. I don't think this is what I want to write about. It actually, it's looking back, you go, oh, that's what it's about. Almost every episode is about what's real and authentic in some way, you could argue.

Almost every episode we do, ultimately that's it. Whether it's a story where it's people passed into a sort of VR simulation of something or it's... you know, a character who is suddenly having to spout sales pitches in their everyday life. It's kind of always about what's authentic. And that's something that's kind of under assault all the time.

No, we don't. I suppose it's because, again, it's usually, even when we've done stories where there's a hugely, you know, we're taking huge liberties with what is, you know, we're showing things that probably will never quite be possible, or we're showing people kind of uploading their stoles, or, you know. But you kind of always want to keep one foot on the ground. I think that's just my...

personal taste is more the Robocop end of sci-fi than it is the Star Wars end of sci-fi, which is more space opera in a far-flung future. And it's more akin to fantasy. So I'm more sort of that kind of... Oh, this could happen at the end of my street. If things go badly wrong, I tend to respond more to that, I think as a viewer.

And so that's probably why that's where we probably operate most strongly.

It's predominantly me guessing. Basically, it's me guessing or extrapolating, or usually you're not even thinking of technology when you start thinking about it. You're thinking of... something else. And then you realize that you can use, you can give it's all, it would almost be a supernatural story, except you can, give it a sort of technological explanation.

We did an episode last season, we did an episode called Joan is Awful, where it's a woman called Joan, played by Annie Murphy, switches on the TV and sees the streaming platform that's showing a drama, a dramatization of her life starring Salma Hayek. And that's a very Twilight Zone story in many ways. In the Twilight Zone, it would have been like magic or it would have been the uncanny.

We can sort of say it's AI deepfake video. It's that. So you're sort of coming at it from that angle. I probably should go and speak to more sort of tech. Because sometimes there's things like, sometimes there's things where I've put it in the episode thinking I'm being very clever here. And then you realize, oh, it's actually the honeybees. We did an episode in season...

three um called hated in the nation which is where we first had these drone uh autonomous drone miniature honeybees that were going around replaced because i'd read something about honeybees dying out right and um colony collapse and then and and then i thought oh well what if you had little miniature drone ones that could fly around and um pollinate flowers and i thought i was being very clever and then discovered that i think that the experiment had been running for

Well, the most unusual one. Well, there's definitely this. Okay, so there's an episode we did back in season two called Be Right Back, where it's Hayley Atwell and Donald Gleeson, and Hayley plays this woman called Martha whose husband dies in an accident. It's almost a companion piece to Common People this season. Yep. And anyway, she is off a date. She's missing him.

She's discovered she's pregnant. She's desperate to just be able to, if only he knew this, only she could talk to him. She's offered this service, which allows her to communicate with him from, and it's an AI that's based on his social media output. I didn't realize at the time, It felt to me like something that would become possible.

I didn't realize how closely that mimics what large language models and that's now a service.

That's difficult, isn't it?

Because what you're describing there, that's what, that's the, that's the, that sounds like the high-tech equivalent of, it's almost like, it's like when you, you know, you could read the diaries of Samuel Pepys in the sort of whatever century and you get, and suddenly that period of history becomes alive and you feel, because you were hearing somebody's thoughts in the mind.

I can see that he's recounting what happened to him. If you're talking about rebuilt, like Steve Jobs, would you, would the, would he have left enough information behind for you to get his, how he would innovate ideas and how he would create things? I, don't know. I hadn't really thought about the educational uses of that as a platform, but it's quite fascinating.

in their own life. Because what you see very quickly when people talk to chatbots, effectively AIs, is they get attached very quickly. They can become confidants very quickly.

But isn't that a good thing that we're trusting? Isn't that nice about us? Yeah, as long as we're not being taken advantage of, yeah. Well, you don't want to become... Why am I saying you don't want to become too cynical? But it's... So I can... Again, it's... it's interesting that you can, that's interesting.

That's not, that's a use I haven't really thought about, but it's bringing history alive, bringing history alive and bringing and making it personal in a way that that feels to me like that's, yeah, that's, that's interesting. But again, how do you, there's so many things to navigate there and so many ways that could be kind of veer into places you didn't anticipate.

That's the sort of... You see, this is why tech companies, I think... like what you were saying, my, sometimes when, occasionally when I've like spoken at sort of events where there's a bit like my advice, whenever I'm asked, well, what should tech companies do? I think employ comedy writers is my advice.

Employ neurotic comedy writers who are going to horror writers or just dramatic writers, employ them to sit in a room and work out the worst way. What are the worst ways that people write? Yeah. what was the worst that could happen? Because I think often people who, people who just, people who innovate in a different way, they probably have to blank that out when they're, do you know what I mean?

Like on some, like inventors probably have to not think about that too much in order to push forward.

Flesh breaks on the wonderful digital utopia that they will usher in as if we could just shut up and lie down. Right. Let the, let the computer we steamroller just plow all over us. That's kind of losing sight of what the point of it all is, isn't it? Correct.

Yeah, some really great speculative, like, do you know what I mean? Like, just some great sort of, and tied to really patchy stories.

I mean, Jesus. Yes. I do. I think so. But it's – you can't – again, it's like I am not a Luddite. I can't embrace the – I'm not the – like I said, I'm probably a worried centrist when it comes to tech in the future in that I am –

an admirer of technology i'm a i appreciate it i'm awestruck by it i like it i fear it and i fear the consequences of us clumsily misusing it but that's not a reason to not it's It's just really difficult. And the problem is we are, we're living in a, again, we're living through, if the printing press caused all sorts of ruptures, we're living through a sort of accelerated process of that.

But again, it will feel normal. Is it like, it's about how long would you say things have felt dizzyingly futuristic? Yeah.

You've lost it. You haven't got the benefit of hindsight. Well, you haven't got the benefit of wisdom. You're just sort of setting your ways and cranking.

There's a day you wake up one day and that's happened to you.

Like, you know, because, you know, it's like... This is like a Black Mirror concept you're outlining here. It's like one day, it's like you get, I'm sorry. What if you actually know what day it is?

You know what? I've always been, I am that person and I've always been that person. I'm the person who has to get to the airport really, really early.

no you're not no because no because well i think it's because i i used to be a really nervous flyer and it was the one do you mean so i think it's that it's a control the acclimated you needed to get acclimated yeah one late i wanted to yes exactly so i needed to feel like it wasn't suddenly sprung on me that i had to run and and catch a plane but um no so i i again i i think that

It feels like there's a sort of dizzying pace of change, and that's incredibly destabilizing. I have no idea how it's going to pan out. But yes, my kids, I've got a 13-year-old and an 11-year-old, both boys, and they- It's all normal to them. Take all of this in their stride. Yeah, they're totally like-

So they'll be much better at, you hope, this is the thing. So obviously, because the next, it feels like the next thing, apart from AI coming to take all our jobs. Or make a super bad one, like is, you know, a sort of huge wave of sort of misinformation, video, just dividing us even more than we are already, where there's already competing versions of reality.

And those are both now going to have 24-hour visuals to go with them. What do you blame for that? Yeah.

Is it all right to blame everyone or both of them?

I think it's not, because again, it wouldn't, it's, but again, will that mean that the next generation will it mean just that what happens when, because at the same time, also you're seeing videos where, you know, someone could, you could see a video where somebody turned into a plate of spaghetti and meatballs sort of thing.

So, you know, that things can be like, it can be surreal and strange, but completely photographically convincing, but you know, it couldn't have. So, so will the next generation just learn to not trust anything at all?

How do they stay sane on a local basis?

That's terrifying, and I don't know... I don't know how that isn't... I hate to say likely, but I don't know how that...

Well, and there's already a lot of people who believe we're already there and that everything is a lie and that everything... So, yeah, I don't... No, that worries me. If there's no consensus on what is real or has been real, how do we cope with giant climate problems that are going to come our way? How do we cope with when there's a big problem?

You know, like I say, I'm an anxious sort of... I can be an anxious apocalyptic worrier. When the pandemic happened, I was sort of comparatively calm because... I thought we were handling it quite well.

Well, we all had a reclusive life.

That side of things was that we were all worried, and we all... You know, generally speaking, people were, it felt, looking out for each other. You had the young staying indoors to protect the elderly. You had sort of, you know, you had actually more. And there were some cranky people about it.

It's, it's, it's, but it's, it's, it's, so in a way.

In a way it was sort of like, it wasn't that it wasn't, you know what I mean? We, we, we, so you'd sort of hope that we, when Facebook, because we are, again, I'm not the voice of optimism, but you know, we are pretty incredible people. creatures.

We're so resilient. So we're just going to have to navigate that world. And so how we... I don't know how we counter... How we counter a sort of cynical destruction of all sort of consensus on what reality is, I don't know. You sort of have to hope that we won't just end up tearing each other's flesh and fighting in the streets sort of thing. You have to hope that.

And again, we didn't do... The pandemic could have been... Get load worse than we could have behaved in a much more venal way.

Well, no, I think, well, no, don't get me wrong. I like, I can absolutely have total moments of complete and utter staring into the abyss sort of to awake at 4am. Right. You know, the sort of carnival of horrible thoughts going through your head and you worry desperately about your children and you worry desperately about the future and where are things going? So I can absolutely do all of that.

And, and, And oddly, the more of us who are worried, the better. Oh, I agree. I agree with that. I think that was the thing with the pandemic that really struck me was I was one of these people who, as soon as the first reports, I remember I was on holiday over Christmas when that happened. There were reports of like, there's something going around. There's a virus.

There's something, respiratory illness in China and blah, blah, blah. And I thought, that's going to come. That's going to sweep. We're going to get that. I don't like the look of that. And I was really worried about it. At the point when everyone was worried about it, I can kind of...

the dread in me drops a little because there's nothing more scary than thinking everyone else is being blasé and complacent about something that's worrying you. It's the wasp at the picnic that no one else is... I'm the one who can't relax if there's one wasp at the picnic. And if everyone's worried about the wasp, you move the bloody picnic blanket somewhere else or someone catches it in a glass.

And so you kind of have to hope that our survival instinct will... realize that we need more of us we need as many of us as possible to survive and that i don't know i don't know i don't know um are you uh are you gonna is this is this uh ever stop in your head do you think you'll always be show or this show the world um the i would i'd like to think it's something that can keep

can keep morphing, can keep... We've done... We keep... You know, I keep changing... I keep doing different types of episodes. We've done a sequel for the first time. We've done an interactive one a few years ago. You can do sort of feature-length ones and short ones. So I kind of think it's something that can be oddly... that can be very reactive to... what's going on.

Hopefully it's a weird, it's like I said, it's a very odd show to do. I'm aware that also it's a bit like being in a band where we did a load of punk singles early on. And so you get some sort of fans who just want you to do punk singles, but we also did some that are a bit more like big love ballads or something that were also really popular. And so now you're kind of trying to, so I have to not,

I think my mental trick is to not think too much about what fans of the show expect and just write and write what I'm interested in.

We have. Because we don't tend to have the same characters from episode to episode. We have less of that in that people don't, like, usually, our characters are absolutely broken by the time the credits roll. So people don't quite... It's a different dynamic, I guess, from on a big, you know, like Game of Thrones or, you know, like some huge show like that.

As long as people will... as long as I can keep coming up with ideas and people keep wanting to look at them.

And as long as I don't get out-competed by some AI, as long as they're not just staring into some holographic box in a few years, like just shouting, and that's just staring at them and looking at their facial expression and thinking, here's an image you'll like to see for the next two seconds.

And they're just sort of seeing some kind of constant deep fake three-dimensional TikTok that's being blasted at them. which is probably 95% certain to happen.

Well, again, we did this thing, we did this thing, yeah, in the Common People episode, like Chris O'Dowd's character, Mike, has to pay, he has to try and pay for the subscription by kind of debasing himself on this online platform.

Yeah.

That's very cynical, but probably accurate.

Oh, yeah.

Yes. It was like a moonshot. It was like having to come up with ballpoint pens. And everybody had to come up with... Asteroids needed to be right in space. So... Yeah. And it made, yeah, it made all sorts of things. It was a big, but also I don't think we still unpacked actually psychologically what it did to us all.

No, we're a bit better than... Again, it's like... The thing that struck me was how the number of times you'd see, and I've written a zombie movie where it's like, you know, society collapses within 20 minutes of this sort of calamity. And that isn't what happened. Like in the pandemic scenario, that isn't what happened.

We were out in Britain, we were out banging saucepans every Thursday in support of the NHS. Although I did read somebody was saying, I think that was actually us banging the saucepans to sort of let other people know we were still there, which made me quite sad. When I read that, it was probably a more accurate read.

I hope so. I hope we'll always want messy humans in our creative soup. I don't know if that analogy makes sense, but that's what I've said.

Good. Oh, thank you very much. Thank you, sir. That's very kind. Well, there you go.